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Joint Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation debate -
Tuesday, 12 Nov 2013

Progress Update: Discussion with Microfinance Ireland

I welcome our guests, Ms Adrienne Murray, CEO, Ms Geraldine Kelly, chairperson, and Mr. Pat Kilbane, head of finance and risk, of Microfinance Ireland. They are here to discuss the progress made since its establishment and related issues. They are very welcome. I thank them for coming in today. This meeting was organised at short notice because of committee changes and I appreciate them making themselves available.

I wish to advise the witnesses that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Ms Murray to make her presentation on the progress made since the establishment of Microfinance Ireland and related issues.

Ms Adrienne Murray

Thank you Chairman. We welcome the opportunity to give the committee an overview summary of Microfinance Ireland and our first year in business. We look forward to members questions, suggestions and inputs on how we can build on our progress into the future.

Microfinance Ireland, MFI, is a not-for-profit organisation established to provide loans of between €2,000 and less than €25,000 to microenterprises. Microenterprises are defined as businesses that employ fewer than ten people and which have an annual turnover of less than €2 million. We were set up to manage the microenterprise loan fund scheme, a Government initiative that forms part of the action plan for jobs. We do this on behalf of the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation.

This scheme aims to address some of the difficulties being faced by microenterprises in accessing credit. Our role is to provide loans to these businesses if they can show they are commercially viable but they cannot meet standard bank lending criteria. MFI was set up to provide an alternative to, but not a substitute for, bank lending for these businesses. We can only lend to a borrower if he or she has had difficulty in getting credit from a bank. I would stress that MFI, like its peer organisations in other countries, is not a panacea for the problems being faced by microenterprises. It can only be a small part of a wider solution to assist small businesses with the maintenance and creation of jobs at local community level.

We are a small and lean organisation. We had six staff in April of this year and we now have eight full-time staff. We are a subsidiary of the Social Finance Foundation, which was set up in 2007 by the then Minister for Finance to act as a wholesale supplier of finance for social purposes. We have a voluntary board with broad business experience. Our board members are highly committed to developing an overall strategy for the business that is adequate and fit for purpose for a company of its size while maintaining the flexibility to adapt to market changes and forces in a commercially viable manner. In addition, the board is fully committed to ensuring appropriate governance and regulatory compliance. Board members also engage and are generous with their time in helping to promote the scheme at appropriate events throughout the country.

When MFI was set up, the prevailing level of loan applications being declined by banks, coupled with a perception that banks were reluctant to lend, resulted in a preliminary assessment that MFI could lend up to €40 million over a five year period, supporting up to 2,700 microenterprises and up to 3,800 jobs. It was envisaged the county and city enterprise boards, CEBs, would be the main channel partner for pipeline applications to MFI. It was also envisaged the CEBs would provide essential enterprise training and pre and post mentoring support and assistance with loan application preparation across all sector activities. Immediately pre and post launch of MFI, there was intensive engagement and information sharing of the MFI-CEB partnership objectives with the CEB network. That engagement and relationship building with the CEBs is ongoing.

With regard to our experience since inception, we opened for business on 1 October 2012, with a lead-in time of just six weeks from the time of the company being incorporated to set up and open for business. We received our first loan application in mid-October 2012, approved the first loan in mid-November and the first loan drawdown took place in December 2012. Demand has been significantly lower than originally anticipated.

In regard to progress in our first year, we opened for business on 1 October 2012. I will summarise the progress we have made in our first year. I am pleased to say that, in the year to 30 September 2013: we approved €1.62 million in lending; we supported over 100 microenterprises; we supported 237 jobs, of which 118 are new jobs; we approved 45% of applications, broadly in line with the approval range we anticipated and consistent with the experience of peer organisations in other countries; and we have processed 239 loan applications, with an average turnaround time of ten days.

I will give members some idea of the nature of our work. Our average loan size in our first year was €15,000, in line with what we anticipated. Some 81% of our approvals were to businesses employing three people or fewer and over 60% of our approvals were to start-ups, companies or businesses that were in business for less than 18 months before we lent to them. Over 60% of our loan applications were received via county or city enterprise boards and 38% of applications applied directly to MFI. We have achieved wide geographic coverage, with 22% of our applicants being from Dublin and 78% from the rest of Ireland.

With regard to the profile of MFI borrowers, some 33% of our loan approvals have been to retail or wholesale traders. Manufacturing businesses account for 11% of approvals. Financial services or insurance related businesses account for another 11% and construction businesses also account for 11%. Some 8% of approvals have involved arts, entertainment or recreational businesses. Some 7% have been to businesses involved in providing accommodation or food and we classify the remaining 19% as being granted to a range of other services. As is to be expected in this higher risk lending area, we must work with customers in difficulty. Therefore, our loan portfolio already includes a small number of businesses which have experienced early set back and challenges with their ventures. We are committed to working with them as they endeavour to get their businesses back on track.

On the question of the demand for MFI loans, I hope the numbers I have provided give members some idea of the work we have been doing, although they are not the full story. It is important to highlight that our lending activity is demand driven. No matter how much we might wish to lend, we can only lend if we get applications. We make no secret of our view that we would like to see more applications. In our first year in business, we did not receive as many as we thought we would, and certainly not as many as we would like. We need to generate more applications. We encourage microentrepreneurs to get in touch with us and we encourage anyone who can direct microentrepreneurs towards us to do so. This includes public representatives. I would urge any or all members who have constituents, for example, or contacts who have had difficulty accessing credit to contact us directly or via a county or city enterprise Board. Including details of MFI on members' websites and newsletters or linking in with us to highlight MFI customer success stories in members' relevant constituency events would be extremely helpful to us in promoting the loan fund. We will give everyone a fair hearing.

It is not realistic to suggest we can approve 100% of the applications we receive. After all, 100% of our applicants have already been unsuccessful in getting bank finance and, as we have been entrusted with taxpayers’ money, we can only lend to commercially viable borrowers who we feel will be able to repay the loan. However, we have been and will be a vital source of finance for those businesses we can help.

There are currently around 250 people who are employed in microenterprises that we have supported; if we had not lent to these businesses, it is difficult to see where they would have been able to borrow the money they needed. We are proud of our success stories, but we would like to hear more of them.

A key focus for me and my team has been to build awareness among potential borrowers. We have taken a number of actions on this front. We target events tailored for the microenterprise community, using the expertise of our staff and board members to speak at these events and encourage borrowers to apply. We engage closely with key SME banks so that they will refer unsuccessful loan applicants to us. We also link in with these banks to co-fund propositions that they have partially approved. We have built strong relationships with business representative bodies to heighten awareness of MFI and put their members in contact with us if they need credit and can satisfy our criteria. We engage in targeted, highly selective marketing and promotional activity, taking account of our limited budget, the relatively small size of our organisation and our obligation to invest taxpayer’s money as efficiently and effectively as possible.

An example of our marketing activity is a recent successful national radio advertising campaign. This ran over a three-week period last month and resulted in notable increases in the volume of weekly applications. It was a substantial investment but it delivers results. We recently re-launched the MFI website and have received very positive feedback about the application process now being clearly outlined; a step-by-step guide with helpful templates to assist applicants, frequently asked questions and samples of customers and their businesses that have benefitted from microfinance loans.

Another key focus is to make it as easy as possible for microenterprises to apply for loans, and if successful, to draw down the money. We deal with applications thoroughly but efficiently. We aim for an average ten-day turnaround time and we have achieved this. We respond to borrower feedback. We reduced the interest rate we charge on loans - our current interest rate is 8.8% APR fixed - to stimulate more demand. This rate represents fair value in light of our cost of funds, the higher-risk nature of our lending and the rates charged for similar facilities by banks. It also provides certainty to the borrower that both the rate and their loan repayments are fixed throughout the term of the loan. We introduced a direct application channel. When we opened for business, we originally only accepted loan applications through county and city enterprise boards. This requirement was seen as too restrictive by borrowers and we removed it to good effect. This has had a significant effect on application volumes, with direct applications now accounting for 38% of all applications.

We also simplified procedures and introduced borrower-friendly measures such as more straightforward requirements for supporting documentation - applications are accepted on a self-certification basis following informal or verbal declines from banks – making it faster and easier for microenterprises to apply to MFI for loans. Borrowers have responded positively to these measures.

As previously stated, ultimately the scheme will be demand led. Economic factors including changes in market dynamics and conditions will continue to be monitored and assessed in relation to the overall appetite and appropriateness for lending from Microfinance Ireland. These include consumer demand for credit, particularly at local level, for goods and services that form the backbone of microenterprise activity and growth; improving employment conditions, which would present greater stability for people compared to the risk of business failure and further debt issues; the current legacy of both personal and business over-indebtedness, which can discourage people from taking on more debt to fund businesses and can lead to a focus on paying down debt and stabilising existing businesses instead of expanding.

