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Joint Committee on Housing, Planning and Local Government debate -
Thursday, 22 Mar 2018

Project Ireland 2040: Discussion

At the request of the broadcasting and recording services, members and visitors in the Public Gallery are requested to ensure that for the duration of the meeting, their mobile phones are turned off completely or switched to aeroplane, safe or flight mode depending on their device. It is not sufficient to put one's phone on silent as this will maintain a level of interference with the broadcasting system.

The next item is consideration of the Project Ireland 2040 plan. On behalf of the committee I welcome from the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government, Mr. Niall Cussen, Mr. Paul Hogan and Ms Alma Walsh, whom we are all familiar with, and who are regular visitors to, the committee.

I wish to draw witnesses' attention to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if a witness is directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in regard to a particular matter and continues to do so, he or she is entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of his or her evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I wish to advise the witnesses that the opening statement and any other documents they have submitted to the committee may be published on the committee website after the meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I call on Mr. Cussen to make his opening statement.

Mr. Niall Cussen

We thank the committee for the opportunity to meet with it today to discuss Project Ireland 2040, including the national planning framework, NPF, which our Department has lead responsibility for. I am accompanied by Mr. Paul Hogan, who is the project manager for the NPF, and Ms Alma Walsh, one of our team of planning advisers. Our remarks focus on the national planning framework aspect of Project Ireland 2040, including its linkages as well with the national development plan, NDP, under the overall banner of Project Ireland 2040.

As members of the committee will be well aware, the NPF sets a long-term strategic planning framework for Ireland over the next 20 years, setting out some key principles in relation to better managing the future population growth of 1 million extra people, an extra over 660,000 people at work and an additional 500,000 extra homes required.

The big innovation in Project Ireland 2040 is the integration of planning with future capital investment. Crucially, the NPF and the ten-year NDP investment strategy have been fully aligned. There is a €116 billion capital investment programme. Both the programme and the planning framework are founded on ten national strategic outcomes shared between both documents and designed to: deliver more balanced and sustainable regional development; timely enhancement of the infrastructure required to meet the needs of the country; and meet challenges and headwinds, including climate change, Brexit and so on. We have worked very closely with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and we are very confident that all the planned capital investment under the NDP will directly or indirectly support the achievement of the strategic outcomes. From our Department's point of view, particular headline elements of the NDP, from a planning point of view, include the establishment of the national regeneration and development agency and €3 billion of investment in urban and rural regeneration and development funding, which will particularly support the NPF's aims around compact urban development and the continued development and vitality of rural communities, particularly smaller towns and villages that face a lot of challenges today. Progression of these initiatives is a particular priority for us in terms of implementation in the weeks and months ahead.

I will turn to that broader issue of implementation. Subsequent to the publication of the NPF a little more than a month ago, our Department has now written to all local authorities, regional assemblies and An Bord Pleanála notifying them that the NPF constitutes national planning policy in accordance with section 2 of the Planning and Development Act 2000, as amended, and all other relevant provisions of the Act. Also, recognising that the NPF is the first part of a broader updating of Ireland’s strategic planning policy frameworks to be followed by preparation of regional spatial and economic strategies, RSESs, of which members will be aware, our team has spent much of its time since the launch sitting down with the regional assemblies, the local authorities as well as a broad range of other interested stakeholders, addressing their questions, their queries and so on and seeking out views on the building of a comprehensive implementation strategy.

As members of the committee will also be aware, the Planning and Development (Amendment) Bill 2016 is currently on Committee Stage in the Seanad and will, in line with the recommendations of the Mahon tribunal, put in place a statutory process for the regular review and updating of the national planning framework, much as is the case for other tiers of Ireland’s planning policy hierarchy at present. Moreover, to ensure a swift and coherent translation of the content of the NPF and regional spatial and economic strategies into the statutory local authority development plans, which, as the committee members will know, can take several years to come up for review depending on when their preparation was commenced, there is an amendment in the Bill to recalibrate development plan review timings to ensure that imminent reviews are held over until such time as the updated policies and metrics from the NPF, the RSES process and so on are available and that plans adopted in recent years also are brought in for variations to update them accordingly.

With the initial briefings and stakeholder engagement being almost complete, and necessarily that was quite an intensive programme, we sat down, directly or indirectly, with all the 31 local authorities and so on. We are now moving into more strategic issues of implementation, including working directly with the regional assemblies and the local authorities in terms of the preparation and the conclusion of the regional spatial economic strategies by or shortly after the end of this year.

Another priority is to develop an effective framework with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to ensure implementation as part of the wider Project Ireland 2040 process and the associated governance and oversight. This includes arrangements for cross-departmental and stakeholder co-ordination. Meetings will take place today and in the coming weeks in that regard. The gathering of key data and monitoring systems is important. We have significant brownfield development targets and we have to develop the way we measure them in practice. We need to ensure that the data gathering process feeds into the overall implementation process to create an agile, responsive and outcome-based implementation approach.

We need to work on the development of the options and on putting in place arrangements for the establishment of the national regeneration and development agency. We have to finalise certain operational and evaluation elements of the proposed regeneration and development funds in conjunction with our colleagues in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and the Department of Rural and Community Development. The process includes taking on board views of relevant stakeholders, such as the local authorities, which will ultimately administer these funds.

We are a little over a month into the implementation of a strategy that looks out over the next 20 years. Although we are at an early stage in the implementation process, it is gathering pace. I wish to emphasise that we welcome the views of the committee on these and related matters. The committee has provided great assistance to us in the past with committee input for the national planning framework. We are before the committee as much to discuss the different issues or different emphasis that the committee may wish to see in the implementation process. We are happy to come back on these areas as we develop more detail on the implementation process. Mr. Hogan, Ms Walsh and I are happy to take any questions or discuss any issues that committee members may wish to raise with us.

I thank Mr. Cussen and the team for coming in today. We have gone through much of this ground ourselves. I can only speak for myself in the Seanad but I know it is the same in the Dáil. On a personal level, I welcome the national planning framework and the plan. I believe it is a positive plan. The national strategic outcomes envisaged are all positive. We talk about compact growth, enhanced regional accessibility, strengthening and empowering rural economies and sustainable mobility. I am keen to touch on some of the issues, including: the need for a strong economy; supporting enterprise, innovation and skills; rural housing and urban housing; and how to operate within the master plan. Certainly, some people will not be happy with it, but at least it is a plan and something that is committed. It is not all going to materialise. It is like any county development plan in that it does not all happen, but at least it can be amended, adjusted or tweaked. That is important.

Under the plan we refer to enhanced zones. The Department has dealt comprehensively with amenities, heritage and transport. I am supportive of the general broad outcome and the national strategic objectives of the plan. However, when we consider the strategic investment priorities things get a little more complex and that is important to note. We know we have to increase some areas. We have a housing crisis and we have to increase housing. The planners have referred to that and to sustainable development, urban development and rural development. I have dealt with enterprise and the capacity to grow our enterprise and our economy in future. That is all set out in the plan. I have already touched on matters of culture, heritage and sport.

On the face of it, it is a good plan. It is a brave political establishment or grouping that would set out and commit to these objectives. The main question now is how the plan matches funding in future in terms of how we roll out the capital funding for the plan. Another aspect is how we co-ordinate the plan with all 31 local authorities.

Mr. Cussen touched on this point. We have 31 local authorities. How do we ensure coherent translation of the plan into policy? The Department officials will be aware that we have city and county development plans throughout the 31 local authorities. They are all running on different timelines in all 31 local authorities. How will the Department set out how these can be dovetailed? There will have to be changes in county development plans and structures following these plans. I am keen to know the views on that.

Mr. Cussen said that, subsequent to publication on 16 February last by the Government, the Department has written to local authorities, regional assemblies and An Bord Pleanála notifying them that the national planning framework constitutes national planning policy in accordance with section 2 of the Planning and Development Act. The policy has not yet been approved by Dáil Éireann, Seanad Éireann or the Houses of the Oireachtas. That is simply a point I want to make. I am not entering into that debate, but there was an expectation that the national planning framework would be adopted by both Houses and that has not happened. Anyway, the Department officials are telling us now that they have written to the relevant people notifying them that the framework is now the policy. This is something Department officials might bear in mind. There was an expectation that the Houses of the Oireachtas would approve the framework, yet all 31 local authorities have been told this is the policy. I recommend that the Department official bear that in mind.

