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Joint Committee on Health and Children debate -
Friday, 17 Jul 2015

Irish Blood Transfusion Service: Chairperson Designate

Apologies have been received from Deputy McLellan, who has to go to another meeting, Senator van Turnhout and Deputy Mitchell O'Connor. Our second session is an engagement with the chairperson of the Irish Blood Transfusion Service, Professor Anthony Staines, whom I welcome. As part of its scrutiny role of key appointments in the health area, the Joint Committee on Health and Children has been asked to meet and engage with the chairpersons designate of certain boards.

I wish to advise witnesses that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing ruling of the Chair to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or any official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Professor Anthony Staines

I thank the Chair for inviting me to appear before the committee today. I have had the honour of being proposed for re-appointment as chair of the Irish Blood Transfusion Service. I am a doctor, a graduate of Trinity and a registered specialist in public health with the Irish Medical Council. I trained in Dublin and then in Yorkshire, before coming back to Ireland in 1997. I have worked as an academic since then, for ten years in UCD and for the last eight in DCU where I am the professor of health systems in the school of nursing and human sciences. I have qualifications in medicine, epidemiology, public health, education and board governance.

I am an applied public health researcher, that is, my work is mostly directed to specific, immediately applicable ends. I have done a lot of academic work on specific types of cancer, namely, leukaemias and lymphomas, and have worked closely with many Irish haematologists as part of this. My more recent work has been on the delivery of services. I have worked on resource allocation for the Irish health services. I have spent much of the last two years working on a draft strategy for ICT in the Health Service Executive. I have worked, and led, EU-funded projects including several major projects on child health and environmental health.

Very relevant to this session, I worked for the national blood strategy implementation group and did the fieldwork and analysis of blood use in Ireland for the report which came out in 2004. I also worked closely with the IBTS, and in particular with the medical director and the then operations manager, to look at stock management in the Irish blood services. This work was funded from 2004 to 2007 by the health research board and the Department of Health and Social Security in Northern Ireland. I was asked to serve as chair of the IBTS a little over three years ago. The invitation was unexpected but I felt that I would have something to offer the organisation, both because of my prior detailed knowledge of the practice and policy on blood use in Ireland and because of my organisational and leadership skills.

I was very conscious of my limited board experience and I have taken every opportunity to improve my skills in this area, including attending board induction sessions and training sessions at the Institute of Public Administration. I am now coming to the end of the Institute of Directors chartered director program, which includes formal training in governance, board performance, strategic planning and general management.

When I came into the post, my board colleagues and I were very clear on our core mission, to provide a safe, secure and reliable blood supply to the people and the health service of Ireland. The tragic history of the infection of many Irish blood product recipients by the Blood Transfusion Service Board will be familiar to members and I assure them it is always to the forefront of my mind.

The IBTS is, among other things, one of the largest voluntary organisations in Ireland. We have donors from almost every parish in the country and a network of local voluntary organisers who support our collection teams in running donation clinics all over the country and in persuading local people to attend. The care of our donors is also a high priority for us. I have the privilege and the very great pleasure of making awards to donors who have donated 50 and 100 times at a series of award dinners held around the country. Our donors are remarkable people and every time I meet them I become more convinced of this.

On taking on the role over three years ago, my colleagues and I identified two big issues which had to be dealt with. Both were of practical significance to the organisation and both took a large proportion of both board time and executive time. The first of these was the Cork centre. A debate had gone on for 12 years with no final resolution as to the nature and needs of our Cork centre. Now, thanks to a great deal of work from our own executive, colleagues in the Health Service Executive, the Department of Health and Cork University Hospital-UCC medical school, an agreement has been reached, and approved by the Minister, to develop a new centre on the CUH site in Cork. This will be a major new laboratory facility, supporting both our own staff's very specialised work with the most complex transfusion cases and the transfusion work now being done by other hospital laboratories in Cork. There will be a donor collection centre, a major blood stock holding centre with one half of the Irish blood stock, and facilities for platelet collection and plasma apheresis.

The second issue was the IBTS pension fund. This is a public sector pension fund but it is run by the IBTS. In common with many other private sector pension funds it is running a deficit. This deficit arises from several sources, such as changes in demography, low bond yields, and the recent recession. This is a major issue for our staff and it inhibits the transfer of staff from the IBTS to equivalent posts in the HSE. After a great deal of work, and with immense support from the Department of Health, we believe that the pension fund issue may be close to resolution and that a fair and equitable solution respecting the rights of our staff, our current pensioners, and our parent Department can be reached. Active work continues on this. Joint agreement from our parent Department and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform is required.

