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Joint Committee on Health and Children debate -
Thursday, 18 Dec 2014

Regulation of Cosmetic Surgery: Discussion

Our first session concerns the implications for patients and the medical profession of unregistered practitioners of cosmetic surgery. I welcome Mrs. Margaret O'Donnell, president of the Irish Association of Plastic Surgeons, Ms Patricia Eadie, immediate past president of the Irish Association of Plastic Surgeons, Ms Siobhan Kelly, CEO of the Irish College of Ophthalmologists, and Dr. Patrick Ormond, Irish Association of Dermatology. They are very welcome and I thank them for being here. I thank Senator Crown, who put this matter on the agenda for the work programme.

I remind members, visitors and those in the Visitors Gallery that mobile phones should be switched off or put on aeroplane mode, as they interfere with broadcasting equipment even when in silent mode.

Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

We thank everyone for being here. We have received apologies today from the professor of dermatology at St. Vincent's University Hospital, Dr. Brian Kirby, who cannot attend our meeting today due to the bereavement of a colleague. I extend our sympathies to him and to the family of the deceased.

Mrs. Margaret O'Donnell

We thank the committee for inviting us to discuss what we believe is a widespread patient safety issue. Patients are being harmed. If one gets into a taxi, one expects the driver to have passed a driving test, and to hold a licence. Yet a patient undergoing cosmetic surgery may be operated upon by a doctor with no professional surgical qualifications.

Perhaps I should begin by clarifying what is surgery and what is non-surgery. Surgery means operations, such as breast implants, tummy tucks or liposuction. Non-surgery usually means injection treatment, such as botox, fillers and laser treatments. Done properly, these treatments can give a very high quality of satisfaction to the patient and improvement in their quality of life. These treatments are offered by a wide variety of practitioners - not just surgeons and doctors, but also nurses, beauty therapists and possibly others - but there is no register of practitioners, there is no licence and standards vary hugely. A vast number of treatments are being offered, many without any scientific proof that they work. Non-surgical and non-invasive does not mean safe. Many of these treatments can and do cause harm.

We have been asked to give some examples. Groupon has had an online discount deal offering "laser removal" of moles in a beauty salon. There was no mention of medical assessment and lasering of moles could be potentially fatal if a melanoma, a type of skin cancer, were inadvertently removed. The normal practice is that any mole that is removed should be analysed in a laboratory, but if one removes or destroys a mole by laser, there is nothing to analyse. Other laser treatments are being offered to patients at huge cost, with no proof that they work. They are being offered to under-age patients. Recently a 15 year old was offered something at the cost of €850, despite being under the age of consent. Plastic surgeons are seeing patients who have had treatments in beauty salons. I have had two patients in recent months who have had skin cancers treated in beauty salons. Having said that, there are some excellent beauty therapists who pick up on things and send people to their GP or other practitioners.

We are concerned that the incidence of purchasing prescription medication online for use on the purchaser or on others is rising. We are also concerned that doctors with no postgraduate surgical qualifications and only a basic medical degree are operating on patients. We are also concerned about misleading and false advertising. There are many examples of this, including the use of unrealistic models in ads - these are not patients who have had any surgery - photos that are airbrushed, stock photos being used as examples of a practitioner's own practice, prices stated as "from" when there is no realistic expectation of that price being offered, and so on. We are also concerned about doctors who describe themselves as "qualified surgeons" or "leading experts".

In one specific case, a doctor who is described as a qualified surgeon is not on any specialist register as a surgeon and appears on a general register only in both the United Kingdom and Ireland.

The use of the terms "cosmetic doctor" and "cosmetic surgeon" is also a matter of concern as these are unregulated terms that are not recognised by the Medical Council. There is no syllabus, training or examinations in place for persons who describe themselves as cosmetic doctors or surgeons.

The use of the term "fully registered" is misleading. Practitioners often describe themselves as being fully registered with the Medical Council to suggest that they are specialists. Every doctor practising in Ireland must be fully registered. The issue is one of breaking down the register to determine whether he or she is a trainee doctor, doctor on the general register or specialist.

Many other countries have legislated in this area. The PIP implant case in France, which affected approximately 100,000 women, caused a major public outcry about the lack of regulation in this area. France and Denmark subsequently introduced legislation to ensure surgery is carried out only by those who are trained to do so. Consumer groups have called for a ban on cosmetic surgery advertising on the basis that it is often misleading. Legislation proposed in the United Kingdom includes measures to ban such advertising and provide for a register of practitioners.

Safety is a key concern of the Irish Association of Plastic Surgeons and could be addressed in the areas of patients, practitioners, procedures and premises. The patient should be a good candidate, be informed and have realistic expectations. The practitioner must be properly trained. Surgeons, for example, must be trained and possess the appropriate credentials, and non-surgical practitioners must be trained and possess credentials for the level at which they work. The procedures should be appropriate for the patient and of proven effectiveness. The premises should be an accredited and safe venue, with properly trained staff and provision for emergency treatment should such be necessary.

The Irish Association of Plastic Surgeons calls for the implementation of a number of solutions, which are detailed in the document we have circulated. Some or all of the European standard developed and passed this year should be implemented in legislation. The standard is currently voluntary and will only become mandatory if it is implemented in legislation. Some countries have already done so. A regulatory or umbrella body should be established to oversee and co-ordinate the activities of bodies such as the Medical Council, the Irish Medicines Board, the Irish Nurses and Midwives Organisation and the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland. These are all very good organisations but they act in isolation and without an overarching body to co-ordinate their activities in this area.

A register of practitioners should be established for those working in this field. The register should contain divisions indicating the level at which each practitioner operates, for example, whether he or she is a therapist, nurse, dentist, specialist doctor, etc. Members of the public must have confidence that surgery will be carried out by a surgeon who is trained to perform the procedures in question. In addition, procedures must be assessed and medical devices should be only FDA or CE approved. Consideration should also be given to introducing a national breast implant registry. Many of those affected in the PIP case still find it difficult to determine if they had PIP implants.

