Skip to main content
Normal View

Joint Committee on Housing, Planning and Local Government debate -
Tuesday, 1 May 2018

Hinkley Point C Nuclear Power Plant: Discussion

Apologies have been received from Deputies Maria Bailey and Ruth Coppinger.

At the request of the broadcasting and recording services, members and visitors in the Gallery are requested to ensure that for the duration of the meeting their mobile phones are turned off completely or switched to airplane, safe or flight mode, depending on their devices. It is not sufficient to put phones on silent mode as this will maintain the level of interference with the broadcasting system.

We are discussing Hinkley Point C nuclear power plant this morning and on behalf of the committee I welcome Professor John Sweeney; Professor Stephen Thomas; Ms Attracta Ní Bhroin and Mr. Justin Byrne from the Irish Environmental Network; and Mr. Charles Stanley Smith from the Environmental Pillar.

Before we begin I wish to draw to the attention of the witnesses the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to that effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons, or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses, or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I ask Ms Uí Bhroin to make her opening statement.

Ms Attracta Uí Bhroin

I thank the members for this opportunity to address the committee on this most important of matters. I extend our appreciation for the staff of the committee for their assistance and for the expeditious arrangement of this hearing.

I will not read my opening statement verbatim because members have an additional presentation document to which I will refer. I am hoping to give some context for what we are here to talk about today, that is, the UK's expansion of its nuclear programme, and to explain why this is coming before the committee. The committee has critical responsibility for local government matters and the consultation recently conducted on Hinkley Point was held through local government structures, that is, the county councils of Ireland. The Minister has specific responsibilities relating to consultations on transboundary matters under a convention to which I will refer later and there are specific functions within his Department relating to notifications, execution and the circulation of information. The manner in which this is being conducted is important for the committee's consideration as well as for Ireland's preparedness to deal with the matters we are going to be talking about this morning.

Hinkley Point C is a new nuclear power plant in the UK and one of eight plants planned as part of a proposed expansion of the UK's nuclear programme. On the slides, members will see a map highlighting the fact that, of the eight plants, five of them are on the west coast of the UK, facing Ireland's most densely populated east coast. Some are even nearer to Ireland than Hinkley Point C. Ireland has legislative bans on the production of nuclear energy, reflecting our concerns as a nation on the risks and impacts of such a technology, but we absolutely acknowledge the sovereign right of the UK to pursue its own energy mix. Equally, however, we acknowledge that the UK and Ireland have obligations on such matters and the public have certain rights under EU and international law in respect of projects, particularly of this nature which have the potential for significant transboundary and transnational impacts.

Our concerns over Hinkley Point C are not about panicking people or causing unnecessary issues. They are about ensuring that the legal rights of the Irish public are upheld and that we engage proactively and collectively to do everything necessary to ensure the health of our citizens and our environment and that our economic interests are best protected. That is in the context of our vigilance in respect of the normal operations of the UK's plants and plants elsewhere, the need for avoidance and mitigation in relation to an accident or a terrorist attack, be it minor or catastrophic in its proportions, and our appropriate preparedness for such events.

I will give some context in respect of concerns that could arise and have arisen. A 2016 ESRI report considered a scenario where there is a nuclear incident but no radioactive contamination reaches Ireland. Even in that case, it is estimated that the economic impact on Ireland could be in the order of €4 billion, because of the implications for the reputation of our agrifood industry, tourism, etc. It states that it "conservatively" estimated the discounted economic loss to Ireland from a serious nuclear event anywhere in north west Europe, but close to Ireland, at €161 billion. This is important because while this committee is immediately concerned with Hinkley Point, there are other plans and programmes in other countries close to Ireland about which we need to be equally vigilant. Some of the concerns the committee may wish to consider in this regard will be addressed by Professor Steve Thomas, especially in the context of French nuclear power plants.

The ESRI refers to agriculture being "lost".

This is, of course, not just a major consideration economically, it is also one which would impact on the very fabric of rural society in Ireland, even if the worst effects on the human population can somehow by avoided. In considering the impacts on the population, the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland produced a report in 2015, which refers to mitigating the impacts of radioactive fallout in the country by sheltering indoors. However, it fails entirely to address the feasibility of taking that option in the context of our having no covered water supply and the overall state of readiness of our population and our services for such an event. One only need consider the recent disruption and hardship caused by Storm Emma and the Beast from the East to envisage the implications on people and livestock, even in a period of 24 hours. Radioactive contamination does not melt away like snow. A further consideration is the extent of readiness of our services, particularly as Ireland does not have a nuclear industry. The HSE, for example, has indicated to Government in a report, which was the subject of an article in The Irish Times in January 2018, that it has virtually no capacity to deal with any nuclear incident.

While recognising that the UK has these sovereign rights, what rights and obligations are applicable to us in such matters? They flow from two international conventions, namely, the Espoo Convention and the Aarhus Convention and their associated protocols. The full names of those conventions are given in the handouts provided. Ireland, the UK and the EU are all parties to those conventions. The EU has addressed these obligations in key directives, which have, in turn, been transposed into Irish and UK law. I will touch on two directives briefly, one of which is typically referred to as the strategic environmental assessment, SEA, directive. This directive is concerned with assessing high-level plans and macro-level programmes, such as an overall energy programme. It recognises how important these are for framing significant decisions that will impact on further choices and projects down the road. It also highlights the importance of public participation and consultation in the context of the processes specified and the decision-making under that directive. The environmental impact assessment, EIA, directive is concerned with assessing the impact of individual projects, such as that at Hinkley Point. Overall, there is an energy SEA and an EIA associated with a particular project, such as that at Hinkley Point.

In the context of simplifying the transboundary obligations that are set out in the conventions and directives to which I refer, fundamentally the state where the project is initiated must determine if there are likely significant environmental effects on other countries. It does so by virtue of what is known as a screening determination. If it determines that there are such effects, it must consult accordingly. The consultations have to be taken into account and considered as part of the decision-making process. Alternatively, even if, for example, the state of origin, in this case the UK, determines that there are no transnational or transboundary impacts, another state can assert its right to be consulted regardless. This is what Austria did in respect of Hinkley Point C. The UK determined that there were no transboundary impacts associated with the latter but Austria was not satisfied with that response and insisted on being consulted. The UK made two screening determinations on Hinkley Point. The second screening determination it made on the transboundary impacts of the projects relied, in particular, on the UK’s submission for Article 37 of the EURATOM Treaty, which was concerned with radioactive emissions and waste. Professor Sweeney will set out serious issues in respect of the analysis in that report on which the UK relied in making the screening determination that there were no transboundary impacts. In our view, this raises serious questions about the adequacy of the UK’s assessment of impacts on Ireland in particular and the complacency of Ireland in respect of that assessment.

Ultimately, we are indebted to the current and to previous Espoo implementation committees for their vigilance and diligence in ensuring that we have this consultation opportunity which I urge the committee to seize in the best interests of the Irish public.

