Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage debate -
Tuesday, 5 Apr 2022

Carbon and Energy within the Construction Industry: Discussion

Acting Chairman (Deputy Emer Higgins)

From the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI, we are joined by Mr. Declan Meally, director of business, public sector and transport and Ms Orla Coyle, programme manager, public sector and regulatory programmes. Unfortunately we have received apologies from Mr. Les Carberry from the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications who cannot be with us today. Members have been circulated with the briefing document opening statements. I will shortly ask witnesses for their opening statements and then members will be invited to address their questions to them. I ask them to please remember to confine their questions to five minutes at first. If possible, we will come back to them at the end.

Before we begin, may I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the place where the Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House, in order to participate in public meetings. Both members and witnesses are expected not to abuse the privilege they enjoy. It is my duty as Chair to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with this direction.

Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary privilege practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. The opening statements have been submitted to the committee and will be published on its website after this meeting. I invite Mr. Declan Meally from the SEAI to make his opening statement.

Mr. Declan Meally

I thank the committee for the invitation to attend the meeting today to discuss carbon and energy, and particularly embodied energy, within the construction industry. I am joined today by my colleague Ms Orla Coyle, programme manager, public sector and regulatory programmes. I thank the committee for giving me the opportunity to make my opening statement.

The Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland is at the forefront of delivering a low carbon economy through measures and activities focussed on the transition to a smarter and more sustainable energy future. The SEAI is funded by the Government of Ireland, through its parent Department, the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications, and the Department of Transport. In 2022 our budget allocation is more than €440 million.

The SEAI puts citizens, communities, suppliers, and other stakeholders at the heart of everything it delivers. We focus on developing collaborative partnerships, strong engagement, and smooth customer journeys for the public we serve. At the SEAI, we are acutely aware that the energy transition must be a just transition. This is carefully considered across our programmes of delivery, our research, and our policy advice.

We provide expert advice to drive positive change through our analysis, modelling and support for policymaking. We are catalysts for action through grant and incentive programmes we deliver and through our capacity-building processes with citizens, communities and the business and public sectors. Pursuing our mission, we collaborate closely with a wide range of stakeholders, including Departments, State agencies, and the private sector. We have had a major and transformative impact on the Irish economy. In the past decade, our actions have underpinned more than €1.2 billion in energy savings.

Ireland now has even more ambitious targets and we have been scaling up our operations to meet the challenge. The SEAI is at the heart of delivering the Government’s Climate Action Plan 2021. The plan sets ambitious goals for the built environment to 2030, including: the installation of 600,000 heat pumps; 500,000 B2 home upgrades; large emission reductions in our public services and enterprise sectors; and increased investment in research and innovation.

In terms of carbon budgets, every sector will have its own targets to achieve and will be held to account for allocations which are being defined in 2022. Buildings contribute to 36% of energy-related greenhouse gas emissions in Europe, with the European Commission targeting that our building stock be zero emissions by 2050. This target is the subject of European policy directives currently under stakeholder consultation. The SEAI is working with our colleagues in the Departments of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the Environment, Climate, and Communications in preparation for the changes to the energy performance of buildings and energy efficiency directives.

These will include the following high-level requirements. All new buildings are to be zero emission from 2027 for public buildings and 2030 for all others. The whole life cycle greenhouse gas emissions will be calculated for all new, large buildings greater than 2, 000 sq. m from 2027 and all other buildings from 2030. Minimum energy standards will be required on all buildings.

There is a requirement for whole lifecycle carbon assessments of buildings as part of green public procurement, and inclusion of lifecycle global warming potential resulting from construction for sustainable financing for buildings greater than 5000 sq. m.

We welcome the ambition emerging in these directives. As highlighted through national and international research, as we reduce our operational carbon in our new building and the retrofit of existing building stock, the influence of carbon from materials increases over time. SEAI has recently commissioned a research study investigating lifecycle carbon impact of new and renovated buildings. It is hoped that some of the outputs of this research, including the development of lifecycle assessment methodologies and tools, will assist those in the construction industry. In addition, SEAI has been tasked with the development of a standard calculation methodology under the climate action plan. SEAI considers that there is also a significant role for green public procurement to assist in the task of reducing embodied carbon. The public sector can play a role, setting an example, requesting lower embodied carbon solutions in any buildings and services procured in the future.

The way in which we live must change, but it will be a change for the better. This change will mean our buildings will be warm, comfortable and not heated by oil or gas; our communities will be leading the generation of renewable energy; and our transport fleet will be electrified, charged by a renewable energy powered electricity system. Sustainable energy needs to be the norm. The quicker we achieve this, the sooner the broad range of benefits will flow to Irish citizens and businesses in the form of cheaper-to-run, warmer and healthier buildings, improved air quality, increased competitiveness, improved security of energy supply and many others.

The benefits of the sustainable energy transition far outweigh the costs, particularly when the multiple benefits, namely, financial, economic, employment, health, security of supply and environmental, are considered. We passionately believe the clean energy transition must happen urgently and we stand ready to support all of Irish society on this journey. Our approach is based on insights, research and expertise from two decades of programme delivery. The challenges ahead require us to work at pace and to deliver even greater results, learning and improvements in collaboration with key stakeholders.

In concluding, I thank our colleagues in the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications and the Department of Transport for their ongoing support, particularly in the context of the actions assigned to SEAI under the Climate Action Plan 2021 and the national development plan. I also thank the officials in the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage for their continued support to SEAI. I welcome discussion with the committee and I am happy to answer any questions that members may wish to raise.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Emer Higgins)

I thank Mr. Meally for his comprehensive statement. There is not a member here from Fianna Fáil, so I will go to Sinn Féin first. I call Deputy Ó Broin.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Just before the clock starts, did we get an explanation from the Department as to why nobody was available?

Acting Chairman (Deputy Emer Higgins)

Yes. Unfortunately, Mr. Carberry, who was due to be with us, firstly had some technical difficulties, then beyond that found out he had Covid, so he cannot be here with us today. Apologies were received from the Department. I understand that other staff in the Department were at a conference, so were unable to substitute for Mr. Carberry at short notice.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Obviously, if someone has Covid, that is completely understandable, but I understand that Mr. Warren Phelan was also to attend the meeting, and he is not here.

First, I thank Mr. Meally for the presentation. We are at a slight disadvantage, because the idea of these two sessions today and the session next week was in the context of what we are soon going to learn will be the sectoral emissions reduction targets that are relevant to this committee. The idea was that we could have an informed conversation around not only how we reduce the operational emissions through the retrofit programme and other related matters, but crucially, the embodied carbon, because it is one of the bits of the emissions reduction debates that does not happen publically enough. It is less controversial than some of the other areas, such as car usage or the national herd. I think many of us in the committee wanted to be able to try an inform that public debate. Obviously, SEAI's contribution is crucial to that. We might try and see if it is possible to get representatives of the Department in at a later stage.

Irish Green Building Council produced an important report at the end of last year, as the witnesses are aware, on foot of some research it commissioned from the UCD School of Architecture. If all the Government's targets and the work of SEAI and the retrofit programme works out according to plan, we will see very significant year-on-year reductions in the operational emissions from the built environment. However, one of the concerning findings of the report is that because we are way behind the curve in terms of implementing new building processes and materials in the built environment to reduce embodied carbon, as the national development plan infrastructural development increases, there could be an upward swing in embodied carbon in the built environment. We are particularly concerned about the area of housing. We want to see as much housing being built as possible, but we would also like to ensure that the housing is built with the lowest possible emissions.

First, are the witnesses in a position to give us any information about SEAI's work with the Department and the Department's work with local authorities or the private sector to give us a little bit of a flavour of where those conversations are at? It is a question that I would have asked the representatives of the Department, but they are not here. I am hoping the representatives of SEAI have some information on that. Halfway through his opening statement, Mr. Meally spoke about how the Government has some high-level requirements. He stated that "All new buildings are to be zero-emission from 2027 for public buildings, and 2030 for all others". Am I right in saying that refers to operational emissions rather than the embodied carbon? I am trying to return the conversation to what it is, in the SEAI's view, as a society that we need to be doing to ensure that as we are building more homes, and the more the better, they are built with the lowest possible level of emissions. For example, I looked at new residential developments sponsored by local authorities in London, and they are negative carbon. They are not net-zero, or zero. The overall embodied carbon and operational carbon are so low, with offsets provided, mean they are going in the other direction. Are there discussions or conversations ongoing, or is there anything the witnesses can share with us in the committee around that?

Finally, it is the intention of the committee to produce some kind of report, making some recommendations to Government as to what we would like to see it do. There are many members on both sides of the House who are keen to do that. The specific areas of responsibility that fall under this committee include issues around public procurement. Mr. Meally briefly mentioned green procurement earlier in relation to planning and planning law and public house building and the materials and standards we use. If SEAI had a wish list, what would be on that wish list, specifically in terms of how we accelerate the move towards zero-carbon buildings, particularly with respect to embodied carbon?

