I welcome Mr. Declan Doyle, head of development, IT Carlow; Mr. Brian Ogilvie, external services manager, IT Carlow; Mr. Shane Rooney, Carlow Adult Educational Guidance and Information Service; Dr. Willie Donnelly, vice president of research, Waterford Institute of Technology, and director of the Telecommunications Software and Systems Group, TSSG; and Dr. John Wells, head of the school of health science, TSSG. They are all very welcome. They are to take on board the note on privileges I read at the start of the meeting. I call on Mr. Declan Doyle to make his presentation, and he is to be followed by Mr. Ogilvie, Mr. Rooney and Dr. Donnelly, respectively.
Third Level Sector: Discussion with Waterford IT and IT Carlow
Mr. Declan Doyle
I welcome the opportunity to address the committee. I will give a brief overview of IT Carlow and its current position. I will then hand over to Mr. Brian Ogilvie, who will discuss the enterprise development aspects of what we do in the institute. I will then outline some of the challenges and opportunities we face.
The institute is committed to research and enterprise-related activities. We will discuss some of these as we make our presentation. In common with the other institutes of technology, IT Carlow is a little over 40 years old. We intend to maintain our technology and technician-based training at levels 6 and 7 on the national framework. Jointly, the institutes have committed to this. We work right up to PhD level. While I will not speak for Waterford Institute of technology, I consider both institutions to be university-level institutions. IT Carlow delivers programmes in three counties, namely, Wicklow, Wexford and Carlow. We also have a very strong initiative with the Defence Forces, in particular, and the Irish Aviation Authority. We have strength in the areas of aviation and aircraft and aerospace engineering.
We deliver 82 programmes, from bio-environmental sciences through to engineering, ICT, business and accounting. We ask ourselves from where demand is coming. We need to examine what our graduates are doing and the types of companies to which they are adding value. We have a very strong humanities department and are providing courses in youth and community development. This is adding to the social fabric of the region.
In addition to facilitating Masters degrees by research, particularly in biotechnology, software engineering and electronics engineering, we have taught programmes, such as an MBA and MSc in IT management. There are other programmes listed in the documentation we have provided.
One challenge we face, which is partly good, is filling our postgraduate places for research and taught programmes, particularly in the areas of ICT and biotechnology. Our final-year honours degree graduates are successfully gaining employment, including quite well-paid employment, in the region and beyond. This is a very positive sign. As a consequence, our business graduates, particularly accounting graduates, are also finding employment relatively quickly after graduation owing to the upturn in export-led business. Obviously, there is a need for graduates with business skills.
One of the most important issues for us, which will require much of the energy of all our staff over the next couple of years, is the development of the technological university. I assume there will be questions on this. Between February 2012, when the landscape document was issued by the HEA, and 31 July, when the joint submission was made by the south-east institutes of technology, much work was done on developing linkages and collaboration between the two colleges. This came to a halt while the submissions were being reviewed. It is only in the past couple of weeks that the Minister has issued recommendations and made a decision. The work that will be done on stage 2 of the application will be an important part of the activities of our college in the next six to nine months. I hope that, from there, we will proceed to stage 4 and eventual redesignation as a technological university.
We are here to talk about our RDI activities and the ways we develop entrepreneurship. People in the room will be familiar with Maslow and his psychological model. He said that when a country was trying to build and develop, it did not need 100 philosophers, it needed 100 entrepreneurs. Much of what we have been doing in Carlow in recent years is developing our infrastructure to support business ideas through technology transfer, protection of intellectual property and the development of fully commercial organisations which provide jobs. Mr. Ogilvie will talk the committee through the model we use in the college.
Mr. Brian Ogilvie
IT Carlow places a strong emphasis on research, development and innovation. We try to utilise the resources, infrastructure and research expertise of the institute to build entities which can move through technology transfer processes into industry. We work with entrepreneurs and start-up companies. We recognise the continuing need to enhance and expand business liaison, regional involvement and commercialisation activities as an essential part of the overall strategy of the institute.
Our enterprise development framework looks at developing spin-in companies which come from outside the institute and spin-out companies which develop out of research activities within the college. There is a diagram before the committee. It shows in green the potential funding areas from which we can source finance to allow these activities to happen. In red are shown the training programmes and support structures which allow companies to develop. These are located in specialised buildings which are focused solely on enterprise development. Projects emerge from a variety of finance and funding sources, including INTERREG. We have operated a WISE project on sustainable companies in the engineering sector. That project has been completed for about 12 months. We are using Enterprise Ireland's funding structure, including innovation vouchers, to work with small and medium enterprises to develop a sense of innovation and provide them with a taste of the research expertise we have at the IT.
We have run the enterprise platform programme for seven years. We bring potential entrepreneurs to the institute to develop knowledge-based, export-focused companies. The end goal is to develop high potential start-up units. The new structure of the enterprise platform programmes consists of the new frontiers programme from Enterprise Ireland, which is in its second year. It is the second year we have run it in collaboration with Waterford Institute of Technology. Another programme we have just launched is called Inspire, which stands for initiating pathways for researchers, entrepreneurs and SMEs. The idea behind the programme is to get SMEs involved in innovation and recognise the importance of research, development and the exploration of new avenues to build new business platforms into their companies.
New infrastructure at IT Carlow includes a research, development and innovation building which is under construction. It will be ready for occupation in January 2014. We will consolidate all our research groups in the building. At IT Carlow we have what we call COREs which are centres of research and enterprise. These represent concentrated areas of expertise in specific fields, including industrial design, security, environmental sciences and computer gaming. By consolidating these research groups with incubation and start-up companies in one building we hope to add to the enterprise development structure at the institute.
Mr. Declan Doyle
We are committed to all levels of the national framework from six to nine. We deliver programmes at all of these levels through our lifelong learning centre which focuses on flexible learning, continuing education and employee development. Depending on whose figures one looks at, the institute has the highest or second highest proportion of learners who come through the lifelong learning centre model. We are approaching a figure of 30% of learners coming through that mode. We work with local companies to identify customised programmes, as well as our normal degree programmes. The training from levels six to nine is accredited. Springboard is an important part of what we have done in labour market activation measures in the past couple of years. We have had some good outcomes since the programme started. The results from the next round of Springboard programmes are being announced on Friday. We are very optimistic for a positive outcome and that we can start to engage with the employee development needs of clients.
