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Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage debate -
Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021

Traveller Accommodation: Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage

The purpose of today's meeting is to engage with the Minister of State, Deputy Peter Burke, the Irish Traveller Movement and the County and City Management Association on the programme for Traveller-specific accommodation in local authority areas across the State. Deputy Ó Cuív is not with us but will join us shortly.

We are joined by the Minister of State with responsibility for planning and local government, Deputy Peter Burke. I will ask him to make an opening statement. Members will then be invited to address their questions. For the sake of convenience, we have combined the membership of both committees into one and will use the running order that is normally applied in the housing committee, which I will read in a moment. I call on members to remember to confine their questions to five minutes at first. We will have a second round of questions when, if possible, members will be able to come in again.

Members attending remotely within the Leinster House complex are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentations they make to the committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege. It is my duty, as Chair, to ensure the privilege is not abused and, therefore, if members' statements are potentially defamatory to an identified person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative they comply with any such direction.

I remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of the place where the Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House, in order to participate in public meetings. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the house or any other official either by name or in such a way that would make them identifiable. The opening statements submitted to the committee will be published on the Oireachtas website after this meeting.

In a moment, I will ask the Minister of State to make his opening statement. For the clarity of members, I will read the speaking order by party, so that members of both committees are familiar with it. We will start with a five-minute slot for one speaker from Fianna Fáil, followed by Sinn Féin, Fine Gael, the Independent Group, the Green Party, the Labour Party, the Social Democrats, People Before Profit-Solidarity and Right to Change. We will thereafter commence a second round of questions. I invite the Minister of State to make an opening statement to the committee.

I wish members a good morning and thank them for the opportunity to address the joint committees on the matter of the Traveller expert group report and review of Traveller accommodation. I am joined by two officials from my Department, Mr. Paul Benson, principal officer, and Ms Ann Gill, assistant principal officer.

The Housing (Traveller Accommodation) Act 1998 provides that local authorities have statutory responsibility for the assessment of the accommodation needs of Travellers and the preparation, adoption and implementation of multi-annual Traveller accommodation programmes, TAPs, in their areas in order to meet the identified accommodation need. The Department's role is to ensure that there are adequate structures and supports in place to assist the local authorities and approved housing bodies in providing such accommodation, including a national framework of policy, legislation and funding. It is a matter for each local authority to set targets for the provision of Traveller accommodation, which they outline in their TAPs. These programmes provide a roadmap for local authority investment priorities over the plan period and form the basis for the allocation of funding from the Department for Traveller accommodation. Current TAPs run for the period 2019 to 2024 and will be up for mid-term reviews at the end of this year.

An annual count of Traveller households is carried out by local authorities in early November. The most recent audited estimate for 2020 indicates that there were approximately 10,809 Traveller households in the State, 78% of whom live in standard accommodation and 22% of whom live in Traveller-specific accommodation. The 78% in standard accommodation includes 45% in local authority or approved housing body tenancies, 18% in supported tenancies in the private rental sector, 9% in shared housing and 6% in accommodation provided by Travellers from their own resource. The 22% in Traveller-specific accommodation includes 8% within group housing schemes, 9% on authorised halting sites and 5% on unauthorised halting sites.

There is no doubt that delivery on Traveller-specific accommodation has been disappointing in recent years and this is reflected in the levels of funding that have been drawn down. I am pleased, however, to report that local authorities made full use of the €14.5 million available for Traveller-specific accommodation in 2020 and it is hoped this will be repeated with the €15.5 million budget for 2021.

It is important to note, however, that accommodation for Traveller households is provided through a wide range of housing options. The majority of Travellers live in standard housing, including local authority and approved housing bodies, AHB, housing, and housing assistance payment, HAP, and rental accommodation scheme, RAS, supported tenancies in the private sector. Funding for these housing supports are provided through the respective budget lines. The Traveller accommodation unit’s budget is provided solely for Traveller-specific accommodation, such as halting sites and group housing schemes. Accordingly, funding available for, and spent on, the provision of accommodation solutions for Travellers is much broader than the often reported spend under the Traveller-specific accommodation budget. The Department continues to work with all our stakeholders to improve the delivery and standard of all types of Traveller accommodation and this will continue.

The recent publication by the Ombudsman for Children's Office, OCO, has shone a spotlight on the unacceptable conditions on the halting site that was the subject of the ombudsman’s investigation. While the conditions on this site are not true of halting sites in general, as there are many examples of well designed, managed and maintained sites throughout the country, it is equally true to say they are not unique. This cannot be accepted. Prior to the publication of the ombudsman’s report, my Department embarked on a series of monthly meetings with the relevant local authority to discuss the options and supports required to deal with the challenges on this site. These meetings continue and we will support progress being made on the recommendations outlined within the OCO report.

To date, my Department has recouped funding of circa €700,000 to the relevant local authority to carry out essential maintenance works on the site. In April 2020, my Department approved funding of €5.4 million for the development of the adjoining site for Traveller-specific accommodation development. In June this year, I met with the chief executive and senior management of the local authority and asked them to outline their plans to address this issue and the issues raised within the report. I also met families on the site to hear all their views.

My Department has recently supported the employment of a mediator by the relevant local authority to establish baseline data on the site, its occupants and their accommodation requests. It is providing support to the local authority to complete a full health and safety audit of each bay on the site to identify what works are required and has confirmed to the local authority that funding will not be an obstacle to making progress. The Department continues to meet with the local authority on a monthly basis and receive progress reports.

The Traveller accommodation expert group was established by my Department in 2018 to review the Housing (Traveller Accommodation) Act 1998 and other legislation impacting on the provision and delivery of accommodation for Travellers. The expert group presented its report in July 2019. The report sets out an integrated set of recommendations intended to improve the effectiveness of the arrangements for providing accommodation for members of the Traveller community. These recommendations address four key themes: delivery reflecting need, planning, capacity and resources and governance.

Earlier this year I established a programme board to oversee implementation of recommendations from the expert group. The programme board includes two Traveller representatives, the County and City Management Association, CCMA, representatives and two representatives from my Department. It is chaired by the chair of the National Traveller Accommodation Consultative Committee, NTACC. I attend quarterly meetings of the programme board to hear updates on progress being made by the board and members from the committee. The programme board has put in place a programme of work for 2021, which covers 18 of the 32 recommendations. These are being worked on by officials in my Department with the help and support of various other stakeholders.

On funding allocation, to facilitate ease of access to funding, the Department ceased allocating specific budgets to individual local authorities in 2020. Instead, it is open to all local authorities to apply for, and draw down, funds at any time throughout the year and this is actively encouraged by the Department.

On CSO data, the Department has liaised with the CSO regarding the upcoming census to ensure all Travellers are facilitated and participate in census 2022.

Regulations are being implemented shortly to provide for a Traveller identifier on the social housing support application forms. This will allow for evidenced-based planning for Traveller accommodation and will also support the traveller accommodation programmes, TAPs.