Mr. Declan Meally

I thank the Deputy for his questions, which were excellent. I thank him for the opportunity, insofar as I can give him our own thoughts and discussions on some of the work that is ongoing. My colleague, Ms Coyle, can talk about some of the work that is being done. We are very conscious of the Irish Green Building Council report and the work with UCD. We are also funding some other work with them this year. The Deputy will know the phrase "what gets measured gets done". The key thing for us, from an SEAI point of view and nationally, is really how we are going to account for this and what the accounting methodology is in relation to embodied carbon. The task that has been set to us is helping to co-ordinate that over 2022 and to have a methodology at the beginning of 2023 in terms of how the embodied carbon is going to be carried out. We have commissioned some research to follow on from that study with the Irish Green Building Council. Hopefully, we will see the outputs of that coming to the fore towards the end of this year, in terms of starting to see what the methodologies will be. A lot of work has been done and there are a lot of discussions internationally in relation to that. I will refer to Ms Coyle on that.

I will skip to the Deputy's third question on the wish list. I think the Deputy hit the nail on the head in respect of where the biggest opportunity is. We feel that through green public procurement, there are tools there that can be brought in. Again, a good concerted effort is being made across the public sector, under the green public procurement working groups, to look at how we can do some of this work. We have a working group across the public sector where we started that debate. We are sharing knowledge across that group. It it about ensuring that it is not a greenwashing within a procurement exercise. We must ensure that there are actually meaningful clauses within the procurements and the documents to say that this is what we are looking for when we are procuring our new buildings, and that the embodied carbon is a factor that is taken into account and probably scored as part of the procurement rules on it.

Ms Coyle will reply to the Deputy’s question on the targets. It is on the operational side, but she might outline some of the work that is ongoing internationally.

Ms Orla Coyle

On the zero-emissions building side of it, that conversation is ongoing at a European level to define the energy performance and buildings directive. Zero-emissions buildings, which relate to the operational side, are defined as very highly energy-efficient, with no carbon produced on site, so no fossil fuels, whether gas or oil, can be burned. All the energy is supplied by some form of renewable. That is the definition as set out in the energy performance and buildings directive. As I said, this is under discussion with all the member states and the conversation is ongoing.

On top of that, there is an embodied carbon requirement, that is, a calculation of the embodied carbon associated with any new building, as part of the EU directive. That is the second part. The zero-emissions building aspect relates to the operational side and there is an embodied carbon calculation associated with that.

As for the conversations we have been having and some of the research - the Deputy referred to the IGBC report - we have seen at a European level suggests the retrofit work being carried out, such as the installation of heat pumps and the targets we have set for retrofitting 500,000 homes, is the best in terms of the overall carbon associated with building when the embodied energy and the operational energy are both taken into account. As Mr. Meally said, we have commissioned additional research, which is ongoing, that will, we hope, be more Ireland-specific, so we will be able to take some learnings from that. We also have a number of other projects ongoing as part of our national retrofit package that will allow us to get the right balance in what we are trying to achieve. We are looking at when is the best time to install heat pumps in the context of the level of fabric upgrades that will need to be applied to the building. There are ongoing discussions seeking to get the best out of the retrofit market.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I apologise for missing some of the meeting but I was scheduled to ask a question in the House on promised legislation.

The idea behind this session is that we can better understand, as part of the expansion of public housing throughout the State and the provision of Housing for All as a total package, how we can ensure we are building energy efficiency and sustainability into the stock, as well as the measures we are taking to examine the existing stock. The better energy homes scheme is probably one of the most popular schemes in my office, and I have some questions about the scheme and how it will operate. What work has SEAI done with the Department and local authorities to ensure that near-zero, or negative, carbon approach is being taken to the new stock being provided, whether through AHBs or local authorities?

Mr. Declan Meally

In respect of the new housing stock, that is really within the gift of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage as opposed to us, given we are looking at retrofit-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Has SEAI engaged with the Department regarding that objective?

Mr. Declan Meally

There are ongoing discussions with the Department on building regulations, both for retrofit and for new standards of buildings. Over the years, for example, we have tested new housing designs and so on as we were proving building regulations and as they were catching up. We are also involved in the building energy rating of homes and the energy performance of buildings. There are ongoing discussions with SEAI.

As for the setting of the standards of new housing, we feed into that and understand what is there. Part of our focus will be to try to ensure that as much of the retrofitting as possible will be carried out, because that will then use the housing stock that has the carbon embodied within it.

The other part of this, which both I and we as an organisation will be pushing for, relates to town centre revival and using streetscapes and areas above shops that are vacant and could be developed and turned into residential areas. Again, there are opportunities in that regard where carbon is embodied within that. That will involve refurbishment but it will bring on another form of housing stock and opportunities to create the living space within towns and to see that taking off.

In short, we are continually engaging, but the new housing stock is within the gift of the Department and its function under Housing for All.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

We can put these questions directly to representatives of the Department when they are available. Certainly in my view, there should be no fossil fuel-based heating systems in any new homes that are built. There is no point in us having a retrofitting programme if we are building homes that, ultimately, will have to be retrofitted a second time.

To return to the better energy homes scheme, given it is SEAI that is appearing before the committee, it is an incredibly popular scheme. The number of applicants in Dublin has increased from 177 to 400 a month. Will the authority be able to reach those targets? The timeline of waiting times for people to avail of the scheme has drifted a little, and now homes that previously had attic insulation are entitled to wraparound where previously they would have been excluded. SEAI has a lot on its plate. Has it identified the challenges relating to this? There is also a programme whereby local authorities are carrying out very similar work. It is often the case that SEAI's contractors will be working in one area while local authority contractors are working in another, and we might be better off marrying the two objectives in order that an entire road could be completed at once rather than having to wait for all the local authority houses to be done before moving on to the private homes, many of which are bought-out council houses.

Mr. Declan Meally

As the Deputy will probably be aware, my colleagues, including the CEO and those responsible for the retrofit programme such as the director and the manager, attended a committee meeting earlier in which they comprehensively went through all the different programmes, including the better energy homes scheme. Although it is not my specific area, I can give a general outline. This year, more than 4,000 homes are scheduled and a budget has been given to us to address that number of homes. It is recognised there is a challenge within the supply chain to increase the scale and ensure that can be addressed. Nevertheless, on the basis of what we have with a panel of procured contractors as well as contractors working on other schemes, the challenge is that they were procured in 2019 and price increases have kicked in since then. There is work to be done, therefore, and there remains the affordability aspect in regard to the price for what they can do. It is full tilt regarding the budget allocated and the targets that have been set for SEAI, and we are on track to achieve them.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

What about partnering or working with local authorities?

Mr. Declan Meally

That is the holy grail in respect of where we want to get to. A project that began last year and is due to conclude later this year termed it the midlands project. The idea was to examine housing estates as a group. Some of those housing estates are owned by the local authority and populated by local authority residents, while others have been bought and still others comprise private renters, who may be in fuel poverty. The idea is to get those estates into a group and, as the Deputy suggested, to take a terrace or a street together. It is difficult because there are different forms of ownership but, from our early learnings through working with local authorities in the midlands, we have seen there are opportunities to build on that.

We must encourage work through communities. We have 600 sustainable communities around the country.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Last week, I saw a maisonette where only the top storey had been retrofitted, which is a completely farcical situation, but that was due to there being two different schemes and two different owners. There was no joined-up thinking at all. I accept that it is not the case, but there is definitely benefit in marrying thing together. I will ask more questions in the second round.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe took the Chair.

Deputy Emer Higgins

I thank Mr. Meally for his opening statement and I thank Ms Coyle for her contribution. We have heard about a situation where the climate gets warmer so we need more comfortable homes and offices that are better for the environment. We have increased competition from a business perspective and improved security of energy supply. That is the Ireland in which I want to live. They have captured so well what we all aspire to, and what so much of the retrofitting grants and all of the different schemes that we are all working towards aspire to achieve.

I was interested in the comment: "Buildings contribute to 36% of energy-related greenhouse gas emissions in Europe, with the European Commission targeting that our building stock will be zero emissions by 2050." Can Mr. Meally say what is best practice within the EU at the moment? Is Ireland reducing energy-related greenhouse gas emissions, increasing the energy performance of buildings and complying with energy efficiency directives?

An issue that was alluded to here - it is, unfortunately, something we talk about regularly at the committee - is the price of inflation and its impact on the price of housebuilding and on the end product from the perspective of consumers. Is there any estimate as to whether these regulations will increase the price of homes for consumers?

Mr. Meally clearly stated that the benefits of these measures far outweigh the costs and I completely agree. I am interested in hearing the SEAI's perspective on how we should convey to the wider public that the benefits outweigh the cost? I ask because we want to bring the public on this journey.

Interestingly, Mr. Meally said about tenders that we need "meaningful clauses within the procurements and the documents", especially in State contracts. I agree with what Deputy McAuliffe said about the better energy warmer homes scheme. Such a scheme goes down well with the communities that I represent, such as those in Clondalkin and Lucan, and in the context of one-off rural houses. These homes will were built a number of decades ago and their inhabitants really see the benefit of the scheme. They feel the benefit physically in terms of having warmer homes but they also see it in reduced electricity and-or home heating bills.