I would like to turn to the subject of costs. In pricing our loans, we have to balance offering a competitive rate to borrowers with getting an appropriate contribution to running the scheme. We cannot charge too much, which would unduly burden our borrowers, and we cannot charge too little, which would ultimately cost the taxpayers whose money we put at risk every time we back a business. It is a difficult balance and a challenge which begins with keeping our costs as low as possible. We are acutely conscious that any costs we incur will ultimately be borne by the taxpayer. There are certain costs that we cannot avoid; we need the right skills to run the organisation competently. Our annual salary costs were capped by the Government at €500,000 and we adhere rigorously to this.

We need to spend money on marketing – just like the businesses we support – to generate awareness and fulfil our mandate to lend to quality businesses who cannot borrow elsewhere. We spent €120,000 on marketing in our first year and we do all we can to make sure every cent counts. We also incurred once-off start-up costs of €278,000 when the organisation was set up. While substantial in the context of the amount we lent in our first year, these costs will not be repeated and they were only sanctioned because they were necessary to set up the business.

Looking to our future strategy, MFI is conscious that its progress will be subject to a formal review by the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation in late 2014, after two years in business. In advance of this review, MFI plans to undertake the following initiatives with a view to ensuring the microenterprise loan fund scheme continues to serve viable microenterprises and support both existing and new jobs in the economy. MFI will continue to build awareness of the scheme and continue to monitor customer feedback to make it easier for prospective borrowers to apply. We will seek to add other suitable partners to refer potential applicants. We will continue to engage with CEBs, banks and the Credit Review Office. We will extend our referral partners to include local enterprise offices in each local authority area; these provide the essential business soft supports including training, "pre" and "post" mentoring to our target audience, which is essential to the robustness of the microenterprise loan fund scheme business model.

We are currently undertaking a pilot scheme for loans up to €5,000 that offers borrowers the benefit of a simplified application process. This pilot is being undertaken in conjunction with two local development companies and is targeted at people on back to work schemes. This pilot will be evaluated over the coming months with a view to rolling out nationwide in 2014, if it is successful. We will focus on success stories of existing customers on our website, at relevant events and suitable media opportunities to demonstrate how the scheme has helped various businesses; from the self-employed local mechanic, to the food producer who has secured a supermarket chain contract, to the business that involves both young and not so young family members, harnessing both experience and new skills to rejuvenate a family hotel, to farm diversification enterprises, to lending to both on-line and specialist and niche retailer businesses, to launching a community-based sports business activity and helping more innovative young companies that are involved in new technologies and new areas of manufacturing. These are also being grant aided by CEBs and Enterprise Ireland. After 12 months in business, we now have a portfolio of great success stories and a mix of customers who will assist us in championing how a loan from Microfinance Ireland may be able to assist further businesses.

In conclusion, we are fully committed to achieving the original business objectives around the potential number of jobs being supported through the provision of microfinance loans. Like any new business, it takes time to launch, establish the model that is the right market fit and over time embed the model by adapting to ongoing market changes and customer feedback. We firmly believe that we are on the right track and confident of building on the success to date and ultimately delivering on the critical objectives of job creation in local communities.

I hope that this summary I have provided gives you a better understanding of MFI, the work we do, the borrowers we help and the way we seek to fulfil the role the Oireachtas has entrusted to us. Chairman and committee members, please allow me once again to thank you for your invitation to appear before the committee. We will do our best to answer any questions you may have.

Thank you very much for that detailed presentation. It is very informative and useful to members. It is timely that we have you before the committee to go through this after the first year of operation. A number of members are indicating, so I will call on Deputy Calleary first.

I welcome the delegation from MFI. I acknowledge the Chairman's efforts to contact me over the weekend to give me time to discuss some of my concerns about the scheme. Ms Murray said that MFI is not a panacea, which I accept, but unfortunately MFI is being presented as the panacea for the inability of even good companies with solid business plans to get credit, which is a serious problem for small businesses. They would love to have even the promise of a ten-day turnaround when it is taking five, six or seven weeks to get an appointment at some of banks. I am glad the director drew a line under that today.

When MFI was established the idea was that it would be responsible for investment of €40 million in small business over five years. It is well short of that, at €1.62 million. Where is the original target now? Does MFI expect to engage in €40 million worth of investment over the course of the next five years? As it prepares for the review, where is the target?

I believe I saw MFI at the National Ploughing Championships. How have the applications fed through into the October figures? What were the weekly applications and the weekly turnaround in October? The last figure we have here is up to the end of September. There were 149 applications in the launch phase from October to March, which collapsed to 75. Was the PR not good enough? Did people just not understand it? Surely at that stage alarm bells must have started to ring about the effectiveness of the marketing.

Ms Murray mentioned one of the case studies being a community-based activity. Is MFI funding community-based companies as well? I am really interested in the scheme under which people on back-to-work schemes to borrow up to €5,000. Can Ms Murray give us some detail or send us some detail about that? What kind of relationship does MFI have with the Revenue Commissioners, which have the best database for business in the country? I suggested to the Minister of State at the Department for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Perry, that an information sheet could be sent out with VAT requests or any kind of correspondence with the Revenue Commissioners on the part of MFI and the credit guarantee scheme, because there are many schemes. Has MFI engaged with the Revenue Commissioners to work with them to promote its services?

Ms Adrienne Murray

We are deeply committed to achieving the original objective of €40 million over five years. Demand has been lower than anticipated. We are a new model and business. As we went along we considered how to refine the model and we have listened to customer feedback. We will continue to do so. We feel that the opportunity exists for small businesses that need to connect with us. By finding that connection in terms of process and reaching out further to LDCs and other business referral partners we can educate small businesses and make them aware of the different channels through which they can come to Microfinance Ireland.

Is Ms Murray still confident that MFI will lend €38 million in four years? MFI has an interesting range of products. Does it have targets per product?

Ms Adrienne Murray

We have gained some very valuable insights after our first year in business. The CEBs are the main referral partner. We have already deviated and grown from that. We are considering different target audiences in terms of age cohort, social and sector demographics. For next year we have already considered plans to access different channels and sector profiles for potential clients.

Mr. Pat Kilbane

We are as focused on the jobs target as we are on the volume-of-lending target. The jobs target is 3,800 and the lending target is €40 million. We need to keep both in sight. It may be that the mix will be different. We may manage to generate more jobs with slightly lower volume support in lending because the range of products we are considering is slightly different from the original suite and may generate jobs at a lower level of loans per job.

MFI hopes to generate 3,800 new jobs.

Mr. Pat Kilbane

The target is 3,800 jobs, sustained or new - jobs that are at risk if they are not supported.

MFI has generated 237 jobs in the first year.

Mr. Pat Kilbane

Correct.

Ms Adrienne Murray

In response to the Deputy’s other questions, on the weekly levels of activity since our third quarter report, we ran a national advertising campaign. We recommenced being present at events from the National Ploughing Championships to a range of other events around the country, including Roscommon Business Network International, Fingal Enterprise Week, Momentum Business Launchpad, the National Franchise Expo, Westmeath CEB Access to Finance, Portlaoise National Women’s Enterprise Day, Your Business Day, Kildare Access to Finance, the One Stop Shop for Business with all Government Departments and North Dublin Chamber Expo. Upcoming events for November and December include the Midlands Thinktank, Meath West SME Event, Meath Access to Finance, LCD Enterprise Officers in Mallow, Carlow Senior Entrepreneurs Conference and the Cork Enterprise European Network. We are adding to those events daily. We will be represented at those events with either a stand, a speaking opportunity or panel discussion or, what is more effective, on a credit clinic basis, meeting potential MFI applicants one-to-one. That gives the Deputy a flavour of our campaign.

Having looked back at the spend on advertising, particularly national advertising, since the launch we are in no doubt that there is a correlation between that and the applications we see, perhaps after a two- or three-week lag. There were five applications in each of the first two weeks of October, then eight, six, and last week 13. That 13 is a peak that is consistent with advertising campaigns.

We are considering a small amount of money for the community-based schemes, the LDCs and small loan applications that can help to sustain or create one job. These people are on the back-to-work allowance. They may be long-term unemployed and in the semi-skilled area. A small loan of up to €5,000 may be enough to support them. It is early days. We have received ten applications and have approved nine of those. The early insights are very positive. Mentoring is vital for these people. That includes training and pre- and post-mentoring. LDCs are sponsored by the Department of Social Protection and the two with which we are running a pilot will make representations on the pilot’s findings to the Department. Everyone acknowledges and recognises that for any small business, and even more so for people who are long-term unemployed, as well as youth entrepreneurs, mentoring and training are essential to sustain the businesses long-term.

