Joint Committee on Health and Children debate -
Thursday, 4 Dec 2014

Best Practice Access Guidelines: Irish Wheelchair Association

Vice Chairman

I remind members, visitors and those in the Visitors Gallery to ensure that their mobile phones are switched off for the duration of this meeting as they interfere with broadcasting equipment, even when in silent mode.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

With the formalities out of the way, on behalf of the committee I welcome Mr. Chris Hoey, Ms Dolores Murphy, Mr. Vijoy Chakraborty and Ms Bridget Boyle to the meeting and I ask them to make their opening statements.

Mr. Chris Hoey

I thank the Vice Chairman and members of the committee for the invitation to today’s meeting to discuss the matters highlighted around accessibility within the built environment in the recently published document by the Irish Wheelchair Association, Best Practice Access Guidelines – Designing Accessible Environments. In particular, I extend my gratitude to Deputy Seamus Healy, who attended a local launch of these guidelines in Thurles and arranged this invitation to allow me to raise before this committee the vitally important issue of access within the built environment.

I would like to introduce my colleagues who worked with Irish Wheelchair Association, IWA, members and staff to develop the third edition of the access guidelines. Dolores Murphy is the IWA’s access and housing officer. Bridget Boyle is the regional access co-ordinator for the eastern region. Vijoy Chakraborty is the IWA’s senior occupational therapist. Additionally, I would like to recognise the IWA staff in the Visitors Gallery, who worked on developing this edition of the access guidelines and the large number of IWA members and staff who are following this session online in one of the IWA’s 57 resource outreach centres.

The Irish Wheelchair Association was founded in 1960 and is a national organisation dedicated to the achievement of full social, economic and educational integration of people with disabilities as equal, independent and participative members of the community. The IWA has a nationwide network of 20,000 members and employs in excess of 2,000 staff to support members to live independently within their local community. The question of access for people with limited mobility and wheelchair users is the single biggest issue to impact on individual lives. Without good accessibility, the ability of people to live independently and to be treated as equal is severely impacted on.

In 2009, the IWA was given a mandate by its membership to develop the first edition of the best practice access guidelines. A second edition, incorporating updated standards and new guidelines, was published in 2010. Since 2010 we have undertaken a number of initiatives on access and worked with many local authorities during the review of Part M of the building regulations to extend the IWA's best practice access guidelines. We have also worked on many high-profile builds over recent years, the most notable being the Aviva Stadium at Lansdowne Road and Terminal 2 at Dublin Airport. Other examples of our work include the regeneration of Grafton Street in Dublin and Portlaoise hospital.

There have, therefore, been many successes for the IWA in improving access within the built environment. However, these improvements have been largely piecemeal, on individual projects and where the IWA was invited to participate on building projects because we became aware of the building project at an early stage or due to personal contacts that existed between the organisation undertaking the building project and the IWA. The objective from this point on is to encourage systemic change to ensure that good access is at the core of planning for new builds and on building projects to renovate existing buildings.

To develop our access guidelines, a number of guiding principles were followed. We recognised that there are minimum standards for accessibility set out in the building regulations, primarily Parts B, K and M, and that there are standards recommended within the technical guidance documents that accompany the building regulations. The IWA’s best practice access guidelines build upon these minimum standards to deliver best practice in accessible design. The IWA also recognises that other bodies are working on accessibility matters, including the National Disability Authority, NDA, and the building control sections within the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government and local authorities. The IWA’s access guidelines utilise and build upon the work of these entities in a collaborative manner. The IWA recognises that accessibility is an issue across the world and each country has guidance and standards for all aspects of access within the built environment. The IWA’s guidelines use the highest level of access standards that exist elsewhere and within Ireland to ensure that our standards represent the best practice by international standards.

We recognise there are legacy issues in addressing existing buildings with poor levels of access, and these issues require a strategic approach to incentivise access upgrades. By adopting these principles, we ensure that our work on accessibility constantly builds upon the work of others, thereby avoiding duplication or competition. The objective of improving access to the built environment can only be achieved when all parties work together.

By working with external organisations on various building projects, advising IWA members and statutory bodies and supporting commercial entities on access matters, the IWA identified new areas that would benefit from being incorporated into our access guidelines, such as guidance for sports stadia and for once-off outdoor events. A consultation process took place with more than 1,000 IWA members, local authorities and other disability organisations to identify what additions and updates were required to our access guidelines. This process led to the publication of the third edition of our access guidelines.

