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Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage debate -
Tuesday, 18 May 2021

Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the General Scheme of the Local Government (Directly Elected Mayor with Executive Functions in Limerick City and County) Bill 2021

We are joined by the Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage with responsibility for local government and planning, Deputy Peter Burke. The opening statement and briefing material have been circulated to members. Today we will commence pre-legislative scrutiny on the general scheme of the local government (directly elected mayor with executive functions in Limerick city & county) Bill 2021. First, I will ask the Minister of State for his opening statement and then members be will invited members to address their questions.

Members attending remotely within the Leinster House complex are protected by absolute privilege. This means they have absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say in the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege. I remind members of the constitutional requirements that members must be physically present within the confines of the place where Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House and the convention centre. For witnesses attending remotely, there are some limitations to parliamentary privilege. As such, they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a person who is physically present does. The opening statements submitted to the committee will be published on the committee website after this meeting.

I welcome the Minister of State to the committee. We will commence pre-legislative scrutiny on the directly elected mayor Bill, an important and possibly landmark moment in Irish democracy, where we look at directly electing a mayor with real powers in the areas of transport, housing and planning. Where we see a lot of that power vested in county chief executives at the moment, the directly elected mayor would obviously take on some of those powers. I invite the Minister of State to make his opening statement.

I thank the committee for inviting me to discuss the general scheme of the local government (directly elected mayor executive functions in Limerick city & county) Bill, which was approved by Government on 20 April 2021. I am joined by Ms Mairead Ryan and Mr. Paris Beausang from the Department's franchise section and by Mr. Diarmuid O'Leary, Ms Áinle Ní Bhriain and Mr. Grant Couper from the Department's local government section. I also thank the committee for agreeing to pre-legislative scrutiny of this general scheme of the Bill so promptly.

I look forward to outlining the policy proposals, which will significantly reform how local government operates in both Limerick city and county. The general scheme sets out the major local government reform, providing for the establishment of an empowered mayor with democratic mandate from across the entire local authority area. The office of the directly elected mayor will make Limerick City and County very different to the other 30 local authorities, but could also serve as a model for future directly elected mayors with executive functions. It will have potentially a very positive effect and impact on the people of Limerick, but also could have policy implications across all of government and for the way central services are delivered to the citizen.

The general scheme takes account of the report of the implementation of the advisory group for the directly elected mayor in Limerick, published in November 2020 and provided to the committee at that stage. The group's report is tremendously ambitious for both Limerick and for the role of directly elected mayor. In the general scheme, the Government has agreed to include as many of the report's recommendations as possible at this stage. Further consideration and exploration of other recommendations will continue with other Departments in the weeks and months ahead. The general scheme provides for key pillars needed to create the office of the directly elected mayor with executive functions, including structures and governance, additional and enhanced powers, a mechanism to remove a mayor in limited circumstances and an electoral code to hold mayoral elections in Limerick.

The general scheme also includes provisions to allow for a plebiscite on directly elected mayors in other jurisdictions, as per the commitment in Programme for Government: Our Shared Future. I will outline the main points of these distinct pillars. Part two, office of directly elected mayor with executive functions, sets out the structures and governance provision for the establishment of the office of directly elected mayor with executive functions in Limerick, including the necessary governance structures underpinning that office. The mayor shall be the head of the local authority and an ex officio member of the council. Most of the existing executive functions that currently rest with the chief executive will become the responsibility of the mayor. Once the mayor's office is established, the roles of cathaoirleach, leas-chathaoirleach and chief executive will no longer exist in Limerick. These roles are replaced by new roles of directly elected mayor, príomh comhairleoir, and director general. The príomh comhairleoir will be elected from among the members and will act as speaker of the council. This is to ensure a separation of executive functions and reserved functions. The director general will replace the role of chief executive and will be responsible for certain executive functions which will not transfer to the mayor. These shall become specified functions. The director general will also have a statutory role in supporting the mayor in the administration of the local authority.

It is important to stress that the directly elected mayor will be accountable to the elected council as well as directly to the people of Limerick. Existing provisions relating to the oversight of the chief executive by the elected council are therefore mirrored and, indeed, strengthened in the general scheme to allow for the council's oversight of the mayor. Key provisions relating to prior information to elected councillors, direction that works not proceed, and a requirement that a particular thing be done will apply equally to the mayor in the performance of mayoral executive functions and to the director general in the performance of specified functions. There will be a formal structure to allow individual councillors to raise questions with the mayor, similar to the parliamentary question system operated in the Dáil, in addition to other formal structures which will provide for the council to ask the mayor to report on activities. Additional and enhanced powers are delivered by the creation of structures to enhance urban and rural development and the statutory right to contribute to and be consulted on all matters that impact on Limerick city and county.

The general scheme contains a specific chapter which provides for the creation of several new structures and mayoral functions. These include the establishment of a ministerial forum at national level to aid in the future development of the role of mayor in Limerick. The forum will oversee the smooth transition of executive responsibility to the mayor, examine new policy development and decisions at Government level and how they impact on Limerick, consider new functions and powers to be transferred to Limerick, and oversee implementation of the national planning framework in Limerick.

The general scheme provides for the establishment of a local structure in Limerick, led by the mayor, to support the delivery of the national planning framework and Project Ireland 2040 in the Limerick city region. The purpose of the Limerick Project Ireland 2040 delivery board is to ensure the co-ordination of all strategic spatial planning and investment necessary to achieve the delivery of Project Ireland 2040 city growth for the Limerick city region, in line with the objectives of the national planning framework, NPF, the national development plan, NDP, and the regional spatial and economic strategy, RSES. The delivery board will also monitor progress, including on development priorities for large-scale housing and regeneration, employment and enterprise and supporting infrastructure, amenities and investment in terms of transport, water services and climate action.

The mayor will have the power to convene a rural board to devise a programme of measures to support rural Limerick and to examine all aspects of rural life in Limerick. These measures will focus on co-ordinating across all government supports in this sphere, with a particular role in co-ordinating the various funding streams available. It is important to stress that the mayor will be mayor for all of Limerick, not just the city. Finally, and perhaps most significantly, the mayor shall have the statutory power to convene stakeholders locally on matters affecting Limerick, and to be consulted by Departments on the dimensions of national policy that affect the well-being of Limerick.

Provision for a detailed mechanism for the removal of the mayor, as part of a suite of accountability measures, is included in the general scheme. It is important to highlight that the removal of a democratically elected individual is a serious matter. Therefore, the bar for such action is high and should only be pursued after careful consideration. The process involves several stages in both initiating the action and successfully achieving an outcome, involving a majority of 75% in the council, an independent panel review, consideration by the Minister and a positive resolution in the Houses of the Oireachtas.

The general scheme also provides for the holding of mayoral elections, which will be conducted along similar lines to other elections. The mayor will be elected by the direct vote of the people and voting will be by secret ballot on the single transferable vote system. The system will mirror that used in presidential elections. An officer of Limerick City and County Council will be the returning officer at the election. All persons entitled to vote at local elections in the Limerick city and county area will have the right to vote at the mayoral election. The general scheme also contains measures which would assist with holding an electoral event safely, should Covid-19 restrictions be in place. These measures include conducting a poll over two days to facilitate social distancing and providing a postal vote for those on the special voters list should nursing homes and similar institutions be inaccessible.

The Programme for Government: Our Shared Future contains a commitment to the effect that plebiscites could be held in 2024 in any local authority that wishes to have a directly elected mayor. Demand for a plebiscite will be demonstrated at the request of the local authority or by way of a petition from 20% of registered voters. The general scheme provides for the holding of plebiscites on the issue in other jurisdictions in 2024, alongside the local elections.

As already stated, this general scheme represents a major reform of local government, one of the most significant since the foundation of the State. Having a directly elected mayor will enable the people of Limerick to have a greater say over how services and infrastructure are delivered and how Limerick develops. The new role as set out in this general scheme is a starting point and, in tandem with this legislative process, my officials are engaging with Departments across all of government to seek to identity more powers, including greater financial powers, to be assigned to Limerick over time. I am happy to work with the committee in this process and look forward to constructive discussion on the general scheme presented to it today.

I thank the Minister of State. It is only right to acknowledge the voters of Limerick who voted in favour of having a directly elected mayor. Voting took place in a number of other places in 2019 which came quite close to that result. The reason we are here is due to a democratic vote. The people of Limerick chose to pursue this. The election of the mayor will be democratic as well, so it is an important step in representation for the people of Limerick city and county. That should be emphasised.