In response to the question about heightening awareness through the Revenue Commissioners in the past couple of weeks, we have distributed more than 10,000 brochures at different events. We have links with the Department of Social Protection under which MFI leaflets are placed in their offices. We have also made contact with the Money Advice and Budgeting Service offices and we will take on board the Deputy’s excellent suggestion of linking in with the Revenue Commissioners, who may be able to do a mail shot of our leaflet.

Ms Geraldine Kelly

In respect of microfinance availability, the Deputy mentioned that MFI is not a panacea. There is no one solution to unemployment, as this committee is aware. Our target is small businesses in local communities. Typically they depend on local demand. They are small business offering services or items such as food products.

These are innovative and different ideas but they are targeting people living in those local communities and looking at the local market demand. The overall economic situation has a large impact on the people we support and for whom we provide a service. We all need to be aware of this point. Second, the people we deal with who have set up these businesses are the heroes because they are taking the risk. They have made a personal commitment of their time and they are very focused on making a success of that business.

The committee members will be aware that Microfinance Ireland is one small piece of the jigsaw of access to finance. We are a very important piece of the jigsaw if a business cannot get that €5,000 or €10,000 anywhere else but we are only one of the pieces. As Ms Murray said, access to mentoring, training and advice is equally if not more important. We look to the success of Microfinance Ireland as being linked to the success of the overall ecosystem - to use that term - available for micro-enterprises. The 250 jobs we have supported today, in our view would not be there without access to finance because that was the critical item at that particular point. Those businesses we have supported and the other businesses which we will support need continual additional support such as training or mentoring, from either their own local mentors or advisers - sometimes local accountants with whom they have good relationships - or from the local development centres or the local enterprise offices. It is important to emphasise that this will be successful if we work closely with other partners all around the country.

I welcome the group representatives to the meeting. Along with my party, I supported the establishment of Microfinance Ireland for good reasons because the Minister had set some very ambitious targets. The ten-year strategy includes a target of €90 million, an additional lending to 5,500 micro-enterprises and the creation of 7,700 jobs. I would love to believe that we will reach the targets. The group and Ms Murray have talked about reaching those targets and she is satisfied that they will be met. However, I have concerns because of the success rate to date. I will put this in context by providing some figures which were supplied to me by means of replies to parliamentary questions submitted to the Minister. The annual administration costs for MFI for the year ended 2013 are forecast to total approximately €900,000 with an additional €278,000 start-up. That amounts to €1.1 million over this year. Over the same period, MFI will have loaned out €1.62 million across 170 enterprises, with an average loan value of approximately €15,000 and an approval rate of 45%. Over the first three quarters of the year, the number of applications has fallen from 149 in the first quarter to 71 in the third quarter. This is a concern. A total of 33% of applications are in the retail and wholesale sector. Of the total of 295 applications which have been submitted to date, 64 applications were from Dublin, 25 from Cork, eight from my own city and county of Waterford and three from Kilkenny. I will give other examples later of other counties from where there has been a small number of applications but none approved.

MFI offers loans for three or more years at 8.8% fixed rate for all types of business needs, including working capital and financing of business equipment. These loans are offered to people who have been refused credit by the banks. There is no doubt that we need some sort of scheme to provide micro-enterprise loans but I agree with the previous speaker that it cannot be regarded as a panacea nor can it be an add-on to bank lending or a substitute for a lack of bank lending which is still a problem in this State. I wonder whether the targets set out by the Minister are over-hyped and over-ambitious, given the current position of the scheme. I ask the witnesses to explain the geographic spread and I will give examples. Six applications were made from Leitrim but none was approved; four applications from Donegal but none approved; eight applications from Waterford with three approved. In the big city of Dublin, 27 of 64 applications were approved. I acknowledge the scheme is at an early stage but these are very low figures and there has been a very low take-up in some counties. I ask why is this the case. How will the group seek to increase the take-up? I note the witnesses have challenged us public representatives to take some responsibility but we are limited in our scope. I ask the group how it intends to encourage more people to make applications and hopefully the targets will be reached. I do not see us reaching the targets. How will the new relationship with the local enterprise offices improve the situation? What targets have been set for next year and are they realistic? I am sure we will be asking the group to come back here next year and we hope that whatever targets are set will be met. What is the view of the group on how to reduce the cost of loans for business? One of the concerns raised with me by people who are in business and by chambers of commerce and other groups is that the loan rate of 8.8% is still very high and it can be a problem. The group talked about customer feedback. How is that feedback received because this will provide information about why some view the scheme as not being as generous as it should be and why the take-up is not satisfactory? What is the customer feedback information?

We need to consider new ideas and practices in other countries. One of the criticisms expressed to me is that the scheme is very rigid and traditional in its bureaucracy and application process. Peer lending is done in other countries and I ask if those models can be considered. I will explain the concept of peer lending which is where five or six micro-enterprises come together.

Ms Adrienne Murray

I am familiar with that concept.

That seems to be working in other countries so why are we not using these newer models instead of sticking with more traditional types of lending?

Ms Adrienne Murray

I will answer some of the Senator's questions. On the question of the geographic spread of applications we have applications from every county in Ireland at this point. There is still one county from which, unfortunately, we have not as yet approved a loan. Some applications are more robust and more well prepared. The assistance of their CEBs is obvious. We see a noticeable difference when assistance is provided by CEBs to applicants in the preparation of business plans and cash-flow projections, when that mentoring assistance is in place. As regards the spread of applications among sectors, that is a result of the demand in the market place and there are a lot of retailers and food producers. We are trying to get a pure geographic spread reflected in the number of applications. We are a very young business and we are trying to shape the model and the process as we go along. We are fine-tuning the application process. In recent weeks we had a meeting with the Minister and with the SME banks in attendance. The Minister asked us to bring along a concrete proposal on how the banks could help microfinance further. We firmly believe that there is an opportunity to get to the heart of the reasons applications are declined by the banks. Instead of going through another process with MFI we propose that the banks would refer those applications they have declined to MFI with the consent of the applicants. We are proposing a small pilot scheme of this process over the coming months and we are hopeful that we will see good results.

That still does not explain why some counties have a much smaller take-up. There must be some reason for that.

Ms Adrienne Murray

Yes, we have looked into the reasons for that. In the Border counties, for instance, there has been a microenterprise fund in place for some years which allows applicants to borrow up to €25,000. In the west there is a similar type of fund, also with a funding limit of €25,000, which I understand is called the creative development fund. That is to say, there are already other means of accessing finance. In many cases, however, businesses are reluctant to borrow, their main concern being to pay down debt. We have been promoting ourselves as mainly providing working capital to microenterprises.

Standard bank lending rates for overdraft or working capital loans range from 7.5% up to 8.7%. We are not in competition with banks on the lending rate. We charge a fair rate for the type of finance we are providing to microenterprises. It is higher-risk lending and we are not overburdening the borrower with that. We will continue to monitor our interest rates on an ongoing basis. The margin we earn on the interest will go towards our ongoing operational costs and will enable us in the future to refresh the loan fund and lend to more enterprises.

In terms of the overall picture, our plan is quite ambitious. In terms of next year, we are hopeful of rolling out the two pilots to which I referred and reaching out to more business referrers in order to increase the number of applications. We will have an incremental build-up of marketing activity both at a national level and more locally. We have one person deployed on a full-time basis who is participating in enterprise-related activities throughout the country.

Do the delegates have a target for next year in terms of how much money they hope to lend and the number of jobs they hope to create? It is easy to have five and ten-year targets, but is there a specific target for 2014?

Ms Adrienne Murray

We hope next year to be able to double the number of jobs we created in 2013. That would amount to in excess of 500 jobs, with lending involving a combination of different loan initiatives, including both small loans and the average loan of €15,000. If there is funding remaining, we would like to consider some youth related initiative. I understand the county enterprise boards have submitted proposals to the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation and the Department of Social Protection regarding entrepreneurial initiatives for under-25s. We would be very happy to work with the CEBs as the designated lender to a youth entrepreneurship fund. We are looking at those possibilities and anticipating that we will be able to lend to different cohorts of target audiences and, in so doing, exceed the number of jobs we have created this year.

Mr. Pat Kilbane

We are also promoting Microfinance Ireland as a direct lender. While our efforts in concert with the county enterprise boards and local enterprise offices have been quite successful, we realise that our business must adopt a strategy that allows us to operate via more than one channel. We are already complementing our engagement with the CEBs with more direct engagement efforts. In fact, almost 40% of our applications are coming in directly to us.

