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JOINT COMMITTEE ON INVESTIGATIONS, OVERSIGHT AND PETITIONS debate -
Wednesday, 20 Jul 2011

Orders of Reference of the Joint Committee: Discussion with Ombudsman

I remind Members of the policy of turning off mobile phones completely, not leaving them in silent mode. They interrupt and interfere with the recording system and the last thing we want is for the contributions of members to be distorted.

This meeting will consider the engagement between the committee and the Office of the Ombudsman. I am pleased to welcome Ms Emily O'Reilly, Ombudsman, Mr. Pat Whelan, director general, and Mr. Tom Morgan, senior investigator. We are grateful to them for taking part in today's discussion. We thank the Ombudsman for the paper circulated in advance of the meeting. We are aware of the call for the establishment of a dedicated committee of the Oireachtas to have an interest in the work of the Ombudsman. As the designated committee, we are interested to hear the views on the Ombudsman on this initiative and how this arrangement can work to enhance oversight and accountability of public administration.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, you are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence you give this committee. If directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and you continue to so do, you are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of your evidence. You are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and you are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, you should not criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I invite the Ombudsman to address the committee, perhaps speaking to the paper that was distributed, before having an engagement between members and the team of the Ombudsman.

Ms Emily O’Reilly

I am very pleased to be invited to address the committee members as they begin work in this new and important Oireachtas committee. I am delighted that, at long last, a formal channel of consultation and collaboration between the Oireachtas and the Ombudsman is about to be set up. I wish the committee every success and I look forward to working with it in our collective aim of serving the interests of people of this State. In my presentation I will say a few words about the functions of my office, how it relates to the Oireachtas and how important that relationship is. I will conclude with some suggestions as to how my office and the committee might work together to support each other in our work.

The Office of the Ombudsman was established under the Ombudsman Act 1980 and commenced its work in 1984. After 27 years in operation it is easy to take the office for granted but before its creation, aggrieved complainants had few avenues of redress outside of the courts. There were few, if any, internal complaints systems in public bodies, and apart from making representations to the appropriate Minister, the only other slight hope of dislodging a civil servant and his or her Minister from a chosen position was a carefully crafted parliamentary question. One commentator at the time described the creation of the Ombudsman's office as "one of the most significant events in the history of Irish administration". It is an accolade that my predecessors and I have tried to live up to by enabling people to have recourse to a redress facility which can be used, without the help of professionals, by any person who feels he or she has been done down by the administration. Quite apart from providing redress for individual complaints, the office has succeeded in securing long-term improvements in the standard of Irish public administration.

The Ombudsman is appointed by the President following a resolution passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas and serves for a six year term which is renewable. I was first appointed in June 2003 and was reappointed for a second six year term in June 2009. I also hold the separate statutory post of Information Commissioner. The Office of Information Commissioner was established in 1998. I am an ex officio member of the Standards in Public Office Commission and the Commission for Public Service Appointments. The secretariats of both commissions are provided by the Office of the Ombudsman. The staffing, finance and information technology requirements of the four functions are managed in accordance with a shared services arrangement which respects the statutory independence of each function, although legislation giving effect to the CPSA merger has yet to be put in place. The director general of my office is the Accounting Officer.

The Office of the Ombudsman deals with complaints relating to the administrative actions of Departments and Government offices, the Health Service Executive, local authorities and An Post. Under the Disability Act 2005 I am also empowered to examine complaints about accessibility to public bodies and the services they provide. Furthermore, my office and the Northern Ireland Ombudsman's Office have jurisdiction with regard to the implementation bodies established following the Good Friday Agreement of 1998. The arrangement has legal effect and provides for liaison and cooperation between the two offices in dealing with complaints against these bodies. The jurisdiction of my office covers "actions taken in the State by or on behalf of the bodies" and a parallel provision relating to actions taken in Northern Ireland applies in the case of the Northern Ireland Ombudsman.

By the end of 2010, the Office of the Ombudsman had handled just over 77,000 valid complaints since it was established. The number of valid complaints received in 2010 was 3,727 which was a 30% increase on 2009, a year in which complaints received had been the highest in more than ten years. The rising numbers are not necessarily an indication of increased wrongdoing by public bodies but are more likely due to the economic downturn which has meant that more and more members of the public have had to engage with State agencies for benefits and other supports, particularly in the area of social welfare. In 2010, 45% of complaints received were in the Civil Service sector, 27% related to the HSE, just over 26% related to local authorities and 1.5% to An Post. The Department of Social Protection accounted for 70% of all complaints against the Civil Service. The resources available to the Office of the Ombudsman and its constituent offices amount to €7.5 million in 2011 with a staffing complement of 92.

It is open to anyone to make a complaint to the Ombudsman and many complaints are submitted by representatives of complainants such as public representatives, solicitors, residents associations and so on. The service is free. Generally speaking, before taking a complaint, my office must be satisfied that it is within jurisdiction, that the action complained of has, or may have caused adverse effect, that the complainant has already sought to resolve the matter with the public body and has exhausted any local appeals processes available to the complainant. We normally ask that complainants put their complaint in writing but this is not an absolute requirement. Complaints can be made at our office in person or through our annual outreach programme where members of the public can meet our staff at regional centres to make a complaint. There is also a facility whereby complaints may be made on-line.

I am legally obliged to report annually to the Houses of the Oireachtas on the carrying out of my functions. I may also lay investigation reports or special reports before the Houses of the Oireachtas from time to time as I see fit. I will speak further about such reports later in my presentation.

An Ombudsman (Amendment) Bill was before the Houses of the Oireachtas immediately prior to the fall of the previous Government but had not been enacted.

