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JOINT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND CHILDREN debate -
Tuesday, 15 May 2012

Children First Bill 2012: Discussion (Resumed)

This is our fourth meeting of this series. Today I welcome Ms Irene Gunning, chief executive officer, Early Childhood Ireland, Ms Ciairín de Buis, director, Start Strong, and Ms Patricia Murray, chief executive officer, Childminding Ireland.

As I said before we went into public session, we have received 50 written submissions at the close of the deadline last Friday. That is a substantial amount of correspondence and I thank all of the groups for submitting their thoughts and opinions in writing. We look forward to analysing them as part of our process of engagement with the Minister. We are privileged that she has given the committee the opportunity to make a direct input, including that of the groups, on the heads of the Bill. This is all part of a process that will conclude with the publication of legislation.

I remind those present that witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give to the committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person or persons or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice or, ruling of the Chair, to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Apologies have been received from Deputies Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin and Charlie McConalogue who are in the House to table questions to the Department of Children and Youth Affairs. I welcome Deputy Sandra McLellan who replaces Deputy Ó Caoláin today. I invite Ms Gunning to make her presentation.

Ms Irene Gunning

I am delighted to have been asked to make this presentation on behalf of Early Childhood Ireland.

Early Childhood Ireland welcomes the heads of the Children First Bill 2012 and values this opportunity to make a submission at this early stage. As a membership-based organisation with 3,200 affiliates providing care and education across pre-schools, playgroups and in full day care and after-school settings to nearly 70,000 children daily, we wish to help shape the legislation and to ensure that it is robust, fit-for-purpose and provides children and adults with a responsive and dependable system that will create a climate of confidence.

The organisation came about as a result of the recent merger of the Irish Preschool Play Association, IPPA, and the National Children's Nurseries Association, NCNA. It has long advocated for a greater visibility of children within the Constitution and for access to training and supports for those adults who work with children and families. The legacy of failure in protecting children highlights issues of capability and credibility. The proposed Children First Bill offers an opportunity to regain confidence in the system and to ensure a child's right to protection.

Our written submission contains many factors that have been outlined in full and today I will offer a quick snapshot or profile of the sector. While acknowledging the heads of the Bill we must take into consideration the context in which early childhood care and education services operate. The current context is challenging and demanding. The formal early childhood care and education sector comprises 4,600 services that are notified to the HSE, of whom 70% are affiliated to my organisation. These services provide private and community services, full day care and sessional services, such as Montessori and playgroups, from birth up to 12 years.

At present our members work within the system to process Garda vetting for each of their employees or volunteers, as appropriate. They notify the HSE of their operations and are subject to inspections by the HSE, NERA and Pobal. Whether operating in a private or community setting, there are significant policy and legislative requirements placed on these small services and small businesses. Senior managers undertake an additional 12 hours per week at least, and outside of their daily contact with children, to do their administrative work. It revolves around funding schemes, human resources and finance and they have no additional remuneration for that work. Our members have emphasised the frustration that service providers experience in trying to access Children First training for staff. In total, 52% of the respondents to our survey last year indicated that they were unable to access Children First training in the previous year. Practitioners and services work to maintain and centralise the best interests of the child but they require training and support.

I would like to locate the child. Fundamental to our work in Early Childhood Ireland services are the views and images that adults hold about children. There are many ways of depicting children and childhood and they all have political implications for children in any society. In the past we, as a society, believed to our detriment that children should be seen and not heard, to spare the rod would spoil a child and that the pain of childhood would be forgotten in adulthood. This deficit stance portrayed the child as dependent, needy, voiceless and passive. Children were viewed as less than human. It is important and essential that our new policies and legislation reflect a more contemporary view of children. It is imperative that children are viewed as rich in potential, strong, powerful, competent and most of all connected to adults and other children. These values must underpin all relations with children and child protection work.

Early Children Ireland places the child at its centre and it is the child that informs our thinking. That is the first strong point that we want to make and it is contained in our written submission. I do not know whether I should read them all to the committee but we strongly recommend that future policies and legislation that emerge from this consultative process should position the child at its centre. The committee should feel it, see it, hear it and read that in the legislation. I do not know if we have managed to take on board a contemporary view of children. I have not seen it in the legislation but I would like to. I want to see a more holistic view of the children.

The position of the adult is also important. Relationships are crucial and vital to understanding and is perhaps the most attractive aspect of the caring and learning process that we are engaged in. The adult who engages with the child as a volunteer or in a paid capacity, regardless of the setting, is absolutely key to providing a safe and secure environment - safe child, safe adult; secure child, secure adult. They work hand in hand. The child learns and develops within and through relationships; in other words, the child needs the secure and consistent presence of adults. Learning to be in healthy relationships provides a lifelong benchmark for young children in recognising healthy and unhealthy contexts. In being picked up and cuddled, in sitting on an adult's lap listening to a story, in being helped to self-manage in toilet and washing, the child experiences care and education, a sense of trust and of being valued. To provide secure environments, adults must be confident in their practices and secure in the ways they respond to and work with young children. Early Childhood Ireland recognises that work with young children must be underpinned by qualifications, training and access to support and continuing professional development.

With regard to constructing the system in which we work, the Bill provides a tangible opportunity to build a connected system. Under the weight of scandals, reports and insufficient investment, our current system of child protection lacks credibility and reliability. Like scaffolding, a system of child protection must be robust and secure; capable of dealing with volume; provide coverage so that it is inclusive; connected in that all bodies and agencies are linked and listening; and provide some flexibility without interfering with the integrity of the structure of daily life.

The birth rate is increasing, and the number of children eligible for the early childhood care and education scheme, which covers the three to four year old age group, is also increasing. The number of children coming into our services is definitely increasing . A recent article in The Irish Times by Helen Buckley suggested that where reporting legislation has been implemented, one in every four or five children in the population is reported. When this is applied across the number of children in the services, it would equate to over 13,000 being reported to the services. We need a world class system to deal with that. In our written submission, I have outlined how that system might look.

A number of issues arise from the heads of the Children First Bill. On policy alignment, we would urge clarity in the use of language. Emotional abuse, for example, is categorised in one document but not in another, while ways of reporting are stated to be by telephone in one document but in writing in another. The role of the designated officer must be clearer because there is confusion between documents, and there is strong overlap and duplication of information required. We propose that the new system must ensure that the child care regulations of 2006, the forthcoming Garda vetting bureau Bill, the Children First national guidance of 2011, the Data Protection Acts and the Children First Bill must be coherent and speak uniformly across all documents.

