Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage debate -
Tuesday, 2 Jul 2024

Residential Tenancies Board: Discussion

An Cathaoirleach

I welcome everybody to this meeting with the Residential Tenancies Board, RTB. From the board, I welcome Mr. Owen Keegan, interim director, Ms Louise Loughlin, deputy director, and Ms Lucia Crimin, deputy director. The relevant papers have been circulated to members.

Before we proceed to the discussion with the Residential Tenancies Board, we have a little committee business to deal with. Members will be aware that we were issued a briefing note and a request to waive pre-legislative scrutiny on the Residential Tenancies (Amendment) Bill 2024, which predominantly relates to student accommodation. We received a written briefing on that. I propose that the committee agrees to waive pre-legislative scrutiny on the Residential Tenancies (Amendment) Bill 2024. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Senator Victor Boyhan

Before we do that, I would like to thank the officials. I am conscious that we are in something of a bubble in here but there are people listening in. We had a briefing with officials from the Department. We teased out bits and pieces. There were questions and answers. There was some discussion. It is not a blank cheque. We discussed it and I thank the officials. It is important that we acknowledge that we had that engagement on the Bill and thank them for that.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Senator Boyhan. That is an important point. We can now inform the Minister and the Department that we have agreed to waive pre-legislative scrutiny.

I will read a quick note on privilege before we begin. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the place where Parliament has chosen to sit, namely Leinster House, in order to participate in public meetings. Witnesses who are attending in the committee room are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their contributions at today's meeting. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. Both members and witnesses are expected not to abuse the privilege they enjoy. It is my duty as Chair to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if people's statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I invite Mr. Keegan to make his opening statement.

Mr. Owen Keegan

I thank the Chair and members for the invitation to attend. I am Owen Keegan, interim director of the RTB. I am accompanied by my colleagues Ms Louise Loughlin and Ms Lucia Crimin, both deputy directors at the board. We will be very happy to answer members' questions, but first I would like to read a short opening statement and respond to the specific issues raised in the committee's letter of invitation.

The RTB was established under the Residential Tenancies Act 2004. It is an independent public body operating under the aegis of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. The role of the RTB covers four key areas. The first is to maintain a register of private, approved housing body, student-specific accommodation and cost-rental tenancies. The second is to provide a dispute resolution service, primarily for landlords and tenants. The third is to ensure compliance with rental law. The fourth is to provide information, research, data, insights, and policy advice on the rental market.

The RTB is in a unique position to discharge its data-related functions, as it holds a comprehensive rental database and other relevant information, which it collects primarily through the annual registration of tenancies. The RTB uses this data and information to promote a better understanding of the rental sector, monitor trends, assess their impacts, and inform policy and outcomes based on evidence. Key RTB research publications include the RTB Rent Index, the Quarterly Data Bulletin and the Tenant Research Survey. In addition, the RTB's interactive research and data hub provides the public with access to a wide range of data collected by the RTB.

By the end of this month, we plan to publish a new detailed data series on the profile of the RTB register, with details of the number of registered tenancies at the end of each quarter, from the second quarter of 2023 onwards and relevant breakdowns, by area, dwelling type, number of bedrooms and number of occupants, as well as details of landlords by size. We are very happy to discuss all the proposals we have for new analysis and research on the rented sector of the housing market.

I will now comment briefly on the specific issues raised in the committee's letter of invitation. The first is the RTB registration process and IT system. A key regulatory function of the RTB is the maintenance of an accurate register of non-local authority residential tenancies. Since April 2022, landlords have been required to renew the registration of their tenancies on an annual basis. To facilitate annual registration and to provide new functionality and improved customer service, the RTB redesigned its registration process in 2021 and introduced a new computer system. During 2022, issues with system performance that caused serious difficulty for landlords seeking to register their tenancies arose. Over the past two years, we have worked hard to stabilise the system and we have introduced changes to improve the customer experience and our data quality.

The board of the RTB recently gave outline approval for a further investment programme, which is intended to systematically upgrade our existing ICT systems in order to address current system deficiencies, to improve efficiency, to enhance security and provide a better service to RTB customers. In May, the RTB introduced a new virtual agent webchat service. Feedback from stakeholders and the public so far is positive.

The second issue the committee raised is the difference between RTB data and Central Statistics Office, CSO, data. In October 2023, the RTB appeared before this committee, along with the CSO, to discuss the apparent difference between RTB published figures on the number of registered private tenancies and the CSO figure from the 2022 census on the number of households in private rented accommodation. Both organisations have engaged on the matter since then and, as I advised the committee, the CSO is finalising a report on the difference between the two data sets, which I understand will be published before the end of July.

The third issue is the implementation of rent pressure zones, RPZs. These zones are intended to cap rent increases in certain areas designated by the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage and were introduced in 2016. The relevant legislation also provides for certain exemptions from the RPZ requirements. Since their introduction, the caps on rent increases have been changed on several occasions. Currently, rents in an RPZ cannot be increased by more than 2% per annum pro rata or if it is lower, by the increase in the rate of inflation as recorded by the harmonised index of consumer prices, HICP. This restriction applies to new and existing tenancies in RPZs where an exemption does not apply.

The RTB has two roles in relation to RPZs. First, for an area to be designated an RPZ, certain rent increase criteria must be met. The RTB's quarterly new tenancy rent index is used to assess areas against these criteria. Second, the RTB investigates potential breaches by landlords of RPZ rules.

The fourth and final area is enforcement. The RTB supports compliance through information provision and by processes designed to make compliance as straightforward as possible. The RTB is committed to ensuring that non-compliant landlords are identified and held to account and do not continue to undermine public confidence in the operation of the residential rental sector. The main areas of RTB enforcement activity are as follows. The first is improper conducts. Under the Act, the responsibility for compliance with rental law lies principally with landlords. Once a tenancy comes into effect, the landlord must abide by the rental rules and requirements as set out in the Act. Most landlords comply with their responsibilities in a timely manner. In cases where voluntary compliance is not forthcoming or where there are clear and serious breaches of rental law, the RTB has powers to investigate and sanction landlords who commit certain breaches of rental law called "improper conducts", as defined in the Act. I have listed out five or six improper conducts in the statement. Sanctions for improper conduct may include a written caution, a fine of up to €15,000 and costs of up to €15,000, or both. Income from all monetary sanctions is transferred by the RTB to the Exchequer.

The second area of enforcement in which we are involved is prosecutions. Under the Act, the RTB can prosecute a person or persons who do not comply with their responsibility to register their tenancy or tenancies. If convicted, individuals face a fine of up to €4,000, six months of imprisonment, or both. The RTB invokes formal compliance action in those cases where this is in the public interest. In keeping with our policy to support compliance, the RTB writes to landlords where non-registration is suspected and gives the landlord a reasonable opportunity to comply before any prosecution is initiated.

The final area of enforcement relates to enforcement of determination orders. When landlords, tenants or third parties access the RTB dispute resolution service through mediation, adjudication or the tenancy tribunal, they generally receive a legally binding determination order. When non-compliance with a determination order is reported, the RTB can assist parties seeking compliance by facilitating the party in pursuing their own order enforcement proceedings in the District Court or by directly assisting the party by funding a solicitor to pursue the order enforcement proceedings in the District Court on their behalf. Detailed information on all our enforcement activity is set out in the RTB’s annual report. Our annual report is due to be published this week. My intention is to circulate copies to all members.

The RTB has a key role in ensuring the effective operation of the rental sector. Members will appreciate that this sector of the housing market has been under intense pressure over recent years. This, in turn, has generated increased demand for RTB services. The RTB is effective in fulfilling its role. I accept, however, that there is room for improvement across all of our service areas. The board and executive of the RTB are fully committed to delivering the required improvements with the support of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. These improvements are set out in our 2023-25 statement of strategy. We are happy to take questions.

The RTB has a key role in ensuring the efffective operation of the rental sector. Member will appreciate that this sector of the housing market has bene under intesene pressure over recent years. This, in turn, has generated increased demand for RTB services. The RTB is effective in fulfilling its role. I accept, however, that there is romo for improvement across all of our services areas. The board and executive of the RTB are fully committed to deliverying the required improvements with the support of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Hertigate. These improvements are set out inour stemenbt of strategy 2023-2

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

I thank Mr. Keegan, Ms Crimin and Ms Loughlin for coming to the committee today and for their work and the reports they produce. I thank all staff at the RTB. Mr. Keegan said the RTB has an important role in the private rental sector, which it does. There is an increasing reliance on the RTB to be efficient, accessible and robust in the performance of its duties. He mentioned in his opening statement the challenges that clients and customers of the RTB have experienced over previous years in engaging with the RTB and its processes. I think he specifically referenced that in May of this year the board signed off on an IT upgrade. Will Mr. Keegan talk us through what exactly that IT upgrade is designed to deliver in improvements to the user experience?

Mr. Owen Keegan

I was not around at the time but the RTB commissioned a new ICT system in 2017. It probably came online in 2021. The reality is there were major issues with the system and it never achieved the targeted level of functionality. Tremendous work had to be done, particularly by my colleagues, to get a minimal level of service. We need to revisit the system and get the full range of functionality. Part of this is to improve the customer experience, which is not at an acceptable level. While the system has greatly improved on what it was, we need to invest in it. There are issues such as the bulk uploading of renewals and restrictions on the number of properties people can pay for. There are many minor issues which customers find quite frustrating. The customer experience is not what would be expected from a public body. There are plans afoot to address these omissions.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

The question users have is why it is taking so long. The IT system was introduced in 2017 and it was recognised in 2021 there were problems. In May 2024, three years later, the board approved significant investment. I presume the investment is significant and the witnesses might advise the committee how much the budget is. Will they share with us why it has taken so long?

Mr. Owen Keegan

I have clearly failed to convey the amount of work that had been done to resurrect the system. At the time we had to deal with annual registration and the system simply was not fit for purpose.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

Has the RTB changed vendor? Has it gone to a new and different platform?

Mr. Owen Keegan

That vendor is no longer working with us. I was not around at the time but a decision was made to persist with the vendor. In hindsight, that might not have been the best decision. A large amount of work has been done by the RTB to get a system that is functioning. We recognise that it is not quite where it needs to be. The value of the programme is approximately €1.5 million. This will be implemented over the next six months to a year. I believe this will address all of the outstanding issues. A large amount has been done over the past 18 months to improve the customer experience and the functionality of the system. It is just not quite where it needs to be.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

Everybody would accept that it is certainly very challenging for everybody at the RTB and challenging for everybody trying to use the system. The RTB has not shied away from this. I have never heard the RTB shy away from it. Has the RTB gone with a completely new supplier?

Mr. Owen Keegan

We have a new vendor on board for a few months and it is working quite well. We have to go out to the market again and there are procurement issues, as always. The board has approved it and the finances are in position. There is a commitment to deliver on the required changes and the final upgrade of the system.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

Is there a timeline associated with this new contract with the new supplier as to when it can be expected to have all of this new functionality and improvement in place and operational?

Mr. Owen Keegan

It will take a bit of time. We are very conscious we have to keep operating business as usual. Over the next six to 12 months we will see further improvements in the system. It will be done on an incremental basis.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

How will it be measured?

Mr. Owen Keegan

It will be measured primarily because those customers having difficulty, and a proportion of customers are still having difficulty navigating the system through no fault of their own, will find it is a much easier system. There are parts of the system we were never able to stand up, such as the disputes module which was never fully developed. It will be developed out so we will have a much better online presence in terms of people submitting disputes. There are many security issues. The system is greatly improved on what it was but it is not quite there. Over the next six months to a year I hope the RTB will get there.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

The improvements will affect not only the registration process, as Mr. Keegan has alluded to the dispute process becoming more streamlined.