We have opportunities, as well as challenges. One of the opportunities is to harness our teaching and research to link with specific economic objectives within the region to better match education provision with industry needs. Part of this depends on greater engagement with industry and part of it involves examining our internal processes. Some of us may have sons and daughters concluding their leaving certificate studies. They will enter college on a three, four or five year programme in September. We are committed to delivering these programmes, irrespective of needs and changes to policy. There is a commitment to learners once they embark on a programme. The speed of change is affected by this, as one cannot change midstream. Another opportunity involves knowledge creation through research and technology transfer. We are engaging in that process in our fourth year undergraduate programmes and across our masters level research to identify where there are opportunities.
The big challenge is the integration of local, regional and national policy to provide for a level of joined-up thinking in which we can all engage. HEIs require better engagement and inclusion within regional development action plans to match education and industry needs. Part of this involves the development of a better framework for engagement, regional development and understanding. We are currently working on this.
Mr. Shane Rooney
I work in the adult education guidance service of County Carlow VEC which is changing its name to Kilkenny-Carlow ETB. I am here to address facilitating employment opportunities in the south east.
There are 40 adult education guidance services nationally. As set out in the operational guidelines from the Department of Education and Skills, we offer a guidance service to adults which includes impartial adult education information, one-to-one guidance and group guidance to help people to make informed educational, career and life choices. There are offices in Carlow, Kilkenny and Dungarvan, while outreach work takes place in rural towns, including Castlecomber, Callan, Wexford town, Waterford city and various other locations. My service has three staff members and 2,000 beneficiaries come through our doors annually. Last year we had 512 sit-down, one-to-one appointments, met 643 people in groups and fielded 921 general public inquiries. Our service is provided for adults and young people aged 16 years and over with low or no formal qualifications and low literacy levels.
The Government's activation schemes have identified priority groups with whom we can work, including in particular the long-term unemployed and the under employed. People who are working part-time but could benefit from full-time employment or better opportunities for employment and training form a significant part of our work. We also meet people in the workplace who have basic skill needs and education and training boards are important in providing for such individuals. We also deal with people aged 16 years or older and those in adult literacy and community education programmes.
I will now speak about the challenges for the south east from an adult education guidance perspective. I am sure members have studied the Forfás south east region employment plan, Spotlight on the South East, which was published in 2011. Compared to the national average, the south east region has a higher concentration of people with limited educational attainment in both the labour force and the unemployed cohort. The fall off in opportunities in construction and traditional manufacturing has had a particularly hard impact on certain occupational groups in crafts and production operatives. That trade and technical training gap has not been filled. In 2008, our service dealt with 80 adults who applied for third level courses through the CAO. That is a higher number than in any subsequent year. These are individuals who recognise that prospects in construction are limited and hope to find new career opportunities. The Forfás report argues that a focus on activation measures, career advice and progression pathways for the unemployed is needed, including upskilling with accredited qualifications. It is a huge step for our adult clients to return to education. If someone has been out of education for 20 years, he or she probably has a negative attitude towards education.
Reintroduction into employment is a slow and steady process for someone who has been unemployed for years. It takes time to rebuild confidence and self-belief but nothing succeeds like success. We begin with short courses aimed at building confidence and re-familiarising clients with routine and challenge. Much of our work involves educating unemployed clients who may come from a family background of long-term unemployment. How can one progress and achieve in the education system when there is no family history of formal education? We set out short, medium and long-term goals for clients and regard any academic success as positive, be it FETAC level 3, 4 or 5. If I got €5 every time a client told me he or she had hands-on experience but lacked the paperwork to prove it, I would be a rich man. We need to find ways of incentivising learners and unemployed clients who have extensive experience to return to education and the workforce. For an unemployed person returning to education, there is a big gap between certifications and qualifications.
In regard to the policy challenges, many of our clients are not aware of the opportunities available to them. The Forfás reports are not filtering down to the general populace and clients may have limited awareness of science, technology or enterprise. They need to be shown how to avail of such opportunities through training. There is a specific need for clients aged between 40 years and 50 years to be given confidence boosters through, for example, exemptions from certain modules in recognition of prior learning and experience. Compared to countries like Germany and Holland, there is limited recognition in Ireland of prior experience. This is one way of inviting clients who have extensive hands-on experience back into the workforce and giving them a leg up. We could recognise some of their informal experience while also persuading them to achieve formal certifications in other areas. Early school leavers require basic skill acquisition tools and to learn how to learn. There is a gap between unemployment and certain high technology positions but it is often perceived as much wider than is actually the case. Once clients have the right attitude they can benefit from education. In many cases, it is lack of affirmation and self-belief rather than lack of ability that discourages adults from returning to education. Support and encouragement from adult guidance services and others is especially important when clients begin the process of developing their skills. As they persevere in education and develop independence and confidence in their skills and abilities, they no longer require the same level of support. They can move up the national framework of qualifications and gain unemployment while also contributing more to their local communities.
Our clients tend to have developed their skills on the job but they lack paperwork. Many of them have only partially completed apprentices or college degree courses. They may have left education to take up jobs during the boom period. Recognition of prior learning would be of great benefit in terms of bringing them back into education. Programmes should be designed to build confidence and reintroduce capable people to the workforce. For example, Waterford Institute of Technology's access programme, which runs between 4 p.m. and 7 p.m. a couple of nights per week, is very beneficial in helping our clients to learn how to learn and build confidence. Courses should be provided on a flexible basis, particularly during evening hours. At present clients must finance themselves on many of the lifelong learning courses. Under employed people in particular need educational opportunities in the evenings. Springboard is going some way towards meeting that need by providing classes during the evenings. Many under employed people are afraid to take up educational opportunities because they think they will be prevented from taking up full-time job opportunities. It is a catch-22. If the courses were provided free of charge during evenings, they could take up employment opportunities while also reskilling.
The Indecon report on JobBridge contained several interesting observations from the adult education perspective. The report noted: "An issue for the scheme concerns whether this group represents individuals who are most at risk of extended unemployment." Even though the highest unemployment levels in Ireland are among people in the adult and further education sector, JobBridge caters mainly for graduates. Why does it not cater for people in further education or those who want to return to education or employment after being out of both for a long time? The question also arises as to whether JobBridge should focus more closely on assisting those who have experienced long-term unemployment. It ignores the long-term unemployed even though they are a significant percentage of the overall number of unemployed.
