Joint Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation debate -
Tuesday, 16 Sep 2014

Review of Vote 32: Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation

Chairman

I remind members and those in the Visitors Gallery to please ensure their mobile phones are switched off for the duration of the meeting as they interfere with the broadcasting equipment, even when left in silent mode.

As we will hold a private meeting next week to discuss our work programme up to the recess in December, as well as other matters, I propose that we defer our private session until then. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The purpose of today's meeting is to engage with the Minister in a review of Vote 32 - Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation for the year ending 31 December 2014. I welcome the Minister, Deputy Richard Bruton, and the Minister of State at the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation with responsibility for skills, research and innovation, Deputy Damien English. It is a special welcome for Deputy English as he is attending the meeting in a different capacity today.

Minister of State at the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation (Deputy Damien English)

It is a change.

Chairman

I also welcome the officials from the Department and thank them for the briefing material supplied to the committee. A timetable for today's meeting has been circulated. It provides for a brief opening statement by the Minister and a discussion on the review of Vote 32, with questions on each programme in sequence. I will call the individual sub-programmes in turn, A3 to A16, B3 to B8, C1 to C16, and invite questions on the sub-programme. Questions or points about the programme generally can be put after we have gone through the individual sub-programmes. When all programmes have been considered, the committee will consider the appropriations-in-aid information presented and then administrative expenditure generally.

I invite the Minister, Deputy Bruton, to make a brief opening statement.

Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation (Deputy Richard Bruton)

First, I congratulate you, a Chathaoirligh, on your appointment and wish you well. The committee has been very ably guided in recent times by Deputy English and I know you will continue that. The committee has been extraordinarily constructive in its approach. We might not share what the solutions are in all cases, but there is certainly a shared view that we must transition the economy from where we found it in each sector and grow new sectors that are strong and sustainable. The main headings under which our Department operates - jobs, enterprise, innovation and regulation - are all designed to create quality job opportunities and to build long-term competitive advantage on the basis of high quality of work, good working environments and good quality products and services. That is what drives us.

We have used the Action Plan for Jobs as a way of seeking to embrace wider Government Departments as well as our own Department and agencies to focus on the employment challenge. That has been successful. There is a genuine focus, driven from the Taoiseach's office, on delivering in this area. It is heartening that we are seeing good signs of progress. We have now gone through seven quarters in a row in which there has been net jobs growth and the number on the live register has fallen for more that 24 months in a row. We are making progress and there is a reduction in the levels of emigration. However, I am acutely conscious that unemployment at 11.2% and emigration at 21,000 net are still at high figures, which indicates that we have a long way to go. Our effort is to continually sweat the assets we have in the different areas to try to deliver more.

Both of the Department's agencies, the Industrial Development Agency, IDA, and Enterprise Ireland, EI, had a record year last year in terms of net job growth, and they look set to continue that. The year to date figures for both agencies are very encouraging. It will be of interest to the committee to see there is an encouraging sign within the IDA folder that there is a better regional spread, which has been a concern of committee members.

With regard to the newly established local enterprise offices, LEOs, we will shortly publish an entrepreneurship strategy. Like many members of the committee, I believe we must nurture a strong entrepreneurial capability within our communities. The LEOs with their new mandate will be at the heart of that. It is encouraging to see signs of a renewed and fresh interest among people in setting up their own businesses and I hope we will be in a position to cater for that. Interestingly, and Deputy Lawlor has mentioned this on numerous occasions, this year we had a competition to find the best young entrepreneur on a county, regional and national basis and there has been a very strong response. We will be investing in those who hit the high quality standards.

Last year we targeted women entrepreneurs, who were under-represented, as well as youth entrepreneurs, and there is scope for us to build a stronger capacity for starting new enterprises, seeing them survive difficult periods and grow to scale. That will be important.

With regard to overall competitiveness, it is again encouraging to see that we are continuing to improve in international rankings. That is very much part of what we need to deliver. We have become a more competitive environment, which definitely helps when one is looking to get into boardrooms and compete against many other countries for mobile investment. Being able to point to the progress we are making in many areas is very important. The message is clear that if we want to continue this progress, it is important that we sustain the focus on competitiveness. We will continue to participate at the European level, where we touch upon several councils, including the research council and the industry or competitiveness council. We also work with the employment council, as well as several others. There are opportunities coming from those global programmes run by the European Union, and the Minister of State, Deputy English, will no doubt deal with our ambitions relating to Horizon 2020, the single biggest source of European support that can be won for enterprises in Ireland.

We have also continued to undertake structural reform, and I again express appreciation to the committee for its support in facilitating the passage of the new competition and consumer commission. It is an important consolidation and the workplace relations commission will be another piece of important public service reform that will deliver better value and responses for those who use the service. In the same way, we have integrated Forfás into the Department to give it a policy capability which it did not have. It is important to give the Department the capacity to develop policy and also hold our own agencies to account in a more forensic way. That is an important area, and I know Deputy Tóibín has very strongly addressed the need for performance indicators. Having that capability would allow us to develop those in a more effective way, and that will certainly be a theme as we approach this year's action plans for jobs. We want to put performance indicators into the heart of the process, as I know the matter has caused concern.

I congratulate Deputies Nash and English on their appointment to the ministerial team for the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation. They will both bring great skill and experience to the work, and they have already made a mark in a very short period. The Minister of State, Deputy Nash, could not be here today but I welcome Deputy English to the ministerial team. I also take the opportunity to thank Deputies Sherlock and Perry for their work in the Department. We have had a focused approach in delivering important objectives for all of us and having a team to work across the Department in that way has been really important. It is exciting that the appointment of Deputy English as Minister of State brings together the enterprise and training elements. Previously, a single Minister of State did not span those responsibilities, so we now have an exciting opportunity. It was a good change to the administrative roles of Ministers of State. I look forward to seeing the opportunity that offers.

Deputy Damien English

I congratulate the Chairman on her new role. As the change happened very fast, I thank my colleagues for the work done by this committee over the past couple of years. I thank the clerk and the committee team for the excellent service.

We had a very businesslike committee which worked very well. I think the Chairman will find that as well. There is plenty of ground to cover. I do not doubt that the Chairman will make her own mark. I thank her and wish her the best of luck. When the Minister of State, Deputy Sherlock, held the portfolio I have now assumed, he spoke to the joint committee about trying to develop the new research and innovation role. Perhaps we will have a chance to work on that over the next 18 months. It is now clear to me that it is quite a wide-ranging role. Maybe the committee can have a greater level of involvement as we make progress with it. We can work on it together.

The increase in expenditure in science, technology and innovation over the past 15 years has resulted in the development of a strong science base, which is yielding results with economic and societal impacts. EU and international evidence shows that the Government's strategy of accelerating the economic and societal return from investment in science, technology and innovation is paying off. Ireland is ranked first for the availability of skilled labour. According to the 2013 global innovation index, Ireland is ranked tenth of 142 countries. It is ranked 13th in the world for university-industry collaboration on research and development; first for certain scientific disciplines, such as immunology and animal and dairy science; third for nanotechnology; and fourth for computer science. Ireland is ranked third in the EU under the new indicator of innovation output, which measures the extent to which ideas from innovative sectors are able to reach the market, thereby providing better jobs and making Europe more competitive. This proves we are investing smartly in this area and our investment is delivering jobs.