On the scope of the Bill, the protection must be for all children. Childminding is a very important part of the Irish early childhood care and education sector. Figures from the Central Statistics Office identify the most prevalent form of child care for preschool children as being crèche, Montessori or playgroup at 19%, with childminders, au pairs or nannies at 12%. They must be included, but the Bill has omitted them. While the numbers attending childminders remained static in the period 2002 to 2007, it is assumed that the levels of childminding have increased in recent times. At our conference in April 2012, Dr. Jan Peeters from the University of Ghent talked about the situation in Belgium. As in Ireland, childminding is a huge informal sector. From research he conducted with his colleagues, Dr. Peeters found that life patterns are changing and that childminders are becoming a more transient group, staying in the sector for fewer years than previously. There is greater turnover of childminders. Belgium requires 1,000 new childminders annually to replace those who are leaving. This larger turnover rate has resulted in a significant increase of child protection issues. This is coming down the track for us as well. We must take note of these things because all children need protection.

School age and out-of-school services currently operate outside of regulation. To better understand their scope and remit, data are currently being collated on numbers and patterns of usage on a county by county basis. Parents rely on out-of-school services for peace of mind to participate in the labour force. The Bill is a wonderful opportunity to take out-of-school services into consideration. All children deserve protection and we have no option but to include all those working directly with young children and youth under the remit of the Bill.

With regard to staff, the Bill includes preschool or full day care staff with a HETAC level 7 award as mandated professionals in Schedule I. The purpose of this inclusion is unclear. We have tried to figure out what it means. HETAC level 7 is not currently a required or uniform qualification across senior posts within schools and crèches. The FETAC level 5 is the most common qualification in the sector. We suggest that this category should be renamed or reclassified as "early childhood care and education professionals, not covered under Schedule I".

The definition of "organisation" places a significant weight of responsibility and consequences for failing to meet the requirements across all organisational types, irrespective of their size or capacity. I have already spoken about the demands and challenges within the sector on owners, managers and supervisors. This would mean additional pressure and extra work for services. Under the proposed draft heads of the Bill, the organisation - frequently this person will also be the designated officer - will now have an additional role with significant responsibilities carrying penalties for failures to comply. A small preschool service with four staff members, for example, will now be required to provide training for employees and volunteers without any additional resources, carry out annual audits and establish an internal audit committee. This will be difficult. The definition of "organisation" could be reorganised to allow for a body such as Early Childhood Ireland to be the designated organisation. The definition should be broadened and there should be systems of support in place.

The designated officer is conceptualised as the most senior person in the organisation. Many of these small services are run by the owners and they tend to be the most senior person, so the organisation and designated officer will be the same person. Approximately 15% of our services are run by voluntary boards of management. I mention this to discuss the penalties. Without supports, these services will be criminalised for failure to meet the requirements. This is about thinking about the role of dedicated officer and the support that designated officers and others working with children need to implement the regulations. A national, established and creditable organisation such as ours which provides training from levels 4 to 8 will be able to support people in some of the new functions they will be expected to carry out. Although there is much to be welcomed in the proposed Bill, we can think further about the protection and safeguarding of children.

I thank Ms Gunning for her presentation and her strong recommendations and commentary on the heads of the Bill in the appendix to her script. I call on Ms Ciairín de Buis to make a presentation on behalf of Start Strong.

Ms Ciairín de Buis

I thank the Chairman for the invitation to address the committee. We very much welcome the approach being taken to allow for input at meetings of the committee and to make written submissions. Start Strong made a written submission and my speaking notes have also been circulated. Start Strong is a coalition of organisations and individuals committed to advancing high-quality care and education. Our approach is grounded in children's rights and our specific policy focus, on which my comments today will be focused, is on children's early years.

It is taken as given, but is no harm for me to state, we very much warmly welcome the decision to put Children First on a statutory footing. We also appreciate the determination to make the legislation comprehensive. There is much to be welcomed in the Bill. Today I will highlight one or two omissions, or what we see as shortcomings, to try to ensure we have the most robust child protection legislation developed in a way to help develop a stronger culture of child protection and welfare in Ireland. I agree with the other witnesses who have and, I am sure will, state the Bill contains many onerous responsibilities for organisations and individuals. However, if we entrust the care and education of our young children to such organisations and individuals they need to be able to take on these responsibilities.

One of our concerns which I will highlight today is that all children, regardless of the type of early year setting in which they are, should have the same protection provided by the legislation. We have two concerns regarding these settings, both relevant to Schedule 1 with regard to the professionals statutorily charged with reporting child abuse. We firmly believe children cared for by childminders should have the same protection afforded by the legislation as those attending any other preschool service. Those of us working in early child care tend to assume everyone understands our terminology and the context. CSO figures indicate approximately 75,000 children are cared for by childminders and some would estimate the number to be higher. This is a large cohort of children.

Generally, childminders care for children in a domestic setting, normally in the childminder's own home; care for more than one child; are self-employed; and work on their own in what can be an isolated role. For most childminders there is no requirement to be notified or registered, to be Garda vetted or to have basic training. Many do undergo such training but there is no requirement to do so. Childminders can care for children for long hours, often all day, with little or no supervision or support. In this context we have major concerns about this lack of regulation and the absence of requirements for Garda vetting. The flipside of this is that we are very aware that childminders, as individuals who have close frequent contact with children and their families, play a very large and active role in children's daily lives. As childminders and professional educators they are well placed to identify concerns about children's welfare and protection.

I understand some childminders can fall within the framework of the proposed legislation. These are termed "notified childminders". However, this is a very small group. To put it in context, it is estimated that approximately 30,000 childminders operate in Ireland with almost 24,000 of them caring for preschool children. However, less than 300 childminders were notified to the HSE last year. We understand this to be the only category of childminder in the framework of the proposed legislation.

The Bill is careful to exclude childminders employed directly in the home of the parent or child. We understand the rationale for this but the exclusion should not extend to the vast majority of childminders, namely, those who are self-employed professionals who work in their own homes. Often, they provide a service which is in many ways comparable to a centre-based service. We are concerned because childminders do not fall within the definition or terminology of organisations and they are not designated professionals in schedule 1 of the Bill.

It is already Government policy that all childminders should participate in training and implement child protection policies, specifically Children First. The national guidelines for childminders recommend that childminders should be familiar with the most up-to-date child protection policy by participating in training and ensuring this policy is put into practice in accordance with the Children First national guidelines. We suggest these guidelines and the proposed legislation need to be aligned to ensure all children have the same level of protection regardless of their child care or education setting.

