Joint Committee on Justice debate -
Tuesday, 4 Oct 2022

Enforcement of Road Traffic Offences: Discussion

Chairman

The witnesses are all welcome. We are still getting used to having physical meetings again. As we have had hybrid and Zoom meetings for a long time, it is something of a novelty to have a full house on both sides of the room with witnesses and members. It is a pleasure to be able to do so and it makes for a much better meeting. Forgive me that I am hoarse. I have a little bit of a dose but it is not Covid so I will endure.

Some of the witnesses will have given evidence in Oireachtas committees and some perhaps have not. I remind them to switch their mobile phones to flight mode. Even though they may appear to be turned off they can interfere with the sound recording if they are still active and I remind members to take note of that as well.

We are here to discuss the topic of an examination of enforcement of road traffic offences. The witnesses might identify themselves as they are called. I welcome Mr. Ciarán Ferrie, spokesperson, and Mr. Peter Collins, of I BIKE Dublin; Ms Andrea Keane, CEO and Mr. Gareth Quinn, central operations manager, of Dublin Bus; four representatives from An Garda Síochána, namely, Assistant Commissioner Paula Hilman, Superintendent Thomas Murphy, Superintendent Seán Fallon and Superintendent Seán O'Reardon; and Dr. Madeleine Lyes, chair, and Mr. Eoin Buckley, committee member, of the Limerick Pedestrian Network.

Most of the witnesses will be familiar with the housekeeping on privilege and would expect this in any event but there is a long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make that person or entity identifiable, or otherwise engage in any speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. If their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed by me to discontinue their remarks.

We may have some members participating remotely but we do not have any witnesses participating remotely. I take it at this stage that members are familiar with the housekeeping requirements.

We will invite each organisation to make an opening statement, to a maximum of three minutes. Some of the groups have four witnesses and others have two. The opening statements are per organisation, not per witness. You can share that or have one lead speaker at the outset. You can divide it up whatever way you want. Once the opening statements have been delivered I will call on members of the committee to put their questions in the order they indicate to me. One or two members have already indicated to me the order in which they wish to come in and we have a rota system so we will go around the committee and members have a seven-minute slot, which is used to direct questions and for responses from witnesses. A member can choose to push hard with questions for seven minutes or to start with a wide question and allow witnesses to talk back. Each member has a mandate and each one is entitled to use the time as he or she sees fit. The only thing I will do is if the conversation goes out of bounds or if the time is up I will move it on to the next speaker. If we have time there is a second round of four minutes each and there is potentially even a third round but we usually cover it within that formula. If any members are particularly interested in getting in ahead of others they can indicate, which one member has already done. Deputy Cannon gets first dibs because he is effectively a member of the committee for the purposes of today as the Vice Chairman has substituted with him. If any other members want to come in, I ask them to put their hands up and I will keep a note as they indicate.

I call Mr. Ferrie to deliver his opening statement.

Mr. Ciarán Ferrie

We thank the committee for inviting us to make a presentation today. Our written submission focuses primarily on the enforcement of illegal parking in cycle lanes but it also considers other illegal driver behaviour that endangers the safety of people who walk, wheel and cycle.

Parking in cycle lanes is not a victimless crime. In June of this year, a three year-old girl, travelling in a child seat on her mother’s bike, was killed in Chicago when her mother tried to overtake a vehicle parked in the cycle lane and was hit by a passing truck. A similar incident in Strasbourg some years ago resulted in the death of a 25 year-old woman. The driver of the parked vehicle was later convicted of manslaughter in recognition of the part his illegal parking had caused in the woman’s death. In Ireland, there have been at least two fatalities in the past six years where a person cycling has collided with a dangerously parked vehicle and there has been at least one other instance where illegally parked cars were found to be a contributory factor in the death of a person cycling. It is our view that this illegal and dangerous behaviour is not treated with the seriousness it deserves.

