Skip to main content
Normal View

Joint Committee on Health and Children debate -
Thursday, 13 Feb 2014

Public Health (Standardised Packaging of Tobacco) Bill 2013: Discussion (Resumed)

Apologies have been received from Deputy Seamus Healy and Senators John Crown, Imelda Henry and Marc MacSharry. Deputy Kelleher will be late arriving as he must attend another meeting after being in the Dáil. I thank members for facilitating the postponement of today's start time until 11 a.m. given that there was a clash with questions on health in the Dáil.

Before we begin our deliberations on the heads of the tobacco plain packaging Bill, I remind people to switch off their mobile telephones or put them in flight mode. That applies to members of the committee, witnesses and people in the Public Gallery. I apologise in advance because I may have leave to speak in the Dáil at some stage.

As members and witnesses will be aware, this morning we will conclude our deliberations on the general scheme of the Public Health (Standardised Packaging of Tobacco) Bill, which was referred to the committee for consideration before Christmas. We have had a very thorough and good examination of the heads of the Bill. This morning we will hear from members of the industry. It is important that we, as a committee, take time to deliberate on the matter.

I welcome the delegations from P.J. Carroll and Company Limited, John Player & Sons Limited, JTI Ireland Limited and Forest Éireann. I will name witnesses as we go along and they give their presentations. They are all very welcome and I thank them for being here this morning. I also thank them for allowing us to change the start time for the meeting which may have inconvenienced them.

Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice and ruling of the Chair to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I remind members that we will conduct private business on Tuesday afternoon as part of our meeting then.

I invite Mr. Steven Donaldson, general manager, P.J. Carroll and Company Limited, to address the meeting and he is very welcome.

Mr. Steven Donaldson

I thank the Chairman and committee members for inviting us here this morning as representatives of P.J. Carroll to discuss the Government’s proposal on plain packaging. My name is Steven Donaldson and I am the general manager of P.J. Carroll and Company Limited. I am joined by my colleague, Mr. Ronald Ridderbeekx, head of corporate affairs for British American Tobacco in the UK and Ireland.

Founded in 1824, P.J. Carroll is proud to be one of Ireland’s oldest and best known businesses. Now a member of the BAT group, we currently employ 30 people, support the pensions of hundreds of former employees and indirectly support thousands of jobs across Ireland.

At the outset, let me say that we fully accept that smoking causes serious and fatal diseases. Therefore, we fully recognise and accept the Government’s right and interest in regulating on smoking and health issues. I also want to state unequivocally that in no way do we market our products to children. We fully support Government efforts to tackle youth smoking and we work in partnership with others to achieve this. We do not seek to turn non-smokers into smokers. There are 970,000 adult smokers in Ireland and more than 100,000 of them switch brands each year. Our business consists of offering quality tobacco products to these well-informed adults who make the choice to smoke. We fully accept that there is a long-term declining trend in the number of smokers and in the amount that these smokers consume.

It is our view that the legislation on plain packaging, under consideration by the committee, is a disproportionate measure. It will not achieve its stated aims but will risk a number of important undesirable consequences. I will address the following four points. First, the proposal will not reduce smoking rates or stop children from taking up smoking. In fact, evidence from Australia indicates there has been no change in rates of smoking even though plain packs have been on the market for 15 months. Second, the proposal will only benefit the criminal black market by providing a boost to an already thriving illicit trade in Ireland. Third, by depriving P.J. Carroll of our legitimately held trademarks - enshrined in Ireland’s Constitution and protected by EU and international law - plain packaging will damage Ireland’s reputation as a positive environment for business. It will give other industries cause for concern that their trademarks are not safe in Ireland. Finally, and crucially, there is a better way to achieve the Government's public health objectives. Proven measures such as a stronger focus on education, enforcement of existing laws and a ban on proxy purchasing can and will deliver results.

There is no credible evidence to suggest that plain packaging will reduce smoking rates. Extensive research has been carried out into why people take up smoking. All of the research points to parental influence, peer influence, social and cultural norms, price and access as the key factors, not packaging. Evidence offered by lobbyists for plain packaging points to a range of studies on attitudes and intentions to support their claims but fails to point to any real world evidence on the effect on smoking behaviour. Studies referenced by the Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, deal only with how people intend to react to the idea of plain packs, not what they actually do as a result of plain packs in the real world. Studies have shown that uglier packs are less attractive but they have failed to make the critical connection between uglier packs and the decision to take up smoking. The evidence offered in favour of plain packs is analysed in detail in our submission, which I encourage committee members to consider if they have not already done so.

Australia is the only country in the world to introduce plain packaging, in late 2012. The evidence from Australia has demonstrated that the desired outcome of a reduction in smoking prevalence has not been achieved. The evidence available from Australia, in reports from independent researchers KPMG and London Economics, shows that smoking rates in Australia have remained on trend, a small annual decline. In fact, the consumption of smoking is declining at a slightly slower rate than in the previous ten years, which is not what was predicted. Since plain packs were introduced in Australia 15 months ago, there has been absolutely no impact on smoking rates.

I will turn to the issue of smuggling. Plain packaging will create a big opportunity for criminals; they will only have to produce one pack design ever again if they so choose. By making it harder for consumers to distinguish between brands, price will become a more important factor in Ireland. More people will turn to the cheapest available cigarettes and these will be found on the black market. Estimates of the size, and cost to the Exchequer, of the Irish black market in tobacco vary but are between €240 million and double that amount. Either way, it is substantial. To put this in perspective, criminals already sell twice as many cigarettes in Ireland as P.J. Carroll but none of the criminal gangs behind the tobacco black market will appear before an Oireachtas committee. They do not obey any tobacco control regulations, they do not pay tax, they do not ask for ID and they do not care what is in the cigarettes they sell. The Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, recently told the Dáil: “As we continue to use price to discourage people from smoking, I think we will divert more and more of the trade to the illicit trade.” The Minister is correct, and it will be compounded by a measure that creates a lack of differentiation between a legal, duty paid pack of 20 for sale at €9.50 and a smuggled pack at half the price.

We fully acknowledge and support the valuable work of An Garda Síochána and the Revenue Commissioners in their efforts to tackle the black market. While acknowledging their contribution to the committee, it is worth noting that they indicated they have not yet seen any evidence from Australia on the impact of plain packaging on the black market. However, the most recent KPMG report points to a 13% increase in the level of tobacco smuggling in Australia in the first six months after it was introduced. The market has shifted, with new illegal plain pack lookalike brands and what are known as illicit whites gaining market share rapidly. If the trend is replicated in Ireland, we will see large growth in smuggled tobacco. This will undermine the interests of honest retailers, the law-abiding and tax compliant tobacco industry, Government excise returns and public health objectives. The black market in cigarettes already costs the state hundreds of millions of euro and provides children with access to cigarettes. Plain packaging, while well intentioned, will only make this worse.

I would like to briefly touch on intellectual property issues. Our trademarks identify the origin and quality of our products. They tell the consumer that what is on the pack is what is in the pack. The removal of the legitimately held intellectual property rights of P.J. Carroll and other companies is a disproportionate measure in light of the less trade restrictive alternatives available. We also believe it is in breach of Irish and European law and international trade law. It will seriously damage Ireland’s reputation as a good destination for business, as evidenced by the concerns expressed by many business organisations to this committee. A number of countries are currently challenging Australian plain packaging legislation at the World Trade Organization. It is one of the biggest disputes ever to appear before the WTO, with 35 parties, including the EU and therefore Ireland, involved. We encourage this committee not to consider the introduction of any such legislation until the outcome of this dispute is known. Otherwise, it is possible that plain packaging legislation will need to be repealed.

Let me be clear that there is a better way. There is no disagreement between P.J. Carroll, the Government or the committee. We have a shared objective of preventing children from taking up smoking. We support proportionate and evidence-based measures to achieve this objective - measures which will not result in the undesirable consequences I have already outlined. First, we do not believe that any adult should be able to purchase tobacco for children. We believe that any adult who does so is knowingly breaking the law and there must be effective criminal penalties for these adults. Second, certain education programmes have proven particularly successful at stopping children from starting to smoke. These education programmes focus not just on the awareness of risks of smoking, but also provide young people with the life skills to resist peer pressure and make their own choices. Germany, Sweden, and some states in America have achieved excellent outcomes by using education to address youth initiation. In Germany, smoking among children 12 to 17 years has seen a significant decline over the past ten years, from 27.5% to 11.7%. Germany does not ban advertisement or display of products. Instead, it focuses on education programmes such as Class2000, ClearSight and "Be smart-don't start". Education and preventing access are proven ways to stop children from starting smoking. They tackle the real drivers of youth initiation – peer pressure, social and cultural norms and access. Packaging is not why children or adults start smoking and plain packaging will not make them stop.

Last week, this committee discussed with business groups the need to carry out a regulatory impact assessment, RIA, on the legislation. The following day, the Department of Health told stakeholders that it was finally going to carry out an RIA. The Cabinet handbook and Taoiseach’s guidelines are clear that an RIA should have been carried out before the Minister brought the proposal to legislate to Cabinet last November. This committee should not have been asked by the Minister to hear evidence without having an RIA to assess the costs and benefits.

I thank Deputies and Senators for the opportunity to discuss this important issue. We sincerely urge members to gather more evidence before making recommendations on the proposal. The committee must consider the outcome of an RIA before making any recommendations to the Minister. We ask that the committee look further at the evidence from Australia. The evidence clearly shows that the Australian plain packaging experiment is failing. We urge the committee to await the outcome of the major dispute at the WTO.

We believe this further evidence will show committee members and Government that this legislation will not achieve its aims but will have serious negative consequences. These include boosting an already thriving black market that undermines health objectives, costing the taxpayer further millions in lost taxes, costing jobs around the country, illegally confiscating intellectual property and severely damaging Ireland’s reputation as a result. I thank members for listening this morning and I look forward to answering questions.

I welcome Mr. Andrew Meagher, managing director of John Player & Sons Limited, and I invite him to make his presentation.

Mr. Andrew Meagher

My name is Andrew Meagher and I am the managing director of John Player & Sons Limited. I am joined by my colleague, Dr. Axel Gietz, director of group corporate affairs at Imperial Tobacco. I can assist the committee with issues regarding the Irish market and Dr. Gietz can answer questions on any broader corporate matters.

John Player & Sons Limited has a long and proud history in Ireland and employs 70 people. Imperial Tobacco also operates a tobacco factory in Mullingar, which employs 120 people. We are a legitimate company authorised by the Government and Revenue to sell a lawful regulated product to adults. We fully support the Minister’s objective that children should not smoke. Nobody working in our company wants children to smoke - neither ours nor anybody else’s. I am grateful for this opportunity to debunk the myth that we use our brands to entice Irish children to smoke. I have worked for 20 years in John Player & Sons Limited. Over that time, neither I, nor any of my colleagues, has ever once developed or designed a brand or even contemplated such a thing with the purpose of attracting children to smoke.

While sharing the Minister’s objective, we hold a different view from him as to what is the most effective way to prevent minors from smoking. The Minister believes plain packaging would prevent children from starting to smoke because they are influenced by cigarette packaging but there is no credible evidence to support this contention, either from Australia or anywhere else.

Even the Chief Medical Officer, when he met the committee before Christmas, accepted the absence of evidence from Australia. He said, "We have to await a proper evaluation", and I fully agree.

Ireland has followed a high tax, high regulation approach to tobacco control for many years and yet Irish smoking rates remain consistently high. According to EU statistics, Ireland's 2012 smoking rate of 29% is the same as it was in 2006. Some 28% of young Irish people start smoking at 15 years and younger compared with the EU average of 17%. The ban on press advertising, the ban on smoking in pubs, the ban on ten packs, the ban on display of tobacco in shops and significant excise increases have not had any measurable impact on smoking rates. Ireland's tobacco control model is simply not working. However, alternative approaches based on education and instruction rather than bans appear to be much more successful.

The German tobacco control strategy, which is education based, has produced striking results. It permits billboard and cinema advertising of tobacco. Tobacco products are openly displayed in German shops and yet youth smoking initiation rates are 17% in Germany compared with 28% in Ireland. In America, the Centre for Disease Control recommends tobacco use prevention education programmes in schools.

There are three predictable consequences of plain packaging that would negatively affect the entire community. The black market would grow, the Exchequer, legitimate industry and retailers would lose revenue without any decline in consumption levels as tobacco tourism flourishes, and Ireland's international business reputation would be undermined. As we sit here today, criminals are busily selling illicit white cigarettes on Moore Street in complete violation of every single tobacco control measure that this country has ever introduced, including selling to children. The irony is that if this Bill were to be passed, organised crime gangs would have the unique selling point of being the only supplier of branded packs in the country and this could lead to increased sales of illicit white brands on Moore Street and other street markets throughout the country. While 79% of the retail price of cigarettes goes directly to the Exchequer, there will be no such contribution from the branded packs that will continue to be sold on Moore Street or at Balbriggan market, regardless of this Bill.

A second consequence is that while the Minister intends that smokers can only buy a pack of John Player Blue in a plain pack in Ireland, Irish holidaymakers or day travellers can buy the same branded pack for literally half the price in Spain and Portugal. One assumes that this fear of tobacco tourism is the reason that the Department of Health stated in an EU submission in 2010 that “the introduction of generic or plain packaging must be on the basis of robust evidence. If such a measure is to be introduced, it should be mandatory and there should be a harmonized approach across all Member States." Instead, we now have a solo run by Ireland despite failing to come up with the robust evidence that the Department itself called for in 2010.

