I welcome the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, who will discuss the long list of matters on the agenda. We recognise he may not be able to get through all of them, but should that happen, we will have a second meeting.
First, we will deal with a motion referred to the joint committee, followed by a discussion on the Bill and in the time remaining discuss the issues outlined in the agenda.
The motions are:
That Dáil Éireann approves the following Order in draft:
Teaching Council Act 2001 (Amendment of Nominating Bodies) Order 2012, copies of which were laid before Dáil Éireann on 17 January 2012.
That Seanad Éireann approves the following Order in draft:
Teaching Council Act 2001 (Amendment of Nominating Bodies) Order 2012, copies of which were laid before Seanad Éireann on 17 January 2012.
I welcome this development. I note from the speaking notes that have been provided by the Department that Hibernia College is the largest provider of primary school teachers, with 650 students graduating annually. That clearly demonstrates the very important role it plays in this sector.
I second the motion.
With the agreement of members, I will ask the Minister to make his presentation and questions will follow.
I will give some background information for those who are not fully familiar with the issues.
The Teaching Council was established on a statutory basis in March 2006 for the following: to promote teaching as a profession; to promote the professional development of teachers; to maintain and improve the quality of teaching in the State; to provide for the establishment of standards, policies and procedures for the education and training of teachers; to provide for the registration and regulation of teachers; and to enhance professional standards and competence. It is a very welcome development, which took a long time to come into existence. The council was first established on a statutory basis in March 2006 and the second council, appointed in March 2009, will complete its term of office on 27 March 2012.
The Teaching Council Act 2001 provides for a 37 member Teaching Council appointed by the Minister for Education and Skills, consisting of: 11 registered teachers employed in, or qualified to teach in, recognised primary schools, of whom nine are elected by registered primary school teachers and two are nominated by the recognised trade unions representing teachers in the sector; 11 teachers employed in, or qualified to teach in, post-primary schools, of whom seven are elected by registered post-primary school teachers and four nominated by recognised trade unions representing teachers in the sector; two persons nominated jointly by the colleges of education; two persons nominated jointly by bodies providing university or other higher education and training within the meaning of the Qualifications (Education and Training) Act 1999; four persons nominated by recognised school management organisations in the primary and post primary sectors; two persons nominated by national associations of parents; five persons appointed by the Minister, including persons with experience in business, industry or the professions, of whom one is nominated to the Minister by ICTU and one nominated to the Minister by IBEC.
As mentioned, the 2001 Act provides for two members to be nominated by primary initial teacher educators and two by post-primary initial teacher educators. As Minister, I may add to or delete from the lists of initial primary and post-primary teacher educators permitted to make nominations. I now propose to do just that.
These amendments may be made by order, following consultation with the council. An approving resolution must also be passed by each House of the Oireachtas before such an order is made. As mentioned by Deputy Smith when he moved the motion, it is proposed to add Hibernia College, 2 Clare Street, Dublin 2, by adding it to the list of primary teacher educators at section 8(2)(c). Subsequent to the enactment of the Act, Hibernia College, which is not publicly funded, has become a major provider of primary teachers. Hibernia provides a postgraduate online teacher education course, which is currently being extended from 18 months to two years. This has proved popular as students may continue to work while qualifying and graduates of the programme are fully recognised to teach in State-funded schools. Approximately 650 students graduate annually making Hibernia the largest single provider of primary teachers.
In the section of the draft order dealing with post-primary initial teacher education providers I propose to delete reference to St. Catherine's College of Education for Home Economics, Sion Hill, Blackrock, County Dublin, which is now closed. As a result, it is necessary to renumber the rest of the list to fill the space made by the deletion of St. Catherine's. Therefore, I propose to substitute at section 8(2)(d)(ix): “St. Angela’s College of Education, Sligo;”, and at 8(2)(d)(x): “such other bodies, providing university or other higher education and training (within the meaning of the Qualifications (Education and Training) Act 1999), as the Council shall determine,”.
