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Joint Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation debate -
Tuesday, 21 Feb 2017

Banded Hours Contract Bill 2016: Discussion (Resumed)

I remind members, visitors and those in the Public Gallery to ensure their mobile phones are switched off or on flight mode for the duration of the meeting as they interfere with the broadcasting equipment even when on silent mode.

I welcome Ms Marguerite Bolger, SC, who specialises in labour and employment law, and Ms Cathy Maguire, BL, chairperson of the Employment Bar Association, to the meeting to discuss the Banded Hours Contract Bill 2016.

Before we commence, in accordance with procedure, I am required to read out the following. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I remind the witnesses that their presentations should not be of more than five minutes' duration. The presentation submitted by today's witnesses has been circulated to members. I now ask Ms Bolger and Ms Maguire to make their presentations to the committee.

Ms Marguerite Bolger

I thank the committee for having invited us to give it what I hope will be the benefit of our views on the Banded Hours Contract Bill. By way of filling in the committee very briefly, the Employment Bar Association, of which Ms Maguire is the chairperson and I am a former chairperson, is a specialised association of barristers - junior and senior counsel - who act for employers and employees. It is a significant point to make that we act across the board. We act for the multinationals, the unions, the big employers and the little employees. I would go so far as to say this gives us a unique perspective in that we can, I hope, identify the legal issues from both sides of the employment contract - from the employer's point of view and the employee's point of view.

In this context, we strongly welcome what the Bill seeks to do and very much endorse and support any attempts to increase protection for vulnerable, atypical employees. However, we wish to register some fairly serious concerns we have from the legal point of view in respect of how the Bill, as currently drafted, seeks to achieve what I think is its overall aim. I looked at the sponsoring Deputy's presentation to the committee, and it seemed that what the Bill seeks to do is very positive, that is, to give people the right to the hours they actually work so that their contractual entitlements reflect their reality. We very much support this. We question whether it is appropriate to do this by way of further legislation, therefore adding to the complexity of an already complex system, and we certainly question some of the specific parts of the Bill, as currently drafted. We have set this out in some detail in our submission, but I wish to highlight two points in particular.

The first is the essential entitlement the Bill seeks to confer, that is, the right to the increased hours. This is fine, but the entitlement should reflect the hours actually worked. This seemed to be the tone of the presentation made by the sponsoring Deputy. However, section 3, as currently drafted, states that there is an entitlement to hours "where the band requested exceeds the hours average worked". The word "exceeds", rather than "reflects", is used. This quite simply gives employees the right to look for hours over and above those they have been working. It would therefore be useful to consider redrafting this, perhaps using the word "reflects", a word that has been used predominantly in previous submissions by the Bill's sponsoring Deputy.

The other area we urge the committee to re-examine is the test that has been developed which can allow an employer to refuse a request. Interestingly, the Long Title of the Bill refers to "refusal on objectively justified grounds", which is a great test. Objective justification was originally developed around equality law and has been used in Irish legislation such as the Protection of Employees (Fixed-Term Work) Act and the Protection of Employees (Part-Time Work) Act. It comes with a huge analysis by the European Court of Justice in Luxembourg, the High Court and workplace adjudication officers. Essentially, it is a fairly simple three-pronged test.

An employer must identify a legitimate aim or real need, after which the employer must show that what it is doing to achieve this aim or need is necessary and appropriate. The three prongs are, therefore, real need, necessity and appropriateness. This is a good test which strikes a fair balance between the interests of employers and the rights of employees. Although it is set out in the Long Title to the Bill, it is not the test that exists in the Bill. Perhaps this is an oversight. Instead, the Bill applies a very onerous test whereby employers must show they are in severe financial difficulties. On any analysis, this is a hard test for an employer to satisfy.