On the management and maintenance of Traveller-specific accommodation, I approved a 50% increase in funding for the management and maintenance of halting sites and group housing schemes earlier this year. Research is being commissioned to consider the design and long-term maintenance of Traveller-specific accommodation. This will involve wider stakeholder engagement and consultation and, ultimately, result in updated guidance for local authorities and AHBs in the design of Traveller-specific accommodation.

As part of the work of the programme board the Department will explore the provision of an all-island approach to the provision of a network of transient sites across the island of Ireland and discussions in this regard have begun with the Northern Ireland Housing Executive.

On the reporting of the provision of new Traveller-specific accommodation, delivery of new Traveller-specific accommodation, such as permanent halting sites and group housing schemes, will be tracked under Housing for All and reported in progress reports against the 50,000 new-build social housing targets.

On the link between local authority development and Traveller accommodation plans, the Office of the Planning Regulator, OPR, has been working closely with my officials on this issue and has just completed and published a case study paper, Traveller Accommodation and the Local Authority Development Plan. This will help inform our work in this area.

Other recommendations currently being worked upon include: social housing assessment regulations, transfer policy from HAP-RAS to Traveller-specific accommodation, use of local authority emergency powers, the Part 8 planning consent process for local authority-own developments and trespass legislation.

On the independent Review of Local Authority Social Workers and Personnel Employed to Assist Travellers with their Accommodation Needs, to ensure that services relating to Traveller accommodation needs adapt and remain relevant, the Department commissioned research into the role of social workers and personnel employed by local authorities to assist Travellers with their accommodation needs. Since the mid-1960s, local authorities have employed social workers to support Travellers in meeting their accommodation needs. Since then, the nature and scale of the demands on local authority housing departments have changed and local authorities have taken on new housing responsibilities. The Department is liaising with the CCMA on the implementation of the recommendations contained within the report.

To ensure Traveller households have access to good quality caravan-trailer accommodation, the Department, following extensive consultation with stakeholders and approval from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, has rolled out a six-month pilot preferential caravan loan scheme in four local authority areas. Following a review of the pilot, which it is hoped will be successful, the intention would be to roll it out nationally during 2022, incorporating whatever changes are deemed necessary arising from the review. The scheme has the potential to significantly improve living conditions for Traveller families and will be fully supported by the Department.

Housing for All: a New Housing Plan for Ireland is the Government’s housing plan to 2030, which was launched earlier this month. It is a multi-annual, multi-billion euro plan that will improve Ireland’s housing system and deliver more homes of all types for people with different housing needs. Some €4 billion in capital is to be invested annually on social and affordable housing. This is the biggest such programme in the history of our State. The Housing for All plan specifically recognises the importance of addressing Traveller accommodation needs as a priority and commits to working with local authorities to improve the quality of housing for Traveller-specific accommodation, fund the ambition of local authority Traveller accommodation plans and grow the Traveller-specific accommodation pipeline.

I thank the Vice Chairman and members for their time. I am happy to take questions.

I thank the Minister of State. I note that Mr. Paul Benson, principal officer, and Ms Ann Gill, assistant principal officer, are in attendance. I call Senator Fitzpatrick.

I thank the Minister of State and his officials for attending today. I acknowledge the presence of Deputy Ó Cuív, who is Vice Chairman of the Joint Committee on Key Issues Affecting the Traveller Community. I also acknowledge and thank the stakeholders who have engaged with the Minister of State’s Department on issues affecting Traveller accommodation. We have discussed this issue in private meetings of this committee, so I am delighted that we can have this joint meeting of the two committees today with the Minister of State and his officials. The Minister of State’s statement acknowledged that there have been decades of under provision and that he and his officials, to their credit, are energetically trying to reverse and address that issue. I commend him for that.

In his statement, the Minister of State also acknowledged that responsibility lies with the local authorities. All local authorities have not performed equally. Certainly, some local authorities have significantly underperformed. While the board and the expert group have a remit to look at the legislation and its impact, I am concerned that there remains a lack of real-time monitoring and evaluation of the performance of the local authorities in this area. Will the Minister of State advise us regarding what actions he thinks can be taken, perhaps as part of the mid-term review, to improve the oversight and accountability in respect of each of the local authorities? The last tranche of funding allocated to the local authorities was used, but that funding was significantly reduced from what had been budgeted in this area in previous years.

I also ask the Minister of State to advise us if he intends to give an instruction to local authorities to take a specific action when developing their county development plans to identify sites for Traveller accommodation. I refer specifically to transient sites. It is important and I am wondering if he is considering taking that action. Turning to the caravan loans scheme, I welcome the Minister of State indicating that he is considering extending the scheme. When does he anticipate making that decision and to what extent does he see the scheme being extended?

I thank Senator Fitzpatrick for her questions. Regarding the expert report, and the 32 recommendations contained within it, one of the biggest challenges that I and the Department have faced is the absence of clear and salient data on the number of Traveller families in our country and the types of housing accommodation they require to meet their needs. That is why, through our expert report, we will shortly have a Traveller-specific identifier on our social housing application forms. In addition, we are also working with the Central Statistics Office, CSO, on the upcoming census to ensure that Travellers are a key component of the work that will be carried out in that regard and that we will as a result get better data to inform our decision-making within the Department. It has been a big challenge. The programme board I have established is monitoring the situation and working on this aspect. As I pointed out as well, the board has taken 18 of the 32 recommendations to address first and has included those in its work programme. That is a significant body of work and it will unlock many of the blockages in the system. The board has the full support of my Department to do that.

Turning to the budgetary measures, we have been increasing our budget year-on-year in recent years. It is not yet back to the scale of the years before the recession, but we are working on increasing it. As the Senator said, we spent all our money in this area last year. We are hoping to repeat that this year. I corresponded with all the local authority managers and chief executives to remind them of their responsibilities, and that of the local authorities, to the Traveller community in carrying out their duty as the chief executives of the local authorities. We are working hard to do that.

Moving on to my role in the county development plans, that is clearly set out in legislation. The Office of the Planning Regulator, OPR, is adjudicating and reviewing all the county development plans to ensure they conform with our Traveller accommodation programme and meet the needs of the travelling community. I note that the Planning Regulator in his recent report stated that around 94% of those plans have specific objectives contained within them. However, we still have a significant amount of work to do in that regard. The programme board will be working on reforming the Part 8 process concerning the emergency powers afforded to the chief executives of local authorities. Streamlining those powers would require primary legislation. The group is leading and implementing that work. It is recommending to me the work to be done on each of those 32 recommendations. The group has set out its programme of work and strong voices from the Traveller community are on that programme board. An increase in the number of Traveller voices on the board was sought and granted. We have, therefore, shown our energy in this regard and our commitment to work with the people involved to ensure that we get all those recommendations implemented.