The guidelines were launched on 4 July 2014, Independence Day in the US, at the Aviva Stadium because the IWA worked with that stadium's architects and management on gaining the highest levels of accessibility for our members, wheelchair users and others with impaired mobility. The Aviva Stadium has 120 wheelchair accessible spaces located at different viewing points, all providing an uninterrupted view of soccer and rugby games. Since the national launch of the guidelines in July, a number of local launches have taken place in 26 locations throughout the country and attendees included Members of the Oireachtas, local authority councillors and staff, IWA members, architects, builders and HSE officials. In total, approximately 1,000 people attended the local launches and this initiative has further raised awareness of access issues. The next step is to ensure that the third edition of the IWA's access guidelines is used to impact further on standards of accessibility within the built environment. This can only be achieved by ensuring all new legislation and public policy recognises the importance of good access, ensuring planning decisions reflect the highest standards of accessibility as outlined in the guidelines, and supporting organisations and individuals in developing best practice building plans when preparing a disability access certificate application.

I will now address the matter of the assistance of the Joint Committee on Health and Children. We are here today to ask the committee to support our work by endorsing the IWA's best practice access guidelines and recording its support for our work in this regard. Committee members can be champions for the highest levels of accessibility when discharging their duties as Deputies, Senators, public policy-makers and legislators. Committee members can ensure that any new building projects within the health sector utilise the guidance and standards detailed in the IWA's best practice access guidelines. They can also propose a business tax incentive scheme to the Government for access upgrades to existing buildings. This would be similar to the home renovation scheme announced in the 2013 budget.

In concluding this opening statement, I would like to restate my sincere gratitude to the committee for its invitation to make a presentation on the access guidelines and accessibility in the built environment. I acknowledge that creating an environment with the highest level of accessibility is a long-term objective, but this can only be achieved by undertaking short and medium-term actions. All members of society must be aware of the importance of good accessibility and all new legislation and public policy must be access-proofed. We need a continued drive to raise the minimum standards of accessibility to the level articulated in the third edition of the access guidelines.

I thank the members listening to this opening statement and we are happy to take any questions.

Vice Chairman

I thank Mr. Hoey for such a comprehensive opening statement and congratulate the witnesses on the comprehensive document that is this edition of the guidelines. Deputy Seamus Healy invited the witnesses so I will ask him to contribute first, with the committee's indulgence, as he must leave the meeting.

Deputy Seamus Healy

I welcome Mr. Hoey and the witnesses from the Irish Wheelchair Association. They are here to present the access guidelines and I thank the Chairman, Vice Chairman and the committee members for facilitating this meeting. I attended the local launch of the guidelines in Thurles and met IWA members and staff, so I felt the committee would be supportive of this, as it has.

There is no doubt that this edition of the guidelines is a significant and detailed body of work that is available to the construction sector, architects, local authorities, public building bodies and those who seek to facilitate access to the built environment for those with limited mobility. Since the guidelines were first introduced in 2009, they have been used with regard to various organisations, structures and buildings, as indicated by Mr. Hoey, including Croke Park, the Aviva Stadium, Marks & Spencer, various local authorities, Terminal 2 at Dublin Airport, the National Gallery and a host of other entities. Many projects have used the expertise and information available in the guidelines and worked with the Irish Wheelchair Association to improve accessibility for those with limited mobility. I endorse the guidelines and expect that this committee will champion them in future. I hope the committee will recommend access-proofing as public policy.

I thank the representatives of the Irish Wheelchair Association for the work they do throughout the country. It is a very significant and important organisation with 20,000 members, 2,000 members of staff and 57 centres nationwide. It has been in existence for 54 years and it does great work in local communities. I again thank the witnesses for attending and the committee members for extending the invitation.

Deputy Colm Keaveney

It is a great honour to be asked to represent my party at this meeting and to endorse this document. It was also a great honour to be asked to launch this edition of the guidelines regionally. It is a document that has been prepared in the kind of language people like us can understand. It is not a technical document, although it is sufficiently technical to allow us to understand the raw material and assume this was a deliberate strategic approach that was taken to compiling the guidelines.

I congratulate the witnesses on the publication of the guidelines and I believe their efforts today will be rewarded with the full support of committee members. It was an opportune time for the publication of these guidelines. The Irish Wheelchair Association has 20,000 members and 1,000 were sampled in compiling this document so it is a comprehensive piece of work. I acknowledge this on behalf of the committee and extend our gratitude to the witnesses and the Irish Wheelchair Association for their dedication and commitment.