Enterprise Ireland has set itself a target of supporting 95 high-potential start-up businesses in 2014. These businesses will play a crucial role in job creation in the coming years. Since 2000, Enterprise Ireland has supported 1,028 high-potential start-up businesses, which are responsible for employing more than 20,000 people directly and indirectly in the wider economy and have combined exports of over €1 billion. The seven new Science Foundation Ireland research centres that were established in 2013 directly support over 800 jobs, while acting as a key attractor for foreign direct investment. In 2013, Science Foundation Ireland had links to more than 2,000 of the 3,085 jobs - approximately 65% of the total - announced by IDA Ireland in fields covered by the foundation's legal remit. The major role played by the foundation in winning and delivering those jobs often goes unnoticed.

Ireland has built up a substantial infrastructure, expertise and international reputation for scientific research and innovation over recent decades. The Government is driving a number of initiatives to translate this research investment into viable business ideas and, ultimately, into jobs. The continued implementation of research prioritisation, as well as a range of other initiatives to deliver on our strategy, has led to more targeted investment in science, technology and innovation. This will further enhance the effectiveness and impact of our research investment in terms of delivering high-quality sustainable employment.

In 2014, Enterprise Ireland and Science Foundation Ireland will continue to drive commercialisation from State-funded research. This will facilitate the emergence of new products and services that underpin export growth and employment. New initiatives, such as the Knowledge Transfer Ireland office, which was launched in May of this year, will make it easier for companies to access the wealth of technology skills and know-how that is available in Ireland's higher education system. This new office, which is the first of its kind in Europe, will greatly increase the flow of innovative knowledge and technology into companies in Ireland, with the aim of increasing their turnover and employment.

Enterprise Ireland and Science Foundation Ireland will continue to promote and drive effective collaboration between industry and academia. This is essential if the best laboratory ideas are to be successfully translated into innovative new products and services. The ultimate goal in this respect is the delivery of good-quality sustainable jobs for our people. The expansion of Science Foundation Ireland's new remit under the Industrial Development (Science Foundation Ireland) (Amendment) Act 2013 has allowed the foundation to fund activities in the applied research arena, while continuing to provide key supports for oriented basic research. This represents an important step in the development of the relationship between industry and academia in Ireland.

I would like to speak about some of our plans for the future. We have clear evidence that our research investment is delivering a real impact, but we must not become complacent. Since this Government came into office, it has taken some measures to improve the coherence of the landscape of research centres. Science Foundation Ireland is working to consolidate the number of research centres it is funding. This will involve a smaller number of centres of larger scale being supported by the foundation over time. Critical mass will be built across the institutions in areas of economic and social importance.

We are ensuring through the prioritisation action group that a coherent and comprehensive approach to the provision of publicly funded research, in support of 14 priority areas, is being taken across research funders. There has been extensive mapping of centres. Funding has been allocated across the priority areas. Intelligence across research funders regarding industry needs across the priority areas has been collated and validated with input from industry. This provides a solid evidence base upon which research funders can identify existing and future gaps in publicly funded research. This, in turn, can inform the design of open calls in these areas. We have guided a pilot project in the area of therapeutics. All of the research centres supported by agencies under the remit of my Department have been working together on a joint branding and marketing initiative.

This has resulted in three centres joining forces to present their offering in a coherent way, making it easier to find out about and access the key areas of research expertise that the centres can offer. The centres plan further initiatives to deepen this collaboration.

Our aim is to emulate this approach across research centres and other priority areas. To support its roll-out to other areas we are planning a national innovation showcase in December of this year, which will include representatives from all national research centres of scale involved in research across the 14 priority areas. Enterprise Ireland and Science Foundation Ireland are playing a central role in this event in association with my Department, research centres and other funders of research throughout the system.

We will also publish a national directory of research centres, providing details of all centres of scale and their key areas of research. This directory will complement the work of Knowledge Transfer Ireland in helping companies to navigate our sophisticated research system more easily.

The Government remains committed to the vision of using research and innovation to generate jobs and economic growth. Evidence shows that we are investing smartly in this area and our investment is delivering jobs. We will continue to invest in research and innovation programmes to achieve a return to economic growth through growing innovation, promoting the export potential of enterprise and creating sustainable jobs.

Chairman

We will now consider the in-year review of Vote 32, as agreed, commencing with programme A, jobs and enterprise development. We will start with subhead A3, Forfás.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

Ba mhaith liom comhghairdeas a dhénamh leis an Aire Stáit mar gheall ar a phost nua. Is mian liom freisin comhghairdeas a dhéanamh leis an gCathaoirleach. Tá súil agam go n-éireoidh go mór leo sna róil nua atá acu.

I am pleased to note the Department has a Meath element. I hope it will pay dividends to the good citizens of the county in the coming years.

Sinn Féin welcomes any sign of improvement in the current employment crisis. While the position has improved somewhat recently, one must not get carried away or engage in incorrect analysis as to do so would result in a failure to make the policy changes required to address the serious crisis. Since the Government took office, 40,000 net new jobs have been created, including 5,000 in the past six months. Notwithstanding these improvements, unemployment remains high. The proportion of young people who are not engaged in employment or training is among the highest in Europe, and youth and long-term unemployment remains stubbornly high. We still have a two-tier economy, with much of the county outside the east coast not experiencing an increase in employment. I note a welcome improvement apparent in the IDA figures in this area. I am also aware of a push towards greater regionalisation of IDA activity. These are welcome developments which should continue.

The Government must focus on a number of areas, which I have highlighted ad nauseam for the past three years. It must focus on funding for businesses, especially on the supply side of the construction industry, the cause of the current crisis in housing. It must also address the costs of business by introducing a progressive rate and resolving the problem of upward-only rents. Utility and bank charges must also be brought into line with the European average.

Moving beyond the remit of the Minister of State, the collapse in private spending must be bridged by increasing Government expenditure in areas which would make the economy more efficient and create jobs in the short to medium term.

Under subhead A3, on which the chairman is focusing, Forfás has served the country well in recent years. I understand Forfás will be merged into the Department. What savings will arise therefrom? Will those savings be reinvested in job creation elsewhere within the Department?

Deputy Richard Bruton

First, I agree that we do not go out thinking that our employment challenge is cracked. On the other hand, it is fair to point out that there has been a good regional spread. In 2013 every region of the country saw an improvement in employment, but not at the same rate; clearly, regional challenges remain. To address that challenge we will be introducing a framework for a regional enterprise strategy in the next couple of months. We will sit down with regional interests, starting with the midlands and the south east, to look at the scale of the challenges, the resources and how we are using the assets, what can be sweated further and what collaborative initiatives we can take. We are conscious of the need to get a strong regional response. I think the Deputy is painting an inaccurate view of what is happening. Money for business certainly remains a key issue. The Government has been determined to bring in non-bank sources of finance. At the last count the amount was close to €3 billion, according to the strategic investment bank, the developed capital funds and the various new funds we have put in place. There is a much bigger range of options, therefore, but our ambition is to develop that source of finance.