Mr. Meally spoke about a panel of procurement contractors. It is slightly concerning to think how dramatically things have changed from a trader's perspective in a few years. I would welcome his thoughts on how we can ensure that we have a really strong pipeline of construction workers to make those grants happen for the 4,000 people who are currently on the scheme.

Mr. Meally also referred to creating living spaces in towns by renovating spaces located over the shop. The committee has talked a great deal about tackling vacancy and dereliction. I wish to put on the record that there is a huge benefit for us to create these spaces, and also in the context of retrofitting.

I would like answers to my questions on energy-related greenhouse gas emissions and the EU and Ireland perspectives. What are the potential additional costs to the end buyer because of the energy efficiency directives? How does Mr. Meally feel we should sell this to the public?

Mr. Declan Meally

I shall respond to the three aspects of the question on best practice. Across the board, from an energy point of view, we are looking at renewables and energy efficiency. In terms of how we fair with that and, in terms of renewables, there is renewable heat and renewable electricity. On renewable electricity, we are at an average of over 40% in terms of the amount of energy that is generated from electricity. That is one of the highest in the world. Denmark and one or two other countries, in terms of where they are going, on average are higher but we are still well up there in terms of our rate of renewable electricity. Our target by 2030 is to get to 80% on average every day. On a day with high winds over 80% of our electricity is generated from wind and many people realise that. We are well up there on the energy renewable side for renewable electricity. We do not do as well with renewable heat, and the rate is quite low. Other countries such as Denmark and the Scandinavian countries have district heating whereby they feed in biomass or woodchips so they have local supplies. That technology is a big opportunity for this country in terms of retrofitting, and putting into larger cities and towns the opportunity for district heating, the heating of public buildings and using heating networks. That is one opportunity.

Deputy Emer Higgins

Is Mr. Meally familiar with the Tallaght district heating system?

Mr. Declan Meally

Yes.

Deputy Emer Higgins

How does Mr. Meally view the system?

Mr. Declan Meally

It is an excellent opportunity. Again, when one gets heat that is generated by the data centre and an opportunity to feed into the district heating system and local homes, it is a perfect symbiosis in terms of the two of them working together. Dublin City Council and South Dublin County Council have worked on district heating networks and Codema. They have looked at these opportunities and are developing energy master plans for those areas. These are ideal opportunities because there is a density of homes, businesses, etc., that can use the energy. That is the idea in terms of planning forward. We must ask ourselves can we have heat sources beside homes. In terms of the future, we are not doing so well on heating but there are opportunities for us in terms of the way to go.

On efficiencies, we are doing very well in terms of the fact that we have set our public targets and energy efficiency. We were the first country to set up an energy management standard. That became a European standard and it is now a world standard. I refer to the ISO 50001, which was developed by the SEAI in 2006. It has become a European standard. We are leading areas.

The CEO of the SEAI made a presentation at the International Energy Agency about our retrofit plans, which are seen as leading. Other countries want to understand how we do this. I mean how have we done 400,000 homes already. Ireland is doing quite well. We still have a good bit of catching up to do on the emissions side and reducing emissions but we have huge opportunities and have set leads in particular areas. I hope that I have given a flavour of where matters stand.

In terms of how can we sell this to the consumer, the Deputy said it herself when she referred to the fact that the people in Tallaght and Clondalkin say the scheme is fantastic. People sell the idea to each other. The SEAI sees the best way is peer to peer or selling the idea to each other through community groups. We have 600 sustainable energy communities who are teaching and lead the way. They have shown the lead to local authorities by taking action themselves and saying this is the way to go. It is about finding a way to say: "Listen, this is what we have done as a community group. Come and see my house. Look at the heat pump. There is no mystery. My house is so much warmer." A resident said to me that they no longer wear an overcoat in bed. It is the telling of those stories to the people and the neighbours and conveying that this way of life is a no-brainer and the way things should be. We also have national campaigns but conveying the message by word of mouth is the way to go. We can use our community networks and get the message out there. That is how we should go about it.

Vice Chairman

I call Deputy Francis Noel Duffy . Mr. Meally can come back in at our next round.

Deputy Francis Noel Duffy

I thank the witnesses for their contributions. I have read their statements. How will the State implement the embodied carbon targets going forward and is there a plan for doing so? I am glad to welcome all the witnesses here today. I am a little disappointed that the Department official could not make it.

However as members know and it may have been discussed - I am sorry I missed the first part of this session - buildings are currently responsible for 39% of global energy-related carbon emissions according to the number I have to hand. Of that, 28% is from operational emissions, that is, the energy needed to heat, cool, light and power them and the remaining 11%, according to my research, is from embodied carbon of materials both globally and here. Embodied carbon emissions come from materials in the following way, initially by extraction through to manufacture, fabrication, construction, maintenance and end-of-life disassembly. Moreover, it is important to note that the material at whatever stage of its life cycle has to be transported between all of the aforementioned processes. which adds to the embodied carbon load of any particular material. From my research over the past number of years and in particular from meeting with various stakeholders throughout the country, Ireland definitely lags behind other EU jurisdictions when it comes to reducing our emissions in the built environment and in particular CO2 emissions. While we have done really well with Part L and that end of it, the Dutch, the Danes, the French, the Finns and the Swedes are all in the process of preparing life-cycle carbon targets. The term describes operational and embodied emissions combined. It is that combined effort. The UK is storming ahead with its London energy transformation initiative. It is an amazing document and I recommend it to anybody to read. There is an embodied carbon primer that goes with it. It is a comprehensive protocol that aligns with the Irish Green Building Council’s thinking on how we set targets on procurement methodologies to reduce embodied carbon.

A transition plan is required and the best route, from my understanding of the construction procurement system, is through clear carbon targets. This should be somewhat akin to the Part L energy conservation guidelines where we use the building energy rating, BER, code. That is where we need to get to at some stage; I am not sure when that will happen.

I had two questions for the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications but I have changed them slightly so there are now three questions for the SEAI. Has the Department engaged with the SEAI to begin the process of establishing embodied carbon targets? Are the representatives from the SEAI aware whether legislatively these targets can be introduced by way of ministerial regulation? In its opening statement, the SEAI noted it received €440 million in budget 2022. How much of this budget is allocated towards embodied carbon research and funding for pilot projects endeavouring to exercise construction methodologies and materials that reduce embodied carbon?

Vice Chairman

There are just three and a half minutes to reply to all of that.

Deputy Francis Noel Duffy

Three questions. On the last one, I have engaged with the SEAI and I am not sure how much is happening in that space.

Mr. Declan Meally

I thank the Deputy. These are all good points. I take his point on a transition plan being required in related to how it is going. That is the way it is. At the moment much of the work we are doing now, as I explained to the Deputies earlier, is understanding how to actually calculate the targets and understand what is it in terms of the embodied carbon. I will let my colleague, Ms Coyle, talk a bit about that as well. In regard to the embodied carbon research I do not have a figure in terms of how much would be directly related to it. The research budget is between €15 million and €20 million of our €440 million. Some of that is going now to embodied carbon research, to the Irish Green Building Council, to do calculations in regard to the transition plan, on what we need and how are we going to get outputs from that to help us develop a methodology. Ms Coyle can talk about some of the work she mentioned earlier that we are doing internationally and linking in because it is a European-wide issue.

Ms Orla Coyle

Under the EU energy performance of buildings directive, there is a proposal that embodied carbon will be calculated as part of it for new buildings. As part of that we are involved with a number of steering groups at an EU level discussing policy. I am aware of the numbers the Deputy mentioned and they are going to be at the forefront of this process. We have had discussions with, and I am assuming the Deputy is talking about the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage when he asked has the Department engaged-----

Deputy Francis Noel Duffy

Sure.

Ms Orla Coyle

We have engaged with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and one of its main concerns is about the construction product regulation and the changes that are happening there. It does not want to go ahead with that change in the construction product regulation as to how the embodied carbon associated with materials is reported at an EU level and then develop something in Ireland that might be ahead of the game. We are in those discussions and we are involved with the Department.

In regard to the research that Mr. Meally highlighted, as he said we are starting to look at that process. There are international standards around the calculation methodology. We are trying to understand the implications and we have a research project that we commissioned this year looking at the impact of embodied carbon both on new-build and on retrofit and looking at sustainable materials and the impact they have. It has been updated. The Deputy talked about the 11%, we can bring that into the Irish context and develop the approach from that side. We do not have a specific target as yet in terms of what level you have to achieve to proceed with construction. That will be part of the research that is being carried out.

Deputy Francis Noel Duffy

I know I am running out of time but the feedback I got from Seán Armstrong and the Department officials the last time was that levels is the route we are taking in the context of measurement. An A-rated building, it depends on the building type but it is around 200 to 300 and it goes up from that. That is what the international data suggest at the moment.

Ms Orla Coyle

The standard that I quoted is EN 15978. That is the level it uses so it is the same context. What I meant is I do not know whether Mr. Armstrong has set a standard that this is what you have to achieve, or whether the Department has set a standard that has to be achieved for a new-build. It would be the same calculation as is used in levels.