To pick up on the Minister of State’s last two comments, I am not so sure about the commitment. I will explain why in a moment. Equally, I do not see any energy evident in tackling the issues we are dealing with. Those of us who have large Traveller-specific sites in our constituencies, as many of us here do, know that the conditions in which adults and children continue to live are a scandal. What bothers me regarding how we discuss this issue is that the Housing Agency and the Department commissioned a report that was completed and published by Professor Michelle Norris in 2017. It set out all the problems in this area. It then took us almost two years to get a working group together. The group produced a brilliant report, but that was in July 2019. The substantive recommendations in that report have not been implemented yet. I will return to that point in a second.

One of the most frustrating things is that throughout the last year and half I have submitted parliamentary questions to the Minister of State asking him to provide, in tabular form, information on the state of play with each of the 32 recommendations contained within the report. We have yet to get that information. The programme group is monitoring that work, but this committee should also have information, line by line, on where we are going with those recommendations.

Progress has certainly been made with some of the recommendations. The Minister of State mentioned them. I acknowledge that aspect. The key recommendations, however, those that will transform whether we really start to deliver good quality Traveller-specific accommodation, are concerned with changes to the legislation governing land transfers and Part 8 planning applications. That undertaking is not even in the legislative programme. I have yet to hear, therefore, an update from the Minister of State on those things he has responsibility for and that were central to the recommendations made by the expert group to enable us to tackle this issue head on. Will the Minister of State update us on when he intends to bring forward the legislation to give effect to those two key recommendations of the expert group's report?

Moving on to the second key element, that of the underspending, there was only full expenditure last year because a large volume of that spending went on dealing with the impacts of Covid-19. I welcome that, but it does not demonstrate that the historical refusal of our local authorities to spend their allocations has been dealt with. I suspect that the problem will return once we are on the other side of the Covid-19 pandemic. I do not accept that the change in the funding allocations was a good thing. I am convinced that it was done to conceal the blushes of the local authorities that requested an allocation in line with the Traveller accommodation programmes in their county development plans and then did not draw down the money. Nothing I have heard to date has convinced me otherwise.

The really problematic aspect, however, is that I have repeatedly asked through the parliamentary questions I have submitted how many Traveller-specific units of accommodation, that is new units, were delivered this year, last year and the year before. I have yet to get a clear answer from the Department and the Minister of State through those parliamentary questions. My second question now, therefore, is will he tell us how many Traveller-specific units of accommodation were added to the stock this year, last year and the year before.

The most regrettable thing in all this is that there is not a dedicated full-time official in the Minister of State’s Department driving this programme forward. It was one of the central requests made by the representatives of the expert group when they came in front of our committee. Why will the Minister of State not appoint a full-time dedicated senior official to drive the implementation of the report and its recommendations? Until that happens, we are going to be here with the same level of frustration that I suspect we will hear when representatives from the Irish Traveller Movement present to the committee later this afternoon.

I thank Deputy Ó Broin. I contend that the energy is there in this regard. I argued in my opening statement that the required actions are being taken. I was appointed to this role in July and I was given responsibility in November for the area of Traveller accommodation.

Subsequent to my appointment, I established a programme board to drive the reforms set out in the 32 recommendations. I have set the board in train reflecting the views of the Traveller community at every step of the way and I have its support in that regard. I will not dictate to the board which recommendation should be done first, second or third. It is up to it to recommend to me the specific changes it requires and its priorities. This is done directly with Traveller groups in response to their demands.

The budget has been fully used in my first year and I expect the same to happen this year. I have been working morning, noon and night trying to ensure local authorities get the message loud and clear that we are absolutely committed to delivering on this budget. We want it all spent. Any objective individual looking in or questioning my energy and work in this brief can see we have increased by 50% the amount of funding available for the maintenance of bays and areas. We have increased by up to 75% the funding of caretakers for sites and we have also set up the programme board. We will have data on which the Deputy will be able to judge my performance when we have the Traveller identifier in place through the social housing application forms. We will be able to assess the need and specific type of Traveller accommodation required in the State.

The Minister of State's time is up. We must proceed to the next speaker.

Just for the record-----

I am sorry Deputy Ó Broin. To be fair to the Minister of State, I cut him short so it would not be fair to allow you to come back in.

I ask the Minister of State to revert to us at a later stage with answers to my specific questions. I would appreciate it.

I will give the Minister of State some of my time to finish what he was saying.

I thank the Senator very much. We are committed to implementing each of the recommendations and the NTACC is responding to me on each of the them. I attend every second meeting of the committee, which is driving the reforms. It has held about five meetings already this year. Its independent chair has a strong track record in this area. We met representatives of the Ombudsman for Children's Office. I travelled to the site in Cork and I was in and out of every bay and trailer. I am working hard to try to resolve this issue with the community there and I am gaining their trust, which is important.

I would appreciate if we all tried to work together, including the committee, and be positive in assisting me in trying to resolve the huge issues we have. No one is trying to hide this. That is why I am making this role more transparent. I will be able to have very clear data by which Deputy Ó Broin and other members of the committee can judge my performance. There will no ambiguity. That is so important. As I said, that is the case with the budget this year and the other initiatives we have taken. I am absolutely committed to this role. I have not yet been in it a year, as far as my responsibility is concerned. I will not have anyone question my energy and commitment because those are there in abundance. I am only one person but I can do my very best on it.

I thank the Minister of State. My focus, coming from my particular area, is on the effect of this on children. Some of the children living on these sites will talk about walking to school, seeing rats and being concerned that rats are running up and down the walls of trailers. It is harrowing to read in the No End in Site report about children living in those conditions. I urge that its recommendations be implemented and we have some sort of oversight. We have seen issues with other sites around the country and I know from representations I made, with my Seanad colleague, Senator Flynn, that the Minister of State intervened and stepped up when he was asked to do so. Using that experience, how can he reassure Traveller groups and the committee that the experiences of children on the site that was the subject of the report are not replicated across the country?

The Senator can look at the trajectory of increasing funds in budgets in recent years. In budget 2022, we have a capital budget of approximately €18 million, whereas in 2020 we had €14.5 million. That is borne out by the commitment from me and from the Government as a whole to responding to the challenges in this area, and we are committed to doing that.

The Office of the Planning Regulator is doing a review of all the country development plans. The first case study was published. It is about trying to ensure all local authorities are meeting the objectives of the Government, as contained in this.

The caravan loan scheme will be a key tool for people who wish to avail of a good quality caravan or trailer at a preferential rate. They will be able to draw down up to €30,000. Four local authorities are piloting this project which I hope to roll out nationally next year. Again, that is a commitment by the Government to providing the type of accommodation Travellers want as part of their ask through the expert group and their requests therein. This shows that we are following through on our commitment. I want to roll that scheme out nationally.

I have always operated an open-door policy for any of the Traveller representative groups, from the local authorities to the Ombudsman for Children's Office and the rights commissioner. If people have pressure points they want me to resolve or something they feel is not being given an adequate amount of time, I am happy to push as hard as I can and drive reform in this area.