Mr. Owen Keegan

Yes.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

Is it fair to say the expectation is that the timelines will reduce for registering and having disputes actioned and resolved?

Mr. Owen Keegan

They are two separate issues.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

I appreciate they are two separate issues.

Mr. Owen Keegan

We have plans for the dispute resolution. The IT system will help. I will ask Ms Loughlin to deal with this question.

Ms Louise Loughlin

On the IT side of it, with the disputes, that is a system that kind of requires to be built. The code was developed quite substantially back in 2017-18. We have done some analysis of that over the past few months. That analysis is not yet complete. When it is complete, we will be able to ascertain whether we can resurrect the work that was done or whether we need to look at doing something else, or what needs to be done to mobilise that system for disputes. I cannot answer that question per se at the moment. What I can say is that we are in the process of making some other changes on the system we currently use in disputes, which is the original system, on which we are still dependent, in order to improve the customer service aspect of things for customers of the RTB. It is connected in a way with the processing times for disputes because, obviously, if an IT system is not fully optimised, it inevitably takes longer. There are other things in respect of which we can go into more detail on operational changes we are making to disputes to improve the customer experience, to look at the processing times. I think they will have an impact. We have stood that up now, but it will take time to really see improvements. Realistically, to see those processing times come down, I think we will probably be into quarter 1 of next year. We have had a disputes improvement programme stood up since the start of this year. We have had the support of our colleagues in the Department with new resources and new case officers for the RTB in disputes to address their increased number. There has been a significant increase in applications for our dispute resolution service. As Senator Fitzpatrick will know, with any public service that is demand-led, there is always a bit of catch-up because it is always hard to make the case that you think you will be busier, so it is always harder to secure new resources until you actually hit the higher numbers. That has always been my experience in the public service. There is a bit of that. We do have the additional resources now but they came on stream in March and April, and it takes a good while for that to feed through into addressing the processing times. There are a multitude of things going on in disputes to improve the service, some of which are IT-related and others which relate to other aspects of the service.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

I thank Ms Loughlin. What is the average dispute processing time?

Ms Louise Loughlin

As Mr. Keegan mentioned, we will publish the annual report this week. I can tell the Senator from the 2023 figures that the average processing time varies across the different types of dispute, whether it is an adjudication or mediation. The average number of weeks for an adjudication was approximately 22 for 2023; for a tribunal it was around 29; and for mediation it was about 9.3. If we look back to Covid times, in 2020, it was around 9.1 weeks for mediation. Now it is 9.33, so mediation remains the fastest service. Those are the times for 2023, and members will see those when they are published in the report.

An Cathaoirleach

I move on now to Deputy Ó Broin.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

I thank Mr. Keegan and his team for the presentation. I acknowledge the very significant amount of information that the team at the RTB provides when many of us ask for it, both through the online system and over the phone. I acknowledge that because I know folks are very busy. It is greatly appreciated. It will probably be a pity that we do not have the annual report before the meeting because in some senses we will spend a lot of time asking for information and it would have been great if even some of that information could have been given in summary form in the written statement. That has happened previously. I say that just for the future.

I have seven specific questions. I will just rattle through them. Other members will probably come back then as to why it is like that. I will focus on how things are at the moment.

I apologise. Unfortunately, I have a clash straight after this so I will have to dash. Normally, I am one of the last men standing and I would keep Mr. Keegan here until the end to ensure we got our money's worth. He will get off a bit lighter today because of that.

Senator John Cummins

I will keep him here.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Senator Cummins will keep him here as long as he can. We are normally a tag team.

First of all, can the witnesses give us any further information as to where things are with the CSO and the RTB in terms of the correlation or the gap between the two sets of figures? I know one is registrations and the other is declarations in the census.

Can the witnesses tell those of us who are too impatient to wait for the publication of the research anything else? Likewise, are they in a position to tell us the total number of registrations as of the end of 2023? That is really important information. If the witnesses could share it with us today, I would appreciate it.

With respect to determination timelines, the 22 and 29 weeks in particular are very concerning. A lot of cases that end up in adjudication start in mediation so, in many cases, the nine weeks has to be added to the 22 weeks before a decision is reached. Will the witnesses put into the public domain any additional information on the types of cases that are taking longer?

On enforcement, I have sent the RTB a long and detailed question. Can the witnesses share any information with the committee as to the level of complaints, particularly with regard to RTB breaches and non-registration of tenancies, the investigations into such matters it has initiated itself and the current levels of enforcement? Is there any update on the progress in respect of approved housing bodies and bulk registration?

With respect to adjudicators, will the witnesses give us a little bit of information on the current practice in appointing and recruiting adjudicators, the level of training provided and so on? One of the kinds of cases that takes longer than others in respect of adjudication is those that deal with very complex allegations of antisocial behaviour or complex behaviour on the part of tenants. There are important issues regarding the training of adjudicators. Any information on that would be greatly appreciated.

Ms Lucia Crimin

If it is okay with the Deputy and the Chair, I will group together the matters I am able to answer on and then pass to Ms Loughlin to deal with the others. On the Deputy's question about the CSO, he said that he was impatient. We are also impatient. What I can say is that we are very happy with the process and the working relationship with the CSO. We are very confident in the analysis that has been ongoing over the last year. It goes without saying that it is very important that this analysis is conducted very carefully to be fair to the market, the public, the CSO and the RTB. We are going to have to wait for the report to see the detailed results of the analysis. I can explain what it will tell us, however. It will tell us that there are numerous explanations for the difference between the two data sets. There is another key issue. If I recall correctly, it came up at the last committee meeting we attended, back in October. Not everything that looks like a tenancy is a tenancy registered with the RTB. That has all surfaced through the analysis. As I mentioned and as the Deputy alluded to, the census data set and the RTB register are two completely different data sets collected at different points in time using different mechanisms. That is what the analysis will tell us. What it will not give us is a list of potentially unregistered properties. That was understood from the outset.

With regard to where we are and what we are going to do next, we are also waiting for the final report. We understand it is imminent and will be released towards the back end of this month. In the meantime, we are continuing to operate our current compliance and enforcement processes in respect of failures to register. We see such failures as very important because they ultimately undermine the integrity of the register and, as a regulator, that integrity is paramount for us. It is also important to note that late fees are automatically being imposed on registrations. Since March of this year, these fees have been reintroduced. They were suspended for a period of time because of the issues we were having with the system.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Can Ms Crimin share with us the figure for registrations at the end of 2023?

Ms Lucia Crimin

I can.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Ms Crimin will give us at least one nugget in advance.

Ms Lucia Crimin

The number of private rental tenancies was just under 224,000.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Okay.

Ms Lucia Crimin

I have the figures for approved housing bodies, student-specific accommodation and cost-rental properties as well.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Ms Crimin should absolutely call them out.

Ms Lucia Crimin

The number for approved housing bodies was just over 44,000, student-specific accommodation was just under 34,000 and cost rental was 848.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

I only have 55 seconds left but will Ms Crimin address AHB bulk registration and the recruitment and training of adjudicators? According to the clock, she has 20 seconds for each.

Ms Lucia Crimin

As I have mentioned, bulk registration is being considered as part of the next batch of improvements to the system.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Is there a timeline for that?

Ms Lucia Crimin

It is in the context of the work that is being scoped so I could not put a timeline on it. As it has been identified as being part of that block of work, I would expect it soon.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

What about recruitment and training for adjudicators?

Ms Louise Loughlin

We have a pathway in terms of recruitment for adjudicators. Adjudicators are required to have a certain set of qualifications and experience. The vast majority of adjudicators tend to be barristers so one would expect them to have considerable knowledge of the law and the Act. We also provide training to our panel members. In addition, they are held accountable to the RTB through a service-level agreement in terms of when they agree to undertake an adjudication and when they should produce the report and the timeliness of that. There is also provision under the Act for the RTB to send a case back to an adjudicator or tribunal when it is of the view that there is inconsistency with other decisions so that can also surface its way up to the RTB board. We have a number of measures within the Act and our own practices to monitor the conduct of panel members. That is not to say we could not do more. We can always do more and that is something we are considering.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Given that the report is due to be published, it might be a nice idea for the RTB to be asked to provide a briefing to members after we have had time to absorb it so we can go through some of the questions we would otherwise have gone through today if we had seen it. That might be something we could do over the summer.

Senator John Cummins

It is disappointing that we do not have the 2023 report before us. It is clearly ready. When did the RTB conclude the report?

Ms Louise Loughlin

We have a statutory timeline under the Act, which is to furnish the Minister with a copy of the report by 30 June. It was presented to the Minister on Friday of last week. That is how tight this is. It must then be laid before the Oireachtas and published thereafter. That is all in motion. It is probably more that the timing of this is slightly out of kilter with our own schedule rather than the other way round. It is not any attempt to delay furnishing it to the committee. It is just that this is what is laid down in our legislation.

Senator John Cummins

No problem. The witnesses will be aware that in this committee, I have been focused on timelines relating to dispute resolution for the past number of years. Mr. Keegan's predecessor would have said that the ideal timelines for dispute resolution through the mediation process were four to six weeks and 12 weeks for adjudications. Would Mr. Keegan agree that these are the ideal timelines for decision making?

Mr. Owen Keegan

The target timeline is about eight weeks for mediation and 16 weeks for both the adjudication and the tribunal so I would be very happy to get to those first. I would say they are a ceiling on what could be achieved. We have to be clear. We are dealing with a 6% increase in the number of disputes we are getting since 2019. This year to date, disputes are up 10% so we have been dealing with a significant increase. While our resources have increased, they always seem to be lagging behind the increase. A lot of improvements are in hand at the moment and we believe we will begin to see a gradual reduction. About 40% of our disputes are dealt with by mediation, with 50% of those being successful, so mediation is by far the fastest route. We are down close to eight weeks already.

Senator John Cummins

So the RTB is at 9.2 or 9.3 weeks for-----

Mr. Owen Keegan

Yes. We are within striking distance of that. I accept fully that the times being achieved for adjudication and tribunal are unacceptably high but we are absolutely committed to trying to get these down. It would help if we were not facing a continual increase year on year in the volume of disputes.

Senator John Cummins

The obvious follow-on question is this: when does the RTB expect to meet its target timelines of eight weeks and 16 weeks that have been agreed with the Department?

Ms Louise Loughlin

What we have in motion now is a whole programme that has been stood up to improve disputes, as I mentioned earlier. That is across a range of issues. Some of that includes examining those target timelines in some detail to get in under the hood, understand them properly and see what is a meaningful timeline so we can have targets that are achievable and realistic for the public.

Senator John Cummins

Is it not eight weeks and 16 weeks then?

Ms Louise Loughlin

I did not say that. I said we are examining all this at the moment. What we have in our business plan for this year is to publish our processing times from the third quarter of this year. Over the course of this quarter, we will publish the processing times for the previous quarter on our website. We have talked about being within striking distance there on mediation. We will move towards publishing those processing times. The rationale for publishing this information is that the current situation is a bit opaque in terms of what the public can expect from the RTB in respect of how long a wait there will be for a case to be processed. The idea is that we will work towards achieving these timelines as set out with our parent Department. There is quite a bit of work to do in terms of really understanding this aspect.

One thing that needs to be borne in mind here is that it is a quasi-judicial process. If we think about adjudication, in particular, timelines are set down in the legislation and then reasonable timeframes must be given for people to do things like producing their evidence and papers.