I am keen for the Department to take the lead in promoting, educating and supporting officials in local authorities in planning. The Department should do likewise for the elected members. There are approximately 990 councillors in the country. They need to be empowered and enthused about how this plan will be rolled out in their areas. They are stakeholders. We are all stakeholders in this plan. I call on the officials to go back and consider working through the Association of Irish Local Government or the Local Authority Members Association as well as regional meetings within local authorities to determine how the Department can assist them to understand and support the plan. Everyone is a partner in this process.

I am supportive. It is a good plan and in the absence of any other plan we should proceed with this one.

Mr. Niall Cussen

We are happy to take several contributions together. It would help to get a sense of the views. There may be recurring issues and we can try to address them.

That is fine. Members should be aware that we got legal advice last night on the framework in respect of whether it needed to be approved. We really do not want to go back over that question.

I want to make it clear that we are not going over that. The committee has clarified that point already.

I will start where Deputy Ó Broin finished off. I am not going to get into the legal decision. I fully understand that the final plan is a decision by the Government and I accept that. However, it is clear from the interactions in the Dáil Chamber that it is rather different. The Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and the Minister indicated a view on three different occasions. The Taoiseach said that this was brought to the House. There was a vote on the draft. The vote took place in November of last year. Clearly, that did not happen. The Taoiseach then went on to say that if there was no vote it was because no one opposed something. That is incorrect. The Tánaiste came in the day after and made a statement about public consultation. We all agree with that. That did happen. He said that the debate on the national planning framework ran out of speakers. In fact, we did not run out of speakers. It is still on the Order of Business to return to statements on the national planning framework. The Minister for Housing, Planning and Local Government, Deputy Murphy, then came in and clearly said there was a vote on the matter.

In fairness to the committee, which has worked on this matter, we need to set the record straight. I have no problem in saying that the final plan is a Government decision and we do not have a say in that. However, it is incorrect for the Minister for Housing, Planning and Local Government, Deputy Murphy, to say he acted in the spirit of the legislation. What the Taoiseach said is incorrect and what the Tánaiste said is incorrect. I think we need clarification from them on the matter.

I will move forward. I wish to make some quick observations in respect of the process. I come from a councillor background and I have gone through three county development plans. Under the process we looked at the draft plan, then made variations to the draft plan and put it back on public display. This is where the national planning framework falls down. I acknowledge the vast amount of work that Department officials had to do in a short period. However, in not putting the amendments of the national planning framework back out for consultation we could have unintended consequences. This is because we have not dug down to analyse exactly the intention of some of the policies, some of which have now been adopted and in legislation.

Another weakness is that we cannot vary the national planning framework. We have a review in six years' time but we cannot vary it in the meantime. If something is clearly not working, there is no legal mechanism in the process to vary that aspect or policy. Perhaps it is something we could address in future.

Let us get more into the technical part of it. The major question relating to my area is population. I acknowledge that there has been movement from the draft plan to the adopted plan and the Department has taken out the caps on towns and villages with regard to how much they can grow. Have we not simply, in one sense, kicked the can down the road? Who will dictate population growth? Where will it be? Will the regional plan dictate where population growth is going?

In the county development plan for Wicklow which was adopted last year potential population growth is much higher than what we can achieve under the national planning framework. We have to return to the core strategy and ask if the current plan can be continued with for six years if a fundamental aspect - potential population growth - is incorrect. What will happen in that process?

I will speak briefly about the issue of rural housing. I acknowledge and welcome the inclusion of the social clause, about which I spoke to Mr. Cussen. However, the only time in the planning process when a decision that affects an individual is dealt with via a local authority is when one is dealing with a one-off rural house. Normally the local authority deals with large-scale developments or applications involving multiple houses. This is the only time when there is personal interaction with the local authority. How am I supposed to explain the housing need and demand assessment to people who are applying for permission to build a rural house? If one qualifies via social or economic need, that should be enough. There is no need to distinguish between urban and non-urban shadow. If one qualifies to build a rural house by having a social and economic need, that should be enough. When we talk about rural areas, we are looking at areas with a population of under 1,500. There might be unintended consequences where we might actually have opened up the potential to have one-off rural houses on a wider scale than what would have applied under our county development plan.

As a commuter county that is coming under huge pressure, the national development plan is a total disaster from a transport point of view. After this meeting I will discuss with Mr. Cussen a recent communication with Transport Infrastructure Ireland and Wicklow County Council. Who is driving the bus? Anyone reading this will be shocked. It will have huge consequences in terms of potential population growth. I thought that we had addressed the TII issue and that it had to acknowledge the spatial strategy, regional and county plans, but it is clear that it is driving the bus in this endeavour and that County Wicklow can go hump it. It got nothing in the national development plan, apart from the promise of a Luas connection in 2027. We have a DART connection. The only thing the national development plan promised for County Wicklow was maintaining existing services. There is no vision of including Arklow and Wicklow in the rail network. It is only at a figure of 30% capacity between Arklow and Greystones. There is capacity to add more services, but the plan does not provide for this.

I welcome the departmental officials and thank the joint committee for taking on board my recommendation that Drogheda be added to the national development plan. It would not have happened without the support of people like Senator Victor Boyhan. I also compliment the officials for listening to me. As they know, I do not always agree with them and vice versa, but in this case they have got it right, certainly as far as my community in Drogheda is concerned. It was not mentioned in the original plan and there was a huge public outcry locally about it. Perhaps the delegates might tell us how many representations or individual submissions were received from Drogheda. Local people, including those involved in the Drogheda City Status Group, recommended that others make their voices heard and that is what happened. Drogheda is now mentioned 11 times in the plan. The planning is correct, unlike what has happened in other areas. Planning and developing large centres of population and employment creation along the economic corridor, including, in particular, in Drogheda and Dundalk, are hugely important factors for my community. They are the two biggest towns in the country - Drogheda being the biggest - and now at the centre of the national development plan, whereas they were not included heretofore. The regional assemblies should decide what will happen in them to achieve growth and it should be based on what is contained in this framework. The regional assemblies cannot change it and must work to it. It is important that towns such as Drogheda and Dundalk be clearly earmarked for development, which process will take place through the framework.

I note from the comments of the delegates that the planning Bill which is going through the Seanad will be amended to include recognition of the plan. Will that apply to bodies such as TII, as Deputy Pat Casey mentioned? Will it apply to bodies such as Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland? Drogheda is now a growth centre for employment, whereas previously it was not. It is hugely important that the statutory or semi-state bodies dovetail their thinking on exactly what Deputy Pat Casey said. There is no point in having a plan if TII is not cognisant of it.

At the same time a capital investment plan was published which was separate from the national development plan. The key to it for Drogheda is the fact that the DART service is to be extended to the town and that the process will literally be fast-tracked with the hybrid diesel-electric trains to be used once they are delivered and electrification will then follow. That is hugely important. Capacity from Drogheda by rail is approximately 1,200 to 1,300 passengers per day, but each DART train will have the potential to carry over 1,000 passengers. The potential for growth is huge and absolute and clearly recognised in the plans published. As Chairman of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport, I offer to meet the Chairman of this committee and Deputy Pat Casey to discuss these issues. Deputies would be welcome at such a meeting, as would anyone who wanted to come along, to ensure transport planning kept pace with population growth. If it does not, we will have more frustrated people in motorcars travelling longer journeys. That is why the plan has to work.

This is a new dawn for Drogheda and County Louth. The cross-Border commitment contained within the plan will be hugely beneficial for our communities. Just over 2 million people live on this corridor and it is important that their potential be recognised. I appreciate that this is not the responsibility of the officials present, but the question arises of local government reform and recognising the change in urban population growth, which will be very significant. The designation of Drogheda as a large centre of population means that we will have to change the position on local government as there is no council in place. The corporation was abolished. I know that it was done by the Government party of which I am a member after the disastrous Fianna Fáil-led Governments which destroyed the economy.

(Interruptions).