In highlighting this issue we are conscious of putting forward a solution. The most straightforward way would be to ensure childminders are included in the designated professionals under Schedule 1. We suggest a broad definition be used. We have examined the definitions of "childminder" used in other jurisdictions and we suggest it should be "someone who looks after one or more children on domestic premises for reward". This would mean grandparents and relatives would be excluded but any professional childminders, regardless of whether they are full-time or part-time, provide after-school care, are notified to the HSE or engaged with their local county child care committee would fall within the framework of the legislation.

We are also concerned about the FETAC level 7 requirement, about which Ms Gunning spoke. We do not understand why reference is made to FETAC level 7 awards. We do not see any reason for limiting the provision to those with FETAC level 7. The standard requirement of the Department of Children and Youth Affairs, which was introduced as part of the free preschool year scheme, is FETAC level 5, which is seen as the basic qualification for professional status among preschool and crèche staff. Do not get me wrong, as an organisation Start Strong looks forward to when FETAC level 7 is regarded as the basic qualification, but we are not there yet and we are quite some time away from it. We suggest this area of the legislation needs to be revisited. All early years educators need to be encompassed within the Bill to ensure that all children are afforded the same protection. We welcome the publication of the Bill, which represents a major step forward. In highlighting particular shortcomings, we do so to try to ensure we have the most robust legislation. We also do it in a way we believe is relatively straightforward so that it would strengthen the legislation and foster a change in culture which the Bill seeks to achieve.

I thank the members of the committee for the opportunity to present to them today and wish them well in their work.

I thank Ms de Buis for her very informative presentation.

Ms Patricia Murray

Childminding Ireland is the national representative membership-based organisation for childminders of whom there are 30,000. I will not repeat what Ms Gunning and Ms de Buis have so eloquently said. I am here to let members know that childminders are not trying to hide. I thank the Chairman for the invitation to present.

Childminding is still the largest non-family home-based care for preschool children and particularly babies. Some childminders are providing the free preschool year if they have the qualification. An estimated 100,000 babies, preschool and school-age children are in this solitary isolated situation. I will come to other solitary isolated situations where I know that there has been child abuse. We will be asking for those to be included unequivocally in the provisions of this very welcome child protection legislation. I will try to skip the aspects my colleagues have already dealt with forcefully.

In welcoming the legislation I emphasise the need to get rid of guidance. Those who would harm a child or those who would fail to prevent harm to a child or those who would not report or tell anybody about harm to a child will not be persuaded by guidance. I want the legislation to be robust, clear and fit for purpose. It needs to do what it says on the packet. We do not want any guidance from anywhere about it except in the regulations that come under it and the training listed in the Bill. Those two things will give guidance to anybody who needs it.

Childminding Ireland, as a member of the Children's Rights Alliance, endorses the points made when that organisation presented to the committee previously. I did not believe it was necessary to make an individual submission because I knew the Children's Rights Alliance had already indicated robustly that individuals - childminders for one - needed to be included in the Bill.

I do not have any legal expertise but I ploughed through the heads of the Bill because I thought that if it was not clear to me it would not be clear to a 14-year old who should know this legislation is in place. The title needs to be reconsidered. "Children First" is not appropriate but the "Protection and Welfare of Children" Act might mean something. I would like a more robust title for the legislation.

I worry about the commencement. Significant additional work will be required of the HSE or whatever form that body will take. I do not know how we will get around the delay in implementation. I know we have resource issues and everything else. I wish that the legislation could be tied in with the Criminal Justice (Withholding of Information on Offences Against Children and Vulnerable Persons) Bill. Both should be aligned in requirements and penalties.

While agreeing with the Children's Rights Alliance submission on emotional abuse and while that can be subjective, the definition of neglect could be expanded so that it would better capture neglecting a child to include humiliating or not affirming a child is there. I refer members back to Ms Gunning's passionate call that children are in this Bill so that we can see children, their needs and their little developing hearts in this. We need terms like "attachment" and "affection" but something else should be included to capture the emotional abuse.

When the Bill becomes an Act - the sooner the better - it should be framed in such a way as to provide any guidance required and the training involved should support that. The Bill at head 6 requires training for designated officers which would afford them all the guidance they need for that role. This is not rocket science. When one sees a child who has clearly been neglected and is not thriving or when one sees a child who tells one that something awful has happened to him or her, it is not rocket science to know that one must go somewhere and do something about that.

Head 5(4) should entitle a person to make a report of a concern of any level of risk, in good faith obviously protected by the Protection for Persons Reporting Child Abuse Act 1998. However, head 5(5) appears to allow only perceived low-risk concerns to be reported without reference to guidelines. Guidelines should be got rid of - they have no place in legislation. We have had guidelines for 20 years and we have chaos in our child protection systems. We do not need them. We need legislation backed up by clear regulations with training and implementation resources. Individuals must be required to participate in the Bill.

From my reading, people need to make themselves known to the HSE if they are taking children under their wing for any reason. Following making themselves known to the HSE they need to be Garda vetted and must have certain policies and procedures in place. While these robust policies and procedures, training and vetting within organisations send a clear message to children, parents and to those who would harm or neglect a child, that compliance will become the culture in organisations concerned with children, individuals must be considered. We know who the individuals who harm children are. They are people such as individual contractors who offer dancing, swimming lessons, etc. We do not know individuals who offer those services to children, including childminders, bus drivers and even guardians ad litem. I do not believe such people should be named in a schedule. We would be better off with no schedule. We should include a simple definition such as specifying that anyone who undertakes to carry out a service for children, particularly anyone with unsupervised direct access to children, is subject to the provisions of the Bill or otherwise we will leave loopholes. People could claim they did not know they had to be notified because the category to which they belong was not listed in the schedule. The Bill should have a clear definition of people who have unsupervised access to children - not in a Schedule or anywhere else - and have it as clear as day.

If making requirements for individuals, some tweaking would be required on the otherwise robust head 7. An individual cannot have a triumvirate committee guiding him or her to appoint designated officers and everything else. Head 9 does not seem to specify that designated officers are required to be vetted. Anybody who would harm a child would immediately volunteer to be a designated officer.

Head 12 comes back to guidance. While I hate to say it, guidance coming from the HSE would certainly lack credibility and would be unnecessary, for example, if there was some kind of template for producing the Keeping Children Safe plan. HIQA is to set the national standards for the protection and welfare of children - which is clear as a bell and is not called "Children First" or anything else. That should be published for all organisations and - hopefully - individuals. That is preferable to having guidance from the HSE, the Minister's office and more guidance from somewhere else.