I will now call on the members. Deputy McAuliffe of Fianna Fáil is first.

The Chairman is right to point out that usually we discuss Bills prepared by the Government but that today we are fulfilling a mandate from the people of Limerick. Whether we agree or disagree with the position of a directly elected mayor, it was a decision of the people of Limerick to opt for one and it is up to us now to work out the details. However, we should be cognisant of the fact that it was a tight margin and that we still have a way to go to persuade many people that this is a positive step forward.

I doubt that there will be time for questions and answers in the five minutes so I will put as many of my observations as possible to the Minister of State and perhaps we can engage with his officials after the meeting on amendments to the legislation. As a former member of a local authority and the corporate policy group and as a former mayor of my city, I hope I can provide some insights. However, I am keenly aware of the one quality I do not have, in that I am not from Limerick. I worked there for a short time. I believe the pre-legislative scrutiny should formally engage with the local authority members, with the corporate policy group as a corporate body and with the Deputies for Limerick. We can discuss that in private session.

I will deal with each head in the general scheme and focus on the heads in order. The first matter that generated my concern was head 12 which would appear to give the mayor a vote in the council on matters of oversight. If there is to be a separation of powers, I question whether the mayor should have a vote in the chamber on matters of oversight. The Minister of State might explain that to us in a note afterwards. In many of the discussions we end up almost making comparisons with American politics because we have never had a directly elected executive office in Ireland. We have to draw on all the issues relating to separation of powers, impeachment and all that language we are not familiar with here. Head 14 refers to a vacancy period of six months. If a vacancy occurs six months prior to an election, we would not fill the vacancy. I fear six months might be too short, yet a year would be far too long. Perhaps we can look at that.

Head 24 deals with the role of príomh comhairleoir. I would not like to think that any councillor is a principal councillor above others. We obviously have shied away from the term "deputy mayor", but, having been a mayor, I am aware that one often has to delegate because one cannot be in every place at once, particularly for international events. I am not sure the term "príomh comhairleoir" applies. Perhaps the role of deputy mayor might be more formalised. I do not believe the general scheme does that at present. The current cathaoirligh carry out a very valuable ceremonial role and, no doubt, they will continue to do that. Perhaps a system of deputising might be formalised.

Head 29 deals with the powers and functions. I am concerned that it gives the mayor the power to delegate some of the functions back to the director general or the county or city manager. The purpose of the proposed Bill is to ensure that the powers of an unelected person are brought into the remit of an elected person. I think that perhaps the chamber would have to agree with any powers being delegated back to the director general because, by stealth or by cover of political cuteness, there could be a mayor who delegates much of the controversial stuff to an unelected official. I would not like to see that.

Head 33 deals with the corporate policy group. The corporate policy group is a very difficult beast in Irish politics. It is a cabinet which includes the opposition. I worry whether that model would work with a directly elected mayor. It is not something that any other city has adopted. We should look at the corporate policy group and whether it is fit for function under a directly elected mayor system.

Head 34 deals with the existing corporate plan.

There should be an alignment between the corporate plan and the mayor's local government plan.

The review of the functions under head 35 is perhaps a little late at 2024. We should look at that.

The final section I will focus on is head 42, which formalises the power of the mayor to convene. This is one of the principal powers that I experienced. It is one of the soft powers and is very important.

I have other observations from head 45 onwards, but I realise that I have gone beyond my time. I will hand on to the next speaker.

I thank Deputy McAuliffe. The Minister of State has taken note of the observations.

The briefing note states that the mayor will have a vote on all matters before the council, except in matters of oversight. In that context, head 12(2) states: "The mayor shall exercise a vote in relation to all matters that come before the elected council, except where the vote is in relation to the council's oversight role in respect of the mayor." That is not in the actual briefing note. I apologise. It is in the general scheme.

I thank the Minister of State for the clarification. That is head 12.

I welcome the general scheme of the Bill and note that Sinn Féin has engaged with this process from day one. We were happy to make a submission. As everyone has said, this is the democratic will of the people of Limerick. It is very important and it is up to us to get it right. I am conscious that with the establishment of any new powers, we must be careful that we do not take any existing powers away from our elected councillors.

I have some questions for the Minister of State, which I will ask together, and hopefully we will have time to get through them. I am particularly interested in head 31. What is the relationship regarding the current local authority annual budget and the three-year capital plan? How will the mayor's programme of office work with that? I would appreciate the Minister of State explaining the process to me.

Head 40 relates to the rural Limerick board. Perhaps the Minister of State will talk us through the proposed appointments, in the context of the process and the tenders involved, and the relationship the board will have with the council.

On head 41, what role will the mayor have regarding the city development plan? Many of us previously served as councillors and we know that this is, essentially, a contract between those who are elected and the people they serve. Will the Minister of State please touch on some of those questions?

I thank Deputy Mitchell for her engagement with the process. I acknowledge that she has been constructive, as have other members of her party.

On the powers of councillors, I am very keen that they keep their reserved powers. This is why there is an essential tenet to robustly hold the mayor to account. This is going to be key in how this process works out on the ground. Councillors powers will remain unchanged.

The cathaoirleach of the council will step into the role as príomh comhairleoir, which is articulated in the heads of the general scheme. In essence, the mayor takes his duties outside the council chamber. That is key. He will represent Limerick nationally and internationally and will be a beacon for the county in the context of putting it on the international stage, which can only add significant value to the area.

The question on the budget is very interesting. I will explain how it came about. In the original proposal, a two thirds super-majority was required to reject a budget, but the implementation advisory group and all the various stakeholders and actors in Limerick got together and felt that in the spirit of the way Limerick works and engages, and given its history of good working relationships, it would be better to have just a simple majority for passing the budget. We decided that adopting that recommendation from the implementation advisory group was the way to proceed. I am sure that, going forward, that will be the case. It is important to note that the new democratically elected executive head - the new elected mayor - will have to put the programme for Limerick to the councillors and that its approval would require majority support. If we were to opt for a super-majority in this regard, it might create unnecessary tensions within the working relationship and the dynamic that exists between the parties in Limerick. This is a good start and we were happy to listen to all the stakeholders, who represented a really broad base of society. They included the students' union, the chamber of commerce and the directly elected councillors. We had a great base there.

At present, the capital budget per annum for Limerick is €217 million. It is not far shy of €500 million when revenue and capital are taken into consideration. We will be in negotiations with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform with a plan for the new mayor of Limerick. The implementation advisory group is very clear that the mayor needs to deliver on the mandate for Limerick. As we progress through the legislative process we will be engaging with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and with other stakeholders to try to get as many powers and as significant a budget as we can, to give them the best start there. We have a number of capital envelopes to which we expect the mayor's office will have access. These are set out by the implementation advisory group.

On head 40, the mayor is to be the mayor for Limerick county as well as for the city. This is why I referred to the matter in my opening contribution. We would expect that the measures to be derived from the rural development policy for the period 2021 to 2025 will be included in negotiations with the Department of Rural and Community Development and will link in with it so that the mayor will have strong ties in delivering for rural Limerick also. This is so important in the process.

Will the Minister of State comment on the development plan, which is under head 41?

I apologise that I had forgotten to comment on that, my writing is not as good as it used to be. It will be the responsibility of the new mayor to present the development plan to local authority members. People must visualise that the current chief executive has the executive function of presenting the plan to the councillors. The councillors adjudicate on it, go through the process of putting in amendments and deletions as they see fit and then it goes out to public consultation. It is now proposed that it will be the responsibility of the mayor to present that draft plan to the council, which will then adjudicate on it and work through a plan that reflects the ambition of the mayor and the national plan. We will have a strong, shared vision, but in the end the regional plans and the county development plans will have a strong link together. As already stated, the mayor will be head of the Project Ireland 2040 delivery board for Limerick. It will be the mayor's responsibility, working with the local authority, to bring that forward to the council.

I thank the Minister of State.

I thank the Minister of State for his presentation. The general scheme is very exciting. I went to college in Limerick for four years and had a great four years of education down there. As Deputy McAuliffe stated, I am conscious that, with the exception of Deputies Mitchell and O'Donoghue, none of us is from Limerick. I compliment everybody who has been involved in this process to date for the work they have done to progress the legislation to where it is at now. I was a supporter of the directly elected mayor proposition in my county of Waterford. It was only defeated by 719 votes. In Cork, the proposal was defeated by fewer than 1,000 votes. To be honest, I believe that these were missed opportunities for both counties. I certainly hope that it will be looked at again in the future.