The pension fund is driving a steadily increasing deficit in the IBTS. Our core business is paying for itself, but the requirement to continue funding pension fund deficits, currently of the order of between €2 million and €3 million a year, is destabilising our finances. Despite extensive cost-cutting, and reductions in headcount, we now need either to sharply increase the cost of our products, or to achieve a reasonable resolution to the pension fund.

Another very important piece of work, which took a good deal of time, was the preparation of a full business continuity plan for the IBTS. This is our contingency plan for any incident threatening our ability to provide a safe and secure blood supply, up to and including the complete destruction of the National Blood Centre.

This has been a very large change project, including moving to single site testing and processing, developing and testing and service level agreements with our suppliers and our international partners to ensure continuity of supply. There were two other important managerial projects delivered over this time. The first was a move to full activity-based costing. Unlike most public bodies, and, indeed, many private sector providers, the IBTS can now accurately cost our services. A second major change project was the introduction of a new IT system to the organisation. This has taken a little over three years to set up and establish, and is due to go live later this summer. Thanks are due to our staff, executive and parent Department for their hard work and support on these major changes.

We have one major challenge, that is, the declining use of blood products. Over the last few years the use of red cells and platelets, our main products, has fallen sharply, by around 13% over the last five years. Incidentally, this is desirable and is something we want to happen. It is hard to know what the optimum level of blood product use is, but Ireland was using more product per head than many of our peers four years ago. We are now using product at a level comparable to that of the best-performing EU countries.

Managing the impact of this on our bottom line has been a real challenge. In common with other public sector bodies, our budget and head count have fallen sharply over the last four years. The additional challenge of falling sales has been difficult to manage. As far as we can see, the decline in blood product usage has now levelled out. We expect that it will begin to rise slightly over the next four or five years, due to an aging population and the expected increase in hospital activity.

The IBTS must have sufficient funds to continue to invest in staff training, equipment maintenance and upgrades and responding to new technologies and challenges. We are now living on past investments. It will be necessary to make further investments in new testing and product preparation methods over the next five years, and we do not currently have the resources to do this.

There are two specific challenges facing us. The first is specific. There is a human virus known as hepatitis E. This virus is spread from pigs and undercooked pork meat products, but it can be also be spread through blood transfusion. The illness caused is mild, but people who are immunosuppressed, for example transplant recipients such as myself, or people with cancer, may be at greater risk of long-term illness. A test for this virus is now available, and we need to make a decision on how to bring this test into routine use and how to fund it.

The second is a longer-term, and more strategic, challenge. As well as blood products, we currently provide a limited number of tissue services, mostly valves for heart surgery and corneas for transplants, and a small number of other tissues, as well as a new service for limbal stem cells used in the repair of serious eye injuries. These services will become more important over time. At the current time stem cell treatments are prepared in five or six places in the Republic. It is hard to argue that this represents the best use of public money. There is a strong economic case, and perhaps a patient safety and quality case, for these services to be further developed on one site. The IBTS is keen to contribute to this work.

I thank Professor Staines and compliment him on his excellent CV and list of publications and research funding. It was most impressive reading. I also thank him for the very informative presentation.

I welcome Professor Staines. This is most academic indeed. He has been the chair of the IBTS over the past three years and I am at a loss to understand why the Minister thinks we should be having a chat with him. We wish him well and continued success in his role on the board of the IBTS.

Among the priority issues he signalled today, I ask Professor Staines to address over the next number of years the matter of the prospective use, rather than disposal, of blood provided by those suffering from haemochromatosis. He indicated a personal situation in his presentation, namely, himself, and I include myself in that. I am a former voluntary blood donor who had a silver pelican and wanted to do better. It transpired that I had haemochromatosis, which involves retaining too much iron in the blood. People buy iron supplements from pharmacies up and down the country, when a couple of pints of what I am carrying around with me would do them a world of good. It is beyond my comprehension why such blood is not employed by the health service, as it is in other countries, including in the United States and elsewhere where no differentiation is made. Many of us who attend for venesections and phlebotomy from time to time find it is part of the discourse for an ever-growing number of Irish people because it has a more significant presence among our number than in other nationalities. It is prevalent among the Irish and Scottish. It is suggested it is a footprint in the sand of our genealogical make-up going back in time.