The HIQA national standards tell children, parents and those who would harm a child what they can expect from the protections and the strength of this Bill. The training is defined under head 12 but there is nothing about the content or level of the training. Perhaps it will be elaborated in regulations but the legislation should state "training to enable somebody understand the requirements" or something to that effect. The word "training" is not enough. Head 13 refers to the HSE monitoring and dealing with reports. This head is not robust; I cannot see how it is. Children are protected best where there is a speedy evaluation of risk based on the report; effective prioritisation and a response or intervention appropriate to the level of that risk; and ongoing shared concern with appropriate persons surrounding the child, including the person making the report. I am talking about if it is appropriate. It is not about the yellow form being filled in and gone, so the matter is done and dusted. It is ongoing shared concern that protects children.

For that reason, this head should include an obligation on the HSE and-or the Garda to be permitted, if not required, to advise the person who reported the concern of what action was taken or otherwise. That is important. We have seen evidence of where that did not happen, where a man thought he had made a report and that it was being dealt with, but it was not. Under current practice, neither the Garda nor the HSE will discuss the matter if one rings up to ask if they received the yellow form. They are not obliged even to confirm that it is on file and is being dealt with.

Head 15 refers to what I said about guidance, so I will not repeat it. Under head 17, it is not clear that where the HSE has information that a crime may have been committed, it is obliged to report it to the Garda. Will that be in the Bill brought forward by the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter? I am not sure, but it is certainly not clear in this Bill.

Head 18 refers to data protection. It would be in the best interests of the child if the sharing of information concerning him or her was restricted in law to those persons, statutory and non-statutory, whose knowledge of the events is essential to prevent further risk or harm to that child or other children. That ties in with what I said previously, that where a person makes a report to the HSE, the HSE can tell the person that it is none of their business whether it did anything about it. The data protection must be aligned. In other words, it should guard the child's privacy and right to privacy but the people who have been concerned are entitled to continue their concern.

Thank you, Chairman, and I am sorry for taking so long.

Thank you for an informative and challenging presentation. I call Senator van Turnhout.

I thank the representatives of the organisations. I am in the unusual position of being the first of the Opposition to proceed. Many of the issues I will raise are ones that Deputy McConalogue and Deputy Ó Caoláin would raise. Indeed, all members of the committee have raised them at each committee hearing.

I support Ms Gunning's contention on the location of the child. What she said about FETAC level 7 was very interesting, given the sector she represents. Nobody has raised that with us yet, so we will have to look at it again. On the aligning of legislation, both Ministers are very conscious of this but there are issues. Hopefully, the committee can influence how that proceeds. Ms de Buis spoke about the onerous responsibilities placed on organisations in the Bill, and rightly so. In response to Ms Murray, the committee has been teasing out how we can ensure there is an onus of responsibility on the HSE to respond also and to ensure that the balance is not just one way.

I am very heartened to hear the definition put forward for childminders. It is useful. I am a little worried about the phrase "for reward", that it makes the definition too wide. When members of the interdepartmental group appeared before the committee several of us asked why childminders were excluded. We were told, if memory serves, that often family members or people known to the family are employed as childminders. They are given money but there is a different type of relationship with the family. On that basis it was proposed that they be excluded. My instinct did not want them to be excluded. The "for reward" part of the definition put forward might make the definition too wide. Do the witnesses have any further thoughts on how we could define it?

The witnesses discussed the role of the designated officer. One of the issues the committee is trying to probe is the balancing of that role between the individual and the organisation, the responsibility it has and how it will work in practice. Under the Bill the designated officer can delegate that role, but how much confusion will that lead to as regards responsibility and who should take action? I am particularly interested given the number of childminders or early childhood settings. One could have an owner or manager running a facility. Whether they are directly involved in running it or are more distant from it, it will be interesting to see how that will work.

One or two of the witnesses raised emotional abuse. The advice we received from the interdepartmental group is that it is difficult to prove emotional abuse in court. I believe all definitions should be consistent. Personally, I believe emotional abuse should be included in the definition but I must listen to the professionals' arguments. Have the witnesses had experience of a child being in a situation where emotional abuse would be the primary abuse issue?

Finally, a question that has arisen in some of our previous hearings is the exclusion of leisure facilities under head 6. One of the witnesses mentioned children going for dance or swimming lessons. In their experience, do they use other facilities that will be excluded in this legislation?

I thank the witnesses for their contributions. I have some questions on the issue of childminders. We had some discussions on it last week with the interdepartmental group. I am struck by the sheer number of childminders. Why are so few notified to the health board? What must we do to rectify that?

Can Ms Gunning say what her organisation and its affiliated members currently do about child protection? The Children First guidelines have been in place for a number of years and we are simply putting them on a statutory basis, in my idealistic view. Early Childhood Ireland and Start Strong represent a conglomerate of early childhood settings that have been working with young children for many years. What is the current practice? How will that significantly change because of the proposed legislation? I understand and welcome the suggestion that we re-examine the definition of organisation. Where individuals are operating in a rural area, for example, they should be able to pick up the telephone and get guidance and support from an organisation such as those represented here. However, what is the current practice in early year settings if somebody has a suspicion related to child protection?

I, too, read the article in The Irish Times by Helen Buckley. I think she was saying not that one in four would present with a child protection issue but that people will go into default mode, probably because of fear, and make a report. However, that does not necessarily mean one in four children will be children at risk. It is a false positive, as it were. I do not wish the public to think that somehow we are missing something. We probably could do a great deal better than we are at present, but the message should not be sent from this meeting that under this legislation there will suddenly be a hugely significant increase in the number of cases where it is actually proven. That is where the training element arises. The witness is correct that people know in their gut if something is wrong. I am a firm believer that all of us, not just organisations, have a responsibility with regard to child protection and ensuring children are kept safe and well. I would welcome a response to some of these issues.

I welcome the witnesses and thank them for speaking with such obvious passion, as their dedication to their particular professions comes across clearly. I have two questions, one of which is for Ms Irene Gunning, while the other is for Ms Patricia Murray. Deputy Conway has just brought up the point that Ms Gunning's part of the industry already is regulated by the HSE. Therefore, am I correct in stating the guidelines, which have been in place for donkeys' years, are already being adhered to in that sector and all the standard practices, which are not necessarily on a legal basis at present, are currently being employed by child care facilities throughout the country?

My second question is for Ms Murray. I am not blown away by the number of people who call themselves independent childminders because this happens in every village. One can see hundreds of women going to school every day, which is grand. Moreover, it is clear they are not all registered with Ms Murray's organisation and they certainly are not registered with the HSE. I agree with Ms Murray that they should be included in this legislation. However, were they to be so included, how would one know whether Mrs. Murphy from up the road was minding two kids other than people seeing her at the school with children known to be someone else's? As it already is difficult to know with definition who such people are, how can one control, manage and monitor them? I believe the reason most of them are not registered is because they get a few bob weekly from their daughters, their Aunt Nellie or their neighbours, which they stick in their back pockets. While I do not have a view either way in this regard, if this is the reason such people are not declaring themselves, the position will not change on the enactment of this legislation. What advice can Ms Murray give members on such a scenario?

