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JOINT COMMITTEE ON JOBS, SOCIAL PROTECTION AND EDUCATION debate -
Thursday, 19 Apr 2012

Unemployment and Youth Unemployment: Discussion (Resumed)

We began our consideration of this matter yesterday when delegates from ICTU and Social Justice Ireland, and Dr. Mary Murphy from NUI Maynooth made very interesting presentations. Today, I welcome Mr. Sean O'Driscoll, CEO of Glen Dimplex in Ireland. Members will know that Mr. O'Driscoll is a member of the enterprise advisory group and the high level group overseeing implementation of Ireland's Asia strategy. Mr. O'Driscoll is just back from China and we appreciate his presence today, as it was not possible for him to attend yesterday's meeting. As this committee does not normally meet on a Thursday, members may come in and out during the course of the meeting.

We are compiling a report on unemployment and youth unemployment and will spend a number of months considering how we can drive change and decrease the levels of youth and long-term unemployment.

Before I invite Mr. O'Driscoll to make his presentation, may I advise him that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give this committee. If a witness is directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and the witness continues to so do, the witness is entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of his or her evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and witnesses are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

With the agreement of members, as the Vice Chairman is not present, I propose that Deputy John Lyons takes the Chair in 15 minutes when I must leave. I invite Mr. O'Driscoll to make his presentation.

Mr. Sean O’Driscoll

Good morning, I thank the Chairman, Deputies and Senators for giving me the opportunity to speak on this topic. I believe that while this State faces many very serious challenges, the single biggest challenge is jobs. We have in excess of 400,000 challenges, which must be solved in a world that is short of jobs. We must realise the shortage of jobs does not just apply in Ireland but that the world is short of jobs. The United States, which has been the single largest source of foreign direct investment in Ireland over four decades, has 7 million fewer people working in the economy today than in 2007. The world needs jobs and the only countries where I see the creation of a significant number of jobs are in Germany and China. I will come back to Germany a number of times in my short presentation.

I believe no country or society can prosper with high levels of unemployment. Our No. 1 national objective should be jobs and not our national debt. We need jobs and more jobs of every description and we cannot afford to be selective. We need a national effort to focus on job creation and it should start with all the Oireachtas elected representatives, and members from employers, unions, and sporting organisations. No single Department or Minister can solve this problem. We need to adopt a radical approach. We must recognise that unemployment in Ireland is not a cyclical but a structural problem. We have had structural unemployment for decades, but it was hidden for a decade by the mirage of the Celtic tiger, where far too many were employed in the construction sector. In excess of 20% of Irish GDP for a decade came from construction whereas the long-run average for a well-balanced OECD economy is just under 10%. That is the reason our structural problem was hidden when we thought we had full employment. During that period our economy was completely unbalanced.

What we need is a broadly based, well-structured and sustainable economy. It is not simply about a smart economy. The smart economy and a knowledge-based economy make a great soundbite, but they will not solve the problem. We need knowledge-based and smart economy jobs, but they are only part of an overall well-balanced economy.

Spain, like Ireland, trotted out the line that it wanted to go down the smart economy route and today nearly 50% of its people between 25 and 35 years are unemployed. Let me emphasise again that we need all types of jobs, smart jobs, knowledge jobs and jobs in manufacturing, services and construction. Our construction sector, which has been pilloried for very good reasons, is now running at about 2% to 3% of our economy when it should be running at 8% or 9%. I am not talking about building new houses, but looking at the existing housing stock and doing something about it.