Senator John Cummins

Sure.

Ms Louise Loughlin

If we compare it with other types of processes, even at the extremity, it is still a relatively quick process, although the time taken is not acceptable as far as we are concerned and we do wish to drive it down. It is important, though, to bear in mind that adjudication and tribunals are quasi-judicial functions, so they do take time.

Senator John Cummins

Absolutely, and I understand that point. I go back to the question, which was when does the RTB expect to meet the eight-week and 16-week target timelines?

Ms Louise Loughlin

By the first quarter of next year we will have full clarity on what those timeframes will be. As I said, we will be publishing the timeframes in this quarter as they are. Given all the changes we are making, however, including the additional resources and the process improvements, realistically, it will be the first quarter of next year before we can meet these targets across the board.

Senator John Cummins

The RTB will be meeting the eight-week and 16-week deadlines by the first quarter of next year.

.

Ms Louise Loughlin: That is the intention, yes.

Mr. Owen Keegan

I think we must enter a caveat, however. We do not control the number of disputes and it has been going up.

Ms Louise Loughlin

Yes.

Mr. Owen Keegan

Even this year to date, the numbers are up 10%. This comes on top of a 60% increase between 2019 and 2022. If these numbers keep increasing, there can be no guarantee. While the Department has given us sanction for additional resources, we are now behind the curve because these numbers are still going up at very high rates, to my surprise.

Senator John Cummins

Yes. This is obviously a major focus here because, as Mr. Keegan said, these numbers are unacceptable. If we look at the most recent report, from 2022, 33% of the RTB's cases were as a result of rent arrears or overholding, 19% concerned validity of termination notices and 17% were for breach of landlord obligations. On the other side of all this are landlords and tenants, who, in many cases, are out of pocket in terms of money or out of a property in terms of a tenancy. The longer the timeframes that are in place, the more negative impact there is on landlords and tenants. I continuously push on these timelines because of the importance of getting them down to a reasonable period to allow us to make progress on these things.

The RTB knows that when it issues determination notices it will have to go to court in many cases to have them implemented. That process can take even more weeks and mean people are out of money in respect of a property. We are trying to make this sector an attractive to bring people into it as landlords or as tenants and these timelines have a major impact on whether landlords decide to stay in the market or sell properties and on whether tenants feel they are in secure or insecure tenancies.

That is the reason I am harping on. I will come back in the second round.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Senator Cummins. I will bring him back in on that matter. I will take this slot.

First, the work that is being done between the RTB and the CSO is very welcome. That commitment was given at the meeting in question. It is good to see progress being made. The witnesses indicated that they expect the data to be published by the end of this month. That is very helpful.

I wish to continue with the subject of dispute resolution. It has been all of our experiences that you can meet model tenants who have terrible landlords and you can meet great landlords who have terrible tenants. Whatever way you come at this issue from will determine what your interest will be in the dispute. Can the witnesses help us to understand what contributes to the delays in dispute resolutions? Is it the case that one party does not provide the data, that they are not engaging or that they are reluctant? What tools does the RTB have to compel people to work with it to do that? People can delay things for a long time.

Ms Louise Loughlin

I can take that question. The Cathaoirleach set out very well and clearly how the issue can present itself. One of the commitments in Housing for All is for the RTB to develop a facilitation model. We ran a small pilot around this time last year. We described it as early intervention. Some of the detail relating to that project can be seen in our annual report. There were very small numbers because we ran a short pilot, but we were happy with its outcome. From March of this year, we stood that up as part of our dispute resolution service software. The plan is to build that out over time and we are growing it on an incremental basis. That involves some of the issues the Cathaoirleach set out, including taking a case when it is at the assessment stage. This occurs when an application has been received and after it has been ascertained that the case is eligible for RTB services and that it falls within our jurisdiction. If it is a landlord application, it is registered, etc. Then, our own highly experienced staff will contact the parties, pick up the phone to them and start talking to them about the case. They will try to ascertain what the issues are and whether the case lends itself to resolution-----

An Cathaoirleach

I am sorry to interrupt. If, after carrying out that assessment or after looking at the case, the RTB determines that a case is not going to be resolved through mediation and decides to go to the next step, is it within the gift of the RTB to not give that full eight-week period-----

Ms Louise Loughlin

That is what we have been looking at. Two things are going on at the same time. We stood up that early intervention service, which is what we call it. At the same time, we also have what is being called default mediation, which is to divert people towards mediation services when they contact us. This is on the basis that mediation is quicker, free, less formal and confidential. However, we need to do some refinement of that because some people are going into mediation when they may be more appropriate for adjudication. That model has been delivered for a period and, as is natural when delivering any public service, we must review how effective it is. We are in the process of looking at that as well. That will lead us to looking at some cases that may be more appropriate for adjudication, rather than necessarily going down the mediation route. It also means that we can pull things out of the queue. We are thinking of the end-to-end process. As Mr. Keegan stated, the numbers are increasing all the time and multiple people are coming to the service looking for mediation or adjudication. If we can talk to the parties at the earliest possible stage and ascertain if they realistically need to proceed to a full hearing at that earliest possible point, not only may those parties possibly get a resolution, it will also free up slots for others.

It is also worthwhile to note that even the fact that people have lodged an application with the RTB can lead to resolutions. It actually can lead to landlords and tenants engaging with each other directly and resolving their disputes without going to full hearings, whether that is in the context of mediation or adjudication. The number of applications do reduce in terms of those that actually proceed through the entire process. There are multiple reasons for them to fall off during that time. Again, this is natural enough, because sometimes it is just the shove that people need to actually resolve their cases. There are quite a few things going on there. We are looking at examining it all very carefully while at the same time delivering business as usual with an increased level of demand.

The early intervention is the way forward with this in terms of building out that capacity within the organisation. You have to be careful because people have a right to go to the quasi-judicial forum. It is absolutely people's right under the Act to have a case heard in that way. Our guys who deliver the service have said that the engagement from the public is really positive. We pick up the phone to them, our staff ring them, and sometimes there has to be a few emails or whatever backwards and forwards just to get into it. People may seek a bit of time to think about whether they want to proceed, and then the case can resolve.

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you for that.

Mr. Keegan, you said the numbers increased, I think, by 10%.

Mr. Owen Keegan

They were 10% up from January to May last year.

An Cathaoirleach

What would be the reason for that increase? Are people becoming more aware of their rights and the role of the RTB, or are we talking about more tenancies ending?

Mr. Owen Keegan

We have not done any research, but it certainly seems to me from my limited experience that we are dealing with a much more pressurised rental market. In the past, for example, a landlord might serve a perfectly legitimate notice to quit and the tenant would have no issue and would say "fine" and go somewhere else. Similarly, if I was pissed off with the standard of my rented accommodation, I would just move somewhere else. Now it is very hard to go somewhere else because it is very hard to access properties. I think the pressure on the rental market has caused a huge rigidity such that options that people had in the past are no longer there and the only recourse they have is increasingly to the RTB. That is my take on why the numbers are going up so dramatically.

An Cathaoirleach

I have a question about the IT system. If a tenancy ends and the property is no longer being rented out - let us say the reason is that the landlord is selling up or moving in a relative or whatever it might be - does the RTB have any way of tracking that address? Is it flagged up for the RTB if it comes back as a registered tenancy within the two years? Is that the time limit on it? Yes. You are nodding, Ms Crimin. You have that information. Is that the way that works?

Ms Lucia Crimin

I can take that. The system, as it has been designed, since the commencement of annual registration, is that where a tenancy is not renewed annually, it is automatically removed from the system. That is the first thing.

Second, every single tenancy on our system now is unique and distinctive. The eircodes are mandatory since May of last year. That was part of the stabilisation programme we implemented. Mandatory eircodes mean that we have unique tenancies. As to when the tenancy ends, we have commissioned a piece of work where we are looking at a property-level analysis of our register. By looking at individual properties, we are seeing how long they are staying on our register and then when they are coming off. I expect that in the fullness of time we will be able to see if and how they come back onto the register. It is important to remember that annual registration was commenced only two years ago, so we are only now at the point with our data set at which we can commence this type of analysis. We expect by the end of this year to have much more to say about that.

An Cathaoirleach

To thrash that out a little, where a tenancy was registered with the eircode and the reason for the termination of the tenancy, and where the RTB then sees that come back on the system within two years, can the RTB proactively address that, or does that have to come from an enforcement complaint?

Ms Lucia Crimin

It does not. The RTB really strives now and will in the future to be much more of a proactive regulator. As Mr. Keegan mentioned, the quality and the integrity of our data set is absolutely critical to position us as a modern, effective and high-quality regulator. Those kinds of data and matching up those kinds of data points will be very important for how we approach this type of non-compliance in the future.

An Cathaoirleach

It is fairly challenging, I would say, but it is very important.

Mr. Owen Keegan

May I add to that? We did a once-off piece of work which we now hope to repeat. We took all the notices of termination that were sent to us in quarter 4 of 2022 - there is a requirement that they be sent to us - and we followed up on all those properties to see what had happened to them in May of 2024. It was interesting. This was a preliminary analysis.

In approximately 75% of cases where intention to sell was one of the reasons given, the tenancy had ended and no new tenancy had been registered with us. In approximately 17% of cases, the same tenancy was in existence, so the landlord obviously decided not to terminate the lease. In approximately 2% of cases, the tenancy had ended and a new tenancy with a new landlord was in place. That does not seem unreasonable. In approximately 5% of cases, there was a new tenancy with the existing landlord. We are following up on those cases. They are not necessarily non-compliant with the legislation. There could be reasons. This is the first time we have tracked notices of termination and followed up after two years. Our data now allows us to do that. That is something we have to do regularly to generate possible leads for investigations.

Senator Victor Boyhan

I welcome the interim director and the two deputy directors from the RTB. I thank Mr. Keegan for the very comprehensive statement he has taken us through and for his commentary on some of the issues. I note his commentary on the role and remit of the RTB, on the RTB data, which made up a large segment of his presentation, on the registration process and concerns about the IT systems, on the difference between RTB data and CSO data, which he has commented on, and on the implementation of the rent pressure zones. Enforcement is an ongoing challenge. Clearly, if there are more problems, there are going to be more issues.

I will ask three specific questions. They arise on foot of Mr. Keegan's statement. Will the witnesses confirm whether the RTB is satisfied with the powers it has to sanction and prosecute rogue landlords? I may ask the three questions before they answer. There are many rogue landlords. The word "rogue" is very vague but the witnesses will know what I mean.

What plans does the RTB have in train to reduce processing times? A number of my colleagues have talked about this. What is the plan? I am more interested in hearing about the trajectory and the RTB's plan to reduce the time it takes to process dispute resolution cases because that is ultimately where we want to go. I presume the RTB has a plan. The witnesses might share that plan with us.

Will the witnesses share with the committee in more detail than it has already has any plans the RTB has in respect of strategic research and data analysis? That is mentioned in the presentation. The RTB has a remit to carry out strategic research. On the data analysis, the more you drill into the data and analyse it, the more information comes up. Those are my three questions. The witnesses might touch on them if they can.

Ms Lucia Crimin

I will deal with the Senator's first question if that is okay. I have a rogue hair. As I mentioned before, the RTB is working very hard to become an effective and efficient regulator. To one of the questions that was raised earlier, the board is committed to being much more proactive rather than reactive. What that translates to in real terms is facilitating and supporting compliance and achieving compliance at the lowest level of cost and complexity.