The reason we urge caution does not only relate to the balance perhaps being disproportionately drawn in favour of the employee rather than the employer. To some extent, this is a policy issue rather than a legal issue. However, a major legal issue arising is that this is an onerous test which imposes such a disproportionate burden on an employer that there is a real risk that the legislation will be struck down as unconstitutional. This is not just an idle theoretical possibility. The Employment Equality Bill 1996 was struck down by the Supreme Court as unconstitutional for a similar reason, namely, that it imposed a disproportionate burden on employers in respect of reasonable accommodation in the area of disability discrimination. That Bill provided that an employer had to provide reasonable accommodation unless it could be shown that it caused the employer undue hardship. The undue hardship test in the 1996 legislation was similar to the test provided for in the Banded Hours Contract Bill and the test provided for in the former was struck down as unconstitutional. We urge the committee to reconsider the test formulated in the relevant section and examine again the objective justification test as the latter is, I believe, what the sponsor was trying to achieve in the Long Title.

The final point to which I draw members' attention relates to remedy. It is a classic legal position that the law can confer all the rights in the world but these rights are only as good as the remedy that comes with them. For a right to be real and effective, it must have a real and effective remedy. The only remedy the Bill presents at the moment is that relating to increased hours. There is nothing about compensation or unfair dismissal. A stark exclusion is the employee who no longer works for the employer. While the Bill covers formal employees, it does not afford them a remedy. It does not afford a remedy to someone who may have been fired for having raised his or her entitlements or may have left a job because increased hours were not provided. We suggest the committee consider expanding the remedies beyond simply conferring the hours by addressing issues such as compensation and unfair dismissal.

In that context, there is no provision for penalisation, which is a powerful tool in protecting employees' rights. Penalisation is where an employee has suffered some sort of detriment or has been badly treated because he or she asserted rights. A classic example, one which is highly contemporary, is whistleblowing. The Protected Disclosures Act 2014 does not give employees a right, as such, to be a whistleblower but simply protects the employee who is a whistleblower from penalisation. If one suffers a detriment as a result of having blown the whistle, this gives rise to a cause of action. Here, we would suggest members consider introducing penalisation in order that the person who is, in effect, punished for asserting a right to increased hours has a protection and cause of action under the legislation.

We also suggest that introducing new legislation, thereby adding to what is already a very complicated and extensive body of employment legislation, is not necessarily the best and most efficient way of dealing with what the committee is trying to achieve. We suggest that the committee consider amending existing legislation rather than introducing new legislation. Ms Maguire will address what it could consider in amending existing legislation.

Ms Cathy Maguire

I thank the joint committee on behalf of the Employment Bar Association, EBA, for inviting us make submissions. Our submission sets out in detail the points we wish to raise with the committee. I will address members briefly on whether the joint committee should consider amending existing legislation rather than introducing new legislation. In the 1970s and early 1980s, which were the early days of employment legislation, we had approximately five key employment Acts. Since then, the number of Acts has increased to approximately 40. Rather than add another layer, the committee could consider adapting existing legislation to address the particular problems that have been identified in the Limerick study and at the committee's hearings. These problems are faced by workers who are not contractually entitled to the hours they work.

The advantage of this approach is that employees and employers are already familiar with their rights under the relevant Acts as well as the mechanisms for enforcing them. Hopefully, if the committee adopts this approach, it will make the new rights more accessible to both sides. In considering which legislation it may wish to consider, if the committee takes the view that workers whose contracts do not reflect the actual hours worked do not have sufficient notice of their hours from week to week, it could consider amending section 17 of the Organisation of Working Time Act, which already provides certain rights in this regard. However, the committee may take the view that this needs to be extended.

The committee could also consider inserting new provisions in the Act, perhaps along the lines of those contained in the Bill put forward by the sponsor, albeit to reflect the original intention of the sponsor, as we understand it, so as to confer on employees a right to request a statement of their hours over a reference period, defined by the Act, and then a right to acquire a contractual entitlement reflecting the hours they have in fact worked over the reference period. If that were to be done, it would also be appropriate to amend the Terms of Employment (Information) Act 1994 to include in the contractual terms or terms of employment the right to request the statement of hours over the reference period and that the statement must incorporate the hours to which the employee has been deemed to be entitled under the Organisation of Working Time Act, as amended. This is the mechanism by which the committee could achieve the end it seeks.