Ambitious social and public housing plans were recently proposed so, as I said, the timing of this publication is opportune. Many committee members are aware of the complex nature of local authorities and the difficulties, costs and barriers that exist when seeking to adapt a dwelling to allow accessibility for those with limited mobility. Getting this right from the outset is essential.

It is vital that we have a comprehensive, understandable and user-friendly tool that will ensure cost-effective outcomes. That is in the interest of all stakeholders from the perspective of costs but, most important, it is in the interests of service users. Of course, getting it right at the outset is also far more cost-efficient for the Exchequer.

The question then is how we can build more comprehensive relationships among stakeholders and ensure this document is embedded as an obligation in terms of how we approach design. The delegates referred to the application of the local authority guidelines since 2010. I would be interested to hear about how they have evaluated their own success over that period in the context of how the 2009 guidelines have been implemented. How can we learn from what has happened since 2010 and how can we make this document more effective in the sense of ensuring its recommendations are applied in the context of living environment design in a way that makes a real difference to people? How do the delegates envision us working together to make that happen? Securing the support of this committee is straightforward enough, but what happens after that in so far as the delegates envisage rolling out the guidelines? It might not be a question of statutory obligations, but we should be aiming for a general understanding of best practice and how local authorities, State bodies and agencies will have as the centrepiece of the roll-out of any built living environment an accommodation of the needs of people with varying degrees of ability and disability.

I congratulate the delegates once again on the publication of this document.

Deputy Sandra McLellan

I welcome the delegates and thank them for their presentation and the documentation they provided. I commend all members of the Irish Wheelchair Association on the tremendous work they do in communities throughout the country. I convey apologies from my colleague, Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin, who is unable to attend because he is partaking in Leaders' Questions in the Dáil.

Will the delegates give some examples of the obstacles their members face every day in their communities? This is the third edition of the access guidelines since the previous document in 2009. Clearly, there is a steady progression going on, but will the delegates indicate what proportion or percentage of the previous recommendations and guidelines have been implemented?

The Irish Wheelchair Association worked with many local authorities during the review of the building regulations. Youghal Town Council had two of its councillors represented on the local disability awareness group during the period I was on the council. When the previous access guidelines were published in 2009, the members of that group took to the streets with the local authority engineers to see where improvements could be made. That was a very worthwhile exercise. One of those individuals was a mobility scooter user and it was very useful for the others to see at first hand the difficulties he encountered along the way.

The delegates referred to the importance of having standards that represent best practice internationally. How do we measure that and will the delegates give an example of a country where best practice is in operation? The delegates made several clear recommendations which I am sure will have the full support of the committee. What are the main barriers they see to having the access guidelines implemented?

Vice Chairman

I invite Mr. Hoey and his colleagues to respond to that group of questions.

Mr. Chris Hoey

Deputy Keaveney had several very relevant points and questions with regard to the next steps, roll-out of the guidelines and so on. We have 57 centres throughout the country. The key for this document to work is that it is not an IWA national policy document or a document of this committee; it is something that has to be owned, lived and breathed at local level. That means staff from our local centres interacting with local architects and builders and, most important, with staff in local authorities. It is about building relationships in order that when there is a building project, those involved in designing and building it do not come to the IWA by exception, rather it is part of what they do. That is what I mean by systemic change. Access should not be an add-on or extra but very much part of the process of planning any project.

We endorse what the Deputy said about the cost when something goes wrong. It is far less costly to get it right at the beginning. The Aviva Stadium is a wonderful example of that and is on a par with any stadium in the world when it comes to accessibility. It was the people around the table with me and in the Gallery who engaged with the builders and architects on that project and made it happen. It is an example of doing it right, which ensures there is cost-effectiveness.

The local launches showed how we intend to roll this out. More than 1,000 people took part in that initiative, the majority of whom were not aware of the national launch in the Aviva Stadium. The access strategy is now on the table of a range of local decision-makers, but we need to build on that. The plan we are trying to put in place involves a number of levels of access supports, from local to regional to national level. The objective is to have an access response available for people at the most local level. It will not work if people come to me. They need to approach their local centre.