Premises should be fit for purpose and accredited and systems should be in place to look after patients during surgery and afterwards, particularly in the event of an emergency. Cooling off periods should be recommended and good data protection measures followed. It should be mandatory to follow what would be considered normal guidelines.

We are aware that the Advertising Standards Authority of Ireland is reviewing its guidelines for medical advertising. This review presents an opportunity to examine specifically cosmetic surgery advertising, as has been done in other countries. It is necessary to strike a balance between providing information and avoiding manipulation of those who are vulnerable. The experience of other European Union countries should be considered, for example, steps to prohibit practices such as advertising to those aged under 18 years, placing advertisements in public places, including radio and television, and using incentives such as two-for-one deals or discounts where purchases are made before a certain date. These practices have been shown not to be in the best interests of patients.

While I have tried to keep the presentation brief, I will be pleased to provide details of cases, without naming individuals, involving the types of treatments about which we are concerned.

I invite Ms Kelly to make her presentation.

Ms Siobhan Kelly

I thank members for providing the Irish College of Ophthalmologists, ICO, with the opportunity to address the joint committee. The ICO is the training and professional body for eye doctors in Ireland. One of our key concerns is to ensure that members of the public are educated about and aware of good eye care practices.

To reiterate Mrs. O'Donnell's point, the decision to have a medical or surgical procedure can have a profound impact on the health and well-being of patients and their families. While there is little doubt that a medical or cosmetic procedure can be positive for patients when undertaken by trained specialists with appropriate aftercare, it is essential that patients receive balanced information. Advertising is a legitimate and important source of information for members of the public and can help to inform patients of services and treatment options. However, important questions arise in this regard. For example, given the potential significance of the decisions involved, is regulation in the area of direct advertising to patients required to ensure they receive unbiased information?

Providers use advertising and marketing to compete for consumers. While advertising can play a positive role, it can also have a negative effect, particularly if it trivialises the risks of procedures, targets vulnerable consumers or misleads by portraying an outcome that may not be attainable for all. For some people, cost is more likely to influence their decision than the qualifications of the person doing the procedure and the quality of care he or she provides. Trivialising surgery to the point that the decision to proceed is solely based on cost is not compatible with the prioritising of patient safety and quality outcomes.

Ireland does not have specific legislation in place governing direct-to-patient advertising. There are no requirements that advertisements or marketing material provide any information on the health risks of procedures. Both surgical and non-surgical interventions can have a serious impact on an individual’s health and well-being, yet questionable advertising trivialises the procedures and presents them as a desirable commodity.

As cost is the key deciding factor for some people choosing a procedure or provider, financial inducements are likely to have an impact on purchasing behaviour. Discounts for procedures or offering procedures as competition prizes may impair an individual's ability to give proper thought to what is being offered. Time-limited deals, which offer discounts within a certain timeframe, allow little or no opportunity for proper consideration of the risks involved.

The current regulatory system needs to be updated to provide clearer rules through which to hold advertisers to account and which reflect the changing market, particularly the significant growth in non-surgical procedures and increasing use of digital marketing. Standards must ensure that advertising is conducted in a socially responsible manner. Advertising and marketing practices should not trivialise the seriousness of procedures or encourage people to undergo them hastily. Any claims must be based on high-quality evidence and should not raise unrealistic expectations.

The Irish College of Ophthalmologists proposes that statutory restrictions be imposed on the advertising of medical and surgical procedures. The advertising regulations which apply to solicitors are an appropriate framework and one that should be considered.

I welcome the panel and thank its members for their presentations. The written submissions contain an extensive exposé - that is the appropriate description - of the issues and areas the witnesses have addressed. It would be appropriate to refer both of the documents on unregistered practitioners of cosmetic surgery and the document prepared by the Irish College of Ophthalmologists directly to the Minister for Health. It is important that the substantial detail provided in these documents should not be parked at this point for the joint committee to edit before submission. My first proposition is that they be submitted urgently and in their entirety.

Some time ago, several of the so-called PIP women appeared before the joint committee. They will not take offence at my use of that term to describe them as it is one they themselves have used.

The reason I am particularly anxious that both submissions be forwarded to the Minister and his Department is because I do not want to see another group of women being exploited in this way or being placed in the most dangerous of situations. That is not an exaggeration. The examples cited by Mrs. O'Donnell in her submission are horrendous. I can understand the pressures that can apply and how people can feel compelled to take particular actions, but they are doing so without any proper advice of the possible consequences and, what is worse, are placing themselves in the hands of people who are not qualified to do what they suggest they can do. That laser treatment of skin cancer is being undertaken by beauty therapists with no medical or nursing training is horrendous. It is also crazy that qualified doctors are carrying out particular procedures despite their having no surgical qualification.

On the breast implant issue, I am aware, the representatives of PIP having appeared before this committee, that there is no breast implant registry in Ireland, which is a serious deficiency. One would think, given the rounded assessment of all that happened in this area, that the lessons would have been learned. What happened occurred not only because the implants used were deficient but also because there were serious deficiencies in the provider sector in this country, even to the point that they could close their doors and walk away, leaving people high and dry, and they have done so. That this period of time has elapsed and we still do not have a registry or any signalled intent of the imposition of such restriction is a serious matter.

I have no specific questions for the delegates as this is not a question issue. What the organisations have done is, once again, alerted this committee to a situation that should not obtain in Ireland today. Women are the target. It is unacceptable that despite this issue having been addressed, although I acknowledge not in the same detailed and focused way, the problem areas continue. As I said, the committee should forward both submissions to the Minister for Health, Deputy Varadkar, and urge that he and his Department take appropriate action and engage with the HSE post-haste.