I had to get that in and was just checking that members are awake. The point is that the needs of places such as Drogheda as a significant regional growth centre will have to be addressed in the context of local government reform. The conundrum which has not yet been resolved and is hugely pressing locally is that it extends across two boundaries, the boundaries of County Louth and County Meath. We have to find a formula that will leave Meath men wearing their county jersey at the occasional All-Ireland final-----

The Deputy is assuming Meath will get to an All-Ireland final.

They first have to get through the game between Louth and Meath. The plan recognises the individuality and identity of each county. To develop a centre for shopping, recreation, amenities and education services we have to find a formula that will work because there is a total disconnect between east Meath and Navan and east Meath and Drogheda. We are much closer together than the boundary that divides us. We need to solve that problem.

I acknowledge the extent to which Mr. Cussen and his team have made themselves available to us, not just at the committee but also informally at a variety of meetings since this process started.

That has been very helpful, and I want to record my thanks.

I acknowledge, as I did in the debate, that there have been some changes in the final published version on the earlier draft such as greater inclusion of the north west, a little more on the all-Ireland dimension - Deputy Fergus O'Dowd mentioned the eastern border corridor - and a more balanced approach to regional development. I am still of the view that the plan is deficient, and my questions raise four key strategic concerns about it. I endorse everything Deputy Casey said about the politicking around the vote. Mr. Cussen should be aware that the battle over securing an Oireachtas vote on that is not over. He will be hearing from us soon on the back of the legal opinion the committee got yesterday because many of us are still of the view, notwithstanding that it is a matter for the Minister and not for the witnesses, that given the importance of this plan there must be an Oireachtas vote on it, and we will be pursuing that via the Seanad and when the Planning and Development (Amendment) Bill comes back to the Dáil.

My questions relate to four issues. When the plan was announced, the Minister promised that 75% of the population growth would be outside Dublin and 50% of the population growth would be outside the five major cities, but what many of us raised throughout the consultation process is that more than half the population growth, from objective 1b in the document - between 490,000 and 540,000 additional people - will be in the Dublin eastern midlands region. The question is how we prevent that dramatic population growth from being concentrated in Dublin and the commuter belt and affecting all the commuter belt area. It is all very well to say it is meant to be for a larger area and that we want a significant portion of that to repopulate the urban core of Dublin city, which I support, but the fear is that if the plan at the macro level and the capital programme alongside it do not get a number of issues right, we will have an over-concentration on Dublin, particularly the western suburbs and the commuter belt counties around it. That is a real concern, and I have yet to hear anybody explain to me how that is to be avoided. That is my first question.

The second question is related to that, which is that in the context of that growth, and even if that growth happens in an appropriately planned way, I am very concerned about the weakness of the public transport elements of the plan. To give Mr. Cussen an example, as he is aware, in my constituency of Dublin Mid-West we have the Clonburris strategic development zone, a hugely important master plan for up to 8,000 social and affordable houses to be delivered over a ten-year period. We are expecting that plan to be finalised via An Bord Pleanála at the end of this year. If we look at the public infrastructure element of the framework and the capital plan, the major public infrastructure pieces for that part of the city will not be delivered until after those 8,000 houses have been delivered. For example, in terms of the Lucan Luas, the metro and some of the bus connectivity projects, we are looking at those coming at the very end of the capital plan, and possibly beyond. I raise that issue because it is just one example, and Deputy Casey mentioned another in terms of his constituency, where it seems the public transport infrastructure and the investment associated with it are coming significantly later on in the plan. That is a real concern in terms of how we manage that proper integration of population growth, increased housing supply and adequate public transport.

The third question is about one of the areas in the plan with which I am most disappointed, and I have raised it from our very first meeting. There is a spatial dimension to socio-economic disadvantage. We know that from the census figures. I asked at the outset that just as we have maps for population growth, ageing and employment clusters, we map socio-economic disadvantage. I was told at an earlier meeting that we did not want to do that because we did not want to offend the people who might live in those communities. I represent an area that has very substantial clusters of socio-economic disadvantage and those people would be much more concerned if they were ignored, and in this plan they are ignored in the sense that they are not visible. That is significant because if someone is making plans, for example, in terms of the location of infrastructure or the jobs targets, if we are not ensuring that, along with population growth, increased investment and job growth, some of that is targeting those areas where there are higher concentrations of socio-economic disadvantage, it will simply repeat the patterns of disadvantage.

If we take the jobs targets, for example, we have a jobs target in 1c for an additional 225,000 people in employment in the south region but, as we know, the south east has a disproportionate concentration of deprivation and unemployment. This is not just a matter for the regional and local authority plans. It is a strategic matter at the top level. How will the Department deal with that?

In terms of my final question, while I acknowledge there are some improvements in terms of the all-Ireland and north-west dimension, I still believe it is weak. We talk about the north of our country in a section entitled, Working with Our Neighbours, which is also to do with the European Union, although peripherally. How much contact in the latter phases of the development of the plan did the Department have with civil servants and counterparts in the North? What practical and detailed reassurance can Mr. Cussen give the committee in terms of the level of all-Ireland integration of this plan and the benefits that will be accrued from taking a proper all-Ireland approach? At a strategic level, that is very valuable?

Chairman, I have to leave at 10.30 a.m. as I have another engagement but I will get the answers from the blacks afterwards. I apologise.

I want to raise a number of points. The committee would welcome the engagement with Deputy O'Dowd's transport committee. I know I am biased as Chairman but I believe we are a proactive, determined committee. Whether it is to do with Rebuilding Ireland, the national planning framework, NPF, or any of the Bills that come before us, we are a dedicated committee that works very well with the Department. We do not always see eye to eye but we always come to a solution, which is very beneficial.

We are a committee with vast experience. Many of us are former members of local authorities or have been in government for a long time so we have dealt with many local area plans and development plans. Some of us have dealt with strategic development zones. I respect and understand the principles around proper sustainable planning and not ad hoc planning that resulted in ghost estates, dispersed communities and all that goes with that.

One of the key elements that struck me at a very early stage of this process was the figure of 10,000 people commuting from Portlaoise to Dublin for work almost every day. For me, that was to do with a quality of life issue. If most people were spending their time commuting to work in their cars - an hour to go to work and an hour to come home - with all the pressures that go with that in terms of child care and stress, their quality of life is diminished. All of that is underpinned by past irregular planning decisions.

The national planning framework outlines an environment that allows us create the kind of society we want, whether that is in terms of employment, community, recreation or residential living. It has been captured well in terms of the next 22 years. I have not seen anything like it in my 17 years in politics, which I know is not as long a period as that of other members.

I very much welcome the ongoing engagement we had with the Department and the various sectors. I attended many of the public information events and the engagement throughout the country was tremendous, and it did not drop.

I disagree on a number of issues Deputy Ó Broin raised, especially in regard to Clonburris. I can speak, as can Senator Boyhan, about the Cherrywood strategic development zone, SDZ, where we had a Luas passing through fields with no houses around them for a number of years and stations that did not need to be used because we did not have the population. However, as local and national politicians, we set the parameters and infrastructure requirements that have to be adhered to in those SDZs. That responsibility is given to the local authorities and their local representatives for them to vote and decide on the staged mechanism of those SDZs.

I disagree also with what Deputy Ó Broin said about social deprivation, the population and the disparities around that. Education underpins growth, and when we see that 50 large-scale school projects are planned throughout the country, that equates to approximately 1,500 places. That is proper planning. Early-stage proper planning and early intervention create the environment in which people can grow, stay in their areas and be part of their communities.

I welcome the intense emphasis on encouraging foreign direct investment throughout the country and not being Dublin-centric or Leinster-centric.

We are not trying to discourage people from coming to Dublin and Leinster but are trying to disperse them in a proper and sustainable manner. I know there are issues around transport and I agree with Deputy Casey on that point. These are issues around which we need to keep applying pressure, both at national and local levels, to ensure transport is provided in a proper manner.

I very much welcome the protection of the Wild Atlantic Way, which is a very precious resource, and the development that is foreseen around it. I very much welcome the attention to our tier 1 and tier 2 ports and the harnessing of growth and of renewable energy in many ports, particularly in the west, and the fact that the west will provide most of the supply for the east in the future.

I recognise that these are targets and strategies that we have to implement, and it will be difficult to implement them. We are moving to that framework now. As public representatives, whether local, national or European Parliament levels, we have a role to make sure this happens because it will benefit all of us. We must not be parochial. We must look further than our own areas and our own back gardens.