Deputy McLellan asked for an example of best practice internationally. There are different examples in different parts of the world, and our guidelines have unashamedly incorporated the best of them. In terms of how we use them, I would point to the Aviva Stadium as an example of a facility of the highest standards. It is about working together on planning and then bringing the concept into reality.

I will ask my colleagues to comment on the question regarding the obstacles people face in their communities. It might be nice for members to hear a different voice.

Ms Dolores Murphy

Obstacles in the community are reported regularly to IWA, particularly in the consultations that were held in our resource centres throughout the country before we wrote up this third edition of the guidelines. Obstacles arise when people try to access the most basic facilities. We have regular reports, for example, that public toilet facilities available to wheelchair users are not fit for purpose for most people who require them. Wheelchair users might find they cannot close the bathroom door behind them or, even if they can get it closed, they are unable to manoeuvre within the space. That is a perennial problem and one of the major barriers to wheelchair users' capacity to get out and about and have a social life.

Another persistent issue that is reported relates to parking. We often hear, for instance, about parking that is not properly designed and has inadequate space for the person to take his or her wheelchair out of the car and transfer into it. In some cases, parking is provided at a location that is not adjacent to the person's destination. We have had reports, too, of buildings with lifts that are not sufficiently large to allow a person using a powered wheelchair to enter or have a person accompany him or her. At one of our public consultations in Cork, a person reported a building that had a lift which went only to the second floor but not the third or fourth.

If a person wanted to be part of what was happening in that building, he or she could only be part of what was happening on floors 1 and 2. Numerous problems are reported in this regard and they are legacy issues, but we hope there may be a way to deal with and address some of them. That is why we have suggested a tax incentive scheme might be considered which could encourage and promote businesses, community services and facilities to undertake adaptation works that would improve the facilities available.

The Irish Wheelchair Association is regularly asked whether there is a grant or some facility available to support people and help to improve the service they are providing. This could relate to a person with bed and breakfast accommodation, a youth club or a local community resource centre. There is no such grant available. We consider the availability of a tax incentive to undertake works, particularly intended to provide increased and better levels of access, would be an incentive to promote better accessibility in existing buildings.

Ms Bridget Boyle

I will elaborate on the point made by Ms Murphy about the burning issues people encounter on a daily basis. As a person who uses a wheelchair, I can report first-hand on the matter. It is about taking the natural journey. Let us suppose I use my car in the morning. Can I get into it? Ms Murphy made the same point. Do I have sufficient space to open the door of my car? When I arrive at my destination, can I get out of my car? It is a question of accessible car parking.

Another issue our members often encounter relates to footpaths that are not accessible. They are either not wide enough or the surface is not conducive to use of a wheelchair. A person may not have ramped access to a footpath. Again, it is about taking the natural journey.

I am keen to reinforce one point relating to access to the built environment. It is more than a question of getting into a building; it is about what it opens up for a person with a disability. The ability to access a building includes access to education, employment and social interaction. It is about what everyone expects. There is one question I always pose when I talk about access: can I go where you go? To me, that is the essence of the issue. We can also discuss access with reference to egress. Can I get out of a building? I may be able to get in, but can I get out? It is all about safe evacuation. We have covered this issue extensively in our guidelines.

Vice Chairman

Before we move on, I acknowledge the presence of Mr. Hugh Farrell, Mr. Mark Barry, Mr. Liam O'Rourke, Mr. Joe O'Connell and Ms Anita Matthews from the Irish Wheelchair Association.

Senator Colm Burke

I thank the deputation for a comprehensive presentation. My first question relates to selling an idea and about engagement. One point may be helpful from our point of view. Do we have a figure for the total number of people who are wheelchair bound or who need to use wheelchairs? Another interesting figure is the number who are dependent on wheelchairs and living alone. These figures are relevant in emphasising the importance of adapting buildings and streetscapes.

Another point relates to engagement with various players involved in the construction industry. The first group is local authorities. When we were engaged in refurbishment in the city centre in Cork, I recall the engagement of the local authority with the association. That engagement was extremely important. What is the current level of engagement with local authorities? Are there clear targets set in each local authority area? I imagine in any local authority area there are at least 20 or 30 places which need to be adapted. It is a question of setting out a clear programme for when the work will be done to make the necessary changes and seeing if these targets are being met by local authorities.

There are several important players when it comes to design and construction. There are four main players, namely, the local authority, architects, engineers and the Construction Industry Federation. What level of engagement has there been with them? I have referred to local authorities, but what is the position with architects, engineers and the Construction Industry Federation in showing forward thinking and planning?