A slightly encouraging aspect to bear in mind is that the number of bank refusals is decreasing. As the Deputy has pointed out, the banks need to do much more work to understand various sectors. I will not go into the construction issue as that is a separate debate. I agree there is a need to find equity sources in the construction sector, as the banks have retreated from lending. That remains a challenge.

The cost of business is undoubtedly a continuing theme. We have looked across our Department at how we can have an impact on that, and have sought to improve in all areas. We have cut the time required to process a work permit, to appear before a rights commissioner and to set up a company and get it under way. Overall, we estimate that the administrative reductions implemented, some of which were before my time, have been worth €207 million. The Deputy is right in saying that the broader issue remains. We need to look at opportunities to improve the competitiveness of different costs. Some international costs drive them but some are within our own control.

On the Forfás savings, there is no doubt that Forfás has been affected by the downsizing of the public service generally, which is a smaller operation. The savings are not large in terms of the dissolution of the board; we estimate that they are only around €200,000. The real gains are that we have shared services, such as ICT, and better management of some of the processes, including pensions. The real aim of this was to get policy capability into the Department in order that we can better manage the resources under our control.

Furthermore, we can develop new initiatives, scrutinise what we are already doing and develop them. The committee members have rightly highlighted that they want to see performance indicators. They give us the capacity to do more evaluative work and to drive performance orientation.

Chairman

Thank you, Minister. Deputy Lawlor is next.

Deputy Anthony Lawlor

I wish you all the best and congratulate you on your new position. Also, I congratulate the Minister of State, Deputy English, who was an adept Chairman of this committee and I wish him every success.

One thing I am delighted about is the fact that training, education and jobs are all coming under one remit now. Recently I learned of a company whose representatives sat down with a college and they were able to design a programme for the type of graduates they were looking for. If that is happening in the real world it needs to happen within Departments as well in order that we can get a quicker linkup. I welcome the fact that there is knowledge transfer. I saw the Minister of State's photograph or mugshot the other day in a slide in the National University of Ireland, Maynooth, at a session with local business people about what the college can do for small and medium sized businesses in the Kildare area. That is one of the real positives of the appointment of the Minister of State.

I will be following up with the Minister of State on the question of apprenticeships. The idea of a teaching block makes it far more difficult for small and micro-businesses to get involved in the apprenticeship scheme, which is only set up or geared up for larger companies. In the old days, whether under AnCO or beforehand, apprentices spent one day per week in DIT, Kevin Street or Bolton Street, but they were still part of the company and were working constantly in the company. It does not suit smaller enterprises to take on apprentices but we need to take them on in future.

I welcome the Minister of State's appointment and I look forward to working with him. I am delighted that the skills and training sides are coming into the Department because that is where the future will be. We need to be able to move quickly to direct where our future employment is going to be as well as link in with the children coming out of colleges and schools.

Chairman

Does anyone wish to comment?

Deputy Damien English

Deputy Lawlor raised a point and he is right. Nearly every business that one visits - it certainly applies to those I have visited in recent months since I took up this role - has a need for certain skills and can create jobs. What is important is that through the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation and the Department of Education and Skills we respond to this and ensure that we put the appropriate courses in place, whether for apprenticeships, traineeships or on job placement. We must design courses around what companies need to produce the necessary jobs. We must have general education but we also have to ensure that we fill the vacant jobs that exist and those we know will come downstream in six or 12 months time.

Those in industry are up for the game and it is important for them to get involved. We are keen to see far more apprenticeships. There will be a public call for this later on in the autumn from the apprenticeship council. It is important that industry responds and gets involved because it is a two-way thing. Most people in industry are interested in that.

I know of one very good story involving a Springboard course being turned around in four weeks. A large company - I will not mention the university - came to the university with a suggestion at the start of July. Only four weeks later it was turned around and there was an up-and-running Springboard course to deliver the skills into the company in question. That will result in approximately 300 jobs being created because word will go back to the parent company in the United States. That is what we are trying to do. We want to repeat that and have that across the board.

Deputy Lawlor is right in that it means both Departments have to respond and work closer together as well. There is a good deal we can do in this area and I am looking forward to working with the committee. I know it is an area the committee has worked on before and it is something we can certainly dig into.

Chairman

Thank you, Minister of State. Senator Quinn is next.

Senator Feargal Quinn

Thank you and you are very welcome, a Chathaoirligh. I am delighted to have you on board and delighted to have you put us in our place in future - I imagine you will - as the Minister of State, Deputy English, did when he was in that place. I welcome the Minister of State back to the committee as well.

I have a concern in regard to jobs in general. There is still a belief that jobs are to be created by Government. I know the Minister, Deputy Bruton, does not say that, but there is still an underlying belief that it is the Government's job to create jobs.

I remember being in Chile some years ago when the government decided that if jobs or enterprises were to be created they had to come from start-ups. To do that, it removed all bureaucracy and red tape. I know there were criticisms that it went too far in some ways, but it was hugely successful, and when one compares the Chilean economy with that of neighbouring countries such as Argentina, one can see the difference that the attempt to remove that barrier made. We have not done nearly enough to remove the barriers of red tape and bureaucracy. Upward-only rent reviews were mentioned earlier. This is the sort of thing that Government can do to remove barriers and enable people to start businesses. I do not get the impression that enough start-ups are occurring. What can we do? The Minister said what he is doing and that is going in the right direction, but there must be an awful lot more that can be done.

The South African Government asked Coca-Cola what it could do. Coca-Cola said it could not do anything itself but it could encourage people to start up businesses as distributors. I remember going into a township at Coca-Cola’s behest and meeting some of the entrepreneurs who had started and built up businesses. These were places where people would not have believed they would have any chance of building up a business. Maybe it is possible to do something to enable hand-holding by somebody much larger, such as Coca-Cola in that case. What can we do to encourage start-ups and encourage people to develop their businesses from the very beginning and see whether they can get off the ground? I believe there is enthusiasm, particularly among the young people to whom we are selling the concept, that they can succeed. If we can get that message across, as the Minister is doing, we will succeed, but we must remove the barriers. One of the barriers has to be a tax on the initial stages of a business. Anything that can be done in that area is to be encouraged.

Deputy Richard Bruton

I have looked at the literature on entrepreneurship because we are drawing up this policy and it focuses on networks that are not created by government. The Government can do a certain amount, but the magic ingredient is often in the business-led networks, whether through mentoring or allowing products get onto shelves, or angel investors. A large part of these successful regions and start-ups are created by entrepreneurs and enterprise. We need to see how to engage that more effectively. We have some excellent examples, some really good incubators and accelerators, and some high-performing individuals who have become serial entrepreneurs, who continually re-seed and give their time generously to support others. Thickening out that network is the challenge, as well as what the Senator says. We need to continue to do the things we are doing. The seed capital programme, whereby a PAYE taxpayer can get up to €600,000 to invest in a new company, is virtually unused. We need to popularise it and make it more usable.

The Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, has introduced corporate tax breaks such that if one sets up a company one has a restricted tax liability in the first three years, and has applied the same rules to an unemployed person who sets up as self-employed. We are introducing a simpler form of licensing which will make it easier for the retail trade to be compliant. We are trying to simplify all the pieces needed to be compliant by halving the time it takes to set up a company and to get work permits.

There is much we can do, but the magic ingredient is how to build an ecosystem. Much of that comes from the education and research and access to finance pieces of the jigsaw, but the challenge is to get those working together. The key to the success of regions that successfully encourage entrepreneurship is the way they have thickened out the whole network, rather than some magic bullet of a tax-free scam for X, Y or Z. The policy we develop will attempt to nudge all the pieces of the jigsaw, from the education system at the start through the start-up phase, the access to finance phase and the mentoring and networking phase. The challenge is to develop all of those elements, but we will be knocking on the doors of people like Senator Quinn's business colleagues to ask how their businesses can make it easier to get shelf space. I know Senator Quinn's former company is a good example of one that offered shelf space to new product. We want to spread a belief throughout the whole community that supporting new start-ups is part of what we want to achieve.

Chairman

Is there anything else members would like to ask under Programme A, specifically from A(4) to A(16), inclusive?

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

The first objective of the Government is to create an environment where business can grow, but the Government also creates jobs. Through semi-State bodies, etc., the Government is one of the biggest employers in the State, if not the biggest. In a time when private investment has collapsed there is an onus on the Government to bridge that investment gap by directly creating jobs. Some of the most successful countries in the world do exactly that.

It is important for the Government to create an environment in which entrepreneurs can be successful and can take the risk upon themselves when there is enough cash to do that. I welcome the change in the figures from 2013 to 2014 with regard to the IDA. I have been a member of this committee for a while and have said before that the Government can achieve success in this area. We often hear that FDI will go where it will go and the IDA has no real role in it, but there is obviously an improvement here, so I am sure somebody knows exactly why that has happened. Perhaps the Minister could indicate to what he directly attributes that improvement. What changes in policy and interaction were made to allow that?

It is stated that 44% of all investment has been made outside the Cork-Dublin area. Perhaps the Minister could indicate whether that 44% in is value terms or in terms of staff or jobs?

Deputy Richard Bruton

That is in the proportion of new investments, but the proportion of new jobs is actually marginally better than 44%, so it is not-----

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

Is it a numerical investment? In other words, is it the case that we had perhaps 50 investments at the start of the year, so 20 of those went outside the Cork-Dublin area or is it the case that we had €100 billion worth of investments from the start of the year and €40 billion went outside this area?

Deputy Richard Bruton

These are investments approved, so these are new projects, and if one looked at employment it is 48%.

The low point was 23% in terms of employment created, which is an end-of-year, retrospective number. That recovered in 2013 to 30%. By 23 July of this year, the number of projects was 33, 13 of which were outside Dublin.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

What does the Minister put that down to?

Deputy Richard Bruton

It is a clearly a mixture of factors. Obviously we have put a very conscious focus on regional spread and there is no doubt that the IDA recognises that as an important part of its mandate. The IDA is also concentrating on emerging companies and has sought to match the mobile investment it chases with achieving a better regional spread. It is focusing more on emerging companies rather than companies that are already well established. The hope is that companies embarking on their first internationalisation would be more open to considering the regions.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

Are they typically more open?

Deputy Richard Bruton

I do not have those data with me but it is a mixed picture. Some companies are more open while others are not. Some still want to go to the deep labour market pools but some do not. It is not a question of political opportunity. Companies come with a very clear matrix of what they want. The question then is how to meet their needs within that while promoting what we have in the regions. Undoubtedly there has been a greater focus on that. The last few years have been very difficult. We have been doing well to win investment and it is hoped we can achieve a better regional spread.

In terms of a regional enterprise strategy, we cannot just focus on the 4% or 5% FDI employment. The 95% of employment which is not in the FDI category must also be the subject of any debate regarding our regional enterprise strategy. To take up the point made by Senator Quinn, we need to create an environment in the regions that supports start-up companies and makes them successful. We are trying to have that bigger conversation, not just with the IDA but also with Enterprise Ireland, Science Foundation Ireland, the educational institutions, local authorities and so forth to better align our regional strengths to both inward and indigenous investment.

I do not think there is one magic bullet to which I can attribute it. Some sectors are better than others. As the Deputy knows, the pharmaceutical industry has a better regional spread whereas ICT does not, for example. We do better in terms of regional spread with pharmaceutical, medical devices and food projects. It is sectoral to some degree. ICT companies tend to look to the urban areas. A lot of the recent developments outside of Dublin are in the pharmaceutical and medical devices sectors. If we can win more in certain sectors, we have a better chance of improving the regional spread.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

On the issue of Shannon, as we know, Shannon Development was set up to focus on a particular region. If one looks at enterprise policy in recent years, however, there has been a swing away from focusing on regions to focusing on the State as a whole. Is there a danger that a reduced focus on the Shannon region will result in a reduction in the level of enterprise development there? Perhaps the Minister would give his views on that issue.

Údarás na Gaeltachta falls between several stools in some ways. We do not discuss it at this committee because it does not fall under the remit of the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation and it is not discussed at meetings of the Joint Committee on the Environment, Culture and the Gaeltacht either.

It was not discussed at the Irish language committee either. If the Minister has any experience with regard to the focus on Údarás na Gaeltachta and how it fits in with the IDA and Enterprise Ireland perhaps he could speak to that.

Deputy Richard Bruton

I am convinced that the new structures for Shannon are better and not worse. The proof of that is that virtually every political representative in the region also agreed. There was a sense that, for example, if one is trying to compete for foreign direct investment a single regional authority will not be able to compete with a body such as the IDA and its experience and presence in the marketplace. A national organisation is able to give companies access to the full range of expertise available at a national level while still retaining a regional focus. The purpose of the regional enterprise frameworks we are developing is to make sure we do not lose anything and can have better joined-up thinking with other agencies because we cannot do everything on our own. In terms of actual performance, it continues to do very well. Limerick and Shannon have had a good flow of projects. There is no sign of any lapse.

Enterprise Ireland and the IDA both have a very good working relationship with Údarás na Gaeltachta. They have their own companies and run their own programmes to support them, but where an FDI project is considering an Údarás na Gaeltachta region the protocols work very well. Clearly Údarás na Gaeltachta depends on the IDA network and does not try to replicate it, but there would always be an Údarás na Gaeltachta person for a specific project or site visit in an area. I do not oversee its programmes and do not want to pretend to have an intimate knowledge of them.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

Before we leave that focus, I refer to the possible development of a new mayor for Dublin and the possibility that FDI for Dublin would be under his or her remit. Surely that would be a disaster and would go against the current policy whereby FDI is centralised with the IDA? What are the views of the Minister on that?