I very much welcome metro north and the connection to the Luas, which is long overdue. Senator Boyhan recalls the smarter travel bids in Sandyford business district, which were very good initiatives to connect our transport hubs, and different transport methods, whether bus, Luas, walking and cycling, such as the bike schemes in Dublin that are being rolled out in other areas. That makes areas attractive for employment and residential development. Nothing in life is ever perfect but this is a substantial plan that lays a very strong foundation to develop the country in the way we want it to develop and that the people who participated in recent years want it to develop.

I did not want to mention the legal advice we got yesterday but my interpretation of it is very different from Deputy Ó Broin's. I suppose legal advice is open to interpretation but I was very clear the whole way through this process. I reaffirm, as the members have, the continuing engagement of the committee on the national planning framework. I also acknowledge the tremendous work that has gone into making it happen and getting it into print, the dedication and hours put into the plan. Sometimes the authors of these plans are unsung heroes and do not get the recognition they deserve. It took tremendous commitment by them, the Department and the many stakeholders to bring it to this point. Now we have to move to its implementation and the onus is on all of us to make sure it happens.

Deputy Pat Casey took the Chair.

Mr. Niall Cussen

The committee has yet again demonstrated its expertise and knowledge because its members have extensive experience in planning and development matters in their areas, working with the legislation and policy. They have always demonstrated a deep understanding of this. The central message in our initial presentation was to get across the sense that we are embarking on an implementation process. It is very important to have regular interaction with the committee, to come back and test out our approaches to implementation with it and seek out its views and guidance on priorities, etc. This is a whole-of-Government initiative and it is one the committee members support directly or indirectly because of the importance of having a strategic plan after the difficult years we have come through. It can always be enhanced, or particular aspects of its implementation can be brought out. It is important to have an agile and a responsive implementation process. This is a very important document but it is only a framework and requires further fleshing out. We are alive to all the issues the committee has raised and need to have continual engagement with the committee on how to grapple with those issues and so on because there is a lot of work to be done.

I will quickly run through some of the contributions made and make one or two comments in response. I will then call on my colleagues to deal with a number of aspects raised. I am happy for the dialogue to continue for as long as the committee wishes.

In response to Senator Boyhan's comments, there is obviously a different forum for that whole Dáil approval piece and the legal advice, to which Deputy Ó Broin alluded. One of the things of which we must be conscious is the fact that to ensure there was a planning framework for capital investment, we had to push on with it. We engaged in as much consultation as we could and reached out far and wide across the country on its development. We need to be conscious that the practicalities and fairness have a retrospective approval process, having listened to, and taken on board, all the views heretofore.

To reassure Senator Boyhan on his key point about capacity-building, I was with the regional assembly in Wexford a couple of weeks ago and spent a long day and evening explaining the plan in detail. We will be at the Local Authorities Members Association, LAMA, conference in Donegal after Easter and we will go wherever we are invited to build that capacity, awareness and understanding of the evolution and implementation of the framework.

The regional spatial economic strategies will be the cockpit for how the more technical aspects of the framework will be worked out. It would be very wrong of us to hand down a tablet of stone from the top, setting out detailed population targets and so on for a 20-year-plus framework. That would be a very unwieldy and rigid system. Much more appropriately the regional assemblies have the scope to work with us around a table and go through those technical aspects.

The planning framework is a place-making strategy. Population targets and figures are important metrics in setting the background to the planning but place-making involves much more than numbers and spreadsheets and setting population targets. Far too often in the past we have embarked on local planning processes that may have set very ambitious growth targets and in many cases, particularly in towns in the commuter belt, we have achieved or exceeded those targets but we know there are many problems on the ground in the way of the adequacy of public services, the fact people do not live and work in the same place and all the pressures that committee members have mentioned in respect of long-distance commuting and so on. Place-making and population targets are not necessarily the same thing. It is very important to get the thinking joined up on that.

I was struck by Deputy Ó Broin’s and Deputy Casey's contributions. I am sure our colleagues in the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport and the transport agencies would support us in saying that there might be a merit in having a joint session on planning and transport integration.

It is important that those elements are in synch and that we use the assets we have to the best of our ability and to the maximum extent possible.

On Clonburris, I might digress but it is related to the point Deputy Casey raised. Previous Governments made the investments etc. We have the good fortune of having invested in upgrades of our mainline rail network. We have a physical infrastructure, as the Deputy alluded to, that is capable of being sweated more. That is happening in Clonburris. While the DART project and the upgrades necessary to deliver that in its full glory will necessarily take some years to put in place because of the engineering and all of that, we have seen signs of good innovative thinking from the transport agencies and the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport. Ordering a fleet of hybrid trains offers a much better operational approach. They can integrate seamlessly with the DART because they can go from diesel power to electric power, obviating the need for people to change trains in places such as Bray.

As members of the committee will know there is an ongoing upgrade which is progressing very well providing more rail services from the west of the city into Connolly Station using the Phoenix Park tunnel and the northern suburban rail line. From talking to my colleagues in the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, I know that is an area that, once fleet enhancements and other bits and pieces are put in place, they have significant plans to augment. It is incorrect to suggest that the progression of a strategic development zone such as Clonburris would have to await the full deployment of the DART upgrade. Many things are being done in the interim.

Deputy Casey asked about the capacity of infrastructure and whether we are aligning that infrastructure correctly with focused, prioritised, proper plan-led development in Wicklow or wherever it is in the greater Dublin area. There may be merit in having a joint session involving our colleagues from the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport. It is always good to get transport planners, spatial planners, and decision and policy-makers such as members of the committee together in the one room. It is very important to have a joined-up approach.

Deputy O'Dowd asked about Drogheda. My comments on the regional strategy teasing that out in more detail address that as part of the regional, spatial and economic strategy process. IDA Ireland and the development agencies have bought into that process and are obliged to follow that process through with their own strategies and so on. Ms Walsh will give more detail on the public consultation process and the metrics regarding the east, the Dublin to Belfast corridor, Drogheda and so on.

Deputy Ó Broin raised some concerns about the Dublin population increase landing maybe in the western suburbs and outlying commuter areas. Mr. Hogan might deal with this in more detail. The planning framework is very ambitious for actually landing considerably more of that within the city core, within the canal ring and within the existing built-up area. That speaks to our plans for the regeneration agency and getting a better bang for the State's buck out of the publicly owned lands we already have, particularly across the broader State-owned enterprise landscape etc.

I understand the Deputy's concerns. That was motivating us in the first place to have an ambitious strategy for urban consolidation, compact urban growth and so on. It would not be a good outcome for the planning framework if the growth of Dublin were to effectively land to the west or pushing out into the outlying areas.

I spoke about the public transport issue. Mr. Hogan will deal with the question about spatial dimension to social disadvantage, where it is to be addressed and so on. Mr. Hogan and Ms Walsh might also deal with the all-island dimension and our engagement with our colleagues in the Northern system and where that is going.

I hope that is a reasonably comprehensive overview. Deputy Casey also asked about HDNA and rural and so forth. I ask Mr. Hogan to pick up on some of those points. That was just a sweep through and I might have missed a good few things.

Mr. Paul Hogan

I will pick up on some of the things Mr. Cussen mentioned. The national planning framework is just the first stage. In looking towards implementation, we have characterised it now as being the end of the beginning, as it were. We are now trying to put in place a roadmap on how this will be implemented. As it stands, we only have the national tier piece of the jigsaw in place. We have to work through with the regions, local authorities and the local government sector as the next stage. That will not happen overnight; it will take the rest of this year into early next year for the regional strategies to be put in place. Thereafter the county plans will have to reflect that and will have to be varied, which will take into 2020. Realistically those plans will last for six years, as they do, up to 2026.

The first stage is the first ten years which will coincide with the national development plan and will be measurable in 2026 with the outcome from the census at that stage. We are talking about the first ten years in terms of implementation. We need to issue guidance now. We have met the planning teams from all 30 local authorities at this stage. We prioritised that because we wanted to engage at the local government level. They are key stakeholders for us. We have listened to what people have had to say, their concerns, their questions and what they need to know more about. We have committed to issuing a roadmap with further guidance on the RSES procedure in particular by late April or early May. Some questions arose. How will population be addressed? What should the MAPs, metropolitan area plans, cover? They form a new element of planning. We see them as a co-ordination piece where there are a number of local authorities, particularly in the cities.

