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Joint Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation debate -
Tuesday, 25 Feb 2014

Strengthening the Start-up Community: Discussion

The purpose of the meeting is to discuss the recently published report of the entrepreneurship forum entitled Entrepreneurship in Ireland: Strengthening the Startup Community. I welcome Mr. Sean O'Sullivan, chairman of the entrepreneurship forum; Ms Wendy Gray, from the small and medium sized enterprise policy unit in the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation; Mr. Daniel Ramamoorthy, founder and chief executive officer of Treehouse; and Professor Tom Cooney of the Dublin Institute of Technology.

I draw attention to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I invite Mr. O'Sullivan to make his presentation.

Mr. Sean O'Sullivan

I thank the Chairman for inviting us to this meeting. I also thank the joint committee for its support for the technology visa proposal, on which I made a presentation to members last year. The Government introduced a technology visa programme in April 2013 and has made a number of improvements to the scheme in the months since. We have seen the impact of this measure in the continued growth and vitality of the high-tech sector. Figures from the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation indicate that the policy has created hundreds of new jobs and perhaps more than 1,000 indirect jobs in the nine months since it was implemented. I am certain that tens of thousands of jobs will be created if this and similar policies are continued and expanded. I applaud the Government for its quick action on that front.

Last summer, I was asked by the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Richard Bruton, to chair a forum for the purpose of making recommendations on the issue of entrepreneurship. I drew together a group of entrepreneurs, academics and Government officials and we consulted hundreds of stakeholders from every part of society and the business community. The forum consisted of volunteers who were pressed into service through a sense of duty and honour. I thank them all for the countless hours they spent in and out of session. We produced a report entitled Entrepreneurship in Ireland: Strengthening the Startup Community, the overall purpose of which is to support the Government's development of the first national entrepreneurship policy.

When the forum on entrepreneurship convened, the statistics on entrepreneurship in Ireland were bleak. Members are undoubtedly aware of the fine work done worldwide on producing the Global Entrepreneurship Monitor, GEM, report, in which Ireland has participated for many years. The GEM report for 2012 revealed some startling statistics. Ireland ranked 22nd of 22 European Union member states in terms of the percentage of the adult population - 8% - who aspired to be entrepreneurs. It also ranked 17th of 22 countries in terms of the number of people - 2.3% - who were early-stage entrepreneurs. Despite the strong and welcome presence of multinational companies, we know that the majority of jobs are created by indigenous businesses in their first five years of operation. If we are to attack the problem of unemployment, we must therefore attack the issue of a community of people who do not appear to be either interested in creating jobs or in the process of doing so. We must work on the supply of entrepreneurs and start-up companies if we hope to create a supply of jobs in the economy.

When the GEM report for 2013 was published last month it indicated that the climate in Ireland had improved since last year. At best, however, we remain in the middle of the pack. We have a higher goal and much higher need as a country. The Taoiseach has repeatedly stressed that he wants Ireland to be the best small country in the world for business. Government cannot lead the start-up economy or community. This is not a communist country with a command-and-control economy but a market economy made up of thousands of interchangeable parts that must look to each other and the world as opposed to the Government. Nevertheless, the Government can create an environment in which start-up companies thrive.

The title of our report features the words "start-up community" because to create an environment in which many people are thriving in the creation of businesses, we must improve our learning and sharing and replicate the successful start-up communities found in the dynamic, job-creating hubs that exist in many countries, including the United States, which, at 12%, has nearly twice the rate of early-stage entrepreneurship as Ireland.

The report contains 69 recommendations, including recommendations on improving community - for example, through physical co-working centres; culture - for example, by facilitating employee stock ownership programmes; competency - for example, by requiring science, technology, engineering and mathematics, STEM, students to take a course on commercialisation before graduation; and capacity - for example, by improving sources of finance. Many of the recommendations help three or four elements at the same time. Officehours, for example, is a programme in which experienced entrepreneurs and experts volunteer a few hours of their time every week or month interlinking the community, demonstrating a "give before one gets" culture and improving the competency of the population by providing links to capacity for finance and staffing. Dozens of entrepreneurs are already volunteering their time online at officehours.ie, providing hundreds of hours of free mentoring every month to people who are searching for it.

We propose to bring to the attention of the joint committee a few of the specific recommendations we consider to be the most pressing, which require active intervention by the Government. We will focus on two areas. The first area is people. This includes tackling unemployment by getting more people to become entrepreneurs, targeting the unemployed, women, youth and third level graduates, and developing peer mentoring networks. We must get more people off the dole and encourage them to be entrepreneurs. One way of achieving this is by reducing the time a person is required to be on the live register before being eligible for the back-to-work enterprise allowance. This is recommendation No. 6 in the report. If we want more people to start businesses, we should reduce the favouritism shown to employees over business founders and enable more women to engage as entrepreneurs rather than employees. The maternity leave scheme should be amended to enable a woman to transfer a portion of her maternity leave and benefits to the father of the child. In addition, qualifying weeks for PRSI payments should be the same for female entrepreneurs as female employees. There is an expression that women hold up half the sky. We are not using half of the population to its full capacity to help develop the economy. We hope, through some of the measures we have proposed, to improve the economic environment. While one could view this in some ways as a civil rights issue, I regard it solely as an economic issue.

JobBridge is an effective programme for giving greater competence to our workforce, especially those who are young and inexperienced. JobBridge gives a leg up the employment ladder for the unemployed. We should seek to expand it by a factor of ten. Up to 50,000 people on the dole should be on JobBridge instead. Can we create an internship programme for our youth, based on the JobBridge programme, that can be funded by corporations rather than the Government? This could be another way of extending the employment ladder to the unemployed at no cost to the Government.

We should commercialise the work of our research institutions and give competence and cultural awareness to our technical talent, who create the most scaleable and highest-economic-value enterprises. In particular, we believe that STEM students should be required to take a commercialisation course before graduation. I am an engineering graduate, and in the semester before graduating from college I took a principles of entrepreneurship course. From that, I created a company that ended up employing thousands of people in the little community of Troy in upstate New York. These are the kinds of opportunity that we could be taking advantage of all the time. STEM students are not being trained in the skills they need to have in order to start businesses. If they were being trained in this way, we would be creating more jobs.

Much of the work that needs to be done in Ireland does not need to be led by the Government, and the Government should be aware that it should not be looked to for solving our problems. The start-up community itself needs to deploy more activities for start-up events, and not everything should be in Dublin or Cork. We need the start-up culture and community to spread throughout the country.

Peer mentoring networks need to grow, as set out in recommendations 20 and 21 of the report. Officehours is only a small piece of this. Programmes such as Techpreneur in Dublin or EO Ireland are great models for peer mentoring and should be led by the private sector on a voluntary basis.