We must get this right. Limerick is a case study for the entire country. It is essential that we get it right. If we get it right in this instance, there will be a willingness and a drive in other counties to move towards this model of governance, which gives people direct say in who leads their council.

I would appreciate it if the Minister of State could outline the role of the director general, who will be operating alongside the directly elected mayor. What specified functions that the chief executive has now - over and above those of the directly elected mayor - will the director general retain?

There is the speaker or chairperson role but there is no provision for someone to deputise for that person. If the speaker or chairperson is not available to chair meetings of the council, will there be a formal deputy who can stand in for him or her? It is important that this matter be clarified.

It would be appropriate for the committee to engage further with the elected members in Limerick and with the County and City Management Association, CCMA, as part of this process. As already stated, it is vital that we get this right. If the Minister of State could touch on the terms and conditions relating to the various roles, I would appreciate it because it is important to put those on record.

I thank the Senator for his constructive narrative throughout this process. It is very much

In terms of a deputy mayor, it is important to state that we did not create a position that would be directly below that of the mayor in terms of name, particularly in view of the fact that it is a body holding him to account. The councillors will hold him to account. I draw the Deputy's attention to the position of príomh comhairleoir and the fact that where he is not be available as a result of illness or whatever, the provisions of the principal Act, at Schedule 10(10)(3), relating to the chairing of council meetings would apply and the members would elect a temporary chair at that stage. The general scheme quite clearly sets out the provisions in the principal Act apply.

The Senator, quite rightly, mentioned the position of the director general. As he can imagine, the director general will take over specified functions. For example, he would be the accounting officer for the local authority and would manage its finances and be accountable in that regard. All HR and staffing matters will remain the responsibility of the director general. On the administration of schemes and grants, as the Deputy can imagine the specific adjudication in respect of particular schemes and grants is very important. The director general will also retain responsibility for adjudicating on specific planning applications and dealing with enforcement matters that are before the courts, legal proceedings, etc. In the normal course of events, that would be the case anyway because we do not want political involvement. The directly elected mayor will set the policy, the parameters, etc., and then the director general will be responsible for the administration side.

As mentioned before and as referenced in the data, the directly elected mayor will have a salary equivalent to that of a Minister of State, which is in the region of €137,000. The salary for the director general is being worked on at the moment with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform but we are saying it will be one point above the point on current scale that applies.

Is will one point above the point on the scale that applies to the current chief executive?

Yes, that is correct. I will get a figure for the Senator in a few moments. I do not have it written down.

That is fine. Not to labour the point in terms of a deputy, I appreciate what the Minister of State said regarding the title of deputy mayor. I do not suggest using that title but perhaps there could be a formalised procedure within the council so that matters would not just be dealt with on an ad hoc basis. If the speaker or príomh comhairleoir was unavailable, perhaps there could be a formal deputy who could stand in for the príomh comhairleoir.

To clarify, the salary for the director general is to increase from €162,000 to €171,000 but I would add the caveat that this has to be negotiated with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

The Senator's point about having a deputy speaker is well made. The implementation and advisory group, the people of Limerick and various actors in Limerick were very strong on the point that they think it will be sufficient to have just a príomh comhairleoir and that in the specific instance in which he is ill, the provisions of the principal Act will kick and a temporary chair or speaker will be appointed. Potentially, there will be four positions. There will be three new positions so we just want to be careful in terms of those. We can discuss the matter further as we go through the legislative process. I am sure that there will be more debate on it.

I will bow to the knowledge of the people of Limerick.

I want to correct what was said earlier by stating that Deputy Quinlivan and I are the two representatives from Limerick.

I am not in favour a directly elected mayor. I previously served as a county councillor and many of the issues I had at the time related to the fact that powers were being taken away from councillors. The Minister of State indicated that the council will retain its existing powers. The councillors of Limerick were directly elected by the people of Limerick. They need to get back the powers they had previously and they must be given further powers.

We are talking about €135,000 for the salary of the directly elected mayor, approximately €330,000 for the office staff of the mayor and between €30,000 and €35,000 for the mayor's driver. That amounts to an overall cost of roughly €500,000 for a directly elected mayor. I presume that the cost for a príomh comhairleoir will remain the same and that the overall amount will still be € 500,000. From the documentation that is available at the moment, I understand the Department will cover the cost relating to the mayor until the next local election and that it will then become part of the local authority's annual budget.

The other issue I have is that if something happens to the mayor, none of the relevant functions or powers can be transferred to either the príomh comhairleoir or the chief executive, who will in future be known as the director general. I ask the Minister of State to come back to me on those points.

To correct the Deputy, in an instance where, due to incapacity or something happening to the mayor, all the powers revert to the príomh comhairleoir. This will mean that he will have to exercise the duties and functions of that office until there is a replacement becomes available following an election that has to be held within six months. The latter will also depend on the electoral cycle. In that context, matters would be different if a national election were due within three months.

I am a strong advocate for increasing the number of reserved powers for local authority members. I have engaged with them up and down the ,through various fora such as the Local Authority Members Association, LAMA, and the Association of Irish Local Government, AILG, in that regard. It is extremely important that their powers will not be watered down. This Bill will not water down the reserved functions of local authority members.

I note the Deputy's comments on costs. I estimate that the overall cost will be in the region of €313,000 because some of the staff will come from within the local authority system. It is important that we do not lose sight of the value this will give to the citizens of Limerick. We are going to have someone who will be able to represent Limerick internationally, put it centre stage and reach into the heart of Government in terms of devolving powers back to Limerick. As we know, local authorities are responsible for more than 600 services that are directly aimed at citizens. This means that they comprise the closest arm of government to citizens. It is important, therefore, that we do not lose sight of the value of what we are trying to create for Limerick or of the different funding streams we hope to bring, through negotiation with various Departments, to Limerick. The mayor will have real power and a real opportunity to deliver on the mandate that he or she has been given by the people of Limerick city and county.

We should not lose sight of that in the discussion in terms of the value of this and what it would mean for County Limerick. A chief advocate has the power to mobilise stakeholders and put Limerick at the centre, both in terms of Government and on an international level.

I accept the democratic vote of the people of County Limerick, which was 52% to 48% in favour of having a directly elected mayor. My job, as a Deputy representing County Limerick, and that of Deputy Quinlivan is to represent the voters and the democratic vote they have cast and to scrutinise this matter to the best of our abilities.

(Interruptions).

Unfortunately, we may have lost the link to Deputy O'Donoghue. We were just at the five-minute mark but I can let Deputy O'Donoghue back in to finish his point later, if he so wishes. It is my slot now.

It is important to reiterate the point the Minister of State and Deputy O'Donoghue made. There is a cost applicable to this, but it also brings tremendous value. For somebody to be directly elected and accountable to the people who elected them is an important part of democracy and will bring great advantage to Limerick.

Head 36 gives rise to an important policy development in that there will be regular meetings involving the directly elected mayor and the Minister regarding the formation of the committee. That gives Limerick an advantage. I hope it will not disadvantage other local authorities, particularly those where public representatives often seek to have direct involvement with the Department and the Minister. What is proposed may also signal to other local authorities that the election of a directly elected mayor brings about a positive development in terms of direct engagement with the Minister. I ask the Minister of State to comment on that.

I also have a question on the finances. Will the directly elected mayor have any input into the setting of rates or into development contribution schemes? The Minister of State can come back to me on that if he wishes.

Deputy Mitchell touched on head 41 in the context of the specific role relating to the development plan process. The Minister of State indicated that the mayor would present the development plan to the elected members to modify or vote on it. We often see the role of the chief executive of a local authority, in terms of the planning staff that prepared the development plan and the response to amendments, as upholding and defending national planning policy on which elected representatives may seek to be as flexible as possible. In the presentation of the development plan, I presume the recommendations that come from the chief executive would be similarly prepared in order for the mayor to present them or to accept or not accept an amendment to the plan.

My final question is on special advisers. Head 22 states that the mayor would have a team of advisers. That is quite right because it is a highly responsible job. Will there be a requirement for those advisers to be qualified or competent in specific areas such as transport, planning, housing, engineering or project management? Given that the candidate will be elected by the people to represent them, it is important that his or her advisers will have that type of experience and ability to advise the mayor as best they can.