I fully appreciate the frustration people have. I have two young children and the last thing I want to see is young children having to contend with challenges like walking through muck and dirt and living in substandard accommodation. I am certain no member of this committee wants that either, so we are all trying to achieve a common objective here. That is reflected in the increase in the budget and the way I am trying to respond to the challenges in this area.

On the report to which the Senator referred, I have leaned on the local authority in question. I went down there and pushed as hard as I could to get these matters resolved.

I welcome the Minister of State. I wish him well in what is a very challenging job indeed. In his statement, he referred to Housing for All. It is interesting that the Irish Traveller Movement raised this as one of its priority issues in a submission to us. It states:

... Housing for All plan commits to prioritising the implementation of the Expert Review recommendations, however there are no enumerated targets included for Traveller accommodation in the plan and there are no timelines attached for the implementation of the 32 recommendations.

These are not disconnected issues; they are linked. It is important to provide targets, timelines and sufficient resourcing for each local authority to ensure what is promised is delivered on and the people who are responsible are ultimately held accountable for specific Traveller accommodation. We must ensure these successes and targets are measurable. That is the big challenge and task. The Irish Traveller Movement has asked the committee to ensure these targets, timelines and sufficient resources are in place and clearly outlined so we can see how this implementation advisory group's review recommendations are implemented. That will be important.

My only ask today is that the Minister of State establish a national Traveller accommodation authority to independently monitor and oversee the planning and delivery of the Traveller-specific accommodation. I ask that he commit to establish a national Traveller monitoring group that would oversee the delivery of Traveller accommodation. Local authorities have run into difficulties and have simply not delivered. We must move on.

I will address two other issues the Minister of State also raised. The Office of the Planning Regulator produced a case study paper, CSP03, entitled Traveller Accommodation and the Local Authority Development Plan.

The Minister of State mentioned it a moment ago. It is an excellent document - an excellent piece of work and really important. I refer to the pilot caravan loan scheme. I was a councillor 20-odd years ago and we were talking about pilot caravan loan schemes then. There have been a number of such pilot schemes. What have we learned from them all? I am somewhat surprised that the CCMA, through four local authorities, is carrying out another pilot. I do not know whether it has looked at the past and learnt from the mistakes that were made such that we can move forward. I am somewhat shocked and surprised that this is now being piloted all over again. There is nothing new in that. If that is the best that people here can do, it is very disappointing.

One cannot but be alarmed by what the Ombudsman for Children talks about and his serious concerns. Children are at risk. I use the word "risk" in a very broad sense. The conditions are squalor, rat infestation, no sewerage and no running fresh water on certain sites where we have our children. This is in a country that talks about cherishing the children of the nation equally. That is not happening. The Minister of State and I know the problems. This is nothing personal. I believe he is up to this and committed to doing something about it. I thank him again for coming before the committee. My final ask is the establishment of a national Traveller accommodation authority to monitor and oversee independently the planning and delivery of Traveller-specific accommodation. That is what the Traveller community is looking for and we should be able to deliver on it.

I thank the Senator for his contribution, which I appreciate is a very genuine one, on the challenges we face in this area. The programme board was established towards the end of March, so we are talking about a six-month period. I have told the board I would like to see timelines in respect of each of the actions it has taken off for their first round of implementation, which is about 56% of all the recommendations. In the first instance, my view was that if I were to set up an independent committee with an independent chair and a number of very eminent people within the Traveller community to drive forward this programme of work, I would not want to dictate to them how to do their business. I will get an update on each of the recommendations. I would have no issue circulating that to the committee and its members for their perusal in order that they might see the work that is ongoing and the progress that is being made. I am very clear when I attend meetings with the board about any support it needs or blockages it encounters as it goes through each of the recommendations.

The report of the Ombudsman for Children is very disturbing. Senator Boyhan is absolutely right about that when he talks about cherishing all children equally. That is why we have had a huge amount of engagement with the particular local authority. We have had monthly meetings. I have been down there, been on site, spoken to all those families and asked them what their particular needs are. One of the biggest frustrations I have had since entering this role is the lack of data. There are 10,800-odd Traveller families. Approximately 80% of them are in standard accommodation, with different funding streams from the State underwriting their tenancies. Then there is a smaller proportion, potentially less than 5%, whose needs are the most acute, with many living on unauthorised sites. We have commissioned 250 audits in 2021 to try to upgrade the conditions in which they are living and ensure that this provides a better quality of life for them. I accept that it has been talked about over a number of years, but I will specifically raise Senator Boyhan's point about the agency with the programme board. It is responding specifically to the 32 recommendations contained in the expert group review, and the energy is focused on resolving those blockages. In turn, our hope is that we will see more and better quality accommodation for our Traveller community.

Senator Moynihan is due to speak but she is in the Chamber. I will move to the Green Party slot and hold the Labour Party slot. Senator Pauline O'Reilly and Deputy Duffy are present. They might indicate who will take the slot.

Senator O'Reilly will take it.

I thank the Minister of State for attending. He is in a difficult position, having been in post for one year, and I think everybody recognises that. However, it is the job of these joint committees - I am a member of the Joint Committee on Key Issues affecting the Traveller Community - to point out what the issues are on behalf of the Traveller community, members of which would say something similar if they were here. It is important to note that members of that committee have undergone training on the cultural aspects, which is important. It is unfortunate that Senator Flynn is on maternity leave. This points to one of the issues I was going to raise - I have raised it previously at the Joint Committee on Key Issues affecting the Traveller Community - that is, a query as to how many Travellers are in the Department. The Joint Committee on Key Issues affecting the Traveller Community compiled a report on employment in the Traveller community, and this was one of the issues that came to light, not specifically in respect of the Minister of State's Department but just as to what we can do. This is not pointing at one Department but, because the Minister of State is here, I will highlight that we need to do better in the public sector in ensuring, first, that that kind of discrimination is not there and that we are doing something proactive in order to make sure we have different groupings represented because people need to be in the room when the decisions are being made.

My second point is about the AHBs. We had Cena before us last week, which I think most committee members would feel was very impressive in being an AHB specifically for the Traveller community, backed by the Traveller community. I would love to know if there is funding going into that Traveller-specific role AHBs can play. This has been raised numerous times here. We cannot just turn our backs on the kinds of lives children are leading. It is not just a matter of the squalor in which many are living but also the fact that only 8% of Travellers finish school, with 1% in third level. What the report of the Ombudsman for Children has shown is that the type of accommodation in which children are living is impacting that and their future prospects. We have to get this right. I believe the Minister of State wants to get it right. I believe that all the things in Housing for All show that that is a reality. However, we need to be open to all the questioning and to be transparent along the way in order to continue that level of trust, to rebuild it or even just to start it. Having come from Galway City Council, I can tell the Minister of State it just has not been there. The council has drawn down funding for the first time in a long time - I think all local authorities drew it down last year - but it is nowhere near enough.