That might be something to examine.
Other impacts highlighted by participants included that the scheme helped to boost their self-confidence, identify job opportunities suited to their abilities and kept participants close to the jobs market. That is huge. Once one is out of employment for a couple of years it is very difficult to get back into the frame of mind and the routine one needs to work in a job. Another impact was that it helped participants to establish contacts and networks. We constantly hear from our clients that there is a contact network surrounding being in employment. If one is outside that employment framework, as one could call it, one is not meeting or networking with people who are working; therefore, one does not know what is out there. One is out of the loop, so to speak. Internships for adults who are non-graduates would give them the opportunity to be closer to the workforce and the opportunities to stay in the loop.
I will refer to a few more issues. One is provision of workplace relevant skills. There is a huge need for greater co-operation between private industry and education. That is obvious to me in my job and I have looked at the situation in Germany and other countries. The FÁS equivalent in Germany, for example, is two thirds supported by the private sector. There is huge co-operation between private and public bodies in providing employment, but that does not appear to happen here. There is a huge gap and there does not appear to be a huge conversation between employment and education providers at any level, whereby they can talk to each other, share opportunities with each other to look at what is coming down the track and build on what each has and needs. A bottom-up approach is needed in course provision to match employer needs with educational opportunities. There is no point in putting on countless courses if there is no possibility of getting a job from them. A top-down approach where the Government encourages increased co-operation between employers and education and training bodies is needed. Public private partnership is used all the time to build bridges and motorways. Why is it not used more to facilitate employment opportunities?
As regards the Forfás recommendations, two thirds of the dual system of trade education in Germany is financed by the private sector. There is far greater public private co-operation. The report also highlights the German model of establishing career paths. For example, there are 650 types of apprenticeship in Germany, while there are fewer than 100 here. One undertakes an apprenticeship to become an ice cream maker. The apprenticeship framework appears to have fallen away and I hope the new SOLAS will replace it.
There also appears to be an over-reliance on generic transferable skills. While important, there are very few secretarial business studies opportunities available for people who have done a FETAC 5 course; therefore, specialist industry-related upskilling must become more widely available. An example is plastic injection moulding positions which still remain unfilled. These types of specific apprenticeship trade-related skills must be catered for, but it does not appear to be happening to a huge extent.
To refer to some solutions, one is attracting employees affected by lack of knowledge of career opportunities and negative perceptions of manufacturing. The "Making it in Ireland: Manufacturing 2020" Forfás report highlighted this. Again, there is a lack of clarity about defining career paths and a lifelong career path whereby one can move from one employment opportunity to another and build one's career. The Germans have the dual system and the United States has stackable credentials, whereby one can build on the skills and qualifications one already has and build one's career as one proceeds. That type of stackable credential, recognition of prior learning and building on formal and informal learning does not appear to happen in this country.
On the next solution, learning pathways to meet occupational standards and provide progressive routes, clients of our service in the past have found themselves at dead ends. One could be qualified as a carpenter or a civil engineer, but how does one change from that area into another? One might have specific trade related construction craftsman qualifications, but one is given no credit for this to come back into the third level sector, whereby one can use the credits one has already gained and be invited back into some other line of work, that is, to move across and then move up the national framework. What we are talking about are pathways that match in company and formal education learning pathways which provide opportunities for cross-linkages and joint provision, such that industry is tracked to higher education qualifications such as time served as an engineer. Multiple partners are required, as well as industry leadership. Where everybody comes together in a region such as the south east they see what skills gaps there are and work with employers to fill them. I was at a talk in the south east previously where employers stated they had come to talks with education providers but that they had not felt particularly welcome. The issue is to invite employers in and bring them to the table as equals.
There are a couple of conclusions. There must be greater interaction between enterprise bodies and agencies and education and training providers in addressing skills demands. Momentum, for example, is very popular for the youth, but it only caters for a certain amount of under-25s in terms of youth unemployment. More must be done in that regard. Education and training provision must have a greater alignment with enterprise skills needs, both current and future. In my own daily work Carlow VEC which will now be Kilkenny-Carlow ETB has responded to fill the gaps by offering more courses aimed at labour market gaps such as food science and information technology related courses. Once clients and adult learners know about these opportunities they can move on to Carlow IT and Waterford IT to study these areas. If one does not know about them, how does one know one is not good at them? Just because one has not tried something does not mean one is not good at it. Many adult learners would not know about the opportunities available or where the jobs are because they have no exposure, or in the past they had no exposure, to technology or employment areas. All promotion of STEM - science, technology, engineering and mathematics - appears to be aimed at leaving certificate students and those coming out of these areas, whereas adult learners and further education participants are just as capable, if not more so, of taking up these opportunities, but they have very limited awareness of them.
I thank the committee for its time.
Dr. Willie Donnelly
Waterford Institute of Technology welcomes this opportunity to speak to the joint committee.
Economic growth is increasingly related to the capacity of regional economies to change and innovate. Regions and cities have become the primary spatial units where knowledge is transferred, innovation systems are built and competition to attract investment and human talent takes place. The EU innovation flagship emphasises the smart specialisation of regions as key to future competitiveness. The economic development of the south east requires investment in research and development infrastructure, the creation of human capital and the enticement of experts and entrepreneurs to the region. Strategies are required to create an innovation culture which will drive the growth of indigenous industries, attract foreign direct investment and support the commercialisation of research and the professionalisation of manufacturing and services across a range of sectors. The challenge for the south east is to mesh these activities together in a cohesive, co-ordinated, collective manner to drive sustainable regional economic growth. Fragmentation of effort must be overcome through the production of an integrated regional development strategy. This strategy should incorporate an investment plan to attract the best scientists, engineers, professionals and entrepreneurs to the region which will, in turn, attract multinational industries and high potential start-ups.
Waterford Institute of Technology plays a pivotal role as a catalyst for regional economic development, mainly through the innovation of its research and the creation of an effective knowledge transfer framework. In the past 12 years the institute has secured €112 million in research funding through competitive bidding. The guiding principle behind our research strategy is the development of research centres of critical mass and international reputation which support the economic development of the region. However, building competitive advantage through research and innovation requires the creation of a sustainable innovation environment. An open innovation environment is an environment that interconnects research, innovation and development investment to deliver high quality, sustainable growth.