Deputy Richard Bruton

The IDA is probably the best FDI promotion agency in the world. It is certainly in the top two. We have a competitive advantage in doing that. The development of Dublin will be crucial in continuing to attract FDI. If, in due course, Dublin city has an elected majority there will be a role for him or her to develop it as the sort of city that is attractive to foreign investment. Increasingly, in particular in ICT, there is a much broader mix of elements. Talent and investment, as well as the cultural environment and support structure of the city, are important tools. There is a distinction between marketing Ireland internationally as a location for FDI and a city like Dublin aligning its resources to maximise its capacity to attract good international investment. We are trying to forge distinct roles in regional strategy.

Senator Feargal Quinn

We have heard criticism over the years from those involved in FDI that they could not attract the required levels of skills here and there were difficulties in importing skills. What is the current situation? Do we have the right skills? Is it possible for those from other parts of the world to knock on the door and say they would like to live here? Will they be allowed immediate entry?

Deputy Richard Bruton

There is an international war for talent in certain key sectors. There is a worldwide scarcity of people who have experience and training in fields such as advanced data analytics.

I suppose all Ireland can do is to ensure that we seek to educate as many of them as we can. Through the agreement with the former Minister for Education and Skills, we are more than doubling our ICT provision. We have set a target of delivering 74% of the need in the ICT area. As the Minister of State, Deputy Damien English, will corroborate, we have stepped up the Springboard programme, and colleges are putting more people through these courses. There is an ambition to expand that. The companies have been really supportive of the training and they are placing trainees. The system in place is very good. However, there will continue to be a scarcity of those with additional language skills, for example.

We have introduced legislation to streamline the work permit system. However, it still is the case that an employer must recruit, meaning that a person cannot simply come to Ireland and ask to work. The employer is the primary recruiter but we have designated areas of skills in which the regulations are clear and open. There are very few administrative hoops to be faced in areas of skills shortages but in areas not experiencing skills shortages the needs of the labour market still apply. However, the turnaround time for dealing with work permits has been much reduced. I refer to the evident proportion of work permits issued for high skills areas with ICT being a dominant sector. The permit system is responding to skills shortages.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

I refer to the budget for Enterprise Ireland. In June the Department submitted a detailed response to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform under the comprehensive review of capital expenditure process, which that Department is currently reviewing. When will the Minister publish his Department's submission? The Department has experienced a decrease in its budgets over the past number of years. I believe the budget is expected to be further reduced by €4 million under the 2015 budget and that there will be further cuts in current expenditure of up to €16 million. Departmental budgets have been reduced overall by a good chunk of €66 million in recent years. Given the slow rate of growth in jobs, at 5,000 in the first six months of this year, and the state of the jobs crisis, is it not the case that the objective of achieving full employment - which should be the objective for all political parties - will not happen in this decade and it will the middle of the next decade before that objective is achieved, given the rate of investment and the cuts in departmental budgets?

Enterprise Ireland has been one of the most useful tools for the development of enterprise in the State. I fully agree with the Minister's comments that Enterprise Ireland is at the centre of regional delivery of enterprise. I ask the Minister to speak about his Department's budget trends and Enterprise Ireland.

Deputy Richard Bruton

We have done very well at a time when capital resources generally have been severely constrained. The proportion of those capital resources that we are winning has grown consistently and has almost doubled. As Senator Quinn observed, the Government does not create jobs; rather, enterprise is what creates jobs. Our programmes have been aligned to support enterprise in creating the jobs.

I do not accept that there is a slowing down in jobs growth in the key enterprise sectors. The CSO quarterly review data will show increases and decreases; such variations will always exist. However, overall we are seeing a healthy recovery in the jobs situation and in my view we will see more sectors enjoying the impact of that recovery. I believe we can be optimistic about jobs growth and that we will exceed the 100,000 target we set for 2016. I know many people regarded that target as wildly ambitious when we set it.

If we stick to the right approach, we will exceed our targets and the date of reaching full employment will be closer rather than further away.

In regard to the 2015 budget, we are in discussions with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and there will have to be collective Cabinet decisions on the allocations. We will be pitching hard for areas in which we identify opportunities. It is a matter for the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform as to whether the submissions are published. The format it used involved examining what would happen as a consequence of a 10% increase, for example, or 10% decrease in capital allocation. It was a case of scenario testing in order to determine the issues on which we might make our decisions. Rather than specific proposals being under consideration, it was about testing what might happen if we had more or less and how better performance could be put on the different budgets. It was a good way to go.

The Government has been right to seek to hit our financial targets as a priority. Others have advocated a different approach, such as taking whatever was left in the National Pensions Reserve Fund and using it for one last stimulus approach. That would have been totally foolhardy. Those moneys are now going into the Irish Infrastructure Fund, Ireland Strategic Investment Fund and the various SME funds. That particular resource, which would have been spent under the other approach, is now being used to drive enterprise growth. Ours has been the correct approach. The record stands very clear that by managing our public resources prudently and focusing on enterprise, we are getting a jobs bounce which countries that did not take those types of approaches simply have not achieved.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

The system of local enterprise offices has been one of the major planks of the Minister's enterprise policy for the past three years. I wish the staff of the various offices well in their efforts. However, there is a fear among the enterprise community that the relationship between the LEOs and the local authorities, on the one hand, and the relationship between the LEOs and Enterprise Ireland, on the other, have not yet been crystallised in terms of people's understanding of the direction that is envisaged. The question may have been crystallised in some local offices, but it is not the case in many others. I encourage the Minister and his Department to examine how that issue might be resolved by way of training for local staff and so on.

Where stand the budgets for LEOs compared with those for the county enterprise boards? In the context of the interaction between LEOs and local authorities, will there be linkage of either funds or human resources between the two? Will the Minister indicate why investment under INTERREG is so far below projected figures?

Deputy Richard Bruton

There has been some resistance to the LEO approach, which incorporates an embedding of structures within local authorities and bringing them under the centre of excellence system within Enterprise Ireland. What is happening does represent a significant change, but I defend it very strongly as the right approach. It is vital to have access to the experience of Enterprise Ireland and its capacity to scan the horizon in terms of what is innovative in driving early-stage enterprise and small enterprise, bring in new initiatives and drive quality interventions through the LEOs. That type of service level agreement between Enterprise Ireland and the LEOs is a very valuable approach.

We have also used them to drive the youth entrepreneurship initiative and microfinance.

One of EI's roles will be to develop the innovative policy tools that LEOs can implement. That will drive quality and it will also allow the oversight group chaired by my Department and on which local authorities and EI are represented to oversee performance and have objective performance indicators for each LEO, which the Deputy has always advocated. The group can also look across the structure to identify opportunities for shared services, for example, in mentoring. A better quality and mix of mentoring will be available if a national platform and capability can be created. There could be a great deal of gain in this regard.