I welcome absolutely what the Senator says. As stated earlier, I would welcome the improvement of data in order that the committee and its members can critically evaluate my work. That is very important. We need to be in possession of improved data.

As for Senator O'Reilly's engagement with the Traveller groups and members of the Traveller community, nothing I have seen has shocked me because I have been engaging with them. I have been on their sites and in their homes, I have gone through all the issues with them, I have spoken to members of the Traveller representative bodies and I have made it crystal clear that my door is open if there are any issues surrounding the implementation of the expert group recommendations or any blockages. I have also had good, thorough engagement in respect of the issues that are there so I am not shocked by anything in that regard. I assure the Senator that I am on the ground with the issues we are trying to resolve.

The Senator mentioned in her contribution one very important thing, namely recruitment of individuals through the Public Appointments Service, ensuring diversity and balance in respect of people from the Traveller community. This shows the wider stakeholder involvement that is required across the Government to resolve the blockages in respect of this issue, not just in my Department.

I will raise that with the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform. I fully understand the need for that. It is slightly beyond my remit but I would support the Senator on her call because it can only add value. The National Traveller Accommodation Consultative Committee and the Traveller groups are front and centre of the work I am trying to do here. There will be frustrations, I fully accept that, but we are trying our best to resolve the matter. We are only two or three days past the sixth anniversary of the Carrickmines tragedy which shook this nation. I do not want to see another tragedy like that in the State in my time or after. It reflects the poverty in and vulnerability of communities living in our State and we have to move might and main to resolve that.

As there is no speaker for the Social Democrat slot or People Before Profit-Solidarity, we will move to Right to Change, Deputy Collins.

Many of the areas have already been covered. I was listening closely and I know things have improved. I have linked in with the community at St. Margaret's Traveller site in Ballymun where the community is caught in behind high walls and have super depots being built around them while the conditions they live in remain absolutely dire. Only for the community on site, it would be a lot worse because they are very proactive in trying to deal with the issues. They were seeking to have mobile homes replaced because the ones they have are so old. They are still waiting for that. In the meantime, they were hoping that small cottage-type homes would be built in the community. Over the years, there has been a breakdown in trust between the council and all the halting sites. Trust needs to be beefed up and the Traveller community has to see the powers-that-be moving very seriously on these issues now. Overcrowding on those sites is still a big issue and the conditions with sanitary conditions and access to water. I would hope that the council, the Department and the Government really respond to the needs of the Traveller community, particularly when they are very positive about wanting to work with the local authorities after all the years of their needs being left in abeyance. There has to be urgency around the replacement of those mobile homes - all of them - and a plan for the building of homes on the site for the community. There is the same situation in Labre Park where Cena had to move in to try to negotiate to get the build there. I know things are in place now, and at a meeting of the Joint Committee on Key Issues affecting the Travelling Community, one speaker said that it took a long time to get to the bad state that we are in and it will take a while to get us out of that, but when the Traveller communities link in with the authorities, they should be responded to very positively. There should be no problem with money for replacing mobile homes. I cannot see what the delay could be on those. I am sure that is also happening on other sites, although I have not been in contact with them.

I thank Deputy Collins for her questions and acknowledge the work that she is doing on the ground with the Traveller community. On Labre Park, we engaged directly with the community as did the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien. One of the first things I did when I got responsibility for Traveller accommodation in November was write to Senator Eileen Flynn to try to forge relationships and get a greater understanding from a policy maker's side of what we need to do to respond to these challenges. Deputy Collins mentioned the positivity of the Traveller community. As I have gone around the country and met members of the Traveller community, they have been hugely positive, full of ideas on how to resolve and rebuild the trust within State institutions which we so badly need. I mentioned Carrickmines and there is also the Ombudsman for Children's Office, OCO, report. These are conditions that no State institution should stand over and we really need to work so hard to address them. I want us to be judged on our actions.

The pilot caravan loan scheme has had 47 applications in south Dublin. I think the number is slightly lower for Dublin city where there have been 15 or 16 applications. It is also pretty high in Cork. The funding will not be a barrier for the scheme. There are some issues that we are trying to resolve around insurance cost through the pilot and we hope to be able to launch a more robust scheme next year. That is reflected in the increase in the budget. There is also the remedial works. We carried out 250 audits around the State. We increased funding for the upkeep of Traveller bays by 50%. There was 75% for the funding for the caretaker roles. These demonstrate our commitment to trying to resolve this issue. I have leaned on the chief executives around the country and as recently as the past two weeks wrote another very strong letter on their responsibility to spend all the money that is there and reminding them that there is money there in the Department that we want to see spent. We do not want any carryover. It will really frustrate me if there is a carryover under this heading because we want to get all the money spent as we continue to increase the capital budget which is €18 million in 2022. The commitment is there but we need everyone working together. I really value the relationship that I have with Traveller representatives. I have been in many of their homes and their hearts are in the right place. It encourages me to work much harder to try to resolve the issues that are in the 32-recommendation report from the expert panel.

I thank the Minister of State. His passion and dedication to this area really shines and I know he will make a huge difference. It is needed. It is really positive that the €14.5 million budget was fully used by local authorities last year. It is very encouraging that we are on track to do the same again this year. I am really pleased that the expert review group is making such progress on so many of its recommendations. I commend the Minister of State on the pilot caravan loan scheme and it being rolled-out further next year.

The Minister of State mentioned a couple of times that data remains an issue. What plans are in place to resolve that? The Traveller identifier is in a similar area. Can the Minister of State update the committee on what role that will play? Is budget required for that?

The report sought a 50% increase in the funding allocation for the management and maintenance of Traveller-specific accommodation. What is likely to happen there? We all want to make sure these sites are as safe and homely as possible.

I know there have been many circulars on this issue but has the Minister of State written to local authorities outside of those and if so, is there anything he can share with the committee arising from that?

One of my frustrations has been the lack of data. That is why one recommendation in the report was to have a specific Traveller identifier contained within social housing application forms. That would give us a better handle on what the requirements are from the Traveller community.

A number of reports carried out, one of which was independently evaluated in County Mayo, suggest that not all members of the Traveller community want specific Traveller accommodation. Many want standard social housing. In the first instance, we have not captured data that specifically identifies the State's resources going into standard housing accommodation. We do not have a specific resource that indicates the demand coming from the Traveller community. In the communities I visited and the halting sites I stood in, many Travellers told me that they want standard social housing provision. We need to determine what the exact requirement is. A number of these schemes are being pushed aggressively. In regard to circulars, in the last six months, I have twice written to the chief executives of the 31 local authorities - as recently as two weeks ago - reminding them of their responsibility to spend the capital budget to make conditions better for all vulnerable members of the Travelling community throughout the State. I have been as robust as possible within the remit of my powers in doing that.