Further strengthening of investment in the research and innovation infrastructure and the intellectual capacity of the south east is crucial to its future. Investment should focus, first, on sectors that have the capacity for regional economic growth, particularly in the ICT, bio-pharma and advanced manufacturing areas.
However, as mentioned by previous speakers, the region must also leverage its natural resources, maximising opportunities in agriculture and tourism and planning for new associated industries such as ICT for agriculture, tourism and eco-innovation. The TSSG and the associated ArcLabs open innovation model is a blueprint for regional economic development. The model embodies the institute's stated research philosophy of driving regional economic development through our global reputation for research and innovation excellence.
A key component of the model is the co-location of entrepreneurs, business start-ups, researches and students promoting the translation of IP know-how into new products and services. At the core of the TSSG model is a traditional academic focus on international peer reviewed scientific research and postgraduate education. This is a key point. Research has to be at the highest level and it has to be internationally benchmarked but we must extend this through collaborating with industry and enterprise incorporating reference points to state-of-the-art industry and engineering challenges to drive the creation of new products and services. For instance, the TSSG has created 11 spin out companies in the south east, including FeedHenry, which recently received VEC investment of €7 million and will create an additional 100 jobs in the next year. The TSSG has also created a mobile services cluster in the region employing more than 200 engineers where no such industry existed previously. The ArcLabs entrepreneurial development programme, new frontiers, previously known as the south east enterprise platform programme, has created 84 new businesses in the past six years with a combined turnover of €29 million, of which €8.5 million is in export sales. There are 249 jobs in those companies.
We also discussed previously the industrial landscape. It is unfortunate that the south east has attracted only 8% of the overall FDI investment in Ireland. We, therefore, need to have a targeted approach to FDI investment. Multinational companies seek locations that provide access to state-of-the-art research through centres of excellence, a ready supply of highly qualified staff and access to international networks of people and ideas. WIT, through its research centres, is providing the type of research capacity and people skills required by FDI. Further development in this regard is key to the development of a technological university. The traditional IOT system is not fit for purpose in the context of where the south east needs to go and that is why there is a need for change.
The majority of indigenous industries in the south east are micro-industries. We need to encourage such industries to scale. However, in the present form they have limited capacity to take up an integrated research input directly into their businesses. We in WIT have overcome this limitation, particularly in ArcLabs, by customising the IP and know-how generated from our research in a way that is directly applicable to business where technology challenges these micro-industries. In many cases, we have worked with companies to redesign their products and services in line with new technologies and business opportunities, for instance, companies wanting to move into cloud computing. The demand for support in the SME sector is evidenced by the fact that WIT has completed more than 240 EI supported innovation voucher projects with SMEs.
The flow of highly qualified graduates and staff from the research community is an important means of enhancing industry's innovative capacity. Ongoing continuous proactive engagement between academia, enterprise support and research funding agencies and indigenous industries is essential to sustained growth. WIT and ArcLabs support the concept of a one-stop-shop for entrepreneurs and industry. The incorporation of academic researchers, entrepreneurs, high potential start ups and multimedia industries in a shared network creates the optimal innovation environment to which I referred, driving the free flow of ideas and transferring IP and know-how to new products and services. However, it is imperative that the IDA, the regional authorities, local government, industry representatives and WIT and ITC, as higher education providers, work together to ensure the physical and intellectual infrastructure of the south east attracts and sustains both indigenous and multinational industries in the region. Reference has been made to the profile of the workforce in the region.
WIT has a strong track record in supporting vocational and labour market oriented education at all levels. Addressing the needs of the unemployed is a crucial requirement for the economic development and social renewal of the region. The institute has practically led initiatives to support the reskilling and upskilling of the unemployed, such as ex-Waterford Crystal and TalkTalk employees. We need to plan ahead and upskill the workforce before a crisis emerges. We need to have an infrastructure that continually trains and develops the workforce in the workplace. One area that is important is the Springboard programme, which provides people with the opportunity to reskill and return to work. Increasingly, we see the importance of lifelong learning. The typical profile of students is changing. It is not about four years; it is about continuous education and upgrading.
The technological university for the south east will not forget its origin and its role as a driver of innovation and employment in the region but it must deliver new models bringing together education, technology, research, business and entrepreneurship to produce industry ready graduates and innovation models such as that in ArcLabs to drive the economic development of the region. WIT and ITC formally affirmed their intention to create such a university.
There is a need for the development and implementation of an integrated investment strategy for the south east capable of building an open innovation region. Such a strategy requires a great alignment of the role of the stakeholders, including Government, industry and higher education. The creation of a technological university is paramount to the development of the innovation capacity and knowledge base in the south east. WIT's research and innovation model has proven its ability to create an economic impact. We now need investment to scale this model and to continue the economic development of the region.
I thank the witnesses who have travelled from Waterford and Carlow. The common thread that has emerged from the presentations is the need for an integrated strategy from national to local level across a number of different areas. Dr. Donnelly was strong during the consultations in Waterford on the need for an integrated economic development strategy for the south east, which would examine its potential, strengths and weaknesses and so on but, in particular, its needs socially, economically and educationally and build from there. While that makes sense, it does not always happen. According to the research and facts presented by Forfás and other departmental agencies, to which Mr. Walsh, the city manager referred, the region has underperformed in educational attainment and experiences high unemployment and low entrepreneurial activity. Part of the reason for that is the lack of a joined up approach in the region and lack of integration of national and local policy. Education has not been immune to that. We hope and expect that a technological university might bring that cohesion and there will be stronger links between WIT and ITC. If we need to examine the strengths of the region, we need to have a strategy that aligns national policy with local policy and we need then to provide certainty to entrepreneurs and industrialists in order that when they look at the south east, they see that there is a plan and the infrastructure, supports, graduates and funding are in place.
The grants are in place and local authorities and enterprise agencies are aligned to what they need. There is certainty and it can be seen that these people are serious about those sectors. If we go down that road, we must be certain of the sectors. Perhaps the witnesses can offer their ideas on key growth sectors for the region and how best to support them in terms of research and development.