I welcome my colleagues and friends here today. It is important that people understand exactly what it is that plastic surgeons do. There is a tendency based on popular literature to trivialise facelifts and cosmesis etc. Plastic surgeons are also the doctors who deal with the substantial chunk, if not the majority, of serious skin cancer cases, who play a critical role in managing breast cancer and who do unbelievably heroic work dealing with people with severe and life-threatening burns. All of my colleagues here who are involved in plastic surgery will have had the experience of dealing with people who have suffered horrific burns and managing them through severe illnesses. Despite their youth, these are people who over the past ten or 15 years will have seen extraordinary improvements in the outcomes for patients with terrible injuries. The issue of who plastic surgeons are is very important in this country.

I am sure some of my colleagues will raise their eyes to heaven when I ask the following question because it is one I ask of every medical specialty group that appears before the committee. What is the number of plastic surgeons per head of population in Ireland? How do we compare in this regard with the UK and, in general, to continental Europe and North America? The need for regulation in this area is striking. There are few areas in medicine in respect of which there are direct appeals made over the heads of general practitioners by alleged specialists in non-professional literature to encourage people to come for treatments which range from the unproven to the dangerous to the inappropriately applied. There is a problem here. To put this in context, and I obviously have a particular axe to grind because of my interest in cancer, particularly melanoma, we have a melanoma emergency in this country that people are not twigging. The incidence of potentially fatal melanoma in this country has approximately tripled over a 14-year period. Dr. Ormond may correct me if I am wrong but I believe the figures in this regard are 400 in 1998 to 800 in 2008 to approximately 1,200 in 2012. This is a uniquely Irish problem because as we are designed by providence to be under grey misty skies we do not have the same natural protection that other ethnic groups have against the sun, yet for various cultural reasons we very unwisely expose ourselves to the sun. It is critically important that we get the panoply of issues around dermatology and plastic surgery correct. We need more dermatologists to ensure quicker access by GPs in terms of referral of patients who have a spot which potentially could be serious or life threatening. We do not have this right now. While there has been an improvement in terms of rapid access, we still have far too few people in these areas.

For several months last year there was no dermatologist in the sunny south east of Ireland. I am not suggesting there was not one in Dunmore East, Dungarvan or Enniscorthy, rather that there was no dermatologist in the whole of the south east, which is emblematic perhaps of a more profound problem in terms of how health care in this country is planned. I warmly welcome the attendance of my colleagues at this meeting. I am not, in terms of my remarks, being disrespectful of the critical role of the ophthalmologists in this area. That is another day's work. I believe there is also a need to invest in ophthalmic and ophthalmological services in this country. I ask that my colleagues take the issue under discussion today very seriously.

I would welcome if Mrs. O'Donnell could, when replying, say if the European standard has been translated into law in any country.

I thank the delegations for their presentations. In August 2013, when drafting legislation requiring that it be compulsory that all medical practitioners have insurance, I met the secretary of the Irish Association of Plastic Surgeons. Some of the stories the secretary told me were quite frightening, including how the association regularly has to pick up the pieces when people come to its members to have rectified cosmetic surgery that was carried out in Ireland by a person from abroad who was not qualified and had left the country. Since that meeting I have published the Private Members' Bill requiring that it be compulsory for all medical practitioners to have insurance. A person wishing to drive a car must have insurance. As a solicitor, before practising, I am required to have insurance, yet medical practitioners are not required to have insurance. I know that the Government recently signed off on a new Bill in this area.

I would like to hear from the delegates if they believe making it compulsory for all medical practitioners to have insurance will solve some of the problems in this area. I accept it will not resolve all of the problems but would it be of help in addressing this issue? Are the delegates satisfied that the penalties that can be imposed where a person does not comply with current legislation are adequate? Have the delegates examined the proposed legislation to make it compulsory that every person providing medical care has insurance and, if so, is there in their view anything further that can be done to improve it?

The second issue to which I wish to refer falls slightly outside our guests' area of expertise. One of the matters that has come to my attention in recent months relates to the number of people who are engaged in providing services which are beyond their levels of competence. It appears that everyone is buying scanning machines. In that context, I understand the insurance currently offered to general practitioners does not cover the use of such machines. I heard an entertaining story recently about a person who had a pacemaker fitted and who had attended a medical practitioner's practice for a routine check-up. During the check-up the medical practitioner in question decided to scan the pacemaker. I do not know what was the point of doing so. It is odd - this is not just happening in the area of cosmetic surgery - that people are offering certain additional services. How can we ensure that, even though individuals may be qualified and competent in providing particular services, they cannot just automatically expand the range of services they offer without first undergoing the necessary training and that they have adequate insurance cover in the event that any service they provide proves inadequate?

I thank our guests for raising this critical issue with the committee and Senator John Crown for ensuring it was included in our agenda. I agree with Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin that our guests' presentations were very clear and that they should be forwarded, unedited, to the Minister and his Department. I become very concerned when people refer to Groupon offers and patient safety issues. Our guests have clearly indicated that if a mole is removed by means of laser treatment in a beauty salon, it cannot be checked there to see if it is cancerous.

I am also concerned about advertising. I did a quick search on Google in respect of plastic or reconstructive surgery and discovered that it was all focused on beauty. Senator John Crown correctly highlighted the importance of reconstructive surgery in particular instances. However, I am concerned by the focus on beauty and the two-for-one offers to which Ms Kelly referred. Even having listened to our guests' presentations, I would not be able to distinguish which of the various websites are legitimate and which are not. This is another major cause of concern, as is the liberal use of the terms "our specialists" or "our consultants" on the websites in question. I agree, therefore, that there is a need for regulation.

I again thank our guests for bringing this matter to our attention. It is unusual that members do not have further questions to ask, but this is because our guests have outlined the position so well for us.