A third consequence is that the State would send a clear message to the international business community that their valuable intellectual property would not be protected. Who would invest in Ireland when, without robust evidence and when other less draconian alternatives are available, the State proceeds to seize a company's assets? The fact that a regulatory impact assessment has not even been conducted in advance of this proposal will surely set alarm bells ringing in the headquarters of Irish and foreign multinationals.

The Minister has correctly lauded the model of universal health insurance as applied in the Netherlands because it delivers results. This same approach should be applied to tobacco control - learn and adopt from what works and delivers results rather than trying to implement a policy that is as yet unproven, has been abandoned by the EU and brings with it too many negative consequences.

While John Player is opposed to plain packaging, we are not in any way opposed to preventing minors from smoking. However, this proposed measure must be reconsidered for the reasons already outlined. There is no robust evidence that it would achieve its stated aim, there are too many negative consequences and there are proven alternative education-based solutions from other jurisdictions that deliver reductions in minors smoking. The criteria for introducing new laws should be based on objective fact, real world robust evidence and demonstrable results. There is no evidence, there are no results and no regulatory impact assessment was conducted to justify this Bill.

This does not mean we cannot and should not immediately implement measures to prevent minors from smoking. We can do so by implementing programmes to give minors the life skills to be able to say "No" to peer pressure when it comes to tobacco use or indeed other habits, by preventing minors from accessing tobacco by prosecuting any retailer that sells tobacco to those under age and by resourcing the enforcement authorities to put the criminals who sell illegal cigarettes out of business. I thank the committee. Dr. Gietz and I are happy to answer any questions.

I thank Mr. Meagher for his presentation. I welcome Mr. John Freda, general manager, JTI Ireland, and call on him to make his opening remarks.

Mr. John Freda

I thank the Chairman and members for inviting JTI to present to the Joint Committee on Health and Children on plain packaging. I am joined by Mr. Michiel Reerink from our regulatory department.

Japan Tobacco International acquired Gallaher in 2007. Today, we supply tobacco products to more than 4,000 retailers across the country as well as employing more than 100 people. Our business is based on a number of core principles. Tobacco products carry risk to health and, therefore, appropriate and proportionate regulation of the tobacco sector is necessary and right. Everyone in Ireland should be reminded about the health risks of smoking. Most importantly, minors should not smoke nor should they be able to access or buy tobacco products.

In line with the regulatory impact assessment guidelines of the Department of the Taoiseach, a regulatory impact assessment must be conducted before a memorandum goes to Government seeking permission to regulate. The memorandum and heads of a Bill must be accompanied by a draft regulatory impact assessment. Despite the far-reaching consequences of the plain packaging proposal, we are concerned that no regulatory impact assessment has been completed to date. Therefore, we believe that the committee should call for an independent and robust regulatory impact assessment to be completed and reviewed by the committee and all Government Departments before the plain packaging Bill goes any further.

I am sure the committee is well aware that the Minister, Deputy Reilly, led discussions at an EU level on the revision of the tobacco products directive during the Irish Presidency. The outcome of these talks was that the member states and later the European Parliament agreed that plain packaging should not be included in the revised directive. However, the committee should also be aware that measures proposed within this directive will change the current landscape of tobacco across Europe.

The directive includes requirements to increase health warnings to 65% of the pack and a ban on certain pack shapes, including the current packaging for slim cigarettes. Therefore, with the changes expected as a result of the directive, why does the Irish Government need to introduce plain packaging in Ireland?

Let me tell the committee the three primary reasons JTI is so opposed to plain packaging. First, there is no credible evidence that plain packaging will actually achieve public health benefits. We believe it will make the situation worse. Second, the proposed legislation will prevent us from communicating with our consumers about our brands and their right to receive this from us.

Third, it will deprive us of our property, by removing our ability to differentiate our products from those of our competitors. If the proposals on plain packaging are implemented, there is no doubt in our mind that it will damage competition, will infringe rights and freedoms, including those enshrined in European law, will raise barriers to trade and will ultimately result in a loss of jobs across Ireland.

The concept of plain packaging is based on an outdated notion of smoking behaviour. Regulators and academics tell us that children start smoking for many reasons. It is a combination of factors such as peer pressure, which plays a major role, and family and parental influence, which is also an important factor. The real key enabler is access to and availability of cheap tobacco products. It is not, however, the packaging of cigarettes.

Let me tell members more about the role of packaging. As with most consumer goods companies, brands are central to our business. We invest and innovate in packaging, design and quality so that we can compete with other products available to adult smokers, who, knowing the risks of smoking, want to smoke. Let me stress that we do not target children. A key challenge is to ensure that children cannot access tobacco products.

The best way to achieve this is to maintain a regulated and highly disciplined market where tobacco can be sold legally and stamp out the selling of untaxed and unregulated tobacco at a fraction of the price to children by organised criminals and illegal traders. These people do not care about the quality of the product or about the age of the child to whom they sell it. Let nobody be under any illusion - one of the serious consequences of plain packaging is that it will lead to a further growth in this highly lucrative illegal and unregulated trade in Ireland. The introduction of plain packaging will also increase children's access to tobacco in the unregulated market as prices are at least 50% cheaper than those of our disciplined retailers.

The Government's own reports state that when measuring levels of smoking, the vulnerable and disadvantaged are more at risk. The inevitable growth of the illicit trade, which is already too high, will only serve to further exacerbate this problem. We firmly believe that methods that are evidence based must be introduced to achieve public health benefits. As I mentioned earlier, we must prevent minors from accessing tobacco products. This can be done by reinforcing the age limit, by devising meaningful policies that make it harder for children to get their hands on tobacco, and punishing adults who knowingly buy tobacco products for children and-----

There is a vote in the Dáil. I propose that Mr. Freda finishes his presentation and then we will adjourn for the vote.

Mr. John Freda

Before doing anything else, the Government must prioritise and focus on stopping children accessing cheap tobacco in the unregulated market.

The Government should establish a targeted and comprehensive programme in schools to tackle peer pressure, which is a recognised key driver of youth smoking. Ireland has one of the highest youth smoking rates for the under 15 years age cohort in Europe. When we compare the uptake of smoking by youths in Ireland and Germany, the Eurobarometer data in 2012 shows the uptake among the under 15 years age cohort in Germany was 17% compared with the 28% uptake in Ireland, when a decade ago the levels were similar. We believe an education programme for primary and secondary level school pupils could be successful here in Ireland. We respectfully ask the committee members to consider this as one of a number of serious alternatives to the plain packaging proposal as they formulate their recommendations to the Minister for Health.

There is absolutely no credible evidence that plain packaging has had a positive health impact in Australia or that it would have such an impact in Ireland. More than 14 months after its implementation in Australia, there is still no official government assessment that plain packing has worked. In fact, the absolute lack of evidence reaffirms the point that packaging is not the reason that people start or even stop smoking. The introduction of plain packaging would increase children's access to tobacco and in particular to children in disadvantages parts. There are proven ways to reduce further the youth smoking rate in Ireland and these should be prioritised. We do not dispute the risks associated with tobacco use. Plain packaging legislation will not help reduce smoking rates in Ireland and it is for these reasons we strongly oppose plain packaging. We would be happy to discuss them with the chairman and members.

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for their time.

I thank Mr. Freda for his presentation. I propose we suspend now. I apologise to witnesses and the members in the Gallery for this interruption.

Sitting suspended at 11.36 a.m. and resumed at 11.51 a.m.

We will resume in public session. I apologise to everyone. As I said, parliamentary democracy waits for no one. The suspension of committee meetings is one of the joys of being in Parliament when it is sitting. I suppose it makes the case for a committee week, but we will park that debate for another day. I ask Mr. John Mallon of Forest Éireann to make some opening remarks. He is very welcome. I thank him for being here.

Mr. John Mallon

I thank the Chairman and the members of the joint committee for inviting me to attend this hearing. I represent the smokers’ group Forest Éireann. "Forest" stands for Freedom Organisation for the Right to Enjoy Smoking Tobacco. Forest Éireann was set up in 2010. We are supported by Forest UK, which was founded in 1979 to represent adults who choose to smoke tobacco and non-smoking adults who are tolerant of adults who smoke. Forest UK is supported by British American Tobacco, Imperial Tobacco Limited and Gallaher Limited, which is part of the Japan Tobacco International group of companies. Neither Forest UK nor Forest Éireann represents or speaks for the tobacco industry. We do not promote smoking or any tobacco product or brand. We have a completely independent set of goals, centred on the right to smoke a legal product without undue harassment or discrimination. As a smoker, I am here to offer the perspective of the consumer who chooses to smoke tobacco in full knowledge of the health risks associated with smoking, which are very well documented. I am also here to offer an insight into why people, including children, start smoking.

With regard to today’s hearing, we believe the case for standardised packaging of tobacco is based on the fallacy that children are attracted to smoking because of exposure to colourful or glitzy packaging and that without branding far fewer children or young people would be tempted to start smoking. This argument is based on speculation and conjecture, rather than on hard fact. There is no credible evidence that standardised packaging will have any effect on youth smoking rates. I started smoking because a friend offered me a cigarette and it became a daily social habit we engaged in and shared secretly together until we turned 18. Some 44 years later, we are still friends. Speaking personally, plain packaging will make no difference to me. I will simply ask for my regular brand of tobacco. I should add that when I am abroad in an EU country, if I choose to do so I can legally bring home a year's supply of local EU-duty paid tobacco. If Ireland adopts a unilateral approach to plain packaging, I expect that branded packs purchased abroad will be popular with many consumers as a symbol of passive rebellion.

The display of tobacco has been banned in Ireland since 2008. Smokers have to ask for their preferred brand before it is handed to them. Normally, they put it directly into their pocket or handbag. When a cigarette packet sees the light of day, it is normally in the company of other smokers outside the door. I suggest, therefore, that cigarette packets are already largely invisible to children. We believe the introduction of plain packaging is gesture politics. It will not stop children smoking. There are other more important issues the Department of Health should prioritise in 2014. In a recent poll by Red C for Forest Éireann, just 9% of those surveyed said they believe standardised packaging is the policy most likely to reduce youth smoking rates in Ireland. In contrast, more than half of those surveyed thought health education in schools would be the most effective way of reducing smoking rates. Plain packaging ranked fourth of four suggested priority issues for the Minister for Health in 2014, with just 4% of respondents thinking it should be prioritised. In contrast, 45% of those polled wanted the Minister to prioritise the health budget overspend. It is interesting that 32% were worried about childhood obesity. Some 18% were worried about under age drinking, which is quite topical at the moment.

The current Minister for Health has made plain packaging of tobacco a personal crusade even though a very small minority of people think it is the best way to stop children smoking. Even fewer want it to be his main priority. We are concerned that plain or standardised packaging represents another step towards a nanny state in which adult consumers are increasingly infantilised by politicians who do not trust us to make decisions for ourselves. As consumers, we are also concerned about the slippery slope - the idea that once standardised packaging is introduced for tobacco, the policy will be adopted for alcohol, convenience foods and other potentially unhealthy products. We believe the treatment of smokers over the last ten years is setting a dangerous precedent in a democracy because the same tactics can now be applied to the consumers of other products we freely choose to spend our money on. How long will it be before public health campaigners call for alcohol, fatty food, sugar or even confectionary to be sold in plain packaging?

We do not want children to smoke. Smoking should be a choice for informed adults only. We support all reasonable measures that prevent or discourage children from purchasing or consuming tobacco. The proposal to introduce standardised packaging is neither reasonable nor justified. There is no credible evidence to suggest it will work. If the Government really wants to protect children from smoking, it should seek tougher enforcement of existing laws and focus on further education, primarily in schools but also in the home. Most important, perhaps, the State of the Nation's Children report, which was published by the Department of Children and Youth Affairs in 2012, highlights the fact that children in more disadvantaged areas are most likely to smoke. In our view, it would be better for the nation's health if the Government were to address this issue rather than focusing on distractions like plain packaging.

I thank the Chairman and the members of the committee for inviting Forest Éireann to attend today's hearing today. We are pleased the committee has recognised that the consumer is a legal stakeholder in this debate. We look forward to continued discussions in the future.

I thank Mr. Mallon.

I welcome the witnesses and thank them for their presentations. If one were to listen to what they had to say, one would be convinced that the tobacco industry is a benign industry that is well aware of its social obligations and its obligations to consumers. When one looks at the international evidence, however, one finds that is clearly not the case. There is a strong body of evidence to show that the tobacco industry internationally is quite an insidious invasive industry. It targets younger people. It takes an aggressive targeting approach in Latin America, Africa, the Caribbean and Asia. Some of the tobacco companies to which I refer are represented here. The witnesses have acknowledged that smoking has some health implications. It was accepted in the opening presentation that smoking causes cancer and other illnesses. That is well documented. It is much more than that, however - it is a killer habit which has a devastating impact on people's lives. I think any state is entitled to make reasonable policy decisions, and support them with legislation, to try to reduce the level of smoking in that country. The purpose of plain packaging would be to discourage people from smoking. In addition to discouraging young people from starting to smoke, it would also discourage older people from smoking. The same thing applies to the introduction of graphic design. Anything that makes smoking less attractive is a positive, in my view, as it will not encourage-----

(Interruptions).

There is a telephone going off somewhere.

There is. Perhaps it is an iPad.

I do not think iPads interfere with the sound system in the same way. As a State, we have an obligation to try to protect all our citizens. I remind Mr. Mallon that this includes adults as well as children.