The speakers from Carlow IT made the point about the need for integrated plans and incorporating higher education institutions, HEIs, into regional action plans. What more can be done? Can the witnesses be more specific on what is not happening? Can they provide examples of how better to achieve integration? The point made by Mr. Shane Rooney is that we need to make sure the courses we run and the graduates we turn out are meeting the needs of industry and the community. Are there examples of shortages of skills at third level or fourth level or where skills are not aligned to the needs of industry? Can Mr. Rooney expand the point about incorporating HEIs into regional action plans?
I have a question for Mr. Rooney on apprenticeships. There has been a cultural problem in the State with regard to apprenticeships, where there is a perception problem. Employers do not see the value in apprenticeships. There have been problems in the construction industry and it may have tainted our views. Apprenticeships are much better at European level, where they are better integrated to the industry. This applies not only to manufacturing but ICT. The ICT sector has made presentations to us on how we must change our mindset on apprenticeships and encourage a lifelong learning approach, with employers being part of continuous training and education. Perhaps Mr. Rooney can give his view on this.
Another point that arose during consultation concerns people who want to do a FETAC course but cannot repeat a course at level 5 even if it is in a different area. This has presented a problem and it might help if we allowed more flexibility. Does it not make sense in a situation where people are being asked to diversify and have a need to do so when job opportunities do not exist in the sector in which they have trained? If we are to examine how we can assist people, it does not make sense to block them.
The last point concerns the technological university. Deputy Paudie Coffey and I attended a Telecommunications Software & Systems Group, TSSG, presentation to Oireachtas Members in Waterford. I was taken aback by the reach of that research and development company into global companies, including CNN and Disney, through research that has emerged from TSSG and similar work being done in Carlow IT with regard to ENVIROcore DESIGNcore and GAMEcore. I am a supporter of the technological university even though, traditionally, I was not convinced by whether we needed Trinity, UCC or UCD. We need a third level institute grounded in the needs of the south east, which is innovation and technology. Carlow IT has been very good, as has Waterford IT. What more needs to be done in respect of research and development? ITs find it difficult to get access to funding. If we get a new technological university, will it give us new opportunities to access funding for research and development?
It is interesting that all the participants we have heard from referred to integration, cohesion and a joined-up approach as being very important and something we do not have. We hope our economic strategy will have that at its core. It must be about ensuring it delivers for the regions. I thank the witnesses for their presentations and input into earlier consultations.
We will take questions from all Deputies and Senators and then open up to people who feel responsible to answer the relevant questions.
I welcome the delegations from WIT and Carlow IT. It is important to put on record our positions and the challenges we face, as well as identifying opportunities. The witnesses have outlined where opportunities exist and engagement, discussion and debate is how we can improve how we, as policymakers, respond to the challenges that face us. I visited Carlow IT before Christmas and I was very impressed by the service delivery and the courses on offer. I am a regular visitor to WIT and, like Senator Cullinane, I visited TSSG a few weeks ago. I was pleasantly amazed to witness the uplifting innovation and research that goes on and the connection between that and the potential for industry and employment. I am not just saying that as a loyal Waterford person. I knew a lot of work went on there and we are now starting to see the real benefit. FeedHenry and Betapond have announced investments by companies such as Intel, global players, and that can only continue. It must be matched by appropriate global strategy and policy to ensure it continues.
I raised concerns about regional coherence. I feel we have not been coherent as a region until now. In fairness to both colleges represented before us, it is no coincidence that the collaboration between WIT and Carlow IT has seen major strides towards the achievement of a technological university for the south east. Previously, we were divided and had differences of opinion but now the Government recognises it for the first time. That we must, and will, have a technological university for the south east was included in the programme for Government and endorsed by the Minister for Education and Skills. That does not mean serious challenges remain for Carlow and Waterford.
I am interested in hearing how to focus on the challenge, which is immediate and essential, to benefit both colleges. There is possibly duplication between existing colleges in the south east. Some negotiation and debate must occur to ensure departments are set up to meet the growth areas we have spoken about. Perhaps the witnesses have information on how to address challenges.
The witnesses referred to innovation vouchers, which are a Government initiative. Dr. Willie Donnelly mentioned 250 companies having taken advantage of the vouchers. How are the vouchers used? Is it for marketing or support in the creation of new products, or innovation within the companies? How do they use them and what does it mean in terms of job creation?
I am concerned to hear Mr. Shane Rooney refer to the lack of engagement between industry, education and policymakers and the Government. It is a concern I share but Mr. Rooney is now a main player as part of the new SOLAS body. It is a challenge for colleges, industry and policymakers to ensure we match courses with growth and demand. We are now three or four years into the recession and we have major unemployment. I am concerned that we do not have that level of engagement, although it is the fault of no one at this committee meeting. We need to identify why the engagement is not taking place.
I do not agree with all of the statements made here. I am a qualified electrician and came through the vocational apprenticeship system. One of the witnesses mentioned that trade-related skills are not happening and that we are not engaging with industry. WIT has a successful programme where former electricians upskill to engineering courses and manufacturing courses. That is working quite well and perhaps someone on the panel can give us more information.
I understand there are positive programmes that will engage craftsmen and people who were employed in the construction sector in finding new career paths and job prospects. I often meet people who are obliged to go on FÁS courses on fork lift training, etc., which may not be relevant to where the job prospects lie. We have work to do in matching the growth sectors in which there are employment prospects with unemployed people. We must try to bridge that gap. That is a huge challenge for all of us and I would be interested to hear more detail in that regard.
Senator Cullinane and others said there is huge potential in the south east region from the perspective of agrifood, life sciences and bioscience, and I understand Teagasc has a role also. How do the institutes overlap with Teagasc as education partners? What engagement do they have with it? When TalkTalk closed, for the first time in the history of the State, all State agencies, education partners and local authorities were brought together by the Minister. I find it astounding that we do not have a better model of engagement between all the stakeholders to ensure better outcomes and better policy-making. There is much room for improvement in that area.
To go back to the agrifood-related area, there is huge potential for unskilled or low-skilled construction workers to gain new skills as farm assistants. I do not mean as farm labourers but as farm assistants. Such people can move from construction-related activities, in which they might not have had a craft or a qualification, to hugely productive areas in the farming sector. There is huge potential in Harvest 2020 and all the associated services. We should look at improving the skills of former construction workers so that they can work in farming- or agriculture-related areas. That is something in which we need to engage and I would be interested to hear if there is any work going on in that area.