I thank our guests for attending. I do not know which one of them was on my local radio station this morning, but I heard it stated that, after being involved in his practice for one year, he could call himself a surgeon. That is a scary thought, particularly as such a doctor does not have to have his name included in the list of specialists. What type of insurance is required for someone to open a cosmetic surgery clinic? Has anyone been found guilty of malpractice in this country in recent times? I refer to therapists, nurses, dentists and doctors in this regard.

How many breast implant procedures are carried out in this country each year? Are complaints made and, if so, to whom are they made? If a particular procedure is botched, is there anywhere to which the person involved can go for emergency surgery?

I am really concerned about the fitting of gastric bands which people seem to think can provide a quick fix in dealing with weight issues. They are high-risk devices which could result in people dying. Are many such operations carried out in Ireland?

I accept that many of the procedures under discussion relate to the lifestyle choices people make. For example, there are many individuals who may wish to have cosmetic surgery performed on their eyes, forehead, chin, nose, etc. However, the stories one hears about such procedures are frightening and we must alert people to what is happening. The sooner we get things up and running the better.

I thank our guests for attending. It is sometimes difficult to pose appropriate questions. Every day of the week people are bombarded with images and advertisements via television, radio and the Internet. Regardless of whether we like it, this has become our reality. I recently met a lady who was over 90 years of age. I asked her why she had such lovely skin and she informed me that she used a drop of rainwater and Oil of Olay on it each day and that she ate good food. If that is an advertisement, we should print copies of it. I have young daughters and image is very important to them. They watch many what I would term "mad" shows on television - I will not name them because I do not wish to give them free advertising - and they are all about image, clothing, make-up and looks. I recently watched a film on television with two of my daughters and discovered that a person whom I had always thought was a very attractive young actress had become a different woman. When I said her name, my daughters informed me that I was wrong, but it turned out that I was correct. The botched job done on this woman's face and lips is absolutely appalling and she looks like a different person. She has been a movie icon for many young people for the past 20 years.

Matters become very difficult for young people when they are bombarded with the images and advertisements to which I refer. One of my daughters recently completed a course on cosmetics at the Dún Laoghaire Institute of Art, Design and Technology. She thought that she would immediately break into films as a make-up artist, but the reality has hit home that this is not going to happen. She has a temporary job at a make-up counter in a particular store. I asked her in recent days whether this was what she wanted to do for the remainder of her life. She informed me that it was but that she wanted to do it right. Even though young people are bombarded with advertising images, they are still very clever when it comes to what they want to do and how they want to do it. When we were talking, my daughter came to the realisation that so many people had cosmetic surgery which they either did not need or which - if it was necessary - was a complete failure.

I absolutely agree with what Senator John Crown said about reconstructive surgery. A young man I have come to know very well in recent years contracted very bad cancer of the face and the wonderful job done by doctors to allow him to live his life from day to day is amazing.

Ms Kelly referred to buy-one-get-one-free offers. People can go into their local euro shops or pharmacies and try on non-prescription spectacles. When they discover they can read the little card on the stand in front of them, they suddenly become eye experts. How can pharmacists who operate legitimate businesses allow such stands to be placed on their premises? The people who buy such glasses are deciding for themselves whether they are short sighted or far sighted. I do not know whether it is to such matters that Ms Kelly is referring, but I have a real issue with this behaviour. I know many young people who wear glasses for image purposes. There is nothing wrong with their eyes and they buy glasses simply because they think they look great wearing them. Will Ms Kelly indicate whether this is the type of thing to which she is referring?

I welcome our guests and thank them for their comprehensive presentations, in which they highlight and expose a large number of unacceptable and dangerous practices. I read the material provided last night and, to be honest, came across things which would never have previously come to mind. If one were to walk into one of these surgeries or beauty salons and see certificates on the wall, which indicate the relevant individual is fully registered with the Irish Medical Council, etc., rightly or wrongly, one would presume that the person in question was qualified to do the job one wanted him or her to do.

They have highlighted everything in great detail. The one that came to mind was moles being zapped without any analysis being done on them, with a knock-on effect further down the road in terms of skin cancer. One presumes, if one goes to a surgeon to have cosmetic surgery performed, that one is going to a qualified surgeon, not a medical doctor who is not a surgeon. Rightly or wrongly, I would have presumed that the people in question were qualified and I am sure many in the general population think the same and fail to take on board the bad practices and consequences waiting for them down the road.

What happens with complaints and where surgery goes wrong if we do not have databases and records? How are these things followed up? Have there been deaths attributable to bad practice? What happens in that instance? Is there an age of consent? Can young children undergo this surgery and are there consequences in that regard? I am interested in our guests' opinions on these issues. I thank them, as I have learned a great deal from their comprehensive presentations.

I welcome our guests and thank them for their excellent presentations.

I concur with Senator John Crown on the dermatology service in the south east. Coming from south Tipperary, I am very aware of the inadequate service in the south east, particularly south Tipperary, which has always been less than adequately served by way of an outreach service from what is now Waterford University Hospital. Does Dr. Ormond have any comment to make on developments in the last while in the south east in dermatology services?

Have there been consultations with our guests in the context of the new Advertising Standards Authority for Ireland guidelines? Is there a need for the joint committee to consult and make recommendations to the authority in this area?

Mrs. Margaret O'Donnell

I note that no member of the Irish Association of Plastic Surgeons used PIP implants and that they were never used in any of the public hospitals for breast reconstruction after a mastectomy or in any of the mainstream private hospitals. Their use was confined to commercial clinics and the biggest user has gone out of business. I have seen patients with this problem find their way to me. I have other patients who do not know what implants they received, only that they were operated on in that clinic. It is a big concern and a registry would have been useful in tracking down the type of implant used in these cases. The Australians have set up a database which they are willing to share with other countries; therefore, there is a model offered free of charge which is something that could be looked into here.