Adults who are ill also generate additional costs as it costs the State money to treat people who have acquired illnesses or diseases through smoking. There are many reasons the State should take aggressive action to discourage people from starting smoking and encourage smokers to stop.

The key issue is that tobacco is an addictive substance and one cannot, therefore, speak of smoking being a rational decision. Heroin addicts do not want to stand on O'Connell Bridge in the wind and rain. They do so because they are addicts. I smoke from time to time and struggle with the addiction. It is better if one does not start to smoke. It is possible that Mr. Mallon's childhood friendship would last even longer if he had not chosen to smoke for the past 44 years.

Mr. John Mallon

That is a possibility, not a guarantee.

I am bringing the argument to a human level.

While I do not suggest that any of the companies represented target children in this country, the bottom line is that the tobacco industry, like every other industry, needs customers. Its customers die and it needs new customers. There is no point in recruiting a customer who is 75 years of age. The tobacco industry wants to recruit them at 12, 13, 14 and 15 years because the longer a person smokes, the more addicted he or she becomes and the more tobacco products he or she will buy. We live in a commercial world and we know what the tobacco industry is about. I am not arguing that the tobacco industry aggressively targets children here but it does so elsewhere in the world.

I read some of the transcripts of the hearings in the US Congress and Senate. The tobacco industry did not do itself any favours at the hearings. For years, it denied that smoking had health implications or that the industry took an aggressive approach to making tobacco as addictive as possible in order that people would continue to smoke. The credibility of the industry has been shattered internationally. For this reason, the State has an obligation to try to protect its citizens from a deeply damaging product. That tobacco is legally promoted around the world with the permission of governments and revenue authorities should not prevent us from doing everything possible to discourage as many people as we can from starting to smoke and encouraging those who smoke to stop.

If it is the witnesses' contention that there is no evidence to support the view that plain packaging will persuade people to stop smoking and prevent young people from starting smoking, why are they concerned about the proposal? Japan Tobacco International took the Australian Government to court to prevent the implementation of plain packaging for cigarettes. It is farcical to suggest that evidence should be available to show plain packaging works within 14 months of its implementation. Tobacco is an addictive substance and I would expect the witnesses to appreciate that one would need more than 14 months to produce evidence to show whether plain packaging works or otherwise.

I hope plain packaging will be introduced here and I hope it works. In the meantime, we should do everything possible to encourage people to give up smoking. Mr. Mallon may argue that smokers take a rational decision based on free will to continue to smoke. Smokers continue to do so, by and large because they are addicted to tobacco.

The tobacco industry has had to accept the huge damage to public health that its products have caused. I note the following statement from the representative of P.J. Carroll, Mr. Donaldson: "Let me say that we fully accept that smoking causes serious and fatal diseases." In fairness to him, he did not state that this applies only to children and young people, but across the board. It is extremely important that we recognise that smoking tobacco causes serious and fatal diseases for all smokers, irrespective of when they start smoking. What the industry does not accept are the consequences of accepting that this is the case. It has, using the substantial resources available to it, resisted all efforts by the State to properly engage with people who smoke, with a view to combating the smoking habit and attraction of smoking. At every turn, the tobacco industry has sought to challenge the State in its efforts to reduce smoking and it continues to do so. The presence of the witnesses indicates that this pattern continues and its outlook remains the same.

While the tobacco industry is on the wane in developed countries, sadly its product is acquiring a new future in developing regions. I have no doubt that significant and new public health issues will present in many countries across the globe because more and more people are being encouraged to take up tobacco smoking. I regret that very much.

The bald fact is that the witnesses are representatives of an illness industry. I have no other way of phrasing that statement given the cost that tobacco has imposed on the lives of ordinary citizens over many decades not only in terms of the health of many individuals, but also in terms of the cost to each person who provides for health care services. With all respect, it is time for payback. We have been burdened with an inordinate additional financial responsibility and others have had to bear the consequences of having their lives shortened or experiencing serious illness through the use of the products the tobacco industry manufactures.

Many of the witnesses referred to the black market and I agree it must be stamped out. Who is producing the cigarettes that feed the black market trade? From where do these products come? Are any of the companies represented here involved in the provision of products that enable black market profiteers to carry out their illicit trade? Do the witnesses know who is producing these goods? These are serious matters which need to be brought to the attention of the authorities not only on the basis that they cost the Exchequer, but because they have legal implications. This issue cannot be addressed independently of whatever knowledge the witnesses may have in this regard.

Mr. Meagher from John Player stated he fully agreed with the Chief Medical Officer in respect of the evidence from Australia. He then stated: "The ban on press advertising, the ban on smoking in pubs, the ban on ten packs, the ban on display of tobacco in shops and significant excise increases have not had any measurable impact on smoking rates." I disagree fundamentally. All of the measures cited by Mr. Meagher have had a positive impact. Statistics are often abused and misused. I know many people who may have been enticed to take up smoking but have not done so. Collectively, the measures to which Mr. Meagher referred have made a contribution in this regard. It is impossible to measure the potential of the introduction of the plain packaging measure.

He is right to say that the evidence is not phenomenal in terms of the Australian experience but it is part of a package of measures and is part of what has been described here and I accept the view on momentum.

It is an inevitable momentum that the industry should face up to and its collective minds and skills and talents would be better employed addressing an alternative sustainable future for its employees that would make a very positive contribution not only to the industry but to the lives of the broader mankind. My only question to each of the witnesses, except John, who, in fairness, has been upfront and I know exactly where he is coming from and I have many friends who are on the same page with him. I say, well done, I have heard everything he has had to say and respect it. I would like to ask the tobacco industry representatives, each in turn, if the Chair will ask them on my account, if they smoke tobacco.

I will begin by congratulating the New Zealand Parliament which, on Tuesday evening, had its first vote on the tobacco plain packaging amendment Bill and voted 118 to 1. Therefore, we are not alone in this discussion and it is not just Australia. At the hearings at these meetings, which no doubt the industry has been following, we have had some really compelling evidence so I find it difficult when I am being told there is no evidence. We have had compelling evidence from medical specialists and children's groups. The evidence from the children's groups, for me as a children's rights activist, is that while the industry hears what is being said, it does not target children. The reality is that in Ireland, we know that 78% of those who will start smoking today will be under 18 years of age. Either the companies' marketing campaigns are seriously misdirected or there is a targeting of children. We heard from children themselves at this committee about how the packaging is attractive to them. In Ireland we need 50 new smokers per day, that means 39 will be under 18 every day, and we know that the industry's business model will collapse if it does not get them. That is the position I am coming from on this issue and the reason I fully support plain packaging.

The witnesses cited the experience in Germany about education and the use of education. I am sure other colleagues will come in on this issue. Germany has the same smoking rate for 12 to 17 year olds as Ireland which is 12%. Germany's evidence on youth smoking rates is clear from increased taxation and its smoking bans. In regard to marketing, the industry is quick to say that marketing is not attracting children. Can the industry give us access to its marketing data for "lipstick packs", for example, if it is so assured of its evidence?

With regard also to the marketing of children, I saw a BBC documentary in 2008 which clearly showed the marketing to children in Africa, selling cigarettes in singles. The witnesses presented some figures today but the figures I trust are those from the HSE national tobacco control office which states that the rate is not 970,000 but 750,000 smokers in Ireland, which is 22%. We have heard this morning that there was no evidence from Australia. The Australian TV channel, ABC News fact check team, actually investigated that claim and refutes the claim put forward by the industry that there is no evidence. Perhaps the witnesses would watch it themselves.

We have been told this morning that plain packaging will create a big opportunity for criminals. I suggest the witnesses read the recently published European Parliament's budgetary committee report which states "The single most important factor that will influence the size of the illicit cigarette market in Europe is the business strategy of the cigarette manufacturers". We have also heard that we will not have any criminal gangs behind the tobacco smuggling before this joint committee and the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, was cited. Perhaps the witness can explain why that same Minister for Finance said in the House that he suspected the legal tobacco industry of involvement of production in illicit cigarettes. Every year, the tobacco industry claims to us that high prices will increase smuggling, but it increases it own prices. It is not just taxation that increases prices. The witness speak about illicit white brands on Moore Street. The only reliable research we have is from the HSE national tobacco control office which shows a smuggling rate of 13% in Ireland but of that 13% it states that 1% is counterfeit and virtually all of the rest comes from legal industry. In other words, counterfeit tobacco in an Irish context is virtually irrelevant and I do not think it provides any valid argument. The witnesses cited the KPMG report which I could go through. However, there is one quote I like to take from it on page 25 which states that the KPMG's project star data cannot be used to estimate the illicit cigarette market in the EU because the report was commissioned to meet specific terms of reference which are only known to Philip Morris International and KPMG. Therefore, the witnesses should not use it and cite it as a credible report.

May I ask a question of Forest Éireann because it was originally set up by the industry trade body. I take what Mr. John Mallon has said.

I will bring in Mr. John Mallon again.

We know that four in five smokers want to quit. He cited a Red C poll. The Irish Heart Foundation wrote to Red C about the misleading presentation of this research. Red C replied that Forest Éireann did not follow its advice and stated that "as a result we will seriously consider refusing to work with this client in the future".

Go raibh maith agat.

We need to be very careful. The witness is telling us there is no evidence and yet he is telling me about the devastating impact it will have. Which is it?

As seven other speakers have indicated I would appreciate if they would make brief contributions to the point.

I thank the gentlemen for appearing before the committee. I would appreciate a "Yes" or "No" answer to the following question. Do the witnesses agree that their products kill half their intended users? I ask each company how much it spends annually in Ireland promoting its products to retailers? Is not tobacco an enormously profitable global business which preys on the misery and illness it causes? How much profit did each company make globally last year? What profits did each company make in Ireland? All the companies have mentioned education and the fact that the Government provides information on the dangers of cigarette smoking in school. I ask specifically how much each company has contributed to schools or to health to ensure the public is educated to the dangers of cigarettes? The tobacco industry has threatened to sue the Irish Government if it implements plain packaging. The Minister for Health has rightly said that he will not be intimidated by this sort of bullying approach.

Could we stick to the heads of the Bill?

I am coming to the Bill. I ask each company here if it intends to take legal action against the Government when plain packaging becomes law and the basis for this and the indicative damages it is likely to seek? I understand the companies made a profit of €227 million in 2011.

That is not relevant to the heads of the Bill.

Do these figures explain why the tobacco industry is so desperate to keep peddling death in Ireland and to keep recruiting young people to this filthy habit? The industry's business model, as mentioned by some of my colleagues, will not survive unless it gets children smoking. The Minister has called the tobacco industry an evil industry. Do the companies think anyone would believe they do not want children and young people to start smoking? Why is it that the Minister for Finance told the House in November that he suspects the legal tobacco industry is involved in the production of illicit cigarettes? Does each company accept that the legal tobacco industry has a long history of complicity in tobacco smuggling?

I have just one question for each of the witnesses present.

In his submission to this committee, Mr. Donaldson stated that smoking is a cause of various serious and fatal diseases, including lung cancer, emphysema, chronic bronchitis and cardiovascular diseases. I want to ask him two questions. First, how can he face family members, parents and children, knowing that he is a purveyor of death?

Thank you, Deputy.

Hold on; I have two more questions.

You do not because your time is up.

Is Mr. Donaldson seriously telling this committee that these cigarettes called Vogue are not designed to attract young girls? He has produced that brand in a fancy box aimed at young women and girls.

Mr. Meagher stated-----

The Deputy's time is up. She has had four minutes.

No; come on now. I have prepared for this not thinking there would be other people here. Let me continue, please. I am on a roll here.

Does Mr. Meagher believe that his industry has a problem because one in two smokers will die from a smoking habit? His industry has to find a replacement for every person who dies. He gave three predictable consequences if we introduce plain packaging. I had crocodile tears welling up in my eyes listening to him. The consequence of people smoking cigarettes is that half of them will die from smoke-related disease.

I found Mr. Freda's presentation to be very slick. He talked about changing the landscape but the landscape is that 50% of smokers are dying. I do not care what he says but that is what is happening.

Go raibh maith agat.

Mr. Freda talked about children.

The Deputy is not being fair to other members of the committee.

Just give me one second.

The Deputy has had ample time.

Mr. Freda mentioned slim cigarettes. His company produces the Silk Cut Super Slims brand.

Go raibh maith agat.

He comes in here and says one thing, but he does another.

Thank you.

If I can just say one thing to the last witness. In his submission, he said he represents smokers in Ireland. He also said he was fed up with people being treated like children. However, we are worried about children smoking and the whole tobacco industry. He described plain packaging as dull and grotesque. I agree with him but that is the way it should be. Maybe he does not remember that but it was in his submission. He said that historically is was a form of State-sponsored bullying. Does he not think that the State should protect its citizens?

Could I ask the Deputy to withdraw her remark to Mr. Donaldson in the context of being a purveyor of death? That is inappropriate.

Okay, I will withdraw that. I suppose what I meant was that one in two smokers will die.

Thank you, Deputy. I call Deputy Fitzpatrick. I will be strict on people now. We are dealing with the heads of the Bill and members cannot give Second Stage speeches.

I will not be long but, in fairness, I have attended every session so far.

That is irrelevant to today's discussion.

I want to welcome all the witnesses. I keep asking myself why some people smoke. I have never smoked, so I do not know what a cigarette tastes like. My father used to smoke 40 cigarettes a day and he died of lung cancer at the age of 74. In fairness to my father, however, he never smoked in the house, which was a good thing.