I briefly visited the jobs.ie website while the discussion was taking place. There are 85 jobs currently available in the Waterford area, 59 in Kilkenny, 54 in Wexford, 34 in Carlow and 82 in Tipperary. There are 314 vacancies in the south east, which are being advertised. There is a disconnect if we are not matching the skill sets with those vacancies, and that is the challenge for us. Those 314 jobs are available today. What will the number be next week, next month or next year? That is the challenge we all must face.
I will start with questions to the witnesses from the institutes of technology, who can respond if they have the figures. Do they have any figures on the employment rate of graduates from the institutes? How do they compare to other institutes around the country? Do they have any figures on employability from the courses they run?
Mr. Declan Doyle mentioned the need to match education provision with industry needs. I am a little shocked that that is what he is presenting in 2013 given that the issues we are talking about date back at least to 2008, if not before. DCU, a university of good practice, has a programme called Generation 21. It has revamped all of the modules in all of its courses and has introduced a set of soft skills that companies are seeking. I am a little concerned that has not been done in the institutes and that they are only talking about doing it now.
Mr. Shane Rooney is someone who is quite involved in labour activation measures but from listening to his presentation, it sounds to me that labour activation measures and the Pathways to Work strategy have not hit the south east yet. Perhaps he would be able to give me some figures. I know it is not directly his responsibility, but how far has the Intreo model been rolled out in the south east? How many places on the Momentum initiative, which is for the long-term unemployed, have been given to the south east? How many of them have been taken up? Are there any vacancies?
In regard to those responsible for career guidance, I assume that in many cases the local employment service takes on the job of offering career guidance, jobs skills and jobs clubs to the unemployed where there is not a local employment office or an Intreo office. These are things that people should be doing. Jobs clubs are responsible for supporting people in getting jobs while jobs centres are responsible for helping people to develop a career path. That has been formalised much more in the Pathways to Work strategy. I was a bit taken aback because it sounded as though none of this was happening in the south east. I imagine more needs to happen. I would like a response on some of those issues.
It was mentioned that there was no link between employers and education providers or labour activation providers. Whose responsibility is this? Is it not everybody's responsibility? For too long there has not been that connection with providers, whether from the education side or from the Department or those contracted on behalf of the Department - often community and voluntary agencies that do a really good job in many respects in some cities and counties. Whose responsibility is it to create that link? I assumed it was everybody's responsibility to create that link between the jobs available and the local employment service or the local Intreo office. I know I sound a little critical but I am very surprised by this. People who know me know I do not mince my words on these issues.
I would appreciate whatever information the witnesses can give me. I know none of the witnesses is responsible for the Intreo model, so I do not expect facts and figures to be completely accurate, but given that Mr. Rooney had many facts and figures, he might be able to shed some light on some of those issues. I have asked a number of questions to which the witnesses can do their best to respond. There is no need for witnesses to repeat answers. I suggest the appropriate witness answer each question.
Mr. Declan Doyle
When I spoke about harnessing our teaching and research into economic objectives, I meant as a result of whatever jobs initiative or jobs plan for the south east is generated from this report and beyond. A certain level of engagement takes place across the region and across the higher education sector, but it is not formalised. The Vice Chairman said it was everybody's responsibility but unfortunately, it is a cliché that if something is everybody's responsibility, it becomes no one's responsibly. Perhaps one of the recommendations should be that a formal process be put in place to ensure this type of regional engagement happens.
One of the positive things that has aided enormously the development of the joint submission of the two institutes was the formation of a committee chaired by the city manager, Mr. Michael Walsh. Mr. Joe Crockett and all the county managers in the region were members of this committee, together with representatives from the enterprise development agencies. That was hugely positive in drawing together the different objectives of the stakeholders and in getting that type of programme going. One might think that was something very obvious. It is obvious but it never happened before.
The task force pulled together by the Minister, Deputy Richard Bruton, following the closure of TalkTalk was mentioned. One might say that was obvious but it had not happened before. I am part of that forum. It needs to be formalised in some way to try to ensure that the HEIs have a formal method of interacting with the other stakeholders, whether economic, community or local authority-based.
The mention of the technological university in the programme for Government was extremely welcome. As I said previously, the work towards stage two and, hopefully, on to stage four and redesignation as a technological university is one of the primary objectives of IT Carlow and the management team. Without getting into the nitty-gritty of mapping academic departments and how that is done, obviously there is overlap. The institutes of technology were set up in 1970 as regional technical colleges. They all had a school of business, a school of science and a school of engineering.
There are legacy issues there that will be a challenge for the institutes to get through in terms of how centres of excellence, research funding and research strategies are developed. That is a real challenge because it does not just involve academic and regional engagement issues but also human resources and industrial relations issues, with a whole plethora of different stakeholders who need to be brought on board. Ultimately, it will happen but it is some way down the road.
On the issue of the way in which we engage with industry, we have formal industry advisory boards for each of our programmes to try to ensure that we create what are termed "shovel-ready" graduates, that is, people who are ready to enter the work force on graduation. The Carlow Institute of Technology was extremely pleased to see the report produced by IBEC recently on graduate employability which showed that IT graduates scored higher than the universities on six out of ten of the criteria under which they were surveyed.
On the question of apprenticeships, we had an extremely successful project under the strategic innovation fund. The aforementioned fund is six to eight years old. There was a joint initiative between Carlow IT and Limerick IT which developed a progression and conversion route for apprentices. One course was called a BSc in Craft Management and it allowed apprentices to develop a new, management-based skill set. Other projects allowed apprentices to look at alternative ways of building on their apprenticeship qualification. One example of this was the aforementioned course in craft management. Another, in the engineering faculty, enabled electricians to transfer into electronic engineering. That reskilling and upskilling of apprentices who have been left unemployed as a result of the construction downturn is continuing. In that context and to return to something mentioned by Mr. Rooney, the recognition of prior, experiential learning is something we have worked hard on in Carlow IT. We have taken a number of students in recent years onto our business and ICT programmes. It is a little bit trickier to do this in some of our engineering programmes because we must ensure that students who come through the programme will achieve Engineering Ireland status or the equivalent status from a relevant professional body. In some cases, if one gives exemptions for prior learning, the final qualification is not always recognised by the professional body. That is something we are working on to see if we can overcome it. Up to two years ago, if Bill Gates applied for a software engineering course at Carlow IT, he would have to start in first year. That was the reality before we brought in recognition of prior learning, RPL, and we are continuing to develop our policies in that area.