The second and final area I wish to cover is that of finance. We believe that money follows structural advantages. For example, Ireland has a capital gains tax exemption in respect of property held for seven years, whereby capital can flow into physical assets now without being subject to any capital gains tax. Therefore, money will flow into these assets and not be available for investment in Irish enterprises. Despite all the lessons we have learnt in the past that housing estates do not produce jobs, and that capital increases in cost of living do not help our competitiveness or people's prosperity, we continue not to have a capital gains policy that attracts financing to start-up businesses. If we want money to flow into job creation we must encourage the creation of a capital gains tax programme whereby it is an advantage for money to be placed in start-up businesses. Such a programme does not exist in Ireland today. Ireland has one of the highest rates of capital gains in the EU and twice the OECD average rate of capital gains tax. This is an abysmal deterrent. Ultimately, the Government must find a way to lower the capital gains tax. We know it is difficult in this environment, but we need jobs as well. This is the conflict we face. In the short term, failing a change in the overall capital gains tax rate, our specific recommendation is to allow roll-over investment relief on capital gains into Irish companies in various forms, which we mention in the report.

We need to improve employee stock ownership programmes, ESOP. We want to create incentives for employees who are loyal to a start-up company. Amending the ESOP programme would address the issues of both people and finance by promoting strong teams and creating a financial environment that which is conducive to start-up growth. Keeping with the report's emphasis on people and finance, we strongly recommend creating incentives for peer-to-peer lending, as set out in recommendation 58. These programmes build community and capacity, enabling tax-free interest income from loans to start-up businesses that are less than six years old.

As I have said, the Government cannot lead the start-up community but it can help create an environment in which start-ups thrive. Some of these recommendations will be long-term changes while others can be made with a few bold legislative changes in the short term. We need to build on Ireland's positive momentum and gains in the international GEM ratings, while recognising that there is still a long way to go.

Most important, we need to act now. Last week we saw the launch of an exciting entrepreneurial initiative involving a combination of NAMA buildings, venture capital funds, hot desks and potential high-growth start-ups. More initiatives like these will help change our economy and our country. We welcome the Government's initiative in convening the entrepreneurship forum and thank the committee for its time today. We would welcome any questions.

I thank Mr. Sean O'Sullivan for his presentation. As Deputy Seán Kyne has to leave at 2 p.m., does he wish to ask a brief question?

Not at the moment.

I thank Mr. Sean O'Sullivan and the delegation for their work on the report, which provides much food for thought. There is not much in it that the committee would disagree with. There are a few issues on which I wish to focus. One of Mr. O'Sullivan's statistics indicate that only 8% of Irish people have the aspiration to be an entrepreneur, one of the lowest in the world. He has spoken previously about the importance of our education system. One of the recommendations is that an entrepreneurship education strategy be established. What are the key elements of such a strategy? Should it start at primary school or at a higher level? I have a few questions. Shall I put them all together or-----

Mr. Sean O'Sullivan

We can take them all on the education strategy.

Mr. O'Sullivan has mentioned a level of fear, which, I suppose, is related to the first question. Does he think there is a culture here of celebrating failure and, if so, how do we change it? We like to see something that does not work out in sport, in business and in life generally. How do we challenge that? On the issue of finance, Mr. O'Sullivan's proposals on the capital gains tax programme are interesting. Has he costed them and, if so, would there be a benefit to the Exchequer?

Mr. Sean O'Sullivan

Can I hand the question on the education strategy to Professor Tom Cooney from DIT?

Professor Tom Cooney

We have looked at entrepreneurship strategies across a number of European Union countries. A number of EU and OECD reports have recommended that countries should have a national entrepreneurship education strategy. We looked at countries such as Denmark, Finland and Norway, where these already exist. All of these countries have done it at primary, secondary and third level, but also across the different departments, including jobs and enterprise, finance and education. Therefore, the Government, the education sector and the business sector would be involved. We have seen early results from Denmark, which has done longitudinal studies, which show that where students are taking entrepreneurship education, even if they are not starting up businesses, their behaviour in class is stronger and their results are stronger. Even if they do not start up companies eventually, the results through education are much stronger.

In Ireland we have many good initiatives at primary, secondary and third level but we do not have any coherence across those three levels. One could argue that lifelong learning should also be part of that. What is needed is a strategy that co-ordinates all of this activity, that can identify the gaps and that shows where we can build towards the future. We recognise that there are new initiatives within secondary level that aim to include enterprise among the subjects, but it needs to be more co-ordinated and thought-through than what currently exists.

I think people misunderstand entrepreneurship education. Particularly at primary and secondary level, they see entrepreneurship education as being solely about new venture creation, whereas we think it is about being entrepreneurial. Being entrepreneurial is about recognising opportunity, being positive and taking action for the benefit of one's community, local sports club, social club or any activity. The other thing we recognise is that currently there is a strong inclination towards the points system, whereas entrepreneurship education applies to everyone. One's level of education does not matter.

Frequently, this might appeal more to the person who is doing poorly in the points system than to the one doing very well in his subjects. There is a lot happening, but we do not have a co-ordinated approach. Consistent EU and OECD reports have highlighted this as a gap Ireland needs to address and this is the reason it is recommendation No. 1.

Mr. Sean O'Sullivan

To respond to the question on celebrating or recognising failure, it was good to ask whether this is a cultural value or not. When I first came to Ireland, I was invited to be on the board of advisers for a new start-up company and gathered around me was a board of illustrious business leaders. The entrepreneur made a passionate pitch about how he saw the world in a new way. I was sort of flabbergasted after hearing this great ten-minute pitch on this new vision for the world. The business being proposed was the type of business that had been successful in other parts of Europe and the entrepreneur was trying to bring the business to Ireland.

However, the first question asked by one of those around the table was: "Have you looked at where this has failed?" Everyone around the table thought it was a good question and wished they had asked it. I was flabbergasted to be sitting in a boardroom of advisers where the first thing being done, whether consciously or unconsciously, was tearing the idea down. They were looking at failure first. This reminds me of when I was learning to drive. One is supposed to look ahead when driving, but I was looking at what was immediately in front. I was at the edge of a bridge and was looking at the bridge and wondering whether I was going to drive into the water. I was driving the car into the bridge, rather than driving straight ahead. Looking in wrong direction and looking towards failure is a way to get towards failure. We do that a lot as part of our culture.

How can we fix this? A significant amount can be done through peer mentoring and learning. The people who win the game of start-ups are the people who learn the fastest and who accept failure as part of the process. There is a reason for calling our programme Strengthening the Startup Community. By having a real community, we help each other learn. This sounds almost goody-goody. What does learning in community have to do with entrepreneurship and capitalism? They are actually married to each other. We must accept that the business community must be more community orientated and more giving. This is a cultural value we need to continue to refine in Ireland.