The second part of the data will be obtained by the Central Statistics Office, CSO, in the upcoming census of next April. We need to see the Traveller community reflected in that data compilation. One can then judge the State's response to Traveller accommodation needs, and how it is providing services, against the demands of that community. We want to put the community first and then critically evaluate where we are in that regard. We are working hard with the CSO to ensure that, through the local authority network, all Traveller families are counted and that the data will indicate what the exact requirements are for particular families living in Traveller accommodation sites throughout this State. We are working hard to deliver that.

On the remediation works, I alluded to the audit of 250 sites for Covid preparedness that highlighted the need for a number of remedial schemes and works to be carried out during Covid to ensure safety in many of the Traveller accommodation halting sites. We were to the forefront in doing that work. The HSE led a process, throughout Covid, in identifying risks in the halting site network and we responded to requests for funding to make Traveller families as safe as possible through the pandemic. I acknowledge that members of the Traveller community responded well to that and have gained trust in us as we show them that we mean business in solving the problems encountered.

I know the local authority network comes in for a lot of criticism, but many of them are doing their best. However, we must acknowledge they need to do more. I am being honest and am to the forefront in my engagement with them to ensure that the greatest pressure is applied to where the need is most acute. Under the Act, they have responsibility in this area. I note the issue of extra staffing resources in the Custom House was raised. We must consider what our responsibilities in the Custom House are and what the larger stakeholder groups, throughout Government, responsibilities are. Our job is to ensure that the resources are put where they are most needed to resolved many of the blockages in this area.

I wish the Minister of State the best of luck. It is obvious that a lot of work has been done in this area. The Minister of State seems to be passionate about it and I hope he will implement what he has outlined. One of the sites in my constituency that the Minister of State visited earlier this year is Spring Lane. Some 30 years ago, they moved the site from the bottom of Spring Lane to the top of Spring Lane. The situation of this site sums up the way the Traveller community has been treated by successive Governments and local authorities in regard to housing. They put in ten bays where there were 16 families. From the outset, 30 years ago, there were six bays overcrowded and now there are more than 30 families on the site in horrendous conditions, as was evident from a recent report of the ombudsman, in regard to what the children on the site have to deal with. There were some good people in Cork City Council trying to manage and maintain this site. One of the biggest issues faced was resources. The management, maintenance and caretaking of these sites was not resourced. While I acknowledge what the Minister of State has outlined, I ask that he provide further information about increased resources in that regard. We are not managing the sites properly. The fact that this site went from ten to more than 34 bays, with virtually no facilitates, goes to the heart of the problem. Of the 250 sites around the State, how many are actually managed properly? There is a duty of care and an onus on the local authorities to take responsibility for the management of these sites.

When I was a councillor, I was part of a group that was set up a number of years ago whereby the local Traveller community, the local residents of Ballyvolane, local councillors and officials, the HSE and the community garda used to come together. It was a great initiative because the Traveller community had its say, as did the local community. We were starting to work things out while working together. However, due to progress moving slowly, members of the Traveller community walked away because they felt it was a talking shop. Groups like this have an important part to play, but there is no point in attending meetings, coming up with policies and suggestions, if nothing happens.

Another example is St. Anthony's Park halting site in Hollyhill. It received major investment about seven or eight years ago - approximately €4 million was spent - which transformed that site. The problem now is that there is a community centre there that is never open, despite having spent the money to set up a brand new site. We know there are significant issues with mental health, suicide and education among members of the Traveller community, and with getting them involved with sports and the arts. A community centre would be a vital part in that.

There are many more issues I would like to raise with the Minister of State. I ask that he touch base with me on some of the issues I have raised, and hopefully we will work together. I have noticed that when the Traveller community and the local community come together, there are the best outcomes for everyone. It is in this regard that we should lead the way with the local authorities. However, if they do not have the funding and resources necessary, we will go nowhere quickly.

I thank Deputy Gould for his kind and good wishes at the outset. I will be clear; I wish to be honest and open with the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee in that I do not have all the answers to this complex issue, but I assure them that I will do my best. I appreciate the guidance from the committee and feedback on the structures I have established. When I took on the role in November of being responsible for Traveller accommodation, I wanted to ensure the structures that reflect the needs of the Traveller community were put in place, through working with the local authorities and the Department, as equal representatives around the table, to chart a way through implementing the 32 recommendations contained in the report.

While I must be careful in what I say about the Ombudsman for Children's office, OCO, report referred to by the Deputy, I will make a few points on it. The OCO report, No End in Site, was a shocking indictment of the State, and we must be honest about that. It highlighted the extreme conditions that vulnerable people were living in, and that is something I do not want to see happen. As a father looking at his children, it makes one take a whole societal approach. In response to that, we approved a project worth €5.4 million, in April 2020, for Traveller-specific accommodation on the adjoining site. We supported the employment, through the Department with the local authority, of a mediator to get clear data from the residents on exactly what type of accommodation they want which will meet their needs. I visited the site and met them in person, and there is a varied response coming back. I wish to put on the record the respectful nature of members of the community, and the way they engaged with me was exemplary. We had a positive meeting with them and all the stakeholders in Cork. We need to liaise strongly and robustly with the local authority to ensure it will carry out what it says it will. It is currently doing a health and safety audit on the site that will highlight a large number of gaps in regard to dangers that are ever-present as one walks across the site.

I thank the Minister of State.

To make it clear, the Government, through the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, has stated that funding is not an obstacle on this matter. I assure Deputy Gould about that if he is going to speak to his constituents. Funding is not an obstacle.

We are now in our second round of questioning and both Fine Gael and Sinn Féin have had a second slot. The next slot is for Fianna Fáil. I am conscious this is a joint committee and I can indicate to the room who I have waiting, given that some members have been here for the whole meeting but have not spoken at all. The next speakers will be Deputies Ó Cuív, Flaherty, Cathal Crowe and O'Donoghue and Senator Moynihan. Given that those speakers have not yet spoken, is the committee agreed to allow them to speak over the remainder of the meeting? Agreed.

I have no doubt about the Minister of State's sincerity in this regard and I also pay tribute to the work of a former Minister of State, Deputy Stanton, when he was in office. The concern is that this is still a problem for Travellers living in absolutely substandard accommodation. Whatever is the flaw in the whole system, we do not seem to have made much progress in 20 years. Over the past ten years we have had the Carrickmines tragedy, which was a massive national tragedy. We have had the report on Cork. We have a position where Travellers in my constituency were put on a temporary halting site and told they would be given proper permanent accommodation. Ten years later they are on a halting site for which the local authority has had no planning permission for over seven years. These families have been waiting for suitable permanent accommodation but they have not got it.

I have a fundamental question. We have all these reports but in each of these cases, there was a crisis on the ground and the system did not act. The Minister of State may talk about the local authority's responsibility in each case but who oversees the local authority not with a velvet glove but with an iron fist? In other words, if things are not happening, who will absolutely enforce the ordinary human rights of people living in properties owned by the local authorities? Until we answer that question, we will be writing reports until the cows come home and we will have tragedy after tragedy.