I thank the Chair for his input. I will go through his points one by one. The development contribution schedule and rates will be the responsibility of the mayor. It will be his job to liaise with the executive. Let us think about what is happening here. All the powers the current chief executive has will be transferred to the new democratically elected mayor, except for those core powers that relate to administering schemes and grants, enforcement and planning. We are talking about the basics when it comes to operating schemes, which would never be dealt with in the context of the political realm. The powers to which I refer will be transferred to the mayor and, obviously, he, in conjunction with the executive, will be putting forward the development plan for adjudication by the members of the council. Clearly, he would have his policy in respect of and stamp on that. When he is elected and puts forward his programme for Limerick to be voted on by the members, that will shape what county development plan he will have. The corporate plan will flow on from that. It is important to recognise that significant powers being conferred upon the mayor in that regard.

On what the Chair said in respect of head 36, it is important that the new mayor will have a strong link to the heart of Government, insofar as it affects County Limerick. I hope this will not disenfranchise other democratically elected local authority members throughout the country. In that context, provision is made for the holding of plebiscites within other local authority areas. As some of the committee members stated, we have to get this right because people will be observing how this process goes and assessing the value it will add for the people of Limerick city and county and what the mayor will be like in terms of fulfilling his or her duties.

We all have a major responsibility in respect of this matter and that is why I value the committee's work in terms of stress-testing many of these proposals. I look forward to its report in terms of what it can bring to the process in order to ensure that we get the best possible outcome for Limerick and ensure that this will be a success. It is important that engagement is being stitched into the process in the context of section 18 of the Local Government Act 2019. We will be keen to engage and assist the new mayor because he or she will need help when the process begins. This is the biggest reform in local government since the foundation of our State and it is exciting to be involved.

Will there be specific roles for special advisers or will their selection be up to the elected mayor?

Under the general scheme, the selection of a special adviser is currently up to the elected mayor. The other staff complement of the office will come from the local authority section but he will have his choice of special adviser. This is something we can consider if the committee has views on it. I would be careful, however, of pigeonholing the new mayor by insisting that the person to be appointed should or should not have specific qualifications. It is a strong role in terms of a democratically elected mayor and he or she will want to ensure huge dividends for Limerick city and county in the context of shaping the future.

I thank the Minister of State for attending. This is an exciting proposal for political reform which has the ability to transfer local government, not just in County Limerick and I hope this will be used as a template going forward. I hope I misunderstood the Minister of State when he referred earlier to the powers that "he" may exercise in the context of what we are discussing because it is just as likely that the directly elected mayor could be a woman. I would be careful of not using gendered language before we have an election.

I have a couple of questions on the responsibilities of the directly elected mayor that follow on from the Chairman's questions on special advisers and the chief executive. Is it anticipated that the powers which will be transferred to the mayor are the powers the chief executive has now regarding the council? What will the HR functions of a directly elected mayor be in dealing with some of the current chief executives and their functional areas of responsibility with regard to people reporting to them and being able to direct them?

Why do we think it will be so long until an election can take place? Could we be looking at one in the autumn, particularly in view of the fact that a by-election is due to be held in July?

We will probably be passing elements of the electoral reform Bill in order to hold that by-election in July. Does the Minister of State believe that we will potentially be able to do something similar regarding the holding of election for mayor in the autumn?

I am aware that other members have asked about devolved powers. When will the relevant powers be devolved? What is the timeline for the devolution powers following the election of a mayor?

I hope that on as many occasions as possible today I have used the phrase "he or she". I apologise. When talking about the position of mayor, my language may sometimes slip. I hope the work I am doing with our female councillors, giving them the human rights they deserve and have been denied for so long in terms of maternity leave, and my work with Women for Election, will demonstrate my commitment to our female members and female councillors. I really look forward to the next Dáil in which, hopefully, we will have a lot more women Members, more women candidates and more diversity due to local elections, and specifically because of the measures I have taken in recent months and proposed to take in the months ahead.

All the HR functions and the local authority staffing matters, with the exception of the special adviser, will rest with the director of services. It would not be a role for the mayor. That is for very good reason in the context of the specific staffing matters.

On the elections, my job is to try to guide the Bill though the legislative process. Up until last week, the Dáil has been sitting for only two days per week. It is gathering pace now. I acknowledge the Office of the Attorney General for giving us a drafter for this and for prioritising it. We are working as fast as we can. From talking with and listening to other members, I am keen to really get this right. I want to get a good balance between getting it right and not overly rushing it, but I also want to see it happening as soon as possible. This is so important. We do not want any undue delays but I want to get it right. We will really try to do that.

The Senator made a good point, and identified the kernel of the issue, in the context of additionality and what we can start with on day one. In other words, when the new mayor is in situ, when he or she will be able to say "These are my powers"? Of the 69 recommendations, 38 are in this general scheme. A further ten are partially addressed within the general scheme and we are working hard on the remainder. As this process is going on, we are engaging with other Departments to try, insofar as we can, to get additional powers. I highlight the fact that some powers will be difficult to get. One or two will be very challenging, for example, conferring specific rights in respect of national funding streams. We hope that we will see significant powers coming from some of the other Departments. One significant power relates to climate action and the infrastructure for cyclists and pedestrians. There are a lot of budgets to oversee in that regard. I would hope to have the lion's share of the recommendations in the report for the mayor. There is also a review mechanism built in whereby we can monitor how things are going and by means of which we can add in more powers later on. My hope and aim is to have as many as possible in situ on day one. I would value the committee members' assistance in doing that.

I thank the Minister of State for the comments he has made. I am very supportive of a directly elected mayor. Democratic accountability is a key function. The Minister of State and the other members are correct to say that it is very important to get this right. What happens will be watched by people in other parts of the State.

What is the thinking on the timing of holding a plebiscite in Dublin? The people of Dublin have not yet been given an opportunity to indicate whether they would like to have a directly elected mayor. It is important that they be given that opportunity to have their say and indicate their choice. Perhaps the Minister of State will comment on that.

In the context of getting public support for this and getting it done right, a good few people have mentioned that it was a very close vote. Has an analysis been carried out in respect of the reasons people had for voting against it? Has this fed into the drafting process? If not, does the Minister of State believe it would be worthwhile to carry out an analysis in that regard? Sometimes valuable things can be picked up from people who do not support proposals.

I appreciate the Deputy's comments and his support for the scheme. I look forward to working with him in delivering it.

On Dublin, following its decision on gender equality, the Citizens' Assembly is now taking a look at the four local authority areas of Dublin. This will be a significant body of work. The Department of the Taoiseach is leading on this. We will feed into the process through our Department. With the four local authorities, the national planning framework reaches out much further in the context of the metropolitan area. It is a huge and ambitious decision. We really value the work of the assembly. It has stood us in good stead in other approaches to issues that were outstanding, especially in a social context. We look forward to the assembly's report and to working with this committee in how we go forward from that. This will be very important.

As the Deputy has rightly stated, the people of Limerick voted in favour by a narrow margin. I am aware that Tim O'Connor and the implementation advisory group engaged in a great deal of discussion on the matter. When Covid struck, the group went to incredible lengths to carry out its consultation process online. There were more than 1,000 respondents. They had really strong engagement from the people of Limerick, on foot of which a number of recommendations were made. Public information is key. There were a number of elections on the day the plebiscite was held. From talking with people in Limerick, the view expressed to me was that it received very little attention. There was a meeting with the Limerick Oireachtas Members in the Custom House. I was feeding into that process in the context of advising about the narrow margin and what people were feeling. It is very important that before elections we have public information campaigns. Such a campaign could have been used to advise the people of Limerick of the gravity the question relating to a directly elected mayor. This individual will have to demonstrate his or her capacity to the electorate to manage a complex set of relationships in the context of the director general, the reserved functions of the council and the whole of Limerick city and county. It will be a unique undertaking. We will need a strong public information campaign. In response to the Deputy's query, I would say that information is key. With three plebiscites, including those Cork and Waterford, held on the same day, that was one of the key challenges. So many elections were on at the time. As a former councillor, the Deputy will be aware that local authority election campaigns tend to be frantic. European Union elections held on the same day as the local elections and the plebiscites in this instance, so there was too much information to absorb. We really must work on that.

I thank the Minister of State for the reply.

The Minister of State made a really important point. As someone who ran in the elections at that time, I am aware that one does tend to concentrate on one's own electoral success without being able to put the time into, for example, campaigns relating to the EU elections or other matters. Limerick has a fantastic opportunity to lead the way and set the example that other local authorities will look at to say that it is a good advancement in the way we run local government, especially in the context of accountability.