As part of this strategy, we have revamped our website to make it more of a resource centre for loan applicants. We have, for example, added a great deal of online help to assist clients in preparing applications. An enormous amount of work has been done in that space. We are conscious, at the same time, that even with those two strands working better, we still need additional avenues to support job creation. That is where the other initiatives come in. Clearly, with eight people driving that amount of change, it is a considerable stretch. In fact, it is fair to say that it will be very tough and stretching on the business to achieve the volume of work we need to achieve.

What level of information is coming back to Microfinance Ireland from its customers?

Ms Adrienne Murray

We have not yet spent money on formal customer feedback, but it is part of our plans. For now, we take feedback from the ground up, by way of customer telephone calls, our participation at different events and so on. We proactively ask customers where they heard about us and how they are finding the process. The website now contains a section on frequently asked questions. It took a significant effort during the summer months to ensure we have a user-friendly and customer-focused website. On an ongoing basis, we take careful note of the soundbites in terms of what customers are saying about the process.

Returning briefly to the question of lending rates, if I may, we have found that when customers apply to Microfinance Ireland, their main requirement and priority is access to credit. The rate is not a deterrent or even a determining factor. For our customers, it is all about obtaining that vital small loan which will sustain their business through a difficult period. As I said earlier, we are not in competition with the banks and are not a substitute for the banks. For us, the objective is to provide a relatively modest amount to sustain a business and its associated jobs. Ultimately, when the banks are functioning again, they will be able to take over the business in the longer term.

Mr. Pat Kilbane

In regard to the expenditure of €900,000 this year, it is important to note that in order to run the type of organisation we are running, involving the provision of huge numbers of loans to small clients, it requires a certain core infrastructure to be in place. The cost of infrastructure is of the order of some €700,000, without any marketing whatsoever. In terms of building volume off that infrastructure, the objective has to be to make more volume go through our business. The core cost effectively cannot be cut below those levels. As we begin to process more applications, that cost will not rise proportionately, but there is a certain minimum amount the Government has agreed to invest in the project in terms of the infrastructure to be put in place.

The €278,000 figure relates to once-off expenditure in 2012. In advance of the fund being established, there was an enormous amount of legal work, systems work and credit work to be done. All of that was completed in advance of the business being launched. It was a once-off cost and will not recur.

The key measure of value for us as a business relates to the question of how much it costs to support job creation. Our long-term target, which we disclosed in our accounts last year, is a cost of €2,500 to support a single job. As we indicated in a reply to a recent parliamentary question, the figure we are currently achieving is €3,600. We acknowledge that we have work to do to drive down that cost to the long-term average of €2,500. We are intent on doing so, by gaining more traction with the public and connecting more with businesses that are suffering. That is the core of our business - seeking to connect to the demand. We are asking all our partners, including this committee, to help us in that direction.

Ms Geraldine Kelly

There are approximately 200,000 micro-businesses with fewer then ten employees driving this country's economy and between them employing approximately 600,000 people. To reiterate the point made by my colleagues, we absolutely do not see ourselves as in any way a substitute for the banks. We are very targeted at a particular segment and a particular type of business at a particular point in time. Some 60% of the businesses we have supported are in operation less than a year and a half; we are very much dealing with early stage start-up businesses. As they move forward successfully, they become part of the overall economy. That is the context and background against which we would frame discussion of the targets and aspirations we have set ourselves in the future.

I welcome the delegates. I was a strong supporter of Microfinance Ireland on its establishment. While acknowledging that it could not be a panacea, I saw great hope for young entrepreneurs in this country arising out of its activities. I am disappointed, however, with what the delegates have reported today, particularly their indication that they have not yet been actively involved in engaging with young people. Reference was made to that the age cohort in response to a question from Deputy Dara Calleary.

There is nothing in our guests' report about the age profile of the people for whom their organisation is providing support. I am disappointed by this. When the Minister brought the legislation through the Houses, I indicated my view that there should be a target in respect of young people obtaining access to support. I do not know whether the fault in this regard lies with young people or Microfinance Ireland in the context of actively encouraging them to put themselves forward. I hope Microfinance Ireland will be much more proactive in this regard in the future.

Ms Murray has stated Microfinance Ireland is not in competition with the banks. Many members have referred to the fact that the banks are not lending to small businesses. There are numerous instances in which this has proved to be the case. The reality is, therefore, that Microfinance Ireland is providing an option for those who know they will not be able to obtain loans from their banks. Is Microfinance Ireland actively involved with the banks? In other words, are there brochures available in the branches of the various banks which detail what it has to offer? The problem with the banks is that in recent years they have lost many staff who were able to gauge - from a financial perspective - whether people would be able to repay their loans. We must oblige the banks to make decisions more quickly in order that young people and others who are seeking loans and whose applications are rejected might approach Microfinance Ireland. Matters are not progressing as quickly as I would like because the banks are taking too long to decide whether particular businesses are going to be viable. Microfinance Ireland should link in more with the banks on this matter.

What can be done to improve the level of take-up? I am aware that Microfinance Ireland is running an active media campaign. In recent days a person asked me how one might obtain the necessary information if one did not listen to the radio or read the newspapers. There must be other ways - perhaps via post offices or whatever else - by which Microfinance Ireland can get its message across.

I hope there will be a good level of take-up of the Government's new home improvement scheme, particularly as there are many people who want to get back to work. Will Microfinance Ireland be coming on board in respect of this scheme in order to assist those who want to return to work? The vast majority of those who are unemployed previously worked in the construction sector. It is important that this fact is taken into account.

I do not have a difficulty with the interest rate, particularly as Microfinance Ireland is operating in a higher risk category. What is on offer is as competitive as most bank overdraft facilities. However, I have a problem when it comes to bank charges. Perhaps representatives from the Irish Banking Federation might be invited to come before the committee in order that members will have the opportunity to castigate them for what is happening, particularly in the case of small businesses.

I reiterate that Microfinance Ireland must be more proactive in the context of the approximately 58,000 people under the age of 24 years who are unemployed.

Ms Adrienne Murray

On young entrepreneurs, our quarter three report shows that we have approved loans for five people under the age of 30 years. This is a huge problem about which we are all concerned. As stated and in the context of youth staff and youth initiatives, we are linking with the city and county enterprise boards which have submitted a proposal to the Government on initiating a youth entrepreneur training programme. Microfinance Ireland contributed to the proposal to which I refer in that it would be the designated lender if the programme in question was put in place. We are asking the Minister to agree that there would be no necessity for the young people involved to go to the banks and that they would come directly to us. We are actively considering opportunities of this nature. It is absolutely imperative that young people and young entrepreneurs have access to training and mentoring which must go hand in glove with access to grant funding. We take on board the fact that this is very much a priority.

In terms of proactively working with the banks, I must acknowledge that they have been supportive in promoting what we have to offer. To provide some indication of the activities in which they have been involved, references to Microfinance Ireland can be found in AIB's and Bank of Ireland's decline letters in respect of applications for loans and working capital. They have been mentioning the organisation in letters they have issued on declined loan applications since the outset. We engaged with them in order to have the reference included in their overdraft letters also. As I stated, it is mainly working capital that we are funding, which is very important. We deal with the banks on an individual basis and some of them have made our brochures available in their branches. They also issue them with decline letters. They have also included a reference to Microfinance Ireland and the loan fund scheme and how people may apply under the scheme in their own SME newsletters. We are working with the banks. Not only are we actively engaging with their strategy people, we have also briefed the wider lending teams, appeals teams and front-line business development people on how they can refer declined customers to Microfinance Ireland. We are hoping to run a small pilot project in the coming weeks, the purpose of which will be to examine the point of source position with regard to what happens when banks decline or partially decline applications. Instead of being obliged to undergo a separate application process, we would like the banks to be in a position to immediately pass on - with their consent - customers' information directly to Microfinance Ireland. It is important to state we are seeking the same information and that our form is based on the model used by the banks. When applying for any form of loan or grant funding, the supporting documentation, business plan, accounts information, etc., are all relevant. As a result, there is no duplication on our part in asking customers for more information.

On the new home improvement scheme, we recognise the impact there has been on the construction industry. We see opportunities in this regard in people using our small loans to purchase essential equipment, new vans or whatever else. We would prefer those who are involved in business to approach us for finance, particularly as we can offer it at a fair rate of 8.8%. We are a very good source of finance at a very fair price.

Mr. Pat Kilbane

On engagement with the banks, the Deputy's point is absolutely valid. We are trying to have more bank refusals transferred directly to us. For whatever reason, only approximately 10% of those who apply to and are turned down by the banks seek finance elsewhere. What we must try to do is increase this figure in a seamless fashion. As opposed to those to whom I refer being obliged to take further action, the banks should be able to refer more of them directly to us. We agree with the Deputy that it would be a tremendous step forward if we could increase the percentage in that regard.