I wish to add to his analysis by highlighting that despite the screening statement acknowledging that Ireland was the nearest state to the plant, Ireland was entirely omitted from the consideration of the severe accident scenario examined in the Article 37 submission. The additional risks associated with further fracking licences which have issued from 2015 onwards in the UK in areas surrounding Hinkley been not been considered in the context of earthquake and tsunami risks, to which Professor Sweeney will refer in more detail.
The UK’s transboundary screening decision determined ultimately that on the basis that licensing and monitoring conditions are effective, impacts will not be significant. The UK authorities' reliance on the UK's own regulatory regime and bodies such as the Office of Nuclear Regulation, ONR, to avoid accidents is absolute. The Secretary of State in making his decision agreed with this view and in respect of concerns of the Austrian Government about the impacts on Austria in the event of an accident, he replied that such accidents were so unlikely to occur, it would not be reasonable to scope in such an issue for environmental impact assessment purposes. Therefore, he made it clear in that statement that the environmental impact of accidents was not assessed as part of the original decision as they were simply considered to be too unlikely.
Accidents, however, by their very nature are accidental. No one planned the events of Three Mile Island, Chernobyl or Fukushima Daiichi. The convergence of events resulting in the catastrophe of Fukushima and its relevance for further deficits in the UK’s approach are set out in an expert statement from Mr. John Large in annex III of our submission to the UK Government in the Hinkley consultation, and I invite the committee to consider that further.
Permission, however, was granted to the plant back in 2013. Following intense legal arguments in various fora, the Irish public was finally consulted this year, some five years late and after further escalation, given the failure of Ireland and the UK to ensure the Irish public was consulted alongside other nations last year in a remedial consultation exercise, such as occurred with the public in Netherlands, Denmark and Germany. The consultation is five years late, but it is not too late. Highlighting issues regarding the approach taken on Hinkley is essential not just for Hinkley, but for future projects that the UK may consider, both within and outside the nuclear context, and particularly in a post-Brexit context where we may no longer be able to rely on the EU environmental acquis.
As Ireland and the UK need to consider appropriate next steps given the deficits in the impact assessment undertaken to date on Hinkley Point C under both the Espoo Convention and the EU EIA directive, this is something that I would really urge the committee to consider. What level of further steps in relation to impact assessment should now be considered, particularly given that the Espoo Convention, which has very much facilitated this consultation, is inviting remarks from the countries which have participated in the consultation about what they consider are the appropriate next steps? Responses to that were actually requested by the committee yesterday, 30 April, and it would be interesting for this committee to examine what Ireland's response was to this, how adequate that response was, and what further comments might be made, as appropriate. There is also the matter of the EIA directive and its considerations.
Professor Thomas’s statement will highlight serious project issues including technical design and manufacturing issues, spiralling costs and delays, and concerns consequently regarding regulatory oversight. These are specific areas where we will now need to exercise particular vigilance in the future if the safeguards envisaged are not to be compromised, given other extraordinary pressures to advance Hinkley Point C.
Additional specific consideration is needed for new initiatives on the disposal of radioactive waste, which includes consideration of sites on the island of Ireland in Northern Ireland.
Key lessons have to be learned and applied to Hinkley Point C and other projects, particularly in the manner in which this consultation has arisen. I have some specific thoughts on that but I am conscious of time so I will move on, but the manner in which information flows to the Irish Government and within Departments and the accountabilities and responsibilities are areas where we have particular concerns. We look forward to considering these matters further with the committee in our further presentation and in the question and answer sessions.
It would be remiss of me, however, to conclude without acknowledging the support, in particular, of Irish environmental non-governmental organisations, ENGOs, like An Taisce and Friends of the Irish Environment and indeed colleagues in NGOs throughout Europe, citizens and Members of Parliament like Ms Sylvia Kotting-Uhl of the German Parliament, who have been to the fore in fighting for these consultations rights.

I now call on Professor Sweeney to make his opening statement.

Dr. John Sweeney

I thank the Vice Chairman. My submission centres on Article 37 which is part of the requirement that the UK Government had to achieve compliance with the EURATOM Treaty. My concerns centre on several aspects of that document where it attempts to provide an analysis of the surrounding climatology for Hinkley but also of the possible trajectories that might be followed by planned or unplanned releases of radioactivity from the station.

I want to focus on three aspects which give me some cause for concern regarding transboundary potential for this development. The first is the basis on which the characterisation of climatology is provided in the document. The committee has already received a presentation from me in which I have outlined some concerns about the way in which, for example, three years of wind data is allegedly used to provide the input for characterising the wind environment around the station. This is contrary to accepted climatological practice where normally 30 years of data are used as a fingerprint for climatic aspects in any location. It is rather dangerous to provide and draw conclusions based on a very short-term climatic record.

The second concern I have is in respect of how it has ignored the possibility of ongoing sea level rise in the vicinity of Hinkley. There are tables showing estimates of one in 10,000 year occurrences of high water and low water which, of course, is a concern for the cooling system. The statistical validity of extrapolating from a short-term record to calculate the once in a 10,000 year event is something which is not sound and we can be very critical of any conclusions based on that in terms of their robustness. In particular, it would appear that there is no consideration of the ongoing rise in sea level which is occurring and which is going to occur at this location over the next century. Radioactive waste is intended to be stored on-site for up to a century in this location. The propensity for sea level rise to cause an additional hazard, an additional problem, is vital to consider. In fact, the differences between the once in a year event and the once in allegedly 10,000 year event which is provided by Article 37 is only 1.3 m, and that is really something we cannot stand over in terms of a projected sea level rise alone of over 1 m by the end of this century. We know that sea level will continue to rise by up to 3 m over the next few centuries when there will still be, presumably, a radioactive risk at this location.

The third point is quite important because there is, therefore, a risk of flooding at this location. That risk was known to the UK Government when it produced Article 37 for the EURATOM submission. In fact, it was through a freedom of information request from a national newspaper that the flood risk was identified. The committee will note from the table I provided that Hinkley is designated as having a high flood risk by 2080 by the UK Government itself. That, therefore, can only be avoided by the construction of a floodwalls which would be the last line of defence in the event of flooding and a measure we would question as to whether it is something we should rely on for such a serious location as this.

The third aspect is the extent to which storm surges and possible tsunami events may occur at this location.

The committee may be aware that this is the Bristol Channel, which has a very macrotidal environment where the difference between high and low tide is very considerable - it is about 13 m. The highest astronomical tide is approximately 7 m above sea level as we stand. Add to that an additional risk from a storm surge, and from a possible tsunami, and one has the potential for increased flood hazard being experienced at this location.

There is, incidentally, some record of seismic activity in the Bristol Channel. The highest earthquake for the past ten years - a 4.4 magnitude - was observed as recently as February of this year in south Wales. We know there are historical records of a tsunami which is believed to have been induced by seismic activity in 1607, which was the worst flood event ever experienced in the UK, where 500 km of coast was inundated and 500 deaths occurred. These factors are not mentioned in the Article 37 submission.

My particular area of expertise lies in the atmospheric side of things and I looked quite closely at the atmospheric models that were used to simulate the ongoing dispersal of radioactivity and also in the event of an accident involving the catastrophic release of radioactivity. Here I found that the models being used are very suspect indeed. They are based on models that were developed in the late 1970s and the author of the model used raised a number of caveats about using his model which are highly relevant to this location. He questioned the validity of the model in a coastal location, the validity of the model whereby nearby buildings might impact on dispersion and the model being used in non-uniform terrain and where there might be upwind topography where the dispersion might be affected. In this case, the Mendip Hills are very close by.

My main issue is that the UK Met Office since that time, in fact even before the Article 37 submission was made, has developed its own dispersion model, a model called Nuclear Accident ModEl, NAME, specifically for the dispersion of nuclear hazardous material. This was operational from 1986 and yet the Article 37 simulations are all based on a model which is much older, and very simplistic in comparison to what is available today. There is no prescribed model for use in such circumstances in the European context, but there are recommended models, for example, in the United States Environmental Protection Agency, USEPA, which were available and which have not been mentioned in this proposal at all. One in particular, CALPUFF, is, by and large, the standard model used for such circumstances.

To put it in a nutshell, the criteria here are rather like forecasting the weather based on 1970s technology, which is essentially what is being done here. The more recent models, which make a much more sophisticated use of conditions along the trajectory, have simply been ignored. That is quite important because here we are looking at the possibility of effluent travelling across the St. George's Channel, over a cold sea in summer time, which stabilises emissions and which limits the dispersion of effluent quite successfully under certain stable easterly conditions. That would be the main concern I have.