I congratulate the Minister of State and his team on all the work they have done in respect of this ground-breaking proposal for legislation that will have a lasting impact, not just in Limerick but also, possibly, in other cities too. The proposal for directly elected mayor of Limerick was voted on by the people of Limerick. As my colleague, Senator Cummins, stated, Limerick could become a pilot for the roll-out of this type of office in other cities. That is why it is so crucial that this is a success. Councillors are elected to represent their local areas and they reflect the democratic will of the people. The success of a directly elected mayor will be based on the collaboration and the relationship with those local councillors. This is why councillors being treated as the democratically elected representatives of their communities and ensuring that their experience is appreciated and their voice always heard and respected will be critical to the success of this project.

It is really important that councillors' powers, responsibilities and influence be protected in order to ensure local democracy continues to flourish; it is also really important to ensure local democracy remains an attractive proposition for people because without candidates or councillors we simply would not have local democracy. That is why the significant difference between the pay of the mayor and that of councillors is so noticeable. I welcome the rumours - for that is what they still are at this stage - that the remuneration and conditions of councillors are to be revised in line with the Moorhead report, which is fitting for the level of work that goes into the role of councillor. The mayor of Limerick will have a key strategic role when it comes to the big-ticket items like the national planning framework and Project Ireland 2040 in the Limerick City region. I, for one, am excited at the prospect of candidates outlining their vision for Limerick as we approach the inaugural mayoral election.

I take this opportunity to thank the Minister of State for the work he is doing to make council chambers across Ireland more diverse and inclusive. He has done a huge amount of work with Women for Election and with cross-party representatives of female councillors on issues like maternity leave. It is fantastic to see him taking such a strong leadership role on that issue, so well done on that.

I thank Deputy Higgins for her very kind comments. There is a huge amount of reform going on in the local authority space. I am very proud to work with a Department that is really to the forefront of delivering that change.

The Deputy referenced a number of items. One thing that really struck me looking around the various different local authorities is that it is key an authority absolutely reflects the society it is governing in diversity, gender and all those key areas. We are really working hard to deliver that. Aside from the Moorhead report, we also have many non-pay items we are working hard to improve, including, as the Deputy rightly mentioned, conditions in our council chambers. Obviously, maternity leave will be a key focus in that and we have our group of women councillors meeting. What they need is an option that will really work for them and deliver rather than just being told and not embracing this. That is why I was keen to meet all the councillors down in Limerick, which I have done. I have done a number of Zoom meetings and look forward to going down there soon and talking to the members, the cathaoirleach and all the various different actors down there because I, like the committee, really need to be informed to try to deliver the best possible start for a mayor. Deputy Higgins rightly referenced that this is going to be a pilot and Limerick will be judged on how it performs compared to our other 30 local authorities around the country and it is very important we do a good job on it. I am very happy to work with committee again on it and thank the Deputy for her positive comments.

I will start by thanking the Minister of State and the officials for the ongoing briefings they are giving us and the meetings we have been able to attend. I put on record my thanks to the people of Limerick who voted for a directly-elected mayor in 2019. Unfortunately people in Waterford and Cork did not do that so we have in Limerick an opportunity to get this right not just for Limerick but also so other local authorities will see the benefit of having a directly-elected mayor. That is really important.

In the short time I have available, I have a couple of questions for the Minister of State. He presented the heads of the Bill there but how close are we to having a final sign-off on the Bill itself? Does he have a timeframe he could outline to us of where he is hoping to get to with that? I have a few questions prompted by his contribution as well. He said it is important to stress the directly-elected mayor will be accountable to the council as well as the to the people of Limerick. What did he mean by that exactly? He might clarify that a bit more. He also mentioned the setting up of a board to support rural County Limerick, which is critically important. It is really important the people of Limerick, city and county, are taken into consideration. There is a sense in many of the rural areas that they were left behind when the amalgamation happened in 2014. I strongly recommend and support that proposal for a rural board or whatever the Minister of State is talking about putting in there. I welcome his comments earlier that he envisages a public campaign being put on prior to the election of the mayor because it is critically important. As we said, although the majority in favour of the proposal totalled over 3,400, the number was still quite narrow in the scheme of things. As I said, my colleagues Deputies Mitchell and Ó Broin have been very constructive on this. We believe it is a huge opportunity not just for Limerick but that we should let Limerick be the beacon and lead the rest of us.

To get back to my questions, how close are we to getting the full Bill and what timeline does the Minister of State envisage?

I absolutely appreciate the Deputy's ongoing role as we develop this process. First, on the question of where we are, we have our general scheme. As I said, I have been in close contact with the Office of the Attorney General trying to get priority in terms of a drafter. There should be a drafter available this month and we will keep in close contact with the office. However, the office did say - and this is always a risk - that there are a number of priority pieces of legislation, particularly in the housing space, that will be coming in and out. On the positive side, Dáil capacity has increased now that we are at three days a week and that will assist us. I would be hopeful that by the summer we will have a Bill ready. Obviously, it will then have to go through the legislative process in the Houses. I am very keen for the Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment, which the Deputy chairs, to feed into that process as well to try to improve that piece of legislation.

The Deputy also referenced that the propositions for mayors in Waterford and Cork did not get through but in a way there is a silver lining to that insofar as it gives us time to really focus on Limerick and get a product that is going to stand the test of durability. We want people in other counties to look at it and say it is adding huge value to the citizens of Limerick, the city and the county and that it is absolutely the way to go with devolving more powers to their local authorities. The members obviously have a key role in holding the mayor to account in the context of the programme for Limerick the mayor, when he is elected, will have to put forward for adjudication by the local authority. Every year he will have to produce an annual performance statement which will have various key performance indicators the local authority can use to hold the mayor to account. In my statement I referenced the structure being accountable to all the reserved members of the local authority by means of questions which is very important to ensure they are being informed of progress on the various different aspects. On keeping up a good relationship, the mayor will have a right to be heard at municipal district level and be present at the local authority main plenary meetings. That is all so important. As I said, for the budget, a simple majority is one of the key indicators the implementation advisory group brought forward. It feels that should be the case to keep the good working relationships with County Limerick. The powers of local authority members are not changing; they have a big role now in holding the mayor to account, as do the people of Limerick. I do not want to devalue that in any way. It is going to be a huge opportunity for the citizens of Limerick to elect a democratically-elected executive head of the county and city so hopefully we can all embrace that. I thank Deputy Quinlivan for his questions.

I thank the Minister of State. The people of Limerick will never give up an opportunity presented to them and we will do our best to make this work. For everybody in Limerick, whether they grew up where I did, in Ballynanty, or in Ballysteen out in the county, we will all benefit from a directly-elected mayor. As I said, the vote was close so it is important that we bring along those people who, for whatever reasons, did not vote for this and get them enthused about why a mayor will be really good for Limerick.

I have a quick question about additional plebiscites the Minister of State envisages and he might clarify what he was speaking about there. He talked about 20% of registered voters. I personally think that is very high. I do not want to be political about it here but the electoral register is not in the best shape. There are lots of people on it who are dead, have moved or emigrated so it could probably be higher, at 25% or 30%. That is quite a significant number of people to get involved before the election can even be had. We are lucky to get 50% turnout in local elections. Will the Minister of State consider reducing that or will significant work be done on the register to ensure it is accurate before we look at additional local authorities having plebiscites on mayors? I ask because I am sure we in Limerick will get this right and they will all want to copy us.

I thank the Deputy again for his remarks. In the first instance there can be a positive resolution by the local authority members.

If the local authority resolves to have its own democratically elected executive head, that is sufficient. Demand for a plebiscite can also be demonstrated by petition of 20% of registered voters within an authority's functional area.

I would point out that my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, is making swift progress with the electoral reform Bill. I expect that will clean up the electoral system. We have our own committee adjudicating and the oversight of an independent electoral commission. That will feed into a more transparent process for all. I acknowledge that a significant body of work has to be done in respect of our electoral register to achieve that. For the moment, the committee can make its own deliberations. A democratically elected executive head can be put in place by a positive resolution of the local authority or the petition of 20% of the registered voters in the local authority area. I ask the committee to consider that in tandem the work being done by my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan.

That is another item of legislation in respect of which we are quite far advanced in our pre-legislative scrutiny. We are looking at the compilation of the electoral register and also seeking to increase inclusivity in the voting system and to get the voter turnout numbers up. I accept the comments of Deputy Quinlivan in respect voter turnout in certain situations.