Ms Geraldine Kelly

The matter in respect of which we all possibly need to assist each other is that which relates to people seeking the option of sustaining their existing enterprises. As stated, 60% of our work relates to new enterprises, but we also support existing ones. We want them to see what we have to offer as a way to help them to sustain their enterprises. This is broader than access to finance or training and mentoring and involves business people identifying real opportunities for their enterprises and seeing a demand for their products and services. This is much wider in scope than we can influence. However, because we can identify opportunities in all of these areas, we are of the view that what we can influence is going to encourage the retention of existing jobs and the creation of new ones in this category.

Ms Adrienne Murray

The Chairman referred to charges. I emphasise that Microfinance Ireland does not impose early repayment charges on applicants if they are fortunate enough to be able to accelerate their repayments. We offer loans on a fixed-rate basis.

In many cases if people borrow at a fixed rate and redeem their loans early, a penalty charge will be imposed, but if people are fortunate enough to accelerate their repayments, there are currently no penalty charges attaching to an Microfinance Ireland loan. We already have some customers who are in difficulties and we are working with them but in terms of missed repayments by a customer who has a difficulty, we do not impose any charges.

Ms Murray said that Microfinance Ireland is trying to actively assist young people and that they can approach it directly and need not have gone to a bank first and have got a refusal.

Ms Adrienne Murray

This is obviously in the area of retention.

Ms Murray is looking for a change in the scheme.

Ms Adrienne Murray

We are looking for a change. We will speak to the Department with regard to the statutory instrument. The process is that banks must decline an application for credit, either formally or informally, in the first place. If the youth enterprise scheme gets the appropriate funding and we go ahead in that respect, we will discuss with the Department the idea that we would link in directly into that in terms of part of the training, that we would work with the potential applicants and that we would be preferred or designated lender in order that the applicants could come straight to us. That is a practical demonstration of how we are exploring ways of how we can open up our channels of financing. Assisting young people under the age of 25 who wish to borrow will be particularly challenging as they will not have a track record or the standard security. In many areas there is a high business failure among that group, but they will have the combination of training, mentoring, the skills and a modest loan coupled with post-loan mentoring. Studies abroad demonstrate that with such supports there is a greater chance of businesses and jobs being sustained. We are exploring options such as that.

The witnesses are very welcome and I thank them for teaching us about this initiative area and telling me a great deal that I do not know already. I have been judging the Entrepreneur of the Year for Business & Finance magazine in the past few weeks and we have come down to the final decision. There were 32 entries. They were bigger operations than the ones Ms Murray mentioned but they all started out the same as the people Microfinance Ireland has looked after. What the witnesses are doing is very worthy of support and we must find a way to do that.

I learned in a television programme that I did that local support is very important, particularly in the case of a person producing a product or running a shop. I recall a business, a shop that was located way out in the country, where we got the local people to come in and told them that if they did not support it that it would not be here next year and they would have to go into the nearest town to get a newspaper, cigarettes and other goods. Businesses need local support. There is potential support locally if people can be convinced of the benefit of having such local support.

I am also involved with Linked Finance, which is part of a crowdfunding operation. It impresses me greatly that if one is able to involve local people who have lent money to, rather than invested in, a local business, then they feel they need to support it and there is an obligation on their part to support it. That type of operation is working very well. It is not dissimilar to what Microfinance Ireland is doing except certain rules apply, one being that an operator must be at least two years in business before becoming involved.

If Ms Murray on her way home from this meeting bumped into a leprechaun and he said to her, "I will do anything you need; I can give you anything you want and I am particularly mindful of the articles of association of the organisation", is there anything she would say in terms of, "If only I had this we could do a much better job"? Is there anything we could do to assist her? We could play the role of the leprechaun and do our best to give her that support, whether it would involve the Minister for Finance or some other Minister. Is there something she would like to see done or has she already got everything she needs?

The Senator might get a job out of it.

Ms Adrienne Murray

I thank the Senator of his welcome comments. In terms of Business & Finance magazine and the awards schemes, and even those at local level, they are all welcome initiatives in promoting the tremendous work that is done. As Ms Geraldine Kelly said, the sole traders and the local entrepreneurs are the real winners and the champions of this. We need to promote them. The Senator will appreciate that it is early days for us, even in terms of people being up and running with their repayments before we could promote them either on our website or in provisional papers. We are conscious of using our marketing budget as effectively as possible and we have already started including some of our customers and using them to promote Microfinance Ireland at speaking engagements throughout the country. I am very much of the view that they are the success stories and the real champions of this.

In terms of having a leprechaun or a magic wand, we will continuously strive to talk to people. We all know people who have had the unfortunate experience of business failure or who have loss their jobs. Most people would view this organisation as a good idea and a welcome initiative. Many more people are hearing about us. In terms of the application process, I would mention a shortened application process or, as we outlined earlier, whether there is there a link that we missed in terms of the process with the banks, whereby they would refer the declined application directly at source to us. That would help us in our process. It would help us in our marketing if there was an automatic referral and customer consent in that respect at the outset. In fairness, the banks have willingly accepted that they will engage with us in exploring that opportunity and it will be led by the customer. As Mr. Pat Kilbane mentioned, there are many figures on people who have been declined credit. The Credit Review Office, which has been in existence for the past few years, has faced the same challenges in identifying customer behaviour or what is the reason that people do not pursue their application to an appeals process in its case. We need to educate those people, provide the channels and, as Deputy Lawlor said, get our message out to particular sectors, such as the youth sector, and make them aware of this initiative. There is not a magic wand or a leprechaun that can grant my wishes overnight but we are working very hard. We are a young organisation, a small business, and we are doing our utmost to explore every opportunity and challenge.

In terms of the tremendous work that has been done on our website, I acknowledge that Eircom, recognising this as a Government initiative, provided financial support to Microfinance Ireland for that. On promoting the scheme, we have PR company that has agreed to assist us on a pro bono basis. There is great goodwill towards this initiative and we are working very hard to find the right avenues and channels to promote it.

Ms Geraldine Kelly

We all love the idea of a crock at the end of the rainbow. The way I think about that idea is that this is about hope. It is about those businesses that are struggling today realising that the opportunity to come to Microfinance Ireland exists. We circulated the case studies as part of our presentation. We are supporting a wide range of businesses including people engaged in the production of free range meat products and specialist ice-cream and a person who has a tax audit franchise. In addition to Ms Adrienne Murray's wish in terms of a crock of gold of getting access directly at the point where people having not been access to credit., those businesses that we have supported will be great champions for us in spreading the word. There is no stronger promotion than a person who is running a business saying to somebody else, "This worked for me, why do you not consider that?". It is about spreading the word. Those businesses are in all the constituencies around the country. What we are talking about is about capturing that in order that we can keep the momentum.

I welcome the witnesses and I congratulate them on what they have achieved. Theirs is a new business and while it is supported by Government and the State, they have to set up all the processes and it is quite a complex job to get money out there and start lending.

Currently 96% of all finance for small business in Ireland comes from banks. That is not sustainable and if we are serious about driving small business and entrepreneurship that percentage must come way down. In other countries the equivalent percentage is approximately 70%. We talk a good deal about being pro-business, pro-small business and pro-entrepreneurship but when one peels it back we are not. We have some good practices but we have a great many practices that we can change and Microfinance Ireland is part of that change.

I would like the role of Microfinance Ireland to be widened a little.

The other interesting point to note is that 70% of new jobs will come from the small business sector, the people being supported by Microfinance Ireland. I did a quick calculation on what Deputy Calleary said and of the 237 jobs supported by Microfinance Ireland at a cost of €1.62 million, when divided and multiplied by the other amount the office is supposed to lend, a total of 5,600 jobs would be created within the period which would exceed the target of 3,200 and almost double it based on what has been achieved to date. Microfinance Ireland deserves congratulations in that regard.

Marketing is a big issue. It is difficult to get through the noise because we constantly hear so much negativity. We must focus on changing that. I would like to see Microfinance Ireland involved in youth entrepreneurship because there is huge opportunity in it. There are large innovation centres in all the institutes of technology around the country. Microfinance Ireland must get in touch with all of them and the local authorities which have an economic brief. Some of them are better than others. There are also local Leader groups. Credit unions might be interested in doing work with Microfinance Ireland as they can no longer lend to business or at least should not lend to business. It could be worthwhile to get involved in a partnership with them.