The third area asked about was finance and capital gains tax and whether we had costed this. We did not cost this. We understand the Government has tremendous difficulty in raising enough taxes to pay for the debt burden we have as a country. This is the conflict. Do we want to create jobs or do we want to service the debt? I believe we must do both. I do not have a great answer to the question, other than to say that raising the capital gains tax rate either drives businesses out of the country or drives them to devising new strategies to cheat the tax system out of its capital gains tax, which is completely legal here and will be done. In this situation, using tax avoidance schemes means Ireland gets less capital gains tax than it would get if it had a lower capital gains tax. If anyone has other questions on this, I would be glad to enlighten them on how people are being advised by accountants and lawyers in regard to how not to be required to pay capital gains tax in Ireland.

I have worked in the enterprise sector over the years and one thing I have learned is that almost 80% of the people in the sector have a business idea. The majority of these people never act upon their idea because they feel there is a chasm between having an idea and getting to the other side and acting on it. I believe that where the State needs to come in is to ensure that as many of these ideas as possible are captured. It must create a pipeline within society where all of society is orientated towards moving in that direction.

For example, many business people say local authorities are difficult to deal with. We need to work to ensure that local authorities are enterprise orientated. Taxation is also a factor. We have a property bubble in certain parts of the State currently and property is a competitor to enterprise in regard to capital. I agree with what was said in regard to orientating taxes in this regard. On the question of JobBridge, there is a danger this will displace real jobs, just as all grant funding may displace somebody trying to do the right thing. I agree 100% on the need for enterprise to be part of all levels of education. Nobody should leave third level without completing some enterprise component in their course, because most of them will study something that could be commercialised at some level. How can we enterprise proof other parts of society also?

Mr. Sean O'Sullivan

I will tackle the questions raised there and if I miss out on anything, please let me know. The Deputy mentioned that everybody has an idea, but that idea is not always taken to commercialisation. We agree education is a way to bring people closer to that. We have seen this in programmes like "Dragons' Den", a television programme in which I took part. People are starting businesses because of this programme and being inspired to compete in entrepreneurship programmes and competitions that are run across the country by various educational institutions at junior cycle and transition year level. This is very valuable in terms of trying to establish entrepreneurship as an Irish cultural value, but it seems to be a challenge.

I understand that I am an outsider here, because I did not grow up here, but I have heard that Irish moms and dads like to have their kids go to the professions, like law, medicine and other service industries, rather than direct them towards manufacturing or creating employment. Therefore, we must be wary of the cultural value of opting for the safe job, for example, going for a job in the Civil Service or in a multinational because of our belief that these are the best and safest jobs. This is a challenge we need to address, but I do not know how to address it other than by adopting a broad swathe of approaches. I am sure Professor Tom Cooney has some thoughts on this.

Professor Tom Cooney

A number of studies have been carried out by various European organisations on this. EUROSTAT carried out a particular study in which it found out that the attitude of the Irish towards entrepreneurship is strong and positive. However, if it is so strong and positive and if we believe in a culture of entrepreneurship, why are people not starting up their own businesses and why are we getting such poor results from the global entrepreneurship monitor, GEM, studies?

Much of it came down to two things. The risk reward element was not strong enough and therefore if they were going to take the risk, things like capital gains tax, the marginal rate of tax and the fact that if the business failed they could not claim benefit, whereas all the employees could, had to be considered. Those safety nets were not available to them. The stigma of failure was rather strong. Most notable was the perception that access to finance would be rather difficult. There is a significant gap between intention and desire and the ability to start up.

Has any comparative analysis been done with regard to enterprise output by Irish people abroad and enterprise output by Irish people in Ireland? We hear that when Irish people go abroad, to the United States, for example, they have a far more enterprise-orientated outcome. Is there any information on that?

Professor Tom Cooney

Some of that is dictated by the fact that they are immigrants anyway. Let us consider immigrant groups in any country. We are more entrepreneurial when we go abroad and certainly it reflects that we are an entrepreneurial people. However, we should balance that with the fact that any immigrant community will be more entrepreneurial because of block mobility.

Mr. Sean O'Sullivan

Our hope is that we do not send our children abroad for their opportunities but that we grow the opportunities here. That is what creating a successful start-up community is all about. The idea is that we have in place the best opportunity for our sons and daughters to start companies in this climate and, furthermore, that Ireland becomes a beacon for people from throughout the world in the sense that they would come here to start businesses.

The third area that the committee asked about was the area of JobBridge and why we recommend that JobBridge is grown by a factor of ten. The last time I checked there were approximately 5,000 people on the JobBridge programme out of approximately 400,000 on the live register. I imagine the committee members know the numbers better than I do. When I grew up, for several years we were on the welfare system in the United States and therefore I am appreciative of the safety net that I had in those years. However, I am also perfectly aware that no one wants to be in that safety net and that people actually want to have an opportunity to do something rather than simply receive something. For what people get, they also need to do and create. It is not good enough to get a handout and expect more of a handout. If I get a handout then, as a human being, I need to do something in return or in service for that. JobBridge is an opportunity for people who are receiving benefits to work for the benefit of those benefits, not only for the benefit of the benefits but also for the benefit of themselves. It is of help to them to get on the career ladder, to get on the first rung and to have the opportunities to climb up that ladder step by step. From that viewpoint, it is far more objectionable to me, as a past welfare recipient, to be given a benefit without having a job associated with it or to be given a benefit while sitting at home. These can trap me in my environment where I grow to be dependent on the State forever, while a better way is to help me to leverage myself, my talents and my work to try to make an earning for myself and make a contribution to society. It is a mistake to view JobBridge as anything but an approved status for people who are on the live register.

There is a culture of not taking a risk. Parents encourage their children to get a secure job as an accountant or solicitor or whatever. Is there a cultural sense in Ireland in general that for people to become an entrepreneur and to use their imagination, they should do so at the side of having a real job? Is the perception that people should get a safe secure job and then, at night time, develop some other ideas? I have a sense of that from talking to parents. Often, their preference is for their children to get something nailed down and then at the weekends try to use their brain if they want. Is that picked up anywhere?

Mr. Sean O'Sullivan

I will tackle that by talking about the barriers that we are trying to reduce in order that people can find it easier to jump straight into creating jobs rather than simply having a job. One of these is the need to create co-working centres. Perhaps Mr. Ramamoorthy will discuss that in a moment. The idea is to create and promote accelerated programmes, which are ways that people can start companies, get some mentorship and backing, get off the ground and, from the get-go, have some experience of the development of business creation. There are many benefits to co-working centres. Perhaps Mr. Ramamoorthy will cover that briefly.