Among other things, the Bill provided for an extension of the Ombudsman's remit to 95 additional public bodies in the non-commercial State sector and the third level education sector, including universities and other third level colleges.

The Government's programme for national recovery includes a commitment to extend the remit of the Ombudsman and freedom of information legislation to all publicly funded bodies. While the precise timescale for bringing forward these amendments is not yet clear, I look forward to early progress on these fronts. The establishment of this committee was also proposed in the Government's programme and is an important step in supporting the work of my office.

One of the essential characteristics of a national or parliamentary Ombudsman is the power to make non-binding recommendations to remedy the adverse effects of wrongdoing or maladministration by public bodies. Non-binding recommendations are an essential component of the informality of the Ombudsman approach to alternative dispute resolution - alternative, that is, to the courts. The process is inquisitorial rather than adversarial. The Ombudsman's investigations are conducted in private rather than in public and come at no cost to the complainant. While public bodies are free to reject the Ombudsman's recommendations, they almost always accept them because they respect the authority and credibility of the office.

However, a mechanism is also needed to deal with those instances where public bodies decide not to accept them and this is where the Oireachtas comes into play. To be fully effective, it is important that a national or parliamentary Ombudsman has a supportive relationship with Parliament. It is easy to see why this should be the case. The Executive proposes legislation, the Legislature enacts it, the Executive implements it and the Ombudsman polices the administration of it through his or her complaint investigation role.

My office's annual report, presented to the Oireachtas, is an annual review of that policing role. From time to time, I submit other reports to the Oireachtas. So called "special reports" will highlight instances referred to where a public body has rejected my recommendations to remedy adverse effect arising from a complaint or group of complaints.

On foot of such a report, the Oireachtas or an appropriate committee can choose to call the relevant Minister to account for his or her Department's decision or the decision of an agency under its aegis, to reject the Ombudsman's recommendation. Only two such reports have ever been submitted by my office. One was in 2002, called Redress for Taxpayers, and one was in 2009, called Lost at Sea.

Thanks to the assistance of the Oireachtas Committee on Finance and the Public Service, the recommendations in Redress for Taxpayers were accepted and implemented by the Revenue Commissioners. However, to my great disappointment, the Oireachtas Committee on Agriculture, Fisheries and Food rejected the recommendations in the Lost at Sea report.

I also submit reports from time to time on so-called "systemic" issues, by which I mean trends uncovered by my office through the examination of groups of individual complaints - for example, my investigation of the fees charged to members of the public by local authorities for photocopies of planning documents.

Some other reports may deal with matters of significant public interest which I choose to bring to the attention of the Oireachtas and-or the public generally - for example, the Who Cares? report which I published in late 2010, just some months before the dissolution of the previous Dáil. This investigation looked at the actions of the former Department of Health and Children and of the Health Service Executive. It was based on 1,200 complaints received by my office over 25 years relating to the failure of the health boards and later the HSE to provide for older people in public nursing homes with the result that many had to avail of expensive private nursing home care. The report attracted considerable media attention but again I was disappointed that it was not considered by an Oireachtas committee.

I have provided members with a list of reports of the more important investigations published by me over the years. Many of these reports dealt with issues of a systemic nature and included recommendations on improving administration in the areas related to the complaints which led to the investigations.

The Ombudsman Act 1980 recognises through its provisions the importance of this relationship with the Oireachtas, in particular sections 6(5) and (7) which enable me to submit annual, special and other reports to it, but why is this relationship important? Apart from acting as a valuable support for the work of the Ombudsman, a good working relationship can help to give much needed impetus to the importance of administrative accountability just as the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Committee of Public Accounts do in the area of financial accountability. Second, the relationship can help to forge a democratic link between Parliament and the people. The Ombudsman oversees or supervises the Executive on behalf of complainants and the people generally and reports on its performance to the elected representatives of the people. In this way the Oireachtas, through the Ombudsman, can acquire a body of evidence which facilitates it in holding the Executive to account. That is the theory.

Unfortunately, the experience of my office in interacting with the Oireachtas has fallen some way short of the ideal. Perhaps now is not the time to dwell on these past experiences but rather to look forward to the new beginning which this committee now promises. This brings me to some suggestions on how my office and this committee might work together to best effect.

The programme for Government proposes that the committee will be "a formal channel of consultation and collaboration between the Oireachtas and the Ombudsman, responsible for receiving and debating her annual and special reports and for ensuring that her criticisms and recommendations are acted upon". I suggest that the committee, as a matter of course, would debate my annual report following its submission to the Oireachtas. In addition, it would debate other reports which I submit from time to time. In all, this might amount to two to three debates in a typical year.

My annual report includes case summaries of completed complaints and the committee may want to explore trends in these complaints - for example, repeat patterns of the same or similar complaints against a particular public body. My report may also include a commentary on issues arising from particular complaints - for example, instances where although a public body has acted within the law, the law itself has unfair or had unintended consequences.

An example is my office's investigation report, Lost Pensions Arrears, which was based on the complaints of 200 pensioners who discovered that, because they were late in claiming a contributory pension, they were penalised with the loss of substantial pension arrears. The matter was eventually resolved with the assistance of the then Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs. The committee may want to consider how it could seek to progress amendments to legislation in other cases arising.

The report gives details of the number of section 7 summonses I issue to public bodies. These are notices I issue to public bodies that have failed in the normal course to respond to a request to provide me with information or documentation necessary to examine a complaint. The notice requires them to appear before me with the relevant information on a particular date and, in all cases, they have the required effect. Fortunately, I issue no more than a handful of such notices in any given year, but they are, nevertheless, a useful indicator of the level of co-operation I receive from public bodies. Again, the committee may want to focus on the reasons some public bodies and not others fail to co-operate fully with my office.