Deputy Francis Noel Duffy

I will come back later.

Senator Rebecca Moynihan

My apologies, I was at something else and now I have to go to the Seanad. To clarify, is the Department not here, it is just the SEAI?

Vice Chairman

I believe the person responsible is unable to attend because of illness.

Senator Rebecca Moynihan

That is no problem. I prepared a couple of questions and some were for the Department. I might read them out anyhow. Do we expect the Department will be able to come in? Maybe the Department can come back to us. It is in regard to the resource intensity of the construction sector. This is not a question for the Chair but it would be interesting to get an indication on how the Department sees these actions being enforced to ensure there is across-the-board compliance in the construction sector. Does the Department think we need legislation to be effective beyond the Waste Management Act and Minerals Development Act? I would be grateful if the Chair could ask the Department. I will happily send in the question afterwards.

Vice Chairman

That was agreed earlier, that is, we would have an opportunity to put questions.

Deputy Francis Noel Duffy took the Chair.

Senator Rebecca Moynihan

Perfect. As I was late I was unaware of that. I have a question for the SEAI. There is a research study investigating lifestyle carbon impact on new and renovated buildings to be published. Can I have an indication from the SEAI on when it envisages this report will be published? The carbon intensity of new-builds and what we see in many of the developments coming through is that we have perfectly acceptable buildings with perfectly acceptable materials being torn down and new buildings being put in place. For example Deputy Ó Broin has done work on this. Can I have an indication on when this is proposed to be published? The proposed changes to the energy performance of buildings and energy efficiency directives provide that all new buildings are to be zero emissions from 2030 and public buildings from 2027. In light of the IPCC report yesterday does the SEAI think it is too late at that stage to do that? How does it propose we can move something like that along more quickly?

Buildings contribute to about 36% of energy-related greenhouse gas emissions. With the European Commission targeting their stock will be zero emissions by 2050, do we think that is soon enough?

Can anything else be done to bring that forward in terms of the intensity of the construction sector and buildings?

Mr. Declan Meally

I will let my colleague talk about the research piece and I will address the latter question about the report. The report stated that we are in last-chance territory in regard to actions to be taken on it. It is down to all of us as to how quickly we can react and as to programmes. My colleague was explaining earlier that, even in terms of the embodied carbon, this is something that we are trying to collectively get our heads around at a European level, understand the methodology on it and how this can be taken into account. I totally agree, and said it earlier, that where we can provide energy upgrades using the existing building stock, using the embodied carbon that is already in place, that is preferable to building new units on green field sites. All of that should be something we can look at. I think the Department is doing that anyway and working with local authorities. There is an ambition to have decarbonisation zones. These could be seen as exemplary in order to help fast-track how we can do things with different local authorities. There is an opportunity to look at those areas to see if we can move things forward on it.

The targets that have been set are ambitious. There is an ambition of reaching the 2027 target. Everybody is working to so that we can move as quickly as possible. On that research and the discussions at European level, we can move as fast as the data comes to us in the context of setting standards. We have set a lead on that before with what we have done in Ireland. Under the energy performance of buildings directive, EPBD, we were one of the first countries out of the blocks in getting building energy ratings. There are always opportunities to try to speed it up but we have to work with our European colleagues so that everybody is on the same page rather than trying to rush ahead.

Ms Orla Coyle

On the output from the research project, it is due to be published in Q1 of next year. On the building regulations and the move to zero-emission buildings, a question was raised earlier about where Ireland stands. Ireland is at the forefront in Europe in our building regulations and the targets we have for new buildings. One can see from the building energy rating, BER, database that the majority of homes being built are using heat pumps or renewable technologies, and are highly energy efficient.

Senator Rebecca Moynihan

I am not asking about the standard of new homes being built. It is about the replacing of existing buildings that could be repurposed as opposed to being pulled down, and the intensity of the use of building materials in that process.

Ms Orla Coyle

The research will probably feed into that as to the savings in embodied energy end embodied carbon associated with the repurpose of those buildings rather than tearing them down.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Francis Noel Duffy)

The Senator has a minute remaining.

Senator Rebecca Moynihan

Maybe the witnesses can answer the Chair's questions with the time remaining. I do not have anything further to add.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Francis Noel Duffy)

I will follow up later as well because I have a few questions. Did we pursue part L in isolation as a State or did we follow Europe?

Ms Orla Coyle

It was following the European directive, the EPBD. The building regulations are developed based on the cost optimal study. The level that we have set is one of the highest at European level based on our discussions with our European colleagues.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

I wish to follow on from what Senator Moynihan raised about this issue. As others mentioned, some 11% of global emissions come from or are associated with upfront embodied carbon emissions from new construction, therefore, this area is hugely important. Exactly as Senator Moynihan mentioned, I frequently see perfectly good buildings near where I live being fully demolished only to be replaced, quite ironically, with a building that is good in terms future emissions but, due to the construction and demolition, has been an environmental disaster. Perfectly good buildings are being demolished along with all the embodied carbon and waste generated from that.

As to the statement that Ireland is at the forefront in terms of building regulations in this area, what is the situation with embodied carbon and building regulations in Ireland? Is embodied carbon covered under building regulations?

Ms Orla Coyle

No. It is currently not covered.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

In terms of embodied carbon, it would not be fair to say that Ireland is at the forefront in terms of building regulations. Other European countries have building regulations in this area, such as France and Holland, and, as we heard earlier, many countries are speeding ahead in putting regulations in place. It is probably not true, in terms of embodied carbon, that Ireland is at the forefront. Would it be fair to say that we are actually behind other European countries in that regard?

Ms Orla Coyle

We probably are behind a couple of other countries. There are not too many but there are other countries leading.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

We have heard that work is ongoing to progress towards putting regulations in place, but the current situation is that this are no definitive plans. We do not have a particular time limit or definite commitments.

I wish to ask about another area that relates to a written submission the committee received, which is public knowledge, so I am sure it is fine to reference it. In the Circular Economy, Waste Management (Amendment) and Minerals Development (Amendment) Bill 2022, there is provision for a new levy on waste recovery activities, a levy on materials being incinerated or sent to landfill, in order to create a cost associated with that. We know that a huge issue around carbon and emissions in the context of construction is the waste of sending good materials that could be reused to landfill sites and not using them in a circular way. The Government has committed to not applying a levy, for the time being, on construction and demolition waste. As Deputy Duffy mentioned, if one looks at the transport costs due to demolition waste, let alone the embodied carbon, it is hugely significant.

The latest report from the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change was very clear in how stark the situation is. It stated that this was the last possible chance to take decisive action on this. My view is that there should be decisive action taken against people who demolish perfectly good buildings with lots of embodied carbon in them rather than renovating and retrofitting them. If there is not a good justification for demolition, it should not be legal. If the building is good, it should be retrofitted, renovated and extended where possible. Is it correct that there is no disincentive, apart from the costs people privately incur, or policy that disincentivises the full demolition of buildings or construction waste going to landfill or being incinerated? I would love to hear if the SEAI has any views on that whole area.

Mr. Declan Meally

Obviously, the use of demolition waste, its recovery and the circular economy sits within the remit of the Environmental Protection Agency. It is not within the gift of the SEAI in terms of the energy piece. I would not even attempt to comment on the waste piece.

Obviously we are dealing with the public sector and also commercial sectors with regard to energy retrofits and energy upgrades. Increasingly, the organisations we are dealing with and the investment community on the private side are looking at the investment case in respect of taking into account the embodied energy within a building rather just saying they will knock it and build from scratch because they can get X, Y and Z into it, be it extra floors or whatever.

We had our energy show last week and there was a specific area looking at this in the commercial sector, so it is getting much more focus. We are certainly getting a sense that there are many more cases of looking at retrofitting rather than knocking and building. We look at that across the board with regard to the programmes we have and in terms of encouraging it, to see if there is an easier way to decarbonise the building rather than knock it and build again. It appears that the business case is coming more towards retrofit than knocking it when that is taken into account. Institutional investment funds will take into account whether one is getting rid of embodied carbon and adding to a carbon budget one does not have if one is going to knock it and build it new. It has become very much front and centre in terms of any of the large estate management companies looking at this from an Ireland point of view, and that is becoming an international trend as well.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

It is because they are measuring their carbon.

Mr. Declan Meally

Yes.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

That is an incentive not to.

Mr. Declan Meally

Yes, and it is being looked at by investment funds, pension funds and others, to see if there is an embodied carbon issue that they want to consider. Rather than just knocking and building a new set of commercial offices, can they do it easier? It is taking all matters into account. Do they change the facade of the building or do they keep the building even as it is? They may have a higher running temperature but they will run a heat pump in it because they will be able to decarbonise the energy piece. All of that is becoming very much front and centre in that regard.

The Deputy asked if there is a plan. There are actions within the climate action plan and actions that sit with us in terms of the methodology to be ready for next year. That is part of the reason we are doing the research on that part of it. It is not just with the SEAI. Obviously, we will be working with our colleagues in the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and others in tying that into it as well. I hope that addresses the point.