I thank the Minister of State for bringing the legislation before the committee. I also thank him and the Ministers for Housing, Local Government and Heritage and Public Expenditure and Reform because they have all been most responsive to my representations and those made to them by other Senators on behalf of local authority members. I am very encouraged to hear that the Moorhead report will finally be signed off by Cabinet today. I hope that is the case because it is long overdue. That is good news. It is an important signal to send to our local authority members. They are invaluable to their communities and to our democracy. They are on the coal face of our democratic process. They are the go-to people in their local communities, streets, villages and towns. Right throughout the pandemic they have been fronting Government response and local authority response. The efforts they have put in and the supports they have provided for their communities could never be really properly rewarded in a monetary sense. However, it is important that the Government recognises their contribution and values it. Signing off on and implementing the Moorhead report should go a long way to beginning to do that.

I welcome this pre-legislative scrutiny process. I am acutely aware that the vote in Limerick was very tight. At the time, I was most disappointed that a plebiscite was not held in Dublin. I spent a good number of years living in New York city. Over the period of a decade or so, I got to see upfront how impactful a directly elected mayor can be in a city of almost 10 million people, comprising five boroughs and with only 51 councillors. A directly elected mayor can have an enormous impact, both in supporting communities and the economy and championing the city and the county. I am really disposed to this concept, but I am also acutely aware that our local authority members' powers have been greatly eroded in recent times. If this is to be a success, not just for Limerick but also for our democracy and our country, it must be of incremental value to our democratic process. It is not enough for it just to amount to the creation of a new office and role. It must be demonstrated to the people of Limerick and to the rest of the country that there is an incremental value in it.

One of the concerns that has been expressed to me is that it is a precursor to the further erosion of local authority members' powers and that it will lead to a reduction in the number of local authority members in Limerick city and county. I would like the Minister of State to address that issue. The point was made to me that under the New York model, where there are five boroughs and approximately 8 million people, there are only 51 councillors and one mayor. In comparison, in Limerick city and county, with a population of in the region of 94,000, there are 41 councillors. That is a concern. As I said at the outset, the local authority members who are elected are the representatives of the people of Limerick city and county. They are the expression of the democratic will. I ask the Minister of State to address that point directly.

I have listened to the Minister of State and I believe he has very sincere intentions to take the potential of this legislation to enhance the democratic process to strengthen local democracy in Limerick and to create a model that can be replicated in other parts of the country. However, as a committee, we also need to engage directly with the currently elected local representatives of Limerick city and county in the context of our pre-legislative scrutiny process. We should hear from them and engage with them. It sounds to me that we have a bit of leeway in terms of the timeline. Therefore, I think that we, as a committee, need to engage directly with the elected members. We should invite them to participate in this process.

I thank the Senator. I acknowledge her work and her representations on the role of our local authority members in respect of to their pay and conditions specifically. I appreciate the engagement from the Senator and her colleagues in connection with the legislation.

The Senator mentioned the need for engagement with the council. We have done a good bit of that. I absolutely agree with her point. It would very interesting for the committee to hear the views of Tim O'Connor and the members of the implementation advisory group of which he is chairperson. To be fair to them, they have undertaken significant engagement with the citizens of Limerick in very exceptional circumstances throughout the pandemic. I acknowledge their work. They are very impressive. I found it striking that attendance at all the meetings was high. They were most engaged in the process. I had honour of addressing them on a number of occasions and it was most interesting indeed.

We do not want to reduce or dilute in any way the powers of our local authority members. We are not proposing to do that in any shape or form. I really value local government. It is the closest arm of government to the citizen and provides many services. We really want to strengthen and support it; we do not want to dilute it. That is why having a new role of a democratically elected executive head of a local authority will provide huge powers locally for the citizens of Limerick. That must add value. It is key that we are focused on that to ensure that the citizens of Limerick see value in this office and do not just regard it as an office. Anyone can provide an office in respect of the governance and structure. However, it is about the powers of that office and the mandate and means that go with it to ensure that it can deliver on the mandate that the people of Limerick city and county actually bring to it. That is most important. At this point, I would not see there being a reduction in the number of council members in Limerick.

The Senator mentioned the work our local authority members have done. They achieved so much through the pandemic. I recall, at the beginning of the pandemic in response to the Community Call, how quickly our 31 local authorities mobilised and supported citizens, some of whom were very vulnerable, to get key services out to them, including deliveries from shops, pharmacies, etc. I had the privilege of addressing the Dublin local authority and the team there. I could see how they were dealing with the underlying social problems that were growing through the pandemic. They had actors from Tusla and other organisations and social workers feeding into the process. It was great to see. A huge amount of respect has to go to our local authority members and what they achieved during that period.

I completely agree with the Minister of State's comments. We had representatives from the AILG and LAMA before us last week. Every member of the committee thanked local authority members and councillors for the way they stepped up over the past 15 months. The response to the Community Call was fantastic to see. It was acknowledged last week.

I note Senator Fitzpatrick's suggestion, and that of Deputy McAuliffe, that we engage directly with the representatives in Limerick. We will make a decision on that in private session. It is quite possible that we will engage again with AILG and LAMA on the matter. The suggestion is noted.

I thank the Minister of State for presenting to us the general scheme of the Bill, the purpose of which is to devolve power to the people, and for the work that has been done on it to date.

Devolved power is a policy for which I and the Green Party have continually campaigned. We believe it brings governance closer to the people. As previous speakers indicated, it was a pity that there will not be directly elected mayors in Waterford, Dublin or Cork at this time. However, the Limerick mayor will pave the way and show that this type of politics is good for communities. This is a process whereby the power is being moved away from central government and will be shared between the chief executive and his or her directors. From my experience as a councillor, I have seen how hard it is to propose and deliver a mayor's objectives in one year. Having a five-year term and the necessary staff will allow the mayor, whoever it may be, to manage and develop his or her objectives with time and resources. I fully welcome what is proposed in the general scheme.

I have one minor question. What is the main difference between the director general and the chief executive?

I thank the Deputy. I acknowledge his work in this area as well. I have had great engagement with the Minister for Transport, Deputy Eamon Ryan, and his office through this process and as the leaders were meeting to try to progress the heads of Bill through the Cabinet process. The Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, over in the Custom House has also been very helpful to me in going through this process so I acknowledge that.

There absolutely has to be a difference and the key one is obviously that the director general will focus on staffing. As already stated, his focus will be on delivering and administering schemes, dealing with applications for planning permission, enforcement matters, court orders and all staffing matters. Critically, the director general will also be the accounting officer for the local authority. Those are the key functions. That envelope will encapsulate the director general. All other functions will essentially transfer over to the democratically elected mayor. We are talking about putting together a programme for Limerick - like we do with a programme for Government over a five-year Dáil term - that will shape the future of the city and county over a five-year period. This will involve the presentation of a county development plan to the city and county council, how the county will be shaped through the planning process, which, as the Deputy knows, is the cornerstone of our development, linking that in with our national strategies and ensuring it is presented in a strong form in order to allow councillors to have a robust debate and adjudicate on it. Obviously, the presentation of a budget will be part of it as well. Again, all of these things are currently done by the chief executive. The newly elected mayor will present a budget to the local authority and, again, the members will have to adjudicate on it. The members will hold the directly elected mayor to account because his annual performance statement will be presented to them for adjudication.

It is very important to note that between rates, income-raising measures and all of that, the policy that shapes the county will be set out by mayor. There are huge powers involved. This is a major revision of local democracy, of that there is no doubt. I always imagine it this way: if one thinks of a director general, one is thinking of the key role of allocating a house to a vulnerable family, administering a grant for someone who has a disability or for an elderly person who needs better access or trying to approve funding for a rural town or village. Once the mayor sets out the parameters and the policy, it will be up to the director general to implement it . He will be the implementer of all those things and will adjudicate, under the parameters set by the mayor, which applicants will be successful, how an application for planning permission should go, etc. None of those matters should ever be the subject of political interference. That will be the director's role and he will fulfil it within the parameters of the guidelines set out to him by the mayor.

I thank the Minister of State.

During the six years for which I was a member of Limerick City and County Council, I had the pleasure of working with some very good councillors. What let things down was that we lost two young female councillors and one male councillor who found it impossible to continue in their roles, because of the amount of work involved, while trying to support themselves. Some of them had families and some not but they were very good councillors, exceptional in their work. The way things were going, it seemed that they could not support themselves or their families. It was like it was a retirement stop for an awful lot of people on the councils, with the pay and conditions they were on. Councillors do Trojan work. As the Minister of State said, the first person somebody will contact is the local representative, no matter what party they represent. The workload involved is absolutely huge and I hope the report will reflect that.