Bearing in mind my earlier comments about my special reports and other reports, the committee's potential role in regard to them is self-evident. However, there is one important factor I ask the committee to bear in mind when considering my special reports. A special report, as it will recall, is one I choose to submit to the Oireachtas following a decision of a public body to reject my recommendations to remedy the adverse effect suffered by the aggrieved complainant. The remedy might involve an apology, financial compensation, the payment of a benefit or entitlement wrongly withheld or a change to the operating procedures of the public body. A decision by a public body to reject my recommendation is a rare occurrence. It has happened only twice since my office was established. A recommendation for a remedy will follow from a finding that the public body concerned has been guilty of maladministration.

Following submission of my report, the committee will have to decide whether to uphold my findings and recommendations or, alternatively, the decision of the public body to reject my findings and recommendations. Often this can create a conflict between the public interest, as represented by my office, and the interests of the public body. Obviously, I fully accept that the committee is entitled to reject my findings and recommendations in any particular case, provided that a decision to do so is based on reasoned argument. However, based on my previous experiences with other Oireachtas committees, it would be less than satisfactory if in arriving at its decision in any particular case, the Government applies the party whip to any vote on the matter. These considerations may also apply to other reports which can raise significant public interest matters which may be in conflict with Government interests. In short, my reports can be critical of Government and its Departments, offices and agencies and the committee needs to be mindful of this. The programme for Government proposes that the committee receives: "parliamentary petitions from individuals and groups in the community seeking redress of grievances connected with the public services of the State and with the public administration generally. Its functions would be to act as a "clearing house" directing complaints to those bodies most competent to act on them: the Ombudsman, the Data Protection Commissioner, the Local Government Auditor, the Oireachtas Committee that has oversight of the relevant Department, and so on."

The first matter for consideration is whether the committee will have a deciding role in regard to petitions or whether it will forward them to an appropriate complaint handling body for examination. As far as my office is concerned, we would be happy to receive from the committee new complaints or petitions on matters falling within my jurisdiction and process them to finality in accordance with our standard procedures. We would be happy to communicate the outcome of each complaint to the committee. However, I point out that the Ombudsman's jurisdiction is not all-embracing. There are significant parts of the public service that are excluded from my remit. Some of these lacunae were to be addressed in the Ombudsman (Amendment) Bill, to which I referred.

Several significant omissions would remain following the enactment of that legislation. Subsection 5(1)(e)(i) of the Ombudsman Act 1980 provides that the Ombudsman shall not investigate actions taken in the “administration of the law relating to aliens or naturalisation”. My office is one of the few Ombudsman offices in Europe whose jurisdiction is restricted in this way. I have repeatedly expressed the view that this restriction is unwarranted and that the full range of administrative actions in this area should be subject to investigation by my office in accordance with the terms of the Ombudsman Act. The Council of Europe’s Commissioner for Human Rights, Mr. Thomas Hammarberg, in the 2008 report of his visit to Ireland to assess the human rights situation, noted this gap in the Ombudsman office’s jurisdiction and observed that most Ombudsman offices in Europe have full jurisdiction in this area of administration. One of the recommendations in his report is that there be a review of the mandate of my office, among others, with a view to rectifying this matter. The Ombudsman (Amendment) Bill as currently drafted does not remove this constraint.

A separate restriction is set out in subsection 5(1)(e)(iii) of the Ombudsman Act 1980, which prevents my office from examining complaints relating to actions “taken in the administration of the prisons or other places of custody of persons committed to custody by the courts.” This is a restriction which does not apply in the case of many Ombudsman offices in other jurisdictions and it will not be lifted under the provisions of the Ombudsman (Amendment) Bill as currently drafted. While the Inspector of Prisons and Places of Detention, as appointed by the Minister for Justice and Equality, operates on a non-statutory basis in overseeing conditions in prisons, there is no independent oversight of complaints relating to the administration of such institutions. The committee should consider how it might deal with petitions in this and other areas where there is currently no independent oversight in place.

A third matter for consideration is how the committee might propose to deal with petitions from complainants who are dissatisfied with the decision of the Ombudsman or other independent complaint-handling body on their case. As far as my office is concerned, there are only two avenues open to such complainants. The first is to seek an internal review of the decision, to be carried out by a staff member not involved in the original decision on the complaint; and the second is to seek judicial review of the decision by the courts. As matters stand, the committee would have no role in reviewing my office's decisions on individual complaints. Were it to seek to do so, there would be serious implications for its independence. A fourth issue is where complainants whose case is currently being considered by the Ombudsman complain to the committee on the basis of a delay by my office in completing their case. It will be for the committee to decide whether it wishes to deal with such complaints or, alternatively, whether they should be referred to my office for its attention.

In summary, there are three important principles attaching to the design of a petitions system. First, it should not seek to replicate the role or remit of existing independent complaint-handling bodies. Second, it should seek to respect and protect the independence of those bodies. Third, it should seek to avoid becoming the default location for complaints and petitions relating to areas of public administration where there is currently no independent oversight in place.

I welcome the creation of this committee, which has great potential to support the work of my office and to promote and develop better parliamentary oversight, particularly in the area of administrative accountability. Administrative accountability is an imperative which ought to underscore the public service reform agenda that is now under way. I wish members every success and look forward to working with them.

I thank the Ombudsman for her informative presentation. I invite Deputy Charles Flanagan to put his questions to Ms O'Reilly.