Mr. Daniel Ramamoorthy

One of the things referred to in the report at the start and mirrored all the way through is the recognition that the Government has done a good deal. The question for the future is what the community can do to move things forward. One of the things that has been mentioned is co-working spaces. Many characteristics have been highlighted, including peer-to-peer mentoring, the office hours, learning from each other and the culture of not fearing failure or not trying something new. All these can be tackled organically at the grassroots from a bottom-up rather than a top-down approach. A bottom-up approach in this sense could be a co-working space because it is an environment led by entrepreneurs for entrepreneurs and with entrepreneurs. It is a simple concept and it has worked well throughout the globe. Currently, there are approximately 2,500 co-working spaces but there are few, if any, in Ireland. These 2,500 co-working spaces have emerged in the past three years; there has been an unprecedented growth. A co-working space is a big space - approximately 10,000 sq. ft would be the average but some can be smaller or larger - where entrepreneurs come together.

Some maintain that too many resources are available and that one of the issues is the navigation of resources. There have been conversations from departments about whether we should create a portal or website and I have been part of some of those conversations. The thing about such an environment is that there is a better chance I will call someone else who is an entrepreneur and who has done something and ask him how he did it rather than go to a government website. Again, a co-working space is another beacon that helps to navigate people.

Many of our proposals and recommendations come back to what entrepreneurs and the start-up community in Ireland can do to accelerate the process. The idea of co-working spaces is among the ideas and it addresses one of the problems. If my child wants to be a doctor, I might take him to a hospital and show him what a hospital does. If my child wants to be an engineer, I might show him a building or a bridge. If my child wishes to be an entrepreneur, at this stage, I might show him a loner sitting in Starbucks or the newspaper headline relating to a failed entrepreneur. On the other hand, if I bring him to a co-working space he could see a lively vibrant hot-spot which is how it has been described. Then, all of a sudden, it inspires in students and children a sense that they can do it, that others have done it and that the path has been paved.

I thank Mr. O'Sullivan and his team for the report. I agree with all or much of it. The area I was struck by was education. We have heard before that we need an entrepreneurial strategy throughout our system. I am pleased that the deputation put it as the No. 1 recommendation because we need to turn our education system on its head.

I have been at parent teacher meetings and seen big queues for the teachers of English, Irish, mathematics and business studies but no one goes for the sciences or computer science. If the students are not getting encouragement at home, then when it comes to filling out their CAO form, they do not get it.

The committee heard an interesting presentation last week in the Bank of Ireland enterprise centre at the end Grafton Street by James Whelton. CoderDojo is a familiar name to all of us at this stage. I heard him speaking. I suppose I should have known it already but he talked about his points in his leaving certificate and said the system did not suit him at all. Yet now, he has been named as one of the top 30 in the world by the Forbes young entrepreneur council. It is a sign for all of us that our education system is simply not matching the needs or bringing them out. We need to bring change through our education system and it is important to start from a young age. Young people should be given a can-do attitude. This should apply even if it is a matter of young children who set up shop outside their front gate selling home-made cakes or whatever. This is what it is about: turning a few bob. I agree entirely with that.

Reference was made to commercialisation of research, a topic that comes up often.

The Minister of State with responsibility for this area, Deputy Sean Sherlock, refers to the technology transfer offices. What more can be done in that area? The amount of money to be spent there comes up constantly. What will we do with that money in Horizon 2020, the EU research project? Will we put it in the right place or just feed it to the researchers and not bring it out?

Mr. Sean O'Sullivan

The Senator is pointing to one of the central problems in terms of return on investment. We have invested billions of euro in our research institutions, which have created great scientists and students who have gone on to get their Masters degrees and Ph.Ds and have often left the country or returned to their home countries without commercialising the benefits of this massive investment. We need to have a much higher expectation of what we should get from the technology transfer offices. It should not be a case of licensing technology, which often holds it back but of liberating the technology they create. They should not be measured by royalty income as they are now, and on which they are doing abysmally. They spend three times as much on the administration of the offices for technology licensing as on the licences granted, or on the royalties received from those offices. Rather than measure those statistics we should measure the effectiveness of these organisations by numbers of jobs created. Let the university participate in a job creation scheme and be paid for every job that is created from a technology that is licensed rather than on a royalty basis.

In many ways there is a fear that if all these taxpayer dollars go into all this research work, we cannot let it out but if we do not let it out it will end up being squandered, as to a great degree, unfortunately, it has been. It is too difficult to work a licensing agreement with a university in Ireland and I would advise that we liberate our technology through technology liberation offices rather than technology licensing offices.

Does Mr. O’Sullivan think the criteria should change?

Mr. Sean O'Sullivan

Yes.

Who is responsible for that, Science Foundation Ireland or Enterprise Ireland?

Mr. Sean O'Sullivan

I do not know what needs to change. I have pointed out to all the powers that be that something needs to change. The change needs to come from within. We should get a greater return on that investment. The single recommendation we have here is that every student, at every level in science, technology, engineering and mathematics, STEM, education should take a commercialisation course. That would lead us down that path because there is not enough orientation towards commercialisation by the students. Instead, there is a thought that if we create the great technology somebody will license it from us. That is not really how it works. They need to spin that out of the university then leave their day jobs and go to work for that new company. That is generally what happens in successful commercialisation operations.

Professor Tom Cooney

I would like to pick up on a couple of points. I agree with Mr. O’Sullivan’s comment about STEM students. I teach entrepreneurship, primarily to business students. I have said for many years we are teaching the wrong students. I usually say “don’t quote me on this” but cannot say it today because I will be quoted. We should be teaching entrepreneurship to STEM students because they are the ones with the cutting edge. As a country we do not need more entrepreneurship, we need more innovative entrepreneurship that is cutting edge and internationally orientated. That is more likely to come from the STEM students than from business students. Business students have a role to play but the cutting edge work comes from the STEM students. Entrepreneurship should cut across all faculties in our educational institutions at higher level. There are very good examples of that in Northern Ireland where all faculties receive entrepreneurship education, particularly in Queen’s University.

The rewards system is based on publications and citations which poses another challenge. To be a professor depends on how many articles one has published. That is the primary mechanism. If patents, licences, outputs and commercialisation were recognised that would help push people in that direction.

The Irish Research Council has an excellent programme called the enterprise partnership scheme under which students do one third of their PhDs in university and two-thirds in an enterprise. That has been very successful in transferring technology from PhD-level research into company activity. There are other examples of that, such as the employment partnership scheme, under which working together on research, not only in the laboratory but also in the company helps to build those bridges. Those are three areas where we could take immediate action to bridge the gap in commercialisation.

I thank all the witnesses for their work on this subject, which is long overdue. Mr. O’Sullivan knows that I have been interested in this area for quite a while. I agree that it must start with education policy. The witnesses are familiar with the secondary school programme run by Jerry Kennelly in Tralee. That should have become a national programme but it needs to start at an earlier age, right at the beginning. There have been some inroads into that but not enough.