Some 5,200 Irish people die every year from smoking related diseases. Smoking is responsible for almost one in five of all deaths. To maintain smoking rates at their current level, the tobacco industry needs to recruit 50 new smokers every day. It is targeting our young children to achieve that. Irish smokers start smoking at the youngest age in Europe, just 16 years of age. Smoking is the number one cause of preventable deaths in Ireland. It costs the health service €650 million.

Cigarette packaging is a key method of marketing a message to our children. They are thin, slender and pink cigarette packets are aimed at young girls. The tobacco control policy of successive Irish governments has followed World Health Organization best practice. As far as I am concerned, it has worked. In 1998, 33% of the population smoked, while today the figure is 22%.

I wish to ask Mr. Donaldson a few questions. Where do the ingredients of cigarettes come from and should they be regulated? Are e-cigarettes affecting the sale of normal cigarettes? How many jobs are directly or indirectly supported by the tobacco industry in Ireland? What control does the industry have over retail stores to keep tobacco products out of public view?

I will be brief. I have read the submissions by the tobacco industry and listened carefully, as others have done this morning, to their presentations. I will limit myself to three points. The message coming from the tobacco industry is an attempt to get some high ground on the issue by saying that it is not targeting children. That message has been repeated here, using different language. The industry representatives say that is not where the new consumers are and that they are not enticing children to smoke.

Someone said it was not a good thing for children to smoke. Does that imply that it is a good thing for adults to smoke? I do not think so. As a former nicotine addict for too many years, I can say that it is not an easy addiction to shift. It is widely recognised internationally - except within the tobacco industry - that nicotine is more addictive than hash, heroin or cocaine. It is in a place of its own. As adults we have to stand up to this problem. Other speakers have mentioned the health costs involved.

The industry representatives have invested a lot of time in their submissions citing the Australian model to say that plain packaging is impotent and will have no significant effect on discouraging people from smoking. If that is the case, why are they here?

They are pulling this trick out of the book to say that there is some relationship between intellectual property rights and the 1937 Constitution. If they went down to the Law Library the most junior of barristers would tell them that there would be no hope of them being able to sue the State over plain packaging. That is because, assuming that this plain packaging goes ahead, the State will not materially benefit from it. The witnesses know that. I know why they are lobbying me and other Members about this constitutional question that the State might be sued. It is to have some effect and to get enough Deputies to wobble and stand up to the prospect of the Minister introducing the measure. The industry's argument does not stand up legally. Apart from that, the industry representatives are having the opposite effect by trying to zone in on 84 Deputies to get them to oppose the proposal by the Minister for Health.

Deputy Ciara Conway took the Chair.

I thank the witnesses for coming here. I do not want to be smart but I thank each of them for the employee representatives, who happen to live in my constituency, that they sent to my constituency offices to lobby me in recent weeks on the basis that they are losing their jobs. It was a cute move.

I would respect the industry representatives if they said the packaging measures we are introducing will have a serious impact on their bottom line and that would cause their businesses a problem. I would respect that and we could have a conversation accordingly. They have come in here, however, and said that they do not target children. They said there was no conclusive evidence arising from the Australian initiative.

They claim that there is conclusive evidence that contraband, supplied by their own industry, will go through the roof in this country, in spite of all the contrary evidence provided by the Department and especially the Revenue Commissioners. If the witnesses came in and sincerely engaged with us, they would get a different reaction. I do not believe there is a single person in this room who does not believe that tobacco companies specifically target children in order to get new customers. On that basis, I have no respect for the witnesses. I have four small children at home. They are not getting their hands on them.

The regulatory impact assessment is not about asking Mr. Meagher's opinion. The decision has been made by the Government that this policy will be enacted. It was about providing the industry with the opportunity to make submissions. If one were to entertain the notion that the industry was only engaging with its own consumers, where do the witnesses propose to get the extra 50 customers per day? Who are they targeting with the hundreds of thousands of euro spent on marketing in this country every year? To whom are they actually speaking?

I thank the witnesses for making their contributions this morning. It is good to hear both sides of the argument.

Back in 1964, Luther Terry, the then US Surgeon General, identified that smoking was a cause of death. The average number of people who die in this country as a direct result of smoking is 5,000 per annum, so a 250,000 people have died in the 50 years since 1964. That is greater than the number of people killed in conflicts that are reported on our news bulletins every night.

The witnesses identified this whole issue in respect of property rights. In particular, they referred to articles in the Constitution about property rights. How are those rights established? How can the witnesses maintain that the State has an obligation to them to protect those rights, when the State also has a legal obligation to protect the health of its citizens? All the evidence shows that 5,000 people per annum are dying as a result of smoking. If a pharmaceutical product was being sold in our pharmacies and was identified as causing death, the Government would be obliged immediately to remove that product off the market, yet the witnesses want us to leave everything as is in respect of dealing with something that is causing death.

To go back to the property rights issue, if I am the owner of land, the ESB is entitled to put electric wires over my land and I am not entitled to compensation. People might not be aware of it, but that is the position, because the provision of electricity is for the benefit of the citizens. Likewise, the work being carried out by the Minister for Health on trying to reduce the number of smokers is for the benefit of all the citizens. We can use all the arguments that it will not help, but every step that we take is there with the intention of trying to reduce the number of people smoking. The submission from John Player & Sons refers to fundamental human rights guaranteed by the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the EU. Perhaps Mr. Meagher might identify what particular article he is talking about in the charter, because there is also an obligation on the State to protect the health of its citizens. If we do not take on this problem, then the State is failing in its duty to its citizens. Do the witnesses not accept that under the Constitution, the State is also obliged to protect of its citizens, and that people's health takes precedence over property rights?

I am a mother of five children, two of whom smoke and with whom I have a constant battle to give up cigarettes. My role as a member of this committee is to listen and learn, and to be educated about medical and well being issues that affect the people we represent. After that, my role is to respond to observations and give my own life's opinion, because that is why I am here. I could repeat many of the questions that have already been asked, but I will just ask one or two more instead. As to the argument whether there are 970,000 or 750,000 smokers here, everybody in this room has said that over 5,000 people die every year through illnesses related to smoking. That is a very important figure for the witnesses to keep in their heads. Have any of them ever visited the respiratory unit of any hospital across the country? Have any of them ever walked in and saw the effect, not only on the patient in the bed, but the effect on the families and friends around the patient? It is unreal.

The witnesses claim that they do not target children. They said that smoking is an adult thing to do. What about the 21% of adults - young women - who smoke during their pregnancies? Does that not target the unborn child? I believe that it does, and 50% of those children end up seriously ill in respiratory units in perinatal clinics. A great number of stillbirths result from that as well.

If any of the witnesses have children, would they hand an 18 year old a packet of cigarettes and tell them to smoke them because they will not do them any harm? Looking at my 31 year old and my 21 year old at home, and having buried family members who smoked through their lives, I am not convinced at all that anything said today is marketable. I would not like to be in their job. Being a politician is a very difficult job, but I would not like to be in any of the witnesses' shoes, because they are marketing people out there to kill themselves. As for Mr. Mallon, I hope he brings some of his members into the accident and emergency in St. James's Hospital, particularly into the respiratory unit. I guarantee that he will give up smoking the next day.

Mr. Steven Donaldson

Quite a lot questions were asked, and I thank the committee members for asking them. Tobacco is an emotive topic, so it has generated a heated response. In response to Deputy Ó Caoláin's question about who is bringing in the black market and some of the accusations made about industry involvement, I have the seizure rates from the Revenue Commissioners for 2012. If we go through the companies, we find that 87% of what is coming in is what is known as "illicit whites". These are brands such as Raquel Master, which are coming from Vietnam and the United Arab Emirates. They have nothing to do with the legitimate companies here. We also find that 11% of what is coming in is counterfeit. I can assure members that my company is not involved in smuggling into Ireland. We want to eradicate smuggling globally. We have a strong presence in terms of what we are trying to do on smuggling, which my colleague will talk about later. We actively work with the Revenue Commissioners and with the Customs and Excise here, and with the Garda, to try to tackle smuggling in Ireland. We supplied hundreds of leads which have led to successful criminal prosecutions. The largest seizure in the history of the State - 120 million cigarettes were found in Greenore in 2009 - happened after intelligence was supplied by tobacco companies. We are absolutely committed to reducing smuggling here. Smuggling deprives the Exchequer of money and funds criminality in society, but also it critically undermines health objectives, because we believe that these products are being sold to children at half the price. Therefore, we should all work together because if we can all agree on one thing, it is that if we are going to allow adult citizens in Ireland to smoke, then it should be supplied by a legal supplier.

I spoke to David Crow, who is my counterpart in Australia, about the black market. We know from Australia is that the long-term consumption trend was -3% of people who smoke cigarettes in that country. That has stayed pretty stable. It has dropped to -2% in the year since plain packaging has come in.

What we can see as well is that the amount of illicit trade has grown rapidly in the first six months. Another KPMG report is due out in the coming weeks which will show what will happen for the next six months.

Who commissioned the report?

Mr. Steven Donaldson

The KPMG report was commissioned by the three main tobacco players in Australia. To be clear - David Crow said this to me - we were looking for an independent body. The company currently works for the Australian Government, the Irish Government and the Department of Health. A person in my shoes has to decide how to evaluate what is a difficult problem to estimate. I decided to choose a legitimate global consultancy company to put in place the best methodology. In Europe, the methodology used to evaluate the illicit trade is endorsed by the European Anti-Fraud Office, OLAF. It is a reputable company and I am asking the committee members to consider its submission on these grounds and to invite the company in if necessary. That is what is going on in Australia.

What we see in Australia at the moment is that there is a major growth in illicit whites available here. This surprised us a little because we had expected there to be more growth in the counterfeit trade. Counterfeit product is growing but the trade in illicit whites is growing faster. These include brands like Manchester which, the report states, has gone from a 0.3% share before plain packaging came in to a 1.3% share and up as high as 3.8% in Sydney. These are being smuggled in by triads and biker gangs throughout the country. The largest ever seizures in Australia took place last October. We know for certain that the black market has been thriving since plain packaging has come in. That is why I raise it as a problem for Ireland because Ireland has the largest rate of non-Irish duty paid products in the country in all of western Europe. It is a serious problem and I believe it is undermining health objectives. My colleague might talk about the international context of smuggling as well.

Please be brief.

Mr. Ronald Ridderbeekx

Thank you, I realise we are pressed for time. I will outline the international context around smuggling. It is a global problem. I will discuss the problem mainly in respect of Europe. A large number of people in our company are dedicated to helping law enforcement officials throughout the world to combat smuggling. In Europe we signed a voluntary agreement in 2010 with the European Anti-Fraud Agency, OLAF. The agreement runs for 20 years and is worth €200 million. I say as much to signify that we make a significant commitment to combat smuggling. That is to support our view that we want smuggling eradicated if possible, in the same way as we have an objective that we share with the committee to eradicate children's take-up of smoking.

I wish to emphasise why we are here. It is to talk about the plain packaging proposal, a proposal to remove branding from packs of cigarettes and other tobacco products. I contend that this is not the right mechanism to use to achieve the objectives of reducing smoking rates or to stop children from smoking.

We have seen the evidence from Australia. I agree that it is early days but the evidence from there does not lie. Smoking rates in Australia have not dropped and smuggling is on the rise. We must continue to monitor that situation but it supports the view that plain packaging is not the right way of achieving those objectives. All it will do is remove legitimately and legally registered trademarks which have value not only to companies but also to consumers, since it gives them reassurance around the origin and quality of the product they buy. Moreover, we believe pain packaging will encourage smuggling further. It appears to be doing so in Australia and we would be frightful that it would do the same in Ireland.

A number of round-robin questions were asked by several contributors. Will you respond to those before we move on to the next witnesses please?

Mr. Steven Donaldson

There was a question about profitability.

I asked that, along with several other questions.

Mr. Steven Donaldson

I wish to be very open about our profits in Ireland. We make approximately €7.9 million in Ireland. Some 87.4% of our total revenue goes to the Government in taxes and excise. We have pension contributions of approximately €3 million to consider. I am unsure where the figure of €227 million comes from but we have a 17% share of the market and that figure seems greatly overstated.

Do I smoke or not? Someone asked that question. I do not smoke regularly. I smoke only when I am out with some friends. I am not a regular smoker. Would I like my children to smoke? No, I know what the serious risks of smoking are so I would not like my children to smoke. I will educate them and I hope that some of the proposals that we have suggested relating to education in different countries can be introduced to ensure that children who grow up in Ireland are fully aware and are not suspect to any peer pressure to smoke. Clearly, at the moment, the education systems we have in place are not working as effectively as they could, because we have got a youth initiation rate. I commend some of the initiatives that have taken place, like the Exhale Session from the Irish Cancer Society which is exactly the type of peer pressure or peer influence programme that can work in Ireland. We have seen similar models work in Sweden, where they have a duo programme which I call on the committee members to consider. They have a big buddy system where a senior person works with a junior person or teenager and makes a commitment not to smoke for three years. They get loyalty cards and incentives and go to events off the back of them. These are the types of initiatives that I call on the committee to consider.

Questions were asked about branding overall and Vogue specifically. The Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, has raised the Vogue pink pack on several occasions as a matter of concern. That brand was researched among 20 to 35 year old female adult smokers who smoke a competitor brand - I do not intend to go into the branding. The brand is aimed at that group solely. There should be no access to any consumers under it. We have no research to indicate anyone other than adults females between the ages of 20 and 40 years are smoking that brand, to be clear. In the year and a half since its introduction the pink pack has not worked or generated any sales and has since been de-listed from the market.