I welcome the Ombudsman and her colleagues, Mr. Whelan and Mr. Morgan. It is highly significant that the Chairman's first invitation should be to the Ombudsman. I hope the committee will have a strong and positive relationship with the Ombudsman and her office and that this engagement will give rise to an enhanced level of public service.

Instead of putting questions to Ms O'Reilly, I propose to make two observations. First, she referred to her intentions in regard to the relationship and interaction between her office and this committee. In that regard, it is very significant that the Chairman of the committee is not a Government Member. I take this opportunity to wish him well in his role. I would go further by developing the point made by the Ombudsman that the committee should act, if not in an independent manner, then certainly in a way that is less dependent on Government. I am conscious that I speak as a member of a Government party with a large majority. However, if the committee is to work to its potential - and supporting the Chairman will be vital in that regard - we should be less swayed by the rigorous application of the party whip. If there was ever an opportunity for any Oireachtas committee to be less dependent on the rigours of the whip, this committee may most appropriately take that approach. I welcome the Ombudsman's observations in this regard, as contained in a report published earlier this year. I hope we will work together on an all-party basis, arriving at decisions by way of consensus rather than taking positions along narrow, partisan and party political lines.

I have no doubt that the revised legislation, which will be published shortly, will, in accordance with the programme for Government and in line with commitments given by the two Government parties in the course of the election, extend and broaden the remit of the Ombudsman's office along the lines suggested by Ms O'Reilly. In her remarks in this regard, the Ombudsman referred to an issue that is of particular interest to me. I represent a constituency where at any one time on any given day, there may be up to 1,000 prisoners. It is in accordance with the proper administration of justice that there be an opportunity for prisoners to have open contact with the Office of the Ombudsman. Ms O'Reilly referred to the reports of successive Inspectors of Prisons and Places of Detention which have for years served as a damning indictment of our prison system. Their observations fell on the deaf ears of successive Ministers for Justice and Equality, as did the findings of many international reports. For example, the Council of Europe's Committee against Torture has repeatedly highlighted gross deficiencies in the system. Prison chaplains do tremendous work for and on behalf of prisoners, but they rarely have an opportunity, as a group, to do more than make a media appearance, write a letter to the Minister or highlight an issue by way of statement or seminar. Should the remit of the Office of the Ombudsman be extended to include matters pertaining to prisons, I have no doubt that remedies will be found to what is a serious issue of justice administration.

I look forward to a positive interaction between this committee and the Office of the Ombudsman. I am confident our mutual endeavours will enhance the administration of justice and the conduct of public affairs in this State.

Ms Emily O’Reilly

I thank Deputy Charles Flanagan for his comments. In particular, I welcome his forthright analysis of how best the committee and the Ombudsman can work together. To be clear from the start, we will work best if the work is conducted along the all-party lines the Deputy mentioned. This might seem obvious on one level, but it has to do with the people members represent, namely, the citizens and foreign nationals in Ireland who approach them and my office for help.

As none of my recommendations is binding, the single greatest weapon in my armoury as Ombudsman is my independence. It is not just the people who must trust in this independence or my impartiality, but the public bodies. I do not take sides. This chain of independence extends all the way up to the level of Parliament. Only twice in the 27-year history of the office has the Ombudsman needed to make a special report but, on such occasions, the chain of independence cannot be broken when a report arrives at the Parliament of the people. It breaks when a committee splits along party lines. Although not fully, I understand to a significant degree the pressures politicians are under in their professional lives and within their parties. However, there is no point in my being the Ombudsman if I do not act independently and impartially. I submit humbly, to use that phrase from yesterday, that this committee cannot operate properly in the public interest if the chain of independence that starts at my office breaks apart at this level. This is not to say that we will not have disagreements, which is fine. I may always want my recommendations to be implemented but, if the committee makes a collective decision not to do so, I will accept it.

I welcome the Ombudsman and her team. There are many new Deputies and Senators. In the last Oireachtas, the Ombudsman came to LH2000 to outline the services available to Members. A repeat of that would be worthwhile and helpful for those of us who deal with the Ombudsman and her office.

In an ideal world, if the Minister, Deputy Howlin, asked the Ombudsman what she wanted to be included in the Ombudsman (Amendment) Bill in 2011 as opposed to 1997, what would she change and which extra powers would she seek? She discussed extending her remit to different bodies, but Ireland is different from the country it was in 1997. Would she incorporate in the Bill any of the experiences and cases she has gathered in the past 14 years?

Does the Ombudsman have links, formal or otherwise, with the other ombudsmen, for example, those for the Garda or the Defence Forces? Is there a collective approach to legislation or trends of cases?

I never associated the word "humble" with Ms O'Reilly. I hope it is not a disease that is catching around these parts. Were the Ombudsman to gain extra powers under the Bill, what extra resources would be required to fulfil her expectations and role?

Ms Emily O’Reilly

In terms of additional powers under the amendment Bill, there is sometimes chatter about the Ombudsman having the power to make binding recommendations. For example, the Financial Services Ombudsman makes binding decisions, but there are particular reasons for this. In terms of alternative dispute resolution, the general view within the world of the public sector ombudsmen is that the way in which we work is the most effective one. While the power to make binding recommendations would make matters easier, it would not be a good development for the people in the long run because there could be a great deal of litigation, defensiveness and so on. It is the informality and the lack of a legal structure around the process that enables so much work to be done.

I have spoken with the Minister briefly in recent weeks. The Government stated that it will extend the remit of the Ombudsman to all public bodies. No one could argue with this. People availing of a particular service should not be disadvantaged simply because it does not fall within the remit of the Ombudsman. When the legislation was first passed in 1980 and when the first Ombudsman, the late Mr. Michael Mills, was appointed, public administration was relatively small and the Ombudsman's remit covered much of it. Since then, public administration has widened significantly, yet the remit has not expanded.