One of the interesting points I noted from the information provided by Microfinance Ireland was the amount of women who had taken out loans. Enterprise Ireland does a lot of work to promote female entrepreneurship and there are some good people involved in Enterprise Ireland with whom it might be worth developing links.

Microfinance Ireland appears to have a bright future. I would like to see it being able to lend more than €25,000 where there is the opportunity but I accept that it is early days and the situation might change.

It would be great if Microfinance Ireland did not have to operate through the banks because the requirement to get a refusal from a bank can break people, especially when they are in difficulty. It can also take time before a bank issues a refusal. We can talk to the Minister about being more open on the issue so that people could go directly to Microfinance Ireland.

I dealt with an issue that arose about tax clearance. I welcome the fact that the website has changed and is more user-friendly. I commend Microfinance Ireland in that regard.

Everyone present knows my views on mentoring. We did a report on it earlier this year. It was processed through Forfás, which carried out a more in-depth report, the results of which have come out. The results are alarming. We spend €8.2 million on mentoring in this country and it probably costs another €10 million to deliver the service yet we are reaching only 5% of the population. Decisions require to be taken on recommendations that were made. I hope the situation will improve and that we will be able to monitor the outcomes.

I am concerned about rates of decline. Has Microfinance Ireland seen any patterns with the rates? A success rate of 45% has been achieved. Is the problem with the people who do not get through due to mentoring or that their business is not sustainable?

Ms Adrienne Murray

I thank Deputy Áine Collins for her positive feedback. We welcome suggestions on reaching target audiences such as through the colleges, incubation centres and credit unions. In some cases we have developed links, for example, with programmes such as LaunchPad, but the innovation and incubation centres are part of our strategy for 2014. Credit unions in particular in urban areas support self-employed people and we have been in contact to say we would welcome applications.

In conjunction with Enterprise Ireland, we have funded some high potential start-ups, HPSUs, that are partially trading, which is to be welcomed. We have linked in with Enterprise Ireland which has been very supportive of us. Different teams are involved in terms of young companies that have attracted innovation funding that are potential exporters, although that is not our direct remit. Nonetheless, if such companies need a small loan for working capital we can assist.

Deputy Áine Collins referred to mentoring and the Forfás report. We would welcome any new initiatives that can support the microfinance model. We look forward to any initiatives or announcements by the Government in that regard.

In terms of bank refusals, we are conscious of the difference between what is classified as a formal decline and an informal decline. To use bank-speak, a formal decline is that the customer provides all their documentation and it goes through the bank’s formal application process, which can take X number of days. An informal decline – we are getting good traction on this – is where a person can go along to their local branch, discuss the project and get a verbal decline. We are happy to accept a verbal or informal decline on a self-certified basis. That is a practical example and we are getting traction in that regard.

In terms of approval rates, we anticipated that it would be in the region of 50% and we are in the region of 45% to 46%. In terms of decline rates, in the first case the applicants have all been declined by the banks, either formally or informally so we are already in a high risk category, but we have a different risk appetite from the banks in that our appetite for risk is higher. The trends in terms of declined applications are based on business models not being sufficiently researched. In some cases the business is in a highly competitive area in which we see business failure every day, sometimes due to saturation in particular sectors in local economies. In other cases, the skills of some entrepreneurs are not relative and they do not have the necessary experience or, ultimately, the business model that is projected does not demonstrate repayment capacity.

We do try to get applicants over the line. It is a sad fact of life but in many cases people already have high levels of debt, both personal and business, and we do not think we would be doing people any favours by putting another loan on them where they already have existing debt. In many cases we will lend to people who have outstanding borrowings, both personal and business, but where they are able to demonstrate that they have arrangements in place with a borrower, be it on interest-only or where a moratorium has been agreed with the lender. In many of the declined applications we have not been able to see proof of that in terms of their outstanding commitments.

I keep coming back to mentoring. In terms of some of the applications that have not got through, we would defer them, go back to the county enterprise boards and say we think there is a good idea and ask them to provide mentoring assistance in a particular area, be it finance, marketing or distribution, and the applicants come back to us at a later stage and we are able to approve them. We refer people back to county enterprise boards to see whether they can refine the application further and sometimes we can help in terms of phased drawdown. If they reach certain milestones, we can review the progress of the business and then perhaps release a bit more of the loan. We are conscious of being solution focused.

Mr. Pat Kilbane

It is probably worth mentioning our appeal process. If a client is declined by us we have an appeal process and the decision is taken out of the hands of the executives. If an external credit assessor would award the credit, then he or she has the right to make a decision on the transaction in question. A total of 10% of declines have managed to be successful in the appeal process. We have a check on ourselves to try to make sure we support as many businesses as possible.

Is the 5% included in the 45% that were originally declined?

Mr. Pat Kilbane

Yes, it would be.

Does that mean the original decline rate was 60% with a grant rate of 40% and then it went up to 45%?

Ms Adrienne Murray

Yes, in terms of the numbers but as with any appeals process new information can come to light.

It is important to have an appeals process.

Ms Adrienne Murray

Yes, and it is independent and final.

My understanding is that the board of Microfinance Ireland is composed of voluntary members.

Ms Adrienne Murray

Absolutely.

I pay tribute to them and the work they do.

Before we move on to Senator White, I have a quick question on reasons for refusal. I presume some of the companies might not be in a position to pay back money owed in the first year or two. Is that factored into the process? Are principle holidays offered or does the money have to be repaid from year one?

Ms Adrienne Murray

No, we are very solution-focused. We look at the cashflow model of the business and in some cases have given what are called moratoriums. In terms of building a relationship with the customer, at the very least, we are talking about a small loan and we would look for an interest. That consolidates the relationship. Some of these businesses are seasonable and their cashflow would be based around that model so we will try to tailor a solution in terms of the repayment schedule. As I said, we will do up to three years for working capital or cashflow. If it is an equipment loan, in line with standards, we would go up over five years. In respect of small loans of up to €5,000, given that the back-to-work allowance is for two years, we will tailor the loan to two years. It is in conjunction with the repayment capacity of the people with those small loans.

It has been an enlightening and fascinating experience for which I congratulate the three witnesses. I know they are doing their best in terms of advertising their work but even if the three witnesses got a session on television to present what they are doing, it would be helpful because we need new jobs and it has been said earlier that small businesses are the ones creating the jobs.

I welcome the establishment of the fund and the fact that it carries on the work of First Step in this area of micro-enterprises where the banks have turned down funding requests and extends into core areas of enterprise where Enterprise Ireland does not go. When I spoke to Ms Murray about another matter, I was very interested to learn about how 33% of people setting up businesses are in retailing. It would never have crossed my mind but I am engaged in enterprise so it is all adding up. Would a hairdressing salon be included?

Ms Adrienne Murray

Absolutely.

That is fascinating because I have been in business for 16 years and a politician since 2002 and was asked to talk to a constituent of one of the Deputies in my party. I ran up against a stone wall about getting her help from the county enterprise boards because they do not help hair salons. I have visited her salon and this lady employs people. It is a great shame. I tried to include this issue in the new Bill relating to county and city enterprise boards in respect of mentoring but the amendment was rejected. I am taking that up formally in the Oireachtas. It was presumed that mentoring was going to cost money whereas the board of Microfinance Ireland is voluntary. It was short-sighted to reject my amendment because I said mentoring could be included. They presumed it would cost money. I intend to take it further.

It is excellent that in contrast to the banks, Microfinance Ireland lends without security or collateral. Its approval rate for completed applications in year one to 30 September is reasonable. In respect of the approval rate of between 45% and 46%, Ms Murray said that people already have a reasonable level of debt. I have referred to a friend of mine who is one of Microfinance Ireland's customers - Vicky Crosbie. She will not mind me mentioning her. She is an accountant and I told her I would mention her case today. She is a brilliant girl and is getting on very well thanks to the help of Microfinance Ireland but she did say that she does not know how one would get a loan if one were not an accountant. I presume that is the enterprise job. What she said was interesting. She knows finance and accountancy and can do it in her sleep. I asked her for her opinion. It is one to look at.

What is the projected growth in application approvals over the next two to three years in order to meet the Government's targets? Presumably, the board has a plan to meet the targets of €90 million to 5,000 enterprises over ten years and support 7,700 jobs. This equates to nine million approvals per year,1.6 million approved to 30 September 2013 and 550 enterprises supported each year, so that leaves 107 approved to 30 September 2013. There is obviously an expectation of a big pick-up in activity to meet the Government projections. The report in September refers to an average ten-day turnaround. Is this the time from application to decision? What is the turnaround between approval of loan and payment? The other point that has been referred to Senator Cullinane is the failure of three counties. Leitrim has six applications and no approvals, Donegal has four applications and no approvals and Longford has four applications and no approvals. They have been vetted by the county enterprise boards so I would like to know why this has happened. I do not need to repeat it.