To reiterate, the reason the model issue is so important is that in the aftermath of Chernobyl, many authorities discarded that traditional old approach to Gaussian or conical dispersion of effluent because it simply did not work. If one looks at the way Chernobyl radiation spread across Europe, such a simplistic model was completely useless in that situation. A much more sophisticated and modern approach needed to be taken and I really regret that that was not attempted in this particular instance.

I mention flooding because we now know that Fukishima has emitted about five to eight times as much radiation as Chernobyl, so it is a problem that was caused essentially by flooding in that vicinity.

In Ireland, we have only recently - in the past six years or so - been able to remove curbs on upland sheep farms in the North of Ireland, for example.

We are looking at long-term effects here, as Ms Uí Bhroin was saying. For that reason we really need a robust analysis and this Article 37 is a tokenistic effort which does not really provide the data. The Irish Government has been shortchanged by this essentially. I would certainly not like to risk accepting this as a robust simulation of what kind of things might happen in the event of an unforeseen accident occurring.

To reiterate what Ms Uí Bhroin said, the whole Article 37 did not consider Ireland. It considered the Channel Islands and France but it did not consider Ireland as a possible receptor for an accident of this nature, which is a serious omission and one which the committee should be concerned about.

I now call on Professor Thomas to make his opening statement.

Professor Steve Thomas

I thank you the Vice Chairman.

The mnemonics and jargon associated with nuclear power can make presentations on nuclear power very heavy going, so I have done my best to reduce or minimise it so that it is accessible to lay people.

The Hinkley Point C project will be built and operated by a company one third owned by China General Nuclear and two thirds by Électricité de France S.A, EDF. The plant will have two European pressurised water reactors, EPRs, 3.2 gigawatt, supplied by the French company, Framatome, previously known as Areva. EDF took a majority stake in Framatome in January 2018, so essentially the French nuclear industry is now owned and controlled by EDF, which is owned and controlled by the French Government.

In 2008, the UK Government forecast that the cost of two EPRs would be £4 billion, and EDF claimed first power from Hinkley Point C would be in late 2017. However, by then, the estimated cost was had gone up fivefold to between £19.6 billion and £20.3 billion and one must add on the interest during construction which will probably be £10 billion, to arrive at the total cost of the project of approximately £30 billion. Completion is now not expected until 2025 to 2027, so the project is approximately ten years late.

A key plank to the UK's 2008 nuclear policy was that new nuclear plants would receive no public subsidy, but as problems have mounted this promise has been repeatedly broken, although the promise was only formally withdrawn in 2015. For example, to allow EDF to finance its share of the project, the UK Government has offered to guarantee the loans EDF will need to finance the plant. EDF has sought and has been given guarantees on lost profits, if the project is halted before the end of its 35 year contract life.

The EPR is an unproven design. The first unit of that design is not expected to enter service before next year. Completion of all four under construction globally is significantly delayed and costs have overrun. Olkiluoto in Finland is ten years late and three times over budget, two reactors at Taishan in China are five years late and Flamanville on the north coast of France, a key reference point for the UK authorities, is seven years late and more than three times over budget.

The UK safety regulator, the Office of Nuclear Regulation, ONR, carries out generic design assessment, GDA, for all new designs intended to be built in the UK and this is meant to resolve all design issues before construction is allowed to start. A reactor that has gone through this process can then be built at any site, subject to local siting consideration.

This process was completed for the EPR in December 2012, however, if one reads the ONR final report, it makes it clear major design issues could not be resolved then and the detailed design will only be completed and evaluated during the construction phase, which is completely against the spirit of the whole GDA process.

In 2015, it emerged that parts of the safety-critical reactor vessel supplied by Framatome’s Le Creusot forge in the south of France did not meet specification. These parts were already installed at Flamanville and at Taishan in China. Those which had been advance-ordered for Hinkley C were subject to destructive testing to determine whether the substandard parts would actually be strong enough. Given that the French nuclear safety regulator, Autorité de Sûreté Nucléaire, ASN, had known as far back as 2005 that Areva was using a forging process not approved by ASN and that the plants had been installed in 2012, this issue should have been identified long before the plants had been installed and had became hard to access and test. ASN has decided to allow the start-up of Flamanville, which is expected next year, but requires that the reactor pressure vessel lid be replaced in 2024. ASN has acknowledged that a key factor in this decision is that it is the earliest a replacement part can be made available for installation.

As a result of this problem, ASN ordered the company to review its quality control procedures and it has emerged that quality control documentation has been falsified at Creusot for up to 50 years. This has created major concerns about parts manufactured there for the 58 nuclear power plants in France and plants in eight other countries. The investigation is still ongoing. In March 2017, ASN ordered the production of parts at Creusot for French reactors be suspended because it said that the tools at its disposal were not adequate to manufacture such huge components. It said that the inspection brought to light the fact that the safety culture in the plant was not sufficient to produce nuclear components. ASN lifted this restriction in January 2018 even though there was no suggestion that new production equipment had actually been installed. ASN has no role in supervising production of parts for Hinkley C, which is the responsibility of the British authorities, ONR. Despite the ban by ASN, parts for Hinkley C were being made at the Creusot forge from July 2017 onwards. It is not clear whether ONR approved or was even aware that parts for Hinkley C were being made at that time.

Separately, in April 2018, EDF announced that up to 150 welds in key parts of Flamanville did not meet the required specification. It remains to be seen what remedial action will be needed and what further delays will be incurred at this plant. This places the completion of Flamanville by the end of 2020 in serious doubt and this is an important date for the financing of Hinkley C because completion before then was a condition imposed by the UK Government on its offer of loan guarantees as the British Treasury was unwilling offer loan guarantees for an untested technology and wanted to see a reactor of this design in operation before UK taxpayer money was put at risk. Without loan guarantees, it is hard to see how the project could be financed unless the UK Government chooses to compromise yet again, and withdraws the condition.

The Hinkley C project is unpopular with a wide range of UK interests, including many nuclear supporters, because of the cost to consumers. EPR technology is suspect and the reputation of its supplier is in tatters. Yet as these problems have emerged the UK Government has chosen to compromise and offer further subsidies rather than reconsider.

Nuclear power is just one of many ways to generate electricity and there is mounting evidence that options such as renewables and energy efficiency measures would be a much more cost-effective way of meeting the UK’s climate change goals.

This decision will place huge extra costs on UK electricity consumers in the lifetime of the plant, probably in the order of an extra £40 billion to £50 billion. The contract price agreed for the Hinkley plant's output is £92.50 per Mwh in 2012 money; therefore, it is already over £100 per Mwh in today's money. The price is index linked and will apply for 35 years. It is far above the September 2017 bids for offshore wind projects which came in at about £57.50 per Mwh, almost half the price of nuclear energy. The current UK wholesale market price is only £40 per Mwh. Formal construction at the site will not start before 2019 at the earliest and could be as late as 2021. Construction will provide ample scope for further delays and cost increases. There appears to be a worrying pattern with both the French and the UK safety authorities of inadequate supervision and an apparent willingness to make decisions that appear to favour the companies they supervise. That seriously damages confidence in the independence of these bodies to carry out their crucial role.

I thank Professor Thomas for his presentation.

I thank the delegates for their presentations. It feels very much like putting the cart before the horse in the consultation process. What we are doing is inviting presentations to enable us to prepare a submission, but having listened to the delegates, I am very concerned about the impact we will have at this stage.

If an accident were to happen at a nuclear plant, what would the potential impact be on human health, the environment, transport, the economy and agriculture? Will the delegates refer to studies that would give us an indication of the impact? I know that we have evidence from the ESRI's report, but I would like to get a sense from the delegates of how they think it would impact here on health and the economy.