While we have gone through a downturn in the building industry, we are moving on. In Cork three or four major projects are under way, involving over €200 million in expenditure. It is important at this stage to ensure the mistakes made in the past are not made in the future. I am curious about the level of engagement. What can we do to assist it? I am keen to see where we go on these issues.

Senator Jillian van Turnhout

I join my colleagues in welcoming the deputation and thank it for the access guidelines which are most interesting to read. This is not an area about which I claim to know a great deal, other than having experiences, particularly with children's groups, when trying to access a venue or seeking to hold an event in a venue. Sometimes we are told venues are fully accessible, but when we arrive there are two steps to be negotiated and the people concerned suggest we simply lift in those in wheelchairs. We have to be mindful of the dignity of the persons concerned. Sometimes I have to make the point that we were told in advance that the venue was accessible. That brings me to my first question. Is there a list of venues available? Community and voluntary organisations regularly put it to me that they want to hold meetings or events and engage in activities. They are keen to support venues that are fully accessible, rather than waiting to see whether someone is coming who is in a wheelchair. The idea in the first instance is to hold the event somewhere that is accessible. This would be useful and is something we could all promote and a way to promote best practice.

Reference was made to the report of the Ombudsman for Children dating from September 2009 on a review of complaints on behalf of children in the provision of housing. It concerns the adaptation of a house. There were some recurring concerns in the report about what constituted a suitable housing standard for a child with special needs. One of the children concerned was in a wheelchair and it was a question of agreeing on what was appropriate in terms of housing adaptation. The deputation has referred to the engagement with local authorities since the guidance was issued. Has it improved significantly? Is it something we should be tracking? Should we go back to the report of the Ombudsman for Children and ask what has happened since and whether the level of engagement is consistent throughout the country?

My final question relates to the health care sector. We expect hospitals and such venues to be accessible. On Tuesday we visited the site of the new national children's hospital and the potential associated satellite centres. This will involve renovation of older buildings. I hope and expect those involved are taking the access guidelines on board. It made me think of nursing homes. In recent years I have visited numerous nursing homes, many of which purport to be accessible, but it is exactly as Ms Murphy said. The lift may go to the second floor, but there may be three floors and there are activities on the third floor. Technically, wheelchair users could squeeze in but not if it is a living environment or to be a person's home. The high dependency needs of some wheelchair-bound users are not catered for. A nursing home may claim to be fully accessible, but in reality it may not be in the sense that it cannot become a person's home.

These are my random thoughts. I would welcome any advice or guidance the deputation can offer.

Senator John Crown

I thank the deputation for coming. I am sorry, but I have not had a chance to study the document provided.

Are there guidelines for private residential rented accommodation? I raise this question because I live in rented accommodation and recently had a guest in a wheelchair. It had never struck me that there might be a problem.

The main bathrooms in these relatively large apartments were not accessible for a person in a wheelchair. A guest of mine in a wheelchair was using the facilities in Leinster House in what was designated as an accessible bathroom, but when a mishap occurred the door could not be opened and it was difficult to get a body in to rescue the person. I do not use the word rescue likely, but the person needed assistance to get back into the chair. Clearly we have a way to go. I thank the witnesses for the ongoing good work.

Deputy Catherine Byrne

I was listening to the presentation in my office. A number of years ago I was involved in a local school that ran a very interesting project during transition year. A number of students came up with the idea of borrowing wheelchairs and spending a day or two in them. This initiative made all of us, not just the young people, feel how it would affect an individual to be in a wheelchair 24/7. I remember from my interaction with the students the impact of being in a wheelchair had on them when they encountered difficulties a few minutes from the school.

When I was a councillor on Dublin City Council, I was very involved in the committee on disability. The city council did exceptional work and now most new buildings have access for wheelchairs.

I wish to comment on the materials used for playground surfaces. I have a granddaughter and I frequent a number of playgrounds - when my children were growing up, there were swings in the back garden - and I notice that different materials, including tree bark is being used. I note that the presentation referred to the use of sand and gravel, but in our local playground they took out the sand and replaced it with bark. The parents are happy with bark because sand caused problems. Will the use of bark cause problems for people in wheelchairs?

There are now changing rooms for babies, but is there any indication of the height level of the changing table?