If there is to be a success story from the Celtic tiger years it will be that our attitude to failure might change. It has cost us a fortune. Let us hope that it might change. We have to change. The attitude is appalling. I have seen over and over how, when businesses fail, the people involved are mortified and feel they cannot put their heads above the parapet.

While I agree with Mr. O’Sullivan about mentoring, he knows I have different views because I think we need State support in that too. It needs to be done differently and with closed connected platforms where mentors can share information because the information is not captured. No value has been placed on the mentoring done here for several years. That is a big problem. We pay approximately €8.5 million to mentors, apart from the cost of delivering the mentoring programme. We paid €23.5 million to what were local enterprise offices and much of their work was to deliver mentoring but we have no report to say how much of that converted into jobs. We need to change our approach. That is ongoing following a recent report on Forfás initiated by this committee. We hope to see some changes in this area.

In last year’s budget capital gains tax was reduced to 16.5% for entrepreneurs.

Mr. Sean O'Sullivan

One has to jump through a convoluted set of hoops in order for that to feed through.

We need to change that.

Mr. Sean O'Sullivan

Yes. That is the OECD average. We should be at 16.5%. One could also argue that the capital gains tax in most developed countries is no higher than half the highest rate of income tax. If income tax is 52%, the highest possible capital gains tax would be 26% but ours is at 33%. We have violated international standards for the high point for capital gains tax. The 16.5% rate is great for start-up businesses.

It is not easy. I understand people think the policy in place covers this, but there are so many hoops to be jumped through it is too complicated for them to understand. Not only is it too difficult for them to understand, it is also too difficult to implement.

It needs to be simplified.

Mr. Sean O'Sullivan

Exactly.

The rollover of relief needs to be included.

Mr. Sean O'Sullivan

It also needs to be broader because it only applies in certain circumstances. I understand the intent because I made that recommendation to several people who thought it was being addressed, but it was not executed in a way that could be used. I alert committee members to what accountants and others are advising. No one wants to pay capital gains tax of 33.3% in Ireland - it would be insane to do so. Instead, a company is set up in the United Kingdom which owns the Irish company; it pays capital gains tax of 10% in the United Kingdom and Ireland receives nil when the company is sold. This is called arbitrage. When really high tax rates are created, they drive people to avail of arbitrage. That said, it is legal to do this in the European Union, with the result that a lower amount in capital gains tax will be collected here as a result of having the higher rate of capital gains tax. We should be aware that this should be changed or else the rate of collection will be even lower than we think.

That is an interesting point. I was not aware of that blockage, but we can look at it. The seed capital scheme has never worked because it is too difficult. That is another system that has been in place for years. Even when there was money around, people were not using the scheme because it was too onerous to activate it. A person needed the money to invest in shares before it could be drawn back. That can take time and even to get the money is an onerous task for a small business.

Mr. Sean O'Sullivan

Exactly. We are making some recommendations in this regard.

Ms Wendy Gray

Some of them are capital gains which are reinvested and so on.

Mr. Sean O'Sullivan

It is hoped that would simplify the process and make it much easier for people to tap into it. The take-up has been abysmally low, at 25 or 50 people a year.

Ms Wendy Gray

Fifty people in the case of the seed capital scheme.

Another proposal would be that any tax back be invested in shares in order that a business would not have to find the money on the first day to invest in the shares and then draw back the tax, which could take quite a while. The issue with the EIS is similar in that it is too onerous a task. If we are serious about trying to fill that gap, what we should really do is let people invest in a business, have it approved by the State and then grant tax relief. We will try to push that proposal on our side of the House.

Ten years ago no female entrepreneur was given maternity leave. I must give credit to Fianna Fáil because it introduced maternity leave for the self-employed about nine years ago. I attended an event recently in connection with the Tús programme, under which unemployed people were directed to work in a particular area. Even though they found it challenging at the beginning, the biggest advantage was the boost in self-confidence given to the participants. After six or eight months they wanted the programme to be extended to two years. Even though the money they received did not really change - they received an extra €20 a week - I emphasise the importance of this programme and agree with Mr. O'Sullivan. Everybody thinks the money is important - it is - but the sense of self-worth and the contribution to the community, even if it is only through a social enterprise project, are very important.

Mr. Sean O'Sullivan

More than that, it is a real stepping stone for people's careers because many of the companies involved, especially in the technological sector, train the participants for six to eight months and they are then hired, even before they finish the JobBridge programme term.

It has been very successful.

Mr. Sean O'Sullivan

It is a terrific way to train people and the employer does not have to take too much of a risk. The people concerned prove they can do the work and then stay in employment.

It is at a low cost to the employer initially because it can be very expensive otherwise.

Mr. Sean O'Sullivan

Absolutely.

The Tús programme deals with people who may have never received work experience or do not have a third level education. They were traditionally builders or tradesmen. They were happy to become involved in community projects to keep up their skills to be ready to re-enter employment.

The commercialisation of technology is a significant problem and has involved an expenditure of €20 billion in recent years. The committee has highlighted the fact that only an educational institution in Ireland can draw down EU funding. This is the only OECD country where this is an issue. If a person were to set up as an approved research and technical organisation, he or she should be permitted to draw down funding. Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland have been involved in a successful pilot project in this regard which has brought together multinationals and small businesses. The problem is that in order to draw down funding, these projects must be attached to a university and there are the issues about ownership of the patent. There is no such issue in Canada. Mr. O'Sullivan will be familiar with the situation in MIT in Boston which did away with it ten years ago. It stated it was storing its shelves and not commercialising information. We need to address this issue. There is a place for intensive research in colleges and institutions, but there is also a place for collaboration with industry in order to commercialise technology. We are losing multinational companies to Israel and other places where it is easier to do this. Colleges are trying to put in place onerous licensing agreements. I know of a multinational in my constituency which developed an idea over 18 months. It was told by the college that research would take 18 months. We need to address this issue. The report concluded that the Government needed to fill the gaps in that there was a lot of information but it was difficult for people to find it.

I refer to the paper Mr. O'Sullivan sent to the joint committee. I have no particular training in economics, but I find the paper very accessible and understandable.

Mr. Sean O'Sullivan

I thank the Deputy.

It is very enlightening. I suggest Mr. O'Sullivan write some more papers for us.

Mr. Sean O'Sullivan

I am glad that it was readable. It took a lot of effort.