The role of manufacturing in this economy has been neglected for far too long, particularly indigenous manufacturing. What has been forgotten about manufacturing is what I describe as its multiplier effect. Every manufacturing job creates 2.5 indirect jobs whereas every service job creates 0.7 indirect jobs. Manufacturing has a very considerable multiplier advantage over the services sector. Every time we lose a manufacturing job, and we lost 80,000 in the first decade of this century, it takes another 2.5 jobs with it. The worldwide statistics are that manufacturing represents 70% of all research and development spend worldwide. The service sector is 30%. One cannot have a research and development society unless one has a manufacturing base in that society. That has been forgotten. Retailers will come to a community if there are manufacturing enterprises that have created wealth. One does not see manufacturing industries following retailers into a particular community. Manufacturing is an area which we as a society and from an industrial policy point of view have neglected for far too long. Of course we need service sector jobs. People must clean hotel bedrooms and wait on tables in restaurants, so the service sector is a fundamental part of a balanced economy. We need the jobs of the future, the new industries such as social media, but what is forgotten about these new industries is that they are not capital intensive and are not significant creators of employment. A company like Google or Facebook will never create the number of jobs that a pharmaceutical industry or the automotive industry will create as they do not have the multiplier effect of those industries.

We need a construction sector. It was reported earlier this week that there were 235,000 fewer people working in the construction sector today than there were at the peak. We must get a percentage of those to return to work in the construction sector. We need to look at the education system in solving unemployment, whether youth or long-term unemployment.

We regard education as a social need but do not put enough emphasis on it as an economic need. It is both. The countries that do it best are Germany, Finland and Singapore. Until very recently Finland was at the bottom of the class when it came to education. In the space of two decades it has risen to the top of the class. In Ireland we have an obsession with wanting to send all of our children to university. Germany does not think like that. Germany has what it calls the dual system, where in their equivalent of secondary school, students are streamed and two thirds go down the apprenticeship and vocational route, and go to institutes of technology. As part of their education programme, they will work in industry. Today our company employs 65 of those apprentices in Germany.

We underestimate and undervalue engineering. Engineers make things, they make things happen and create things. In the process they create value. This year 800,000 engineers will graduate in China, 80,000 engineers will graduate in Germany, and in Ireland, the figure is in the low thousands. If it was within my gift, I would say that all fees, including registration fees would be waived for those going to university to study engineering or the sciences. That would not be discriminatory because the cost to the taxpayer of somebody studying medicine is significantly higher than the cost of somebody studying arts.

The IDA is a world class organisation but it is significantly under resourced. IDA Ireland will do very well if in a decade from now it can maintain the levels of employment from foreign direct investment at the same level as it is today. Every country in the world is looking for jobs. President Obama has challenged American industry to bring jobs home and to create 2 million new jobs. We need to be like a good fisherman and go out and look for the opportunities. The opportunities are in Asia and in my opinion in Germany. The unemployment rate in Germany in percentage terms is at a 20 year low. Fewer than 3 million are unemployed, but the figure that does not get enough attention is that Germany has 1.1 million open positions as of now, while we sit here today. We can help solve Germany's problem. How do we get those jobs and bring some of them back to Ireland? When did a German company last make a significant foreign direct investment in Ireland? The money is in Asia - in Singapore and China. I spent the past three days travelling in the greater Shanghai area. I visit China probably four or five times a year and I never cease to be amazed by the money that is there. There is just so much money.

I will now discuss regulation, because Members of the Oireachtas make the regulations. Good regulation is not the same as no regulation, but it is certainly less than what we have. We all hear people speak about senseless regulation. Mindless regulation is the equivalent of carbon dioxide to a human, it is the silent killer of jobs. This time last year I had the opportunity to speak to the chief executives of what would be described in the media as the quangos. I challenged them on senseless, mindless regulation. Their response was they did not make the regulations, they implemented them. When I asked if they thought it was good regulation, they said "No". When I asked them what they had done about it, they responded that they had no way of getting it back into the system. What would I do about regulation, if I had my way? First, how many regulations do we have? I believe nobody knows. We should do an inventory of regulation and then do an audit of that inventory with a view to having only regulation on the Statute Book that is there for the safety, security, health and well-being of the citizens of the State. France is a country that uses regulation very intelligently in the promotion of its own economic interests. We do not.