Equally, there could be a huge gain if the reach and strength of the local authority is part of the enterprise challenge in each county. If we can enlist the property solutions available to local authorities, their capacity to create incentives in certain areas and to use their procurement units to provide support or simply space to which enterprises can have access, we can sweat those assets. Local authorities are a powerful influencer of the enterprise environment. There will be challenges implementing this and I have heard the same criticisms as the Deputy but there are opportunities.

We have invested in training and a good training programme has been rolled out. I can provide the Deputy with the detail. With the LEOs' new role as a first-stop-shop, much of the training was around being able to understand and promote the schemes that they do not run themselves but also managing customer engagement and having a proper customer feedback. We have, therefore, invested in that. The budgets will be larger but, like everything else, we will have to compete for budgets on the quality of the investment. We put in additional money to fund youth entrepreneurship and we want to put innovative instruments down through it. There are more people in the network as a result of integrating the local business support units in the local authorities.

The INTERREG spending is on profile but, because it is co-funded, the drawdowns tend to peak at the end of the year. That is a feature of that funding as people wait until the end. We anticipate a full drawdown and, therefore, it will not be underspent.

Chairman

Before we move from programme A, I have a few questions. Has the Minister's Department communicated with the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources regarding the broadband scheme upgrade that was announced to identify the towns and villages that have technology centres or enterprise parks that require an upgrade as a priority? I have been approached and told that some towns that could do with such an upgrade have missed out. They have businesses ready to develop if they have access to the high speed broadband that they require. Metropolitan area networks, MANs, are available in many towns and villages to provide broadband but they have not gone live. Has the Department been in contact with the same Department to ascertain whether this can happen? It is critical to the regional development strategy that they go live as soon as possible. Has Enet a role to play in this? What efforts are being made to ensure young companies that have the skills to move into the technology area are given the opportunity to get started and to ensure those that are there can grow?

Deputy Richard Bruton

Our input into this is through Forfás which liaises with our agencies. They regularly examine infrastructural needs. I do not imagine it would go down to town level but we have conducted an analysis of broadband capability as part of our general strategy.

While I am not aware of the details in terms of level to which it goes down, I can say that it will identify areas where agencies have difficulties as a result of gaps. In terms of the nuts and bolts of MANs going live and the participants in its roll-out, that is outside my brief. However, I can say that Enterprise Ireland and InterTradeIreland support companies that are bidding for public contracts of this nature. In terms of innovative solutions, we support, through Enterprise Ireland and InterTradeIreland, the gaining of better access. Later in the year, the first trade mission to Ireland will take place, at which we will be orchestrating Irish companies to visit some of the big procurers. We propose to apply the same thinking applied in the case of the many trade missions we attend overseas, which will involve putting our companies before significant buyers to ensure that new technologies are getting their airtime among big buyers within Ireland.

I draw the attention of the joint committee to two errors in my submission. Reference is made in the second last bullet point on page 34 of the briefing document to SFI research teams engaging with more than 670 companies. The actual target figure for 2014 is 710 companies. The figure of 670 was the 2013 target. Second, I wish to confirm that appendix A shows the Vote expenditure as of the end of August. There is a small typographical error in the supporting text above the figures which refers to June. All figures are definitely to the end of August 2014.

Chairman

We will now move on to programme B - Innovation. I ask that members identify at the commencement of their questioning the subhead about which they wish to ask questions. I call Deputy Tóibín.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

I ask that the Chairman bear with me for a minute.

Chairman

Perhaps while the Deputy is reviewing the subhead I will put my questions to the Minister.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

Yes.

Chairman

On the science and technology development programme, in the context of the next three-year strategy, will consideration be given to our once again investing in pure research? There is concern within the science community that we may be losing out on opportunities to acquire information which would be very helpful with big data. While the role of the scientist is to inquire, all the information available to him or her would be very helpful to us in our economy. Another issue of concern is whether we should be looking at investing in low-frequency telescope in Ireland, which would be one of many across Europe. It is an issue about which there is currently a great deal of discussion. Given that as a country we have a tremendous heritage in this area, should we be focusing on it again?

Deputy Damien English

There is a concern that all the research funding is being directed towards commercialisation. I can confirm that the same amount of money will be spent on basic research. We are not turning away from that; it is needed. We are asking all the players in this area to show the impact of their basic research into the future. We are trying to ensure greater use of taxpayers' money and that research can be commercialised, thus leading to jobs. It is not proposed to leave basic research behind. It is important, however, that people can show that it will have an impact. I am not sure if the committee has met yet with Mr. Mark Ferguson of Science Foundation Ireland. The word most used in this context is "impact". It is important we get that message across. In terms of our future strategy, on which work is under way, we will be looking at research across the board. There is no fear of basic research being left behind.

The Chairman referenced the specific proposal made by Professor Peter Gallagher of Trinity College. It is being looked at by Department officials.

They have met Professor Gallagher and the consortium and have directed him to talk to SFI directly on developing his project. The funding requirements of the proposal would come mainly from the SFI's budget but I am also confident that consideration will be given to a decision on it in the very near future. There is a significant amount of private money available for it as well. I am aware of the proposal and it is being considered at a high level.

Chairman

I thank the Minister of State. That project is very relevant to the discussion on climate change because of the type of monitoring it can do of the activity in space in terms of weather events and how they can impact on our weather. The project will have a very broad benefit on many levels if we can find some way of allowing it to go ahead. It would be critical for the country to have such a piece of infrastructure and the fact that it will be located in County Offaly colours my view entirely on it.

Deputy Damien English

We could do a visit as well. The key is to see how the negotiations go and how the projects fits into the criteria that have set out. There is scope to be able to do it.

Chairman

I thank the Minister of State. That has been very helpful.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

In the course of a year most elected representatives will have somebody contact him or her about having applied for a grant, giving out that they could not get a grant and the difficulties they had in accessing this, that and the other.

What is the likelihood of the full drawdown of Enterprise Ireland and SFI grants this year? Is it likely that all the funding for the grants will be expended? I have made an issue of high-potential start-ups in particular since the start of this Dáil. My view at that time was that there was a low level of ambition with regard to the number of high-potential start-ups that were being taken on. Now that we are three years into the process, does the Minister have the statistics to convey the success of these high-potential start-ups that have gone from fledglings to fully grown businesses at this point in time?

Deputy Richard Bruton

I will deal with the Enterprise Ireland element and my colleague Deputy English will comment on SFI.

We expect that there will be a full drawdown of EI funding. The truth as the Deputy will know, is that the drawdown in any one year is partly a reflection of the number of approvals in previous years. What was happening in the more difficult years was that plans were postponed or did not happen, that resulted in the drawdown being lower and did not fulfil the expectations. Some of the funds had slower drawdown. We had established an innovation fund or a seed and venture fund and with the drop in the number of start-ups there was a drop in the take-up of the funds. Now that things are back, it looks like we will be on target.