Furthermore, under the tobacco products directive, TPD, that is coming forward 65% of the top of a pack will be a health warning. What we are effectively talking about is whether the bottom strip of 35% of the pack can carry legal trademarks. That format is also-----

I am sorry. We have to move on. We are under considerable pressure.

I asked a "Yes" or "No" question.

Since we are stuck for time, will the witnesses please be brief and respond to the questions asked by the members? Could you answer those questions, please?

I asked a question on the Charter of Fundamental Rights. I referred to specific sections of the charter.

I asked a "Yes" or "No" question. Do the members of the deputation agree that their products will kill half of their intended users?

I am asking them to respond.

I have asked Mr. Donaldson four direct questions but I have not got any answers yet.

Mr. Steven Donaldson

To be clear, we provide our ingredients list. Tobacco causes serious and fatal diseases.

They kill one in every two. Does Mr. Donaldson agree?

Mr. Steven Donaldson

I trust the public health authorities on that figure. I do not have any figure different to that one and I would not challenge it.

There was a direct question on the number of retail stores. There are approximately 110,000 jobs in the country involved in the sale of tobacco. Typically, 25% to 30% of a store's sales are in tobacco and ancillary purchases. That figure includes jobs in the industry itself.

E-cigarettes are very much a new thing in Ireland. Our company is investing approximately €200 million in research and development per year to try to come up with other products that will be alternatives to tobacco and to try to reduce the overall harm of tobacco. Several products are coming at the moment. I have been over to our research and develop facility in Southampton. More than 1,000 scientists are working there. In terms of e-cigarettes, many eminent medical professors have said this could be an opportunity for the future. I fully support the Minister of Health's intention at the moment that it should not be aimed at those under 18 years. I completely agree and I have written to him recently to support that.

Will the tobacco companies sue the State?

Thank you, Deputy. I am trying to chair the meeting. We have to move on.

I want to know. Will they sue the State?

Deputy Mitchell O'Connor, please, let me move on.

I asked a specific question on the charter. It is quoted in the submission that-----

Perhaps Mr. Meagher from John Player will come to your question. Thank you, Senator. Mr. Meagher, I remind you to be brief and only to respond to the questions that have been asked by members.

Since we are not going back to the previous speakers, will Mr. Ridderbeekx indicate whether he is a smoker? I would like an answer from each of the panel.

Mr. Ronald Ridderbeekx

I can quickly address a number of round-robin questions.

Could you simply answer that question please, Mr. Ridderbeekx?

Mr. Ronald Ridderbeekx

Yes, I am currently a smoker.

Would Mr. Meagher respond to the questions?

Mr. Andrew Meagher

I am not a smoker. I would not want my children to smoke. Smoking is for adults. I am very clear about that.

I want to be sure that I answer all the questions. In response to the question about profit, on a turnover of €420 million, €345 million goes to the Government in duty. We have a net profit of €19 million, of which we pay over €13 million to our pension fund. There are over 500 pensioners in the fund. We support that to the tune of over €1 million a month.

In response to some of the specific questions directed to me, Deputy Kelleher spoke about the need for the State to protect adults. I agree with that point too. I acknowledge he is not suggesting that we target children but the State must act. We fully agree the State must act but it must do so on the basis of real evidence but the evidence to date shows that its action has not been effective. That brings me to Deputy Ó Caoláin’s point. He noted that in my submission I said the current tobacco control approach is not working and he disagreed with me. In the past ten years smoking in public places, the sale of packets of ten and display have been banned. There have also been significant increases. Since then, incidence rates have remained stable, according to Eurobarometer. The price and regulation have gone and the illicit sales have gone up.

All the measurements of whether it is working are going north except the one that is the essence of the action, incidence. As defined by Eurobarometer, the European Commission’s way of measuring incidence, it stands at 29%. People talked about 22% but that is the office of tobacco control, OTC, measurement. The committee would expect us to quote independent sources. According to Eurobarometer 29% of adults were smoking in 2012, and 29% smoked in 2006. All those measures have not achieved any reduction in incidence. That is why we are very clear today that if we continue to think that banning is the way to go we will get the same result. We have to consider something other than ban after ban because they are not working. These are not our numbers. They are the European Commission’s numbers. We have to consider education and a different way. Banning it does not stop it. One can ban lots of things but this will not go away. It is necessary to educate-----

Can I interject and ask Mr. Meagher is he refuting the point that his company does not target children?

Mr. Andrew Meagher

I said at the outset and say very clearly again: we do not target children. Senator van Turnhout asked-----

Does Mr. Meagher dispute the Department of Health figure, that there has been a 10% reduction in smoking?

Mr. Andrew Meagher

I am quoting legitimate third party-----

I am asking a question.

Mr. Andrew Meagher

I do not know the details of the OTC-----

It was 33% in 1998 and it is now 22%.

Mr. Andrew Meagher

Just to be clear-----

All of those changes happened in that period.

Mr. Andrew Meagher

We can get into the detail of the methodology. It is a telephone survey. It is not as accurate as a face-to-face survey, which is what the European Commission did. I am quoting like for like. That is all I am saying. They are third party figures.

Senator van Turnhout asked-----

Can Mr. Meagher answer Senator Colm Burke’s question too about-----

Will Mr. Meagher answer mine?

Mr. Andrew Meagher

I would like to answer Senator van Turnhout because she asked could we give her access to marketing data. Yes. That access is available today. Under current legislation, the office of tobacco control can walk into my office and go through my files. That is available today and has been for several years. We have nothing to hide. Let me be very clear, this is available today. It could be happening right now, while we sit here - the OTC could be in our office. We have nothing to hide.

Will Mr. Meagher answer Senator Colm Burke’s question?

Mr. Andrew Meagher

That was the question about the intellectual property, IP, rights. I am not a lawyer. It is part of our submission. If it is not in the submission I will find the section under our Constitution but I am not a lawyer so I do not have that number.

There is a quote about the Charter of Fundamental Rights. What specific aspect of that charter is Mr. Meagher saying we will infringe if we go ahead with this legislation?

Mr. Andrew Meagher

I am not a lawyer and will not try to give the Senator a version of it. We will follow up later with the Senator. I would be happier to do that.

There was another question about suing the State or the potential to do so.

Mr. Andrew Meagher

Our property rights are enshrined in the Constitution. IP rights are property rights. The Government is looking to take those property rights away. There has to be an impact. There has to be some form or method of compensation. That is our view. It is clear that is not the view of some other people, and maybe not of some committee members. We do have property rights enshrined in the Constitution. If they are to be taken away there has to be some recognition of the loss of property rights.

The industry will sue the State.

Mr. Andrew Meagher

We are here today to engage on the plain packages. We are looking to-----

We are trying to stick to the heads of the Bill.

Is there not an argument that the State also has an obligation to protect the health of citizens, which takes priority over property rights?

Mr. Andrew Meagher

It certainly does.

The Senator has made his point.

Mr. Andrew Meagher

We are talking about evidence-based and proportionate legislation. We fully support the Government’s view that it must protect children and smokers. It should do so on the basis of evidence and with a proportionate response. We are not saying there should be no legislation but where is the evidence that plain packages will work? We do not believe it is there. We are not saying it will not come from Australia. It is not there yet. Committee members and the industry agree that it is not there yet so why the rush?

One cannot have property rights if the product one distributes causes deaths. No property rights attach in that situation.

Thank you, Senator.

Mr. Andrew Meagher

Maybe Dr. Gietz would like to answer.

Dr. Gietz, are you a medical doctor?

Dr. Axel Gietz

No I am an historian.

Thank you. You are an historian.

Dr. Axel Gietz

Yes, an historian. I do not think the intellectual property rights are up for grabs as a matter of principle because property rights are property rights. Companies like ours in the fast-moving consumer goods industry have three kinds of asset. These are, in no particular order, our people, our facilities and factories and our brands. We have invested a lot of money over a long time in each of these three. If one owns anything and somebody says, for whatever reason, it is a good idea to take it away from one, it is not an irrational or inappropriate reaction on our part to say we do not agree. Intellectual property rights are an important asset for us, as for any other industry in the fast-moving consumer goods sector.

As far as unintended consequences go, it has been pointed out that foreign investment in Ireland hinges on, among other things, the security of continuing to enjoy property rights, including the intellectual ones. I suggest this would send a very disturbing signal to many foreign direct investors into this country, including and foremost, those in the United States, which are the leading direct investors in this country. According to the American Chamber of Commerce in Ireland, 26% of Irish gross domestic product is based on American foreign direct investment.

Four American Congressmen sent a letter to this committee at the outset of these hearings indicating that property rights should be protected. In an article in The Irish Times it was said that these Congressmen would be invited to discuss this. Today is the last day of these hearings. Ours is the penultimate session. To my knowledge these men are not sitting outside. Not all aspects of unintended consequences and signals being sent-----

On a point of information-----

Dr. Axel Gietz

-----intellectual property.

Excuse me, on a point of information. The committee decides who comes in, not The Irish Times or anybody else.

Dr. Axel Gietz

That is perfectly fine.

On another point of information, in respect of other American companies, one in two users of Facebook do not die so I do not think we are comparing like with like.

Dr. Axel Gietz

I do not think the Vice Chairman’s analogy carries.

Dr. Gietz is the one making the point, with all due respect.

Dr. Axel Gietz

I will continue if I may. I am quite happy to answer the questions of the Deputies who have left the room. I do not smoke. I do not want my children to smoke. I do not want anybody’s children to smoke, including Deputy Catherine Byrne’s children. I want to make that quite clear. We can bandy about numbers for Germany. The safest source to use is the German Government. I have the documentation here. It indicates that over the past ten years the underage smoking rate has gone down from 27.5% to 11.7%.

They must have done something right in an environment where point of sale advertising and billboard advertising is still permitted, where there are only text health warnings on 30% or 40% on the side of the pack, where cinema advertising is still permitted. Something else must have worked to-----

Dr. Axel Gietz

Actually, taxes on tobacco products are lower in Germany than here-----

They have worked; I read the report.

Dr. Axel Gietz

They are lower-----

The levels have increased.

Dr. Axel Gietz

I think we should stick to the facts. The United States has been mentioned and the Centres for Disease Control is quite clear about the type of education. The young ladies from Tipperary who were here last week confirmed that it will work. It is not about spreading fear nor about informing that smoking is bad for one's health because everyone knows that. It is about addressing the triggers that get young people in a situation where they will accept their first cigarette. It is a case of making them resist these triggers such as peer pressure, family example, insecurity, low self-esteem, which are the elements of intelligent education that work, rather than fear-mongering when everyone knows that smoking is obviously not good for you.

Our involvement or alleged involvement in illicit trade is an international question I would like to knock on the head. When the Senator speaks of tobacco companies supplying the illicit market it is not the companies who are sitting here. It is the companies who are producing the product category that is called illicit whites. These are legitimate companies in the countries where they make these cigarettes, be it in Russia, in the Middle East, in other places. They are produced solely for the purpose of export-smuggling into high tax excise countries such as the UK and Ireland. The fact that they are locally legitimate companies does not mean that the trade is legitimate. To make my point clear, the illicit whites do not come from the companies who are here.

I wish to make a final comment. I firmly believe equating nicotine with heroin and cocaine flies in the face of common sense.

Mr. John Freda

I will answer some of the questions about profits. In 2012, we had a turnover of €670 million and we handed the Government €570 million in excise. Our net profits after all of our activities was €14.9 million. We are a market leader with 50% share of the market. I am not quite sure where this figure of €150 million is derived from because it is certainly not what I saw from the sum of the numbers that were being discussed here.

I was asked whether I smoke and I do not smoke. I was asked if I have children. Yes, I have children. One of my sons is flirting with smoking. He is 18 years. On the question of whether he started smoking before that age, yes, he did. On the question whether I want him to smoke, no, I do not. We have a conversation around his smoking and like any other family dealing with that subject, he is an 18 year old adult and he needs to be treated as such. He will make his choices based on that. He understands the risks, as I do, but I am not imposing my will on him. It is a risk he is managing himself.

On the question about the Silk Cut pack, as Mr. Steven Donaldson highlighted with regard to the Vogue pack, we have that product available as a slims pack which is targeted at adult females who understand the risks and who choose to smoke.

In reply to the question about ingredients, similar to what Mr. Donaldson said, our ingredients are totally visible for anyone who wishes to see what is contained in our products. We are very transparent in that way. We share the concern about the illicit trade and that concern is fuelled by the evidence. We see the evidence of that trade growing in Australia as a result of plain packaging and it is a concern. We have to recognise that Ireland is a country with the highest levels of illicit trade. We cannot ignore that fact, put it to one side and say that it is not relevant in this conversation.

Senator van Turnhout highlighted price as one of the key measures. One of the key impacts and opportunities for illicit trade and the reason criminals are involved is to undermine all of the health initiatives by leveraging price. Their price is under €4 for a packet of cigarettes sold on the black market. They prey on the underprivileged parts of our society which are the most vulnerable. The committee's reports highlight that these are the people most at risk and among whom the prevalence of smoking is highest. I do not think the illicit trade can be dismissed, be put it to one side and say it is not relevant in this conversation. We genuinely believe that plain packaging will make the situation worse. It will not address the public health objectives. The committee will have heard all of us refer to other incidences in other countries which fundamentally address youth smoking rates and deal with the key issues at the core which are peer pressure and availability. We are not dealing with the issues that are a problem in Ireland. I refer to access, for example. Children here can get hold of cigarettes far too easily. We need to establish a culture where a child cannot get his or her hands on cigarettes. However, that is not what is being achieved with plain packaging which is to put a plaster on the situation. We accept that we are regulated.