If the committee wishes to continue with the Bill, as proposed by the sponsor, it may, as Ms Bolger indicated, need to consider adjusting section 3 to reflect the apparent intention of the sponsor that the hours reflect the hours worked rather than increasing them. In addition, it should perhaps take account of any unusual circumstance which may have given rise to increased hours over the reference period and incorporate the test on objective justification. Those are my submissions.

I thank the witnesses for their input, which has been very useful. I do not know if this is their area but presenting groups raised concerns with regard to small businesses. Do the witnesses have a view on how the legislation could be tailored to address the concerns of small businesses? Big businesses have caused the problem and it is primarily in this area that demand for change has been generated. Corner shops and smaller businesses have a different operating model from the Dunnes Stores and Penneys of this world. Do the witnesses have a view on that?

Ms Marguerite Bolger

It is always open to the Oireachtas to simply exclude an employer with fewer than a certain number of employees and such a provisions is not unheard of. I urge the committee to exercise some caution, however, because by excluding, for example, companies with fewer than five employees, the most vulnerable employees could lose out. While this approach is an option, I suggest it is not a particularly attractive one in terms of trying to maximise the protection available to the most vulnerable employees.

I would point to two things - first, the objective justification and, second, how a formula for working out the six month average hours would be developed. For example, in some of the submissions that have been made to the committee, reference was made to seasonal work and, perhaps, an uncharacteristic jump in overtime. They are certainly issues of which the committee should take account. This should apply only in genuine situations rather than, say, in the case of a person whose hours have increased because of a once-off or seasonal situation. The six months timeframe as a calculating point is, possibly, not a bad one but the committee could consider increasing it such that the person has to have developed a significant pattern of the increased hours.

Returning to the objective justification, taking the example of the corner shop and a person having a difficulty with working at 8 a.m. when the legitimate aim of the employer is to have the shop open at 8 a.m., the question in this regard would be whether it is necessary for the employee to be there and if it is appropriate to make him or her be there. It may be that if there are sufficient numbers of people in the shop at that time, it is not necessary for that particular employee to be there, but if there are only a small number of employees there, it may be appropriate. In a small employer situation the objective justification test could be a lot easier to satisfy because the legitimate aim of the employer is to run the business and that involves the business being open at 8 a.m., 8 p.m. and so on. The larger employer will be more challenged in proving that there is objective justification for refusing a request. In terms of the concerns of small business the committee can take the exclusionary approach which is easy in one way but would not satisfactorily deal with protecting employees or it could take the more sophisticated or nuanced approach of the objective justification test which should strike a fair balance between the rights of the employees and the needs of the employers and how those needs are particular, different or, perhaps, more challenging for the smaller employer.

I thank Ms Bolger.

Will Ms Bolger explain how the test referred to in paragraph 38 of her submission would work? Along with others, she has stated that the six month period appears to be too short. What timeframe would she consider more appropriate and what other legislation would need to be adhered to in terms of implementation of that timeframe?

Ms Marguerite Bolger

We are suggesting the objective justification test, and in that regard we identified the Protection of Employees (Fixed Term Work) Act. The objective justification test was developed around indirect discrimination and inequality. The reason we identified the objective justification as it is presented in the aforementioned Act is because the fixed term employee is again an atypical, potentially vulnerable employee. The test in that regard is where an employee is asserting his or her right to a contract of indefinite duration, effectively to a permanent contract after four years of temporary employment. This can be resisted by an employer by reference to objective justification. It is the same test that is applied across the board in all sorts of situations and it requires the employer to identify a real need rather than what he or she desires in terms of business operation. This need is sometimes referred to as a legitimate aim.

The second question that arises is whether what the employer is trying to do in resisting the employee's rights is necessary and appropriate. This is what the Court of Justice terms a three pronged test: need, necessary and appropriate. We would suggest that it is a test that strikes the right balance, and even more so from a legal point of view, it is a test that has stood the test of time. There is plenty of analysis around it and it has borne up well in relation to indirect discrimination and fixed term work situations, both of which would be very active and meaningful entitlements for atypical vulnerable workers. As a test, it has shown itself capable of striking the right balance between protecting the rights and entitlements of vulnerable employees while at the same time taking account of the needs of employers. As pointed out by Deputy Niall Collins, the needs of the Coca-Cola type businesses are very different from the needs of the fewer than five employees corner shop.