Ms Irene Gunning

On the issue of current practices, the HSE is responsible for the training and only the training from the HSE is considered valid. At present, more than 52% of our members have told us they cannot access it.

What it is the reason for that?

Ms Irene Gunning

Because of the moratorium and because the HSE cannot get everywhere. It cannot manage to get the training out there.

It insists one must undergo the training that is not available to be done.

Does Ms Gunning refer to 50% of new participants?

Ms Irene Gunning

No, the figure is for our members.

Does this mean people who have worked in the system for ten or 15 years have never undergone child protection training?

Ms Irene Gunning

Yes. In certain areas and pockets, it is quite strong. The HSE disagrees with us in respect of some of these figures and we differ about them. However, this is what our members have told us about it.

Is training available?

Ms Irene Gunning

That is the point, as training is not available. It is meant to be available free to services within their respective HSE areas.

Ms Gunning's point is there is no uniformity of practice.

Ms Irene Gunning

No, there is no uniformity of practice.

It is dependent upon each HSE area.

Ms Irene Gunning

Exactly. It varies across the country.

I apologise for interrupting but I am flabbergasted.

Does anyone have a mobile telephone switched on? I note there is a buzzing sound in the system. Deputy Regina Doherty may proceed.

For example, were I to own a crèche in my home village of Ratoath - obviously I do not - and were I to approach the HSE to state that while I had not registered previously, I now wished to so do, what would happen?

Ms Irene Gunning

In that case, the Deputy would notify. There is a difference between notification and registering. One would notify the HSE, which is a very different thing to registration. While we would like registration, it is not possible in Ireland in the absence of a board of workers with qualifications such as,for example, with An Bord Altranais, as people do not have the professional qualifications. As Ms Ciairín de Buis pointed out, a lot of the sector has now attained FETAC level 5. However, that equates to one year of post-leaving certificate education, which is not where one wishes to be when one has a world-class system. We seek a graduate-led sector. Consequently, we cannot register, as we discovered years ago on foot of the establishment of the expert working group - I am unsure whether the Deputy remembers it. The child care strategy and the European equal opportunities childcare programme, EOCP, followed from it but as we discovered at that time, registration was not possible on those grounds. Qualifications are being built in the sector. While not everyone has a FETAC level 5 qualification, at this point almost everyone does. One notifies the HSE, which will then come and inspect one's facility. It will not automatically acknowledge one's existence and provide training. One must ask for such training and one's inspection will take place if one happens to be in an area in which there are inspectors. I know of places in Dublin in which five years have passed without an inspection.

I make the point they are public health nurses, as opposed to child care professionals.

Ms Irene Gunning

The people doing the inspections-----

Consequently, it is a medical approach, as opposed to a child-centred approach.

Ms Irene Gunning

Yes, we undergo two kinds of inspections. There are environmental health officer, EHO, inspections, as well as inspections by public health nurses, which are highly medically-orientated. That is another story and we would have a lot to say about the kinds of inspections we undergo. However, one notifies and then one imagines that such things would come into play.

Two years ago, when we met the then Minister of State with responsibility for children, Barry Andrews, we took the opportunity to raise the issue of child protection training, which is what the Deputy asked me about. He thought it would be a good idea for us to follow up and we did so with a quite lengthy letter and a form of submission. It made a case that an organisation such as Early Childhood Ireland could do some of this training because within the FETAC national awarding system, we are Q-marked trainers. We could do this in a holistic way because we could ensure the adults ticked the box with regard to their qualifications in respect of the awarding body and could meet their needs and obligations as adults who have child protection training in their services. Matters progressed very slowly and about a year later, we had a meeting with the HSE. Many things were going to happen and as members are aware, the new child and family support agency is being established. However, that is all that has happened. It has been mentioned a couple of times at a very high level at the national child care co-ordinating committee, but that is it. Nothing is happening about that.

I apologise for stressing the point but to clarify, is Ms Gunning stating that in the two years since her organisation informed the then Minister of State, Barry Andrews, that more than 50% of the industry had not received child protection training from the HSE, nothing has happened?

Ms Irene Gunning

We followed it up-----

I did not mean from Ms Gunning's perspective but from that of the HSE.

Ms Irene Gunning

We followed it up with the current Minister. We put all that stuff back into the system again, which jiggled it all a little, in so far as there was a meeting or two.

Ms Irene Gunning

About a year ago but nothing since.

Is Ms Gunning telling members that no training is being provided and nothing at all is happening?

Ms Irene Gunning

Some training is being provided-----

But clearly not enough.

Ms Irene Gunning

----- but not enough.

A lot of members are shocked by this point. Has the HSE provided a reason for its refusal to accredit Early Childhood Ireland for this purpose? I missed last week's meeting with the Irish Sports Council but from engaging with my own community at home and on foot of having being involved with a ladies' football team, I attended a child protection training course run by the sports partnership. The designated officers were given the training free of charge by the local sports partnerships. Is Ms Gunning stating that no similar system is in place in the early childhood sector?

Ms Irene Gunning

No, the HSE does all the training.

Or rather, does not.

Ms Irene Gunning

It offers the only training that is valid. We could train and have written modules in this area based on the Children First guidelines and our documents. While we could offer training, it would not be acceptable to the HSE.

I revert for a second to the point Deputy Conway has made with regard to the local sports partnership. I presume internal training is provided within Cumann Lúthchleas Gael, which appeared before the joint committee last week with the other sporting bodies. Is Ms Gunning saying - I apologise in advance if I have misunderstood her - that Early Childhood Ireland does not provide training because it is not accredited?

Ms Irene Gunning

No. We are currently in discussions, which are moving very slowly, in regard to our becoming trainers.

Has Early Childhood Ireland offered to become a training body?

Ms Irene Gunning

Yes.

Why is the GAA accredited as a trainer when Early Childhood Ireland is not?

Ms Irene Gunning

The HSE first wants a trainer of trainers, followed by direct training. I am not sure whether the Senator is speaking about implementation training or training of trainers. For us to be accredited as trainers in this area, the HSE wants us to engage in training for trainers so that we, in turn, can train our trainers who are qualified trainers in all other areas. That is the desire of the HSE. However, that has not progressed.

There is a vote in the Seanad.