In addition there is the question about bringing plans into synch. The legislation before the Seanad at the moment, if enacted, will ensure that no development plans will commence for a period until such time as the regional plans are in place next year. That will enable a better synchronisation of the county plans with the regional ones and everybody to be working off broadly the same set of objectives, which is what we have started to put in place at a national level. This is a kind of work in progress as members will know.

The current regional and county plans are based on figures derived from the 2006 census. There are an additional 300,000 people in the country now. We are out of synch in numbers as it stands. We have started to update and rectify that situation. We have to work through that. It cannot change overnight. It will take ten years to roll through. As I said, this is long-term planning. We are not seeking to restrict numbers. We are reluctant to issue what we see as an updated set of figures that risk becoming out of date very quickly. We need to look at it more creatively in terms of a range, a relationship to the national average or something like that. We are giving detailed consideration to that at the moment. This issue has been raised by many local authorities in our meetings in recent days.

There obviously has to be some balance as well. I will shortly come to the targets we have set for urban growth and why they are important. As well as the cities, there is also huge concern over how large towns, smaller towns and villages across the country are developing, particularly further west. Of course rural housing continues to form an element of Irish housing provision. All that needs to be balanced up. One of the problems we have had throughout the process is that people perceive there to be unlimited demand for everything and that somehow we can address every issue, city growth, strong towns, strong villages and unlimited one-off housing.

We do not have the levels of growth, however, to sustain the aspirations across the board for city growth, strong towns, strong rural towns and unlimited one-off housing. Balance and prioritisation are required. We are trying to enable decisions to be made for the bigger places at national and regional levels and to enable a sufficient degree of choice for local elected members at county level. We do not want to restrict things or to give a set of numbers that cannot be changed as we are all too aware of the possible intended consequences of doing so. In Wicklow in 2016, there were 22,000 fewer people than planned for, because the figures in the 2006 census had become so outdated. It is a consequence of the downturn and we need to update it. We accept that there was a need to bring rural housing policy in line with what currently exists and we have done that. The distinction between rural and urban reflects the current guidance, which was put in place in 2006 or 2007. The closer one gets to larger urban centres the more limited the demand if one qualifies, and qualification thresholds are difficult to police on the fringes of an urban area.

In transport infrastructure implementation, we are working to buy into, embed and mainstream the strategy across Departments and agencies. We started with the local authority sector and we will continue to do that with agencies such as TII, the NTA, the IDA and Irish Water, all of which are critical stakeholders and are very keen that we have a strategy to which everyone can sign up and work towards. There is good rail infrastructure in Wicklow and good potential on foot of that.

There was a question on the town plan for Drogheda. Many of the same principles of our co-ordination plans will apply to towns as well as cities, particularly the five towns mentioned, as they are equally applicable to large towns throughout the country. There is a whole-town plan, as opposed to a local area plan, to address land and development and while there are in a couple of cases, particularly Athlone and Drogheda, issues relating to governance of the planned process, this is simply because they straddle more than one jurisdiction. We are working closely with our local government colleagues on those issues but we have enshrined the principle of a whole-town plan in our framework. The decision on how it is governed is a matter that can be dealt with separately.

Deputy Ó Broin asked how we would achieve the targets, which is a key question and one with which we have grappled throughout the process. As Mr. Cussen said, we do not have a warehouse full of people whom we can send to different parts of the country. People are attracted primarily to where there are jobs and where there is good infrastructure and a good quality of life. We are trying to encourage employment growth through foreign direct investment, local enterprise and focusing on places that have scale and have good third level institutions. They need to be networked, by which I mean have a relationship to adjoining places, such as Athlone working with surrounding towns in the midlands of Tullamore, Mullingar, Longford, Ballinasloe, etc. Athlone is the centre of a transport network, has a third level institution and is well positioned in relation to the other towns. There is potential for all the towns to work together in a collaborative way. Collaboration is a really important criterion when making bids for regeneration funded by the urban and rural generation fund. It is about scale and agglomeration and it is about third level institutions ensuring their graduates stay in the region. The research paper which supports the document confirms all of this and it is why there is a focus on the cities and on a relatively small number of regional centres.

I was asked about Clonburris and the question of infrastructure following development. This is an age-old question in planning and we are moving towards it slowly, getting it right in some instances. I wrote the plan for Adamstown 16 years ago and we introduced the concept of phasing infrastructure with development. It was hugely controversial at the time and there was a fear that we would encourage 20,000 people to come over ten or 15 years, with up to 10,000 houses needing to be built. It has not worked out like that and has been much slower but all the infrastructure is in place. The same railway line runs through Clonburris, and there are railway stations that are disused at the moment. The plan indicates everything that will happen over a long period of time but the roll-out of development is invariably much slower, which enables the infrastructure to follow with good policies. We are doing everything to make sure that alignment happens.

The spatial dimension of social disadvantage has been raised by Deputy Ó Broin on previous occasions and we have looked at it in detail. It is a very interesting analysis and the Pobal document is published every year. At national level, the difficulty is that a small number of counties, namely, Dublin, Cork, Galway, Meath, Kildare and Wicklow, are marginally above average and the rest of the country is marginally below average. It is only when one drills down to a local level that the pattern emerges but we are not operating at that level of detail. Approximately 70% of the country is marginally above or marginally below the average so there is no particular pattern of disadvantage or advantage. Another 15% is advantaged to some extent - the word used for this is "affluent" - and a further 15% is disadvantaged to varying extents, though this is improving. This 15% is geographically scattered and is best dealt with at local level, at county level or the level of a local area or town plan. We would be willing to indicate that this be taken into account in town plans and housing assessments but it is not appropriate to the level at which we operate. We have addressed the issue on a broader front, such as education, access to employment, to services and to transport.

I have covered the main points. As we are developing the implementation strategy, we will be open to suggestions and input on how we can further advise agencies, Departments and the local government sector.

Along with other members, I welcome the assistance officials have given to this committee and the Houses in the course of this process.

The national spatial strategy was scrapped in 2012 by the previous Government and not replaced. It is high time for such a strategy or framework and I welcome that its replacement has eventually arrived. I am disappointed that it took six years for the plan to come to fruition. That is a matter for Deputy O'Dowd.

I have an answer for Deputy Cowen.

Of course he has.

He may not like it.

I never have too much time for much of what Deputy O'Dowd says.

The Government chose to disregard the Planning and Development (Amendment) Bill that is currently going through the Houses as a means of facilitating a more inclusive role for Members of the Houses in agreeing a spatial strategy. That is the prerogative and the right of the Government and we respect and acknowledge that. It chose to refer to previous legislation which gives it the right to place the framework on a statutory basis. If it practised as it preached, it would have honoured the initial commitment it gave but it is obvious that, by virtue of the numbers within the Houses, it thought it might not receive the support to progress the Bill with the inclusive potential it had.

As regards county development plans, I seek clarification as to whether the previous legislation that governs the publication and statutory basis that this framework now has gives and guarantees the hierarchy as running from the national planning framework plan to regional plans, county development plans and area plans. If that is so, must any future plans merely have regard to that or must they strictly abide by that hierarchy? Local councillors must have some autonomy in terms of their efforts to devise, prepare and agree county development plans. I wish to put on the record of the committee and make the point to the Department and the Minister who has or will have responsibility in this area that the help and assistance afforded to members of local authorities in preparing a development plan leaves much to be desired. I say that having had 19 years' experience as local authority member. Many other committee members have similar experience. There must be provision for local authorities to have relevant professional expertise at their disposal and to act on their behalf rather than being led and directed by the executive. Local authority members come from a certain viewpoint and should have the relevant professional expertise available to them in providing a draft plan which is then the subject of discussion and amendment by local authority members and the public thereafter. Local authority members do not have the time or expertise they desire to adequately deal with development plans. That will have been copper-fastened if greater pressure is now placed on them by virtue of this hierarchy.