"Brexit" is the word of the day. We assume that the United Kingdom will leave the European Union and that then it will no longer be bound by the EURATOM treaty. What specific impact will the United Kingdom's withdrawal have on waste disposal and other regulatory issues concerning nuclear energy or in the event of a nuclear accident in terms of transboundary pollution and contamination? On foot of the Espoo Convention, what are the next steps in the process once we have made our submission on the United Kingdom's legal obligations under domestic and EU law?

Reference has been made to the European pressurised reactors, EPRs, that are under construction such as the one in Flamanville in France and the plant in Finland. Both are hugely beset with problems in terms of cost overruns and delays. Do the delegates have concerns that the best laid plans for the plant at Hinkley will bear little to the reality of how this will play out?

Will Ms Uí Bhroin expand on the current position on waste in the United Kingdom? We are an island nation very close to the United Kingdom and have almost been completely ignored in there being timely consultation.

The public has not had sufficient opportunity to put in submissions. We are here now preparing a submission very late in the day. The big question is: what is the point? That is my question to the witnesses. What do they think the reaction of the UK will be to our submission? What can we do to get some reaction from the UK to recognise that what has happened with regard to Hinkley Point C nuclear power plant amounts to a complete omission on the part of the UK and a failure of our Government to consult in a timely way with the citizens of Ireland?

Are the HSE and different Departments prepared in the event of an accident at Hinkley or at any of the other proposed nuclear power sites that are going to come online in the UK in the coming years?

Who will reply first?

Ms Attracta Uí Bhroin

I thank the Senator for her assistance in the matter of this hearing. I will endeavour to answer some of the Senator's questions. What is really important about the issues the Senator raised is that I am not sure anybody has the answers to them, particularly those on the impact on Ireland of a serious event and our level of preparedness to deal with that. That is the fundamental issue to which we are trying to draw the committee's attention today. To what degree has this been rigorously assessed? I hope our analysis has set out our concerns about the approach the UK has taken in that assessment and our concerns about the determination that there is nothing to worry about and therefore an assessment is not necessary. The critical next steps for the committee, if it so chooses, are to urge that there is a full impact assessment conducted under the Espoo procedures and to urge the Irish Government to advocate strongly on it. The issue of preparedness needs wider Oireachtas engagement potentially with other committees to discuss the broader implications of the types of issues we have alluded to. They include HSE comments about the lack of resources it has to deal with such a matter, the Defence Forces and all the emergency response planning considerations and the nature of the liaison.

Questions on the adequacy of the assessment of the impact are like asking how long is a piece of string because there are many different permutations and combinations which might arise and the issue is whether mitigation works successfully and kicks in if an event happens. If one thinks about Fukushima, for example, when the earthquake happened generators were to kick in. Had they kicked in successfully, matters would have been controlled in a different way. However, they were then subject to a tsunami which compromised the secondary system and there were catastrophic implications of what resulted. We must consider the chain of events, the cataclysmic effect and consolidation of different events and multiple failures that go well beyond design. John Large's statement is included as an annexe to our submission. It deals in a lot of detail with the potentially very significant and extraordinary implications of radioactive contamination that could arise in an Irish context. I am not a nuclear scientist so I cannot presume to comment fully on the adequacy of what has been considered but I have seen very serious deficiencies and a lack of clarity on what assumptions and climactic considerations have been taken into account and what assumptions have been made about successful interventions.

There has also been a lack of substantiation of the type of mitigation the RPII report sets out, that is, people sheltering, without examining robustly how feasible it is and how we are in a position to mitigate by sheltering. For example, we all know how problematic it would be in the context of livestock, depending on the time of year. In our discussions we have engaged with representatives of the agriculture sector. They have extraordinary concerns about the impact on livestock, particularly were it to happen in April. It would be at the end of the winter, but livestock would be stuck indoors and could not be released, even though there would be no fodder and no prospect of creating new fodder. It is no wonder that the ESRI refers to agriculture being lost.

It is welcome that the waste issue was raised, as it relates directly to the plant at Hinkley. Professor Sweeney mentioned the risks associated with on-site storage. The legacy of waste from the United Kingdom is being examined, with a focus on geological storage as a solution. Seemingly it includes consideration of sites on the island of Ireland, given that there has been active engagement and consultation with communities in Northern Ireland on what considerations would need to be taken into account. People in the Republic have not been consulted on the matter and there is a lack of clarity on it. I am conscious of the Chairman's warnings at the outset, but we have extreme concerns about the level of clarity that the Government possesses on how advanced procedures are in the United Kingdom, for example, a national policy statement on the matter on geological disposal in England and under its seas, and how alternatives consider sites in Wales and Northern Ireland. It is important to remember that the United Kingdom has to pick up the tab for the cost of this waste disposal. It is looking for a one-stop-shop, that is, one site on which to house everything in a legacy and future waste provision. At this stage of the day, it is unreasonable to rule out transboundary impacts, as the United Kingdom does not know where the site will be, what routes will be used to transport the material and what technologies will be involved in inserting the emplacement for the waste, particularly if it is underseas. Ireland needs to be particularly vigilant. This matter is deeply and intrinsically linked with the consultation on the plant at Hinkley.

I hope I have addressed some of the comments made.

Professor John Sweeney

Within approximately 20 years, the on-site storage of waste will exceed the radioactive storage capacity within the reactor. There is a substantial level of storage on site, with potential hazards.

In terms of impacts, I could not even attempt to give the committee a detailed explanation of what might happen, but there are two pathways - inhalation and ingestion. The former involves someone being outside and exposed to radioactive material in the air, while the latter involves food being contaminated. We only got a glancing blow from the incident at Chernobyl, but we know that 10,000 upland farms in Northern Ireland, Scotland, Cumbria and Wales were affected by restrictions on sheep movements as a result. It was effectively because the sheep were recycling the radioactive effluent through their grazing, droppings and so on. That lasted for a quarter of a century. As such, we are talking about something that has longevity attached to it.

We must recognise that an accident is unlikely and is not something we seriously believe will happen in our lifetimes, but we must consider the worst case scenario properly in assessing developments of this kind. My concern is that not only is the worst case scenario presented not actually the worst case scenario by any means, but it also ignores the impacts on the nearest neighbouring country - Ireland. In that sense, it is regrettable.

These are impacts which Ireland should stand up and shout about. They have not done a proper job in the UK in terms of giving us the information we need to protect our citizens in the event of the worst-case scenario developing. It is a very legitimate concern that should be exercised at this stage.

It might be worth remembering the fire at Sellafield, which was then called Windscale, in 1957. That had a direct impact because of wind. Professor Sweeney might remember that and might speak to it.

Professor John Sweeney

I do remember. The linkage with health effects in County Louth, for example, have not really been proven. The wind vector which would have brought the radioactive material from Sellafield has not been definitively established. That was partly also because we were data deficient in that area as well. Having good data and a proper assessment is so important for ensuring we do not fall into that trap again. That event has certainly gone into the psyche of many people, particularly in Deputy O'Dowd's constituency of County Louth. It is something Irish people are very conscious of.

Professor Steve Thomas

I will address the question about the European pressurised reactor, EPR. I think it is fair to say that Finland, France and China have a very much better record than Britain in completing plants to time and cost. The last time Britain completed a reactor on time was 1965. Our worst case was Dungeness B, which was completed 20 years late. We are not prisoners of history. The future will be what it will be. On the past record, however, there is nothing that gives me any confidence that Britain will do better than China, France or Finland. I do not think the problems with the EPR have been resolved.

Another question was whether it is too late to do anything. I think EDF Energy and the British Government have for several years been trying to portray the project as a done deal, that it was too late to go back on it. EDF Energy has been carrying out preliminary works at Hinkley since 2013. However, the formal start of construction will not be until next year, when first structural concrete is to be poured. That is when the serious expenditure of money really starts. EDF Energy itself has acknowledged that there is a significant risk that start of construction will not actually be until 2021. Significant money has been spent, maybe £2 billion or £3 billion. However, money already spent cannot be got back. The fact that one has spent a lot of money is never a justification to carry on with a project that is seriously misconceived. My strong feeling is that one of the reasons Britain is going ahead with this project is actually that it does not know how to get out of it. The committee could actually be doing us a favour if it finds a way out of this project.