In general, economists tend to make things difficult rather than easy to understand for lay people. Are Mr. O'Sullivan's suggestions a menu or passport for countries at a point in their ordinary economic development, whereas Ireland lost its economic anchorage and international economic credibility? Is this formula applicable to such a country or economy? I ask Mr. O'Sullivan to comment on how he thinks Ireland is restoring itself and recovering from the disease it encountered. Many years ago I worked in England with young guys who had left school at 14 years. We were building roads and tunnels. Many of those concerned are now heading up very successful and large companies in Britain. They never had access to practical supports such as advice and guidance. There must be some other indefinable human characteristics that motivate and drive people and are important in turning them into entrepreneurs. I have often thought about this because I know they never sat down with anyone to be given advice and support because they were not available at the time, yet they emerged as very successful entrepreneurs.

Obviously, there is also something else to the equation. Is Mr. O'Sullivan in a position to identify that or suggest what it might be?

Mr. Sean O'Sullivan

I will respond to the second question first. I have a son and a daughter. My daughter has had the same personality since she emerged from the womb and we call her the "master commander". She is the ruler of all things. I think there probably is something with which people are born. My son is a completely different and wonderfully laid-back individual. People are almost born into their personalities. It is not a man versus woman thing or whether one is upper class or lower class. It is just something we are born with. It is a human condition element - one of those indefinable human characteristics - which makes somebody an entrepreneur. There are some aspects of that which are innate. I am of the view that those aspects can either be suppressed or celebrated by a society or a culture. I am also of the view that we can accentuate and expand our entrepreneurial culture and that all can benefit from this.

The individuals to whom I refer would not have got the same opportunity in this country. The external opportunity to which I refer assisted in drawing out what I believe to be instinctive characteristics.

Mr. Sean O'Sullivan

The Irish are very entrepreneurial people and they possess incredible innate skills in the context of their ability to sell, communicate, invent and think outside the box. I do not believe there is anything culturally that is difficult about Ireland but, in the context of the systems that currently exist here, we are not tapping as much of our entrepreneurship capability as should be the case.

Mr. Daniel Ramamoorthy

A couple of friends of mine wrote a book entitled The Misfit Economy in which they wrote about entrepreneurs who are outside the description of what constitutes an entrepreneur in the typical business sense. For example, pirates and slum dwellers are also entrepreneurs. In many ways the obstacles define the entrepreneur. It is arguable that if the obstacles were not there, they might cease to be entrepreneurs. There is a sense that they thrive on the obstacles. Having said that, some obstacles can sometimes suppress entrepreneurship. With our recommendations we are trying to recognise the value that entrepreneurs provide to an economy. It is not so much about supplying a crutch for the week but rather it relates to recognising what entrepreneurs provide to the economy through job creation and media attention. Consider the web summit and the international media attention that one event attracts. As everybody knows, it was an entrepreneur who initiated the summit. The recommendations are designed not to make it overly easy to start a business, rather they are aimed at recognising that entrepreneurs have something to offer. That is really the framework within which we put forward the recommendations.

That is really my two cents' worth on the matter. I agree with the Deputy that, arguably, entrepreneurs in the past had fewer resources available to them than is now the case. Having said that, the country has a track record in doing a great deal to make things better for entrepreneurs, to recognise what they do and to provide them with more opportunities.

Will Mr. O'Sullivan comment on how Ireland is faring in its recovery from the "disease" of the economic collapse?

Mr. Sean O'Sullivan

Greed is a worldwide phenomenon. Hopefully, we are more appreciative of what we have. I cannot really speak to the social aspects other than to recognise that the necessity created by difficult circumstances actually gives rise to great opportunities for great businesses to emerge. The people who are down and out now as a result of circumstances and the problems they are currently suffering or which they may have suffered in the past may soon be leading the country. Every journey is tempered by fire. We would hope that the times and the fire we have been through will create a better grade of steel at the end of the journey.

I welcome our guests. I have known Professor Cooney for many years. I am delighted to hear about the efforts he is making. When I finished by studies in commerce in college and went into business, I met the dean of the faculty of commerce from the institution I attended in one of my stores. He asked what I was doing there and I replied that it was one of my shops. He said "Isn't it wonderful that one of my students actually went into business".

The reason I say this is that in the past there was a tradition that one did not go into business. If, like me, one had a third level education, one went on to do something else. The vast majority of those who attended college with me became accountants or teachers. I am enthusiastic about getting the message in respect of this matter across at the earliest possible opportunity. Young people aged between 14 to 17 in the United States expect to go into business. It might only be working in McDonalds or wherever but they expect to look after customers.

In their very readable document, our guests touch on access to finance and refer to crowd funding. I would like to obtain their views on the latter. Last week the committee met some individuals who are involved in crowd funding. Is there something we can do to encourage the involvement of the public - and not just Government - in providing finance? The matter about which we have not learned a great deal about is how we manage to obtain that finance. Retail is probably an area in which people can become involved much more easily than, for example, manufacture or whatever. The State does not appear to do enough to encourage competition in the area of retail. One of the most important lessons we must teach the Government is that sometimes a lower rate of tax actually gives one more money. Any grocer knows that if he reduces his prices, he will attract many more customers. I do not believe the Government understands that the tax rate can be reduced and that the State will bring even more money in. We have a job to do but we are not very good at getting our message across in respect of it.

Mr. Sean O'Sullivan

Primarily, the best hope for an entrepreneur, in terms of access to customers, is to get customers to love his or her product and to pay for it. Aside from funding from family and friends, the primary source of funding for the most successful entrepreneurs comes in the form of customer revenue. We can overemphasise finance and many entrepreneurs actually spend the first year actually seeking funding for their business rather than actually delivering something which is so valuable to a customer that he or she will want to pay for it. Even if the entrepreneur is barely scraping by, if he or she gets enough money from that customer he or she will be able to start his or her business. Crowd funding is a way to do that. Programmes such as Kickstarter and Indiegogo are Internet sensations in the context of facilitating customer funding of businesses. They are phenomenally successful ways for entrepreneurs to use technology to reach customers directly. Those streams are good. We also recommend a crowd-funding initiative whereby people can loan capital to businesses and avail of an exemption. As a result, money which is currently lying under the mattress or sitting in a bank account and attracting interest at a rate of 2% or even 0% can be put to use in funding a company.

We think that type of funding is also helpful. Those are areas that technology has innovated and created new opportunities for entrepreneurs to find access to capital more rapidly.

Second, the Deputy talked about reducing taxes. To me, this is about reducing barriers as well, reducing paperwork, the complexity of types of documents and funding and there being almost a hundred different types of VAT. I recently noted from a hotel bill that the hotel had five different rates of tax - 9%,11.5%, 13%,17% or 21% or 22% of whatever the rate was for the different items the hotel sold, whether it was for something sold in the restaurant or for something else. There are elements that are needlessly complex that are constructed with all good intent but it would be simpler to have less complexity around them and less complexity around aspects that help start-up companies get started, such as leases. Why do commercial leases in Ireland seem to require lawyers to get involved? That is nuts. Why is that so often necessary? With co-working centres we would cut out all that. One would show up and get a desk. These are ways to accelerate the first stages of start-up of a company. These are measures we are trying to recommend as "best in class" ways of trying to get around the barriers the Deputy pointed out. Does anyone else have any further responses or questions on that?