Deputy Richard O'Donoghue

I have been in construction all my life. When I was elected to the county council I brought up the carbon footprint for county councils when they are doing their works for the year and budgeting their works for the year. They ask people their carbon footprint when they are building a house, yet our government bodies do not look at it when they are doing the budgets for the roads. They often take the yearly budgets and might use a quarry 30 miles away when there is a quarry in the works they are doing. If they use the carbon footprint, it would make sense that they use a local quarry that would have the certified stone. However, they look at the bottom line, an accounting line. They will say they are paying €6 per tonne there for stone and it would cost €6.50 for it from the local person, so the government does not do its own work either on its carbon footprint. I have watched budgets being given by a local authority and the Government to quarries 30, 40 and 50 miles away from the project. It comes back to "do as I say, but not as I do". We can make all the regulations in the world, but if the Government and the local authorities do not look at themselves first why would one look at somebody else and try to enforce something that is not being enforced in the Government? That is the fact. I see it in every budget from the county council and in my own building.

I am still building every day, thank God. It keeps me on the ground. It keeps me up on a first-day basis with the price increases and transport costs across the country. I see it at first hand each week. I am a lover of older buildings if they can be saved. If buildings are beyond repair, I am also for people building new sections onto the back of old buildings and keeping as much of the old structure as they can. I also support materials that come from buildings being recycled and reused, but under the current licensing laws any infill that comes from sites must go to a licensed infill. Much of this infill can be reused. There are blocks, limestone and sandstone from buildings that are being taken down, but the criteria of the planning mean one must take them to a licensed infill. That material is costing so much more to make on the other side, whereas it can be re-crushed and used on roads and for rebuilding stone buildings. We can do a great deal of work with buildings that are being taken down, but the laws in place for the councils and for planning permission do not allow for this. To me, it is common sense. In addition, if, for example, someone wants the limestone from a property that is being taken down and that person moves the limestone to the other property, they will be in trouble with the county council because they are in receipt of imported goods from another site. Again, this is perfectly reusable material that can be used on another site.

This is where I see it going around in circles. I have experience of doing anything from extensions to hotel renovations such as Dromoland Castle and Adare Manor - I was involved in those projects - as well as industrial commercial projects. I can see what one hand is saying and what the other hand is doing. I would like to see the local authorities take a direction that it is not just down to price in their budgets when they are doing their roads or their retrofit building. It is down to a certified quality material within the area where the work is being done and then it can budget out from that. It might cost more locally, but there is less carbon footprint than in bringing stone 30 or 40 miles over already inadequate roads to get to a road that is being replaced. I have raised this issue many times. What can the SEAI do to bring that type of legislation for local authorities whereby they have to use the carbon footprint?

Mr. Declan Meally

Obviously, the Deputy has a good knowledge of both the construction side and what I will term his own circular economy and the opportunities there. As I explained in responding to the last question, the waste area in the circular economy is under the EPA as opposed to the SEAI. However, I see that coming increasingly to the fore. Where it is coming more to the fore, and it is an area that is directly related to the SEAI, is through green public procurement. I mentioned it in response to Deputy Ó Broin earlier and we talked about it in terms of the opportunities that it is bringing. Our remit with local authorities relates to the energy they use, but increasingly many of the discussions we are having with them are about the energy they influence. That is the communities and others that are outside the boundary. We have focused on their own emissions and the local authorities have been doing very well in the public sector in meeting their targets to 2020.

On the green procurement opportunity, the discussions started a number of years ago. We feed into the green public procurement working group, in which the local authorities and public sector organisations are an active part. They are trying to get their heads around how they score the likes of embodied carbon and carbon footprints in the contracts they are awarding. That is an evolving body of knowledge within those organisations. It is also something that is being driven directly because the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications also has the EPA in its remit, and the environment side of the house has a principal officer directly involved on the circular economy itself. That is coming increasingly to the fore in driving the behaviours of local authorities and telling them what they will have to have as part of their green public procurement. It will not be just green procurement but standard public procurement that they will have to look at this and take those areas into it.

That is where the influence will come. In the case of the SEAI, the network we have created and the knowledge we are sharing through the public bodies, the public sector, local authorities and so on are intended to make them aware there is an impact other than just the financial one. It is not just about the value for money and the bottom line. We work with the Office of Government Procurement, OGP, as part of this in the context of green public procurement to see how it can be scored in, valued and related in that regard. It is a big lever that the local authorities-----

Deputy Richard O'Donoghue

How can we join the dots between the agencies such that they will all sing off the same hymn sheet and they will not say a given issue is some other agency's responsibility?

Mr. Declan Meally

The green public procurement group is a national group. It works across all Departments and the public sector in general, with various agencies. The dots have been joined in respect of that group to ensure the information is starting to be delivered. The likes of the OGP, which sets the rules at a national level, have seen those being embedded at a national level as well.

Deputy Joe Flaherty

It is regrettable that no representatives from the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications are attending this session but they will, I hope, appear before the committee on this theme in the near future. The Acting Chairman might note that we have requested them to attend again.

I am very excited by the circular economy, probably to my wife's consternation. I am an enthusiastic upcycler and I see great opportunities for it, especially in rural Ireland. We will have a very significant opportunity if we get this right, but it is important that there be a key role for local authorities. Going back in time, 20 or 30 years ago, the management and collection of waste function was given up by all local authorities but that is an important space for them to get back into, not least in the context of the circular economy, which is very important at the moment. The vast majority of counties have no opportunity to upcycle paint waste, most of which is poured either down the toilet or directly into sewers. We need to stop that, and the only way of doing so is to have a dedicated circular economy facility within every two counties, if not within each county. The Employment, Development and Information, EDI, Centre, Longford is enthusiastic about this and has ambitious plans for it, but it is important local authorities be mandated to come on board and to support it with enthusiasm. The Circular Economy, Waste Management (Amendment) and Minerals Development (Amendment) Bill 2022 is very important work, and while there is more to be done on it, it is breakthrough legislation that will, I hope, come to fruition later this year.

I am delighted to have our guests from SEAI in attendance, and in particular Mr. Meally, given we like to see Longford people in key positions. Only last week, Ms Caron McCaffrey appeared before the Joint Committee on Justice. Coincidentally, if Mr. Meally’s parents look out their window, they can see Caron's office in the Irish Prison Service, so it is great to have him here. We are very proud of the work Mr. Meally has done with SEAI. He and his staff have put in Herculean shifts. We are very much in the avant-garde compared with what is being done in Europe, and that came across during his presentation. We are leading the way in many respects in this area. Of course, we will always look for more, and we are here to challenge the SEAI to do more.

Turning to a couple of issues on the periphery, there is a backlog of getting applications and so on through the SEAI. Will our guests speak to the measures they have taken to address that? Can they give me any comfort in regard to what I can say when Mrs. Duignan rings me next week to complain about the length of time she has been waiting?

Mr. Declan Meally

I thank the Deputy for his comments. I am delighted to be here with the committee and, as he said, it is good to see Longford represented.

On the Deputy's initial comments, as I explained, the circular economy and waste and recycling are issues for the EPA but the Deputy may recall that a number of years ago, we sponsored a national competition for communities, Get Involved, and one of the winners was the upcycling centre in Longford, which was excellent in showing what can be done with the recycling of beds and other types of furniture. It is great to see the centre go from strength to strength.

As for the backlog and the waiting list, I presume the Deputy is referring to the better energy, warmer homes scheme in particular. Within that scheme, we have had a doubling of budget this year to allow us to address the backlog. The recent changes to the scheme have seen an increase in the number of applications, but work has been ongoing, as my colleagues addressed in one of the earlier committee meetings, regarding the retrofit and the warmer homes scheme. Much of the work we have been doing has involved working with the contractors to ensure they are getting back into action given, obviously, we were impacted by the Covid over the past two years, which added to the list. In the context of the procurement we carried out, because contractors have been impacted by the price increases, we have done a lot of work within the SEAI to ensure the contractors themselves are geared up and that the maximum number of contractors are out there. We will go through reprocurements and so on as well to ensure we can bring even more of them on board. Much work has been focused specifically on that. More than half of the retrofit budget, or over €100 million, has been given towards the warmer homes scheme. It is a major focus within the organisation, from the CEO down.

The other issue relates to the numbers. We were processing 180 per month last year and have increased that to 400 a month this year in order to tackle the waiting lists. That work is ongoing.

Deputy Joe Flaherty

That is reassuring. There is a strong focus on the retrofitting of local authority houses and the SEAI deals with contractors daily. The anecdotal feedback we are getting suggests the average cost of the retrofitting of a local authority house is in the order of €7,000 above what the local authorities have been approved by the Department. Is the authority bringing pressure to bear on the Department in that regard, or does it have any involvement at that level?

Mr. Declan Meally

There are ongoing discussions, both with our line Department, namely, the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications, and with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. As I said earlier in response to another Deputy, what we see as the Holy Grail is being able to work with local authorities such that we will deal with private homes and local authority homes in the same housing estate and try to get an entire street done. We see that as an opportunity to reduce prices. It is an area on which we are in ongoing discussions, both with the local authorities in order to sense-check their own prices in terms of what is coming back through the schemes, and through working closely with them to ensure we can get better economies of scale.