Is the HSE linking this to the provision of funding to Early Childhood Ireland?

Ms Irene Gunning

Yes.

My background is in the girl guides. I am a trainer on code of ethics. We are permitted to train our leaders. Ms Gunning is saying that while the HSE says Early Childhood Ireland must have this training, it is not available and is linked to funding for the organisation. Is that correct?

Ms Irene Gunning

No.

It is only linked to the HSE.

Ms Irene Gunning

The HSE provides the training. Owing to a shortage of personnel within the HSE, who cannot be replaced, we stepped up to the mark and offered to do the training. We are well capable of doing this work. However, thus far the HSE has not allowed this.

Perhaps Ms Gunning would like to respond now to the remaining questions asked.

Ms Irene Gunning

On emotional abuse-----

I will come back to Ms Gunning on that issue. Deputy Dowds wishes to ask a question.

I apologise for not being here for the earlier part of the meeting but I was tied up in organising a public meeting on the referendum tonight. Could this legislation be constructed to insist on obligatory training of people involved in child care? This is possibly the most important area of education in terms of the laying of foundations.

Ms Irene Gunning

Yes. The question that arises is who is eligible to provide training and is the training approved training? All sorts of "cowboys" could set up and provide training. Thus far, the HSE has been particularly fussy in this regard, and rightly so. We have made a bid to become a training body but discussions have ground to a halt.

It may be difficult to define emotional abuse, but it is the essence of childhood that children grow up in environments that support emotional development and resilience. As such, it is essential we find a definition that works.

Would Ms de Buis or Ms Murray like to come in at this point?

On the questions regarding child minding and Senator van Turnhout's question in regard to whether "for reward" and the inclusion in this regard of family members, is too wide, when looking at this we looked to the definitions used by other jurisdictions. For example, in England, those who care for children to whom they are related are excluded. Scotland, however, legislates for those who for reward care for one or more children on domestic premises for a period of more than two hours in any day. When considering whether our provision should be as broad, we agreed it is important that it is. Where a relative is caring for a child that relationship changes when it becomes a professional one in that the relative is obliged to care for the child appropriately. It is appropriate therefore that this onus and responsibility is provided for in the Children First legislation.

As to why so few people notify, there are a number of exceptions and exemptions in this regard, including where a person is caring for the children of a relative or spouse of a relative, where all the children being cared for belong to a single family and where three or fewer preschool children are being cared for. This does not take into account that after-school provision is completely unregulated in that there is no requirement at all to notify. The question was asked what would change as a result of the requirement to notify. Not alone would this be a legislative change but it would also bring about a cultural change in terms of parents taking the lead and asking where carers come within this provision. Currently, childminders who are not notified are not required to provide Garda vetting. Parents asking carers about Garda vetting is what would bring about change. However, there is a need for a legislative framework to ensure this change occurs.

In Ms de Buis's opinion, would that be a positive step?

Ms Ciairín de Buis

Yes, I believe it would be very positive. It is important it does happen.

Questions were also asked about dual use facilities in terms of services being provided directly to children which are then accessed by a preschool service or childminders. It is important they also come within the framework of the legislation. On emotional abuse, I echo what Ms Gunning said, namely, that it is at the core of what we are speaking about. It may be difficult to define but a definition needs to be found and provided for within the legislative framework. I know from submissions which other organisations have shared with us that they have put forward suggested wordings around emotional abuse. I am sure that with all the expertise available in the drafting of this legislation a viable workable definition can be found and included within the statutory framework.

Ms Patricia Murray

Part VII of the Child Care Act 1991 exempts childminders unless caring for four or more unrelated preschool children. For this reason, childminders care for three or fewer preschool children and any number of school going children. Often a childminder can be caring for up to 15 children, which is perfectly legal under existing legislation. The 1991 Act replaced the 1908 Act. In my lifetime, I will not see the 1991 Act amended unless something radically different happens. Perhaps the current Minister will considering tearing up that Act and starting again, and soon. In the event that that does not happen and given child protection has paramountcy, this legislation must also have paramountcy and require any individual who is caring for children to notify. I am concerned about the use of the term "for reward". For example, two female police officers in the UK who cared for each other's child while they were at work, were told by the UK courts that because one was rewarding the other they were required to notify themselves as childminders subject to inspection by the police. I do not know if we want our nurses or people engaged in such arrangements to be subjected to that.

I would like the drafters of this legislation to focus on known situations in which children are being abused. There is no anecdotal evidence that childminders are abusing children. That is not where the abuse and neglect is happening. The culture of child protection, in terms of "the children are happy and everything is fine" must change. We now realise many child care facilities were hell holes. I ask that the framers of this legislation look to the bus drivers, music teachers and so on. Although I am quite fond of teenage boys I would not, for their own protection, engage one to baby-sit. Research carried out in Northern Ireland 12 years ago indicated that 67% of abuse of small children was by teenage boys who were baby-sitting. Make this legislation robust. For God's sake, look at where individuals have opportunities to abuse and use children. My friend's two children were abused by a music teacher - a "lovely man". He brought the children into his house and charged them for music lessons. He had abused a series of children over many years. Let us be sure this includes childminders. This legislation should require childminders to make their presence known to the HSE, whether by notifying it or by registering with it - the language does not matter. People who provide a service to children, in particular where they have unsupervised access to children, should be required to notify the HSE. They should be required to fulfil the functions of the designated officer and they should be required to be cleared by the Garda to ensure there is nothing in their backgrounds which is unsuitable. If this Bill achieves those three things, it is fit for purpose but if it does not, we need not waste time with it. It needs to be fit for purpose.

I did not speak earlier because I was very interested to hear what people had to say. I found all the presentations very interesting and thought-provoking, although sometimes bizarre. To suggest that we could police people minding children in their own homes, in particular grandparents, is bizarre. As a recent grandparent, it gives me great joy to be able to be at home to mind my grandchild and it gives my husband even greater joy to be at home to mind his beautiful granddaughter.

I think Deputy Regina Doherty spoke about seeing lots of grandparents minding their grandchildren. We must consider the role of the parent. No parent will hand his or her children over to somebody who he or she does not believe in his or her heart and soul will mind them. We can take this to the extreme or we can take it back into the real world. Today, for various reasons, many young parents both work and many depend solely on grandparents while others rely on aunts and uncles and so on. One could probably count on one hand the number of parents who would put their children in a place where they did not believe their children were safe.

I emphasise that vetting is very important, in particular in structured playschools and so on. I am a bit confused about the training. Many organisations provide training at different levels, whether FETAC, community groups and partnerships. A huge amount of money is going to all these organisations, in particular partnerships and taskforces. They advertise training for A, B and C.