As we have already mentioned this afternoon and as I am sure we will mention again over the course of this afternoon, our data set is improving rapidly. This arises from annual registration and from our capability and competence in taking other data sets from across the public sector to identify potential non-compliance. We are using technology in a very smart way to do that and to make the best use of our resources.

We have a very experienced and highly qualified and capable team working in the regulatory part of our business, our compliance and enforcement team. We acknowledge that we had to divert some of those resources during the registration crisis but I am very pleased to say that they are all back in post now. So as not to waste a good crisis, if I may use that phrase, we took that opportunity to develop our programme approach to positioning and developing the RTB as an effective and efficient regulator.

We are now very focused on conducting investigations where risks are highest. We have talked about rogue landlords. In regulatory language and internally, we refer to that as deliberate and determined non-compliance. As a regulator, it is the responsible thing for the RTB to do to invest our resources where risks are highest.

I am not sure if I mentioned this earlier but it is our intention to improve the process by which members of the public can report potential non-compliance to us by the end of this year. We see this public engagement as being very important.

Senator Victor Boyhan

My next question was on processing times in disputes.

Ms Louise Loughlin

We have an ongoing improvement programme. As well as the new resources that our parent Department has supported us with, we have also put in place some extra operational management supports to drive some additional improvements. Some of the issues we are looking at include IT changes that will make it more straightforward for customers to make applications to our dispute resolution service. We are also looking at some process improvements at an operational level, for example, regarding the submission of documentation or evidence.

The Senator might know from some of the people he represents or others who have spoken to him about it that this can be a bit of a convoluted process. Like many other public bodies with these type of functions, the RTB has found itself in a situation where people are sending in significant volumes of information - quite often multiple versions of emails, multiple messages, including WhatsApp messages, or videos - and they all need to be processed and grouped for evidence at an adjudication or tribunal so we are looking at how we manage that process. We are talking to some of our colleagues in other bodies such as the Workplace Relations Commission about how they manage that. As well as the increase in demand, the way we communicate in society has changed completely, so how that evidence develops is completely different from old-fashioned books of evidence we might have had in the courts. It has changed quite substantially. As a result, we are looking at making changes there as well. There are many different things that will lead to those process improvements. The plan is to examine all that in detail. What is important to convey here is that the intention of the RTB as a public body is to be open and transparent with the public so that it can see the times.

Senator Victor Boyhan

What about strategic research and data analysis?

Mr. Owen Keegan

I mentioned that we would publish a new data series at the end of July. It will be a profile of the register for the end of each quarter. I also briefly mentioned the work we started doing on analysing or tracking what happens in the event of properties being subject to noticed of termination. In terms of pricing, major work is under way by the ESRI to track pricing developments at individual property level. This will be useful because it will compare prices for the same property over time. This will allow us to begin to address exactly the extent to which rent pressure zone restrictions are having an impact - something we cannot quite do at the moment. We are looking at doing an exercise on scoping landlords' behaviour, identifying how many of them are exiting the market and the pattern of landlords exiting or re-entering the market.

An issue is emerging in terms of trying to track market rents. So many areas of the country are designated as RPZs that there is really no market rent, so we are looking at ways we can estimate what the market rent is. We hope to commence that work. There is one other piece of work we have planned. We produce a new tenancies rent index and an existing rent tenancies index. We are looking at the possibility of creating a composite all rented properties rent index. Work is under way in all those areas.

Senator Victor Boyhan

In response to Senator Cummins earlier, Ms Loughlin mentioned the RTB's statutory obligation to lay its annual report before the Oireachtas. The RTB has served it on the Minister. Is that going to happen this week?

Ms Louise Loughlin

Our obligation is to furnish the Minister with it by 30 June, so we have met our obligation. It is now a matter for the Minister and the Department to lay it before the Oireachtas.

Senator Victor Boyhan

It is the Minister's responsibility to-----

Ms Louise Loughlin

It is. It does not rest with us under our legislation.

An Cathaoirleach

It might be in order for the committee to write to the Minister and ask him to furnish the report to us as soon as possible.

Senator Victor Boyhan

I agree with that proposal.

An Cathaoirleach

We will note that and, possibly, request the report from the Minister. I think that would be helpful.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

I thank the witnesses for their contributions. I want to ask about illegal rent increases and breaches of RPZs. Mr. Keegan said the RTB is looking at having a composite rent index.

If so, does this mean the board will not be publishing the new tenancies rent increases and the existing tenancies rent increases? Or will the board publish those and have a composite?

Mr. Owen Keegan

We will continue to publish those new increases but we are looking at creating a composite. For example, if people want to know what the average rent is in rental properties, that is a question we cannot answer at the moment because we have the new tenancies and existing rents and properties move between the two. We are looking at that. Separately, work is under way by the ESRI to look at our existing data to create a kind of panel of identical properties to track rents in identical properties over time. This is critical to being able to measure the impact of RPZ restrictions. The way our indices are compiled does not allow us to be definitive about it the moment.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

The illegal rent increases taking place now are in breach of the RTB rules. The RTB has access to a huge amount of data now that it did not have a number of years ago. Is the board proactively taking action on illegal rent increases, and not just on the foot of complaints from individual renters? Will the witnesses tell us about that work? Has it commenced and what has been the outcome of it? If not, when is it commencing and at what scale?

Ms Lucia Crimin

Since 2019 the RTB has a function in investigating the improper conduct of breach of RPZs. We have published in previous annual reports our activity around that. That is the formal investigation under part 7A of the process. Last year, 67 out of 109 formal investigations related to the breach of RPZ requirements. Activity is ongoing in that space.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Are these on foot of complaints from renters?

Ms Lucia Crimin

It is both. Under the Act the RTB is able to commence an investigation of its own volition or in response to a complaint from a member of the public. As I mentioned earlier, compliance and achieving compliance is the most effective and efficient way that a regulator can operate. As the Deputy has rightly pointed out, we have more data and better data than ever before. We have commissioned work on the property level analysis looking at the rental amounts associated with each of those properties. This will allow us to see over a period of time how the rent amount associated with a particular property changes over time. This is a completely separate and distinct piece of analysis from the rent index. We expect that by the end of this year we will have much greater insights. Unfortunately I do not have any anything to share with the committee today but I am aware of how the work has been designed. I am very confident that what it will tell us over time will really point to specific addresses and properties where there appears prima facie to be a breach of an RPZ, in which case the RTB will then be able to take proactive action against that. This will be done in a bulk way where we can identify large volumes - hopefully not too large - and potentially we will be able to automate that detection and put potential non-compliance into a compliance channel.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Will Ms Crimin give us a bit of a timeline on that? There are 224,000 tenancies registered, most which are in RPZs. The data certainly suggests that large-scale breaches of the RPZ rules on the 2% increase are happening within that, so 67 formal investigations is not even the tip of the iceberg in terms of the scale of it. That bulk work is absolutely needed so what sort of timescale is on it?

Ms Lucia Crimin

That is a really important point to make. Given the size of the registers held by the RTB, which is collectively over 300,000 tenancies, for the RTB to be effective and efficient it needs to operate at scale. What we are talking about here is having a bulk look up to identify this. I expect that by the end of this year we will have preliminary analyses back, which will give us an overall picture of the state of compliance of the register holistically. After that when we have the information it will help us to size and design the types of compliance activities.

We have called it out in our statement of strategy. We have made it a firm commitment. As Mr. Keegan mentioned earlier, we are around halfway through the statement of strategy. As a result, I would expect that by the end of the lifecycle of the current strategy, the work in this area will be much more advanced and well on its way to being scaled up.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

What is the end of the current-----

Ms Lucia Crimin

It is 2025. It is a three-year strategy.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Anecdotal evidence indicates that there are a significant number of tenancies that are not registered. This ties into the work that is being done on the difference between the CSO and RTB figures. I know there are many other issues involved as well, but this is one of the factors. Is the RTB doing anything to proactively track down unregistered tenancies? Is it simply operating on foot of complaints from individuals or is there a proactive approach on it?

Ms Lucia Crimin

Once again, we have a proactive approach to that. I can give the Deputy some figures to give some indication of the scale we are operating in. At the tail end of 2023, we issued just over 17,000 notices of potential non-compliance with the requirement to register. We obviously gave people some opportunity to regularise their affairs and come into compliance. When we analysed that data set again in April, the number had decreased to about 1,500. We are going through those now and undertaking much more detailed analysis to identify if they are, in fact, unregistered tenancies that should be registered or not with the RTB.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Out of 17,000 issued, quite a few were resolved. Either they registered or they were able to say that they do not need to register because there is no tenancy or whatever. There are 1,500 of the 17,000 outstanding.

Ms Lucia Crimin

Exactly. Rather than looking at 17,000, our attention now is looking at those 1,500. That is a new process that has been designed and built since I was here previously. It is something we will refine. It is not the prettiest process in the world but it is effective. As Mr. Keegan mentioned, as part of our investment into future digital platforms in the RTB, this would be something that could be taken to the next stage. The RTB can achieve scale by means of this kind of bulk data review, which is very fast. In the past, the RTB was very reliant on manual and semi-automated processes. There was a major reliance on humans reviewing information. It is hard work and not very inspirational.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Yes. It was also reliant on individual complaints, which placed an onus on individual renters to come forward with complaints.

Ms Lucia Crimin

Precisely.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

They may not have had the confidence to do so or they may have been worried about the security of their rental agreements if they did.

Ms Lucia Crimin

We recognise that.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

It is a big step forward.

Ms Lucia Crimin

Yes, we recognise that. It would be well recognised across other regulators as well. Most people do want to comply. We recognise from the past couple of years people registering and complying with the obligation to register, that this was not the easiest process to follow due to the issues with the system. We have sorted out many of the more basic issues. There is still quite a way to go. It is my firm belief that making compliance easy is really the way to tackle the matter and support ultimate compliance.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

I thank Ms Crimin.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Deputy O'Callaghan. I want to ask Ms Crimin to clarify a figure I think she mentioned.

Ms Lucia Crimin

Sure.

An Cathaoirleach

It relates to a question Deputy O'Callaghan asked about excessive rent increases in RPZs. Ms Crimin gave a figure of 67 out of 109 in respect of investigations.

Ms Lucia Crimin

Yes, 109.

An Cathaoirleach

Is there a figure for the number of complaints the RTB received about excessive rent increases in RPZs?

Ms Lucia Crimin

I ask the Chair to give me two seconds. I will have a little look.

An Cathaoirleach

Yes, I am sorry.

Ms Lucia Crimin

I may not have that figure to hand, in which case-----

An Cathaoirleach

That is absolutely fine.

Ms Lucia Crimin

That is the number of formal investigations under the Act that have been commenced.

An Cathaoirleach

It is 67.

Ms Lucia Crimin

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

And what does the 109 represent?

Ms Lucia Crimin

The 109 figure is the total number of investigations. The RTB can investigate a number of potential breaches of the Act and a number of improper conducts, and 67 of those relate to breaches of RPZs.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. There is a figure available somewhere about the number of complaints to the RTB about excessive rent increases within RPZs. Is that figure available somewhere?

Ms Lucia Crimin

There is a figure. I just do not have it to hand.

An Cathaoirleach

That is grand. Whenever Ms Crimin has that, it would be helpful for us. I am going to move on to Senator Moynihan.

Senator Rebecca Moynihan

I thank the Chair. One of the worst things about coming in so late is that everybody else has asked the questions I have listed here. I might come back to some of them, if that is okay with the witnesses. Mr. Keegan said there has been a 60% increase in complaints to the RTB since 2019. Is that right? Is it a 60% increase since 2019?

Mr. Owen Keegan

It was 60% between 2019 and 2023. There was a 60% increase.