It was very interesting listening to the three witnesses and I enjoyed the presentation thoroughly. They are all thorough professionals and know what they are talking about. Could Ms Murray answer my questions?

Ms Adrienne Murray

There are a number of questions. Senator White raised an interesting point about the county enterprise boards and their interaction with different sectors, particularly services such as the local hairdresser mentioned by Senator White. There are certain sector exclusions for county enterprise boards in terms of grant funding and that would be governed by EU law and legislation. Traditionally, the county enterprise boards have had sector exclusions but that does not extend to the boards being enabled and willing to provide mentoring across all sectors. They have been extremely helpful to us. We are open to all sectors from the local beautician to the local service trades worker. In all cases, the county enterprise boards are providing mentoring and business training to all sector applicants to Microfinance Ireland regardless of the industry. It is a point about which people get confused. It will be clarified for the county enterprise boards as they evolve into the local enterprise offices. I think it has been referred to as the first-step shop for local enterprise that can provide a range of services, training, business support, mentoring, details of grant support for certain sectors-----

I apologise for interrupting but if it is a business like a hair salon that employs five or six people, it is not eligible for money and mentoring either.

The issue for the county enterprise boards is that of displacement. They can only do it with new businesses because it is not interference.

I understand-----

Can I comment on this because I had the same query recently? The county enterprise boards are supposed to provide mentoring to anybody who requests it regardless of their sector and competition.

They do but in respect of initial grant aid, the State's rules are first on their list of priorities.

Not grand aid but mentoring.

In this particular case, this lady is well able to get business but she cannot afford to take on a business partner. She needs business advice on a fortnightly basis. I do not accept what the Chairman said about displacement.

It is not that at all. It is a rule of the State that they cannot do it.

I tried to change it in respect of the county enterprise boards Bill and my amendment was rejected. I was talking about the possibility of voluntary activities. The board of Microfinance Ireland is voluntary. Is Ms Murray on the board?

Ms Adrienne Murray

Ms Kelly is our chair and Mr. Kilbane is our head of finance and risk so he is on the executive.

Excellent. So Ms Murray is the board member. She is a patriot - fair dues to her. The point I was making is that the civil servants in here fail to grasp that mentoring is done by thousands of people on a voluntary basis. They did not want to know, so I must take it further. Does Ms Murray understand what I am saying? It is stupid. When I raised the matter, I was advised that this happens regularly with Bills that are brought in here. Some bureaucrat decides that it cannot be done.

Ms Adrienne Murray

I have to acknowledge the support and assistance of the county enterprise boards in providing mentoring services to Microfinance Ireland applicants regardless of the sector they are in. Senator White is right in that there is a huge network of voluntary mentors throughout the country. There are plenty of different chambers of commerce events and local enterprise that have panels of voluntary members.

As an entrepreneur myself, I make the point that when starting Lir Chocolates, Connie Doody and I did not have a pen or pencil between us but we were obliged to work 24-7 for 16 years, including Christmas Day and New Year's Day. We went down the export route and there is the possibility that some of Microfinance Ireland's companies can also do that because we need companies that will export to bring in the foreign exchange.

Ms Adrienne Murray

Yes.

That is absolutely critical. However, in the case of the county enterprise board, its chief executive, Harry McGee, agreed with me that he would help that lady. He did that himself and accepted it. It is an issue that must be dealt with.

Can Ms Murray pick up on those questions, as others also have questions?

Ms Adrienne Murray

As for the documentation required for microfinance, the application form is modelled exactly on the standard bank application. We were very conscious not to duplicate another piece of paperwork for potential Microfinance Ireland, MFI, applicants. Regardless of whether they are applying for bank funding, grant funding, any type of assistance or an MFI loan, members will agree on the need for the standard business plan and up-to-date financial information like the cash flow. We are very conscious not to duplicate any other information that is not required by the banks.

The point I was making is that every business starts small.

Ms Adrienne Murray

Yes.

While 200 people currently are employed in Lir Chocolates, it started with nothing. Consequently, it is possible to do it and it is mainly for export. While I am not boasting or anything, having experienced it myself, I am familiar with the trials, tribulations and challenges faced relentlessly on a daily basis.

Perhaps we can take all the answers and then we can revert to this afterwards.

I simply wished to congratulate the witnesses and to put my questions formally on the record.

A couple of questions remain to be answered and I believe Ms Geraldine Kelly wishes to respond.

Ms Geraldine Kelly

In response to Senator White, I might comment on our expectations for next year. From my perspective on the board, a ten-year plan is just that, and is a long way out. Our specific focus on strategy is on the next five years and specifically on next year. Ms Murray has already noted we anticipate that we will support double the number of jobs next year. We have supported 250 already this year and may have another number by the end of the year, by which time we might even get it to 300. We anticipate that we will support at least 500 jobs next year and that basically is the context in which to address that question.

I thank Ms Kelly.

Ms Adrienne Murray

As for county participation, obviously in the last few weeks, on foot of our national advertising campaign, we have seen an uplift in applications. Sadly, there is only one county in Ireland in which we have yet to approve but we are hoping that with a marketing effort there and perhaps linking in with local business networks, they will help us to promote the scheme locally.

I have one brief question and a suggestion. In the earlier discussion with Deputy Lawlor, Ms Murray mentioned that some of Microfinance Ireland's approvals are already experiencing difficulties in repayment. What percentage of arrears is Microfinance Ireland already experiencing? Second, the information provided to the joint committee today has been excellent. I believe it would be worth Microfinance Ireland's while to engage with local radio stations.

Ms Adrienne Murray

Okay.

They have morning programmes on which, unlike in Dublin, they actually allow one to talk. It is an information exchange, as opposed to an exchange of opinion and I really believe that in those counties in which Microfinance Ireland may be below target, it should consider using the local radio stations. Members would be more than happy to facilitate introductions for the witnesses.

Ms Adrienne Murray

That would be helpful and I thank the Deputy.

Local radio serves the purpose of getting across information and Microfinance Ireland's communications strategy should involve the local radio sector.

Ms Adrienne Murray

I thank the Deputy and we certainly will take that on board.

Before we conclude, I have a couple of questions of my own. First, today's session has been highly informative in respect of teasing through matters and we might make this an annual visit, if the witnesses have time in their schedule next year to do the same. However, I compliment the work Microfinance Ireland is doing. It is not the organisation's fault if the applications do not come in. While it can do everything possible to advertise itself and spread the word, it takes more than one year to get out that message. Nevertheless, it is important that Microfinance Ireland and the service it provides are in place. It is of key importance that people have an opportunity to approach it and hopefully to make an application. It is not the fault of Microfinance Ireland and if the information is not out there, so be it.

However, I have a couple of questions in this regard. There is a big difference between those being refused by the banks and those ending up at the witnesses' offices or at the Credit Review Office. Consequently, I believe the banks have a greater role to encourage people to approach Microfinance Ireland. Passing out the word alone might not be enough and giving people a small push might be required. Has an agreement been reached with the banks whereby they can voluntarily suggest people should approach Microfinance Ireland? Alternatively, do the witnesses want this to be an automatic process, whereby the banks send such applications to Microfinance Ireland automatically thereafter? I acknowledge that Microfinance Ireland cannot be in a position of offering loans to those who have not applied for them either and, consequently, there is a small issue in this regard.

As for spreading the word, I presume Microfinance Ireland has engaged with all the chambers of commerce? There are many groups in all counties delivering programmes, including mentoring programmes, start-your-own-business programmes and so on. Has Microfinance Ireland tapped into all the associated databases? Does it request that its information be sent out to all those concerned? Within the enterprise boards, start-your-own-business courses and all sorts of follow-on programmes are being conducted every night of the week and presumably that is the clientele that Microfinance Ireland is trying to reach. It should be facilitated in getting the word out because with eight employees, it cannot do everything. There is a duty on all State bodies and organisations, as well as private sector bodies, to pass on Microfinance Ireland's message. If the joint committee can help with so doing, it certainly will. As for the senior entrepreneurs, that is, those aged over 50, I presume Microfinance Ireland has also engaged with them.

On the applications it has received, has Microfinance Ireland received many initial contacts, via e-mail, questions or telephone calls, that have not proceeded with an application? Does Ms Murray have to hand figures on this because it would be interesting and would highlight whether there was a problem with the scheme? For example, the maximum amount of €25,000 may or may not be a deterrent. If it is, the joint committee really must consider the issue, as that is part of its function. While I gather that might not be the case, the only way to know is from the information gleaned from those who approach Microfinance Ireland but do not make an application. If these figures are high, there is a reason for that and it will be necessary to consider what is on offer. I will leave those comments with the witnesses.