I am not sure that every grandparent is getting paid to mind his or her grandchild. To be honest, I do not believe that is a fact. I know plenty of grandparents and they are doing it to allow their children to go to work to keep the roof over their head. That is what the majority of grandparents I know are doing.

I said previously that the free preschool place has been a disaster. Some children can go to a school if their birthday is before a certain date. I hope that will be looked at.

Ms Gunning raised a most important issue which affected me, namely, verbal and emotional abuse. I speak from experience in that one of my children was emotionally and verbally abused by somebody in an organisation. It is life changing and it lasts a lifetime; it does not go away. I have come to believe it gets worse as the child gets older. It leaves the child with a certain stigma that he or she is not capable of doing A, B or C and that if he or she speaks out about what was done, he or she wonders how he or she will be protected.

We must ensure people take on the role of protector of children in communities, whether in a parish hall, in a choir, in the local gym or in the singing and dance club. It need only be one person in a parish; it does not have to be ten, 20 or 30. There must be a person to whom parents can turn, say they have a problem which they would like to discuss and that they would like advice. That is not happening in parishes. It is very important that the management of these organisations - the executive or management committees - have proper structures in place for child protection.

Children are not believed. If a child tells me something has happened I, as an adult, never mind anything else, should be able to protect that child, whether through the local person who is designated through the Garda or otherwise. We must wake up to the fact that children are being abused. Those of us who are involved in communities, whether volunteers or public representatives, must have the right to go to somebody to express our fears.

Emotional and verbal abuse must be challenged. As I said, I had an experience many years ago with one of my children which I believe has affected them. I had to take two children out of school as a result. It did not happen in the school but I had to take my children out of it because they were being bullied there over what happened in the parish. As a parent, I felt totally let down by the community I lived in, by the organisation running the place and by the church.

Unfortunately with verbal and emotional abuse, there are few places to which one can go. We sought expertise and so on but because we did not come under a certain criteria, we were told to go home, close the door and forget about it. That is not the answer we need to give to people. We need to help them.

I would like to make a final point, and I am sorry for lingering on this. It is very important that those in the community who work in a voluntary capacity ensure that if a child comes to them, they believe him or her. If the child is not telling the truth, I guarantee he or she will soon be found out. If, in the past, we had believed many of the children who went to people in different organisations, many of them would not have been scarred for life as they are today.

I said things sounded bizarre to me. It would be impossible to provide in a Bill for the policing of everybody who minds children at home.

I have huge respect for community playgroups. They started up in communities when there was nothing else. Parents helped out for two days or a half day. Only for community playschools, many children would never have been able to go to school with some kind of stability. We owe a hell of a lot to the hundreds of people who volunteered during a time when there was nothing else in place.

It has been a very interesting discussion. I am a little concerned about the poor rate of training in regard to child protection in the early years sector, in particular when one thinks that the majority of the members of the organisations represented here receive a large amount of money from the Government to provide the free preschool year. The Government is paying for children to attend preschools where half the people offering the service do not have child protection training. Is that right?

Ms Irene Gunning

That can be the case.

That is very alarming and needs to be addressed immediately. I, and I am sure my colleagues, will bring that to the immediate attention of the Minister, the Department and the HSE to apply pressure. That cannot be allowed to fester and continue. Will it be 53% next year?

I refer to the term "professional childminder". Does that mean somebody who receives money for minding children or someone who minds children who has a qualification? Perhaps the representatives would tease out that issue.

With respect, as the Chairman is blessed among women, asking us to be brief is not something we do very well. I want to further clarify a point Deputy Conway has made. In the early childhood sector people receive money from the State on the one hand, through ECC payments, to provide child care places to parents who are glad to have them. Having notified the HSE that one is in business minding many children, and the HSE eventually inspects the business, does one pass the inspection if one does not have the child protection guideline training?

I thank the representatives for their presentation. As I have been asked by Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin to attend the meeting I have taken notes and will report back to him. While I have not attended the other sessions this meeting has been very interesting. I am alarmed to learn that 52% of those providing child care have not received child protection training. That is one of the first issues I will draw to his attention which I am sure will be addressed by the Minister. It was stated that approximately 1,000 people leave the profession each year. Is that because its members are badly paid? For persons who wish to increase their qualifications from FETAC level 5 to level 7 that will be a bigger problem because they will have to receive extra remuneration. In respect of child care provision, is there a minimum age at which a person can provide child care and, if so, is it addressed in the legislation? Can a person aged 15 years look after three children or does one not have to be 18 years? I do not know the answer to these questions because I have not attended the earlier meetings. There was no reference to young babysitters at home and how does the legislation applies to them?

Ms Ciarín de Buis

I thank Members for their questions. I agree with Deputy Catherine Byrne's statement that parents only put children where they believe the child is safe. Our concern is that sometimes parents belief in the safety issue may not always be that it is safe. The framework we are seeking to put in place is to provide for those awful situations where the parents belief in the safety and the reality do not coincide. I offer my apologies in terms of my delivery because obviously I was not clear. I thought I said clearly that our definition excludes grandparents and informal family arrangements. We were looking at childminders who are doing that work on a regular professional basis.

Deputy Conway asked what constitutes professional work in this area and whether it is for payment or in terms of qualifications. That question opens a whole other book on the issues of childminders and preschool services around the requirements for qualifications. We regard professional childminders as those who do so for reward and provide preschool services and also have a certain basic training requirement. However, those requirements are not in place and childminders, in particular, can set up without any professional training. That is an issue that needs to change but this is not the legislation to provide for it. In terms of young babysitters, my understanding of the draft legislation is that they would be excluded because they are directly employed by the parents and also it is within the parents' home or the child's home as opposed to an external domestic setting or somebody else's home.

There is also the issue of emotional abuse and the huge impact and lifelong impact that can have. It is important that is encompassed within the legislation and that a definition is found in order that action can be taken when emotional abuse happens. The cultural change that I mentioned must form another part in leading the way in order that there is a greater understanding of emotional abuse, of the impact it has and how long that impact lasts throughout a person's life.

Ms Patricia Murray

I fully concur. Deputy Catherine Byrne's impassioned contribution resonated with all of us. The children we sent to school came home humiliated by school teachers. We will have to find a definition that works and will be robust in a court situation. Relatives are defined in the primary legislation. They include a spouse, a relative of a spouse, or a niece or a nephew of a childminder and-or a spouse. The word "spouse" is old fashioned. In the legislation it means a husband who is married. Partners and serial partners of vulnerable young mothers are serious abusers. We know from the English newspapers and from court cases here that people will go to where they can access vulnerable children. In defining relatives, it may be necessary to define individuals, including individual childminders, or individual music teachers. If a music teacher is offering music lessons to his or her niece or nephew in the private setting of their own sitting room with their own piano, I do not know whether we need to define that, but maybe we do. Ms Ciarín de Buis made the point very well that once a person is paid to provide a service to a child, the relationship becomes secondary and the child becomes paramount and the child protection issue should be to the fore.