Is the six month timeframe sufficient in terms of identifying real need? Many of the submissions we received have raised issues around the six month timeframe. In fairness to the Deputy who proposed this Bill, he is open to any suggestions.

Ms Marguerite Bolger

I would suggest that six months does not, perhaps, cover the notion of seasonal employment. Seasonal work in the hotel industry would typically be work during the summer and perhaps during mid-term breaks and so on when occupancy levels are high. Six months is a perhaps a little artificial for seasonal employees bearing in mind that they might have had to work during a once-off event in respect of which there was particular demand within a particular season. Six months may be a little short. Nine months is a possibility.

The committee might bear in mind that 12 months is the period of employment required to be covered under the Unfair Dismissals Act and it, in effect, is almost like a statutory probationary period. In other words, a person has 12 months as an employee to prove his or her mettle and thereafter acquires a right to his or her job. A 12 month timeframe may be more of a policy issue rather than one on which we should comment today. Six months may be a little low but 12 months is the period that has been identified and is generally seen as a successful period in terms of cover under the Unfair Dismissals Act, such that once an employee passes 12 months in an employment, he or she has a right to the job. The committee could look to the 12 month timeframe in the context of when a person gains entitlement to particular hours. It may be a little on the high side and as I said that is more of a policy consideration but I would suggest that the six month timeframe has certain vulnerabilities in terms of there being combined seasonal work with unexpected increases in hours. I would not set the timeframe at higher than 12 months, which we would suggest is the absolute limit reflected by the notion of a statutory probationary period under the Unfair Dismissals Act.

Thank you.

We have received a huge number of submissions over recent weeks. This submission is by far the most impressive to date. It is extremely objective and detailed. It gives us real information. While I am a Sinn Féin Senator, I acknowledge that some of the points made are valid. I also acknowledge that Deputy Cullinane has already said he is open to amending the Bill.

I have two questions for the witnesses. First, representatives of other organisations have attended the committee and told us that there is no need for this Bill. I am conscious that the witnesses here today are employment law professionals and they work in this area day in and day out. In their opinion, is there a need for a Bill to address this issue?

Ms Cathy Maguire

If, following on from all of the research done, the committee identifies a problem, we would welcome any protection for vulnerable employees. As people working on the ground, we will not necessarily be aware of a problem until there is a solution because clients first bring their problem to a solicitor, and if there is no solution to their problem, in all likelihood they do not come to us. I have been involved in cases relating to section 17 of the Organisation of Working Time Act, although not many. It is not a very transparent provision, which may be the reason there have not been many cases. It is difficult to say if the reason there are few cases is that there is no problem or that the legislation is slightly opaque. We cannot answer that question for the committee. However, if the committee identifies that there is a problem, we would welcome a solution to it.

I am interested in hearing more about objective justification. According to Ms Bolger, what is currently in place works in practice. If an employee wants to have a contract which reflects the actual hours he or she is working, for this to be dealt with through the objective justification process, would the matter become one for the Workplace Relations Commission? My concern in this regard is that in reality the employee would be in a very vulnerable situation having raised an issue with is or her employer. I was previously a trade union official. It takes up to three months to get a hearing at the Workplace Relations Commission. In terms of the imbalance of power in the interim, how would the employee be protected?

Can the witnesses make any suggestions about how to protect an employee in those circumstances?

Ms Marguerite Bolger

The problem the Bill is trying to resolve is that a person is working hours which are not recognised in the contract. One of the practical effects arises when the person applies for a mortgage. The problem is not one of being actively abused in the workplace and the Bill has not provided for penalisation. If the Bill provides for penalisation, a person is at least protected by giving him or her the ability to challenge what is happening but without being penalised in the interim even if it turns out he or she had no right to increased hours. For example, under equality legislation once a person asserts rights to equality even if it is found the person has not been the victim of discrimination the person is still protected from penalisation. That is a very real protection for an employee seeking to assert his or her rights.