It is very difficult to say much about accidents. We are beginning to accumulate experience, although we should not have had experience. We have had five reactor meltdowns in the past 30 years. The experience with all of them is that they have been chaos. We have not known what was happening. For example, at Three Mile Island, it was not known until five years later that the reactor had actually melted down. For Chernobyl, there was a denial from the Russian authorities that anything had happened and at Fukushima, the residents were evacuated along the line of the plume of the radioactive material from the plant. The experience is accumulating and we must learn from it but it is very difficult to have good plans when, realistically, we will not know what has happened or why it is happening. Mistakes can be made.

I apologise for arriving late. I welcome our guests and am very impressed by the content and nature of their submission.

It seems that if there are five new proposed plants in the UK on the west coast facing us but the massive population benefitting from the energy produced is on the other side of the UK, it does not make sense other than to mitigate circumstances if something goes wrong. We get no economic, social or political benefit from any of the activities proposed. I support fully the proposals for the committee to make a submission. As Dr. Sweeney knows, I have been familiar with the position in the Oireachtas for many years, and even when Fianna Fáil was in government, there was an all-party approach, notwithstanding obvious criticisms. All the parties combined, particularly on Sellafield matters, to ensure the Irish Government was at its strongest at the negotiating table. We interacted with community and environmental associations in Britain and Ireland to get a plan together with which everybody could step up to the mark.

We need to get the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland, RPII, to give its assessment. It is the adviser to the Government on such matters so it should give the clear and absolute position on what we or the Government should do. It would be wise to have representatives of the RPII in as experts but we ought to invite the Minister responsible for energy matters to discuss the matter as well. I appreciate that in many cases we have been ignored in the process but I am thankful action has been taken, notwithstanding the lateness of the day, and we still have credibility in making our submissions real and clear.

I have been to Sellafield and was at Fukushima representing the Government during an EU Presidency at an energy conference. We were brought around the plant and we could see the devastation as we approached. There was a "no-live" zone for around four or five miles around it and we could see the devastation wrought in those communities. Dr. Sweeney mentioned sea level rises and part of the problem at Fukushima was that the plant was built so near the sea that the pumps failed after becoming overrun with water. Part of the issue is the exact location and I take account of the point made by the witness about climate change and the rise in flood or sea water. It is very important that plants should be well clear of any expected scenario of a rising sea.

We must work together and get in the RPII. It should initiate this debate instead of the witnesses. A former Minister, Mr. Dermot Ahern, was responsible for foreign affairs and he was a key mover at a time when Fianna Fáil was in government. He sought a formal relationship between the British and Irish Governments with respect to the nuclear issues in Sellafield. The work of successive Governments led to the right of Irish personnel to go to the plants in the UK and visit after giving reasonable notice. They would be party to and have prior knowledge to any changes. There was a very close relationship in the sense there was a right to participate, be informed, object and visit the site. There was a right to make submissions and be listened to. These have been established but Sellafield has gone off the political agenda. It is a major issue in my constituency and it has the potential to become so again.

There should be constructive engagement. We might not think it but the British energy interest groups listen to everything said in this Parliament relating to them. I have no doubt they will read our wonderful speeches today. Actions speak louder than words. I appreciate the submissions.

I have another appointment shortly. We need a plan of action. We need to know exactly where we are going. Obviously, we will be led by the advice of the witnesses and the RPII. The Government must engage with us. I have no doubt that it will do so. I would like to mention one of the best experiences I had with the Green Party, apart from being in opposition to it for much of my life. I say that with respect, of course. Many years ago, I went to Sellafield in the company of John Gormley and many other members of the Green Party. We were due to participate in a very good conversation on "Morning Ireland". This is actually a joke. The staff of "Morning Ireland" were ringing me and John because both of us were going to speak on the programme. John was due to go on first. His phone did not work so he held onto my phone. He got on and I did not.

He owes the Deputy one.

Yes, he owes me one. I was talking about it at the weekend. This great kind of co-operation is very important. It is important for us to do whatever we can together. The RPII was very clear on the ultimate impact that Sellafield will have on agriculture and, in particular, on farming in Leinster. Reference has quite rightly been made to circumstances in which there would be no fodder that year or the following year. I acknowledge that if anything bad happens, it will have very bad economic consequences for us. The witnesses have my full support.

Ms Attracta Uí Bhroin

I remind the Deputy that it is not just a question of having no fodder - there would also be no livestock.

Ms Attracta Uí Bhroin

We would be talking about the loss of the national herd. We need to be clear on that. I would like to return to the Deputy's opening comments about sites. It is interesting to note that on 15 March last, the UK revisited its criteria for choosing sites after 2025. It has had to revisit the whole programme because it has run so late. When it considers the criteria for sites, it does not consider populations outside the UK. It considers its own demographics, exactly as the Deputy has surmised, but it does not consider our population. Obviously, some of our people are closer to these sites than people in the UK. The consultation process was extended to the public in Germany, but not here. I have to be very blunt in making my fundamental point about further engagement. There is an extraordinary level of frustration, anger and disappointment regarding the extent to which the Irish Government has acted on these matters, particularly in recent years. Irish environmental non-governmental organisations, people like Professor Sweeney and the experts we have brought in from the UK have fought a long battle to highlight the deficiencies in the UK's approach and the lack of support and expertise from Irish bodies and agencies in relation to these matters. I apologise for being so blunt in this respect, but it is an important point to make.

No, Ms Uí Bhroin is very right to say that. Our point is that this is certainly the first time we have had this in front of us.

Ms Attracta Uí Bhroin

Absolutely.

I agree that we should get our experts in here and challenge them on these very points.

Ms Attracta Uí Bhroin

As a consequence of Professor Sweeney's particular expertise, we were immediately able to see that the basis on which the UK had made a screening determination was entirely inadequate. Questions arise regarding what the Irish authorities were doing to seek or examine the Article 37 reports. We had to fight to get them.

Ms Attracta Uí Bhroin

I will hold my whisht. I think it is important. We would welcome an opportunity to make further comments on reflection to the committee and to answer any further questions on the next steps. The next steps are critical. Hinkley Point is not lost. As Professor Thomas has said, the fundamental big step - the financial commitment to construction - has not yet been taken. A full and proper environmental impact assessment of Hinkley Point has not happened. We should be advocating for that to happen. We should be looking to get our own house in order in that regard.

Does Professor Sweeney have anything to add?

Professor John Sweeney

I would like to confirm that everything Ms Uí Bhroin has said is true. I would like to alert the committee to the fact that other stations, such as Wylfa, are coming down the line shortly as well. They are very near Dublin. We have to sort this one out in case we end up in the same situation.

Does Professor Thomas want to make a comment?

Professor Steve Thomas

There is no suggestion the eight sites are the best in Britain. The sites of existing facilities were chosen because it was deemed to be politically impossible to open up greenfield sites. All of the existing sites will be used, except for two in Scotland because it has chosen not to move forward with nuclear power and three which are completely unsuitable for large new nuclear power plants.

I thank the delegates for their presentations. Given the emotive nature of this issue, the presentations were incredibly measured and based on fact, which is especially important for the joint committee's deliberations. I do not have the same level of experience as other members in dealing with this issue. I will summarise what I understand to be the position set out by the delegates to ensure I have the sequence of events right. On the basis of what they have outlined, the United Kingdom's nuclear power plant programme is undergoing major expansion, with five new plants on the west coast which could potentially impact on substantial areas of Ireland. We heard from Professor Thomas that, in his professional scientific opinion, there are questions about much of the modelling used for a risk assessment, a safety assessment and the treatment and storage of waste and that there is clearly potential for transboundary and cross-border impacts. Despite this, it appears the Government virtually excluded itself from the public consultation process last year and at earlier stages. If any of the points I make is incorrect, I ask the delegates to correct me.