Two members asked about deaths. A women died in Dublin in 2007 after gastric banding surgery. That was despite her GP having recommended that she not undergo the procedure owing to other health problems. We do not know if there have been other deaths; that one was highly publicised. As there are no statistics, we cannot tell the joint committee how many breast implants are provided in the country. There is no registry and no database indicating the amount of cosmetic surgeries or other procedures undertaken. The evidence from other countries is that the number of non-surgical cases is rising massively and that such procedures are being performed across the board by all sorts of practitioner. It is correct to say services are being provided beyond the competence of the people providing them. People can set up with any kind of machine or device without restriction. That is where a register of practitioners would help to clarify matters, as one would know if one was seeing a beauty therapist or a plastic surgeon trained to treat X, Y or Z condition. An ophthalmologist should not be providing breast implants but performing eye surgery. This has been done in other countries. In France and Denmark legislation has been enacted to identify the procedures that can be undertaken by each category of practitioner.

Is there a beauty therapist code of practice or regulation?

Mrs. Margaret O'Donnell

There is a European standard for beauty therapists, many of whom are excellent. Often they will pick up on something and send a person to his or her GP. There is a European standard and code of practice for beauty therapy, but it is one of these grey areas. If we look at whether something is medical or consumer-led, somebody mentioned lifestyle choices. I agree. If somebody is seeking medical treatment, a doctor is obliged to treat him or her in his or her best interests. Therefore, one cannot sell the person the thing that is most expensive. One treats the patient in his or her best interests. If someone comes for a lifestyle choice as a consumer, the gates are open. That is the problem. The more one can sell, the more money one can make. There is a blurring between what is medical and what is consumer-led and, with a little thought, people could declare themselves to be one or the other. Patients come to me saying they had conducted all their research and were surprised that X, Y or Z happened. One is looking at them and thinking the research just involved looking at the biggest and glossiest website. It is very difficult for someone who does not understand the nuances of the qualifications of practitioners to make a clear decision.

I want to be clear on a legislative solution to the problem. Mrs. O'Donnell referred specifically to the European standard for surgery. Are the bones of it in law in any European country?

Mrs. Margaret O'Donnell

There are components of it in law. As a standard, it is voluntary and the lowest minimum standard that was acceptable throughout Europe.

In theory, if a law was drafted here which included its elements, it would be all right.

Mrs. Margaret O'Donnell

That would be huge. It covers all sorts of thing, including the disposal of clinical waste, data protection, the training of practitioners and staff, premises and procedures.

Members asked about figures.

Ms Patricia Eadie

There is approximately one person in public practice per 225,000 persons. In the United Kingdom there is approximately one plastic surgeon per 100,000 and it is hoped to get the number down to about one in 80,000. I do not know off the top of my head what the figures are in other European countries.

Dr. Patrick Ormond

I do not have an exact figure, but there are in the region of 40 dermatologists throughout the country, some of whom are in private practice. Certainly, we have one of the lowest rates of dermatologists in Europe and probably in the developed world. That is an ongoing problem and many European countries are trying to train sufficient dermatologists quickly enough to meet the growing demand, in particular to treat skin cancer, given our genetic skin types.

With regard to dermatology services in Waterford, there was an unfortunate and long-term problem where an unsupported single dermatologist managed a huge population of over 250,000 people and eventually I suppose broke under the pressure of trying to cope with the potential risk to patients. The only way he could be taken seriously was to resign which, unfortunately, he did. A second dermatologist who was appointed at the time is on maternity leave. There was no dermatology service in Waterford. The patients have since been taken up by spreading them throughout the functioning departments in Cork and St. James's, Tallaght and Vincent's hospitals. However, these are departments that are already understaffed.

Ms Siobhan Kelly

Regarding eye surgeons, there are approximately 35 public appointees and 22 community ophthalmic positions. We would always argue for additional posts.

We are returning to Deputy Catherine Byrne's point about the chemist and the people.

Ms Siobhan Kelly

We are not talking about two for one spectacles. Our concern is advertising that suggests that one could have laser eye surgery done on two eyes for the price of one.

Mrs. Margaret O'Donnell

The age of consent for medical treatment is 16. It is unclear whether beauty therapies such as fillers, injections and laser treatments come under medical treatment or a consumer purchase. Our association has a guideline that 18 should be the age of consent for somebody considering breast implants and most of us would be slow to consider it for a patient aged 18. In my practice, if somebody aged 18 or 20 comes in, he or she would usually bring a parent, more for advice rather than consent, and one tries to encourage this. I have had patients who have decided to have implants removed. One young woman said she went to a hotel where a clinic was doing a promotion with her friend who wanted implants. She ended up having implants too because she felt she was getting a good deal.

Mrs. Margaret O'Donnell

It is wrong.

Could the witnesses elaborate on a conversation on a local radio station this morning to the effect that a GP can call himself or herself a surgeon after one year's practice? It is appalling. A few months ago a lady appeared on TV3 who had spent €30,000 or €40,000 on cosmetic surgery. We see television presenters and film stars getting facelifts. Can somebody tell me what a facelift is? It is to do with stressing one's skin. Does the skin get all dry and wrinkly? How long does a facelift last? Hip replacements last only a certain number of years and one is allowed only so many hips. Is one allowed only a limited number of facelifts?

Ms Patricia Eadie

When speaking on the radio this morning, I did not mean to refer to GPs, who have to go through a training system, which is regulated by the Irish College of General Practitioners, ICGP. Once one has done one's internship, one can do surgery, if somebody will allow it. There is nothing to say one cannot be a surgeon. One does not need qualifications to make a cut on somebody's skin.

Would one need some kind of insurance policy to open the practice?

Ms Patricia Eadie

One needs insurance to open a practice. However, as Senator Colm Burke has said, people take out an insurance policy to cover a whole clinic and it is an enterprise liability scheme rather than having proper professional indemnity for each practitioner.

Is this a loophole in the system?