Senator Rebecca Moynihan

Perfect. That seems an extraordinarily high figure to me. I wonder if there is any particular reason behind that. Is it down to greater investigation by the RTB or are there particular reasons that are being flagged up in those increases? As legislators, since 2020 we have had numerous changes to rental laws come before us. It would be interesting from our perspective as legislators to know whether there is anything we are doing that is causing that massive increase.

I also want to ask about withholding deposits. One of the things that comes up anecdotally is landlords withholding deposits, making excuses for why they cannot give deposits back or taking things into account. Is that something that has come up for the RTB and if so, how is it dealt with? Does the RTB have figures on that?

I want to come back to the right to get your tenancy back. Can the witnesses give those figures again? Did the RTB just do a random sample on the right to get a tenancy back? It was stated that 75% had moved on, and there were 25% that did not go through. I want to clarify that. Were there additional reasons there?

Mr. Owen Keegan

I will come back to the Senator on that.

Senator Rebecca Moynihan

That is grand. A question on proactive registration of landlords has already been asked. Is there any mapping exercise or random sample done from things like land registration or planning applications with regard to proactive registration of landlords?

Is there any work being done with local authorities on the breakdown of people who qualify for the tenant in situ scheme? We tried to get an amendment added whereby if somebody qualified for tenant in situ, a notice to quit would be given by the RTB to the local authority. That was not accepted but do any local authorities have those informal arrangements where there is a family at risk of homelessness, or somebody who qualifies for local authority housing at risk of homelessness, that the RTB actually deals with the local authority? Are there any informal arrangements on that?

Mr. Owen Keegan

Does Ms Loughlin want to go first?

Ms Louise Loughlin

Yes, I can take the question about withholding deposits and the Senator's last question about the local authorities. As stated, we have the 2023 figures. Some 16% of cases in 2023 for the dispute resolution service related to deposit retention. There were 1,606 applications to the RTB. That is quite similar to previous years. The percentage in 2021 was 19% and in 2022 it was 16%, the same as last year. It is kind of steady. The dispute application types are fairly consistent year on year; they do not really change that much.

Regarding the notice of termination, generally what happens is the decision on whether a notice of termination is valid or invalid can ultimately only be made in a dispute case by an adjudicator or at a tribunal. It is not really the function of the RTB to determine whether an NOT is valid. However, people often come to us with queries on NOTs and whether they are valid. We also frequently receive such queries from Oireachtas Members. There is probably a piece of work for us to do on that with regard to improving communication around it.

We do talk to local authorities all the time. There is a lot of informal contact about people's situations. Often, there will be a request to confirm whether an NOT is valid. All we can really confirm - Ms Crimin might confirm some of this for me from her side - is that it has been served validly.

Senator Rebecca Moynihan

It is not actually a question of them being valid. It is whether the person being evicted could qualify under the tenant in situ scheme with regard to moving that on.

I know it is not a legislative requirement, but does the RTB have informal mechanisms to deal with people it knows are at risk of homelessness? Does it leave it to the person to deal with that or is there a mechanism, for example, to begin the process where that person might qualify under the tenant in situ scheme? Is that something that comes up?

Ms Louise Loughlin

No, it is not generally something that comes up.

Ms Lucia Crimin

The Senator asked a question about proactively identifying non-registration. I will make one quick comment in addition to what I have said already. In furtherance of the concept of building a compliance model at scale, the RTB is already in receipt of a number of data sets from across the system. These include a data set in respect of HAP. We are working with the Department of housing on establishing a new legal basis to allow data to be shared with the Revenue Commissioners. To come back to the point, the quality of our data and the existence of a unique identifier, an eircode, makes it possible to take large data sets from other organisations and to perform bulk analysis to identify potential non-compliance.

Mr. Owen Keegan

I mentioned some analysis work we have started doing on the notices of termination that landlords are required to serve on the RTB when issuing them to tenants. Heretofore, we used to just keep those and do nothing with them. We have now started to analyse them, however. In May, we looked at the notices we got in the fourth quarter of 2022 to see what had happened. There was one question we were particularly interested in looking at. In cases where intention to sell was one of the reasons cited on the notice, we wanted to see whether there was subsequently a tenancy at the property. I have read out the results. In 75% of such cases, the tenancy had ended and there was no new tenancy. That seems reasonable. In 17% of cases, the tenancy did not end. There was no termination and the tenant was still registered as being in situ. In about 2% of cases, there was a new tenancy with a new landlord. That appears to be legitimate. In 5.5% of cases, there was a new tenancy with the existing landlord. That has thrown up cases we need to investigate. This is an example of us using the new much richer data we have to target our investigations. We are examining all of the cases the analysis has thrown up to make sure there has been compliance with the requirements of the Act. That is an example of the kind of work we are trying to do.

Senator Rebecca Moynihan

That is really interesting because it has been very hard to capture where that happens. It is really good to have a figure, that 5.5%. I have one final question. I know the RTB is to do some work on a rental price index. Is Mr. Keegan in favour of a rental price register like the property price register? I can have a look at what a house has sold for. If something goes sale agreed, I can see what it sold for in 2013 and 2020. Is Mr. Keegan in favour of something like that? Would a transparent rental price register help the RTB in ensuring compliance?

Mr. Owen Keegan

To be honest, I have never given it any thought. I do not know if my colleagues have a view on it but I do not.

Senator Rebecca Moynihan

We have submitted amendments to things to say there should be such a register. Would it be helpful?

Ms Lucia Crimin

It is not something I have a view on either. I understand that there are a number of complexities. I do not know what they are but I understand they exist. Speaking on behalf of the RTB, we are fundamentally committed to operating transparently where transparency is in the best interests of the public. That is fair to say but we do not have a view on this issue.

An Cathaoirleach

That would be really helpful for people in the rental market.

Senator Rebecca Moynihan

It would be really helpful.

Senator John Cummins

To pick up where Mr. Keegan left off, the exercise the RTB carried out on the data between quarter 4 of 2022 and-----

Mr. Owen Keegan

May of this year.

Senator John Cummins

-----May of this year was very useful.

What number does the 5.5% he mentioned represent? What is the total number of notices from quarter 4 that were analysed?

Mr. Owen Keegan

The number of notices received in quarter 4 was 4,300, so 5.5% is 200 properties or so. We will refine this analysis. There is an issue with matching. There are a few bits to do but it is very valuable work.

Senator John Cummins

I agree.

Mr. Owen Keegan

It is the kind of thing that allows us to direct our enforcement.

Senator John Cummins

I agree but it is important the number is out there. We are not talking about thousands. It is a smaller number although any number is unacceptable.

Mr. Owen Keegan

There could be reasons. For example, the landlords could have offered those tenancies back to the original tenants only for them to decide they did not want them.

Senator John Cummins

They may have been in situ in another property.

Mr. Owen Keegan

It is not proof of non-compliance.

Senator John Cummins

That is correct.

Mr. Owen Keegan

However, it is a rich resource on which to direct our investigations.

Senator John Cummins

How many disputes did the RTB encounter in 2023? I appreciate the number is in the report but the witnesses should have it there.

Mr. Owen Keegan

A total 9,908 were referred to us in 2023.

Senator John Cummins

Okay. I have written down that it was 7,417-----

Ms Louise Loughlin

There were 7,417 referrals in 2022.

Senator John Cummins

That is a significant uplift.

Ms Louise Loughlin

It is a significant increase, yes.

Senator John Cummins

To go back to the timelines, the 9.3 weeks is obviously an average. What is the shortest and what is the longest within that?

Ms Louise Loughlin

Therein is the question. I do not have an answer to that specific question today.

Senator John Cummins

Ms Loughlin should have known I would ask that because I have asked it before.

Ms Louise Loughlin

I did know the Senator was going to ask me that. The reason I am not able to answer is that, as I have set out, we are trying to fully understand it ourselves. One of the things we are looking at doing is looking at the process from end to end. That is the average processing time for all mediation applications.

Senator John Cummins

I am aware of that.

Ms Louise Loughlin

As I was saying earlier, to be fully transparent with the public, what we want to publish is the end-to-end timeline from when a person receives a determination order because that is the critical point for that party.

Senator John Cummins

If Ms Loughlin does not have it for mediation, she will not have it for adjudication but I ask her to follow up in writing to the committee to outline the outliers on the long end and on the short end.

Mr. Owen Keegan

To be very clear, we are not responsible for all of the delay. It can be the result of individual circumstances. There are situations where people are ill and cannot complete the process.

Senator John Cummins

That may be the case in some limited circumstances-----

Mr. Owen Keegan

It would be, yes.

Senator John Cummins

-----but it would not be the general norm. It would be particularly useful to know the outlier on the short end. While I accept the outlier on the long end may be the result of something like an illness, as Mr. Keegan has suggested, the RTB may have managed to do it in three, four or five weeks on the short end. I would be very interested to see what we could potentially get to over the longer term as we shorten the periods, which we all want to do. What is the staff headcount now and what was it in 2024?

Mr. Owen Keegan

Our approved establishment is 124. We are a bit short of that because a recruitment process in under way for a number of jobs. I should say we have a substantial outsourced customer service operation.

Senator John Cummins

That relates to the phone lines the board operates.

Mr. Owen Keegan

Yes. It relates to the phone lines and initial assessment.

Senator John Cummins

That was to be my follow-on question. That service is still outsourced. Approximately how many work on the outsourced phone line?

Ms Lucia Crimin

I do not have the exact figure but it is fewer than 100.

Senator John Cummins

It was 92 when the RTB came before the committee in November 2022. I am surprised it is not more than that.

Ms Lucia Crimin

We increased the headcount in response to the performance of the registration system.

Since we stabilised the system, we have been able to reduce the headcount and, as was mentioned earlier, we introduced our virtual agent.

I will briefly mention what stabilisation in our contact centre translates into. It is a reduction of 43% and 44% respectively in the number of calls and emails we are receiving. Emails are responded to within five working days now and 97% of our calls are answered in total. The call-waiting time is less than a minute and that has been sustained over the past 12 months.

Senator John Cummins

That is very good.

Ms Lucia Crimin

When we recall back in September and October-----

Senator John Cummins

Of 2022. When the RTB was before the committee just after that, the situation was significantly different. That is welcome and I commend the RTB on that because it was a significant frustration for-----

Ms Lucia Crimin

I recognise the work of my colleagues and the relationship with our vendor partner in getting us to this point. This level of stable performance has now been sustained for 12 months. The last time I was before the committee, we explained the improvements we had made to the system, the last of which is fondly referred to internally as "release 3". The last component of that release was deployed onto the system in October and, since October 2023, the system has also been stable. Although we recognise it is still suboptimal in many ways, it is now a stable system and the vast majority of landlords and agents can register tenancies with relative ease.

Senator John Cummins

On the 124 headcount, by approximately how many does Mr. Keegan think the RTB is short at the moment?

Mr. Owen Keegan

I would say it is to the order of seven or eight, but I can send on the details. It is in that order.

Senator John Cummins

It is seven or eight. It is not 17 or 18.

Mr. Owen Keegan

No. It is churn.

Senator John Cummins

I understand that

Deputy Thomas Gould

I thank the witnesses for being here. I apologise that I have been in other meetings. Is there a need for increased visibility of the RTB dispute timelines? There have been reports that some disputed cases, including those involving serious antisocial behaviour, have taken more than six or 12 months for a determination order to be given. What does the RTB hope to do to address this timeline?