We have steadily built up the number of high-performance start-ups. There were 104 high-performance start-up businesses last year with an associated 2,100 jobs to be created by the end of 2015. We have looked at high-potential start-ups and they have a very high success rate - over 85% survive - but the difficulty we have identified with them is not failure but the scaling, which has been more disappointing that we would like. One of the issues that Enterprise Ireland is now looking at is whether it needs to look at a subset of the high-potential start-ups and drive them to scale and look at whether a different approach is needed to scaling companies as opposed to getting innovative companies to start up. That will be one of the challenges. The lower demand in the domestic market is part of the reason and the companies must go global from the very start.

One of the areas that Enterprise Ireland will be looking at as part of its three year strategies will be how to get more of the start-ups to scale. I like to look at the three aspects of high-potential start-ups: the number of high potential start-ups, the number of start-ups that survive and the number that grow to scale. Each of the elements is equally important. Perhaps we have had too much focus on getting companies to the starting gate and not enough focus on getting them to grow. Nobody likes to see failure but perhaps the very high survival rates are too high. Perhaps, as the Deputy suggests, we should be taking a punt on more start-ups. That is an issue we will continue to examine.

Part of our entrepreneurship strategy will be to accelerate developments in this area, reflecting the Senator's concern. We have grown the number to 104 from only 83 a few years ago. It has grown considerably in recent times. Overall 20,000 people were at work in high-potential start-up companies over the 13 year period.

Deputy Damien English

I dealt with that question in a speech I delivered recently and will provide the Senator with a copy. To the best of my memory, there have been 1,028 high-potential start-ups since 2000. The target for this year is 95 and we have reached 50 so far. We expect to reach the target by year end. It has been quite successful in that respect.

The Minister referred to something which I said many times when I was Chairman of this committee, namely that there must always be an acceptable failure rate. Over the years I always felt that the returns of the enterprise boards were too high. I have said to all of the agencies I have met since taking up my role in the Department that it is okay to allow for a certain level of failure and to expect it, to some degree. That said, there is still considerable potential in the high-potential start-ups. The key is quality rather than quantity. I met with representatives of Enterprise Ireland last week and they are very focused on quality. They make every effort to pick the right companies to support. They are determined to support the ones with real potential. An estimated 20,000 jobs have been created in the area, which is a considerable achievement, even if not all of them are direct jobs. It is an area which is doing well although I do accept the points made by the Senator.

The capital spend for Science Foundation Ireland will be fully drawn down this year. I only wish we had more to spend.

Senator Feargal Quinn

If the Minister of State had more money, would he spend it? Is he saying that the Department is under spending or over spending?

Deputy Damien English

The recovery has meant that there is greater interest in research and development in industry. There will be more money available through companies seeking to match State funding in this area. A lot of the money spent on research, particularly through SFI, attracts matching private funding. That is the key - to stretch taxpayers' money as much as possible. There is definitely an increased interest from industry in research and development. If we had more money, of course we would spend it. However, we are competing with every other Department for funding and all Departments are under pressure. That said, the increase in demand for research and development is good to see and will feature in our forthcoming budget negotiations.

Senator Feargal Quinn

Is the Minister of State saying that if there was money available he could do something with it?

Deputy Damien English

Yes, definitely. There are always calls for more centres. We are prioritising and trying to focus our spending. SFI is working through seven centres at the moment and hopes to make announcements on additional centres in the future. It is trying to target its resources carefully. Members of this committee visited the Tyndall National Institute research centre and saw the great bang we are getting from our buck there. We hope to increase the number of centres as we go forward. The demand is there but we are constantly trying to get industry to invest more in this area. The whole agenda with commercialisation is to get SMEs involved in research and in using that research. The knowledge transfer office which was set up last May is worthwhile and is helping to drive the use of research.

Chairman

We will now move on to programme C, regulation. I call Deputy Tóibín.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

I apologise and do not want to hold up the meeting, but I have a quick question pertaining to programme B before we move on.

Chairman

That is fine.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

My question refers to research and development tax credits. Are there any figures available which will help us to understand the impact such credits have had on expenditure, research and jobs?

Deputy Damien English

That is a good question and one which I would have asked myself. We do not have a figure for number of jobs created but if one looks at the companies who are availing of the tax credits one sees that they have been very successful in winning export markets and creating employment. Basically, the companies who are availing of the credits are performing better. That, for me, is a fairly good indication that the tax credit is working well. The cost to the taxpayer is about €250 million and the demand in this area is increasing all of the time. It is not possible to say that 20 jobs or 2,000 jobs have been created but the activities of the companies involved indicate that it is paying off. I know the Deputy is seeking detailed figures but we do not have such. That is something we might try to obtain.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

Such detailed information would be very interesting.

Deputy Richard Bruton

The Revenue Commissioners have done some work on it. They reviewed the tax credit and with their accountant's eye passed it as a valuable incentive, which bears out what the Minister of State, Deputy English, has just said.

Chairman

We will move on to programme C, which relates to regulation.

Senator Feargal Quinn

I would like to ask a question about regulation. It seems that every time legislation is passed by the two Houses of the Oireachtas, someone says "somebody should do something about that". That is why we introduce new regulations. I suggest that as soon as we do so, we restrict the opportunity for somebody to respond. Consumers are always looking for more control. The French authorities have come up with the concept that the same regulations should not apply to companies that employ fewer than 50 people. It seems to me that small companies can start off without anything like the same regulations. If we listen to Myrtle Allen speaking about the food business in the Ballymaloe area, we will learn that small producers are frustrated to encounter the same regulations as very large producers. Is there anything we can do about this? I know the difficulty is that companies employing 49 people will be concerned about encountering additional regulations if they choose to expand to 50 employees. This problem seems to have been overcome in France. How can we do something about reducing the regulations faced by very small businesses?

Deputy Richard Bruton

I suggest that can be done by trying to make the regulations as user-friendly as possible. It is clear that many accidents and deaths are occurring on farms, which are largely one-person or two-person operations. The Health and Safety Authority cannot ignore the obligation to observe safety requirements just because the business is small. We have introduced the BeSMART tool to provide an easy checklist for people who want to comply with health and safety regulations. This means they avoid the high compliance costs associated with inspectors coming in, etc. If one goes through the aspects of this matter relating to my Department, it is clear that one cannot say a small business should not pay the minimum wage or take a proper approach to corporate governance. If one examines most of the areas in which requirements are designed, one will find that they are aligned to the potential risks, where possible. That is the approach that has been taken.

I would be interested to see how the French authorities do things. Companies are obliged to register and make returns. It is hard to see which of these obligations could be dropped in the case of a small company. We are seeking to protect people who might become customers of that company and who would want to see that it has lodged returns, etc. If the Senator has information on what is done in France, I would be interested to examine it. Generally speaking, we try to simplify most of our measures. Mr. O'Gorman from the Department has just given me some examples of areas in which we have simplified processes. We made savings of €82 million in the company law area by making it easier to use health and safety. That led to €124 million in administrative savings down the way. That is the approach we try to take.