Traditionally, Governments have been leery of including prisons and asylum-naturalisation matters. In the early days, the nature of the Troubles affecting both parts of the island meant there was a leeriness of ceding control over prisons and justice matters to an independent body. We have all moved on and every other European ombudsman has these powers. It is not something of which we should be afraid. In terms of naturalisation and asylum, it is not that my decisions on a particular case would supplant those of the Minister. Instead, I would ensure that the process, as laid down by the law and regulation, was followed. This is where the protection for individuals is found. Deputy Charles Flanagan referred to prisons and prisoners, matters in respect of which there are different opinions and sensitivities. The debate on the issue can be understandably emotional and emotive, but prisoners need to be looked after. Given that they are under the jurisdiction of the State, they should be allowed an independent redress mechanism to address their problems.

Resources are tight. We have discussed the amendment Bill with the Department of Finance and the office recently revamped how it works. For example, we completely changed the way in which we deal with complaints. Under a major change management process, our throughput of complaints has increased by approximately 30%. Our organisation is doing its bit for public service reform without necessarily being prompted to do so. We will attempt as best as we can to manage with our available resources, but this matter will be discussed with the Department of Finance.

I welcome the Ombudsman and thank her for her comments. It is good to have her before us. She referred to the way the committee operates. The programme for Government states that the committee will function along the same lines as the Committee of Public Accounts, which has a strong tradition of being non-partisan. The vote for that committee's current Chairman was the first vote it ever took. People are supposed to leave their parties at the door and treat the committee like an investigative tool. I hope the same atmosphere will obtain at this committee.

Comparing the Ombudsman's role with that of the Comptroller and Auditor General, the Comptroller and Auditor General is on the side of the Committee of Public Accounts and they investigate in tandem. It is not a matter of a report being supplied and committee members fumbling their way through it. The Comptroller and Auditor General briefs members in depth. Perhaps the same could apply in our case.

Regarding the committee's remit, the Ombudsman referred to prisons and asylum matters. Are there other areas from which her office is precluded? If it is precluded from investigating prisons and asylum matters, our committee is precluded by extension. In effect, the committee is defined by her remit. It would be good to know what our remit was.

In passing, the Ombudsman mentioned her joint role as Information Commissioner. As Ms O'Reilly is aware, the remit of the committee is not merely confined to matters relating to her office. All members hope this newly-established committee will not, from the outset, confine its work within parameters that are too conservative in nature. Does Ms O'Reilly see the committee as having a role to play in respect of any problems that might arise in the context of her role as Information Commissioner?

Ms O'Reilly indicated that during its 27-year history the Office of the Ombudsman has brought two special reports before Oireachtas committees. That number seems rather small. Is there a reason for this? Is it because the office was not very effective in this regard or that it was not deemed necessary to bring forward more reports? If the committee is to function, it will, I hope, receive more than two reports from the Ombudsman during the next 27 years. Why were so few reports submitted to the Oireachtas? What was the experience of the Office of the Ombudsman in submitting such reports? Was the process effective, did it lead to change and was it worthwhile? The major story relating to the Ombudsman's report on the lost at sea scheme was the scandalous way in which it was voted down on party political lines. That was very unfortunate. Is Ms O'Reilly of the opinion that the lost at sea report received due consideration and was fairly debated or is she of the view that the committee should revisit the matter?

Ms Emily O’Reilly

As I understand it, the committee is working on its terms of reference and is considering how it will operate. I am not sure whether anything is particularly excluded from its remit.

No, this entire process is designed to collect the information necessary to develop our remit.

Ms Emily O’Reilly

I do not believe it was intended that my role as Information Commissioner would come under the remit of the committee. However, as the Chairman stated, the matter is still under review. Obviously, the role of Information Commissioner is different in the context of the way the legislation is set up. When I make decisions in respect of freedom of information, FOI, appeals, those decisions are binding but they can be appealed to the High Court and, if necessary, the Supreme Court. Once the Supreme Court makes its decision, then the matter is final. In the context of FOI, issues may arise in respect of legislation, the extent of its application, and so on. However, the decision-making process relating to the role of Information Commissioner is very different.

We have obviously compiled many investigation reports. Last year alone we compiled ten or 12 such reports. The two special reports to which Deputy Nolan refers related to the only occasions on which public bodies rejected specific recommendations. As a result, I was obliged to use the ultimate weapon available to me, namely, to bring the relevant matter to the Oireachtas. It was my predecessor, Mr. Kevin Murphy, who was responsible for the compilation of the first special report - Redress for Taxpayers - in 2002. That report was submitted to the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service which debated it and certain recommendations were made. Ultimately, there was a minor change in the law relating to the powers of the Revenue Commissioners. The recommendations were eventually accepted and the committee worked as a unit in respect of that.

I am sure members are familiar with the lost at sea scheme report, the recommendation relating to which was rejected by the relevant Department. After a bit of a battle the report came before the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. I have no complaints about the manner in which it was dealt with and I was given ample time in which to state my case. A lengthy question-and-answer session followed my presentation to the committee and many other people were questioned. However, I was disappointed that the final vote went along party lines. If a committee, collectively or in any other way, chooses to reject a recommendation put forward by the Ombudsman, the least that can be expected is that the individual at the beginning of the chain of complaint should receive a rational and fair analysis of why that recommendation was rejected. In other words, the same level of forensic work that has been invested in the investigation of and the analysis relating to a complaint by the Ombudsman must be replicated, in so far as is possible, by the committee. As I recall, the analysis in the report issued by the relevant committee was confined to a single paragraph, if not a single sentence. That was not satisfactory.