Ms Patricia Eadie

Yes. Earlier, the Deputy asked to whom patients complain. A patient who has a complaint about any doctor takes it to the Irish Medical Council, IMC. Previously, the fly-in-fly-out doctors - they fly in to do an operation and fly out again - did not have to be registered with the IMC. Although they are now registered with the IMC, in our experience they do not always come back to address complaints.

If a patient is left with a botched job, who addresses the issue?

Ms Patricia Eadie

If it is an emergency, the patient ends up in the public hospital system and is treated as such. For example, in St. James's Hospital we have treated people who have had a tummy tuck operation after which the skin has opened up and broken down. In a case such as an awful looking breast implant, the person will, hopefully, contact a qualified surgeon and have it redone.

Is Ms Eadie happy that the legislation on insurance that is going through will make some changes?

Ms Patricia Eadie

It will help.

Will the penalties for somebody not having insurance be adequate? Has this been considered? There is no point in bringing forward legislation if somebody can ignore it and continue to provide a service without adequate insurance. What does the standard insurance provided to GP practices cover? Does it cover cosmetic surgery and scanning? The public needs to know. The standard GP has a comprehensive policy for a GP but there are limits to what it will cover. If one has car insurance, one is not covered to drive an articulated lorry; likewise, a GP policy covers a doctor for general practice only. This issue must be clarified because people seem to be happy to accept the service being offered without fully understanding that the person offering it does not have adequate insurance.

Mrs. Margaret O'Donnell

It is very difficult to answer because I do not know. Every member of the Irish Association of Plastic Surgeons, IAPS, has personal professional indemnity insurance. If a commercial clinic has doctors, nurses or therapists, I do not know whether those people have professional indemnity in addition to the enterprise insurance. If I were to laser a patient to erase red veins or brown marks, it would come under my professional indemnity as a plastic surgeon, which costs a phenomenal amount of money. A therapist doing a laser treatment on the same lesion does not pay anything like the same amount. The Senator is correct, in that separate insurance is required for a truck or a car. While the Medical Protection Society, MPS, which insures most surgeons, asks for one's range of practice, it is a bit blurred in cases where people are working outside their level of competence, as the Deputy described. I can see where the problems are, if that helps us find the answers.

Is there no regulation at all, or limited regulation, on the cosmetic surgery industry?

Ms Patricia Eadie

There is no regulation.

None at all?

Ms Patricia Eadie

No.

Ms Eadie referred to the fly-in-fly-out doctors.

Ms Patricia Eadie

They must now be registered with the IMC. However, if a doctor's home base is Italy or somewhere else, he or she might decide never to return to Ireland.

Under new legislation, they will have to have insurance.

Mrs. Margaret O'Donnell

Although the insurance will at least compensate the patient, it will not help regulation or stop issues arising in the first place.

It will be a de facto degree of regulation.

Mrs. Margaret O'Donnell

However, many of the clinics just hire somebody else. It has been a revolving door.

Has the IAPS engaged with the Health Products Regulatory Board?

Mrs. Margaret O'Donnell

Yes, for example it regulates botulinum toxin, whose common trade name is Botox. As it is a drug, it can be administered only by a doctor. A few weeks ago, a beauty therapist was fined €6,000 for importing Botox online from another country and administering it to patients. Importing and administering a medication without a prescription and without being a practitioner is against the law.

Deputy Fitzpatrick's comment prompts me to ask this. If one walks into a beauty therapy salon and is offered Botox as part of a two-for-one deal, must it be a medical practitioner who injects the Botox?

Mrs. Margaret O'Donnell

Yes, by law.

If I go to a beautician tomorrow and sign up to get Botox, is there nothing in theory preventing the beauty therapist from injecting the Botox?

Mrs. Margaret O'Donnell

The law would prevent it.

Who monitors and regulates the beauty therapists?

Mrs. Margaret O'Donnell

It is a question of regulation. The beauty therapists would have a code of practice; I do not know to what extent it is enforced. A dermal filler is also administered by injection and is put under the skin to get rid of wrinkles.

A filler is classified as a device because it is not an active agent. Although it is injected, it is a device. It is open to anybody to use because it does not require a doctor. Fillers are of great concern in the United Kingdom, where the authorities have said there is more regulation for a ballpoint pen that for dermal fillers. That is a problem.

A concern associated with people spending vast amounts of money is a condition called body dismorphic disorder. Perhaps 2% or 3% of the population have a condition whereby they do not see themselves in the way others see them, and they are attracted to more and more procedures. A number of them have body dismorphic disorder. It is part of a surgeon's training to be aware not only of the technical and academic aspects but also of the moral and ethical aspects. It involves identifying patients who give rise to concern and in respect of whom a procedure may be more harmful than good.

Deputy Fitzpatrick had a question about facelifts.

Mrs. Margaret O'Donnell

The true facelift is a surgical procedure. Typically, it takes approximately six hours.

In one go?

Mrs. Margaret O'Donnell

Yes. It is a major procedure, with a high risk of complications, including serious permanent complications. It is not to be done lightly and it takes a number of weeks to recover. Done well, a facelift can have lovely and very natural looking results. It is frustrating that some of these kinds of procedures are sometimes touted as being all bad. If carried out properly, one can look natural and good.

The non-surgical facelift is becoming more common. It is not an operation. A wide variety of practitioners are offering this, using the name "facelift". What they are doing is giving injections and laser treatments. Botox gets rid of some of the wrinkle lines, and fillers are used to get rid of others. Lasers are used to get rid of fine lines or discolouration. All sorts of names are used to describe the combination of these treatments. There is a facelift called the "Dracula facelift" whereby some blood from the system is aspirated and spun around in a centrifuge, after which one re-injects the serum from it. There is no proof that it works but it is being offered for vast amounts of money. With a catchy name, it captures the public imagination.