Objective justification in practice works in the same way as seeking a contract for indefinite duration or asserting that something is indirectly discriminatory and the employer pushes back by saying he or she is allowed to do that because it is objectively justifiable. It is then a matter for the employee to either accept what the employer says or to bring the claim before the workplace adjudication officer. The person would have to wait three or four months which is a problem of enforcement. Introducing penalisation is a practical and important protection to say the person cannot be punished for asserting his or her rights whether he or she is correct or not in saying that those rights have not been properly honoured.

I thank the witnesses for their presentation and I agree with Senator Gavan that this presentation and the documents supplied before this meeting were probably the best we have received. They are useful, straight and explain many issues we have raised.

Some of the groups which have come before us expressed concerns that some workers, without having worked the hours, would demand additional hours. Is that the witnesses' reading of the Bill?

Ms Marguerite Bolger

Absolutely not. It is clear the person has to have established a pattern of that work over the period of six months or whatever period it is decided might be appropriate. This is not a case of, for example, a part-time worker who would like to work full time asking to work full time. Incidentally, the worker is entitled to do that under the Protection of Employees (Part-Time Work) Act 2001. There is nothing to stop a person seeking to move to full-time work and not be penalised as a result but that does not involve an entitlement to be given it. In this case a person looks for hours to reflect what he or she has worked. That is why we are so critical of the use of the word "exceeds" in section 3 rather than the word "reflects". As the Bill is currently drafted it does entitle someone to apply to get hours and contractual recognition for hours the person is not actually working. I emphasise "reflects" because that word was used repeatedly by Deputy Cullinane in his submissions to the committee and it is a good word. At the risk of repetition it reflects exactly what the Bill seems to be trying to achieve.

The committee might want to work a little harder on the formula for six, nine or 12 months and what sort of proof a person must show of having worked those hours. It is very simple. If I show that I have worked a regular pattern of these hours they are no longer the gift of my employer, they become my entitlement. The concern that this is something an employer will have to give in excess of what it is already giving perhaps comes from the wording of the section. Outside that, if the Bill was redrafted to do what it is intended to do that should not be a concern.

I thank Ms Bolger. She has answered my question quite clearly. I did not believe the concern was raised by previous witnesses.

Ms Marguerite Bolger

In fairness to them it could have come from the fact that the way the Bill is drafted is unsatisfactory but capable of solution.

As Ms Bolger said, Deputy Cullinane was open to changes that are sensible.

Ms Marguerite Bolger

Absolutely and his language was very much about reflecting rather than exceeding.

In paragraph 9 of their submission the witnesses highlight the terms "worker" and "employer" and say they are imported from different Acts. Would this cause problems in the application of the Bill if it is not addressed?

Ms Cathy Maguire

Yes. The definition of worker comes from the Industrial Relations Act 1990 which deals with industrial relations and not employment rights, which is interesting. I presume the Deputy is trying to bring in people who may not be employees. There are other mechanisms for doing that, for example, the Employment (Miscellaneous Provisions) Equality Act 2105 extends to persons who are personally engaged to perform any work or service. The anomaly brought into this Bill by referring to the Industrial Relations Act 1990 is that those employed by or under the State are excluded and teachers are excluded. I think they are excluded from the 1990 Act because they have alternative mechanisms for collective bargaining. That is a completely different reason for excluding them than there might be for excluding them from this Act. That needs to be considered.

The Bill imports the definition of employer from the Terms of Employment (Information) Act 1994 but it is completely inappropriate to juxtapose that with the definition of worker because the Terms of Employment (Information) Act 1994 defines employer in terms of employee, which is itself defined by the 1994 Act but not by the Bill. It is necessary either to bring in two corresponding definitions or put in fresh definitions.

That is very important. Is Ms Maguire saying that under the Industrial Relations Act 1990 the term "worker" does not refer to teachers?

Ms Cathy Maguire

It excludes teachers.