I agree with the proposal for a business tax scheme to encourage businesses to upgrade existing buildings. I am aware the home renovation scheme has resulted in significant improvements in the homes of those who have a disability. I advocated for that. I think the members of the joint committee need to consider how the Government would provide a tax incentive for businesses. I rent a small office, which I know is wheelchair accessible but with difficulty. However, if somebody needed to go to the lavatory, I would have to send them across to the local pub to access a disabled toilet.

I thank the Irish Wheelchair Association for the work they do on the ground. The IWA has more than 20,000 members which is a significant number to cater for on a daily basis. It has given people the opportunity to live independently in their environments. My mother-in-law passed away two years ago, but unfortunately she had lost her limbs thirty years previously. I know the work that had to be done to allow her to use the bathroom and toilet, things that we take for granted in our homes.

Unfortunately I must go to another meeting but my staff will note the points made in the replies.

Vice Chairman

I have a related point. Many of us have constituency offices. I too made it my job to have a ground floor office, but it was impossible to find a property to rent that would have disabled facilities on the ground floor. My concerns were twofold, I was thinking of people with mobility issues but also of mothers with young children who might want to access the office. It might be an interesting exercise for the IWA to do an audit of constituency offices and how they rate in terms of access. That would put accessibility four square in the minds of public representatives. The IWA might consider taking on that as an exercise. I would be delighted for somebody to come and do an audit of my office to highlight the issues.

During my time in college I was the equality officer in the Students' Union. One of the tasks we undertook was an accessibility audit of the campus. I remember what struck me, and this echoes the point made by Ms Boyle on whether a person with disabilities can do what another person can do. One of our findings was that the ATM bank machine was too high. I see in some places they have been adapted, but in the villages and towns with which I am familiar the machines are of a standard height. Does the IWA get a buy-in from the banks and businesses? I think Deputy Byrne's suggestion of a tax incentive for businesses to improve accessibility is a worthy recommendation. For my part and for the committee's part, we will try to push it at Government level.

I invite the witnesses to respond to those points.

Mr. Chris Hoey

I thank members for their questions. I will give a general response and I will ask my colleagues to give a more detailed reply.

Senator Burke made some very relevant points on numbers. Unfortunately, there are no hard facts and figures. The local census will tell us that approximately 11% of the population have a physical disability of some sort, but the figure is not broken down between people who use wheelchairs and those who do not. Similarly, there is no census figures that we can use reliably to determine isolation, but from our local intelligence, we tend to know the pockets and the number of people, and we have local responses for local issues. We are trying to speak to the Central Statistics Office about how to reflect this in future censuses, but I am sure there are a hundred different groups asking the CSO to add different questions to the survey. This committee may be able to help us in that regard.

The level of engagement with the local authorities is increasing. There are access committees in most local authority areas and we have a seat on most access committees of the local authorities. We are talking about systemic change and it is not for me to say that X council is brilliant but Y council is not. It is a case of raising everybody up to the highest level. Unfortunately we still have personality driven approaches. In the councils where we have the best interaction it is because somebody has a personal experience of disability. We want to raise awareness of these issues to such a point that it does not matter whether people have personal experience, but that it becomes ingrained in what they do, that access and accessibility is a right of every member of society. I will ask Mr. Vijoy Chakraborty to give an example of how we are planning for the long-term future by making an input before people qualify as architects or occupational therapists. There is a number of initiatives which Mr. Chakraborty will develop.

With regard to the points made by Senator van Turnhout on claims that buildings are fully accessible, that is something we deal with on a daily basis. It is not that business is trying to pull the wool over anybody's eyes. It is that the people who are making the claims do not really understand what the term "fully accessible" means. That is one of the reasons for this document. It is an issue that requires systemic change. It is not that IWA wants to be held up as the best, the IWA wants to inform and come up with access solutions and advice. IWA wants to develop a facility where it does not matter whether one has a local sweet shop or a bank with an ATM, one can call IWA and somebody from a local centre can give the business objective and straightforward advice.

We can also provide solutions, as some solutions to accessibility are very inexpensive. It is just about thinking outside the box and so on.

Hospitals have been mentioned and I commented on legacy issues. There are very few new hospitals around the country. I live in Cavan and the hospital there was built in the late 1980s or early 1990s; I used to work there. There are accessibility issues with that location, and it is one of the newer hospitals. Would the 2014 standards be applied to a 1990 build? We have a piece of work in tackling the legacy pieces, not just in hospitals but across society. Ms Murphy will address the issue of private rented accommodation. Deputy Catherine Byrne made some very relevant points and I am glad she is going to support the call for a tax incentive and so on. Mr. Chakraborty will speak to how we are systemically trying to change and refer to the Dublin Airport Authority and a specific piece of influential work. We will take up every offer and we can do an access audit of every constituency office.