As regards the issues raised by Deputy Casey regarding rural housing, the initial draft only provided for an economic need criterion to be considered in the event of a person wishing to provide a rural house. I am glad to see that there is now also consideration of social need. How that is interpreted may vary depending on the local authority area. In my county, our main water source is underground and one must be conscious of the proliferation of septic tanks, which is not the case in other counties. Aside from that, our interpretation and best practice, of which Ms Walsh will be well aware as she has been there, is that one must cater for local need. One must cater for landowners and their families and for people who have an attachment to an area and wish to ensure they have a prospect of living there. If we are serious about rural communities thriving or surviving into the future, people must be allowed to live in them.

There is a definite focus in the strategy on moving people towards urban areas. I recognise and acknowledge that and appreciate that cities must grow but, in terms of the regions, I fear that the statistics, information and data collated in regard to the midlands region have been considered alongside those for the east of the country. The midlands is an identifiable region in its own right, comprising counties Laois, Offaly, Longford and Westmeath. The statistics published by the ESRI earlier this year are vastly different from those published that fed into this plan.

I am thankful the Government chose the path it did in regard to the legislation it chose to put this on a statutory basis because Governments and government policy can change. If I had my way, I would seek electoral approval to amend elements of the plan, as is my right, and would thereafter accept the will of the people, whether that indicates support for me or others who campaign on those issues.

The Government must acknowledge that local authority members should have independent relevant professional expertise available to them in playing their part in seeking to provide for future county development plans. That has not previously been the case and there is a huge weight of expectation which councillors are not able to live up to, based on what they are paid and the time available to them to do it. Only when the Government recognises and acknowledges that will local and county development plans be representative and what they should be. It is the councillors who are accountable. With all due respect, the witnesses have been in their jobs for far longer than most local authority members but the councillors put themselves forward, are accountable to the people and seek to devise and prepare a plan that meets the expectations of those who give them the privilege of being public representatives. A process in terms of regional plans has now begun, a planning framework having been put in place that was missing for the past six years. I was surprised that that process commenced before the planning framework was agreed and that gave me the impression that the Government had the planning framework in its back pocket anyway. County development plans and area plans will follow but they will not be what they ought to be if the relevant expertise is not available to local authority members.

I echo and support Deputy Cowen, who makes a very valid point on training and ongoing professional support, as earlier discussed. I come from and was a member of Dún Laoghaire local authority. Judicial reviews have been carried out in respect of planning issues and county development plans in that area. The issue in terms of councillors is ongoing and we must empower them, which will give them skills, knowledge and responsibilities. There must be independent support. I know of councillors who themselves sought and paid for legal advice as citizens of communities that feel so vexed by some things planning authorities try to do. That is the reality of it. Although it is not a matter for today's meeting, I know many councillors who put their hands in their pockets to write submissions in regard to planning for the communities they represent. All present know of such councillors. I have had to spend my own money to appeal decisions by a local authority in which I lived and for which I was an elected member. I had to pay the local authority to which I had been elected to exercise my functions in respect of planning.

I was unhappy with some of the decisions, appealed and was successful, but nobody validated them and came back and gave me my money. That is replicated all over the country.

My final question concerns State agencies and assets, with which the document is peppered. We have very valuable real estate assets. I am thinking, in particular, of the port and dockland areas in Drogheda, Dublin, Dún Laoghaire, Wicklow, Waterford and Cork. We can see that a lot is happening in Waterford. Deputies from there have been upfront in announcing their input into the plan and how they shaped it. There are ports all the way around to Galway. It is a vast amount of real estate with really good zoning, at which we need to look. I am not being critical; I am just saying it is really important that we look at its value, assessment, zoning and potential. We have regional assemblies, local authorities and State agencies. When and where can we get an inventory of the State's assets which are public lands? I understand the Department deals with all of the local authorities. I brought to its attention where there were deficiencies and returns were not fully accurate. We have a problem in that regard. The State has vast tracts of land which are very much part of what the Department is planning. In fairness, it was referenced in the presentation. Will the delegates tell us how it is going to happen, who is going to do it and what the lead agency is? I know that marine and coastal planning is a separate strand, but will the delgates tell us how it is progressing?

In reply to my good friend and colleague, Deputy Barry Cowen, the national spatial strategy should have been revised once its cycle came to an end, as he rightly noted. It was a disastrous strategy because very few of the designated areas actually became growth areas. Drogheda, which had been omitted from it heretofore, actually grew to become the biggest town in Ireland. That is how wrong the strategy was and I was concerned when Drogheda was excluded initially. Under the Freedom of Information Act, I discovered that a note on the national planning framework had gone to the Cabinet. Therefore, the Government of the day, which happened to be led by Fianna Fáil, decided at the time that Drogheda would be excluded and that Dundalk would be designated as the growth centre. The Government has done the opposite. It has included both towns because they are the biggest in Ireland and we need to recognise growth where it happens. That is why this plan is so important.

The plan is also important in the control of development. I agree that it should go to the regional bodies for their consideration and approval, but it is the plan and they must have due regard to it. That is a key point because in the past whole areas were rezoned by councillors who then had to de-zone them because developments never took place. One needs a structure and the freedom to make decisions within it, but one needs the proper structure. One thing I recollect from my 29 years in local government is a development plan for a village in County Louth. The council advised us that if we were producing a development plan for the village, sewerage capacity had been reached such that the village could not accommodate any more housing. A private function was held to which people were invited. It was run by the developer. Needless to say, I was not invited because I would not have been in favour of what ultimately happened. A huge area of land was rezoned which was unable to take the housing planned to be built on it. That was what was wrong with local government planning.

Another example involved something that is in the records of the Department of Housing, Planning and the Environment. The county development plan for Louth was being drawn up, but as an elected member of the council, I had not seen it. One day I received a telephone call in which I was asked to visit a certain businessman in the town. I asked him what he wanted to see me about. He took a copy of the draft development plan for County Louth out of his briefcase that included the areas to be designated and zoned for housing. I was disgusted and asked the then Minister to investigate how this had happened. I was told that because it was a draft development plan, it did not have any legal status, but that if I wished, I could go to An Garda Síochána and report the matter. There has been a lot of hookery and crookery in planning in Ireland which is appalling and disgraceful. The shame falls on politicians and those who made the decisions. We must make sure planning is transparent and above board. There has been tribunal after tribunal, but I hope and believe we now have a proper structure in place, notwithstanding the fact that there is freedom within it for local government to have plans.

Another thing that disgusted me was the fact that during the so-called boom which was a big disaster builders were writing development plans for councils which did not have the money to fund them. The comments made about councils not being funded to produce their own development plans are right. Development plans for places in County Louth were written by the developers who built the damn houses. This has to stop. We must ensure there is proper and adequate funding to obtain independent professional advice for councillors to make plans. One of the things that disgusted me the most was the fact that we had a development plan for Drogheda that designated an historic building, Drogheda grammar school, for conservation and preservation, but the building was very kindly demolished by a builder in the middle of the night over a holiday weekend. When the council would not act, I did, with another person. We went to the High Court and, through the planning process, had the building reconstructed with the same type of handmade brick with which it had originally been constructed. What really sickened me was the effort of politicians - I obtained this information from the Department on foot of a request I had made - who requested that favoured designation be granted to the owners of the site who had illegally demolished an historic building to proceed with the development of the site. All this must end, which is why I welcome the constructive engagement, not control, by the Department such that it is laid out what someone can and cannot do.

I welcome what Mr. Hogan said about looking at towns such as Drogheda - he also mentioned Athlone - which are growing outside the traditional physical boundaries of counties. If I heard him correctly, he said the adjoining local authorities would talk about what might happen. I would have concerns about this. I am talking about Drogheda, which is why I mentioned the point about local government reform. If two county councils are to decide what the largest town in Ireland will look like in the future, they have a vested interest in terms of the income they will receive in rates on properties on the periphery of the town. I see the Vice Chairman is smiling. Perhaps he knows what I am talking about. It is hugely important where two towns are identified such as Drogheda and Athlone - there are other places also - that if changes are to be made, they be made independently of the councils which have a vested interest. Commercial development on the outskirts of Drogheda in the area of County Meath has occurred in the face of opposition from the planners in County Meath. It was forced on communities by councillors who had decided in the local development plan to designate areas which they had been advised should not be designated. Therefore, there is a range of issues to be considered. The Minister should set up a new council for the town of Drogheda to decide on what should happen.