I thank the Ombudsman for her address, which I found instructive. I wish to pursue one of the points made by Deputy Charles Flanagan, namely, that the matters which fall to be considered or reviewed by the Ombudsman should include those relating to the prison service. There is major vulnerability relating to this part of society that are almost akin to those which were exposed in the Cloyne report. I am of the view that findings similar to those in the Cloyne report could be made in respect of our prisons.

The administration of justice, the operation of the courts and all matters relating to the court system are all outside the process of scrutiny at present. Society could benefit from someone such as the Ombudsman being given the power to review, examine or perform inquisitorial work in respect of the performance of the judicial system to ensure it is operating correctly and well. One of the great tragedies is that so much time is taken to even process matters through the courts system. Regardless of whether it is the criminal or commercial courts, it is wrong that matters should be tied up for so long. For example, there are businesses which cannot collect debts due to them not because debtors cannot pay but because they are using the system to delay payment. That is wrong and it is giving rise to tensions in society. I would like consideration to be given to my suggestion in respect of this matter. I do not know whether the Ombudsman would agree that this issue could be contemplated within the range of her work. However, I will be interested in hearing what she has to say.

Ms Emily O’Reilly

I agree with the Deputy's assertion in respect of prisons. The State has a duty of care towards people who are citizens or who are under its jurisdiction, irrespective of what they have done. These people should have an independent channel of complaint open to them.

I accept that there is currently a great deal of sensitivity regarding the Judiciary and the Government, matters of administration and so forth. I do not wish to say anything that would add to the tension in that regard.

The professions are self-regulating and it appears that the curtains have been closed.

Ms Emily O’Reilly

Deputy Charles Flanagan probably knows more about this matter but I am aware that there was a proposal to appoint a legal services ombudsman who would deal with complaints relating to barristers and solicitors. I understand that this development has been postponed and that a new proposal relating to the creation of the post of regulator has been put forward. A regulator would certainly be different to a legal services ombudsman. I agree that many people are extremely frustrated and often find themselves in financial difficulties as a result of issues they have with their legal representatives.

Deputy Mathews raised the question of delays. Was he referring to judges taking time to make decisions or-----

I was also referring to the processing of cases. The entire system needs to be reviewed. There is a frustration that there does not appear to be an adequate number of people who are sufficiently qualified to deal with the volume of work.

Ms Emily O’Reilly

I do not believe my office has ever discussed this matter with the Government. The Swedish Ombudsman has jurisdiction over judges and his remit extends to reviewing complaints in respect of them, primarily in the context of delays in handing down decisions. He can also impose sanctions if delays are discovered. The Swedish Ombudsman has very strong powers in this regard. I am not sure whether this extends to other Scandinavian countries but I am sure Mr. Whelan could enlighten the committee in that regard.

Mr. Pat Whelan

Some of them have similar powers. There would have been a tradition in Scandinavian countries of members of the judiciary being subject to the jurisdiction of an ombudsman. That would be quite unusual in this corner of Europe, namely, in Ireland and the UK.

In terms of the basic role or remit of an Ombudsman, it fits. It is just a question of the most appropriate time or moment for that and whether there are other more pressing issues in terms of lacunae or gaps in the jurisdiction which might be filled first. The prisons were mentioned. The asylum and immigration areas are pressing in terms of having a proper independent oversight mechanism. Everything is possible.

The past four years have highlighted how Irish society, in particular at professional level and institutional level, needs a great deal of fenestration, the opening of windows and powerhosing into the corners. The Ombudsman could be the catalyst to do that sort of work.

Ms Emily O’Reilly

There is increased public acceptance that every body should be accountable to an independent office and that is where this office comes in. For example, one of the bodies proposed to come under the Ombudsman Act is FÁS. There have been quite a few significant controversies in regard to FÁS in recent years and, arguably, had it been under our remit, we may have been able to deal with it. It can be very simple. The proposal is that every public body should come under our jurisdiction. I do not think members of the public would have an argument with that.

I agree with some of the contributors on leaving the Whip system outside this committee. This committee may have a quasi-judicial remit in the future and to have a kind of predetermined Whip system would make a mockery of that element of it. In the report, the Ombudsman discussed putting the Ombudsman's office on a constitutional basis. What practical difference would that make to the Ombudsman's work? In regard to the Good Friday Agreement - even just to track its development - how many complaints has the Ombudsman received in regard to all-Ireland bodies? Has she had a satisfactory experience in terms of their resolution?

Ms Emily O’Reilly

In regard to the constitutional matter, the question the Chairman posed was one I posed when I came into office. I knew this had been in the ether and I saw the office as quite a strong and well supported one by the Oireachtas and the public. I, too, wondered what practical difference it would make.

I had battles in recent years on particular issues, although that has been exceptional and, broadly speaking, the office is well supported. The idea that the office would be put on a constitutional footing was first mooted in 1996 by the all-party committee on the Oireachtas. Part of it was to protect it from attack in that if it was doing something a Government did not particularly like, it could not be squeezed of resources, ignored, its remit narrowed or whatever. As thinking evolved on these things, it was also very much the idea of putting administrative accountability on the same footing as financial accountability. That is where the analogy between the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Ombudsman would come about.

I suppose financial accountability is easy to see. It is sums - one adds and subtracts and one sees it in stark figures. Administrative accountability is not always as clear-cut. As we know maladministration, poor administration and shoddy administration can wreck an economy as easily as shoddy financial regulation can wreck one.