We also heard that the French regulatory authorities would not allow certain equipment being manufactured in France for the plant at Hinkley to be used in a nuclear power plant in France. However, they are happy to allow a French company to use them in a power plant being built in Britain. In addition, the Netherlands, Denmark and Germany, which are much further away from the plants in question than Ireland is, have been more proactive than Ireland in engaging in public consultation.

The joint committee spends its time dealing with matters related to local government, planning and housing because, broadly, nuclear power is the responsibility of another committee. Unless one has a constituency or policy interest in the matter, most people will be flabbergasted to learn that we have reached this point.

I concur with Deputy Fergus O'Dowd and Senator Grace O'Sullivan on this issue. The correct approach would be for the joint committee to take a cross-party approach to the issue, notwithstanding any criticism of the Government individual Deputies or parties may have. I urge the joint committee to take such a course. I understand the deadline for it to make a submission is tight. How could we make a submission that would be effective?

We heard about the need for a full impact assessment under the Espoo Convention. Must the joint committee submit a request to the Government to carry out a full assessment or is this a separate submission? The joint committee should issue a strong recommendation that further detailed and ongoing Oireachtas scrutiny is required, not only in respect of the current phase of the consultation but also in respect of the entire process. If I understand correctly, policy responsibility rests with the Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment, Deputy Denis Naughten, and the Joint Committee on Communications, Climate Action and Environment, whereas part of the consultative responsibility continues to reside with the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government and, therefore, this committee. For that reason, work on this matter must be the responsibility of both committees. We should not work separately on the issue but bring both committees together as a matter of urgency to do precisely what Deputy Fergus O'Dowd outlined in terms of meeting the Ministers and relevant officials of both Departments. That would be a useful approach to take.

Given the statements of the delegates and in the light of the more proactive approach adopted by other European Union countries, why has the Government been slow to engage publicly on this matter? Is it because functions have been split between two Departments and the issue has fallen between two stools or is it because of political considerations? What are the delegates' views?

Beyond what I have outlined, are there other effective actions the joint committee could take? I ask the question in the context of Deputy Fergus O'Dowd's suggestion that the joint committee try to agree a programme of steps.

Are there other things we could usefully do to ensure there is the proper level of Oireachtas and public scrutiny, not only over this phase of the consultation but this entire expansion of our closest neighbour's nuclear power plant programme?

Ms Attracta Uí Bhroin

That is a very helpful prompting. We would like to take some of that on board and come back to the committee following an opportunity to confer and reflect on it in the context of further actions that can be taken.

There is nothing to contradict in what the Deputy has set out but the only dimension I would add is not to forget about geological disposal because its implications could be huge. Questions such as what went wrong, and on the experience in other countries versus here, and why, are best directed elsewhere. We can surmise but it is important for this committee to understand that when in the last week or so prior to the consultation concluding last October we found out what was happening with the public in other countries we endeavoured to engage with the Irish Government to seek an extension. Suffice to say, and to cut a long story short, we ended up having to independently escalate our concerns on the requirement to be consulted back to the Espoo implementation committee which then wrote to the Irish Government on 22 December inviting it to uphold our right to be consulted under the Espoo Convention. That is the context this committee needs to be very conscious of.

I am aware that the committee received a letter from the Department on certain administrative issues and technical failures. I may have got that the wrong way around and I welcome that as an acknowledgement. Mistakes can be made and things can go wrong but it is important for this committee and other committees to consider what is being done to make sure those problems do not arise in the future if there is a technical issue or administrative oversight or failure. Is there real clarity on the lines of responsibility, particularly in the early stages of consultation when these conventions provide early and effective engagement when all options are open? The strategic environmental assessment, SEA, processes and protocols urge this. Sometimes when things go so far down the line and an energy, or national, policy statement is defined it is very hard to retrench. That is when we should proactively engage.

Ireland needs to be conscious in its next steps of its own independence and expertise. This is not a nuclear state. We have many resources which are very overstretched across many different sections and agencies. It may be incumbent upon us to consider what additional resources we need in order to examine the matters which have been laid before the committee this morning, not just on the concerns arising from the UK's nuclear programme but the continuing problems in respect of the Le Creusot forge issue and how that impacts on other plants, and our ability to be able to independently assess its adequacy rather than being reliant on the oversight of other regulatory bodies, which arguably have a vested interest in such matters. Our independence is critical if we are to truly protect our interests. We will respond further to the committee.

Some of the ideas floated here on broader Oireachtas engagement are critical. Questions on preparedness are essential but some hard questions need to be asked not just about what has gone wrong but about what will change to make sure these things do not happen in the future because we are aware that there was an absolute lack of clarity on how advanced proposals on geological storage were. With respect, that is unacceptable.

I am not a member of this committee but I am a member of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Communications, Climate Action and Environment which Deputy Ó Broin has referred to and I am glad to add the understanding from that committee. This committee should make a submission by 11 May.

I do not believe it would benefit significantly from calling in the Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment, Deputy Denis Naughten, or his officials because, to be honest, I know what they would say. They would say there was nothing to see, that they were happy, that everything was all right and that Ireland was satisfied, but that should not be preclude the committee from making a submission. I understand it would not be a Government submission; rather, it could come from civil society or a wide variety of bodies. The committee is fully entitled to make a submission.

My advice would be that some of the details included in the presentations given would make a very good submission in raising concerns about the nature of manufacturing and the number of years spent on weather data. Committees often work on the basis that we take the evidence presented and wrap it in a submission relatively quickly. That would be very useful on two counts. First, what Professor Thomas says is absolutely right. The plant at Hinkley may not go ahead. It is such a bad project in economic terms, putting to one side the safety risks. It is increasingly seen as being a bad economic decision. The complexities of financing and the multinational aspects of what needs to happen for it to go ahead mean that it may well not proceed. The committee adding to that process, even at this late stage, might be a further reason to make a submission.

Second, I agree with Ms Uí Bhroin on the key factor in making a submission. In terms of the reactors at Wylfa, Heysham, Sellafield and any other, when it comes to a planning phase, there will increasingly be critical analysis in the United Kingdom, given the economic madness of the process. Making a submission on the plant at Hinkley with a view to further submissions being made means that it is important to make a submission on that basis alone.

This comes on a day when we read in the newspapers that companies like Statoil are telling the Government to wake up, that offshore wind energy generation is now competitive and cheap. It wants to build. In fact, a 3.5 MW offshore wind farm was built in the Irish Sea at half the cost of producing the Hinkley power plant. Things are changing.

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd and others have said we need to get representatives of the RPII to come before the committee in order to hear its views. It is very clear what its view is. It carried out an assessment in May 2013 and its 250 page analysis stated, "There is nothing to see here", even though it did not know at the time whether there would be an EPR or other type of reactor. It gave the all-clear in its analysis. I understand the report looked at a 21-year period for wind energy generation. Has Professor Sweeney carried out an analysis of the report, putting aside the UK Government's report on the Hinkley Point process?

Various aspects can be called into question. One of the most interesting questions raised today concerned a tsunami risk. It came to my mind because last summer I swam at Broadstrand just beyond Courtmacsherry. It is a fascinating strand because the entire headland was washed away by the 1755 Lisbon tsunami. It is an incredible beach. One can see the original wall about half a mile away. Professor Sweeney referred to a tsunami in the Bristol Channel in 1671. That calls into question the assessment of the RPII of risk in respect of the plant at Hinkley, which, for the probability of a mild accident occurring, ranged from 1 in 50,000 to 1 in 33 million. Post what happened at Fukushima, how can anyone see the risk of a serious accident occurring being in the category of one in 33 million when there were events in 1670, 1755 and 1761?