He should not give control to decide the future of the area to two adjoining county councils for the reasons I have set out. There is a campaign in Drogheda to secure city status, which is well known and has been publicised nationally. I asked the Central Statistics Office when Drogheda, which has a population of 40,000, was projected to achieve a population of 50,000 and it stated that by 2030 approximately the population would be 52,000. It is important to plan now for the city Drogheda will become. I accept that it is not a city now, although the population surrounding the town exceeds that level. However, it is not in one county, which is the issue. There are extant planning permissions for the construction of approximately 7,500 homes in the area north of Drogheda. Speaking to the Minister through the officials who are present, I note that for the Department's plan to work, it must plan now for Drogheda to become a city by putting in place immediately a local government structure with the equivalent of a city manager to take charge and control of these developments.

I thank the Chairman for his indulgence.

Ms Alma Walsh

I will pick up on the previous round of questions also and refocus on the alignment and sequencing we have been discussing in the past month through our engagement with local authorities and regional assemblies.

Mr. Cussen and Mr. Hogan have alluded to the fact that we are in a transition phase. We have been communicating what we see as the next steps and the road map for implementation in working with the regional assemblies and local authorities. Related to that and a matter which has been the focus of some comments today is the county development plan and its role. What is to happen to it? How is it to be aligned and what is the timeframe for it? The Bill before the Seanad includes amendments to prepare and allow for a deferral of all development plans nationally. The rationale for this is twofold. It will allow for national policy to be decided, followed by regional policy and then local policy which can be worked through the county and city development plan approach and, equally, the local area plan approach. This is a landscape on which the RSES has not yet been decided by each of the three regional assemblies. They are involved in that process and that is the policy priority for the remainder of the year and into early 2019. It would be inappropriate for local authorities to attempt to start to write or review a development plan without the regional signposting or policy being decided.

In terms of the hierarchy, what is being reinforced through the amendment of the Bill is that national policy will be decided ahead of regional and then county development plans. There are timelines that allow for a concertina effect. There will be a number of development plans which will have to initiate a plan review or pick it up after a pause and within a short timeframe after the RSES has been adopted. That allows for a kick-start of the development plan system once regional policy has been decided. Local authorities have been briefed on this issue, but the Bill has not yet been enacted and commenced. Until it is, the current status of plans remains in force. It is disruptive to the system in one sense, but the wider benefit in the longer term will ensure local authorities will not be without the guidance of national and regional policy in preparing their own plans. The focus for the remainder of the year is on regional assemblies preparing the three RSES plans. Local authorities are already involved in that process through the SPAs and technical working groups. We are encouraging that process to continue.

Another large theme which has emerged through submissions and our engagement is single housing in the countryside. It is important to speak about rural housing in a wider housing context. The NPF has suggested to local authorities the preparation of a housing need demand assessment. It is not designed to replace current housing strategies, but it is a composite methodology to allow a local authority as both the planning and housing authority to understand housing needs over the plan period and estimate and project what the tenure will be and for whom it will cater. It could be for people over 65 years of age or an assessment of how much student accommodation is required. It will be about how much affordable housing is required and what the private market has the potential to deliver. Part of it will be about how rural housing fits into the overall picture and it will differ for every local authority. To supplement it, the national planning framework does not amend rural housing policy, as it stands. It acknowledges the different local authority policies in place, of which there are 29 to 30. While all of them are based on the sustainable rural housing guidelines, their application has caused difficulties in some cases. What we are saying is we need a composite picture of what is required and what the baseline is. That goes back to what Mr. Hogan said about development plans working from out-of-date population projections. We are trying to realign and re-establish the system in order that we will support both executives and elected members in decision-making based on up-to-date evidence - everything from census results to HNDA, allowing a more effective core strategy to come into force.

Deputy Barry Cowen referred to the onerous nature of a development plan. It is a two-year review process and there are allocated times for the public, the executive and members to deal with it. It is certainly onerous. While the professional expertise of a council is available to members and the executive is in place to advise, there are plenty of examples of where the executive has also needed professional assistance. For example, there is the matter of a strategic environmental assessment where ecological expertise is required to enable an appropriate assessment to be made or where a strategic flood risk assessment is required. That is all to the benefit of the wider plan and the members where the expertise is taken on board. The advice is designed to be presented to the members. It is absolutely acknowledged that the process is onerous and time consuming, in particular given the volume of documentation involved.

There are a couple of other points on which to pick up. On the all-island dimension and the engagement at the later stages of finalisation of the NPF, it was slightly more difficult when the political establishment was not in force to allow political engagement to happen. However, we have involved our colleagues in the North of Ireland and engaged with them. The chief planner in the North was invited and sat on the advisory group for the national planning framework. There very much was a presence and engagement which we were conscious of securing.

In the case of Drogheda, there was a significant number of submissions received, although I do not have the figure.

The Department could send it on.

Ms Alma Walsh

I can certainly furnish it to the committee. All of the submissions have been uploaded to the NPF website.

They were not all made available. My one was not included initially. I am only joking when I point that out, but I had to chase it up.

There was no conspiracy.

That would be too strong. There was an error by the consultant who did not include it.

Mr. Niall Cussen

I thank Ms Walsh and Mr. Hogan for their contributions, as well as committee members. Deputy Barry Cowen raised some very specific matters. I note that the legislation refers to a broad level of consistency between the plans. That provides for autonomy and the outworking of issues locally to be reconciled and worked with at regional and national level. We are certainly not enthusiasts for a tablet of stone approach, nor does the legislation support such slavish adherence. As Deputy Cowen knows from his area, issues need to be worked out at local level. He raised some issues, of which we were very well aware, involving aquifers and groundwater sensitivity in County Offaly.

The legislation envisages that a broad level of strategic detail will be pinned down at national and regional levels but, necessarily, there will be a more detailed outworking of that at local level. The legislation mentions the word consistency and not adherence or compliance. Obviously the former is a lot stronger than the term "have regard to", which was the subject of previous criticism. A previous Government introduced the changes to the Planning and Development (Amendment) Act 2010 and the language was adjusted in light of court judgments from a previous time.

Ms Walsh has dealt very well with the point made about the rural aspect. We are not rewriting the rural housing policy in the context of a national planning framework. Please bear in mind that the local authorities that deal with rural areas encounter various geographical, socio-economic and all sorts of physical aspects, as alluded to earlier.

I assume that the Deputy will agree with me, in the context of promoting a good degree of choice in rural areas, that Ireland has an immensely strong rural identity which is part and parcel of our culture and way of life. It is important that we give rural towns and villages a fighting chance and provide a choice to people in terms of where they live, particularly when dealing with remote rural communities such as the villages located near the Slieve Bloom mountains in Offaly. Also, some of the small villages located in the western part of the county have suffered for many years due to economic decline, etc. The message put forward by the national planning framework and capital planning, as shown by our efforts to support local authorities in implementing same at a local level, is very much that those towns need a greater fighting chance when it comes to competing for the available level of interest from people who want to put down roots or set up businesses or whatever in those areas. As the Deputy will be well aware, there are not enough sites available in some of those towns and there is a lack of water services and also derelict buildings. The town of Banagher springs to mind. The purpose of the rural regeneration and development fund is to tackle these issues. It does not put towns and villages ahead of rural areas in terms of housing choice. We want to provide a range of accommodation choices so that people can put a roof over their heads. Too often, either because the site has been made freely available by a family member, which is much better than buying expensive zoned land in a small town or village, or the local authority cannot provide enough serviced sites, smaller towns and villages never get a look in and they often become the locations where social housing is provided but not private housing. People make an economic decision based on a sensible decision-making approach.

In terms of the national planning framework and regeneration funds, we work with local authorities to bring forward their ideas and create synergies with the broader housing funding. We want to create opportunities for smaller towns and villages, in a rural development context, to become the focus for a series of things to happen. We want people to choose to live in such places and set up businesses and, therefore, we must support their broader social and economic life. One rarely achieves planning objectives through restrictions. One creates planning objectives by creating opportunities, which is what this document seeks to do.