I am interested in hearing what Professor Staines has to say about it and whether he has any views at this point in time. If not, I would encourage him to examine the issue because it is a matter of considerable concern that the blood we give, which is of more than usable quality, is simply disposed of - I understand it is incinerated.

I refer to the other area of interest highlighted by Professor Staines, namely, the developing range of products the IBTS currently provides. I would not have known but for the presentation today that the IBTS has moved into other tissue services such as valves for heart surgery, corneas for transplants, a small number of other tissues and the new service for limbal stem cells. How long has this other area of development been in situ? Was the IBTS the perceived appropriate vehicle to provide these additional needs in terms of transplant services? I would agree that if this is an area in which the IBTS is involved it will most definitely be an area of greater focus and interest in the future. Perhaps Professor Staines might elaborate on that.

Is it the case that for those who make the decision to donate body tissues on the expiry of life, corneas are removed and the IBTS is the receiving body for their allocation to others who will benefit?

There is a vote in the Seanad.

I will close to give the Senator a brief moment before he runs helter-skelter to make it to the Seanad Chamber. I thank Professor Staines for listening to me.

I thank Professor Staines for his presentation and wish him every success in his role. I have two issues I want to check with him. He referred to the development of the Cork centre. What timescale is involved in terms of planning before everything will be in place? My second issue concerns haemochromatosis, to which Deputy Ó Caoláin referred. I met a GP in the Cork area, who had also met the IBTS, regarding the cost of people with haemochromatosis going into hospital and having blood taken which is sent for incineration. I understand the GP concerned has worked with the IBTS about rolling out a service whereby a GP would provide the same service as provided in hospitals, but there seems to be a problem with getting the HSE on board. Can some progress be made on the matter?

I understand funding was sought from UCC to conduct a research project on cutting costs. The cost to provide the service in CUH is approximately €300 per person, whereas GPs could roll it out at a cost of about €100 per visit. Considering whether we could develop that is extremely important. Linking in with the IBTS would deal with the issues raised by Deputy Ó Caoláin.

I concur with Senator Colm Burke on the project in Cork to which he referred. I have also met the same person with the Senator.

Does Senator Catherine Byrne have questions?

I do not really, as I did not know if I would be coming here. I am not very good when it comes to blood and I am very bad with needles. Talking about blood is not my forte, but two things jump off the page, one of which is the major challenge presented by the decline in blood products in the past few years and the use of red cells and platelets. What is the reason for this? I do not understand what it is about. The other matter concerns the virus in pork. Pork is my favourite dish, but we will not go into that. I was, however, interested in what was said about it.

One thing I know about is blood products and blood donors. I am not a donor because of a previous long-term illness because of which I cannot give blood. I would have liked to do so, but, unfortunately, I had an illness when I was a child. I have just spent two weeks in the children's hospital with my grandson who has been there for a while and I was fascinated by the scenario of young children receiving blood. I was speaking to the parent of a little baby who had such a rare disease that he could only receive blood of a certain type. Are there statistics for the numbers of people in the country with the different blood types? What is the blood type particular medical cases can only receive?

Unlike Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin and similar to Deputy Catherine Byrne, as a gay man I cannot donate blood. I note the Minister's policy articulation and the work of Mr. Tiernan Brady from GLEN. I have met Professor Murphy with Mr. Brady on the MSM policy and same-sex couples being able to donate blood. Does Professor Staines have a comment to make on it?

Professor Anthony Staines

I will start at the top with Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin's comments. I thank him for his kind words. It was very nice of him to say it. He is absolutely right about haemochromatosis. It is one of the issues I raised the first time I met the medical director on taking over as chairman. He and I both felt what we were doing was foolish because we were taking blood from people and throwing it away. We have set up two clinics, one in Dublin and the other in Limerick, and will be setting up further ones, at which we provide a service where we take blood from a person who needs a venesection which is typically prescribed by his or her general practitioner or consultant. If the person is eligible to donate - everyone is not suitable for the reasons to which Deputy Catherine Byrne alluded - he or she can choose to do so. It is entirely a free choice for the individual. If he or she chooses to become a donor, we will take his or her blood, test, treat and process it, just like everybody else's. If he or she chooses not to donate, we will take blood in a special bag in order that there can be no possibility of error and dispose of it. Our objective this year is to roll out the service to all of our donor clinics. We have a new IT system which will I hope be installed next month. Once it is working and has bedded down, we hope people with haemochromatosis will be able to donate anywhere in the country and at any routine donor clinic. We are collecting quite an amount of blood in D'Olier Street, Limerick and Stillorgan from people with haemochromatosis.