We have no control over tsunami risk. It is a complete act of God in terms of tectonic plates moving, but we have had tsunamis reasonably regularly in recent centuries. Courtmacsherry is in the same exposed position in some ways as Hinckley Point. How can the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland, RPII, come up with risk figures of one in 33 million given what we know now about the risk from tsunamis? In terms of its statistical analysis, why did tsunami risk not appear in the RPII's 2013 assessment given that was after the event at Fukushima, which was tsunami related?

Second, there is a Bill before our committee on transferring powers and functions in that area from the former Radiological Protection Agency to the new Environmental Protection Agency. We have been talking to officials in the Department. When asked directly about it, they do not seem to have any concern about the geological waste issue. Where would I go to read the United Kingdom Government's plans for 10,000 or 20,000 year geological waste storage from the existing plants, let alone the additional necklace of new plants being considered? Where is the best report on its plan the witnesses could show us? Where is the plan for storage of UK nuclear waste?

The presentation has been excellent. We have had this hearing. The evidence presented is very well prepared because parties like An Taisce, Friends of the Irish Environment and others have been engaged in the UK courts, so it is not as if they have come to this recently, even if we have. I would advise taking that analysis and presenting it as the committee's consultation. I believe that will serve many purposes.

Did Ms Uí Bhroin want to respond first?

Ms Attracta Uí Bhroin

Very briefly because I am conscious that many of the Deputy's questions are best directed at the people who are significantly more expert than me.

On the Deputy's last question about the waste storage, the UK Government produced a national policy statement on its proposals. That was a high-level plan associated with a strategic environmental assessment for geological disposal in England and under the seas in England. There are associated White Papers and whatever that are preliminary to that, but effectively that sets out the UK's approach.

There was a consultation on that which was not extended to the Irish public nor did the Irish Government seek to assert its potential right to be consulted on it because I understand it concluded on 19 April, just two days after the consultation on Hinckley. I can make that link available to the committee and it can be passed on.

Did that include the Irish Sea or was it north Atlantic waters? Where were they considering? I am thinking-----

Ms Attracta Uí Bhroin

Its territorial seas.

-----about the RTÉ programme last week showing former activists such as Senator Grace O'Sullivan in boats out in the Atlantic, with barrels of nuclear waste turning over a rigid inflatable boat, RIB, that was protesting against it. Are they considering going back to that type of deep sea-----

Ms Attracta Uí Bhroin

It is at an early stage. They are looking for sites but they have had issues with communities objecting to it in the past. For example, there was such a level of opposition to a site in Cumbria it was not feasible to go ahead. They are coming forward with a national policy statement which states that geological storage is the basis on which they want to store their waste and that it could be on land or under sea. They are also engaging in parallel processes with communities that may be interested in siting that waste.

Are they considering Larne and the salt caverns?

Ms Attracta Uí Bhroin

I will leave that question for Professor Sweeney to answer. There are significant financial incentives and various associated issues, with more vulnerable communities then being under pressure to engage in the process. That is a level of detail we could leave to another day.

To be clear, there are two potential processes the committee may want to consider.

I understand that it has sought an extension so as to respond to the specific consultation on Hinkley, which is ultimately to be directed through the Irish Government, whose considerations I hope it will influence, to the UK. Associated with that, the Espoo implementation committee, which stated that this consultation should happen, is now asking something of the parties. In its March report, which I can make available to members, it agreed to ask its chair to write to the countries concerned and invite them to inform the Espoo committee by 30 April of how they felt the consultation had gone and what they believed should happen next. It would be helpful if the joint committee were to engage with the Irish Government with a view to the latter being proactive in that regard and seeking the full environmental impact assessment and thorough next steps of which the Espoo committee is inviting consideration.

To be clear on the process, can any body, including a committee such as ours, feed directly into Espoo or would it need to go through the Department?

Ms Attracta Uí Bhroin

My understanding is that the request to respond to the Espoo committee is to the Irish Government.

If we were of a mind to respond positively to Ms Uí Bhroin's suggestion, we would have to write to the Minister and say that this was something we would like him to do.

Ms Attracta Uí Bhroin

Yes.

Professor Thomas alluded to issues with the credit guarantee. We cannot assume that Hinkley will or will not proceed. As far as we know, the UK Government has bent over backwards, if I can use that phrase, which is probably unparliamentary, to make this project happen. Critically, there will be a pinch point associated with the credit guarantee and the reliance on the proof from Flamanville has been compromised because of a number of issues, including the delays there. When the credit guarantee comes into sharp focus in 2020, will standards drop in terms of the level of assurance that is meant to be provided by Flamanville and how is that balance going to be managed by the UK? In this matter, Ireland needs to be expert, independent and vigilant.

I have a supplementary question on the process. Am I right in believing that responsibility for the engagement with Espoo still rests with the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government as opposed to the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment?

Ms Attracta Uí Bhroin

I would be indebted to the Deputy and this committee if they could clarify those lines of responsibility. We have endeavoured and failed to do so. What I have gleaned is that, when the process goes through a formal consultation under a strategic environmental assessment or environmental impact assessment, a notification goes to the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government, where the focal point sits, and it effectively runs the consultation. Where there is a nuclear dimension, however, a lack of certainty arises over the extent to which the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment is involved due to its remit over policy matters, how proactive Ireland is in the earlier stages of consultations, discussions, information flows and decisions, and the extent to which the Department with responsibility for heritage is involved. These are critical questions, so it would be of great assistance to all concerned if the committee could clarify them. Consequent on the changes that happened with the formation of the previous Government, the structures dealing with the Espoo and Aarhus conventions left the Custom House to some extent, but not fully.

We will clarify this matter with the Deputy during private session.

Professor John Sweeney

Regarding Deputy Ryan's question on risk analysis, we should question the credibility of calculating a one in 33 million risk.

How they do it is simply by joint probability multiplication; therefore, if we take the once in 10,000 years high water level, are we looking at the high tide coming in at the same time? Are we looking at easterly winds bringing effluent from the site? Are we looking at a stable atmosphere where there might be an inversion close to the plume rise height which might stop it from dispersing? Are we looking at the temperature of the sea? We are looking at all of these unlikely events coinciding. I have already questioned the ability with which we can calculate the once in 10,000 years event from a limited climatological database; therefore, I certainly question the validity of a one in 33 million chance event occurring on the same basis. All we can say is it is very unlikely or likely. I do not think quantitatively we can go down to those levels with any degree of confidence whatsoever.

That was the main question asked. I am not competent to be taken too far out of my comfort zone to tackle some of the detailed scientific questions. It is an issue that is important because we do not have a lot of expertise in some of these key areas, even in the Irish universities. It is a question of capacity building that we have to address for the future if we are to go down this road. Certainly, if we think in terms of the expertise available in Ireland in dispersion modelling, it is an area we have neglected in building capacity and an issue we really need to address in the future.

Professor Steve Thomas

I have a brief comment on the plant at Hinkley. Whether it goes ahead is in the balance, but what is coming from the British Government is not that the nuclear programme was misconceived but that this was just a rogue project with bad technology, bad partners and a bad financing model. We are already seeing the next project coming up, at Wylfa, which is being pushed. The claim is that it is better technology, although I contest that claim, and that there is backing by the Japanese Government which will offer loan guarantees for at least half of the cost. There is also talk about a new financing model and there will be lots of financial gobbledegook spoken about it. The reality will be that the price will come down because more of the risk will fall on electricity consumers. It is a fixed-price, real price deal and the price could be lowered if the possibility is allowed for that the price consumers will pay can go above the rate of inflation. Of course, to see this as an economic advantage is an illusion, but it will create a better headline figure. If the Hinkley project does collapse, the project at Wylfa will be the next one down the line and it has just as many implications for Ireland as the plant at Hinkley and perhaps more.