On the area of finance, Mr. O'Sullivan had very strong things to say about the practice of banks looking for personal guarantees from entrepreneurs. He said this is outrageous and that Irish banks should begin to follow international standards on this issue rather than continue with this current backwater behaviour. Has he had any response to that from the Central Bank-----

We will blame the banks.

-----or the banks, or the Department of Finance since the report was published?

Mr. Sean O'Sullivan

No, I have not. No one has taken notice of that. It is very unfortunate that this is a common practice in Ireland, which is a small country with a population of 4.5 million. If we had twice, or three or four times the population, as would be expected in a country of this geographic reach, we would probably have much more competition and that would probably eliminate bad practice, but without that competition there is no threat of such bad practice being eliminated. I would like the Central Bank to go further than it has. It has already said that it is a bad idea but that has not changed the practice of requiring personal guarantees under circumstances which no international bank or international standards would require. If a company is profitable and has been in operation for years, why should its executives or founders still be required to have personal guarantees? It is not a standard business practice; it is odd and it is offensive.

I have a few questions. I know this is not Government policy but it is a recommendation and part of our job is to provide a forum to air it and to adopt the parts of it we believe in and push them through as a committee. Mr. Daniel Ramamoorthy mentioned co-working spaces and that practice is in operation in the voluntary sector where centres have been set up in a few places. People share the space and use hot desks and it works out very well. We have had a big problem in many of our town centres around the country and they would be ideal places to locate co-working places or centres for enterprise or entrepreneurs to revitalise town centres. That is an idea we could examine as a possible solution to other problems as well and we should do that.

We talked about the failure rate in businesses earlier. In Ireland, we often celebrate failure but, apart from that, some of us are nearly afraid of it. At the first meeting I attended of an enterprise board, which will now become a local enterprise office, the annual accounts were being reviewed and the chief executive officer at the time was celebrating that the success rate of 97% was so high. I was new to the board and I said that I had a problem with that. There was something wrong because the failure rate was too low, yet all the board members were delighted that it was so low, but that was a mistake. How do we change the culture, through Government agencies and bodies, of what is an acceptable failure rate? If it is too low, there is something wrong and if it too high, it is taxpayers' money that is involved. We need to change the culture whereby it is fine to have a healthy percentage of failures, or else enterprises will not get a chance to develop. Sometimes when one watches episodes of "Dragons' Den" one would get depressed - we should give those entrepreneurs a chance and throw them a few euro. If we do not give entrepreneurs a chance, we will not have enough enterprises. When it comes to spending taxpayers' money, that is a culture we have to change because people working for Government are often afraid to spend the money in such a way because they have to answer for it. That culture needs to change. I would like to hear Mr. O'Sullivan's thoughts on that.

I was delighted that the group's report recommended the JobBridge initiative and I think it was said that it could be increased tenfold. I understand that some people have a concern about it. It does not work perfectly in every situation and it will be abused. It is similar to every scheme in that there will be abuse of it. We cannot, however, stop introducing good initiatives because of that. In the context of reconsidering any of these policies, I presume the group will be engaged in ongoing work here, and I hope it will, during our review of youth unemployment. The part-time jobs initiative that was in place in the early 1990s was mentioned on a number of occasions. Under that initiative, the recipient could use the money they got from the State, their social welfare benefit payment, and work for ten, 11 or 12 hours or whatever period of hours their benefit payment covered in terms of the going rate for the job concerned. If they worked as an engineer in the local county council and the going rate was €20, they would have worked for ten hours for their social welfare payment. No one could have accused them of being paid below the going rate. That is another such scheme we could consider because it got people back to work. It might be a solution to give people part-time jobs throughout the public service to get them back to work and they could also be trained. That is another initiative we should consider. I would like to hear Mr. O'Sullivan's thoughts on that also.

Mr. O'Sullivan specifically mentioned a youth fund and I think he said that the local enterprise offices and the micro-enterprise scheme should consider setting aside a certain amount of money for youth entrepreneurs. Could he elaborate on that? It is a subject we discuss a good deal at this committee, namely, specifically setting money aside to be targeted directly at that age group.

There is reference in the report to protection for the self-employed and that those who take the risk often felt that the State does not help. In fairness, social welfare benefit is available to a household that has no other income but if one is living with a partner who has a job, a self-employed person will not get any help in terms of social welfare. That is a deterrent because people feel there is no safety net for their families or themselves. What does Mr. O'Sullivan think we should do to improve that or how quick should bring in a measure in that respect?

There was a good deal of reference to community involvement and I presume Mr. O'Sullivan would welcome social enterprise and that all these initiatives should be available to social entrepreneurs. If I am wrong on that, he can correct me.

Mr. O'Sullivan's group said that we should move to a mentoring model, with 80% unpaid and 20% paid. I can see the benefits in that and I would nearly agree with it. This goes back to sport where many clubs have a coach and a trainer. I used to argue in my club 20 years ago when we only had a trainer that we should also have a coach. Any of the great clubs now have both. Do enterprises need a business coach who would go through the basics of running a business and also a mentor who will reflect the entrepreneurial spirit and bring in the drive that is needed in the enterprise? Many businesses have an idea but do not have the know-how of the basics of running a business, employment law and managing the accounts, and that might not be the job for the mentor or vice versa. Perhaps there is room for both, or does Mr. O'Sullivan believe that such free mentoring should cover all that? Many enterprises have a great idea and the business but do not know how to run a business and that can be a problem as well. I would like to hear Mr. O'Sullivan's thoughts on that.

Mr. Sean O'Sullivan

I will respond to the last issue raised first. In respect of mentoring and 80% being unpaid and 20% being paid, I use that percentage because it seems that the State's current preference is the other way, with 80% being funded and 20% being done on a volunteer basis. I think we should turn the tables on that. The entrepreneur who succeeds is the entrepreneur who learns the fastest. The people who know how to teach an entrepreneur how to succeed in business are not necessarily those in the mentoring community but other entrepreneurs. The other entrepreneurs do not have a great deal of time to help on this but they do so anyway.