Deputy Cowen and Senator Boyhan have raised many issues about advice and training. We acknowledge that decision-making for planning has become more complex. Local authority members have more issues to deal with and, in some cases, larger geographical areas. It is very important, in the context of good decision-making, that we support elected members at local level through effective training, advice and so on. My colleague, Mr. Hogan, has reminded me that an office for planning regulation will be established when the Planning and Development (Amendment) Bill is enacted. One of the three pillars for establishing such an office is to ensure that there is effective training, education, technical support, etc. for members. We have not spent enough time and effort on increasing awareness and improving the technical understanding of the various legislative requirements. It is very important that we do so because one of the areas that may become more litigious in the future, which has happened in the environment impact assessment, EIA, process, is how environmental assessments and all of the legal requirements are reflected in the development plan process.

Like all of my colleagues, I worked in local authorities for many years before joining the Department. The Department is lucky to have staff who understand how the system works at a grassroot level and central level. I understand, having worked as part of the executive for local authorities, that we very much worked for the executive and on behalf of the members of local authorities. I understood that our role was to give that advice, engage, listen, check and double check the situation. I shall leave that question there as to the appropriateness or otherwise of adding a third party to the advice-giving role for members as part of the deliberative and policy processes in terms of planning matters, etc. The role of the office for planning regulation will put in place a rigorous and regular process of training, support and advice giving on a regional basis, quarterly basis, etc. That is something we need to progress, as a matter of urgency and I hope that will happen when the legislation is enacted.

The Department has always supported the work of the Association of Irish Local Government, AILG, the Local Authority Members Association, LAMA, etc. We are always available, and very anxious to make ourselves available, to those representative organisations for local authority members. We are always happy to answer all of their questions.

My broader team of colleagues and I are always happy to engage with local authority members but obviously not in the context of council meetings. In a previous life I recall that a number of workshops were provided to elected members in the midland counties. The Department could arrange similar workshops now. It would allow the Department to answer questions from the elected members. It would afford the Department an opportunity to explain the rationale behind its policy and how that works at local level, etc. It is difficult for us to constantly work with 31 local authorities. We are more than willing to make ourselves available to facilitate workshops that provide technical training and advice giving exercises. We provide technical support to local authorities in terms of their planning functions. We have no difficulty with interacting with members whether it is through strategic policy committees, SPCs, or working groups, etc. I wish to stress that we are more than willing and able to do so.

Can the Department arrange workshops so that people can drop by to discuss issues?

Mr. Niall Cussen

My Department colleagues and I have manned a stand at the National Ploughing Championships for the past few years and we talked to hundreds of people on those occasions. There is nothing better than planning people like ourselves dealing with the issues that ordinary citizens present at a coalface level. In the past I have worked for a local authority in Meath and I recall, with great fondness, the monthly planning clinics that it hosted throughout the county. The more that people in the planning business get out from behind their desks and engage with people the better.

I take it that the Department will come to Drogheda.

Mr. Niall Cussen

Yes, such work is very important.

I must leave in a minute as I have to attend a debate in the Seanad.

I apologise to Senator Boyhan.

I ask the delegation to address the issue of the State land asset. Who will conduct the audit? What unit will commence the work? I would like that information put on the record.

Mr. Niall Cussen

I thank the Senator for reminding me about the matter and apologise to him for my omission. We have quite a good register of State lands on the Rebuilding Ireland website. I do not know if he is familiar with the website. We are not saying that the website contains the forensic totality of everything that is out there.

It should be remembered, of course, that a lot of land in this country is not registered. Bottoming that out can be challenging. However, we intend to focus on and progress that area, particularly with our colleagues in the Property Registration Authority, Tailte Éireann and the local authorities. We need sharper and sharper information on the State land asset, particularly in brownfield areas and so on. As we develop up and progress our ideas about the establishment of the national regeneration and development agency and the evidence base that it works off, that will be a major focus for us. If there is anything we have missed or key areas that the Senator thinks we should be aware of, etc., he is very welcome to share them with us.

Who will take that responsibility and lead that exercise?

Mr. Niall Cussen

This process is the subject of discussions at present between us and our colleagues in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. I think the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform has signalled in the recent past his intention to progress with our own Minister the proposals around that and the different options for-----

No decision has been made yet.

Mr. Niall Cussen

No decision has been made yet, and that creates the opportunity, indeed through interactions in a committee such as this or, for that matter, subsequent interactions, to highlight the key issues and so on. I wish to inform the Senator and members of the committee generally that the one thing we are very focused on is to get moving on this quickly, particularly regarding an approach that adds value. We have a good strategic overview of key State land assets, the big stuff that is in key areas that would be transformative in assisting the compact urban growth approach. We have the funds now, or at least the signalling around the funds, very helpfully provided by the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform. We must progress some of the more operational aspects and so on in the coming weeks and month or so. To reassure the Senator, we will interact with the local authorities on that. Again, we are not in the business of inscribing tablets of stone.

Yes, I appreciate that.

Mr. Niall Cussen

We are in the business of listening and taking on board the advice and expertise of local authorities as we refine our approach nationally. As I said, we would be very happy to come back to the committee and discuss with it these issues in more detail in due course.

I thank Mr. Cussen.

I wish to make a few comments. I refer to Deputy O'Dowd's comments about transparency. Having been involved in a local authority for 12 years, I have gone through three county development plans. I think we have moved on as a country, the planning process has moved on and there is transparency through all stages of the county development plan process. That is a positive step from where we were a number of decades ago. Having gone through three county development plans, I must put that on record.

Mr. Cussen talks about the importance of place-making, and we argue about population and its importance. Rightly or wrongly, everything in the county development plan relates to population, population targets and everything from the zoning of lands, education needs and community needs down even to the sustainability of that county through the local property tax. All this has a huge role in the county development plan. Regrettably, population, rightly or wrongly, is the key component of each county development plan. I know why there is a hands-off approach, and that will be decided at a regional level. I am slightly concerned about Wicklow because we did comply with national spatial strategy and we did not break the guidelines. We adhered to them, unlike other counties. We suffer the consequences of that today because we will not have the same proportion of population growth out of what has been allocated to the regional authorities simply because others went ahead and blew it. Both Kildare and Meath got critical rail infrastructure out of the national development plan process; Wicklow got nothing. That is just a practical example of population having a hugely significant role to play from the start right down to community infrastructure.

I will go back to rural planning because I am a little obsessed with it, coming as I do from a one-off rural house myself. I understand the pressure that is on one-off rural housing. Coming from Wicklow, I think we have a good record in how we manage one-off rural houses. This is why it goes back to the criteria of qualification as opposed to being under an urban shadow or a rural shadow in that one either qualifies or does not qualify. What I am slightly concerned about is this housing demand assessment. If I am reading Ms Walsh right, when we are deciding county plans we are deciding core strategies. We are saying, for example, 50% of our houses will be one-off rural houses. In the next six years Wicklow can have 350 one-off rural houses, but God love me if I am applicant No. 356 and I do not qualify. Regarding rural housing, one either has a need to live in the rural area or one does not, and allocating a proportion of percentage growth to that will be hard to work out. It is just a complicated process.

Furthermore, we are entering into a new era with the office of the planning regulator being brought in, something that we have not seen before. Our national planning framework, or the regional local plans, will all have to adhere to that, and it is probably not moving in the right direction. Equally, I acknowledge that the Government has accepted Fianna Fáil's amendment to bring transport under that oversight. I felt it was critical we do that. I spoke to the witnesses earlier about TII and I will speak to them after the meeting about it. It is critical TII does not become the deciding factor of what happens at national, regional and local level. It must adhere to national, regional and local policy. This is clearly still not happening at present. It thinks it is driving the bus. I will show the witnesses that correspondence later.

Mr. Niall Cussen

I thank the Vice Chairman. I meant to come back to Deputy O'Dowd. Planning has been in a constantly evolving process and, due to the wisdom and foresight of previous Governments, changes were brought in in the Planning and Development (Amendment) Act 2010. Everything we do in the present builds on the past and learns from and improves it. I thank the Deputy for making that clarification.

I thank Ms Walsh, Mr. Cussen and Mr. Hogan for attending and engaging with the committee. The meeting is now adjourned. The next meeting of the joint committee will be held on 27 March at 12 noon, when we will undertake consideration of a motion regarding An Bord Pleanála.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.38 a.m. until 12 noon on Tuesday, 27 March 2018.
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