Ms Adrienne Murray

I thank the Chairman. In response to his first question on the banks and the desirability of automatic referral, to date we have engaged with the banks in a goodwill manner. They have been helping us to promote the scheme and, as I stated, the Minister, Deputy Bruton, held a round-table meeting last week that was attended by us and representatives of some other initiatives such as the Credit Review Office and the partial loan guarantee scheme. In addition, the small to medium-sized enterprise, SME, banks were also present. He asked us to bring along concrete proposals as to how the banks could help Microfinance Ireland. We are of the firm belief that there may be a process in this regard for the customer. While we can do a lot of promoting and so on in this regard, the challenge really is how to make it seamless and easier for the customer. We hope that over the next two weeks, we will carry out, on an individual bilateral basis, a small look-back over the SME banks' declined applications over the past four to six weeks. It may be possible for them to contact those customers and explain to them that MFI is a Government initiative, and asking them for their permission to pass on their customer documentation. We are not looking for the bank's information in the context of data protection rules or anything like that. Instead, we seek customers' consent to pass on their application and supporting documentation directly to Microfinance Ireland. Thereafter, we can use our own assessment slide rule, for want of a better term, given our different appetite for risk and can then ascertain whether this is where the potential applicants can come to us directly. It is early days and we have not even put pen to paper in respect of the process and so forth. The Minister, Deputy Bruton, has asked us to report back on the pilot by the end of December. In the future, however, if the pilot is successful, it would be interesting to have inclusion of customer consent at the outset of the bank application. In other words, should the application with the bank be unsuccessful or only partially successful, the customers would give approval or consent to the bank to pass on automatically their documentation to MFI. That is the concrete proposal we brought forward to the aforementioned forum.

The question on the database is interesting. We get a lot of telephone calls and, in particular, we see an uplift in them when we have an advertising campaign. To be honest with the Chairman, we simply did not have the resources. We had six weeks in which to get up and running and had a different website. While it served us well, it did not have the functionality of creating databases, storing information, etc. We have more work to do on our website yet but we consider it to be one of our main channels of delivery. We do not have a network. The county enterprise boards are the delivery channel and a strong promotional channel but we believe, like many others, that the direct channel offers great potential.

It offers us the opportunity, as the Chairman stated, to capture inquiries, either coming through the website or from elsewhere, and then follow them up to determine why they did not pursue the application. Many would say we would nearly know. We have been monitoring those calls and we get a fairly strong indication when we take the name and address over the telephone as to whether it looks like a concrete application. In terms of sending an inquiry to us via our website, in the future our new website will allow us greater opportunity to monitor those inquiries and whether they turn into solid sales leads.

From what Microfinance Ireland has dealt with, has Ms Murray a general feeling? Is there a particular reason they do not pursue an application? Is the amount of money an issue or not?

Ms Adrienne Murray

It is not the amount of money. Anyone who picks up the telephone would see it quite clearly. They would have issues and would ask, for example, if we undertake an ICP credit check, is a tax clearance certificate required or why do they have to go to their bank. That is one of the matters that we would have addressed. Getting a formal decline from the bank could delay a process and the informal or verbal decline has been one of our responses to that.

In terms of senior entrepreneur events, we have engaged, been involved and linked in with a number of those events throughout the country. We have a big cohort of clients who have, for want of a better word, "reinvented" themselves or brought different skills to the local market in terms of creating a job for themselves or sustaining local employment. Is there anything else on that?

Deputy Calleary had a question as well.

It was on the arrears side of matters.

Ms Adrienne Murray

On the arrears side, it is high risk.

Mr. Pat Kilbane

I suppose the best way we can describe it is as follows. Clearly, we want applications, we want approvals and then we have to mind the loans that we have.

In terms of the loans we have put on the books already, we have had a credit event with close to 20% of those we have supported. That credit event can be anything, from just a mistake in having funds in the account to something at the very serious end. We are in the risk business.

For a unit of our size, all of these matters must be hand-held when they happen. We are in a collection process on a monthly basis. I suppose we would leave the Deputy with that thought, that we are in the risk business. For a company this young, we are not alarmed by that statistic because we have a risk appetite. We are in the risk business.

If we were not having some problems, the committee would ask-----

"What is wrong?"

Mr. Pat Kilbane

-----"What is wrong?", because we would be too good at what we do in terms of credit writing. We have a risk appetite and we need to use that risk appetite.

Does Microfinance Ireland see itself needing to expand its own employment as the business grows?

Mr. Pat Kilbane

Earlier I described our fixed core cost. I mentioned a figure of €700,000, which relates to the core staff numbers. Beyond that, our model is that we would use external credit assessors to help us on a case-by-case basis, as much for geographic dispersion around the country and being close to the credit as for sectoral specialisms because there may be sectors where there are persons who are much better qualified on a particular case.

Will Microfinance Ireland use the enterprise boards on that because they would have the same type of credit?

Ms Adrienne Murray

In terms of their involvement and their assistance to us, enterprise boards are not involved in lending money.

But they use assessors.

Ms Adrienne Murray

Absolutely, they have business mentors.

Does Microfinance Ireland use them?

Ms Adrienne Murray

In many cases, it is the business mentor of the CEB who is working with our potential clients or assisting clients.

They have assessors as well.

Ms Adrienne Murray

They have assessors and they would have business mentors with particular skills but they do not provide input in terms of recommending the loan. They assist applicants with their application. They add the benefit of their local or sector knowledge. However, in terms of assessing the repayment capacity, they would assist on that but, ultimately, in terms of assessing the credit, that is the responsibility of Microfinance Ireland.

As Mr. Kilbane stated, it is important that we have a panel of external assessors. Some of them are also involved with the Credit Review Office. Where there is particular sector expertise or a geographical spread, in many cases we would feel that the only way to properly assess this is to go on a site visit, and we would use external assessors there. We would tell the assessor we feel there is something here that is not coming across and perhaps if he or she would go out to see the business, that would demonstrate to us, give us clearer comfort or line of sight around what is happening there.

I will ask one more question. Ms Murray need not answer it today. She might come back on it.

I would be concerned that in Microfinance Ireland's category of refusals there must be persons who are over-indebted. There is no doubt about that and she has told us that as well. Among them, there are also some good ideas of job creation. The country could be missing out on potential businesses, that might employ ten or 20, and that could become, for all I know, the next Lir Chocolates. Such persons fall through everyone's net. I would be interested to hear that there is a record kept on them. It is something we will discuss with the Minister. How do we find someone who cannot borrow any more money but who has a good idea and has a good business and who could be good? It is a shame for the State to miss out on that talent merely because there is a history of debt. Microfinance Ireland cannot solve the problem either, but we need to find a solution to what we do with those because we need them back in the country creating jobs. I am afraid that, with all the groups to whom we speak such as Microfinance Ireland, everyone's rule is that one cannot merely back them on the day and stay in it. We need to find some way of dealing with that because there are a number of them. At some stage, Ms Murray might provide an analysis of how many such persons we are talking about and their job creation potential if we could find a way of helping them. I do not expect a reply today, but she might reply, if possible, at a later stage.

Ms Adrienne Murray

In some of the applications we see, there may be particular legacy debt, both personal or business. However, in some cases, due to the type of business concerned, it is not a lending call; it is an equity call. They need somebody to invest in the business because they are pre-revenue. They could still be at the research and development stage. There are plenty of avenues. We would suggest those avenues to them, in terms of grant support, small equity or business angels. We are building up our knowledge too.

Does Microfinance Ireland pass them on?

Ms Adrienne Murray

We refer them-----

That is okay then.

Ms Adrienne Murray

-----in terms of the avenues and those to whom they could speak who may be able to help them.

Ms Geraldine Kelly

If I could make a final comment on that as it is important for the committee to gain an appreciation of this, the team we have in place, in the office and on the board, is very committed to asking how it can make an impact in this area. It is important that we point out that, as everybody around here will be aware, it is a balance between the good business idea and the entrepreneur. It is that combination that makes the success. Certainly, because the team is passionate about being helpful to that entrepreneur, if for some reason it cannot be approved in its current format, the team would go the extra mile to suggest alternatives and other roads to go. That happens on a daily basis. That is difficult to pinpoint in the statistics because one does not know when that person will get that extra advice and come back in another format.

That is good. It is important we recognise Microfinance Ireland is doing that work because I accept it is not in its reports.

On behalf of the committee, I thank the representatives of Microfinance Ireland for coming in to join us today at short notice. I appreciate it.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.40 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 19 November 2013.
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