The general scheme states that the mayor will have the power to convene a rural board to devise a programme of measures to support rural Limerick and to examine all aspects of rural life. I hope that rural areas will not be left behind urban ones. We saw that recently with the Land Development Agency whereby all the investment was going into the cities rather than into rural areas.

I am from rural County Limerick. It is a fantastic place to live. If it got investment, it would be a fantastic place for other people to live too, for families to be reared in and for people who left our shores to work in other places to come home to. The bottom line in this is Limerick will have its own mayor. Will we have our own "Project Limerick 2040" or are we only implementing Project Ireland 2040? Will our mayor have functions such that we can actually come up with our own project Limerick 2040 and work it around the structures in the city and county? Every county is different and I would like to think the mayoral function that will be in County Limerick will represent County Limerick as a whole and not Ireland as a whole, especially where infrastructure and rural areas are concerned. I hope that would also be reflected in the city areas.

This is my final question. A person running for mayor must be over 18 years of age and a resident of the State and must get either 60 nominations from councillors or pay €1,000 to run. Is that correct?

I thank Deputy for his comments. Like him, I had the privilege of serving on my local authority in County Westmeath. I was humbled to, and had the privilege of, serving as cathaoirleach and mayor of my town of Mullingar. I could really acutely see the pressures of trying to raise a young family as well. It is so difficult to balance the work of being a councillor, and being the first point of contact for citizens in one's local authority area, with family life. This is in addition to trying to hold down employment, which many local authority members do because the remuneration is so low. It is very difficult to balance family life with politics. It is always going to be a huge challenge. I had a good look around and saw a lot of it in County Westmeath. We absolutely lost some star performers, young female councillors and male ones as well. I hated to see them leaving the system. They were not only from my party but from all parties and none. So much value is lost from the system. That is why, incrementally, my approach is to try to leave the best mark I can for the time I am in the Custom House to improve the conditions our local authority members operate in, improving the office they have, the supports they have and the mechanisms surrounding that. We will absolutely do our very best to deliver on that. Having a young family myself, I could see it. I remember when my first baby was born in December 2015, working on the local authority and then trying to run in a general election the following February. It is so hard on a young family and we really must work on that and think about maternity leave and all those supports we need in order to help young families be involved in the electoral process. It is the only way we will get council chambers to reflect society. The chambers that govern society must be diverse and must reflect that society.

Deputy O'Donoghue is right in what he said about candidate eligibility. It is double that of the two Dáil constituencies because they mirror Limerick city and county. The figures of €1,000 or 60 signatories he referenced are based on the two constituencies.

It can often be a source of contention, but Project Ireland 2040 will remain the overarching policy for the State. It is a planning framework for the whole country. It is up to Limerick to make its plan flow from that, to have a shared vision and to develop. If we say that there should be X number of housing units zoned in Limerick, it is up to the local authority, in the context of its functional area, to decide where in the county and city growth is needed, where its infrastructure should be built and whether it should follow its infrastructure to get best value for the State.

I am doing a large amount of work on rural planning. I know this is an area Deputy O'Donoghue is keenly and acutely aware of. I am codifying a successor to the sustainable rural housing guidelines from 2005. Those guidelines are outdated so we are working on new ones. Coming from a large rural constituency, I am acutely aware that rural housing occupies 25% of our outputs each year. People who live in rural areas should have and will have - I want to be very clear on that - the right to build in the communities they live in once it is done in a sustainable manner and all the basic metrics and normal safety requirements, such as site lengths and percolation, are met. I am very keen on that. It is up to each local authority to decide how that will be delivered in its plan. It is interesting to note that my county, Westmeath, has a very robust rural housing plan, which has passed through the new independent Office of the Planning Regulator. The development plan for the county has finally been approved.

There will have to be a threshold somewhere along the line and I think most people accept that. Figures are consistent in County Limerick. I took a deep dive into the figures there and discovered that 85% of all rural housing applications have been approved. I examined how many were withdrawn and found that the number was less than 3% each year from 2016 to 2019. We need context when framing the debate on planning. I want to ensure that I have a codified document which provides for sustainable rural planning under the national planning framework, which fleshes out social and economic objectives and which works for people. I am from a large rural constituency and, consistently, 25% of our outputs are from rural planning.

To cut to the chase, Project Ireland 2040 is the overarching document. Documents relating to Limerick will have to flow from that and share its vision. The Deputy can flesh out what he needs for his area.

I have one final comment, which I will make quickly. Limerick cannot be built without infrastructure. There have been promises made by successive Governments over the past 30-odd years in respect of infrastructure. The current Government is saying that it will invest in the infrastructure that is there but that it will not increase capacity. The Minister of State referred earlier to following the existing infrastructure. There is 27% of infrastructure left in Limerick and it is based mainly on the west side of the county. Investment in infrastructure is not done on a whole-of-county approach. As I said, they have been waiting 30 years for an expansion of infrastructure in the area. The only way we will get equality in our county is if the infrastructure commitments are fulfilled within the lifetime of this Government.

On the national development plan, we are renegotiating the capital envelope. As I go around the country and talk to people, I am finding that wastewater and water infrastructure are key stumbling blocks to development. We are trying our best in the context of the new capital envelope that is being negotiated. We all have to be honest. Irish Water was deprived of many of its funding streams. If that had not been the case, it could have stood on its own two feet and raised the money to allow it to deliver key infrastructure. Obviously, it cannot do that now. We rely on the State to step in with regard to capital plans. That is what has been agreed. We are trying to do that now, but I am acutely aware of the developments up and down the country that have been delayed because key infrastructure is not in place. A €100 million fund for towns and villages was announced. We have much more to do and I fully accept that.

I will now move to the third Fianna Fáil slot.

Deputy McAuliffe will take that if Deputy Flaherty is not here. I do not think he is.

I will come back to my observations on head 45. We have had a good discussion on the role of the director general. I can understand why staffing is not included within the mayor's remit, but we must look at introducing an element of control because much of the budget and strategic decisions in the council are based on staffing. While I do not expect the mayor to deal with individual one-on-one staffing matters, I think including some input into staffing with the director general should be considered.

On head 47 and the specified functions, I was disappointed to see waste management as one of the specified functions of the director general rather than the directly elected mayor. While I hope we will see other cities take this up, waste management is something we in Dublin would like to see under the control of the mayor rather than the county manager. It has been one of the big gripes between the two camps. Head 45 allows the director general to enter into contracts. My concern is that this could include the purchasing of land, subcontracting services and so on. Providing a level of oversight of that might make it more palatable.

Head 53 relates to the removal procedures. The Minister of State was very clear that the removal of a directly elected official is a serious matter. We have designed a process that creates a political football and that would essentially lead to the holding of impeachment hearings similar to those in the US being the ultimate outcome. We should avoid that. The problem with Irish politics is that it is very fractured. In that context, a party that may have only 10% support can be in government. It is possible that, regardless of who is in government, those in opposition could rally the support of 70% or 80% of all councillors in respect of a national issue that might not relate to the mayor at all. The process would then be referred to the Minister, who would appoint a panel of people. Ultimately, it is the Minister who makes the decision on removal from office. This means that those in opposition on the council could kick the mayor around in order to try to get the Minister to make a decision to remove the mayor. We need to be careful about this process and, in that context, I ask the Minister to review it.

Many directly elected models involve a recall option. This is a very serious option. Perhaps, however, removing a mayor should be considered the most serious option. Anyone proposing it should bear in mind what it means. I am worried that we are setting up a procedure which essentially allows the issue to be kicked around between national and local government. The mayor, regardless of which party he or she represents, will suffer as a result.

Head 56 relates to the plebiscites for all cities. The process for approving such plebiscites is not clear. It would be useful to provide clarity on that.

The remainder of the Bill deals largely with issues relating to the running of elections. With the electoral reform Bill and the electoral commission being established, would it be better to deal with some of those measures in overarching legislation rather than having different electoral procedures governed by different Acts put in place as decisions are made to directly elect mayors in other cities?

I will leave it to the Minister of State to consider those questions. This is a hugely ambitious and exciting opportunity to devolve powers away from unelected officials to people and to give councils more powers. The final version of the Bill must do all those things. I congratulate the Minister of State on the work he has done so far and wish him the best with it.