Deputy Joe Flaherty

In the brief time I have remaining, will Mr. Meally update us on the one-stop shops?

Mr. Declan Meally

The one-stop shops are formally in a registration process at the moment. Within the market on the one-stop shop pilot last year, there were about 19 one-stop shop organisations. They are now going through re-registration, but it is not that they have stopped taking on homes. Four will have been formally registered on the website by next week and more and more will come on stream after they go through the formal registration process. That has not prevented them from taking homes onto their books and developing their pipeline. The formal announcement of the first batch of one-stop shops will be appear on our website next week.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I thank our guests. I will start off on a positive note. The constituency I represent, Cork North-Central, has seen a couple of retrofitting projects over recent years, in Wolfe Tone Street, Allen Square and Harbour View Road, where my father lives and where I come from, in Knocknaheeny, as part of the regeneration plan. People who live in Wolfe Tone Street and Allen Square have stated they have seen a 50% reduction in their energy bills, with a much better quality of life, better heating, constant hot water and solar panels on the roofs. There has been overwhelming positivity from the retrofitting. In the case of my father's house, in Harbour View Road, the entire road was retrofitted. This ties in to the point that was made earlier about joined-up thinking. The majority of the houses in this Knocknaheeny social housing estate, or about 60%, are privately owned.

They were able to manage both the social and private housing together so that virtually everyone was done. One or two decided not to do it, which was their choice. It was a real success story. The problem I have is that there are 10,500 social houses in Cork city alone. At the rate that retrofitting is going on in Cork, it will be decades before the houses are retrofitted.

What we have now is a retrofitting plan that seems to work. Originally, the first set of retrofitting was done in Knocknaheeny under the regeneration plan perhaps ten or 15 years ago. Those houses need to be retrofitted again because the quality and standard of the work was just not up to scratch. At least we have something now that we know is working. However, from a funding point of view, two years ago, Churchfield, an area in my constituency of Cork, was to be retrofitted. It is to be done now this year. I know Covid has caused delays, but it has passed three years. It got the go-ahead three years ago. It takes too much time to get these up and running. I have serious concerns whether the resources are in place. There are many promises around retrofitting. I do not believe the Government is delivering the funding to the SEAI or the local authorities to deliver the amount of retrofitting that needs to be done. That is just the first part. I will come in again. Does Mr. Meally have any thoughts on that?

Mr. Declan Meally

Cork North-Central is very high in terms of our knowledge of the area and the work that is done through north Cork energy partners, NCE, and other works in partnership with the local authorities have been exemplar. The scheme the Deputy mentioned in terms of doing the private and social homes has been excellent and one that we see as ideally to be modelled and reused in other locations by other local authorities. It has been very good and successful in relation to efficiency as well as the end delivery, which we get from the residents themselves.

We understand there is a hill to climb with retrofit. The supply chain is a big issue. It has been identified countless times, and it was reported to the Committee on Environment and Climate Action this morning by my colleagues who are responsible for the retrofit that this area of the supply chain and getting the numbers of contractors and all that on board is an issue. We need 20 or 30 of these organisations, similar to what Cork has, doing that kind of work. The great thing is that are good examples such as that, showing this is how it can work and how it can work on a-----

Deputy Thomas Gould

Mr. Meally touched on-----

Mr. Declan Meally

Just to finish on the question, where the Deputy said the Government has not provided the funding, €8 billion in funding is identified in the national development plan, NDP. The ask from the industry was to tell it that there is money there. The Government commitment through the NDP and the national retrofit plan is that this is what we will do and it is here for the next eight to ten years in relation to an opportunity for local businesses and contractors to get involved in the retrofit game and show they can actually be part of it. They may not be a one-stop shop, but they might be part of one. The plumbers, electricians, plasterers that work under the umbrella of a one-stop shop can come in and work as part of that. We work with the local authorities together on it. The money is there in relation to the signal and under the NDP. The supply chain growth is definitely, without doubt, a challenge. That-----

Deputy Thomas Gould

There is an area in my constituency, Churchfield Avenue, being done. I believe it is about 120 houses. However, that is only a quarter of the estate. Allen Square and Wolfe Tone Street were done, but Mary Aikenhead next door was not. Now there are neighbours with half the energy bills, much better heating and much better quality of life living next to people who do not have it and might not have it for years. We say it is not a funding issue, but if it is not a funding issue, why is the whole of Churchfield not going to be done? There are so many more areas. I am hearing on the ground that Cork City Council has done some very good projects, but there are 10,500 social houses, and that is without even getting into the SEAI scheme.

What I believe and I am seeing on the ground, and I was a councillor for 12 years before I was elected to the Dáil, is that we have been talking retrofitting while there have been people who would have been on me to get their homes retrofitted who are no longer with us. Unfortunately, there are people I am dealing with now who, by the time their houses get done, will probably be no longer with us either. That is not right. The Government needs to be much more supportive and there needs to be more funding for the local authorities.

Then there is the question of it all being contracts. A decision was taken over the lifetime of recent governments to privatise work that local authorities are doing. We should have our own local authority plumbers, carpenters and masons. We should have our own people to do solar panels, retrofitting and insulations. Relying on contractors is an issue. I came from a working-class area and I know loads of guys who can earn more money without being involved in these schemes, and instead work on new constructions, whether it is building new houses or extensions. Therefore, if we are waiting on contractors, we are in the height of trouble.

Mr. Declan Meally

On the Deputy’s point on the local authorities and the skills and opportunity within them, maybe it is something the local authorities can look at. By the time they would be involved and trained up, however, perhaps a number of years would be lost.

The local authority budget comes from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and is not something that is funded through us. Going back to the example the Deputy gave where we are doing private homes alongside local authority homes with combined budgets, that is definitely a solution and a way to go forward. It is a challenge. I understand the numbers of homes the Deputy is saying we have to address, which is a national challenge. However, there are opportunities for us to grow on that, and that is what we have seen and certainly encouraged. Even with the grants that were launched recently, there is a large number of people who want to get involved. Word of mouth has spread that this is a very good opportunity to go for.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I will come back in again, if that is okay.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Francis Noel Duffy)

I have some follow-up questions. On the green procurement group, I have been chasing the green public procurement policy and I have spoken to Ciarán Cuffe and Robert Watt over the years about it about it as well. It does not seem to be anywhere. There is a draft somewhere. Is that group a public committee? Has it published any reports?

Mr. Declan Meally

It is a committee that is made up of all the different representative organisations. It is a formal mandate on it. I will have to check in terms of what reports might have come out. I do not have more up-to-date information other than it is meeting on a-----

Acting Chairman (Deputy Francis Noel Duffy)

Is Mr. Meally a member? Is it public knowledge who the members are?

Mr. Declan Meally

Yes, it would be, in terms of who across the different organisations would be represented on it. I am assuming that is the case. We have a representative from our own organisation who sits in it as well.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Francis Noel Duffy)

I will have a look. My other question arises from the briefing I had from the Department of Housing, Government and Local Heritage. I know it is not fully Mr. Meally’s bailiwick, so I am asking his opinion in the context of levels and the EU implementing the carbon targets and whether they will be A- or B-rated. I know that is out there because I am working on buildings where we are trying to do a proof of concept building to find out where it is. While it will be difficult to get it A-rated, we think we can. In that, the message I got from the Department was that it will not be doing anything until 2025.

I am actually working on a building where we have a mechanical and engineering company that is processing the embodied carbon of the building through levels, through a software package called One Click LCA, which brings in all of the environmental product declarations, EPD, data and we are able to cost that environmentally. What I find odd and what I do not understand is why the State is not doing anything.

I know it is not SEAI's remit but why are we not moving forward like other countries? I heard that one pilot is happening. I was not aware of it. I have been arguing for quite a few years that the State should pilot building because from the research I have done, I know that if you do not know how to build it, people will not experiment. You are lucky if you have a client who wants to experiment. Is there any reason why we are waiting? That is three years away. I would often promote the fact that Ireland probably has the best operational energy regulations on the planet. We are very close to having the best. Is there any reason for our stalling?

Ms Orla Coyle

The methodology that is there is what is proposed under the energy performance of buildings directive. We have been tasked with developing that calculation methodology or the associated software, which is where 2025 comes in because that is the timeline set out in the climate action plan for SEAI. A possible reason for the delay is the fact that under EU legislation, the construction product database is being reviewed. As part of that construction product database, there is talk of including an environmental certificate associated with it. The concern is that if Europe goes with a different certification scheme from the one we will use - I know a number of voluntary schemes are in place for carrying out life cycle assessments and embodied carbon calculations - and we developed something that was counter-intuitive to what was done in Europe, it could have an impact. We are waiting to see what is coming down the tracks in terms of the construction product database because we want harmonisation across Europe. We have had similar issues with the BER scheme where you might have a product that previously would not have been accounted for under the directive. We are looking for the test certificate that is in compliance with the eco-design directive. You get people who are then trying to sell their product in Ireland and we are saying we cannot take it because we want it as per the European directive, so we need to get that harmonisation right. This is why there has been a delay. We are trying to see what happens with the construction product database and what the regulatory changes will be.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Francis Noel Duffy)

Is there any sight of when this will happen? I had this conversation with the Department at least a year ago.