There are organisations such as the Entrepreneurs' Organisation Ireland, EO, Techpreneurs and other organisations. As I mentioned, there is the officehours.ie website, to which hundreds of entrepreneurs will be signed up by the end of the year, offering thousands of hours a month in free mentoring. We hope to rejuvenate that atmosphere of volunteerism, which is so prevalent in other aspects of Irish life such as sports coaching and so on but is not as prevalent in business coaching. To change the scale of learning we need to have a huge number of committed mentors and peer mentoring relationships. Enterprise Ireland does some programmes where they send a group of chief executive officers, CEOs, to an executive MBA programme or whatever but following that they still have a peer mentoring network, which is unpaid, where the CEOs meet and talk to each other every so often. Those types of initiatives do not cost any money and are highly effective. That is what we mean when we talk about developing the start-up community. There is a cook book on how to do this, and it is referred to a few times in this report. It is called Startup Communities, by Brad Feld, and is an excellent resource for how to develop all the attributes of a successful, vibrant start-up community, and a big part of that is the mentoring. I wanted to speak to mentoring as a major issue.

The Chairman mentioned social enterprise initiatives. As he knows, I am a big supporter of many initiatives including CoderDojo, MATHletes and other initiatives in Ireland. Those are great, but I was a little confused about the Chairman's question. Is he saying we should be employing people in a JobBridge like programme to support social entrepreneurship?

The point is that on social enterprise, people who come before this committee say they should have access to many of the supports available to other enterprises. A social entrepreneur does not feel welcome in an enterprise board. They do not feel they are entitled to supports yet they will create jobs. They have an innovative idea. Does Mr. O'Sullivan have a view on that?

Mr. Sean O'Sullivan

I do not care as long as it is creating jobs.

That is what I thought.

Mr. Sean O'Sullivan

As long as it is creating jobs it does not make any difference. I think that is terrific. My mom worked for Catholic charities and she created 3,000 jobs. It was unbelievable. She was a single mother raising nine children, and she created the Home Help Aids network in upstate New York, which served millions of hours of services for people stuck at home. That is a great social enterprise. We should try to get people who are sitting at home and not working to do something that will help benefit this society in any way. There is tremendous wastefulness in this country. Some 14% of our brothers and sisters are sitting at home not working. That is a tragedy and we need to try to accommodate ways that they can be productive members of society. That improves our gross national product but it also improves our gross national well-being and psycho-social state.

Professor Tom Cooney

If I may make a point of information before Mr. O'Sullivan continues, a major challenge for social enterprise is that if one creates a social business, there is nowhere to register it. I had a number of queries recently from people in the Liberties and elsewhere in Dublin, and even beyond Dublin, about setting up a network. They might have a small business in a neighbourhood and they want to know what they should register as in terms of legal status. They do not want to register as a company because it is too complicated. They might be a not for profit charity but they have to go through the Revenue process for that. It is not a co-operative, and they are not self-employed. There is a difficulty in that there is nowhere for them to get a legal status.

The United Kingdom developed the community interest company, which appears to be solving that problem. We have examined it here but we need to examine it more closely.

Professor Tom Cooney

The other suggestion I would make, and this is a personal opinion, is that there should be one central point where businesses of whatever nature, be it a limited company, a person who is self-employed, a co-operative, a friendly society or a charitable, not for profit organisation can get registered. Whatever their status there should be one central location where they can register and state they are starting their business from a particular date. They will then have legal status and a position. In that way they can seek to open an account in a bank. Their lives become much easier when they have a status. I add that as a point of information.

The Companies Registration Office, CRO, provides that service. If people are sole traders they have to register their own business name. If they have a partnership they can register as a business partnership and they get a number. The same applies if one is a company or a company limited by guarantee. Obviously, if one gets charged for status that is a Revenue issue but the CRO provides that service.

Professor Tom Cooney

It does not provide a complete service. One does not get to register as a social enterprise, for example.

No. That is not yet available in Irish law. We need to change that.

Professor Tom Cooney

If I want to find the statistics on the breakdown of companies, businesses or organisations under each category I must go to multiple sources to piece it together. Currently, I cannot go to any central location to find out, under specific categories, the number of businesses that currently operate. We do not officially know the number of businesses operating in this country. We can put together close estimates but we cannot put together an exact figure.

If there was one central location it would help in terms of where those businesses are being set up. For example, we could have county leagues to see the number of entrepreneurial companies operating in counties. We could see how companies have grown by county over periods. There is so much we could do and learn if we had one central location but that does not exist currently.

I would have thought the CRO was the closest one.

Professor Tom Cooney

It is the closest-----

The issue is that for years prior to that sole traders did not have to register. It has only come in in the past ten to 15 years.

Professor Tom Cooney

It is the closest but one still must go to multiple locations.

We will check it out.

Mr. Sean O'Sullivan

The Chairman also asked about the going rate in the part-time jobs initiative, which I guess was a programme in the 1990s. I am not familiar with that programme. It sounds as if it was getting towards the place I was recommending in terms of giving dignity to people to work in exchange for the benefit.

The Chairman asked another question about the youth fund. I will ask Ms Wendy Gray to respond to that.

Ms Wendy Gray

The youth fund is based on the premise that targeted supports at untapped potential within society can be very effective in the way that the female entrepreneurship push from Enterprise Ireland has been hugely successful in drawing out many female entrepreneurs to access State supports. The State supports are available anyway but there are certain cohorts of people who do not access them. The idea is to have a targeted and tailored set of supports for youth involving various workshops that would be held on business planning, developing marketing skills, sales, IT and the range of skills required by entrepreneurs. They would eventually go on to be supported in terms of either doing a bank loan application, getting grant funding from the local enterprise offices, LEOs, Bord Fáilte, Enterprise Ireland or Microfinance Ireland. Microfinance Ireland would team up with them because as they are start-up companies they may not qualify for bank lending, therefore, they would get a microfinance loan of less than €25,000 to start the business.

The other angle is that after they have received the loan they should continue to get ongoing mentoring from the LEOs. It is a questioning of targeting State support to drive more youth entrepreneurship and to give them the soft supports.

Mr. Sean O'Sullivan

We also talked about the failure rate. As venture capitalists, we do not tend to look for more than 30% or 40% of firms to succeed, even with the substantial level of funding we give them. I agree with the Chairman's point that while a success rate of 97% sounds like it is a success, one must ask how truly successful it is. We are not averse to failure because we know that if we try to reach for the mountain, rather than for the molehill, we can create great things that have much bigger impact on changing the world.

Do members have any other comments or questions? They are happy enough. I thank the witnesses for attending today's meeting. It was great to receive their report. I thank them for their work. Mr. O'Sullivan has been here before. He has achieved great results. Members might not realise that he was behind bringing CoderDojo to this committee in 2011. It has gone on to great things. I appreciate the effort our guests made to come to this meeting. I know they are doing great work. This committee will do anything it can to try to drive this document forward. I presume the witnesses will come forward with more stuff like this as the years go by. We will keep an eye on that as well. I thank them again for coming here today.

Mr. Sean O'Sullivan

Very good. I thank the committee.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.11 p.m. until 5.15 p.m. on Tuesday, 4 March 2014.
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