Ms Louise Loughlin

I will take that. As I said earlier before the Deputy was here, a disputes improvement programme has been stood up since the first quarter of this year. It has a range of projects in it, that is, areas identified where we can improve our service. It is important to convey that one of the key components of that - it is in our business plan for this year - is to publish our processing times every quarter. As the Deputy will be aware, they currently only appear in the annual report. I have committed to publishing those processing times each quarter so that members of the public, TDs, Senators and everyone else who has an interest in the work of the RTB can see how long cases took this quarter and the previous quarter. The intention is that, in this quarter, the third quarter of the year, we will publish those processing times.

We are also changing how those processing times will look. We will still publish the average processing times, which answers Senator Cummins's question, and we will also publish more detailed end-to-end processing times. People can see how long they will have to wait on average to receive their determination order. Ultimately, that is the key document they need to be able to move on.

On the Deputy's specific question about antisocial behaviour, we are also looking at prioritising certain cases. We have some prioritisation at the moment and we are looking at refining that so that a case such as one involving anti-social behaviour, because it can be serious and involve criminality, intimidation and a lot of activity that would make people's lives miserable, is prioritised by the RTB end to end. Such cases will be treated differently because we recognise as a public body that has to happen. That is all in train.

Much of that work is incremental, we are making changes as we go and we are looking at prioritisation at the moment.

Deputy Thomas Gould

In Cork, 544 notices of termination were received by the RTB in the first quarter of this year alone. In 2023, some 2,180 eviction notices were served in Cork. Were all of them valid notices to quit and if not, how many were valid? If they were all valid, what was the total number that came in? Is there a mechanism for the RTB to notify Cork City Council about these notifications and if not, why not?

Ms Louise Loughlin

I have the total figures here, if the Deputy bears with me.

Deputy Thomas Gould

That is not a problem.

An Cathaoirleach

While I am anticipating Senator Cummins's questions, I always anticipate a question about Cork from Deputy Gould.

Ms Louise Loughlin

That is fair.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I will ask another question, to give Ms Loughlin a chance to look into that one.

I believe the local authorities should come under the remit of the RTB. Housing maintenance is a particularly problematic issue in most local authorities I talk to Sinn Féin TDs and councillors about. The council is a landlord and should be accountable to its tenants. It cannot happen overnight, but has consideration been given to the staffing increases that would be required to include local authorities? Are current staffing levels adequate for the workload the RTB has now?

Mr. Owen Keegan

I am uniquely qualified to comment on this question. The reality is that the board of the RTB has not considered and has not taken any view on whether its remit should be expanded. There are approximately 140,000 local authority properties and we are dealing with more than 300,000 properties that are registered so it would be at least a 50% increase. It would be a huge and significant expansion of our remit. My personal opinion is that the RTB has enough on its plate in getting all its systems working to the level we want and addressing issues that were raised today. If it is to happen, I would like it to happen when we have our house in order. Then we can look at expanding our remit. However the RTB has not taken any view on whether it should expand its remit to include local authority tenancies.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I respect that. The RTB is doing the work under the remit it has been given.

Not only in Cork, but nationally, some of the housing local authorities have is an absolute disgrace. Where can tenants of local authority houses who live in shocking conditions go? Where do they have the right to go if the local authority landlord is leaving them in these conditions? We are now saying that people in the private sector are better off. Do not get me wrong; we want the RTB to do its work, but it is like people in local authority housing are second class citizens. That is an argument we will have to have with the Minister and the Government.

We will return to the previous question if Ms Loughlin has the figures.

Ms Louise Loughlin

Yes. The Deputy asked for the total number of notices of termination received by the RTB in the first quarter of this year. It was 4,810 and for the previous quarter, the fourth quarter of 2023, it was 4,005. The role of the RTB in a notice of termination, NOT, is to receive it. As Mr. Keegan and Ms Crimin alluded to, we have done quite a bit of work on analysing those. However, with the way the legislation is framed, it is not for the RTB to determine the validity of an NOT or otherwise. That is a matter for the RTB exercising its quasi-judicial function of the adjudicator.

However, we have also stood up an early intervention service in our disputes resolution service. That was part of our commitments under the Government's Housing for All programme. We ran a small pilot last year and we are rolling it out. We stood it up in March this year. It involves small numbers at the moment, but we will be growing them as we go.

One of the issues we are looking at is where applicants, largely tenants in this situation, lodge a dispute application with the RTB regarding a notice of termination. Our staff are contacting the parties directly and helping them identify whether the notice of termination is valid and to consider what their options might be. I do not have the figures with me but we can send them on to the committee. The numbers are too small at the moment to really give a high-level view as to how successful it is but we believe it will develop into something, a different way of doing business, so to speak. The RTB has a function under the Act to help people resolve their disputes at the earliest possible stage and on that basis, we are able to say what a notice of termination should contain and to help people to understand that. It gives people the option to access expert advice from us.

Deputy Thomas Gould

To go back to the two figures we heard at the start, there were 4,810-----

Ms Louise Loughlin

In quarter 1 of 2024, yes.

Deputy Thomas Gould

-----notices to quit received-----

Ms Louise Loughlin

Notices of termination received by the RTB. Yes.

Deputy Thomas Gould

Is that for Cork city and county?

Ms Louise Loughlin

That is the national figure. I do not have the detail for Cork here.

Deputy Thomas Gould

That is fine. In the previous year, the figure was 4,005.

Ms Louise Loughlin

Yes.

Deputy Thomas Gould

That is roughly a 20% increase, if I do the maths off the top of my head. Is that right? We have seen a 20% increase in notices to quit in the first quarter of 2024 relative to the same quarter in 2023. Is that fair to say?

Ms Louise Loughlin

Yes but one can look at it in a number of ways. All of this information is on our data hub on our website. If one goes back to quarter 3 of 2023, the figure was 4,518 nationally. We cannot necessarily extrapolate from the data that there has been a 20% increase. We would have to see whether there is a trend there or not, a steady increase.

Deputy Thomas Gould

The RTB said earlier that in 2023 there were 109 formal investigations, with 67 found to be in breach of the regulations. Obviously, that is quite a small number. How many were reported breaches and how many were investigations that the RTB decided to undertake itself? Has the board set a much higher target for 2024? Obviously the board cannot do it all in one year but has the RTB a target set for two or three year's time of the percentage of reported breaches that it would like to investigate when the requisite staffing is in place?

Ms Lucia Crimin

As we said, there were 67 investigations into breaches of the RPZ rules. These include investigations commenced on the own volition of the RTB and on foot of complaints from members of the public.

Deputy Thomas Gould

Is there a breakdown on how many were-----

Ms Lucia Crimin

We have more detail in the annual report which will be published shortly. It is quite important to recognise that the number of investigations, in and of itself, is not a measure of the success or otherwise of the RTB as a regulator. An investigation is a very particular thing under Part 7A of the Act and is laid out very precisely in terms of process. An investigation under the Residential Tenancies Act culminates in confirmation by the Circuit Court of the sanction. It is a very long process, end to end, and it is for that reason that we are now developing our compliance approach. This involves identifying all potential breaches of the Act that can be regularised and brought into compliance quickly, cheaply and easily. We would then reserve our investigation process for those very deliberate and determined rogue landlords, as Senator Boyhan described them. That makes the best use of RTB resources. As I mentioned, 109 reports of improper conduct were investigated over 82 investigations in 2023. Sometimes an investigation can cover a couple of different improper conducts. It would be my opinion that somewhere in and around 100 investigations is probably a sustainable amount for an organisation of the shape and size of the RTB with the process that is provided for in the legislation.

It is important that we build and ramp up our compliance approach in order that we are not just relying on investigations to identify and rectify potential noncompliance but have this alternative cheap, quick and effective way to achieve compliance. That is really the most effective use of our resources.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I understand the point Ms Crimin is making about the compliance approach. In light of the number of properties the RTB is dealing with, however, 100 is only a drop in the ocean. I encourage the RTB to be more ambitious and to consider a higher quantity.

My final question-----

An Cathaoirleach

The Deputy is well over time.

Ms Lucia Crimin

Can I just answer that? It is really important, and we spoke about this earlier when Deputy O'Callaghan asked me a similar question, that the RTB gets to a point of scale in terms of its compliance activity. We are aware that we have around 300,000 tenancies. In that context, conducting investigations is not the best use of our resources but operating at scale, where we identify potential noncompliance and address it, is our priority for the next 18 months, as per our current strategy.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I thank Ms Crimin. I will come back in again later.

An Cathaoirleach

I have to vacate the Chair at 5 p.m. Senator Cummins is going to take over then. I ask for clarity on one point. There were 4,800 notices of termination in quarter 1 of 2024. How many new tenancies were created in the same quarter? Is that information included in the RTB's annual report?

Ms Lucia Crimin

I definitely have that information here.

An Cathaoirleach

It is important when we look at tenancies that end to also look at tenancies that are created, just to give a balanced picture of where we are.

Ms Lucia Crimin

I cannot put my hand on the figure now but-----

An Cathaoirleach

That is okay. I will not put Ms Crimin on the spot with that question-----

Ms Lucia Crimin

About 20,000 tenancies are being registered with the RTB every month.

An Cathaoirleach

How many?

Ms Lucia Crimin

About 20,000 across the different types and we publish those figures on our data hub. The Chairman's point is well made in giving some context. That is the number of applications for registration that come through. It is important not to draw a correlation between those monthly figures and the total size of the register because tenancies are coming on and off all of the time. In terms of the volume of brand new tenancies being commenced and tenancies being renewed, it is in the order of 20,000. The exact figure is on the data hub.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Ms Crimin. That is helpful. Senator Cummins is next.

Senator John Cummins

A breakdown of the number of new tenancies versus renewed tenancies would be useful to have.

Ms Lucia Crimin

That is presented on the data hub. In quarter 1 of 2024, we had almost 48,000 renewals and almost 18,000 new tenancies. That is for a full quarter.

Senator John Cummins

There were 18,000 new tenancies----

Ms Lucia Crimin

Brand new tenancies, yes.

Senator John Cummins

Plus 48,000 renewals. They are very significant figures. It is important to put the 4,800 notices of termination into context vis-à-vis the figure of 18,000. We hear figures quoted all of the time but it is only the figure for notices of termination that is referred to and the figure for new tenancies is never referred to in the media or in political discussions on this issue. In terms of communications around this issue, maybe that is something the RTB can highlight in its reports going forward. It is important that both data sets are laid out clearly alongside each other. Otherwise, a distorted picture emerges of the sector.

Mr. Owen Keegan

That is very important. As I mentioned earlier, every two or three years we do a very detailed tenant survey and there are very high satisfaction rates among tenants with their experience of renting.

Senator John Cummins

Only 2% or 3% of tenancies end in dispute.

Mr. Owen Keegan

Yes, only 3% have a negative experience.

Senator John Cummins

It is important to say that.

Mr. Owen Keegan

The media coverage tends to focus, and rightly so, on the very bad experiences but the vast majority of tenants do not have any negative experiences. Only 3% had a negative experience of renting overall. We need to give some context on how the sector operates, despite all of the pressures.

Senator John Cummins

Context is always important but it is often lost.

I have often said this but it seems to be ignored. In regard to the discussion between the CSO and the RTB on the dataset, when they were in previously I said that tenancies of family members are not captured in the data. It is not a requirement for registration. Is that a significant figure? I am asking the RTB to speculate but given the exercise that has been under way, I thought it was a significant number. Has the RTB an opinion on that?