My message to members of this committee is that it is they and their colleagues who make these regulations and it is within their gift to take back some of those regulations. Bureaucracy is preventing the creation of jobs. We have 400,000 plus reasons to ensure that we obliterate bureaucracy in Ireland. For short-term job opportunities, I suggest we look to Germany. How can we solve Germany's job problem? We have complementary problems. We have a very well educated workforce. How do we identify the sectors where there are 1.1 million jobs? The German economy is very structured. It has about 100 clusters of different industries, so it is very easy to target those clusters and see where we can participate and help them in the process.

Let us consider what we can do for the 235,000 people who no longer work in the construction sector. I am in the energy area, which is part of the Glen Dimplex business. I look at the single biggest transfer of wealth out of this country every year - it is not the interest on our national debt - but the €6 billion that we transfer to the Middle East and Russia each year for fossil fuels. In one hour the sun will create more energy than the world will consume in a year. Where are our policies on solar thermal, solar photovoltaic and geothermal heat pump technologies? We have approximately 2.1 million houses and in the region of 50% of them are heated by oil. We have the crazy situation where we are buying oil and then transporting it across the country. For many people suffering fuel poverty, who are unable to come up with the money to pay for a fill of oil, they must buy it on a needs be, weekly basis. Based on the figures we have for the UK, we believe that 30% savings on energy consumption in homes is easily achievable. A figure that might surprise members is that 40% of all energy consumed in the world is consumed in buildings and 70% of that is consumed on heating and water heating. This presents a major opportunity if we go about it properly. There is significant waste. For example, how many public buildings in this country are energy efficient?

Unemployment is the single biggest national challenge. Our national obsession must become the answer to the question "How do we create jobs?".

I thank Mr. O'Driscoll for his presentation which brings a clear focus to our work today. I call Deputy Lyons first, as he will take the Chair when I leave and members will be called in the following order, Deputies Willie O'Dea and Peadar Tóibín, and Senator Deirdre Clune.

I know Mr. O'Driscoll returned from China this morning and we appreciate very much that he is with us this morning. This means a great deal to the joint committee.

Mr. O'Driscoll highlighted the 1.1 million jobs available in Germany, but I did not quite understand the connection between Ireland and Germany. Is he suggesting that we suck some of these jobs out of the German economy and make it attractive for them to locate in Ireland or that we ship Irish people to Germany? Will Mr. O'Driscoll clarify that point?

We know that when young people are unemployed for more than one year, they will carry a wage scar through their career and can end up unemployed in the long term, which has significant societal effects as well as impacting on the individual. People are challenged by the task of turning around their lives. At our meeting yesterday, an interesting proposal was to follow some of the models of other EU states, for example the youth guarantee scheme, the youth contract, the Swedish model, the German apprenticeship model and so on. Does Mr. O'Driscoll have an opinion on the proposal to invest ESF money to fund a youth contract or youth guarantee scheme for the 78,000 people under 25 who are not working?

I will bank questions before I call on Mr. O'Driscoll to respond.

I thank Mr. O'Driscoll for his outstanding presentation. He placed Irish unemployment in the international context and put across very clearly the problem of structural unemployment, a point that I had been trying to put across. He made it very clear that there is cutthroat competition for foreign direct investment, because people do not realise the level of competition and how it will intensify in the years ahead. Mr. O'Driscoll also made the point that the normal level of activity in the economy for the construction sector should be in the region of 8% to 9%, whereas it is now at 2%. Mr. O'Driscoll is suggesting the way to redress that balance to some extent is by concentrating on saving energy and making buildings energy efficient. Is that a fair summation? Has he any other suggestions in that regard?

I appreciate what Mr. O'Driscoll said about the importance of manufacturing and its multiplier effect. In the past decade some countries got the notion that one did not need manufacturing. Wealth instead could be created by the service economy. Manufacturing is absolutely essential. I represent an area in which there has been much reliance on low-skilled manufacturing over the past ten to 15 years. It is also an area in which many jobs have been lost, Dell being the main example. Whenever a large closure such as that was on the agenda and local representatives went to meet management, we were told labour costs were too high. In Limerick they had to pay an individual €15 an hour when they could get it done for €3 elsewhere. How does one overcome this problem? When Mr. O'Driscoll speaks of expanding manufacturing here, is he considering the advanced end?