I was looking at some of the other contributions that will be made later. One of the challenges faced by people in local authority houses is that everything is decided for them, and it is even worse when they are Travellers. The benign idea is that we get the system to design what they want. If the Minister of State or I were to build a one-off rural house, we could decide what we want. If we bought a house, we could decide where we want to live and who we want to live with. It is a general principle but specifically with Travellers it is absolutely vital the community we propose to spend money on is central to what happens. Where people are involved in a process, it is much more likely to be respected and suitable for them.

We have spoken about percentages, specifically mentioning 45% for local authority housing and so on. Are there data on the percentage of homeless people in each local authority who come from this community, which comprises less than 1% of the population? My understanding is that in some of the local authorities the level is up to 50% of the total number of homeless people. They come from a very small minority in the community. Why is that? They find it very hard to access the housing assistance payment, HAP, scheme and private accommodation.

I could not give an ultimate decision between someone's standard form of housing and Traveller-specific housing. We could spend a long time on that this afternoon. I can guarantee one thing, though, and that is that nobody wants people to be homeless. That is absolutely the last resort. Very few Travellers would state HAP as a preference. A very small minority might prefer it but the vast majority do not see it as a permanent solution. We know 18% of them are in the rental accommodation scheme. Standard and Traveller-specific accommodation are two separate matters. There is also the question of the quality-specific accommodation.

With either standard housing or HAP there is another issue. Like with most humans, there is a strong bond of community in the Traveller community and they want to be near family. Not all Travellers belong to the same families, and we recognise there may be a rivalry between families. Nevertheless, they wish to be with their families in many cases. I get this all the time on a human level. I cannot understand, when we allocate houses, that it must be on a numbers game rather than asking whether the person fits into a community where he or she would be happy, have familial supports and be able to support parents in turn.

I could go on. I recognise the Minister of State's attention to this but Ministers come and Ministers go; the problem is the system seems to go on forever with the same failed policies.

I imagine this topic will be covered also in our second session, when we meet representatives of local authorities. As we are out of time for the slot I will go to the next speaker. The Minister of State might use some of his remaining time to answer some of those questions if possible.

I thank the Minister of State for attending. Like the previous speaker, I thank him for his efforts since taking office. I have slightly different take on some of the matters raised so please bear with me.

The first matter is the Traveller accommodation expert review report, published in July 2019. It was a 115-page document and within it was a series of high-level recommendations relating to the provision of Traveller accommodation in the State. I will hone in on one of those recommendations, specifically No. 4. It proposes to "Repeal the Trespass legislation, in particular as it applies to publicly owned land, until an appropriate network of transient provision as envisaged in the 1998 Act has been provided."

That is a crazy proposal and a massive overstretch in policy. It is political correctness gone mad. If this came to pass, we could potentially have encampments in hospital car parks, schoolyards, public parks and the list goes on. These examples are not hysterical or outlandish and there are many examples - too many - of illegal encampments on public property now. This proposal would, of course, serve to make them legal and make it impossible to move on illegal encampments.

We currently have an encampment at Sixmilebridge railway station in County Clare. The approach in this instance seems to be "Here we are, we have rocked up, house us". This is an illegal takeover of a public facility and, moreover, it amounts to leapfrogging of the housing waiting list, which is very unfair to other Traveller families and members of the settled community who have waited years to be housed. What is the current status of the recommendation I referred to? The answer to Traveller accommodation provision surely relates to the provision of transient sites and permanent accommodation and not tearing apart age-old trespassing laws.

A second matter I wish to raise concerns the colossal legal fees faced by local authorities in defending themselves in court on matters relating to Traveller accommodation. This year alone, Clare County Council spent €1.1 million defending legal actions taken against it by various individuals and bodies. It is a waste of public money that would be much better spent in providing accommodation, rather than lining the pockets of lawyers.

I should be clear that Clare County Council, an authority on which I had the honour of serving for 16 years, more than meets its legal obligations in providing Traveller accommodation. Very often, disputes arise because of irreconcilable differences between housing needs versus housing wants. If a local authority has offered suitable accommodation to a Traveller family, it should not be hauled before the courts. The Minister of State has a moral duty to protect local authorities from these actions.

We must provide suitable accommodation, both permanent and transient, for Traveller families, and we have a moral and legal obligation to do so. When it comes to dismantling trespassing laws or expending fortunes on legal actions, we also need to have a good look at ourselves.

I thank Deputy Crowe for his observations, and Deputy Ó Cuív, who is very committed to this area.

We have made significant progress in the past year. One can look at the doubling of the maintenance allowance; an increase in the caretaker refund through the local authority network right up to 75%; Cena, the local authority AHB can now draw down 100% of funding from the capital assistance programme, which were again changes that-----

My apologies, Minister of State-----

Is the recommendation to demolish trespassing going to happen? That is all I want to know.

If the Deputy will allow me, I will do my best to answer . There was one area I wish to respond to for Deputy Ó Cuív on who is responsible for the local authority network. Let us be clear and honest because the members are the guardians of the local authorities up and down the country.

On Deputy’s Crowe’s comments, it can be seen in my opening statement that I specifically referred to the transient sites and having an all-island approach in trying to respond to them.

On the trespass recommendation of the expert report, which was referred to by the Deputy, that is currently with the programme board. It has to liaise with the Department of Justice on the eviction notices and the 24 hours. Putting a cap, stall or moratorium on such evictions was one of the legislative provisions the Dáil voted on in emergency time. That did happen.

I thank the Minister of State and I am determined-----

I do not want to overreach as to what the programme board are doing so I will leave it to them to come back to me.

----- to protect the speaking time of the final three speakers. I will move on now to Deputy Flaherty.

I commend my constituency colleague on his work to date. He has great enthusiasm for this issue, particularly for the Traveller community.

The OCO report was welcome and it has shone a harrowing light on the challenges that many in the Traveller community are facing. We all agree that our transient and halting site accommodation is substandard and has to be addressed as a matter of urgency.

Returning to a point made by Deputy Gould, halting sites need to be future-proofed. There is a familia dimension to the Traveller culture and six to eight bay halting sites simply do not work. Communities may not like it but in reality a halting site needs to be future-proofed and it has to be there for subsequent generations.

I agree with Deputy Ó Cuív that HAP and RAS do not work either. They do not sit well with the Traveller culture, which is very much a culture of a home for life, and that does not fit or feel well with either of those two payments. There is probably a case to be made, therefore, to consider a Traveller-specific rental support scheme.

The key point in the report and in the Minister of State’s opening statement is not fully addressed in any of the accompanying documentation, which is that 45% of the Traveller community are housed in local authority AHBs. I am not seeing where any of the additional supports are coming to local authorities to support those agencies. I come from a county where we have the highest percentage of Traveller population per capita and we have the fastest growing Traveller population aged under 15 in the country. We are very proud of our Traveller community in Longford and they enhance and enrich our local community but Longford County Council and other local county councils would be well-served with additional funding, which would enable them to provide additional support workers to enhance their Traveller accommodation committee and to put staff and boots on the ground to assist these communities.