Ms Lucia Crimin

I would not say it is a significant figure but certainly it surfaced during the analysis. It would not be appropriate to say much more than that, only to reuse a well trotted-out phrase at this stage that not everything that looks like a tenancy is a tenancy that is registered with the RTB. All of that surfaced through the analysis with the CSO and the RTB. When I said earlier that very detailed analysis had taken place, that we are very confident and are in the whole process, I really do mean that. The CSO took this work very seriously and worked closely with us in understanding such issues. I have no comment as to the quantum or the significance, only to say that it did surface during the analysis.

Senator John Cummins

It did surface. In regard to the periodic inspection of private rental tenancies, some local authorities have been more effective at that than others. Mr. Keegan can perhaps comment in his previous capacity in relation to that also. While local authorities have been proactive I have actually encountered two instances which are particularly problematic. I can see how they occurred. The local authority clearly used the dataset from the RTB to identify the private rental tenancy but in the intervening period since it accessed the dataset to inspect the property, it had subsequently been sold. In one particular case there was the death of the former tenant, who had purchased the property. It caused great distress. An inspection was sent out from the agent on behalf of the local authority looking to inspect the property at the address of the deceased, who was the former tenant but subsequent purchaser of the property. I see how it happened. How can we overcome that? Is there a live database that local authorities can access or is it based on the previous two quarters or something to that effect? If it is based on former data, such incidents could happen.

Ms Lucia Crimin

We provide datasets to the local authorities. We accept that the quality of that data in the past was not as up to date or as accurate as it could have been. Since the introduction of manual registration we are seeing, and it is reported back to us by the local authorities, that the quality is vastly improved. That continues to improve, month on month and quarter on quarter. As I mentioned earlier, defunct tendencies and ended tendencies are now being automatically removed from our system. Heretofore-----

Senator John Cummins

That might take 12 months. If, for example, I registered a tenancy in January 2024 and the property is sold to the tenant or another person in June 2024, they could get an inspection in July, August, September or October up to the following January.

Ms Lucia Crimin

They could. I appreciate the sensitivity. It is very distressing to family members in the scenario the Senator mentioned there.

It is very important to note that the RTB's register is based on self-reported data from landlords or agents with annual registration. To the Senator's point, with annual registration, there is a maximum of a 12-month interval between updates.

Senator John Cummins

In my head I was trying to try to solve the issue. I see how it happened and there can be that lag. I was thinking of the property price register Senator Moynihan referenced earlier on. That is a de facto register that the property has been sold. Could that be incorporated into the RTB's system so that registered tenancies are cross-referenced with what sold and an earlier indication could be given to the local authority that it is no longer a rental property?

Ms Lucia Crimin

I will make two quick points on that. Technically, down the line, it will be possible to take another dataset and match it to ours. Just because a property is sold does not mean the tenancy ends. There is a complexity to it. I said I appreciate the sensitivity of the particular matter. While the obligation is on landlords and agents to register the tenancy on an annual basis or when a new tenancy is created, there is also an obligation on the landlord or the agent to update the details.

Senator John Cummins

They do when the property is sold.

Ms Lucia Crimin

I appreciate that when a landlord is deceased and there are complexities with the estate, I can see how it might happen. Certainly, we try to do our absolute best in situations like that but ultimately we are maintaining a register of self-reported data.

I should point out that the feedback from the local authorities is much more positive than it was. There was serious frustration on the part of individual local authorities sending out inspectors to conduct inspections-----

Senator John Cummins

Of a property that was not let.

Ms Lucia Crimin

Exactly. There is far less negative feedback on that front.

Senator John Cummins

As with politicians, you do not get the positive side-----

Ms Lucia Crimin

Sometimes we do.

Senator John Cummins

Just fewer problems or fewer queries coming at you.

An Cathaoirleach

I might depart the Chair on a positive note. I thank the witnesses for their attendance today. Senator Cummins will take the Chair. I recognise improvement when I see it, compared with when the RTB first came before the committee. The improvement we see and hear about today is in that research and evidence gathering it has been doing. I look forward to that report from the CSO. I am glad to see a commitment on that being delivered. I hear the IT system has stabilised. I recognise that further improvements are needed there and the importance of those mediations and dispute timelines. I recognise fully that doing those as quickly as possible is best outcome for everybody. It is positive that those response times for emails and the phone lines are very good and really helpful for tenants. It is also good for landlords who need the services of the RTB to know there is a good turnaround.

I thank the RTB witnesses and staff as well, as they are instrumental in doing this. Notwithstanding what we said earlier about the majority of tenancies having a good experience, for me what remains the biggest challenge for renters is affordability of rents. That is one of the biggest challenges out there as well as the delivery of cost rental. The figure for cost rental was given earlier on and it was much lower than we would want to see. We hope to see many multiples of that over the next ten to 15 years.

Senator Cummins took the Chair.

Deputy Thomas Gould

A figure was given earlier of 4,810 for the first quarter of 2024. The point was made as to how there were 48,000 renewals and in the same quarter there were 18,000 new tenancies. How many tenancies were lost in that period? I am trying to get the whole figure. Obviously, some tenancies would have become defunct in the first quarter.

Ms Lucia Crimin

We are still in a period of flux with the new requirement to register tenancies annually. If I can remember the figure we reported at the end of 2022 for private tendencies was around 246,000. This year then we are saying 223,000.

I think it is too early to say what the size of the private tenancy register is. In another couple of years I think it will stabilise and settle.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I hear what Ms Crimin is saying but if we have the figures for how many renewals there are, how many are new and how many notices to quit there are, there should also be a figure for how many have stopped.

Ms Lucia Crimin

Yes, I think it is also-----

Deputy Thomas Gould

Some tenancies might just go on their own. The tenant might move out, someone might pass away or whatever the reason and the tenancy might not keep going. If Ms Crimin does not have that figure today, that is fine.

Ms Lucia Crimin

We can get the figures but what I can say is not every notice of termination submitted to us actually results in the termination of a tenancy. Sometimes things can change in the intervening period. You cannot really equate-----

Mr. Owen Keegan

With regard to the figures I gave earlier, in 70% of cases, there was no change in the tenancy. It was the same landlord and the same tenant in almost-----

Deputy Thomas Gould

I know that but there are some tenancies that do stop.

Mr. Owen Keegan

Obviously, we have the inflows and the stock, so we can come back to the Deputy with that figure.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I thank Mr. Keegan. On the 4,810 notices to quit in the first quarter of this year, the point was made that not all of those might have ended up with a person leaving the property. Are we saying those 4,810 were all valid or are we saying what proportion of them were valid?

Mr. Owen Keegan

We do not validate those notices. We only validate notices of termination essentially when they become the subject of a dispute, and that would be a very small proportion. In certain circumstances where we are asked by a local authority, for example, in the case of a potentially homeless family, whether it is valid, we will give an informed view-----

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator John Cummins)

Or a tenant in situ.

Mr. Owen Keegan

Or a tenant in situ if we are-----

Ms Louise Loughlin

I think all we can really confirm is the NOT was served on us at the appropriate time. That is what the Act provides for. The legislation does not allow for the RTB itself to form a view as to the validity of an NOT.

Deputy Thomas Gould

Yes. I know that much of the data released by the RTB is very positive. I keep a close eye on it. I think the Chair said it afterwards that with regard to where the RTB was and where it is now, there has been a really good progression and we want to see that continue. Is there additional data regarding disputes? In particular, I am interested in outcomes of disputes county by county. Is it possible to get that kind of a breakdown? It does not necessarily have to be today, although if the witnesses have it today, that is great, but going forward, is that kind of a breakdown available?

Ms Louise Loughlin

One of the issues with the disputes data is that we are dependent on an old ICT system. I do not want to say everything is always about IT systems but that particular query the Deputy has asked is. We would almost have to manually collect that data to break it down by county for outcomes. We might be able to do something. I can certainly give the Deputy a commitment to take it away and have a look at it but it is not something we can easily produce. I know that for sure. It is not how we count the information. If you do not count it that way at the start, it is very hard to produce a report on that basis.

Deputy Thomas Gould

Can a landlord be tax compliant and unregistered?

Ms Louise Loughlin

I think that one is for the Revenue Commissioners.

Deputy Thomas Gould

Okay, fair enough. I look at a figure the witnesses gave earlier that there were 17,000 in non-compliance in 2023. When the RTB wrote out to them - I assume it wrote out to them on email - in 2024, that went down to 1,500.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Thomas Gould

Was it not? I am sorry.

Ms Lucia Crimin

To repeat, we had contacted 17,000 landlords at the end of 2023 where we had a little bit of a reason to believe they might have been non-compliant. When we ran the analysis again in April of this year - five or six months later - we could see the 17,000 number had reduced to 1,500.

There were 15,500, if my maths are correct, where either the tenancy was ended on the system or it was regularised and came into compliance with registration. There are now 1,500 cases we need to look at in careful detail to establish if, in fact, there is non-compliance there, and we put them through our process.

Deputy Thomas Gould

On the 15,500 that Ms Crimin is talking about there, she said some of those were regularised. What does she mean by that?

Ms Lucia Crimin

They have become registered. There is a process provided for under the Residential Tenancies Act. A tenancy can be registered at any time. The legal requirement is to register the tenancy within 30 days of the tenancy commencing, but where that is done after that point in time, a late fee automatically applies. A landlord or agent is not prevented from registering a tenancy at any time but now, since March of this year, they will be charged with a penalty for registering the tenancy late.

Deputy Thomas Gould

Of the 15,500, do we know how many of them were tenancies that were regularised or how many of them finished that-----

Ms Lucia Crimin

I do not have that analysis conducted. I do not have that with me today.

Deputy Thomas Gould

It could be quite possible that a lot of people, because of this, received notices to quit or actually had to leave.

Ms Lucia Crimin

Just to be a little bit careful, I think those 17,000 tenancies would have been accumulating over a little bit of 2022 and into 2023. As I mentioned earlier, when we were trying to deal with the registration system and trying to implement the improvements on that or to stabilise our contact centre, we had to redeploy staff from other parts of the RTB. We had to press pause on that work, so that 17,000 was an accumulated volume. With regard to some of those tenancies, we took a decision not to perform any analysis on them. We just issued those letters. The point the Deputy raised is interesting with regard to seeing when they came into compliance. The ultimate thing that is important is we are now dealing with 1,500 and not 17,000 in potential non-compliance.

Deputy Thomas Gould

What I have seen in my time is that, to get around RPZs, tenants are given notices to quit because their rent might be, let us say, less than what other people would be paying locally. Then the landlord paints the apartment and let it again. I know of cases in Cork, and one building specifically, where the landlord evicted most of the people there because their rent was so low. He did it properly and by the book. He said he was doing work there, and then he charged €300 or €400 extra for each apartment and ended up going into a long-term lease with a local authority. How can we stop that from happening? I get it all the time with regard to what people are paying. There are really good landlords and I recognise that. The vast majority are good, decent people, but sometimes you either get companies or certain landlords who try to maximise the profit because they have looked around. How can we protect tenants from that happening to them?

Ms Lucia Crimin

What I can say to that is that there are very particular exemptions to the RPZ rules, and the bar is actually quite high in terms of the works that would be done to the property. A new bathroom or repainting would not meet the required level to allow that landlord to increase the rent by more than the RPZ rules would allow.

With regard to what we can do about that, I think it is making it very clear what the exemptions are. I fully appreciate tenants can often just be so desperate that they will pay what the landlord is asking. That is not to say it is correct. The RPZ rules were brought in for a reason and landlords need to adhere to those.