Dracula will do that anyway. It is scary.

Mrs. Margaret O'Donnell

It is frustrating because many people are being misled.

For how long does it last?

Mrs. Margaret O'Donnell

If one had it done, one could reverse the clock a bit. One would lose some of the saggy skin and in ten years' time one might look younger than one's contemporaries. One still ages; the clock starts again. One does not stay at the perceived age forever because the skin loosens and gradually stretches over time. One would get ten to 15 years out of the procedure.

Does the skin actually loosen again?

Mrs. Margaret O'Donnell

Yes. Gravity applies and life happens. Over time, the skin gradually stretches. It is the same with all these procedures. One needs to give the recipient the long-term view.

Forgive me for not remembering the answer. Roughly how many people present for cosmetic surgery in Ireland per annum?

Mrs. Margaret O'Donnell

I have no idea.

There is no register of that either.

Mrs. Margaret O'Donnell

No

I wish to ask Dr. Ormond about dermatology. A constituent contacted me one day about microdermabrasion carried out by a beauty therapist. Is that an issue for a doctor, dermatologist or beauty treatment centre? The constituent was badly burnt as a consequence of what happened.

Dr. Patrick Ormond

Microdermabrasion, which essentially involves using a very fine blast of fine particles to resurface and smoothen the skin — think of sanding and polishing a table — can be beneficial, like all the cosmetic procedures that can be done. However, there is always a subset of people to whom the procedures will cause damage. It is important to have properly qualified practitioners because they know what is abnormal before they start. We are trained to recognise disease and what is abnormal so we will know not to treat such conditions. Dermatologists, plastic surgeons and ophthalmologists go through such a long period of training to learn what is abnormal and when a problem will develop so they will not laser a potential skin cancer or carry out a surgical procedure on somebody with a bleeding disorder.

Microdermabrasion, which is widely available in salons and beauticians' practices, and procedures right up to full plastic surgery have benefits for patients, both psychologically and cosmetically, but they can also have an adverse effect, like everything in life. To return to the points of Deputy Sandra McLellan and Senator Jillian van Turnhout, it is a question of knowing the facts. When one sees the website or glossy magazine, one does not know what one is getting; it is not clear. Consumers and patients need clarity so that if they see a dermatologist or beautician, he or she will be qualified. If they are seeing an ophthalmologist or plastic surgeon, they should know what they are getting. It is a matter of the correct usage of wording and not playing around. That is so important. As always, the well educated and well connected will be sent to the right people. However, it is perhaps the most vulnerable, because they are seeing the advertising, who will not know who to talk to or where to go for advice when thinking of having a breast lift or Botox. They will be targeted by advertising. Monitoring advertising and ensuring it does not mislead are important. It is not only the actresses and soap stars who are having these procedures; people on the street are having them as perfectly normal procedures. It is trivialised in our everyday life, yet it is potentially life threatening.

I was asked whether there have been deaths. Within the last four years of my practice, there have been two deaths from mismanaged moles in young men.

Was that as a consequence of treatment outside Mr. Ormond's practice?

Dr. Patrick Ormond

Yes.

What is the position on the Advertising Standards Authority?

Mrs. Margaret O'Donnell

It is consulting the specialties.

With regard to ophthalmology and getting laser treatment, I presume the procedures are done professionally. They cannot be done by a five-eighth person setting up in the back of a garage or whatever.

Ms Siobhan Kelly

Yes. I shall make a general point first. We are not here to alarm people unnecessarily. People have procedures all the time and are very happy with them. Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin suggested it is mostly women who have them but the image issue affects both boys and girls. We are looking to the future in this regard. I am the mother of three young sons and believe these issues will affect both males and females.

Deputy Fitzpatrick has confirmed that.

Ms Siobhan Kelly

It is really about awareness. We live in an information society and it is very difficult to decipher what is reliable from what is not. We have to move with the times. In the 1950s and 1960s, it was considered perfectly reasonable to advertise cigarette smoking. Therefore, we must really think this through and have as much expert input as possible. We need to ensure that certain advertising standards govern information given to the public, and that is why we are here today.

My question is slightly off the topic of cosmetics and concerns other areas of plastics. I had occasion recently to make inquiries on behalf of somebody whose child had suffered a severe burn injury abroad. Do we have enough burn beds? Do we have enough paediatric and adult burn beds? Is the unit adequately staffed and resourced?

I have received a number of distressing items of correspondence from a few people with respect to the failure of insurance companies to cover them for reconstructive breast surgery when they have not had cancer but a clear-cut genetic syndrome meaning a very high likelihood of getting cancer. Sadly, one of the most standard treatments is to recommend to the women that they have their breasts removed preventively before they could develop cancer. An incredibly integral component of cancer care is the making available of genetic testing, prophylactic surgery and reconstruction.

Does Mrs. O'Donnell care to comment on the current situation in that respect?

Mrs. Margaret O'Donnell

We will take Deputy Byrne's question first. I was the consultant in charge of the national burns unit in St. James's Hospital for ten years. I am no longer, but Ms Eadie works there and maybe she will take the burns question.

Ms Patricia Eadie

I work in Crumlin hospital as well. We do not have a paediatric burns unit. Crumlin hospital takes paediatric burns greater than 10% of the body surface area, but we will pretty much take all burns. We have had a major issue there in that we have a 20% reduction in our theatre space. Recently we sent two burns cases to the United Kingdom because we felt we did not have the safe facilities to look after them here. I refer to the paediatric burns. It was because we do not have adequate theatre space. We do not have a paediatric burns surgeon, despite having an application in for one for quite a number of years.

Where is the blockage in that regard? Is it that the post has not been approved or that no one is applying for it?

Ms Patricia Eadie

The post has not been financially approved.

Your Honour, I rest my case.