I thank Deputy McAuliffe for his detailed analysis. To be fair, he is putting work into it. Head 46(4) provides some detail. It states: "The mayor and the director general shall agree a programme of delivery of local authority services following the budget meeting.." It gives the mayor reach in terms of the staffing element. It is codified to a certain extent but in the context of HR matters, we will have to have clearer demarcation lines between the mayor, as the democratically elected executive head, and the executives, as is the case in employment legislation.

The Deputy made a valid point about waste management. We have had discussions about that. Limerick, as a region, was involved in discussions with the Department and was against handing over responsibility in that regard to the directly elected mayor.

We are going to be engaged in a lot of discussion. I would be the first to say that we had a lot of work to do in putting this Bill together and that there are a great deal of discussions still to be had. Such discussions with various other Departments will continue as we try to reach in and take as much devolved power for Limerick as possible. Devolved power is one aspect, another is the statutory consultee aspect. This refers to a requirement to consult the mayor regarding issues affecting County Limerick.

The Deputy has highlighted the issue of removal. We have had a lot of discussion with the Attorney General in connection with this. I can see how difficult the process is. The Deputy has made reference to the risks involved and to how negative connotations could very easily develop. A very high bar must be passed to remove an elected official in this country. The Deputy must accept that. It is a very serious thing. The Constitution underwrites the office of the President and the Supreme Court. That shows the gravity of the removal of any elected official from office. The Attorney General was concerned about the recall mechanism. He suggested the ideas of stated misbehaviour and seriously dysfunctional performance. Those are the two indicators. We have framed it as best we can. At the very outset, three quarters of the full complement of councillors, rather than three quarters of those councillors present, must act. There are very significant safety measures at each step. There is reference to the necessity of appointing a committee. When this committee adjudicates on the mayor's performance or on any allegations made against the mayor, the mayor will have a right to reply as part of the process. That is very important with regard to the direction of travel and the views the committee takes on the matter. It then goes back to the Houses of the Oireachtas.

The only point I would make in that respect is that the objective may not be to unseat the mayor but to cause as much distraction and dismay as possible during his term. That is the worry. While the Minister will ultimately have the power and may choose not to remove the person, we could be locked in a procedure which frustrates the work of both the mayor and the council. We need to be very careful about that process.

I absolutely agree. Strict deadlines are included in the legislation which would have to be adhered to when embarking upon the process. I hear the Deputy's concerns. There will be a certain element of risk involved in introducing any process to remove an elected individual which, as I have said, would be very serious. I hope it is a process on which we will never have to embark but, notwithstanding that, within the legislation, we have to prepare for all eventualities. We commit to working with the committee in trying to finalise that.

We will move to the Fine Gael slot. Does anyone wish to take it? No. I do not see any other members indicating so I will thank the Minister of State and his officials for their attendance. It has been really helpful and really interesting.

I did not see Deputy Quinlivan's hand up; I am sorry. I will give the Deputy a couple of minutes. Can he make his contribution in three or four minutes?

Yes, I will be very quick. I am sorry; I misunderstood how this committee works. I thought I was on the roster and that the Chairperson would come to me. I apologise for that. I have a comment for the Chairperson. I know it is not for me to tell him what to do but, when the committee has its private meeting, it might be useful to consider inviting people from Limerick before the committee. I refer not only to Deputies, Senators and councillors, but also to Limerick academics and community groups. As the Minister of State has said, many people contributed to the consultation carried out by Tim O'Connor, so it would be very useful to do that. As I said, what the committee does is not for me to decide but it would be quite useful to consider that when it goes into private session.

I will go back to a question I have raised with the Minister of State. I am still unclear as to what still needs to be done. I will not say the Bill is delayed because it represents a very large amount of work and, in fairness, the Minister of State and his officials have done a good job on it, but what additions are we waiting on? Where are we with that? Will the Minister of State give us a timeline as to when he anticipates the President signing the Bill? What is his hope or anticipation in that regard?

I thank Deputy Quinlivan for his comments. I am brave but I am not brave enough to say when the President will sign the Bill. Obviously, there is a very significant amount of work that needs to be done to get us to that juncture. Matters are still unpredictable. As I said at the start, the Dáil has been sitting only two days a week until recently. I spoke to the Attorney General about the Bill last week and he assured me that he will give the matter priority insofar as is possible. There is, however, legislation in respect of housing and other very important emergency legislation coming down the track. Much of this is already in the public discourse. I want to be careful when it comes to hanging my hat on a specific deadline.

I will say one or two things. In the first instance, we really want to get this right. We want to make sure the Bill we present to the Oireachtas is as complete as possible and that we ensure as much devolution of power as possible, reaching into all of those other Departments. Second, we want to get priority time in the Oireachtas. We have been assured that we will and I hope that will be the case. As I have said, there are risks to that but I hope that we will have something published for summertime. We will then be at the mercy of the Whip's office as to getting it through the Oireachtas. Speed is very important but it also very important to get it right. The risks of something going wrong are very high. We will work with the committee. The Cathaoirleach and the members have been very kind in prioritising this Bill. It is very important that I listen to the views of members of the committee, including members of all parties and Independent members, and take as many of them on board as possible. I am really committed to doing that. If anyone wants to have a meeting with me, I am very open to facilitating that.

With regard to the 69 recommendations, 38 are already included in the Bill. A few will be more difficult. I will not go through any of them at length. The recommendation regarding a recall provision is gone because the Attorney General has ruled it out. That is one of the 69 recommendations. In an earlier contribution, I made reference to the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund and getting into banking and the Department of Finance. There are risks attached to that. That is part of the bigger picture. It will take a while to deliver something as ambitious as that. The implementation advisory group report is very ambitious. I thank the group for that because that is what we want. We really want blue-sky thinking when talking about a new office and that is what the group has provided. We have to get it down to a deliverable product. That is another issue that will take a little time to work on.

With regard to An Garda Síochána, the Garda Commissioner has specific rights with regard to budgetary matters and policing. That is paramount. It would be very difficult to give a directly elected mayor a say with regard to the requirements of the policing budget. We can use joint policing committees and other mechanisms to get around that.

Those are the kinds of difficulties involved. There are only a small number that will present real difficulty. Some 38 of the 69 recommendations are before the committee now. Another ten are partially before it and we are working on a further 11 as we embark on the legislative process. With the consent of the Houses, we hope to bring in amendments on Committee Stage as negotiations with the various other Departments progress. At the end, only a handful of recommendations will not have been addressed. We have to be open and honest about this. A handful will have to await the bedding-in of the office of the mayor before we can see how they might potentially be brought in at a later stage. These will take additional work at Government level.

I thank the Minister of State. I agree with him that it is really important that we proceed on this at pace but that we take the time to make sure we get it right. As to Deputy Quinlivan's comments, I fully encourage Oireachtas Members from County Limerick to engage with the committee in this regard. In our next private session, we will come to an agreement as to how we are going to engage with local authority elected representatives for the county. It is quite possible that we will also engage with the Association of Irish Local Government and the Local Authority Members Association.

This is an incredibly exciting time for Limerick. Limerick is centrally positioned along that western economic corridor through Galway, Clare, Limerick and Cork on the western side of the country. We talk about balanced regional development. It is important that this does not become just a throwaway term. It is important that we get the balance right. In light of the current emphasis on strategic rail reviews and the potential for rail, Limerick's place in the rail infrastructure allows its connectivity to places all along that western corridor and to Waterford. There are two deepwater ports there, which will be central to the offshore renewable energy industry. There is a great future for Moneypoint. The Limerick and south Clare area has so much going for it.

The right candidate for the job of mayor of Limerick will have a huge amount of scope. There is massive potential for that individual to really make a difference for Limerick. It is an enticing prospect for a good candidate whose approach is policy driven. I look forward to seeing the election take place.

As the Minister of State will know, the committee has an extremely heavy legislative workload in the context of the important areas that we have been discussing today and for which a mayor will have responsibility. That includes housing, marine planning and electoral reform. The members of the committee are committed to the pre-legislative scrutiny process and we are trying to manage the legislative workload to which I refer. We will continue with our pre-legislative scrutiny of this important Bill for local democracy. I thank the Minister of State and his officials for attending. We look forward to continuing this process and to supplying out pre-legislative scrutiny report to the Minister of State as soon as we can.

The joint committee adjourned at 2.21 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 20 May 2021.
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