As I stated, it is an improper conduct defined under Part 7A and a matter the RTB can investigate but the scale at which it operates will not really be impactful. Those are the regulatory tools we have. It is an improper conduct and we can investigate it but we are also proactively trying to identity potential non-compliance and notify it to the landlord. It is our experience the vast majority of landlords want to comply but where there is deliberate and intentional breaching of the law, that should be investigated and that should be one of the 100 investigations we undertake.

Deputy Thomas Gould

That is the point I made earlier about the 109. I could think of 30 or 40 cases in my constituency alone where that has happened in recent years. That is why I urge the RTB to increase that figure.

Mr. Owen Keegan

It is important that, if Deputies are aware of cases, they bring them to our attention. We have become aware of cases where we believe there has been improper conduct in securing vacant tenure and the properties are being made available to other State agencies. We certainly made it known to those State agencies that they should not deal with those landlords because of the basis on which vacant possession was obtained, whether it is refugee accommodation or local authorities. If we find information, we pass it on to other public bodies to say we are not happy a State agency would deal with these landlords.

Ms Lucia Crimin

If the Deputy has examples, please report them to us and we can analyse them.

Deputy Thomas Gould

When people get the notice to quit and leave, they feel there is no point. They are out of the house and moved on. They feel they are gone and the landlord gets away scot-free. I encourage people to contact the RTB and give it the information.

Ms Lucia Crimin

We would support that.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator John Cummins)

As a number of members are no longer here, I suggest we put that on private meeting correspondence next week, just to mention to the other members that that request was made of us.

Deputy Thomas Gould

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator John Cummins)

We will not keep the witnesses until 6 p.m. It is only Deputy Gould and I.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I have 14 more questions.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator John Cummins)

I hope not, as I gave the Deputy latitude there. I have one final question concerning the end of the dispute resolution process, be it through mediation, adjudication or tribunal. Witnesses referenced the quasi-judicial nature of the RTB. Whatever about the frustrations on both the landlord and the tenant sides about the timelines for the RTB making a decision on a case, there is probably even more frustration about the fact that is not the end of the process. Have there been discussions between the RTB and the Departments of justice and housing about streamlining the end of the process, either by the RTB decision being binding or the decision being implemented in short order? Attached to that, recent criticism was levelled at the RTB about the formal notification of the decision delaying that process.

Mr. Owen Keegan

I will ask Ms Loughlin to talk about what has been looked at by our parent Department. The legislation provides that, in the event of non-compliance with a determination order, people have to go to court. That is not of our choosing. Luckily, not that many cases end up in court. I think Ms Loughlin has the number of requests. Clearly, for those people who have to go to court to get enforcement, there is another challenge and there is the possibility of appealing the decision to the Circuit Court.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator John Cummins)

They are normally the ones with significant financial risks attached.

Ms Louise Loughlin

I will provide some figures for 2023 on the number of parties who sought our assistance to pursue enforcement of the determination order. There were 390 requests to the RTB. The numbers are slightly different because they cross different years but in 2022 we approved 292 of those requests and did not approve 67. There is a slight variance there which can be explained by the fact some of them come in at different points in the year.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator John Cummins)

That is understood.

Ms Louise Loughlin

For 2023, these figures will be slightly out of sync because they are prepared for the annual report in a particular way. There were 50 court orders obtained by the RTB. We can support people with payment of their fees where they make an application to us. Sometimes we support people with documents, that is, their evidence files or other information; other times we pursue it via external legal support.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator John Cummins)

Is there an issue relating to delays in the RTB providing the decision?

Ms Louise Loughlin

Do you mean the production of the determination order?

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator John Cummins)

Yes.

Ms Louise Loughlin

I do not have that in front of me. I know I keep saying the same thing but it is important. What I am trying to achieve is that we publish the end-to-end process, which includes receipt of the determination order. That is the critical point for the individual.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator John Cummins)

Is there a delay between the RTB making a decision and issuing that determination order?

Ms Louise Loughlin

In some areas of dispute, there is a need for improvements. I think-----

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator John Cummins)

Could it be the case, as was publicised recently, that six or seven weeks go by from making a determination to issuing it formally? That seems a bit off. Is that not the case?

Ms Louise Loughlin

I do not think that is quite the case. It is important to remember there are processes that need to be followed. If there is an adjudication hearing, parties have an appeal period after that. They get the decision of the adjudicator, can appeal that and then they will receive the determination order. There are a number of steps involved. I do not have all the timeframes in front of me. I can send them on to the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator John Cummins)

Is the appeal period 21 days?

Ms Louise Loughlin

It is either 14 or 21 days. I do not have it off the top of my head. You have to build all of that in. People say there was another period afterwards, but it is fair process and natural justice that everyone engaging in a judicial process has access to appeal periods. That has to be factored into the timelines. We could definitely be better in explaining that. There is a communication piece to be done so people are nice and clear on the steps involved in a dispute.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator John Cummins)

Here is where the criticism would come in. If it is 14 days, I do not think it would be reasonable for the formal determination order not to be received within 21 days, which is a further week. If it is 21 days, I do not think it would be reasonable for it to be beyond 28 days, where no appeal is made. If it has been received and both parties have been notified of their option to appeal but neither has availed of that option, it should not take more than a week to issue it. It is a certificate, is it?

Ms Louise Loughlin

The determination order is a standardised document but it is a legally binding document so has to be checked to make sure all the information is accurate. If it is inaccurate, that is when there would be real problems with enforcement.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator John Cummins)

Does Ms Loughlin agree a further week is not an unreasonable time where no appeal has been made? Obviously, all bets - pardon the pun - are off where there is an appeal.

Ms Louise Loughlin

Bear in mind we cannot really process it until that two-week period is up.

With how long it takes to check all the information, produce the document and send it out to parties, a week is quite short. I do not think it is-----

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator John Cummins)

Is it? I think that is an area where there is justifiable criticism.

Ms Louise Loughlin

To be clear, I am not saying I do not agree with the Chair that we should improve or look at it. I am speaking about where the RTB is right now with all the processes we have to deliver in disputes. I do not think that is the main kernel of the issue. It is much broader and about improving operational processes across the board. That is one of the features of it. If you were only waiting an additional week, having had quite a quick process the whole way through, that would be okay. The whole thing is the problem. I am not disagreeing with the Chair on that at all.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator John Cummins)

Could Ms Loughlin commit to-----

Ms Louise Loughlin

I will not commit to something I cannot deliver on. I am not trying to be evasive. It is just to be fair to the staff who are working really hard. We want to deliver something. We are doing a lot of work in this space at the moment. I am happy to come back at a later stage when I have more information to give on it. We are at a critical point with it right now.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator John Cummins)

Okay. Could the RTB commit to a two-week period? Surely that can be done here? I think that is far too long, Mr. Keegan.

Mr. Owen Keegan

Could we come back to the committee in writing?

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator John Cummins)

Please.

Mr. Owen Keegan

I do not have a full understanding. We will specifically come back on that issue.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator John Cummins)

Has the dialogue with the Department of Justice occurred? The witnesses have identified 390 difficult cases.

Ms Louise Loughlin

I would definitely agree with that analysis.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator John Cummins)

They are the ones that are-----

Ms Louise Loughlin

That are surfacing. Absolutely. It is really a matter for our parent Department and other Departments if they want to change the overall approach, as the Chair set out. One thing we have been doing with our colleagues in housing and elsewhere is looking at the process for strengthening and improving the enforcement of determination orders, so once they come out of the District Court or elsewhere, the actual enforcement is more straightforward. It is a bit convoluted at the moment. I cannot really go into any more detail because it is all in the mix of the Bill the Department is working on, but we have given active consideration to it with our parent Department for the reasons the Chair set out.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator John Cummins)

In what way does Ms Loughlin mean? Let us say a decision is issued and goes to the District Court, which upholds the RTB's decision. Is Ms Loughlin saying there are still difficulties after that? I would not be aware of that.

Ms Louise Loughlin

Like any decision from a court or a court order, if you want to enforce it, you have to follow through with certain steps. If you take it out of the context of the RTB, if it is a debt or something like that, you might have to follow through on certain processes, call in the sheriff or such. It is more on that side of it. Those are very difficult cases. I cannot really go into it because it is part of the ongoing discussions between the Department and us.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator John Cummins)

It will obviously come back to the committee in the context of that legislation. I call Deputy Gould for the last ten questions.

Deputy Thomas Gould

What we see now when people get notices to quit is that they feel they will be out with nowhere to go. I have heard stories of where local authorities have advised people who have reached their date to be out to overstay. I personally know many people who have overstayed, are overstaying or will overstay if they cannot find alternative accommodation. When a person overstays, the landlord has to take legal action to bring that person to court.

Does the RTB get involved at that stage? Does the landlord go to the RTB to say that tenants are overstaying, that they are still paying their rent, that there are no issues or antisocial behaviour, but that they have nowhere else to go?

Mr. Owen Keegan

We deal with many of those cases. Earlier, I alluded to how I think those cases arise because people genuinely have nowhere to go. The tenant may have no choice. There may be no dispute about the validity. The tenant may submit a dispute on the basis that the notice of termination is not valid. The landlord may then put in a dispute saying that somebody is overholding. We get many of those disputes. I suspect that in a less pressurised rental market, they would not be coming to those.

Deputy Thomas Gould

Has the RTB no idea how many of those it is dealing with? The point Mr. Keegan makes is valid. If there were supply, at least the tenant could then move on to somewhere else, whether rental, cost-rental, affordable or social housing, but if there is a lack of supply, it creates these issues. I deal with people who really respect their landlords and feel their landlords have been fair to them, but their option now is to become homeless or go into emergency accommodation. One or two of these people might be working and their kids might be in school. It creates work for the RTB that it maybe never factored in.

Ms Louise Loughlin

There were 1,408 applications to the RTB for dispute resolution for overholding cases for last year, which is 14%. That percentage is consistent over the past three years. In 2021, it was 12%. In 2022, it was 14%. Last year, it was 14%. However, the overall volume has increased because the overall volume of dispute applications has increased. I do not have the data to break down where that is a tenant who has nowhere else to go. We have not done any analysis of that.

Mr. Owen Keegan

They would be cases where they are overholding but there are no rent arrears. They would probably describe the circumstances the Deputy outlined.

Deputy Thomas Gould

If there is a good landlord who has given notice to quit and has done everything right, with a tenant who has done everything right, paid his or her bills and been a good tenant, there is a dispute where they should not be a dispute because there is a lack of supply. I am noticing that people are overstaying, waiting for the landlord to take them to court, and then a month or a number of weeks beforehand, they are leaving. Does the RTB have any statistics for how many go that far?

Ms Louise Loughlin

We do not have those statistics. I think I was saying earlier that they are the applications we receive. In total last year, we received around 9,900 applications for disputes, but the number that go all the way to an adjudication hearing and result in a determination order are a good bit lower than that. A glut of people self-resolve. Just by virtue of lodging a dispute application, the case is then resolved, either by the parties talking to each other, through political representation to resolve it, or through our own early intervention service. They do not all result in full hearings.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I thank the Chair and witnesses.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator John Cummins)

Done? I thank Deputy Gould.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I am not done but I think it is fair-----

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator John Cummins)

Exactly. I thank Ms Loughlin, Ms Crimin and Mr. Keegan for being here. I reiterate the comments of the Cathaoirleach, Deputy Matthews, about the progress that is clearly being made by the organisation. I thank the staff of the RTB for the progress that is being made.

We will continue to hold them to account for the timelines that we all want to improve in the time ahead. I thank the witnesses for their time and we look forward to engaging with them again.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.35 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 9 July 2024.