Ms Patricia Eadie

The Department of Finance, basically. It would start from the top in that we would need a lead surgeon around whom we would build the burns centre or unit. We would want that surgeon to link in to St. James's Hospital where the main burns centre is in order that there would be crossover between adults and paediatrics.

We have a 14-bed burns unit in St. James's Hospital. It has deficiencies. We have a burns surgeon there who took over from Mrs. O'Donnell who was in the job previously. He has major submissions in as well to try to upgrade that centre. We have problems with the fact we can only have three intensive care unit beds there. There can be times when we have not enough nursing staff to look after patients and we have had to say we cannot take any more burns cases.

Where do they go?

Ms Patricia Eadie

They stay in the referring hospital until we have-----

This is helpful and I thank Ms Eadie. There are patients in the Republic who get severe burn injuries who cannot access specialist burns services.

Ms Patricia Eadie

In a timely manner. They will get taken, maybe the following day or the next.

When Ms Eadie says "timely manner", does she mean 24 hours, 48 hours or seven days?

Ms Patricia Eadie

Normally, with a major burn, we will take them straight away and look after them. Generally, it is 24 hours.

I presume there is a degree of time sensitivity as to whether one will survive a burn injury in terms of getting help.

Ms Patricia Eadie

Yes, the first few hours.

Does Ms Eadie have any concerns that sometimes a patient's survival is in danger of being compromised?

Ms Patricia Eadie

Yes.

That is one big message we need to take from today.

Given the total amount of cosmetic surgery done in Ireland, have we any idea of the number travelling abroad for cosmetic surgery? Are we coming across problems where persons have gone abroad for cosmetic surgery, come back into the system here and it has had to pick up on mistakes made?

Mrs. Margaret O'Donnell

We do not have numbers but we know it is happening. There are a lot of advertisements for having things done in different countries. There is one big commercial group which advertises in Ireland but takes the patients to the United Kingdom for the surgery, and then they come back to Ireland. That is not terribly clear from the beginning and patients will see somebody locally in a clinic here, but the surgery is done elsewhere. Those patients are not necessarily choosing to have their surgery elsewhere. It happens that way. Then there is a separate group who decide they will go on the cosmetic surgery tourism holiday and go for a beach trip after their treatment. I have seen a couple of patients who have come back with problems. That is not to say everybody will be treated badly but it makes it difficult for a patient coming back whenever he or she has a problem to seek follow-up.

Is it happening, where patients are coming back into the service here after mistakes being made elsewhere?

Mrs. Margaret O'Donnell

Yes.

Two issues occurred to me while Mrs. O'Donnell was speaking. By comparison with other European countries, has she any statistics on the number in this country who have had professional cosmetic surgery? I accept she cannot talk about the other scenario but I wonder in that regard.

As somebody who was badly burnt when I was aged four and who spent months in Dr. Steevens' Hospital, I am shocked to think that we do not have in this country in this day and age a head surgeon for children with burns in the paediatric hospital that is serving the country and which is only a ten-minute walk from my home. I am horrified. I did not know that. This is something the committee should look at. If it is all down to finance, I can say this.

In the context of the new national children's hospital, have there been discussions on a paediatric burns unit and a paediatric surgeon for that particular specialty?

Ms Patricia Eadie

There will be an area in the national children's hospital but in that hospital, which will be an amalgamation of the three children's hospitals, there is no definite increase in the number of consultant staff or anything like that. It will probably be what we have now. We will come in with that.

Is it the norm in other European countries to have a specific paediatric burns unit?

Ms Patricia Eadie

Yes. It is usually adjacent to or close by the adult burns unit in order that expertise can be shared, because there are far more significant burns in the adult population and it is good that one can pool resources.

Mrs. Margaret O'Donnell

On Senator Crown's comment about prophylactic mastectomy for patients with breast cancer, I utterly agree with him that we are having regular and ongoing difficulties in having those patients-----

With the private health insurance companies?

Mrs. Margaret O'Donnell

Yes.

Is one of those companies VHI Healthcare?

We will not name the companies in public.

VHI Healthcare is a public-----

Mrs. Margaret O'Donnell

It is across the board. I have had experience. I am regularly writing-----

We cannot tell a private company what to do but VHI Healthcare has one shareholder who is the Minister for Health, Deputy Varadkar.

Mrs. Margaret O'Donnell

It is a regular matter of writing. If they do have a mastectomy, there is a reluctance to have reconstruction, but that is a component part of having a mastectomy to prevent oncoming breast cancer. The reconstruction would be our end of it.

I propose as a consequence of this deliberation that we would continue to do further work around the issue of cosmetic surgery, that we might invite, as part of our deliberations in the new year, the Health Products Regulatory Authority to seek an update on our discussion, along with writing to the Advertising Standards Authority of Ireland regarding the issue of advertising, that we would write to the Minister for Health in the context of the presentations this morning, that we might consider inviting the Chief Medical Officer or the relevant Department official in the context of the opening half of our discussion, that we would look at the issue of beauty therapy and beauty therapists in regulation, that we would as a consequence take up with the Minister the subject of our conversation on the issue of burns and the remarks made at this meeting, and that we would seek further clarification in that regard.

I would make one addendum to the proposal I made in relation to the two written submissions.

That is included.

I accept that. It is important that there is a cover note from the committee expressing our unanimous view that the information contained must not only be noted, but acted upon with extreme urgency. That is the only reason we are talking this course of action.

Is that agreed? Agreed. I thank Ms Eadie, Mrs. O'Donnell, Ms Kelly and Dr. Ormond for being here this morning and for an interesting presentation. Even though there may have been a levity and jocosity about some of the matters, it is a serious issue. In their presentation, they highlighted deficiencies. They highlighted that in some cases there are vulnerable persons being targeted with the glossy image and the before and after pictures which, as they stated, sometimes are not the reality. It is an issue we will revisit.

Sitting suspended at 11.20 a.m. and resumed at 11.35 a.m.
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