I know Senator Quinn has particular beefs around the Groceries Order and the regulation of relationships in the grocery supply chain. The committee has examined that time and again. It has found areas of clear abuse and said that regulatory certainty is needed. Many of the companies are operating under similar regimes in other countries. I do not believe it will be a huge burden on them. We are all open to listening to anyone who might suggest that a specific regulation is unnecessary or could be simplified in a certain way. Much of the stuff we have been doing has involved simplifying rules, forms and approaches. I suggest that those concerned about this issue should draw up a list of particular things we could try to modify. The Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, has amended the tax regulations that apply to start-ups.

Senator Feargal Quinn

That is a challenge for me.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

On the ability of the Competition Authority to fulfil its responsibilities, will sufficient funding be available to allow the authority to process all requests made to it?

Deputy Richard Bruton

We have made a commitment to beef up the Competition Authority. Additional resources, including ten additional posts, have been approved. As the Deputy will be aware, tougher enforcement was required, which meant ensuring the authority was able to take on more cases. Additional resources have been provided.

The Competition Authority and National Consumer Agency have been merged. This is a positive development as the two bodies operate on two sides of the same marketplace, with one responsible for the consumer side and the other responsible for ensuring a level playing field in order that consumers are not cheated. The merger is good as it will make the Competition Authority less legalistic, because assuming responsibility for the consumer side will bring it closer to the marketplace and give it a more can-do approach than at present. At the same time, it will have legal teeth, which will be important given the criticism levelled at the National Consumer Agency that it did not have enough teeth. The two areas are complementary.

If one examines the output of the Competition Authority, one finds that it does a considerable amount of enforcement work.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

The new body will have ten new staff.

Deputy Richard Bruton

Ten additional posts have been sanctioned.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

What are the financial implications for the Department of the Workplace Relations Bill?

Deputy Richard Bruton

It has the potential to secure savings of €2 million while delivering improvements in service. Many of the processes in this area were based on paper inputs. We have consolidated 30 applications on a single form and most users now avail of a new electronic facility. We have been able to streamline case management and we are moving to earlier mediation and early resolution. The system will deliver the same service more effectively, delivering projected savings of €2 million.

Chairman

On the Employment Appeals Tribunal, is the caseload to which the briefing paper refers substantial?

Deputy Richard Bruton

Yes; it is fairly substantial. The number of cases for hearing in the Employment Appeals Tribunal stood at 5,700 at the end of 2013. The figure has declined significantly, however, having stood at 8,700 at the end of 2011. While a backlog remains, waiting times are falling.

Chairman

If members are satisfied in respect of programme C, we will proceed to discuss programme D, appropriations-in-aid. Do members have any questions? As there are no questions, we will review together the administration subheads for each programme - namely, A1, A2, B1, B2, C1 and C2. We are considering salaries, wages and allowances, travel and subsistence, learning and development, incidental expenses, postal and telecommunications services, office equipment and external information technology services, among other matters.

Deputy Richard Bruton

The increase in administrative costs reflects the integration of Forfás into the Department. This is the first year in which Forfás is showing in the administrative budget of the Department.

Chairman

Does anybody wish to add anything further?

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

I have one question that does not relate to that specific area but relates to an issue on which the Minister may be able to help us. May I pose the question now?

Chairman

Yes.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

We had a strong discussion in this committee on the EU-Colombia free trade agreement. I think a letter was sent from this committee to the Minister requesting a debate on the floor of the Dáil, and a vote, on whether the State supports the free trade agreement. Has there been a positive response to that letter?

Deputy Richard Bruton

I do not have a briefing note with me. I would be quite happy to appear before the committee and speak about it. Obviously, in all free trade agreements there are very important protections in terms of workers' rights, political rights and so on which are built into the EU approach to all such agreements. I would be happy to appear before the committee, which is probably the best place to discuss such agreements. I can get a note for the Deputy on the EU-Colombia free trade agreement. I do not know what is the state of play at present.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

As the Minister is probably aware the free trade agreement with Colombia is very contentious. It is not the average free trade agreement, if there is such a thing. We had a cross-party delegation meeting with Justice for Colombia, Trócaire and a large number of highly respected NGOs who are actively campaigning for the Government not to proceed with the free trade agreement in its current format. It is one of those powers that we have as a State but it is only a power if we exercise it. We are requesting that the Government not proceed because a large number of trade unionists have been killed in Colombia in recent years. Both prior to these talks and as a result of these talks there are mass demonstrations in the communities there against these because while there are certain human rights protections those protections are not strong enough.

Deputy Richard Bruton

These agreements require a step-up in political rights and they also have protection clauses within them that if certain conditions are not adhered to that certain parts will cease to apply. Generally, our approach would be that free trade agreements are an important way of integrating countries into better standards and rules. Rather than say, let us have no agreement, we would say that one should use the clauses in the agreement to deliver the improvements. It is a carrot and stick process. That is generally the approach. I am speaking off the top of my head.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

I appreciate that. The initial statement was that the joint committee had sent a letter to the Minister asking for a Dáil debate on the issue.

Deputy Richard Bruton

I will get back to the Deputy on that. One concludes trade agreements with countries whose political approaches will not always be the same as our own. One could pick any one of our trading partners and find criticism but the EU has taken care to build requirements into these agreements so that there is a genuine effort to incentivise proper behaviour. The EU is the negotiator and puts together the agreement. Ireland is one party to it. It is not just an Irish agreement.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

It is our responsibility, as Oireachtas Members, to represent the Irish view. When human rights lawyers come to the Oireachtas such as Christian Aid Ireland, Trócaire, Latin America Solidarity Centre, Justice for Colombia-----

Deputy Richard Bruton

I am happy to discuss it with the committee if Deputy Tóibín wishes, but I am simply not briefed at the moment.

Chairman

We can discuss that next week at the private meeting to determine how to incorporate it into the work programme. We can leave the discussion until then.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

The committee made a decision to request a debate in the Dáil. Our work on that issue is probably finished.

Chairman

Are you satisfied that that is sufficient?

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

Yes, but we are waiting for the response.

Chairman

We can seek an update, certainly. Before we conclude our work this afternoon, I invite the Minister and the Minister of State to make some concluding remarks.

Deputy Richard Bruton

Thank you for the opportunity to discuss the work. Much of what we do is informed by issues raised in the committee. We do not always get them quite as members would like, but if we look back over time, we can see progress in respect of issues that members have raised. We try to ensure we are listening to what is going on and we appreciate the platform to discuss the issues.

Deputy Damien English

I appreciate the time to be here and to work through the issues. We will try to build on the working relationship. There has been quite a good relationship between the Department and the committee when working on these issues. The briefing has always been quite good as well. I hope we can keep that going and try to work out solutions and ideas as we go along.

Chairman

I thank the Minister, Deputy Bruton, the Minister of State, Deputy English, and their officials for attending the committee today.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.15 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 23 September 2014.