Deputy John Lyons took the Chair.

It is unfortunate that our approach in this country is often procyclical. For example, a housing market was in boom for many years but now is stuck in a deep trough. The same can be said for regulation. We were so shocked by the light-touch regulation of the boom times that we have now overkilled on regulation.

I agree with Mr. O'Driscoll on IDA Ireland. Seven times more money goes on a promissory note than is spent on the jobs agencies such as IDA Ireland, Enterprise Ireland, the county enterprise boards and Shannon Development. Enterprise Ireland is virtually standing still, having only created 16 jobs last year.

Mr. O'Driscoll referred to education as a key success factor in Germany. What other key success factors does the German economy have? While productivity would be one, German state agencies also get involved in job retention and supporting businesses. Are there other factors we need to consider?

Energy supply and security will be one of the significant issues facing this State in the future. Much good work has been done in retrofitting the housing stock which will pay for itself in ten years while creating 50,000 jobs. Does Mr. O'Driscoll have any ideas on other retrofitting schemes and sustainable energy generation that could go with those programmes?

Mr. Sean O’Driscoll

I see two aspects to Germany. First, how do we bring jobs out of Germany to Ireland? Despite the fact 80,000 engineers graduate every year in Germany, there is still a scarcity of engineers there. We have many unemployed architects in this country and under-resourced consulting engineering firms. How can they partner with German companies and, say, design a hospital for Germany in Dublin? Second, there is a significant bottleneck in Germany in the supply chain for components. Again, we can make those components here. If we resource the IDA properly and have a proper strategy with Germany, we would have an opportunity to get foreign direct investment from Germany into Ireland.

Another question that arose was about young Irish people moving to Germany. If I was in the unfortunate situation that one of my children had to emigrate, I would prefer to see them go to Germany rather than to Perth. Why can we not make a strong investment in intensive German language training with our young people, similar to yesterday's proposals? If our company sends someone to Germany to work, he or she will be immersed in the language for six weeks.

Deputy O'Dea referred to low-cost manufacturing. One of the reasons low-cost manufacturing was obliterated in Ireland was because of the madness that went on here from 1998 to 2008 when we lost 30% of our international competitiveness. What has happened over the past four years is that we have recovered about half of that loss of competitiveness. That is due to a combination of containing costs here but also other economies inflating their costs. In each of the past three years China has increased pay by 15% per annum. The working assumption in the Glen Dimplex group two years ago was that over a five year period any product we would manufacture in China would double in price. What one has is the meeting of the waters. When I talk about manufacturing, it is not just about advanced manufacturing. Some of the jobs that departed Ireland can come back and, indeed, are coming back. The Glen Dimplex group is now employing over 100 more people at its facility in Dunleer, County Louth, than it was this time last year.

That is a development we could not have contemplated in the previous decade. The tide has turned in outsourcing. We were not alone in claiming we did not need manufacturing. America has lost 5 million jobs in manufacturing. I do not believe it was our political leaders but the economists who decided an economy did not need manufacturing. The economists were wrong. Every society and economy needs a manufacturing base for the reasons referred to earlier.

Germany's key and fundamental strength is its education system. In 2003, Germany was referred to as the sick child of the European economy. It had exactly the same problems we have today – high levels of unemployment and a rigid labour structure. In 2003 and 2004, the then German Chancellor, Gerhard Schröder, set out his programme, Agenda 2010. The area of job protection must be considered as part of that in terms of putting people on short time or creating shock absorbers. I suggest that the committee should investigate that model and what happened in Germany in 2003.