The draft order was laid before the Houses on 9 January and I would appreciate if the committee would recommend that the Houses pass a resolution approving it.
I do not propose to spend too long on this motion and we will bank questions from the start. I will take the first three members, starting with Deputy Smith.
I welcome this development because Hibernia College plays an important role. Is it the only private provider of primary teacher education? Over recent weekends, the newspapers carried large advertisements for a new director. I do not understand why State bodies waste considerable public money on colour advertisements of such size. I do not believe the size or colour of the advertisement will necessarily attract a better calibre of candidate. We have seen it over the years and I do not understand why agencies continually adopt a policy of placing very large colour advertisements that cost a fortune.
I am not entirely happy with simply adding on another college - I have never heard of this college. I am concerned about the certification route the college has taken. Who established the criteria by which it would be judged? How did those judgments work out? Are there reports on those judgments on staffing arrangements? While I accept that much can be done online, very important in the formation of young teachers is having collegiate interaction with people meeting for lectures and a mingling of ideas. These are formative aspects and perhaps this college caters for that. I seek clarification on that in order to allay some initial fears I have.
I warmly welcome the motion. This is a great college and as the Minister has said, people can continue to work while doing courses there. I congratulate the Minister.
I welcome the Teaching Council proposal as the Minister has presented it. I declare that I formerly worked for Hibernia College, supervising teaching practice. There is major concern among teachers, particularly young teachers who are unemployed, that so many teachers are being allowed to go through a private college when new teaching graduates of the State colleges that are publicly funded cannot get positions, even probationary ones. I know it is a difficult issue because there is evidence that a person is as well off getting a qualification than not. I have no difficulty with the quality of teachers coming from Hibernia College. However, how does that sit with a glut of teachers coming on the market when we are trying to cut public service numbers?
I am sorry I missed the presentation but I am familiar with the document. The issue with Hibernia College and others is that there is a flooding of teachers into the system at a time when positions are few and far between. Further to Deputy Conaghan's point, my experience of teacher training colleges is that they are already slightly removed from the wider university system. Teachers are training in a very isolated situation and in the modern day it is not really realistic that they are not mixing with students in other disciplines, which is not a good policy for those who will be educating people in the classroom. A college such as Hibernia College removes them even more given that they are effectively being trained from behind a computer screen. Have departmental officials taken that into account?
I would feel the opposite. I know of some people who have graduated through Hibernia College while working full time. They have brought, for example, ten years' experience as an accountant, gone back to the classroom, successfully got a job and are working very well in the particular school. There are arguments for and against.
I will answer all questions in the round because they pretty well all focus on the same thing. First and foremost, Hibernia College is fully recognised by HETAC and meets all the necessary compliance. It offers a mixture of online distance learning and group learning where it brings together students for group dynamics related to teacher training and the provision of an education. All of its students are graduates and as Deputy Lyons said they come with a previous university degree in whatever sphere of activity and additional experience in the workplace. The State funds but does not necessarily control the teacher training colleges which are privately owned and are institutions of the various churches. Those colleges take in students who have completed the leaving certificate and run a three-year degree course so they are coming into the labour market at 21 or slightly older.
Regarding the point that there are many teachers in the system at the moment, the principal and board of management of a school hire the teacher. The Department of Education and Skills has no say in that regard. Deputy Lyons already spoke about a person with life experience, another skill and another qualification. Dare I say it, while teaching is a highly feminised profession worldwide, many men come through Hibernia College and in some cases a male role model for a principal in a school, particularly in a challenging area, is an attractive proposition, particularly for boys in fifth and sixth classes, where the rest of the school's teaching staff may be predominantly feminised. I am told anecdotally that this makes such a graduate an attractive person from an employer's point of view. I emphasise that this is academic information. The cost to the participating student is between €7,500 and €9,000. As I stated in my opening remarks, it used to be over a 20-month period and it will now go to a full two years. I believe I have answered all the questions.
I thank the Minister for dealing with the motion and I thank his officials for attending. Is the motion agreed to? Agreed.