Flexibility and diversity are key in terms of the conversion programmes, particularly in ICT, business and supply-chain management. Some of these programmes were funded through Springboard and we hope that will continue. I mention supply-chain management because we spoke earlier about agri-science and agri-research and one of the areas in which Carlow IT has developed expertise is in the area of supply-chain and agri-logistics. Graduates of that course are proving to be highly employable. We are working on a memorandum of understanding with Teagasc, Waterford IT and Carlow IT in agri-ICT and agri-business generally. That would include the concept of the agricultural assistant, although I had not heard that actual term before. Without being sexist, we are looking at developing a programme for farmers' sons who went into the construction industry and who are now returning to farming to try to develop their skills to enable them to have a viable future in the agri-industry.
The notion of the technological university and the questions on the Telecommunications Software and Systems Group, TSSG, are issues to which the representatives from Waterford IT should respond. However, aligned to the notion of the technological university is the notion of the entrepreneurial university, that is, one that is outward looking and engaged with industry and that is what we are striving to achieve. That is what is different about any technological university. It is not a "me too" university. It is about engagement and innovation in the way we deliver our programmes, like developing internships for adult learners, building more live projects into our work, ensuring greater linkage between our research capability and the needs of industry and so forth. We are trying to ensure that this approach is built into the fabric of what we do and not something that simply happens on an ad-hoc basis across departments. We want it to be at the core of what we do. We want to ensure that we are engaged within the region.
The word "university" is probably more important for American multinationals coming in. Some of the companies based in the Carlow area that have their headquarters in the US are very excited about telling HQ that there is a possibility of a technological university opening in the region. In that context, it is more than a word. The word is important but it is more than that. University status enhances our prospects of becoming involved in higher-level research and producing more fourth-level graduates.
On the question of employability, the average employment rate for graduates of Carlow IT in the last five years is 91%. It peaked at 96% and the lowest point was 87%. We have 100% employment rates in the ICT and biotechnology areas but the rates are lower in other areas. Students who entered college in 2007 and 2008 on construction-related courses are still struggling to find employment in Ireland, although they are finding employment overseas.
I hope I have answered all of the questions that were posed.
Mr. Shane Rooney
The issue of applicants for FETAC 5 courses not getting the back to education allowance if they already have a FETAC 5 qualification was raised. While I am not here to speak for the Department of Social Protection, the reason for that is that in the past there were adult learners who were what is termed "going around the houses", doing course after course at FETAC 5 level with no progression up the national framework to FETAC 6 or to HETAC level in the institutes of technology and the universities. That is why that condition exists. There may be a possibility for exemptions in areas where there are employment opportunities, for example, in science, technology and ICT. However, there are many courses at FETAC 5 level for which the employment opportunities are limited or non-existent. While some courses, in community development and health care support, for example, are meeting a need in the community, other courses are not. The demand for beauty therapists, hairdressers, for example, is far lower than the number of students completing those courses and therefore, a balance needs to be struck in that area.
On the issue of apprenticeships and those who worked in construction moving on, the important point is that there is a variety of apprenticeships available that match the needs of employers. The apprenticeships must be very specific. One could do a FETAC 5 course in business studies or secretarial studies but there are no jobs in those areas in Carlow. Therefore, there is no real point in doing a FETAC 5 course in those subjects unless one intends to progress to third level. The objective is to make FETAC 5 courses and apprenticeships more specific to industry demands. Recently, for example, there was a JobBridge apprenticeship for a cheese-maker, where the apprentice will be trained up in a very specific area in which there are employment opportunities. While generic skills are important, students also need to develop more industry-specific skills in order to be employable.
Deputy John Lyons mentioned the Pathways to Work initiative. As part of our service, the local jobs club runs courses five mornings a week and we meet clients from those courses all of the time. We do our best to provide courses and opportunities for them, as well as giving them information and guidance.
Courses in generic skills, however, such as Safe Pass and first aid, will not get a person a job. If a person is in a jobs club and only has generic, construction related skills, that will not get that person long-term employment, although the jobs clubs are great for interview skills and as a start. Even just to be in a jobs club to talk to others and to network is hugely beneficial because those involved are meeting people who are working or who are not that long out of the workplace. They are back in the loop and can then look at other opportunities or education and training board courses or going to college.
We would meet those people every week. We are very involved under a new interim protocol with the Department of Education and Skills where we meet clients referred directly from the Department of Social Protection on a weekly basis. There was strong informal co-operation and integration before but it is now on a more formal footing where the IRCU, employment services and the FÁS activation manager would meet on a far more formal basis than before. We are getting referrals all the time and our services have never been busier. That knocks on from Pathways to Work and closer co-operation and integration with that.
The question was asked if we should be doing this or whether it should come from the Government. We are very aware of employment opportunities locally and we pass these on to clients. Every week our information officer would hand to clients a list of jobs from the local press. Many people are going for generic skilled jobs where a high level qualification is not needed, so it is almost impossible to get those jobs. The jobs with specific skills, such as in engineering or where computer aided design, CAD, skills are needed, require a person to have some education and FETAC level 5,6 and 7 qualifications. Just knowing about those job opportunities will not help. A person must upskill to meet the needs of those employers.
Is Carlow VEC contracted to run some of the local employment services?
Mr. Shane Rooney
No, we do not run those. There is no local employment service in Carlow. We work with the local jobs club, which involves co-operation between Carlow Development and what was formerly called FÁS. There are courses on interview skills and jobs skills and we meet every programme that runs every three weeks.
Dr. Willie Donnelly
I was intrigued by a presentation given by the President of Stanford University. He said there is as much IT generated in Kansas as in Silicon Valley and asked why all the companies are located in Silicon Valley. It is because they have an open innovation culture. This is very important. We need to build such a culture in the southern region. Our experience when I set up the TSSG was that there were no ICT industries. We had to create one but when the IDA would bring companies to Waterford, there would not be any capacity in human resource terms. For multinationals, the human resource is the critical factor. Why do ICT companies go to Dublin? It is because there is a flow of ideas and people. They need connectivity to similar companies. They do not shy away from that competition. In the south east we need to identify those areas of critical mass in order that we can create industry and plan to develop the necessary infrastructure, like in Silicon Valley. That involves people, structures and support.