Mr. Vijoy Chakraborty

I engage with professionals and those designing places in the years to come but I have a role as a practice educator as well. There are occupational therapy students who get nine-week or 11-week placements with the Irish Wheelchair Association. During their placements, they get a good understanding of access issues. Much of my role in the association concerns access. We are also in the process of engaging with the Royal Institute of Architects in Ireland, RIAI, to see if we can even develop a continuing professional development course. Accessibility might be covered in a chapter when somebody is becoming an architect but not everybody may have gone through the process. Having some engagement with the RIAI means we can target the issue early.

Recently we had contact from Bank of Ireland, which wanted to officially determine the possible areas in which it can improve. One of the officials came to us and we went out with a person in a wheelchair to go to a local bank. They had a perfect understanding afterwards, as the person could not open the doors through which people had to go, for example. There was also the issue of ATM height, etc. We are engaging with banks and they must bring the issue back to management. The process could be subject to budgets, etc.

Many public playgrounds can be considered wheelchair-accessible as long as there is proper flooring and one or two facilities which people in a wheelchair can access, such as vertical panels. Children with disabilities will also want to experience some kind of challenge when they go to a playground. They want to take risks. We are advocating for this. There is some playground equipment that could be used by people in wheelchairs, and this relates to Deputy McLellan's point about barriers to use. Much of the time people might consider if designs need to be changed or if they can get away with just the minimum standards. This can be the biggest barrier in implementation. As long as there are levels and gates which are accessible, the playground is technically wheelchair-accessible. Is that any good for children in wheelchairs and what motivation do they have when they visit that playground? In any public playground, the procurement policy should have a clause detailing how many pieces of equipment can be usable by people in wheelchairs.

We are engaging with many agencies about changing places, including Dublin Airport. The work is still in progress at terminal 2 after a number of years. We are also working with the National Gallery of Ireland and there will be another adult changing facility available there. Recently, we have been engaging with Inclusion Ireland, another organisation, and we will have a meeting next Monday about the changing place campaign. We are associated with that. The question was asked regarding guidelines, and these are included in our guidelines

Ms Dolores Murphy

I will pick up on some questions, particularly those regarding housing. There was mention of private rented housing and whether there is guidance or regulation required. Building regulations are applied to private housing, even if it is rented, but prior to 2000, the regulations did not mention anything about accessibility. What was provided was not required to comply with any accessibility elements. When newer building regulations were introduced in 2000, only the minimum amount was required. For example, the term used was for a house to be "visitable" rather than accessible. There is a higher expectation for public areas of apartment buildings but with regard to space where people would enter and live, the requirement was for the unit to be "visitable". This means that somebody with a disability could enter and be there in a social area. The bathroom facilities required may not be adequate for somebody who is a wheelchair user. That is still the case, although building regulations have been upgraded; there is now a 2010 version of those regulations but the section on housing has not changed. The section on public buildings has been changed. It is still only required that a unit be visitable, which is not suitable for somebody using a wheelchair.

Senator van Turnhout asked about the Ombudsman and work done by it some years back. We are aware of that work but the Senator asked what has changed since. The answer is probably that not a lot has changed. The case in question concerned social housing and no such housing has been built in the intervening years. Towards the end of the boom, there were some examples from councils - Dublin City Council is the one in question - which were "piecemeal" or random. On Londonbridge Road there is a social housing project built by Dublin City Council towards the end of the boom and accessibility was integrated. A percentage of the units built there were designed to be suitable for people using wheelchairs, and particularly those using powered wheelchairs. The people concerned would have been involved with consultation and design processes. It is a good quality housing project with a mix of different family units and general and particular accessibility features. Unfortunately, that came at the end of the boom and the practice was piecemeal. It was never "systemised" or developed into a process.

That is the challenge now. The social housing strategy launched last week by the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Alan Kelly, discusses eliminating the social housing list. There are almost 4,000 people with disabilities nationally on social housing lists.