Professor Anthony Staines

Yes. We are negotiating with the HSE on how we can be paid for it. If we take blood from people who are not donors, there is a significant cost to us. We are negotiating with the HSE on who pays for it. On the whole we would prefer if the HSE paid for it. We are much cheaper than hospitals because it is the only thing we do. It takes a significant load off the hospitals. As such, haemochromatosis consultants are keen that we deploy the service further and faster. That is our objective. We have started, but we have a way to go yet.

The second issue referred to was the product mix. We started almost by accident - I think 30 years ago - because somebody was needed to mind heart valves that were being used for heart surgery. The Blood Transfusion Service Board seemed to have the right set of skills and we started by accident, but it has always been a very small-scale part of our activities. It has expanded a little during the years, but our view is that tissue and stem cell services will probably expand substantially in the next decade. There is a need for a strategic conversation on how best to meet that need. We are a highly regulated manufacturer of bio-pharmaceuticals; that is what blood transfusion is about. As such, we have certain skills to bring to the table. However, we are not saying we should do it. That might be how it will end up, but for the moment we are saying we should have a conversation nationally about what is the right, the most effective and safest way to do it for our service and patients. We wish to contribute to that conversation.

There has been a very long, drawn-out discussion about Cork centres. In fact, it started when I came back to Ireland in 1997 and we have been around the houses several times. The final upshot is that we have reached agreement with the Department, Cork University Hospital, CUH, and UCC, which are the relevant parties. We have a facility at St. Finbarr's Hospital which really needs to be rebuilt. It is located in prefabricated buildings and no longer fit for purpose. We have arranged with CUH to build it on a site there. I am told the project team is meeting this month. CUH appointed its delegate to the project team three or four days ago and I gather the plan is to meet this month. We will proceed to planning as swiftly as possible. All going well, we hope to go to planning by Christmas. That is our objective. What we will end up with is a single transfusion centre in Cork in which we will undertake very complex transfusions in which our staff specialise. That is one of the reasons we want to keep the centre in Cork. It is a huge asset to Cork University Hospital which is a very large haematological centre. We will also be able to support the more day-to-day transfusion work. It will allow us to provide our specialised services at a reasonable cost. The service we are providing is not viable as we have quite a number of staff who do not have enough routine work to do to pay their salaries. However, we need the staff to provide the on-call complex transfusion service. This will be a much more stable solution. In the longer term there will be a very good blood centre in Cork providing what we hope will be a really good service for the people of the south and south west. That is our objective.

In reducing the use of blood, there are two sayings in the transfusion business. One is that the most dangerous transfusion is the one you do not need. Giving people blood products is inherently unsafe. There are inherent risks. Our job is to reduce these risks to the lowest possible level. I have had approximately 130 blood transfusions and 100 platelet and plasma transfusions and been at the sharp end of this. We believe our blood products are as safe as we can make them, but there is a limit to how safe one can make them. On the other hand, the next most dangerous blood transfusion is the one you do not have when you need it. Doctors always tread a line between giving blood too freely and not giving enough. I did some work for the national blood strategy implementation group in 2003 and note that in the past doctors used to prescribe two, four or six units of blood. Now, the most common prescription is for a single unit, which is probably right. We understand much better that raising a person's haemoglobin level does not do a huge amount. People can function quite well on a low haemoglobin level and raise their own as they recover after surgery or suffering a trauma.

People are therefore using less blood. We already know that as the population ages, the number of cancer cases will go up. A lot of our blood is used by people with cancer, so we expect that over the next decade the demand for blood will rise again. Our demand for blood was quite high by European standards, whereas it is now low by European standards and will probably go up a bit.

I was trying to explain to one of our new board members, who came from a stockbroker's, why it was in our interest as a trading organisation to reduce demand for our product. It took her a while to get her head around it, but she understood it. Part of our remit is to manage blood use effectively across the country. We have set up a national transfusion committee, which is chaired by one of our consultants. That is designed to provide guidance, advice and training on the proper and effective use of blood and blood products. That is our objective.