I will give one example of how poor administration can do that. Members will recall the Supreme Court case in 2005 in which it ruled that the State had been illegally charging nursing home fees for a very long time. The ultimate charge to the State was €0.5 billion. For many years and before my time in office - it was in my predecessor's time - the Ombudsman's office had been telling individual health boards and the Department that what they were doing was illegal but that advice was ignored. Ultimately, there was an investigation into why successive Ministers, Secretaries General and whoever were effectively doing things the Supreme Court later found to be illegal.

In a sense, the administration simply did not want to know because it knew there would be a cost at the end of this. Eventually, the sort of sticking the head in the sand approach caught up and the State was forced to shell out for what was poor administration. It had failed to rectify where the regulations were out of synch with the original legislation. That is public administration. Giving the office status, more authority and protection from attack and elevating public administration to the same level as good financial husbandry are the reasons it should be made constitutional. It is a constitutional office in many other countries.

One would not see any immediate practical effect but over time, the work of the office and, therefore, the service people receive from it and the quality of the public administration would be enhanced by virtue of making the office constitutional.

What about the North-South bodies and the Good Friday Agreement?

Ms Emily O’Reilly

There have been very few complaints - only a handful.

Mr. Pat Whelan

There are only a handful of those bodies. In large measure, it has been more of a symbolic thing rather than a practical thing in the sense that both Ombudsman's offices, North and South, are obliged to consult on the resolution of a complaint. As the Chairman knows, these bodies have a cross-Border jurisdiction. If a decision was taken in Northern Ireland, the complaint would be for the Northern Ireland Ombudsman but if the action was taken in the South, it would be for our office. However, both offices are obliged to consult on the resolution of the complaint. That has happened in several cases.

We have very good lines of communication with the Northern Ireland office and it likewise with us. It is quite innovative to see this in operation because it is the only area where two Ombudsman's offices have a legal obligation to work together in this way and it is unique on the European stage. By and large, we find the bodies are reasonably good in terms of their administration. That is why the number of complaints has been relatively small.

I thank the Ombudsman for her presentation and endorse the idea of this committee being outside the Whip system. What happens to the complaints the Ombudsman's office cannot deal with? To where do they go? The Ombudsman said the committee may want to focus on the reason some public bodies and not others fail to co-operate fully with her office. Is she politely asking us to do that or is she just observing it? In any case, can she expand a little on that?

Ms Emily O’Reilly

Does the Senator mean complaints that do not come under our remit?

Ms Emily O’Reilly

One of the things we do in our office is that we attempt to help people at all times. Therefore, we have a system whereby we will attempt to direct people to where they need to go, whether another Ombudsman, a regulator or whatever. We will always attempt to help an individual because we view our office as the last chance saloon for many people. There is an onus on us to try to give them a good service so we try to help as much as we can.

I refer to inviting the committee to talk to recalcitrant bodies. I do not wish to be prescriptive in regard to what the committee does but currently we are exploring how best both of us can go ahead, and that is one area. Bodies that do not co-operate with our office are few and far between and once we issue a section 7 notice they will step up to the plate, so to speak, but that involves time, hassle, resources and whatever when often it is a simple matter of sending us a file, telephoning us or doing something which is not too onerous in most cases. If the committee could help in that it would help to improve our overall service and make us more efficient.

Fáilte romhat chuig an Ombudsman agus a chairde. I have a number of queries following on from what Senator O'Keeffe said. An Coimisinéir Teanga, who is the ombudsman for language, in the report prior to his most recent report referred to non-compliance in that approximately 25% of the prescribed bodies in his case did not play along with the fundamental remit in terms of the Irish language. Is it a similar position in the Ombudsman's office in that it almost gets to the big stick scenario before she gets compliance? The two cases that were brought to the Oireachtas committee, namely, the lost at sea scheme and the one on pensions, were the last case scenario, so to speak, but how much of the resources of her office are used in getting it to that stage? If An Coimisinéir Teanga can quantify it in that 25% of the prescribed bodies were not complying with the basic language stipulations, can the Ombudsman quantify the position in regard to her office?

Another area is accessibility. The Ombudsman stated that the outreach programme is done once a year. Does she find she gets complaints from the regions as well as from the Dublin area? Does she believe there are ways that her service could be enhanced by making her office's service more available in the regions? Would she like resources to be made available in that regard?

On the question of the Irish language, does she get many complaints as Gaeilge, not about the language but about services through Irish, and what is the capacity of the office to deal with those?

Ms Emily O’Reilly

Generally, compliance is high in the office. We are quite an elderly office in regard to Oifig an Coimisinéir Teanga and we are perhaps slightly more embedded in the administration. When any office is established it takes a while for the relationships to settle.

We get complaints and people telephone us. We have designated officers, including the Senator, who respond in Irish. Our reports are available in Irish and English and we will respond to people in Irish if that is the way they want us to respond to them.

We do regional visits. We are always trying to find ways of engaging more people. That is the reason we had the initiative with the Oireachtas Members some years ago. We also link with the Citizens Information Board. We developed a particular initiative, called the Link Service, to help people, through the Citizens Information Board, to come to our office. We are constantly updating our websites. We are now thinking of going on Facebook and perhaps Twitter. It is inevitable. We are constantly looking at ways to engage people. We see the role of Oireachtas Members as very important, and I do not say that just because I am before the committee. They are much closer to the people than ourselves. We have noticed over the years that some TDs and Senators use the office frequently and generally with good results. At least they know they are doing their best for their constituents, although others do not use it so much. We try to make it as easy as possible for Members of the Oireachtas to get in touch with us and we value that input and that connection.