A similar number of people with disabilities would be expected to move out of congregated settings. These are people who need a particular type of housing design. There is a great deal of government documentation in that regard, including the national housing strategy for people with a disability and the congregated settings report, while the local authorities are required to set up housing and disability steering groups. Many of the pieces of the jigsaw are in place or are being put in place, but the challenge is how one translates that into the supply of social housing that is suitable to the needs of people who have a mobility impairment. That has not existed up to now and it must happen.

As my colleagues mentioned, accessible design works best when there is an engagement with the client group, the people who will use the facility. That engagement can be established and maintained over time. It is not a once-off engagement but something that would be established and worked through. There have been many examples of that but, again, the challenge is for it to become part of the mainstream way of doing business.

In terms of consultation with people with disabilities, often an assumption can be made that the designers will know best, that they know what they are doing when they are proposing accessible design. In our experience, that has not necessarily been the case. When the end user is involved much of the discussion would deliver a change to an initial design to a design that meets the requirements of the people who will use it. There was one example this week in which my colleague, Vijoy Chakraborty, was involved. The National Rehabilitation Hospital will be rebuilt and planning permission has been approved or is in the process of being approved. One might think that all the experts would know about the design but they have set up a consultation group which involves the Irish Wheelchair Association, DeafHear and the National Council for the Blind as well as staff, users of the hospital, the designers and the developers. That is the process and those consultation meetings will happen over a period of time. The process takes in the experience and guidance of the user of the hospital and the various organisations representing people with disabilities, and it will eventually deliver a very good quality hospital design.

Vice Chairman

Senator van Turnhout raised the question of whether the witnesses have had any consultation with the national children's hospital regarding its design.

Mr. Chris Hoey

Not at this stage, but we have made our services available. We would welcome an invitation to engage with it.

Vice Chairman

Given that you have come to visit us on the week that we also visited the site, we might contact the national children's hospital group and ask it, when the time comes, to make sure to engage. The last thing we want is a state-of-the-art building that overlooks accessibility issues.

Mr. Chris Hoey

It would not be state-of-the-art then.

Vice Chairman

That is my point.

Mr. Chris Hoey

There is an extension to what we are trying to do and it refers back to what Senator Colm Burke said in some respects. We have a plan for where we want to bring this. At present, we are in the awareness, information, launching and partnerships stage, but we are moving quickly into the local engagement, the local response and so forth. Ultimately, we are trying to put in place a service into which anybody can tap, be it the national children's hospital, the National Rehabilitation Hospital, schools, community groups or whatever. They can ask us to look at their premises so they will be able to do it in a professional and speedy way, with very practical solutions. Over the next number of months we are moving towards making that service available. However, there is no point in us making a service available to bring about systemic change if nobody knows about it. We are in the phase of letting everybody know we are available and the door is open.

Senator Colm Burke

To refer back to targets with local authorities, I served on a local authority for 12 years and local authorities tend to say they will deal with an issue next year or the year after. It would be a very good idea if the witnesses engage with local authorities and set clear targets for areas, because unless the targets are set out in writing it can get pushed down the road. That is something I recommend that the witnesses consider, in view of my experience in dealing with local authorities.

Mr. Chris Hoey

I could not agree more. As a result of the local launches, we have enhanced some of the partnerships. We have made submissions to Kildare and Wicklow county councils as part of their housing and access programmes. A number of councillors in Navan, including the chairman of Meath council, are going to sit in wheelchairs and go around the towns and so forth. Deputy Byrne referred to transition year students. That can be very useful in the moment, but unfortunately 24 hours later something else happens. It is great to get the publicity but we need to go further than people just getting into wheelchairs and realising there is a problem getting off a certain footpath. It is about coming up with solutions.

Ms Bridget Boyle

Regarding the engagement with local authorities, part of the sectoral plan was that councils appoint an access officer within each county council. That access officer would have been seen as possibly an add-on to an existing post and it is varied from council to council. Having been in each county around the country launching our guidelines, we have found that the existence of that access officer post appears to have diminished. To maintain the engagement with local authorities, there must be the definite appointment of access officers in each council.

Vice Chairman

I thank you all for your attendance. It was a very interesting presentation and discussion. Hopefully, this will give you a further springboard to get your message across and to let people know you are available and about the excellent document the organisation has produced. It has been very useful for informing the work of the committee, particularly regarding disability and access issues. Thank you for that.

I thank my colleagues for their indulgence. I am not very good at this as I do not get the chance to do it very often. My apologies to Deputy McLellan for overlooking her earlier.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.38 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 11 December 2014.