Ms Orla Coyle

I can tell the Deputy that the Department is pushing its European colleagues to get it processed.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Francis Noel Duffy)

There are more than 500 million people living in Europe. I know the process of assimilating over 20 countries into one process is happening but my understanding is that we decide what way we implement directives. Is that not correct?

Ms Orla Coyle

Yes, it is. We take that information. I am not 100% familiar with the construction product database. For example, in the case of a heat pump, someone would have come to us and said he or she wanted to use it in a BER assessment. What happens in that case is that we will ask it whether it has been tested to the eco-design. In one case, the answer was "No" because it was slightly different from the heat pumps that are tested to the eco-design but we must still have them on a level playing field with all the other heat pumps sold in the country. We must then get them to try to achieve the same level or standard or an equivalent standard. When somebody with a product on sale in Europe comes into Ireland, we get it to test to a completely different standard. It is about trying to get that harmonisation in the standards to which the construction product will be tested.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Francis Noel Duffy)

It concerns environmental product declarations. Are the EPDs not universal and specific to a material?

Ms Orla Coyle

That is the ongoing conversation about construction products.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Francis Noel Duffy)

I get it as regards a machine. I might come back on this if that is okay.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

The responses have been very interesting. I am feeling slightly awkward because some of my questions are probably more for the Department, which is not represented. I do not want to ask the witnesses from SEAI questions about matters that are outside its remit but I also do not want to ask questions that repeat what their colleagues have told our colleagues in the other committee today. I will run through some of these questions and ask the witnesses to share whatever knowledge they have with us. For those of us who have been on this committee for long time, tackling the housing crisis was our big priority for a number of years. It was all about the number of units. Thankfully, most of us have shifted and it is no longer just about the number of units but the quality, energy efficiency and carbon output of the units.

Since we have not been involved in the finer details of the Oireachtas Committee on Environment and Climate Action, some of us are still trying to work out what sectoral carbon budgets would look like in real life. Are the witnesses in a position to give the committee any insight? I do not really want to know what the targets are going to be. They will be decided by Government, which will announce them on the basis of advice from many organisations, including SEAI. Could the witnesses from the SEAI explain what this new process will look like in plain English for regular folks like us? I am of the view that it will fundamentally change the way people like us have been doing our work up to now and the better we understand that process, the more we can be properly informed. If there is any information the witnesses from the SEAI can share with us, it would be really helpful.

I understand fully the need for European-wide consistency, particularly given that so many of our construction industry inputs are produced here. That makes complete sense. There are some really simple things. We know there are new technologies to produce lower carbon cement, concrete and brick. We know that it costs roughly the same amount of money and that concrete producers in Ireland have technologies to do both. In the same way that we had a phase-out of gas boilers in houses from 2025 under nearly zero energy building, NZEB, we need to start having public conversations on the fact that we have the technology for lower carbon cement and concrete in this country and it costs the same. Given that fact, should we not be looking for an accelerated phase-out of higher carbon concrete? Is this part of the discussions in which SEAI is involved or the witnesses from SEAI are hearing from colleagues in terms of embodied carbon? The reason I ask is that I agree it would be much better to use as many of the existing buildings as possible and repurpose, refurbish and retrofit and, where that is not possible, to re-use materials.

We also know what the Government's targets are. The Government's housing plan talks about around 2,500 vacant and derelict units being brought back into stock through compulsory purchase orders, CPOs, by local authorities over the next four to five years. There is talk of using another mechanism called Croí Cónaithe towns to get access to some vacant units but there is no real target yet. On the basis of the targets in front of us, there will be nowhere near as many repurposed vacant and derelict properties as SEAI or many members would like. For this reason, whatever the number of new builds, we need to try to reduce the embodied carbon in them. What are the witnesses' thoughts on the issues around cement and phasing out higher carbon concrete and cement?

Likewise with timber, Deputy Duffy, who has a master's degree in architecture and timber construction, and I have had a lot of conversations. For five or six years, the Government has spoken about promoting new construction technologies and modern methods of construction. A small number of companies produce very high-quality products here with embedded and NZEB passive and passive plus products but despite all the talk and hard work of a small number of people in industry, very little has been done on scale. Again, I invite the witnesses from SEAI to express their views, concerns and frustrations about any of that if they are in a position to do so.

I have a particular, some would say obsessive, interest in building control. We must have really good building regulations. Our problem concerns monitoring and enforcing them. The NZEB regulations came in for public and private buildings but I am still very confused as to how we are adequately monitoring them. There is ping-pong between the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications and the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage on which one is monitoring them. Of course, we were told it would be a matter for assigned certifiers and building control. Is anybody keeping an eye on the NZEB portion in terms of compliance separate from ordinary building control?

Is anybody looking at that? Is it all going fine? Are there concerns, etc?

Last, on the targets, a recent parliamentary question to the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications asked the number of successful applicants to the warmer homes scheme who have been waiting more than two years. I have heard everything the SEAI has said on the increased budgets and the work they are doing do with contractors, which is welcome. Obviously, there will be a clearing of the backlog and then there will be the new entrants to the scheme. Can the witnesses give us a little bit more detail about how they hope to clear that backlog of 7,000 applicants? This is if the SEAI has that information to hand. If they do not, I can take it from the minutes of the other relevant committee. We are all keen to see that work happen as speedily as possible. Therefore, it is not just about meeting this year's targets, but last year’s, and the years before that fell short. Can we meet and then accelerate the targets, so that we can catch up over a couple of years? Does that make sense as a question?

Mr. Declan Meally

I think there are four or five pieces to that contribution. Insofar as I can, I will address some of the general points. I might let Ms Coyle take the nearly zero energy building, NZEB, piece.

First, the Deputy is speaking about the sectoral targets and the processes. We collect the energy data from the top down from both public sector and large industry. We feed it into our Energy in Ireland report each year. We feed that into the EPA, whose staff will then compile the emissions. They will then work with the Department to look at the sectoral budgets. Our big focus straight away is the energy emissions in transport and heating systems in residences. That is why electric cars and home retrofits are the big focus.

Below that, then we are getting into smaller users of energy. Obviously, we will look at the decarbonisation of the public sector and the commercial side of it. One of the smallest energy users is agriculture. Yet, its emissions in other areas will be looked at.

We feed in the energy projections and the energy information. That will go into the Department to look at how that works and how that will feed into the overall carbon budgets. The Deputy is right. It will fundamentally change how the people will appreciate it when we talk about “a budget”. It will change how they look at things and how they consider, “What is my budget?”, as well as whether the budget is in the enterprise sector or in the public sector. It will give a whole new focus to the area. As I said, in our space, we are feeding the energy projections into that and working on them.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

I have a very basic question. It is not even about the individual sectoral targets. For many of us who do not spend the vast majority of our working time dealing with, for example, climate and emissions reductions, when we hear words such as “budget”, we think of financial budgets. We think of the allocation of money and how that money is divvied out among a set of State agencies, who then spend it.

My question is more to try to conceptually understand how there will be a macro target. There will be sectoral targets. How will they then relate to the work of Government, Departments, agencies like the SEAI, and other third actors, public or private? It is just trying to understand that, even without reference to any particular sector. An agency like the SEAI, which is involved in this every day, probably has a better conceptual understanding of how that will be shaped or what it will look like.

Mr. Declan Meally

It is a work in progress. We do have any of the details on some of the ongoing discussions. That will be part of the work over this year and over the next couple of months in talking it through. I do not have the visibility below that. As I said, we are feeding in on how we would work through it. They will be allocated their budget and will have to work to that. Is it a five-year budget? Is it a three-year budget? Those kinds of things obviously have to be worked out. Is it by the overall sector or is it by individual organisation? Those things will be worked out generally. In the public sector I think it will be one budget overall. Then it will be divvied out over time. However, it is a work in progress, so I do not have any more detail than that.

Regarding the Deputy’s next part on the opportunities around cement and concrete, there are a number of opportunities. There is low-emissions cement and lower-emissions cement. These can be considered in specific construction areas. There are also case studies where there could be too much cement used. There may be better ways and tighter specifications on cement and concrete being used there. This goes back to the education of those who are creating specifications through green procurement, and for procurement that sets out those parameters. As the Deputy said, in some cases, there is an opportunity where a lower-emissions cement can be used, because of the opportunities around it. There could be brittleness, etc. There are different characteristics. However, there is no doubt that it can be brought into the procurement piece and specifically specified in respect of new buildings. However, again, our piece will still be to push for as much retrofit as possible.

The Deputy talks about the use of timber in promoting the modern methods of construction. A group has been chaired and brought together under the Department of Expenditure and Reform-----

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Is that a working group?