The Ombudsman is very welcome. I realise we are in the early stages of the life of this committee and I missed the first meeting because I was on holiday. I want to raise an issue that the Ombudsman is investigating, although I do not want to prejudice the case in any way. Our time is limited, given that this committee will not meet again for another six, eight or 12 weeks. The Ombudsman's office is investigating the payment of rent supplement to those on disability allowance, children with intellectual disability. The Ombudsman may or may not be aware of that case. I will address it for her later. I sent notice of this matter to the committee secretariat earlier and obviously it cannot be on the agenda but I would appreciate if we could find some way of liaising with the Ombudsman on this in the next week or ten days. This is the forum in which to raise such issues of concern. I am the parent of a child with an intellectual disability.

Chairman, I have to ask if this is appropriate.

I will allow the Senator to come back in but I have to say that a particular issue should be addressed directly to the Ombudsman and not through this committee.

It is an issue that affects members of the public and will affect this committee. This is the forum in which we will address these issues, a point which I believe the Ombudsman made in her submission, namely, that this link must be forged between us to allow us raise these issues, and raise them in a public forum. It is pointless being here if we do not intend to do that. We will liaise with the Ombudsman privately but will be unable to raise public issues. I want to be clear that this case will affect young adults with an intellectual disability countrywide, not just in a local area. I will liaise with the Ombudsman later on this case. Thank you, Chairman.

I warmly welcome the Ombudsman and her team, Mr. Whelan and Mr. Morgan. I welcome Deputy Charles Flanagan's earlier contribution regarding independence of this committee. There are great opportunities for this committee to work in conjunction with the Ombudsman for the greater good of the people. Having studied the committee's work programme and the scope of the work in which we can engage, there is potential for us to help the Ombudsman in her role and for her office to help us in our role.

The Ombudsman cited the case of the charges made by nursing homes, which was of particular interest to me in the past. I had continuously raised that issue at health board level many years ago and I was aware that the advice of the Ombudsman office was being ignored at that time. That upset me because what was happening was unfair. If the advice of not only this Ombudsman but her predecessors had been taken, it would have saved this State considerable money.

Any way in which this committee can work with the Ombudsman's office in enhancing and enlarging her role would be beneficial. Nobody would dare question the independence of her office in her term or that of her predecessors. They have all worked extremely hard in a fair and independent fashion. That is why I welcome Deputy Charles Flanagan's comments that our committee should be completely devoid of politics. If we ensure that, we will be more successful in what we are here to achieve.

I look forward to working on this committee. I also look forward to working with the Ombudsman's office and I hope that, collectively, we can do a good job.

Ms Emily O’Reilly

Thank you, Deputy.

B'fhéidir go dtófaidh muid an cheist deiridh ó Teachta Mulherin.

I welcome the Ombudsman and her officers. I apologise for being late. I was speaking on a matter in the Chamber. Therefore, I may repeat a matter that was raised previously. The Ombudsman is dealing with individual complaints in regard to prescribed bodies. I am still trying to get a handle on this committee. It is nice to think we can all work together but there is no point in there being duplication. We need to have a constitutional and statutory basis to give us the power to do what we want to do. How does the Ombudsman welcome or view this committee or how can we help her in reality, aside from what she is doing and our reporting matters to her?

I have a concern, which may not be a matter of concern for the Ombudsman. Investigation, cross-examination and so on are skills. Obviously we need to be well-supported; it is not just a case of putting a question when something jumps into one's head. Part of the question is with regard to our functions and so on, which Ms O'Reilly is very clear about - maybe I am the only one who is a bit unclear about exactly what we will do and the end result of it, and how we relate to each other. What are Ms O'Reilly's views on that?

Ms Emily O’Reilly

As I said earlier and as the Chairman has said, it is early days for the committee. The committee is getting on with its business of sorting out its own terms of reference. This meeting will help it to some degree in so far as it relates to my office, but obviously there is still work to be done. Both sides agree there is no point in re-inventing the wheel. The committee should not need to do work I have already done; it should not supplant my role, nor should I supplant its role. It is worth taking some time in clarifying that. I do not see why it should necessarily be a cheerleader or have a purely supportive role. The committee members have their status as parliamentarians. The committee has its status as an independent committee and I am sure it will build on that and be effective and powerful. Most importantly, Departments and public bodies will listen to it. That is some of the work the committee has to do.

There are various issues outside of individual complaints that my office raises over the years. For example, I had a lengthy report on nursing home care last year that is still, in a sense, stuck in the system; there has not yet been a response from the Department of Health. There are other issues I raise over the course of a year with regard to particular areas of investigations I am doing. I envisage that the committee would invite me in to discuss them and examine the potential within the committee to push particular issues further up the agenda of the Government or the relevant public body.

I do not want to be too prescriptive. It is a new committee and everybody, no more than myself, is finding their way. In terms of the power and effectiveness that I have and the power and effectiveness the committee has, if we work well together, we will increase both. The outcome will be not just a better return for the individual citizen but an improvement in the overall quality of public administration in the State.

Ar an pointe seo, ba mhaith liom a rá go bhfuil muid fíor-bhuíoch as ucht an chur i láthair sin. We very much look forward to working with Ms O'Reilly in the future. I thank her again for her presentation today. Go raibh míle maith agat.

Ms Emily O’Reilly

Go raibh míle maith agat, a Chathaoirligh.

Before we go into private session, I would like to clarify something for Senator Mulcahy. At the moment, our work is to decide on our remit. On a particular case for investigation, we do not have the power to do that yet, but that may be among the first petitions submitted to the committee in the future.

The joint committee went into private session at 5.15 p.m. and adjourned at 5.30 p.m. sine die.
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