Hepatitis E is a fairly new virus. We are struggling to explain it because when people hear "hepatitis virus" they tend to think of hepatitis C, which is the one that caused such devastation from the anti-D that we produced, I am ashamed to say. The hepatitis E virus is relatively newly identified. It causes a disease much more like what used to be called juvenile or infant hepatitis, which is hepatitis A. It tends to be mild and almost everybody gets better. I am not saying it is negligible; it is not. However, it is not nearly as serious as hepatitis B or C. One can get it from pork and it is commoner where one eats a lot of pork sausages, salamis and hams. People who work with pigs are inclined to get infected by this virus and one can transmit it in blood.

A test has been available only since Christmas 2014. We have done a lot of preliminary work on how and who to test. We are now discussing how much it will cost with the Department because we do not have enough money in our own resources to do it. We are having a discussion with the Department of Health about the most effective model for testing and we hope to introduce it in the next while.

Deputy Catherine Byrne asked about donors and kids. A small number of people require multiple transfusions, and a number of them are children. We provide those transfusions. There might be eight or ten donors who donate to those children in Ireland. We take blood from those people and earmark it for those children. We have quite a sophisticated patient-centred process around a relatively small number of children. These are the complex transfusions I was mentioning. We also get complex transfusion problems in adults. We often have matched donors, so we have the information. We have detailed blood groups which go on for about half a page on a large number of people. We draw from those and also work with colleagues abroad to meet some specialised requirements.

The last issue mentioned was the lifetime deferral for men who have sex with men. At the moment, our policy is that if a man has had sex with a man, he is deferred from donating for life. This policy was introduced in the early 1980s at the time of the AIDS epidemic. Different blood services across Europe now have a range of different policies. Some of them have a lifetime deferral policy, while some have a deferral for two or five years. Some services have a policy which says they are interested in a person's sexual history. They are essentially interested if a person has had sex with a new partner recently, because that is where the risk arises.

The issue that arises is that there is a window period between the time one becomes infected with something and the time our test can detect it. The window period is very short - it is six to seven days - but it is not zero. Therefore, there is a small risk that if a person was just infected with HIV, hepatitis B, and we took blood from them in all innocence our test could miss that the person had been infected. We might give that blood to somebody else and the risk of transmission there is not negligible.

We have reviewed the policies across Europe. We are part of a European group of bloodbanks and have had discussions with members of that group. Our chief executive is the vice-president of that group at the moment. We are doing a very detailed risk assessment. We have done the first draft of it and are now going to prepare the second draft. We hope it will be finished in the autumn of this year. At that time, we will bring the draft to our board and to the Department. The discussion will be about our policy and the risk, as well as a couple of other policies and how they will change the risk. We will have to make a decision as to what is the safest policy for our donors and recipients, and what is the fairest policy for all the people in the country.

Has there been much engagement with organisations like GLEN? I know that Mr. Tiernan Brady from GLEN has been very involved in the articulation of a different type of policy. Has the board had any discussion on this with GLEN?

Professor Anthony Staines

We have had a lengthy discussion on it as a board. We have met Mr. Tiernan Brady and members of the executive have. There have been discussions with GLEN and other groups. We are open to making a change, but if we do so it will be based on the evidence that we can accumulate, and our best estimate of the risks of making a change. We know the risks of our existing policy, which are not zero. The question we have to answer, however, is what are the risks of a different policy.

Is that all?

That is all, yes.

I am sorry, but I was in the Seanad. I wanted to join the meeting to welcome Professor Staines.

Senator Colm Burke raised an issue. I will not delay the meeting but it is a local issue in Cork. There has been a proposal which is worth exploring. Both Senator Burke and I have met with that GP.

Professor Anthony Staines

If it is the person I think it is, our medical director has met with that person as well. We are having discussions about it. We are not quite sure how it will pan out, but we want to have a haemochromatosis service that is accessible to everybody. In that case, one would not have to attend a clinic 40 or 100 miles from one's house for a venesection. We have to figure out what is the best and most economical way to achieve that.

I wish to thank Professor Staines for appearing before the joint committee and for a very engaging discussion. I appreciate Senator van Turnhout making the effort to come back from the Seanad.

We will send a transcript of today's proceedings to the Minister. Is that agreed? Agreed.

We wish Professor Staines well.

We wish him well. Like Deputy Ó Caoláin, I did not think there was a need for Professor Staines to engage with the committee because he is already acting as IBTS chairperson and doing a very good job. I want to wish him well on behalf of us all.

Professor Anthony Staines

Thank you, Chairman.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.10 p.m. sine die.
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