If we use the term "worker" here this Bill would exclude teachers. Is that what Ms Maguire is saying?

Ms Cathy Maguire

Yes, it will exclude primary, secondary and education and training board teachers.

That is a valid point.

Ms Cathy Maguire

It also excludes everybody employed by or under the State.

The stated aim of this Bill is to give workers a contract that reflects the hours they habitually work. Do the witnesses believe this Bill would do that?

Ms Marguerite Bolger

No. We have not explored the language in our presentation although we did in our written submission. The language suggests applying for hours. The way in which the Bill is drafted excludes the concept of mutuality of obligation, which is central to the existence of a contract of employment. It means that the employer has a right to expect the employee to be available for work and the employee has a right to work and to be paid. Without mutuality of obligation there is no contract of employment. The way the Bill is drafted is to refer to making an application for these extra hours which does not go so far as to say that the extra hours become part of the contract. We would be strongly of the view that the increase in hours where an employee chooses to seek them should be put on a contractual footing.

Ms Cathy Maguire

I agree with Ms Bolger that the order contemplated by the Act is an order that the employer offer the hours. There is no concomitant obligation on the employee to work the hours, which might give rise to problems for an employer who is directed to offer employee A the hours but when employee A does not do them because they do not suit, the employer gives them to employee B who then acquires a right to those hours but they are the same hours. That problem is dealt with if the employee must agree that those hours go into the employment contract such that the employer must give the hours and the employee must do them.

Would there be difficulties in applying the Bill in its current form?

Ms Cathy Maguire

Yes.

Ms Marguerite Bolger

Very much so.

Ms Maguire said teachers are not workers. Did she also say other public servants are not?

Ms Cathy Maguire

In Part III of the Industrial Relations Act 1990, section 23 specifically excludes from its ambit teachers and those employed by or under the State.

We learn something every day. They are State employees. The witnesses see difficulties in applying the Bill at present.

Ms Marguerite Bolger

Yes. The overall aim in the Long Title, the notion of the right to increased hours and objective justification is good but the Bill as drafted is simply not fit for purpose, to the point that it is at real risk of being found to be unconstitutional.

It would be better to do that through existing legislation. There is a famous line to the effect that the more law one creates, the more lawyers one brings in, which is not necessarily a good thing.

The point one must remember is that in the employment space - someone talked about identifying the problem - one of the issues is that a lot of people are not members of trade unions and they go online to inform themselves. People are much more empowered now in terms of asserting their own position. It is important to keep it as simple and uncomplex as possible. Where possible, changes, particularly those impacting in a very real way on vulnerable employees who might not have much access to support and advice, should be made in as simple a way as possible. We would go so far as to say, in truth, we feel the committee should be rethinking how it might best go about achieving the laudable aims and perhaps not just look at redrafting the Bill, which is certainly something that we think needs to be done. The committee might decide it is going to proceed by way of separate legislation, but we urge members to give serious consideration to how those aims could be effectively incorporated into existing legislation. Incidentally, by fitting the changes into existing legislation, one would also expand on the remedies and avail of orders, compensation, unfair dismissal and penalisation.

I have one final question, which relates to something all of those who made submissions to the committee raised. There is a part in the Bill which seeks that one's working hours would be displayed publicly in two different languages. That seemed to give rise to a lot of issues with the people who came before us.

Ms Marguerite Bolger

I actually went back and looked at the Health and Safety Act because the most common area where the notion of the entitlement to have something displayed in the workplace and the most important one, or the one with most meaning, is the safety statement. Quite a lot of issues have arisen in that regard over the years, according as the number of non-Irish people in the workplace has increased, in terms of displaying the safety statement in a language that is reasonably capable of being understood. That is accepted as a good thing. I will not go so far as to say I definitively commit to it not existing in any of the myriad amounts of legislation that exist, but I have never come across a situation where any statement in the workplace has to be displayed in English and in the first language. To impose that on employers, for starters, would be doing something that is quite different in terms of existing obligations in the workplace. In terms of the respect that should be afforded to the first language where somebody requests something to be furnished to them as Gaeilge, consideration should perhaps be given to that. That may be a wider issue in terms of the language, but to put what is quite a radical issue around the recognition of the language and enforcing that through employment law, that is a very real challenge to a small employer, for example, and it is not something that is to the forefront of the concerns of most atypical, vulnerable employees.