On consultation, it was exceptionally disappointing that we were completely ignored, while other countries in Europe were consulted on this matter. That probably leads me into the next question as to where we are headed in the context of Brexit. We need to know some specific information from the delegates on it. What are the challenges for Ireland and Europe in monitoring and communicating with the United Kingdom on the plant at Hinkley and any other nuclear plant post-Brexit? Who sets the standards for the monitoring of nuclear power plants and the storage of nuclear waste? Will any of this have an impact on Brexit? As we were not consulted at this stage, where are we going post-Brexit? From listening to the interaction, I am disappointed with the Government's response. We are talking about one site, but there are seven more. At what stage are they? Has consultation started on any of the other sites in order that we are ahead of the game for the next round? Professor Thomas has said we need to give the United Kingdom a reason to opt out. The UK Government has already spent £2 billion to £3 billion on the plant at Hinkley. What reason can we give the United Kingdom to stop now?

Ms Attracta Uí Bhroin

Those are very helpful questions. I thank the Cathaoirleach. I mention the nuclear-free local authorities. They have done an excellent submission on the issue of radioactive waste and the proposals, technical issues and considerations that need to be taken into account. Perhaps the Senator will pass that on to Deputy Ryan. That is part of the materials that we have submitted to the committee. It could be adopted, as Deputy Ryan said.

On sums, maths and probabilities, I was never very good at these in school but I do know that the probability of what happened in Fukushima was one in a million. It happened. That is the simple fact. These things happen. The sums are of very little comfort and that is what we need to be conscious of.

I turn to the questions on Brexit. I do not have the answers. I am not sure anybody does. What we know is that the UK is advancing a piece of legislation. It was originally known as the great repeal Bill, it is now known as the EU withdrawal Bill. The public relations associated with this and the indication of what this Bill was to address was to repeal their European Communities Act and to effectively bring the European legal framework into UK law. That is particularly important from an environmental point of view and the types of matters that are being discussed here this morning. So much of both Ireland's and the UK's law comes from the EU. There is a huge implication. In the context of the Lords' debate on the withdrawal Bill, what we are seeing now is that there are huge gaps and issues on what is being brought in. There are issues on the preambles, objectives, underlying principles around the precautionary principle that the polluter pays and all of these different types of issues. What level of engagement will occur and what the end resolution will be between the House of Lords and the House of Commons, and what will ultimately result in terms of what framework of law the UK has post Brexit, is unclear to everyone.

We understand that the UK intends to stay a party to the two international conventions that we talked about here this morning, the Aarhus and Espoo conventions. Those obligations will still pertain. That is why maintaining our rights and obligations under those conventions is critical to us, particularly in a post-Brexit context. That is a point I make repeatedly. We need to be conscious of efforts there have been to undermine the independence and efficacy of the compliance mechanisms in those committees in recent years, particularly in the last year in the context of the Espoo convention. The meeting of the parties ended in disarray. I add that Ireland did not attend that meeting of the parties. There are serious issues where our interests are very closely linked to what those conventions can provide for us because we have no certainty as to what exactly the situation will be with EU law. For example, what happened in the context of Hinkley Point power plant, the rights and obligations under those conventions and the protections they gave an organisation like An Taisce are critical because it had to dig deep into very small pockets to try to take the challenge in the UK courts. The implications of what we were taking on were terrifying. I was vice-chair of An Taisce then. I am no longer on the board now to be clear to the committee, but it was terrifying for a small organisation like that to take on the UK Government. The only reason we could do it was because there were provisions in UK law, because of the Aarhus convention which protected us from excessive, prohibitive costs in the event that we lost. Those provisions are being undermined by the UK Government and are being fought in the courts by UK environmental NGOs so the ability of Irish environmental NGOs to be able to take challenges on a whole range of projects that could impact on us in the future is very much in the balance and something we have to be extremely conscious of.

The more proactive our Government is at the earliest stages, the better. I am referring to before it gets to the stage where decisions have to be challenged in courts - that is absolutely critical.

A point was made about further plants and UK investment in nuclear power. There is a further implication. Existing nuclear plants are being kept on-stream. They are being extended beyond their original lifetimes. Professor Thomas may wish to expand on issues around the pressures for the UK Office for Nuclear Regulation to allow these extensions to happen. There are real issues relating to consultation rights with regard to the decision to extend the old plants beyond the period for which they were originally to operate. There are clearly associated considerations of risk and impact. The whole issue of nuclear expansion is complex and involves new plants, the implications for old plants, the implications for waste, consultation rights and the uncertainty regarding the legal framework.

Professor Steve Thomas

I wish to comment briefly on regulation. Safety regulation is a national jurisdiction. There are European bodies as well as the International Atomic Energy Agency, but the competency is clearly under national jurisdiction. If we were to tell the British safety authorities to adopt French safety philosophy, we would be in for a fight. The IAEA, European Nuclear Safety Regulators Group and other bodies are useful talking shops but essentially decisions are taken by the national authorities.

The two most advanced follow-on projects are Wylfa Newydd and Mooreside, which is the project adjacent to Sellafield. I estimate they are approximately four years behind Hinkley Point in terms of their implementation. Both sites have had their generic design assessment approved. The designs are ready to build. I believe we are at the stage of negotiating with the UK Government on the terms of any contracts for those plants. The big issue for both plants will be finance and finding a large enough partner to be the main owner. Clearly, Hinkley has Électricité de France but the other two do not have an equivalent. There is talk of Korean Electric Power Corporation coming in, which might be big enough. There is pressure on the British Government to take a direct financial stake in these plants. I would have thought that was inconceivable under a Conservative Government, but given the extent of compromises taken thus far I would not rule out the possibility that the British Government will be willing to take a public stake in the project. That would allow the projects to go ahead on financial grounds.

Seven out of eight of our existing reactors are based on the advanced gas-cooled reactor design. All of these are beyond the end of their design life and there are serious issues about whether they should be allowed to continue in operation. When the nuclear programme was first talked about by Tony Blair in 2006, the assumption was that the advanced gas-cooled reactors would reach the end of their lives and would be seamlessly replaced by these new reactors. Of course, the whole programme is now at least ten years late. Therefore, to keep the nuclear component going will require life extension of at least ten years for each of these plants. There are serious safety issues that the UK Office for Nuclear Regulation is considering now with regard to whether these plants can be life-extended. There will be decisions this year and next year on most of these plants and whether they can be given a further ten years of life.

Ms Attracta Uí Bhroin

A question on Brexit was raised. The UK has indicated that it will launch further consultation on the matter of governance in the context of Brexit. I strongly believe this is something on which the Irish Government should seek consultation.

There are implications on the Good Friday Agreement and areas of co-operation around environmental matters. How these issues will be managed, what the governance arrangements are and what mechanisms there are for challenging decisions etc. are all key considerations which we need to be conscious of and feed into at this early stage of consultation. There are broader issues on Brexit, governance, watchdogs and in the context of the devolved administrations which have environmental responsibility in the context of Brexit, where the precedence of EU law is no longer there. There are key issues, particularly in the absence of a Northern Ireland Executive. What is fed into those consultations from an Irish and all-Ireland perspective will be critical so I am glad that issue was raised.

There are no other questions. I thank all the witnesses for attending today and engaging with the committee. The committee is in a consultation process and will be submitting a report on this issue. I propose that we go into private session to deal with some housekeeping matters. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Charles Stanley-Smith

On behalf of the Irish Environment Network, IEN, and the Environmental Pillar, I thank the committee for a very reasoned hearing of our case.

We will now go into private session.

The joint committee went into private session at 2.02 p.m. and adjourned at 2.28 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 9 May 2018.
Top
Share