The problem we have is that we talk about increasing employment in the south east but we never ask what are the areas where we could attract a critical mass. That is what we did in the TSSG. When we saw we did not have these people, we decided to create spin-out companies, where we seek out people from abroad, and we had people from 20 different countries come to work in the south east. We then moved them out into the companies. These are activities we must undertake and that is what I mean by strategic planning. There is no point in doing this on a yearly basis. We must plan on a five year basis, with an objective, and identify the resources we need. Does Enterprise Ireland match the investment from the IDA? Are both agencies seeking the same industries and promoting the same resources? Are educators developing the skills that are needed? Entrepreneurs like to be next to other entrepreneurs, so we must create a platform to entice them into the region.
The Kilkenny county manager, Mr. Joe Crockett, gave us an opportunity to take the TSSG model and recreate it in Kilkenny. We did not say that in Waterford our focus is on mobile services so we should have the same focus in Kilkenny. We asked what the natural industrial base was around Kilkenny. Agriculture was one answer, but from talking to Mr. Crockett, if we look at the opportunity for growth in agriculture in the region, we can see there are challenges in environmental impacts. I began to wonder how ICT could link to agriculture. The Republic of Ireland is at the forefront of ICT and by combining our natural resources and ICT, we could create not just a whole new industry but one that has huge export potential. This is not just about an integrated strategy, it is about having an understanding of our goals, and all the players must understand that.
In that strategy, when we talk about education, we must look not just at third level but at primary and secondary education. At secondary level, there are schools in the south east that are not offering some science subjects because of cutbacks. Those are the subjects the companies we are trying to attract want to see.
We brought in €112 million in research funding. The universities have baseline funding for research of about €240 million per year while we receive nothing. We are starting from a much lower base.
The other reason the region needs a technological university is common sense. Technology is changing rapidly. Many of the leading companies in the world such as Cisco do not look beyond three years because they cannot predict what will happen beyond that. If we are to train the next generation of graduates and engage with industry, how do we train ourselves? How much would it cost the taxpayer if we had to reskill every academic every three years in order that he would be current? We do that by research instead. Research helps if we bring it into the undergraduate programme. Not only do we train people to go into industry, but they must be upskilled every three years. Through research, we are offering people the ability to do this.
Sun Life is a good example of such upskilling, We have a masters programme where we and the company looked at its needs and then defined the programme around those needs.
The normal academic excellence is still needed, but consideration is also given to skills needs. I understand that 50 of Sun Life's staff have graduated from that programme. That is what the technological university is about. It is about responsiveness. At national level, the debate about the institutes of technology tends to focus on whether 16 or 18 hours of teaching should be provided. That is not the question. That is not how we will enable the south east to grow. The debate should be about being able to respond to needs by working with industry to define and develop the skills it needs. Perhaps Dr. Wall will speak about the skills base.
Dr. John Wall
I work with Dr. Donnelly, Dr. Wells and others in WIT. I work in the school of lifelong earning and education. I would like to pick up on what has been said by Dr. Donnelly and others. There is no doubt that the region faces challenges from the perspective of educational attainment. There are positive examples of what both institutes are trying to do at present. We hope to hear something positive from Springboard later this week.
I will give some examples of engagements we have been involved with over the past couple of years. A number of people from the construction industry are participating in our ICT skills programme. I am originally a civil engineer. I know better than most the skills one acquires in the construction industry, particularly in the whole area of project management. Those skills are needed in the software industry. A number of those who are currently taking our ICT skills courses come from a background in architecture or construction. Last year, we were successful with a number of programmes in the whole Springboard domain. I refer, for example, to the postgraduate diplomas in innovative technology engineering and in lean practice. This links back to the discussion we had earlier about building the capacity for advanced manufacturing in the south east. When I give feedback to groups like this committee, I emphasise that we engage in "mark to market" practices in terms of the numbers we might get on these programmes. If we are to leverage them, we need to be above the market. We need to build them up over a period of three to five years so we can deliver for the region. That would be one of the recommendations I would make in this regard.
I wish to return to what Dr. Donnelly said about engagement. We have argued for some time that a transformation in the way we deliver the curriculum will have to be one of the key features of the technological university. It should not always be about people coming into the classroom. We should use technology to engage remotely with them. We should make provision for our students to go out on internships and solve real-world problems. We are working to ensure this is one of the key features of the technological university. I hope I have given the committee an idea of what I consider to be positive initiatives that can further leverage both institutes in assisting the region and improving its educational attainment.
Mr. Brian Ogilvie
We sometimes forget that the technological university will be a completely different organisation. It will be a new organisation. There will be no such thing as the Institute of Technology, Carlow or Waterford Institute of Technology - there will be a single integrated institute. That addresses the problem regarding the overlap in courses.
The Chairman also asked how companies use innovation vouchers. This is one of the challenges we face in the research area. It is no coincidence that the majority of companies that engage with Science Foundation Ireland are huge multinational organisations with their own research laboratories. They are able to take research output in the rawest form and integrate it into their products. If one is running a company with four or five employees, one will not have the luxury of being able to allocate one of those people to engage at the research level. We transfer the highly specialist knowledge we have created through our research and innovation to companies by means of product development, for example. The document we furnished to the joint committee mentions a local indigenous company, EirGen Pharma, which operates in the area of biopharmaceutics. It is working with the Pharmaceutical and Molecular Biotechnology Research Centre, which is our biopharmaceutics research group, on an innovation voucher. The centre isolated and identified three impurities in a tablet product that was being developed by EirGen. The project allowed EirGen to file the product with the European Medicines Agency and it was approved in 2010.
This example gives us a clear view of how deeply the main research can be translated into something a company can use. This helps the development of the company. We do that over and over again. I believe this demonstrates the difference between a technological university and a traditional university. A traditional university is like a thoroughbred. Its focus is on its independence. Our focus will be on our responsiveness as a technological university. We will take the results of our research and customise it to the needs of companies. We will engage with them on a continual basis to ensure we understand their needs. I think I have answered all the questions.
Okay. We have gone over time. This meeting is becoming something of a road trip. I thank the members of the delegation for their attendance. Senator Cullinane will include the issues they have raised in his report on the south east. I wish the witnesses a safe trip back to the south east. We will suspend the meeting briefly while we wait for the members of the next delegation to take their seats.
Sitting suspended at 5.05 p.m. and resumed at 5.10 p.m.