It is not often that I agree with Deputy Gould but I concur with him that we should bring the best scenarios to the Traveller community while respecting their culture to see how this can enhance the community and bring along the Traveller community together with the rest of an estate. In many instances at the moment I am afraid that our Traveller tenants on our local authority estates feel marginalised and that is a slight on us as housing authorities which we need to address. I do not see it addressed in anything that the Minister of State has laid out in front of us today.

I thank and acknowledge the work done by Deputy Flaherty in County Longford on this issue. Like me, he is very familiar with this issue. As I said at the beginning, we are trying to get completely accurate data so that we can understand the demand and where it lies in respect of the requirements of the Traveller community. That will give us a better understanding in how to respond to this significant challenge. The Deputy is correct to reference the per capita population of members of the Traveller community in Longford who certainly enrich the area. We have significant work to do to support this community through the local authority network.

Since I became Minister of State in November, we have given quite significant additional support. Again, as I pointed out earlier, the capital budget next year has been increased by 25% on 2020. This is significant work and funding which I want to have spent. I want County Longford to ensure that it spends its allocation and, working with the Deputy, we can both ensure that it does that.

If members have specific areas or sites of concern in their constituencies, I ask them to let me know about them. I will try to resolve them and to apply pressure to try to ensure that better standards are maintained within them which is also very important.

I call on Deputy O’Donoghue. I apologise to him as I should have called him in an earlier slot but I inadvertently called another member.

I thank the Vice Chairman and the Minister of State. Like other speakers, I know that the Minister of State is very passionate about this issue. He said there that money is not the issue. Deputy Ó Cuív and others said there has been 20 years of this but that nothing has changed. The Minister of State said then that many inroads have been made in the past 12 months.

I will talk about Limerick. We have large numbers of Traveller communities within Limerick and I know members of many of them. There are some, however, that I do not know. The reason for this is that they are from different Traveller communities. They could be from the UK and have moved here. People with different cultures and from different societies within the Traveller community have moved here and are not from Ireland at all. The problem I find is that when officials are searching for a location for a Traveller community, these communities will state if they have an issue with another Traveller community. They seem to tell the local authorities and everybody that there is an issue within a family of feuding.

Recently in a town in Limerick, and committee members may have seen this, four different Traveller families had a feud. If money is not the issue, why have we not got people who can liaise with those who have a different cultural background? If there is a difference within their cultures, can we not try to work with them rather than having a feud happening where people from all different sides are brought into a community and it causes complete mayhem?

I grew up with members of the Traveller community coming into our home. These were the most skilful people, the tinsmiths, going back to my father’s time in 1911 when my father was able to tell me the stories of the tradespeople who were coming. We now have a different era and culture and there are so many different types of culture within the Traveller community. We must work with the different cultures to ensure that things like this do not happen.

There can be feuds within every community but when four different Traveller communities are coming together to feud in a place, it is not good. There is no issue in our area between the residents and the Traveller community. They all integrate, get on fine and work together. The issue we are finding at the moment relates to the different cultures within the Traveller communities. This issue had been identified before these Traveller community members were housed and were put on a caravan site. We now have an issue, however, where the councils are not prepared and do not have the staff to go out to do the liaison to help these people to get on. We all want to get on, no matter what culture one is, but we cannot have things like this happening in the future where other people’s lives are being put at risk.a

I thank the Vice Chairman and also thank Deputy O’Donoghue for his comments on the issues in his own particular constituency. I do not want to overemphasise the work we have done because I fully understand that there are still vulnerable families living in substandard conditions right across this State, which is something none of us want to see. We have a mountain to climb, which will require engagement from everyone.

In the context of the issue the Deputy raises, there is a network of social workers and liaison officers throughout the 31 local authority areas. I am saying that there is no money in the Traveller accommodation budget. The Deputy is referring to a cross-government approach where one is reaching into An Garda Síochána, the Department of Justice and other State agencies which, I might add, need to step up to the mark in responding and engaging with communities and trying to avert any antisocial behaviour such as that to which the Deputy referred. That is the last thing any of us, including the Deputy and his constituents in County Limerick, want to see or with which they want to contend. It gives everyone a bad name and leaves us all with an even greater challenge to resolve this crisis. I absolutely understand where the Deputy is coming from.

I will spend most of my time letting the Minister of State answer questions. What we have seen in the past while has been a number of people making speeches about their experiences and those experiences being applied to a whole community. In response to Deputy Crowe's remarks on trespassing and transient sites, if we provided transient sites, there would not be a need for people to trespass on unofficial halting sites. That is the key issue. It is also a recommendation. When one calls it an overreach, it is up to the Department as to whether it will accept that recommendation. The Minister of State addressed that point adequately. I also pay tribute to the approach of one of the Deputy's Fianna Fáil colleagues, Deputy Ó Cuív, for his open-minded, human rights-based and passionate approach to the issue of Traveller accommodation. A conversation with Deputy Ó Cuív could enlighten some people on this committee.

One of the recommendations was that there should be an independent national Traveller authority. What is the status of that and are there any plans to get it up and operational? The LDA is taking on a significant role in housing delivery and State sites, outside of local authority sites. Some of us in opposition in the Seanad, tried, by means of amendments, to include Traveller accommodation in the remit of the LDA. What responsibility will the LDA have in this area? Will any targets be given to it in respect of the inclusion of Traveller accommodation in some of the sites they have? I am disappointed that Traveller accommodation was not addressed in the national development plan, which was released to much fanfare. I say that knowing the Minister of State is committed, open-minded and progressive regarding this matter. This is not a criticism of the Minister of State, but it is a pity the national development plan had no reference to it at all.

With regard to the one, overarching agency, the programme board has decided to progress with 18 of the 32 recommendations in the first instance. These are getting acute priority. That is approximately 56% of the recommendations from the expert group. It has taken those on board, in its wisdom. The Traveller community wanted additional representation on the board to ensure equality and a round-table discussion. I acceded to that request immediately. I am being led by the board and the independent chair on the implementation. The agency is on its radar but it is not on the immediate priority of its work. I will be getting timelines in respect of the 18 recommendations. The board has had five meetings since March and has only been established for six months. With regard to the LDA and the multi-annual budget of €4 billion in the Department and Housing for All, I acted robustly to ensure that Traveller accommodation was included in the capital plan. Our commitment, as a State, to resolve the issues therein is very clear. The LDA will be acting on policy from our Department and providing accommodation for our Traveller community.

That concludes the final slot. I thank the Minister of State and his officials for attending. The members of both committees look forward to continuing this conversation with the CCMA and members of the Irish Traveller movement. We will go into private session for three minutes to allow for a changeover and we will then commence the second session with our external guests.

The joint committee went into private session at 4.35 p.m. and resumed in public session at 4.43 p.m.
Senator John Cummins took the Chair.
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