Ms Cathy Maguire

If I could make a follow-up point on that, the notice contemplated here is one that might change from week to week, whereas the safety statement would be changing less regularly, so it would be easier for the employer to translate the safety statement than to have to face into having the hours translated every week into the relevant languages.

Ms Marguerite Bolger

Without being in any way disrespectful, I do not think it is the sort of entitlement that would be to the forefront for someone looking to challenge it, unless there was a particular interest in the language. I do not think it is satisfactory, in particular in legislation designed to protect vulnerable employees. One is almost incentivising an employer to ridicule an entitlement. It is something that may not be observed a whole lot and to have a situation where one puts into legislation a provision that is supposed to be enforced and respected strikes me as something that would be observed more in the breach than the compliance. I respectfully suggest that is not where one wants to be in terms of the first language.

One of the main concerns I have, which I think Deputy Cullinane shares, is the idea that someone would have a right to know in reasonable time what hours they would work from week to week, because that is where it causes huge economic insecurity and other problems for people in that sphere. I take on board the point about the translation but the idea that employers should have to notify what hours the employee has to work for the following week is a good thing.

Ms Cathy Maguire

The current obligation is that the employee would know the roster at least 24 hours before the start of the week. I saw in some of the documents I read in preparation for the meeting complaints from people that they were waiting for the call for the next day. The Act requires notification at the beginning of the week. If one is only working one day in the week then 24 hours is required, otherwise it is 24 hours before the start of the week. If one finishes work more than 24 hours before the next week's work, then one should be notified before one leaves work. The idea is that before one leaves on a Friday one looks at the roster and one knows when one is on the following week.

The section is not that easy to read and that may be part of the problem. The committee might take the view that it needs to require employers to give more notice but part of the problem can be that the employer does not know in advance, in particular where some employees are filling in for other employees who might be out sick or on holidays. There can be difficulties but that is a matter for the committee to consider.

Ms Marguerite Bolger

As an association we would certainly urge the committee to try to avoid where possible further legislation. If the committee went ahead and introduced the Bill and tried to achieve exactly what it is talking about, which in itself is a good thing, one would then end up with section 17 in relation to the 24 hour notification obligation and the section in the banded contract hours Bill which has a different obligation. That is only going to cause confusion, an administrative nightmare for employers and a lack of clear information for employees, which is never going to be a good thing on either side.

I have one final question, is the draft Bill compatible with the Constitution?

Ms Marguerite Bolger

We would deeply question whether the test justifying the employer refusing a request for increased hours is an unlawful interference with the constitutional rights of employers. We reference the Article 26 case in relation to the Employment Equality Bill where the test of undue hardship was struck down as unconstitutional. We are not in the habit, as we are a responsible association, of lightly suggesting that there are elements of this Bill which may be unconstitutional but we do it by reference to an actual decision where the Supreme Court struck down as unconstitutional a provision which looks to us very similar to the test of severe financial difficulties, as is currently set out in the Bill.

As there are no further questions I thank Ms Bolger and Ms Maguire very much for coming before the committee today and for their presentation. The meeting has been very informative. For some of us it has been an eye opener, for example, to hear that teachers are not classed as workers. There are issues we will have to revisit in detail. If we need confirmation or clarification on any issues in writing, will the witnesses be able to provide that?

Ms Marguerite Bolger

Absolutely. As an association we are delighted to be involved in this process. At the risk of sounding very arrogant, we do think we have a fairly unique perspective. There is huge value in terms of what the trade unions and employers have to say but we are uniquely placed in that we see it from both sides because that is the work we do day in and day out.

There is no doubt the contribution of the witnesses today was most valuable. I thank them very much.

The joint committee adjourned at 12 noon until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 21 March 2017.
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