In regard to rolling back regulation, I am a fan of the artisan food movement, particularly in my home area of west Cork. Last year we sponsored awards for the artisan movement in west Cork. This was the movement's Oscars night. One of the winners received 23 inspections in 2011, the vast majority of which were administrative. That cannot be right. In rowing back regulations the first thing that must be done is determine the scale of the problem. Every Department should prepare an inventory of the regulations for which it is responsible and explain how it will eliminate 20%, 30% or 40% of them. Such an initiative would have an enormous impact on the people who are trying to create jobs in this country.

With regard to retrofitting, building regulations only deal with new buildings. I suspect we will not be constructing new buildings any time in the near future. New buildings have good insulation and the highest levels of energy efficiency, whether in lighting or heating. There are 29 million homes across the British Isles but we will construct fewer than 150,000 units this year between Britain and Ireland. The real target for refurbishment and retrofitting is the existing building stock. Lighting comprises approximately 8% of the energy cost of a domestic residence. Appliances, such as refrigerators and washing machines, comprise a further 15%. However, 70% of the cost comes from space and water heating and 30% of this energy goes out through the walls as waste. The question arises of how one finances retrofitting. It can be done through a pay as you save scheme. The cost can be added to the energy bill and as the consumer saves he or she will begin to pay down the capital investment. This is the approach taken in many other countries.

Why do we not levy a special rate of VAT for energy efficient products? The UK sets the VAT rate on energy efficient heating systems at 5%. It may be argued that if a special rate was set for one area similar rates would have to be applied elsewhere but other countries have done this successfully. We could put a considerable number of young electricians and plumbers back to work while reducing the €6 billion we pay in fossil fuels annually, which is the single biggest drain on our national wealth. If we could reduce that figure by 10% we would put €600 million into the economy. This is not just a project for the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. We need to take an holistic approach. The Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government is responsible for building regulations and the Department of Social Protection is responsible for fuel poverty and fuel allowances. Joined up thinking is required. The technology is available and the financing could be obtained.

We have run out of time but if members have questions they will be put in the Official Report and we will ask Mr. O'Driscoll to respond in writing.

Mr. O'Driscoll spoke about energy and solar power. Was he referring to retrofitting? There is much discussion of wind and wave power as the best alternative sources for this island.

A German education committee met members several months ago and we spoke about the quality of Ireland's education system. During the Celtic tiger it was fashionable to send little Johnny and Mary to college because Mammy and Daddy had plenty of money. One of the German delegates asked us who was working in this country if everybody was going to college or university. Mr. O'Driscoll spoke about the German system in the context of solar energy and retrofitting. Some of our primary schools have installed wind turbines and solar energy systems but are unable to connect them to the national grid. Mr. O'Driscoll noted that some people do not even have heating in their houses. That reveals how backward we are in this country.

I ask when Mr. O'Driscoll will appear before the committee again.

We will have to work on that.

It is important because we need to devote more time given the relevance of the matters arising. Perhaps it is not possible to have a longer session.

I agree with the Senator but Mr. O'Driscoll could not meet as planned yesterday because he was in China. I would love to spend more time discussing these matters.

If we reduce to zero the fees for science and engineering, is there a danger that all the new jobs we create will go to Germany?

We were very pleased that Mr. O'Driscoll could meet us. We did not think it would be possible. His international experience broadens his perspectives and he jolts people with his analysis of our domestic problems. Perhaps Ministers should travel more.

In regard to manufacturing apprenticeships, there is a cultural bias in Ireland against education which involves getting one's hands dirty. For many years I taught in a technical school in which subjects like engineering, metal work and technical drawing were highly prized by the students because they wanted apprenticeships in the local railway works. However, that era has been brushed aside now and we need to resurrect that ethos and correct this skewed cultural bias away from manufacturing and apprenticeships, particularly given the number of young people who are unable to engage with the economy.

On behalf of the committee, I apologise for having to cut this meeting short, but we are quite restricted this morning. I thank Mr. O'Driscoll for coming in today. We will try to get him back again. The information he has delivered has been exceptionally important and will form part of the report we are preparing on unemployment and youth unemployment.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.20 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 25 April 2012.
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