A point was made about how we are replacing our smokers. We accept that we are operating in a declining market. We operate in the legal side of this market. We accept that the market declines in line with the measures which are implemented - and rightly so - and we said so in our statement, such as the measures to educate smokers and to encourage smokers to stop smoking. We accept the market decline and we compete for what is left in the legal market which is the only thing that interests us. We were asked why are we opposed to plain packaging. We are opposed to plain packaging because it stops us from competing. We have nothing else left. We have no marketing tools and the pack is the only thing that allows the consumer to make an informed choice about what product they buy. That consumer is an adult smoker who understands the risks.

By Mr. Freda's own admission the slim packs, the menthol cigarettes, are targeted at women.

Mr. John Freda

At adult smokers, yes.

Women are half the population. What is the reason for targeting women? Women are often the main educators of young children in the home. Young children are inquisitive and will often root in handbags. Is there a particular reason why this product is targeted at women?

Mr. John Freda

I think the Vice Chairman does a discredit to women. Women have the right to choose and have an opportunity to select

I certainly believe that.

Mr. John Freda

We may develop the product and they may reject it. It actually is not a big seller in Ireland, at less than 1% share of this market. I understand the point but ultimately it is not a big seller in this market. There are female adult smokers who while understanding the risk choose to smoke a slim cigarette. They understand the risks and they are entitled to make that choice.

Is the only motivation for targeting women smokers to give them a choice?

Mr. John Freda

The motivation for us is to compete for the legitimate market, the legitimate Irish market and we want to compete fairly in that environment. We are only interested in adult female and male smokers who understand the risks. Both of those groups are entitled to choose.

In Mr. Freda's earlier testimony he spoke about the importance of education by families, communities and in schools.

Mr. John Freda

Absolutely.

Why, therefore, target the people who are the main educators of children? Mr. Freda referred to the greater influence of family habits compared to packaging. Why are women targeted?

Mr. John Freda

I think the Vice Chairman is implying that we indirectly target children through women. Is that what is being implied?

No. I did not say that.

Mr. John Freda

We are certainly not. A woman has a right to choose. It is a product that she can reject.

The reality is that the majority of Irish women who smoke, and who understand the risks thereof, do not smoke that product. They are not interested in it.

Mr. Michiel Reerink

The only question left for me to answer is whether or not I smoke. It is an easy question to answer - I quit smoking almost two years ago on the recommendation of some of my children.

We say well done to Mr. Reerink.

Mr. Michiel Reerink

Thank you very much, Deputy. To sum up our position today, I hope we have succeeded in explaining why we are concerned about a measure which will not impact on smoking rates and will not prevent children from starting smoking but will have unintended consequences in terms of fuelling the illicit trade in tobacco. The proposed measure will not affect smoking rates, but it will affect our ability to compete. Our objective is to maintain and grow our market shares, but this measure takes away our last branding opportunity. I remind members that the European directive will double the size of the health warning on the front of packets and increase the warning on the back by 50%. In other words, two thirds of both the front and back of packets will be given over to the warning, in large letters, that "Smoking kills". The remaining 35% of the pack is the only space available to us to indicate to consumers what brand they are choosing. That is what we are about here. We are not opposed to the measure because we are worried it will have an effect on smoking rates. On the contrary, we are sure it will not have an effect on rates and will not prevent children from starting to smoke. There are much better and proportionate ways of achieving that objective, as we have outlined today. We ask the committee to give serious consideration to those suggestions instead of introducing plain packaging in the belief that it will deter children from smoking.

Mr. John Mallon

As usual, smokers are being passed over in this debate, even though we are the ones affected by the proposal. The conversation is going on over my head, so to speak. Like Deputy Catherine Byrne, I am a father - in my case, to two children. I have taken the view with my children that I would treat them as I was treated growing up. I did not see the point in banning them from smoking or forbidding them to drink alcohol once they turned 18. At that point I gave them a free choice in the matter. I had alcohol and cigarettes at home and I allowed them to make up their own minds, but not before their mother and I talked to them about the dangers of both. Having no first-hand experience of the illicit drug trade, including the drugs like heroin, cocaine and so on to which reference was made during the meeting, I was unable to advise my children in that regard expect to say that from everything I could see, they were mood-altering, mind-altering and immediately dangerous substances.

On the other hand, smoking takes quite a long time to have an effect. There will be people jumping around and saying even one cigarette is deadly, but the reality is that they take years to impact on health. Tobacco is not a mind-altering or mood-altering substance. Unlike alcohol, people who use tobacco will not miss days of work because they cannot get out bed.

That is not true.

Mr. John Mallon

Let me continue. I am merely giving members the benefit of my experience and of the hundreds of discussions I have had with smokers. Reference was made earlier to the need to engage with smokers. The problem, as I see it, is that all of the restrictions, bans, penalties and impositions that smokers have endured, including high pricing and so on, do not amount to an engagement with smokers. It is always about talking at rather than to smokers. There is a huge chasm between the official line, as reflected in this committee, and the views of the many smokers I have met throughout the country. A member observed today that it is difficult to be a politician. Perhaps there is a general cynicism about the place but I certainly do not get the impression that smokers feel engaged with by Government. In my view, this lack of engagement is part of the reason that the numbers of smokers are not falling as quickly as members would like.

From a personal perspective, plain packaging makes no difference to me one way or the other. I smoke rolled tobacco, which I keep in a tin. However, this particular proposal is another aspect of the attempt to denormalise smokers, to make an ordinary citizen like me somehow abnormal for doing something which, for all my life, it has been quite normal to do. I had the right to decide to take up smoking and I have the right to quit. I have the freedom to make those decisions, as I do in regard to alcohol and all other lifestyle issues. There is far too much hysteria and drama around this topic. A bit of common sense is required and an emphasis on education for children. As it turned out, the education my wife and I gave our children was sufficient for both of them to decide against drinking and smoking. Moreover, I have seen no evidence, although I probably would not recognise it if I did, that either of them takes drugs. Applying some degree of common sense and intelligence to the discussion, rather than hysteria and name calling, would be far more beneficial. That is the view from the smokers' side.

I thank all the witnesses for giving their time to the committee. Their contributions will be very useful to us in our deliberations. I apologise for running significantly over time. We are obliged to suspend for 15 minutes for technical reasons, after which we will bring in the next set of witnesses.

Sitting suspended at 1.16 p.m. and resumed at 1.33 p.m.

I remind members and those in the Visitors Gallery to ensure that their mobile telephones are switched for the duration of this meeting as they interfere with the broadcasting equipment even when on silent mode. I apologise, particularly to the witnesses, for the late start.

We are considering the heads of the Bill dealing with tobacco plain packaging. As members are aware, the general scheme of the Public Health (Standardised Packaging of Tobacco) Bill 2013 was referred to the joint committee for consideration shortly before Christmas. We will now hear from witnesses from the Law Society of Ireland regarding their views on the proposed legislation in this regard. I welcome Mr. Ken Murphy, director general, and Mr. John P. Shaw, president of the Law Society of Ireland. They are very welcome to the meeting.

Before we commence I wish to remind them of the position regarding privilege. Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Mr. Shaw to make his opening statement.

Mr. John P. Shaw

I hope I will not find myself in need of privilege but I can come back to that. The Law Society of Ireland is the representative, educational and statutory regulatory body for solicitors in Ireland. I have the honour this year to be the president of the society, representing some 10,000 members the length and breadth of the country. They are practising in some 2,200 legal firms and they also act for the public service bodies, industry and other sectors. Indeed, 16% of our members now work in-house.

I am here today with perhaps the better known face of the Law Society, the director general, Mr. Ken Murphy. The Law Society welcomes the opportunity to come before this Oireachtas committee to elaborate on its intellectual property law concerns regarding the proposed Bill. Let me begin by making it perfectly clear that this society does not represent anybody other than its members. The society is not here to represent either directly or indirectly the view of the tobacco industry. We have accepted the invitation to attend today to consider exclusively the intellectual property law aspects of the proposed Bill. We do not claim to have any expertise in health policy.

The witnesses who appeared before the committee over the past three sessions, have, as Deputy Ó Caoláin said on one such occasion, come at it "from a variety of experiences and responsibilities in life", and so too does the Law Society. It should come as no surprise that many of the society’s members represent plaintiffs who are in legal action against both tobacco companies and the State in respect of smoking related injury. In addition, many members are working for, and alongside key State agencies that play a central role in the fight against illicit trade, including Revenue, Customs and Excise and the Garda Síochána. Some of our members represent those who have been accused of illicit trade. Naturally also some solicitors act as legal advisers to tobacco companies. Some members of the society work on a daily basis in intellectual property law as it applies to the entire gambit of industry sectors, in particular the food and drinks sector, engineering, information technology and pharmaceutical companies to name but a few.

For the avoidance of doubt, we are not here to defend the tobacco industry and are not, to use the expression, "in the pocket" of anyone. We fully accept that tobacco has had a disastrous impact on health. It is important to us then that the Law Society is not portrayed as representing anybody other than its members and the public interest which the profession serves. On this point, it should be noted, for the record, that the Law Society constantly participates in public consultations on a wide range of issues that affect the public and the profession. Our contribution and participation has been extensive, on issues from human rights to conveyancing, probate to criminal justice, and all forms of litigation. In addition to constant interactions with Government Departments and agencies, in the past two years alone, the Law Society has made a total of 20 formal submissions on issues ranging from complex insolvency law reforms, various criminal justice Bills and litigation reforms. The director general and I were in Leinster House yesterday for the conclusion of the Committee Stage of the Legal Services Regulation Bill in which of course we would be a stakeholder. Submissions made by the Law Society, represent the commitment of its 10,000 members to contribute to public discourse, bringing with them the benefit of their legal understanding and professional experiences.

We are concerned with the legal implications of the concept of plain packaging as such, and how it might affect the standing of intellectual property rights here in Ireland and abroad. That is to say, we have no issue with the policy objectives underpinning the Bill but we do have concerns regarding its impact on the intellectual property regime in this country. To put this in context, I would like to preface our substantive submission with the following brief comments. These are statistics we have put together to show our concern. The Office for Harmonisation in the Internal Market in September 2013, stated that along with Germany and Hungary, “Ireland has the highest share – 40.8% - of trade mark-intensive value added in their GDP". The above report also states that of all the European states, "the highest share of jobs in IPR-intensive industries generated by companies from outside the EU is to be found in Ireland, at almost 18%". EUROSTAT, the statistical office of the European Union, confirms that there are currently 138,000 people working in knowledge intensive industries and high-end manufacturing in Ireland, such as pharmaceuticals and technology companies where IP assets are their key asset. This is an increase of 5.3% since 2008.

We note that no regulatory impact assessment has yet been prepared on the proposed Bill. We look forward to it to the extent that it will consider what impact the proposals will have on rights under intellectual property law in Ireland. Clearly it is the proper and important task of the committee and the Oireachtas to strike that careful balance between protecting and maintaining intellectual property law with public health and other relevant public policy considerations. Our submissions aim to assist the committee by outlining key legal concerns and potential ramifications of plain packaging proposals.

In February 2013, the society stated and here today again states that:

A fully functioning intellectual property system, which operates consistently and transparently across all sectors and provides certainty for intellectual property owners, investors, international partners and traders and members of the public, is vital to the future of both the EU and Irish economies. Reforms which have the effect of undermining that system should be considered very carefully.

We then go on consider the constitutional issues and our submission sets out a key consideration.

The Irish Constitution requires the State to protect property rights and the Irish Supreme Court has previously struck down legislative provisions as unconstitutional where they involved restrictions on the exercise of property rights or a deprivation of rights all together without compensation for such interference.

In relation to restrictions on property rights, we do not underestimate the crucial role of the legislature in striking that balance, that principle of proportionality. Our submission emphasises the challenge for the Oireachtas. The test of proportionality, as developed by the High Court and the Supreme Court, requires, first, that the restriction on use of the trademark must have an objective of sufficient importance to warrant interference with the property right in the mark; second, that the impairment of this right should be minimal as possible; and, finally, the effects on the constitutionally protected right should be proportionate to the objectives sought to be attained.

Were this matter to come to court, it is likely that the court would be asked to consider evidence available regarding the effectiveness of plain packaging on smoking habits as against the range of other actions that can be considered to minimise or eradicate smoking. Some of these have been highlighted by other witnesses, such as taxation, educational and cessation initiatives, sanctions and penalties, etc.

Ireland is a signatory to the World Trade Organization, WTO, and specifically the TRIPS, Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights, agreement. Under that agreement, we have committed to respect a number of key provisions that impact on the nature of trademark rights. We have outlined four of them but for the sake of brevity I do not intend to read through them, save to say that there is a provision that the Government can use the health consideration in order to impact on property rights but it must have regard to the ownership of those property rights. We then go on to consider the potential exposure for the State. The Law Society is concerned that the extent of interference envisaged by the proposed Bill may give rise to potential actions against the State, and Europe under the provisions of the TRIPS agreement.

The Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union is binding on member states under the Lisbon Treaty and Article 17 of the charter guarantees rights to property, expressly including intellectual property rights. The European Court of Human Rights has held that property for this purpose includes intellectual property and has distinguished between a straightforward deprivation of property and restricting the use of the property in the general interest. Consequently, the State runs a risk - and it is that, a risk – of going beyond regulation and restricting rights which affect the substance of a trademark, in contravention of our international obligations.