Mr. Declan Meally

Yes. Enterprise Ireland has now done much in that area. They have exemplar areas. They are looking at setting up the centres of excellence in this area. They have done much work on the timber side of it. There is quite a bit happening on that. I just recently joined the committees on it. I was surprised that quite a bit of work has been done over the past 18 months.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

The frustrating thing on that, and Mr. Meally is exactly right, is really substantial work on that and some weighty work. It has now reached a point however where to get it to the next level it will require much bigger push from the political sides. That is where the frustration is. I just acknowledge that.

Mr. Declan Meally

There is real opportunity in that area in the industry and in the enterprise agency. Would Ms Coyle like to take the question on NZEB and building control?

Ms Orla Coyle

Obviously, building control is responsible for compliance with building regulations. However, we have worked with our colleagues in the national building control office how to demonstrate NZEB through the calculation methodology used for a BER assessment. We have strengthened the report that gets published from the BER process so that it is watermarked and is linked to a BER assessment. This is so that the building control officer can say, “Yes, that is a published BER”. Then, when we link that back to the BER side we have a rigorous group quality assurance, QA, process on our BERs. We go out to the homes or to the buildings and make sure that all the inputs are accurate and that they reflect what is happening. We have that link.

We improved the output from the BER software so that the building control officer could link it back to a BER assessment and so that they now know that that is a published BER. It is then audited as a separate side.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Does that mean that if an enterprising Deputy was to ask the national building control office, for example, for State-wide data on levels of compliance with NZEB for new builds, it might be possible to get a sense of how good the picture is?

Ms Orla Coyle

I do not know. When they get the report, they will get a printout. When someone is submitting a compliance report they can ask for report that is printed out from the BER assessment. They will be able to say that that is a published BER. What we found previously in our conversations with the office's staff is that they were getting reports that might not have related to a BER that was published. Therefore, then there was no check on that BER. We had additional step. That was the work we do with the national building control office.

Mr. Declan Meally

Finally, the Deputy just mentioned the waiting list. Our colleagues this morning provided quite a comprehensive piece. As I responded to Deputy Flaherty, we were on 180 homes per month last year. It has gone up to 400 homes per month that we are dealing with this year. This is getting through the backlog. I defer to the work that they have been doing. There is much work that has been going on behind the scenes. They gave much more detail to the committee on that.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

I will double-check and I do not want to waste the authority’s time. Just so I am clear on the figures, that difference in the figures is 180 to 400. Does that figure relate to contractors on-site? Or does it relate to the number of homes being processed?

Mr. Declan Meally

It refers to the number of homes being processed. It refers to working it through.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

My apologies; I have to leave to go to the Dáil Chamber, where Second Stage of the Electoral Reform Bill 2022 is beginning.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Francis Noel Duffy)

On CEM III, which is ground granulated blastfurnace slag, GGBS, cement, my understanding from the State architect, Mr. Ciarán O'Connor, is there is only 18% of it available on the planet because it is a by-product of the steel industry. One would never get 100% CEM III; one would only ever get 20%. We could probably get more because we are a small country, but in this context one is locked in. It is about reducing the use of concrete and using other methodologies of construction.

I refer to Deputy Ó Broin's remarks on post-occupancy testing. There is a system in Australia under which the rating is done one year after occupancy. Many of the corporates are pushing in that regard. It is a six-star system.

Ms Orla Coyle

Yes. It is the national Australian built environment rating system, NABERS.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Francis Noel Duffy)

I cannot imagine such a system being brought in here but it seems like a good idea for the building to be tested post occupancy and it to be ascertained whether the BER has been attained. Such a system puts it up to the builders. Currently is it all done pre-occupancy?

Ms Orla Coyle

We have display energy certificates, DECs, at the moment, which are based on operational energy. The Acting Chairman referenced the London borough-----

Acting Chairman (Deputy Francis Noel Duffy)

Yes, the London energy transformation initiative.

Ms Orla Coyle

It requires publication of the BER to begin with and one then goes back and publishes the DEC one year thereafter. That facilitates consideration of the operational performance as compared with-----

Acting Chairman (Deputy Francis Noel Duffy)

The predicted rating.

Ms Orla Coyle

Yes, the acid rating that would be put on it in terms of BER. That is something we have considered. The SEAI has a monitoring and reporting system that we use for public sector bodies, under which they report all their energy consumption. We are developing that to bring it down to building level. We are starting to pilot it this year. We will be looking at it on a building level so that we will know the exact energy for each public sector building rather than as an entity. At the moment, we have some building-level data but much of it is at a sectoral or departmental level. We are seeking to develop it to track the operational performance at a building level.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Francis Noel Duffy)

South Dublin County Council was quite proud to report to us that it was pulling down its buildings' operation energy when I was on the council. There was a building on Baggot Street that was famous for its energy per square metre. As architects, we were told to have a look at the rating because it was massive. It was 600 kWh or 700 kWh per sq. m. It was through the roof. The rating was seen as a bit of a joke but that level of energy consumption does exist.

Ms Orla Coyle

It is worth noting that it the energy performance of buildings directive makes reference to that operational side as well, and looking at metered information. As the Acting Chairman stated, in London one has to go back and complete and publish a display energy certificate a year afterwards.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I know I am going off on a bit of a tangent, but a road in my constituency that was resurfaced recently is also down for traffic calming measures. There were two separate budgets. A road on a housing estate was resurfaced, with speed ramps to be installed there 12 months later. I refer to the carbon footprint that is being caused by the initial resurfacing and doing jobs twice. All Departments and local authorities must be responsible and not waste resources on double-jobbing, with the consequent impact that has on the environment and our carbon footprint.

That came to mind when Deputy Ó Broin referred to the fact that there are between 70,000 and 98,000 vacant properties in the State. The Government missed an opportunity to tackle this problem when it dealt with vacancy recently. There are vacant buildings all over my constituency. Mr. Meally referred to this earlier. Local authorities should go in to retrofit those properties and turn them around so that they can be used for housing, or funding should be provided to housing agencies so they can do so. We are talking about our carbon footprint and carbon budgets but there are between 70,000 and 98,000 vacant properties. The census carried out last Sunday will provide a lot of good data. We know this is an issue in every village, town and city in every constituency. Mr. Meally referred to vacant properties and shops and what have you. We have been talking about it for ten years. Cork City Council was talking about it 15 years ago. Here we are now. There are people talking about problems with insurance, deeds and fire safety certificates.

Mr. Meally stated that in some ways Ireland is leading the way and that we are leaders in terms of some of the work we are doing here. In the context of the report published yesterday on global warming and where we are in the context of climate change, if Ireland is leading the way, the world is in big trouble. That is putting it politely. From where I am sitting, Ireland is not leading the way. We might have a couple of good ideas and projects but on the greater scale of things and in the context of delivery, we have a housing crisis and a climate crisis. If we sort out derelict buildings and vacant properties, that will help to solve the housing crisis. It is a win for everyone. I have been raising this for two years here with the Minister and the Department. I raised it for 13 years before that as a councillor. In 2009, I made my maiden speech on Cork City Council on the issue of the housing crisis and I was laughed at. We are now in 2022, 13 years later, and the crisis is much worse. Mr. Meally referred to vacant properties. I do not believe enough is being done. I attend the meetings here and I do work on the ground. I do not see enough being done in respect of vacancy, trying to retrofit vacant properties and providing funding for local authorities to issue compulsory purchase orders, CPOs, for these properties and then retrofit them. The Government recently published a Bill. To me, that Bill was not alone a missed opportunity; it was a disaster for both the climate and housing.

Mr. Declan Meally

The Deputy made several points but the fundamental one is that the world is in trouble. That is evident from the report to which he referred that was published today. I refer to there being three years in terms of whether we do something in respect of moving. We have to fundamentally rethink how we live and operate and how we use energy across the board, including how we heat our homes, move around and generate electricity. We have reached a point where we have to put every shoulder to the wheel to understand how we are actually going to do this.

I am totally behind what the Deputy has said in respect of vacant properties and using town centres. Having people living in town centres brings life in those communities and cuts down on people's need to use cars to move around as they can walk to schools and all that. It will not happen overnight but we now know clearly that we are running out of time for what we need to do. We cannot just keep doing things the way we have been doing them. I totally agree with the points made by the Deputy. Everybody, including local authorities and others, will have to start thinking together and joining the dots. As he stated, there should be no double-jobbing. We should not be looking at creating urban sprawl and building more out further so that more cars are needed and services have to be run to those places. We have to change our thinking right across the board. There is a significant opportunity, in the context of embodied carbon if nothing else, to get people living in towns and villages, particularly with the advent of working from home.

That is a fundamental opportunity. It will challenge our thinking in the context of those who want a house on their own plot out in the countryside. We will have to rethink what we are doing.

Deputy Thomas Gould

My apologies, but I am needed in the Dáil Chamber. I thank our guests. I appreciate their contributions and enjoyed reading the report. Maybe "enjoyed" is not the right word, but it made for interesting reading.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Francis Noel Duffy)

It has been a constructive meeting. The committee stands adjourned until 1.30 p.m. on Thursday, 7 April 2022. I thank our guests.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.10 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Thursday, 7 April 2022.