We have approximately 1,000 members out of the 30,000 who are not notified to the HSE because there is no requirement to do so. About 1,000 come to us and we survey them each year. Unlike Belgium, they are staying in childminding increasingly because of the economic downturn. Some who would do childminding for the normal international average of 2.7 years are continuing to do it for 3.5 years and 4.9 yearsThose figures are available from the annual survey of members. As it is a small pool and looks at the same group year-on-year, it gives a flavour of trends. While we are following the trend in Belgium that does not mean there is not a considerable turnover and new people are entering the sector all the time.

To respond to Deputy McLellan, a 15 year old person could, quite legitimately, take up childminding and take in up to three preschool children and an unlimited number of schoolgoing children, without being subject to any legislation. However, if he or she takes on a fourth preschool child the business would be closed down because he or she is only 15 years of age and would have to be an adult, 18 years of age plus, to do that work. The Deputy's point is clear. A 15 year old could open a crèche in Ireland because the legislation does not provide that the staff must be trained. The HSE inspectors are beginning to ask for training but the legislation does not specify that training is required.

Deputy Conway asked about the HSE. The HSE inspectors are public health nurses. I hope none of the children is sick. In 1995 and 1996 when the regulations under the 1991 Act came into effect, there were no degree courses. The degree course in child care was only starting. Graduates are coming on-stream with honours degrees in early childhood care and education and they should have the jobs as inspectors as the others retire. That should be the bar. This is not about sick children but healthy children in child care services.

Ms Irene Gunning

My heart goes out to Deputy Catherine Byrne in the same way as many other people who speak about the effects of emotional abuse within systems. That is why, as Ms Ciarín de Buis did, I located the child at the centre. There will have to be a paradigm shift in the way we view, manage, deal with and have relationships with children. We are still operating from an old view of children being seen and not heard.

When Ms Gunning says "we", to whom is she referring?

Ms Irene Gunning

I am referring to Irish society.

Does she really believe that-----

Ms Irene Gunning

I do.

-----in light of all the reports we have had and all the transparency we have brought to the way children are treated by the State, by the church and by lay people?

Ms Irene Gunning

I believe we have all been deeply shocked.

I was struck by Ms Gunning's reference earlier to a "contemporary view of children".

Ms Irene Gunning

Yes.

I would make the point that modern Ireland is focused today on putting the child at its centre. Everybody involved in sport and education, like everybody where we are and everybody where Ms Gunning and her colleagues are, is driven by Children First. I know she has said that does not mean anything-----

Ms Irene Gunning

Yes.

-----but to me it means an awful lot.

Ms Irene Gunning

Children First can lead people to believe children are needy, dependent, vulnerable and need protection. That is a different view from that which sees children as being rich in potential, strong, competent and able to shape their own daily lives. I believe children should be able to have a voice and should be encouraged to have a voice. There is a difference between the two views. It is difficult for us, as a whole, to see what is inherent in our culture. The effects of abuse are generational. They are not confined to one's lifetime. I beg the members of the committee to read The Unsayable: The Hidden Language of Trauma by Annie Rogers. It was recommended by Tony Bates on the radio recently. I invite members to get in touch with me after they have absorbed it so that we can talk about it. Abuse is deeply pervasive. It is in our psyche. It goes on generation after generation. People sometimes do not know why they are slapping, reaching out or saying horrible things. They do not know they are doing it because of the deep hurt within themselves and the deep shame they are carrying around with them. It goes on and on and on.

We need to change the culture. That can be done through training and support. I cannot stress enough how essential it is for us to provide supportive environments and support people. At a time when money is tight, it seems we do not have money for so-called "luxuries" like training and support. I suggest this is the very time when such things are needed. I emphasise that the stresses and strains that are being faced by families at the moment warrant the paying of attention to this kind of training and support. I beg the members of the committee to read books that explain how pervasive the abuse of children is.

It has been suggested that people are being paid by the State even though they have not received the necessary training. I would say that the scheme is wonderful. The free scheme is a policy decision that actually brings Ireland up again into the modern world. We offer a service to which young children and families are entitled. It is a terrible shame that it did not happen when we had more money, or that we do not have more money now. The people who run these services are being paid the minimum for providing contact hours with children. That means they go in the door, and the children go in the door, and they are busy interacting with the children. They do not get any time to sit back, think about what might have happened, reflect, talk to their colleagues, have staff meetings or make plans.

Ms Patricia Murray

Yes.

Ms Irene Gunning

They do not have any time, other than that which is paid for, to speak to their colleagues about odd behaviour they might have noticed or to ask them what they think might have caused it. They are not paid for non-contact hours. Nevertheless, the scheme is funded by public money. The State is the only buyer. It saves the sector, in one way, because the businesses might not all manage in these severe times. At the same time, it has set the price, etc. As the only buyer in town, the State is dictating how this whole sector will operate. People will say they feel very weary and want quality. Everybody wants the implementation of Síolta, the Aistear curriculum and the child protection guidelines. Of course they want that. Everybody wants to run a good, safe and well-conducted business that provides a service to children and families. Sadly, they are not nearly being sufficiently remunerated. I agree with the person who said we do not hold those who graduate from programmes between levels 5 and 7, including degree programmes, because they go into better-paid jobs. That goes without saying. Of course we want a graduate-led workforce, but that requires more money.

I thank the three witnesses for their most informative, challenging, profound, provocative and reflective presentations. This has been one of the best meetings we have had since we started these hearings. I thank Ms Gunning, Ms de Buis and Ms Murray for coming to today's meeting. I thank members for their participation in it. I remind the committee that our quarterly meeting with the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs will take place on 21 June next. Members are asked to submit their questions by the close of business on Thursday, 17 May, if they have not already done so. I would also like to remind members that the Select Sub-Committee on Children and Youth Affairs will meet at 11.30 a.m. on Thursday and that the Select Sub-Committee on Health will meet at 9.30 a.m. on the same day.

I would like to raise a matter in private session if that is okay.

That is fine. I remind the Deputy that there is another meeting at 4.30 p.m.

The joint committee went into private session at 4.17 p.m. and adjourned at 4.20 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 22 May 2012.
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