The Law Society submits that restrictions of property rights should be carefully considered, in addition to all other approaches which are less severe but might be likely to have similar consequences. The court will ask the question, applying an objective test, whether the decision maker – that is, the Oireachtas – could reasonably have concluded that the interference was necessary to achieve the legitimate aims recognised by the convention. The society’s intention today is to underline the need for careful and robust examination of the options available.

The Law Society submits a further concern in respect of our European obligations, namely, that the introduction of plain packaging may give rise to a challenge that it acts as a barrier to the treaty-based freedom of movement of goods. Put simply, products sold in another members state, would not have the same access to Irish markets as a result of the Bill’s provisions. Ireland is entitled to rely on a derogation on the grounds of public health, but should anticipate a challenge on that ground.

In terms of the loss of trademark rights, the fundamental purpose of a registered trademark is to distinguish goods or services of one undertaking from another. If a trademark ceases to be used, it cannot continue to operate as a distinguisher of origin, quality, etc. Consequently, and as currently framed, the “use it or lose it” rule could result in a reduction in intellectual property value for companies, which may give rise to compensation claims payable by the State. The Law Society is concerned that unintended consequences could result not only in claims against the State, but could also adversely impact on businesses and employment. The role of the intellectual property, IP, in foreign direct investment should not be underestimated, and perhaps should be included in the regulatory impact assessment of the Bill.

Tobacco smoking, with its destructive effects on young people – on all people – and the burden it presents for the health sector, is an emotive issue. The basis of our appearance here today is to draw attention to the potential impact of the Bill to the regard in which Ireland is held internationally in respect of intellectual property and to set out generally some key legal concerns for the committee to consider. The general scheme of the Bill gives rise to unavoidable legal concerns of both an Irish and EU character. We respect the task that the committee has before it. We are available to assist with any questions in any way we can.

I thank the witnesses for their presentations. I read the submissions which will be very useful going forward. I convey the apologies of Deputy Ó Caoláin as he had business elsewhere in the House.

I hope I can benefit from the time allowed. Mr. Shaw and Mr. Murphy are very welcome. I will start first with the submission. It was clearly outlined that it had come from a committee within the Law Society. I looked up the membership of the committee and the links. I then contacted the committee to confirm the declaration of interests we received because among the submissions we requested, point 5 clearly outlined what we expected from a declaration of interests. We had to request the declaration of interests, which we received for the intellectual property law committee and that is all I can talk about now. I am surprised because as a Member of the Seanad I must declare any interests I have. When I speak in the Seanad, I declare I am chair of Early Childhood Ireland. I get zero payment for that but I still declare it. The most polite description of the declaration of interests we received is that it is opaque. It does not show the clear links that exist. If someone can clearly outline when they have a conflict, I expect that legal people will argue for different sides. I do not expect that members of the Law Society have no links but I am surprised at how loosely worded the declaration is. Yet, if anyone takes any time to look at the membership of the committee we can see clear links, not just from the companies, that the individual solicitors are clearly working. It is accepted that solicitors can take business but I take issue with the fact that they cannot declare it.

In the declaration it says that one member of the committee was previously employed by P.J. Carroll and Company but he was not a member of the committee while so employed. My question is whether the Law Society has a concern about his previous role in connection with the submission that was made on behalf of the Law Society and how he became a member. What expertise did he bring forward to qualify him to be a member of the committee? What I have seen throughout the hearings we have held is that the tentacles of the tobacco industry are everywhere. We are seeing the same sentences again and again when we receive certain submissions. I want to be assured of the true impartiality that is being put forward. The reason I asked the question about the declaration of interests is because of the reference in the submission to smuggling and counterfeit products. I would have thought that was outside the remit of expertise of the committee on intellectual property law. That is what sparked my question on declarations of interest.

The High Court in Australia held that there was no acquisition of intellectual property rights, as the state did not receive any benefit. If we look at cases in the Irish example, the reality is that they have all been to do with land. The cases all related to land and involved compulsory purchase orders. The State has already limited intellectual property rights on advertising and putting health warnings on cigarette packets. It is a justified and proportionate restriction on the use of trademarks. The State is not proposing to extinguish any rights. Is that the understanding of the Law Society? Will the State extinguish the right or is it about the State restricting and limiting? The State has a responsibility for the common good and also to ensure the public health. The State will receive no financial benefit from doing that. I wonder what the merits of a case would be.

First, I had better declare my interest in that I am a member of the Law Society. I wish to raise the issue of property rights in terms of where the State is taking action that involves public health.

Submissions the committee received over the past number of weeks clearly indicate that 5,000 people are dying per annum as a direct result of smoking. I stated this morning that since the Surgeon General in the United States published his report in 1964, some 250,000 have died in this country as a direct result of smoking. Does the State have an obligation to take every possible action to protect the health of its citizens that takes precedence over property rights?

I raised this second issue already this morning. The legislation dealing with the ESB that was introduced involved rights to go over land and even though I might be a landowner, I cannot restrict the ESB from going over my land because it was established that there was a need to get electricity supply to every household in the country. In that case, the landowner's property rights are being infringed upon. In this case, not only in this decision by the Department of Health but in a number of its decisions to reduce the numbers smoking, we are constitutionally obliged to do everything possible to protect people's health. I do not understand how property rights could take precedence over the rights of people to live and the right to ensure that we can do everything possible to remove the risks. Will the Law Society representatives deal with that issue?

The other matter I am a little concerned about is that there is no submission from the Law Society setting out the obligations of the State to reduce the health risks attached to smoking. The Law Society has told the committee about intellectual property rights, but what about people's right to live and to ensure that their lives are not at risk in any way? If a drug was being sold in a pharmacy in the morning and it was identified that this would cause death, the State would be obliged to take immediate action to have that drug withdrawn. The Law Society has not dealt with that in its submission. I am talking about bringing balance to the submission. Why not make a submission to us on the obligations of the State to do something in that area?

I thank the Law Society delegation for their presentation. I ask their professional opinion on whether the tobacco companies have a credible argument based on the extinguishing of IP rights. I heard them speak of a risk and I want to know if there would be reasonable grounds for suing the State over this issue. If so, how much would be involved and are there comparable cases of which they are aware?

I listened to my colleagues and I have read the presentations. It seems that the constitutional cases that have been taken have been to do with land but Articles 40.3.2° and 43 of the Constitution recognise that in a civil society property rights have to be regulated by principles of social justice and in accordance with the common good. The common good will be to protect the health of the Irish people. I am not quite sure how that can apply and I ask for their professional opinion.

I also want their professional opinion on how Ireland's name and trademark is recognised in America. A number of American committees and business organisations have written to the Chairman to set out their concerns. Are their views credible that there is a risk of litigation attached to the proposed legislation? Is that risk of litigation real?

I thank the delegation for attending. I do not have a legal background and I apologise if the question appears stupid. I gather from their proposal that everybody has a constitutional right to their property and if the matter ever gets to court, the State would have to prove that the objective hoped to be achieved will be achieved and also that it is more achievable in this way rather than using the string of other measures that are already available to us, and that in doing so it would have to be sufficiently important to warrant the interference with somebody's intellectual property rights. The objective of this is to save people's lives and to stop children from starting smoking, which seems to be the main objective of the tobacco industry. That is sufficiently important to warrant the interference. The measure of the Supreme Court case judgment would be the evidence. If plain packages are introduced on 1 January next, one cannot take a case on 3 January next because the evidence will not have been allowed to develop and flourish. How long would it be before the Supreme Court would state that it needed to give this six months, a year or five years so as to test and prove the case? No doubt a case is coming. What would be the timescale for the Supreme Court to state it needed a certain amount of time to see whether the intended actions materialise?

Does Deputy Kelleher want to come in here?

I do not want to be repetitive. I read the Law Society's submission with interest and the submissions of the various other stakeholders in this pre-legislative consultation.

I assume the representatives are here because they are advocates not of the tobacco industry, but of the protection of intellectual property rights. I assume that is their focus. However, in their submission they strayed into areas such as smuggling. I am not aware of their expertise on smuggling, but I assume it is not to the fore of their expertise and we will stick with the law as it is. While they are entitled to have a view on smuggling, I would suggest that there are some inaccuracies in it. The committee will be aware, for example, that the tobacco companies are part and parcel of smuggling in the sense that most tobacco smuggled into this country is made legitimately by these tobacco companies in other jurisdictions where they flood the market which cheap cigarettes, making it financially viable for smugglers to bring them into this country. That is what is happening. It is not that there are factories all over the world making illegal cigarettes. They are being made legally by these companies, dumped into Third World markets where they flood the market and are then smuggled into here. That is the illicit trade and that is the way it works. It is not that cigarettes are being made in bamboo huts in far-flung parts of the world. They are being made in sophisticated factories throughout the First World. They should be conscious of that when making their views known.

On IP itself, from the Law Society's perspective, the only court from which we can take precedents on this issue is the Australian High Court. The Australian Government's legislative programme was challenged by the tobacco companies and it eventually ended up in the High Court in Australia which, I suppose, would be equivalent to our Supreme Court. The court found in favour of the Australian Government. I am trying to tease this out. Could Mr. Shaw explain what the court found in favour of? Did it find that the Australian Government had a right possibly to usurp or even undermine the intellectual property rights of individual companies for the greater good? Was it, in the context of the greater good being the real issue here, that the state was entitled in certain circumstances to protect its citizens by usurping or overriding the intellectual property rights? I am trying to get a flavour of Mr. Murphy's and Mr. Shaw's interpretation of that issue, bearing in mind they could act for companies that may take this State to court as well. I would like to know what would be their defence or argument.

Following on from Deputy Kelleher's question, if the tobacco industry was to take a case against the State, am I correct in thinking that some of the Law Society's members would represent the tobacco industry?

By his own admission in his testimony before us, Mr. Shaw stated that the Law Society has no expertise in health policy.

I would like to know more about why the society has decided to make a submission on this issue considering that when this committee dealt with other constitutional matters, including the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill, it decided not to make a contribution. I would be interested in hearing the society's motivation for appearing now and not then.

Mr. John P. Shaw

I will start with the questions on the integrity of the society and its committee. I assure the members that I am absolutely satisfied there is no interference nor is there any connection whatsoever with anybody in the tobacco industry regarding the manner in which this is being prepared. Our committee is appointed annually by the incoming president after consultation with the outgoing chairman. Approximately three pages of questions are raised. It is asked whether new people are required and what is needed. It is organised on the basis of the speciality of the committee. I was involved in the appointment process in September of last year and I had no regard whatsoever to the tobacco industry or the make-up of the committee as it related to that industry. What I wanted to know was whether the people on the committee had expertise in intellectual property law and that they would do work that was valuable to the society. Those are the criteria used.

I do not want to get too legalistic about the declaration but I read through it in detail. The declaration we made was intended to be of help by way of pointing out that there were people whom members might think are connected to the tobacco industry to some degree, be it remotely or otherwise. If it is considered loose, I accept the committee's description. However, the intention is as I have described. I reviewed it because I wanted to see exactly what it stated. If I were considering it again, I might just say the Law Society, as it stands, did not have to make any declaration. That is being overly legalistic in regard to the matter and I would not even go there. It is not worth doing so as we would be wasting time. I genuinely believe we made an honest attempt to disclose fully any interest of any person connected with the making of the submission to the committee.

With regard to the counterfeiting issue, I take Deputy Kelleher's point on smuggling. Counterfeiting and smuggling are, perhaps, two different issues in terms of the way we examine intellectual property law. Intellectual property lawyers have an interest in protecting their clients' interest in combating counterfeiting. I accept that when the submission was made, we were not aware of the evidence that this committee has since learned. The committee heard evidence this morning from the tobacco industry on the matter. We were not aware of that. The committee has heard evidence from the Garda Síochána and Customs and Excise that they do not anticipate any significant difference. We accept that evidence and we have no reason to go against it. However, the reason people would have examined the counterfeiting issue in respect of intellectual property law was because it came under that umbrella, but it was not by any means their main point.

Let me move on to property rights and Senator Colm Burke's point, particularly in respect of the ESB. Neither Mr. Murphy nor I have expertise in intellectual property and we would not advise people who are looking for advice thereon. We have general legal qualifications. I, in particular, have dealt with cases involving claims against the ESB for the loss of property rights consequent to its having put pylons over property. The pertinent distinction concerned whether the property's use was affected. It was deemed that if there was an existing use, such as farm use, it was not adversely affected, but that if there was planning permission and development potential, it was compensated. It was the deprivation of use that attracted compensation, not the taking away of the property. I am jumping a little in that regard because I believe asking us to deal with the question on the Australian case is a little unfair because we do not know enough about it. We are not experts in Australian law. We are advised that the Australian provision in regard to the constitution concerns the acquisition by the state of the property. There would be no such requirement here before one would be entitled to receive compensation of some degree.

The nuanced position we would make on the case that might be bought is not so much that it would be a question of rights being taken away. As I understand it, the heading of the Bill provides that the non-use would be considered to be a proper purpose. The non-use of the trademark would be considered to be a proper purpose to keep the trademark alive and on the register. However, the way it would work out with the courts here is that a case would be brought contending legislation was introduced that did not provide properly for the payment of compensation for the deprivation of the right, with the risk that the court might say it is unconstitutional. If I were asked to have an angle on it – I am not an intellectual property lawyer – that would be the one I would tackle in this jurisdiction. However, there are other courts the industry can go to.

On the question as to whether it is likely that proceedings will be brought, the Minister for Health himself said he would be absolutely astounded if the tobacco companies did not bring a case challenging this legislation in this jurisdiction. I would certainly support that view. They will not let this happen without doing anything about it. It would be relatively cheap for them to take on a case here as opposed to the United States or areas with other larger population bases where profits may be significantly higher. The damages and costs here could be significantly lower. These are just factors that are running through my head as I think about this. I am not in a position to advise. I am not sure what other questions arose.

Mr. Ken Murphy

All rights in the Constitution are subject to the common good. Some testing of proportionality is fundamental. A test of proportionality is imported into Irish law from other jurisdictions, particularly European ones and Canada, and the European Court of Human Rights.

There is a very good statement in a decision of a former president of the High Court, Mr. Justice Costello, in Heaney v. Ireland, 1994. It looks to the European Court of Human Rights and Canadian jurisprudence. Mr. Justice Costello said in the course of this judgment that the means chosen must pass the proportionality test, in respect of which he identified three elements. The means must be rationally connected to the objective and not be arbitrary, unfair or based on irrational considerations; impair the right as little as possible; and be such that their effects on rights are proportional to the objective. The key issue is that while a forum like this looks to evidence, it is naturally a political forum where opinion has currency also. Opinion would not have currency in court. A court would make a decision based on evidence. Mere assertion would not be sufficient and evidence would have to be required. It is a question of determining the exact evidence. If the Australian experience were being cited in justification for or support of the legislation, the evidence from Australia would have to be capable of being given in such a manner that it could be tested, cross-examined and accepted one way or the other.

Deputy Doherty asked how long it would take for that to occur. I cannot say. It would ultimately be a matter for advice. Neither the current Law Society members nor I are predicting the outcome of any legal challenge. We are not seeking to do so. Clearly, it would be a matter of the evidence and legal arguments made at the time. As the Minister for Health has indicated, he believes there is little doubt there will be a legal challenge. Such a measure, being introduced for the first time in the northern hemisphere, namely, in the European Union, and the consequences if it were to be taken as a precedent elsewhere, would mean the stakes would be very high. We could anticipate a legal challenge. The concern of the Law Society has had is that intellectual property rights and their significance in this debate should not be lost or passed over on the basis of the understandable and overwhelming concern of members of a health committee for health issues. It is natural that this should be the case but it should not submerge the proper consideration of the intellectual property rights issues that would form part of an assessment by a court. As the president said in his opening statement, we in the Law Society were quite concerned that, somehow or other, we were being lumped together with, seen as apologists or Trojan horses for, or regarded as representative of the tobacco industry or tobacco interests. That is not the case. We are simply here because we believe intellectual property law is important, including for Ireland Inc. The Law Society's submission would be pretty similar if the proposal were on foodstuffs, alcohol or some other measure.

It is not specific to tobacco. I may not have answered all of the questions that were asked. I will be happy to come in again.

I want to come back to the question of clear evidence. If there is clear evidence that a product is causing death, how can the manufacturers of that product acquire a right? That question needs to be dealt with from a legal point of view. I do not understand how such a company can acquire a right. All the evidence confirms that this product is causing death.

I thank the witnesses for clarifying that the members of the committee are appointed on an annual basis. I asked a specific question about a member of the committee who has worked for P.J. Carroll and Company Limited. Can the witnesses tell me how he became a member of the committee? Does his previous role concern them? They suggested in their submission that Ireland is proposing to extinguish intellectual property rights. I have put it to them that I feel we are proposing to limit or restrict such rights in the same way we did when we prohibited billboard advertising and introduced health warnings. I do not believe we are trying to extinguish those rights. I agree with the witnesses that we should look at intellectual property rights. As a committee, we have a role in examining every aspect and angle of this issue. It is great to have the witnesses here. However, I do not agree with the contention that this measure would extinguish intellectual property rights. What aspects of this measure constitute the extinguishing of these rights, when previous initiatives have merely limited or restricted them?

I hear what the Law Society is saying about the need to protect intellectual property rights. Can the witnesses help this committee by telling us where they would defend from if they were on the other side? Would they defend from the Constitution or from what has happened in Australia? I would like to hear that advice.

This goes to show that when politicians, barristers, lawyers and solicitors are in the same room, there are several outcomes. I emphasise at the outset that intellectual property and trademark rights are critical to this economy. Of course it is of huge significance for such rights to be defended and vindicated. International software companies have made huge investments in this country. This area is of importance both in terms of inward investment and export. The protection of intellectual property rights is a given.

Would the witnesses not agree that there is an obligation on the State to vindicate the rights of its citizens by protecting their lives? We have constitutional law and we have commercial law. I suppose that is where we have the conflict. Our obligation is to try to ensure we protect the health of our citizens. As responsible politicians, we certainly do not want to usurp or undermine trademarks and intellectual property rights, which are critical components of the commercial life of this country. We must act in a manner that protects the lives of our citizens. The first obligation of every state is to protect the lives of its citizens. Clearly, we have a dichotomy or a debate in that regard. I am quite definite that if we invited the witnesses into another room, or invited them in under another guise, they would have a different view. Let us be honest - that is why they are professionally involved in this business. I am not dismissing that. I am pointing out the reality. I would like the witnesses to provide a little context by referring to this committee's obligation to try to vindicate the health and life of citizens. That is primarily what this legislation is about - no more and no less. It is certainly not about trying to attack or undermine intellectual property rights.

Two of the questions I asked were not answered. I will refresh the witnesses' memories. Why has the Law Society tried to come in on this constitutional right rather than the constitutional right we discussed last year in the context of the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill? If these companies bring an action against the State, will members of the Law Society represent them?

I would like to set out some of the context to this debate from the perspective of the Joint Committee on Health and Children. Dr. Gietz of John Player & Sons Limited had a great deal to say earlier about intellectual property. He referred to what a ruling like this could do to our reputation abroad in the context of the significant role foreign direct investment plays in Ireland. We are not talking during this session about a benign industry. We are talking about where one in two users die. I may have been somewhat flippant when I said that one in two users of Facebook do not die, but I think it illustrates the point I am making. I am trying to put this debate in context by emphasising that the primary objective of this committee is to protect the health of the Irish public. Perhaps the witnesses can respond to those points.

Mr. Ken Murphy

I will make a point for illustration purposes. I would not like it to be misinterpreted as something I am proposing. The most severe measure the Oireachtas could take with regard to tobacco would be to ban it completely. The reality is that this is a legal product, even if it does have terrible health consequences. Balances are struck by the Oireachtas in terms of what is possible. Of course it has to be subject to what is legally possible. Ireland has very strong property rights in the Constitution. They have not been tested in the context of a measure like that proposed in this instance. I am not seeking to predict the outcome of it when I say it is certainly a concern. I was taken by Deputy Kelleher's strong support for the maintenance of intellectual property rights. I assure the committee that I am being jocose when I say that purely from the self-interest of the legal profession, we would be encouraging the Oireachtas to enact this legislation. The amount of litigation work that would be made in courts everywhere would be enormous.

I would like to return to the Chairman's question about the invitation that was made to the society with regard to the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill. As we said in our original submission, the Law Society has made approximately 20 submissions on legislation over recent years. We do this all the time across a huge range of areas. In addition, we get individual requests from Government Departments and we make submissions to them. We get letters from Ministers looking for our views. Generally speaking, our views are welcome and largely uncontroversial. It is pretty unique for views expressed by a Law Society committee to be as controversial as these views have been. They were not intended to be controversial. Last year's Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill related to an area that is notoriously controversial and very divisive. The society took the view that it could not take a public position on the matter in the absence of an internal debate within the profession, which would probably have been extremely divisive. We had no mandate to take a position one way or another on the underlying issues in that legislation, which are deeply polarising. That was unique, in my experience, because it was the first time the society declined to make a submission when invited to do so. As far as I can recall, it was the only time this happened. It is a unique issue, in many respects. One might not agree with the view we took on the matter at the time.

I asked about how would a case might be defended.

Mr. Ken Murphy

We could not say that without knowing what evidence would be adduced. I think the actual evidence from Australia, as opposed to the opinion from Australia, would be critical.

Mr. John P. Shaw

It would be a question of timing and of when the case would be brought. Someone asked how long the Supreme Court would take and how long it would take for evidence to be adduced from Australia. That would beg the question from the Supreme Court about how a decision was made in the absence of evidence. That is the flaw in the argument from that point of view. I am not making that argument. If the Supreme Court looks at this, it will not ask how much time one wants to find the evidence, but will ask how one arrived at this decision and with what evidence.

Mr. Ken Murphy

Ultimately, the motivation of the Oireachtas would not be in question. It would be assumed the Oireachtas was motivated by the common good. The real question would relate to whether there is evidence to suggest this measure will actually have the effect claimed for it. That would be balanced against the entitlement to property rights. Those who would bring a case would attempt to show this entitlement had been seriously affected.

Does Mr. Murphy think it should be referred directly to the Supreme Court?

Mr. Ken Murphy

The question of whether an Article 26 reference is wise always arises. In the case of an Article 26 reference, one tends to get an abstract and slightly academic result. As legal practitioners, we tend to use the word "academic" pejoratively. It is not intended to offend anyone here. One gets a debate like that found in a student debating chamber, as distinct from something that is based on real evidence. The other issue relating to an Article 26 reference is that a measure which is challenged and upheld by the Supreme Court is immune to subsequent challenge. A judgment call always has to be made when deciding whether to make an Article 26 reference.

If Mr. Murphy was advising this committee, what would he do?

Mr. Ken Murphy

The first thing I would do is review its evidence.

How can someone acquire a right if that product causes death?

Mr. John P. Shaw

Senator Colm Burke compared it to a drug that causes death and argues that it should be taken off the market. If one took it clear off the market, we would probably not be here on an intellectual property law basis. If one said that people are not allowed to smoke and to introduce cigarettes, we would probably be here talking about it with a human rights committee but we would not be talking about intellectual property law. It is the incremental change that requires balancing between the two rights. I have no issue with the contention that the health of the nation takes priority over intellectual property rights but I think the law says that one cannot just railroad over them but must have some balancing exercise between them.

My argument concerns whether one can acquire a right when the product one is selling causes death.

Mr. Ken Murphy

They have the right to market and sell this product. They are allowed to do so by the Oireachtas and governments and states everywhere. It is a legal product.

It is done in a very curtailed way because billboards and advertising in shops are banned. It is very restricted. Deputy Catherine Byrne indicated that she would like to speak. I will then go to Senator van Turnhout.

I said this morning that every time I come here, I listen and learn. Sitting on this committee is an education. Reading about copyright, one can see that it is all about the design, package, graphics and colour. We are not talking about a designer handbag, pair of runners or tracksuit. I will read a piece from a survey carried out by the Irish Cancer Society because it sums up why we should bring in plain packaging. We are all singing off the same hymn sheet. It is not just the cigarette. It is the packaging. It is the whirls on the package and the colour. They look fabulous and one wants to have them sitting on the table to say that one owns them. That sums it all up for me. This is not about whether people should have the right to market certain things that lead to people's deaths. That is what it is about for me.

I asked about the membership of the committee. I could go through several members of the committee where I have questions and where I feel there should have been a clearer declaration but I am really concerned about one specific member. Do the speakers have a similar concern? How did he become a member of the committee?

In its submission, the society said that Ireland is proposing to extinguish intellectual property rights. I said to the speakers that we have banned billboard advertising and increased our health warnings so what Ireland is proposing to do is to restrict or limit these rights. I do not agree with the use of the word "extinguish". How did the speakers come to that conclusion?

Mr. John P. Shaw

I thought I had answered the question about the appointment of the individual member of the committee. I was the president under whose watch he was appointed. I explained the process we went through. I was not aware of his connection with the tobacco industry and I have to say that had I been aware back in September, it would not have stopped me from appointing him to that committee. There is no question regarding his integrity or anything relating to that issue. I would not want that to be an issue here. That committee has 17 members. There are 27 committees in the Law Society so the degree of oversight is a question of whether they have the expertise, are they known to other members and are they considered to be of good standing.

In respect of the second question, I take the Senator's point regarding the use of the word "extinguish" and the point in respect of what is left relating to the trademark. As I understand it, all that is left of the trademark is this bit that will now be removed from the packaging. If one takes it that this is the case, effectively, the trademark for useful purposes is extinguished. I do not want to get caught up in the word but if one takes away 65% of the package, and they have been stopped from advertising elsewhere under other regulations, and this is all that remains to them, the trademark is effectively redundant. I know it is not legally redundant. I do not know why they have not challenged it previously. It was incremental and perhaps they thought they could live with what was there. The Minister is saying he would be astonished if they did not challenge this one but it does seem that the trademark is effectively gone. There is nothing there to distinguish one from the other.

I believe it is limiting.

Mr. John P. Shaw

I would not disagree with the Senator's view. It is only a question of degree.

If the tobacco companies bring a challenge against the State, will members of the Law Society represent the tobacco industry?

Mr. John P. Shaw

Members of the Law Society represent everybody in every single case, including people accused of murder and rape.

Even though the World Health Organization believes in plain packaging?

Mr. Ken Murphy

As a matter of law, the decision will be made by the courts, not by the World Health Organization.

I thank our witnesses for their very informative presentations and for giving up their time to come in here today. It will be very useful as we conclude our deliberations over the coming weeks.

The joint committee adjourned at 2.25 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 18 February 2014.
Top
Share