It is not just the danger to people who currently cycle that is at issue; illegal parking on cycle lanes creates a safety concern, which deters people from cycling. We know from the National Transport Authority, NTA’s, walking and cycling index 2021 that 22% of Dublin residents do not cycle but would like to. This figure is even higher for women and for people from ethnic minorities and illustrates the barriers to people taking up cycling. Section 55 of the Road Traffic Act 1961 describes the offence of parking a vehicle in a dangerous position and states “A person shall not park in a public place a vehicle" if, when so parked, the vehicle would be "likely to cause danger to other persons using the place". It is our view that parking on a cycle lane, in a bus lane or on a footpath meets the test for parking a vehicle in a dangerous position and that it should therefore incur a fine and three penalty points.

A significant issue with enforcement in Dublin is the fractured nature of its operation. The four local authorities, An Garda Síochána and, to a degree, the National Transport Authority, all have responsibility for enforcement of driver behaviour and it is often unclear where the lines of responsibility lie. The result is that many offences fall between the cracks, especially those that may be perceived as being of a less serious nature. This has led to a culture of impunity where people have little fear of enforcement and the law is routinely ignored. The Government is investing millions of euro in active travel infrastructure to provide people with safe and sustainable alternatives to the private car. Without proper enforcement, there will be a very poor return on that investment. Our written submission presents several examples of evidence of a chronic lack of enforcement of illegal parking in cycle lanes, which I invite the committee members to read. All of the evidence shows a level of enforcement that is negligible compared with the scale of the problem. We have also presented evidence on various other offences which are poorly enforced at present and which impact on the perceived safety of cycling as a mode of transport.

We have made a series of recommendations, some of which are included in the Government’s road safety strategy but which have yet to be implemented. Again, we invite the committee to review those recommendations and are happy to take questions on them here. We note that fines for road traffic offences are regularly reviewed and that there have been increases in some fines in recent months but these increases will only be effective if enforcement improves. I BIKE Dublin recommends that the above requests be delivered to ensure the safety of all road users and to create a safer and more attractive urban environment where people of all ages and abilities can choose to walk, wheel or cycle without fear of injury or worse.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Ferrie for those opening remarks. I will turn to Dublin Bus and Ms Keane.

Ms Andrea Keane

I thank the committee for the invitation to appear before it. I am joined by Mr. Gareth Quinn, central area planning manager. I have submitted a longer opening statement but in the interest of time, I will read a shorter version. However I am happy to take questions on any of the other issues.

We welcome the opportunity to set out the company’s views on the enforcement of road traffic offences. Given the nature of our operations, this submission will focus on bus lane enforcement and potential deterrents and solutions to this issue. Dublin Bus is the largest public transport provider in the State. Our services reflect the full spectrum of public transport connectivity in the capital, ranging from orbital and radial routes to 24-hour services and Nitelink services. This gives Dublin Bus a keen insight into the needs of the city, its businesses and the wider community. My opening statement will focus on the importance of bus lanes in maintaining frequency, reliability and consistency of journey times; the importance of bus lanes to the overall customer experience; and how bus lanes have helped and continue to help make the bus a more attractive option. It will also highlight technological solutions that could aid enforcement and some examples of cities which have utilised same; practical solutions which could be implemented almost immediately; and how Dublin Bus would like to facilitate the implementation of these items.

Of the many causes of delays to bus services, few seem more inherently unjust than drivers who illegally park or drive in a dedicated bus lane, triggering a slowdown for the dozens of customers stuck behind. While improved bus lane enforcement is only one piece of the puzzle, it is nevertheless an important one. Dublin Bus is a solutions provider and it is in this spirit that we put forward these options. The four options I would like to mention are renewing the focus on bus lane enforcement; simplifying bus lane designation by moving all bus lanes to 24-hour; examining the technological solutions that could potentially assist both the National Transport Authority, NTA, and customers; and increasing fines for driving or parking in bus lanes.

On the importance of bus lane enforcement, buses can help reduce traffic congestion and air pollution as they provide a more efficient way of moving people from one point to another. However, private vehicles travelling and parking in bus lanes reduces the efficiency of buses and creates unnecessary congestion. Pre-Covid-19, our network speed at peak times was in the region of 14 km/h, with substantial variations across all transport corridors. While some gains have been made due to priority and changes to travel patterns, private transport remains extremely competitive in terms of journey times to the city.

Chairman

Ms Keane, I am reluctant to interrupt, but you are out of time. You may make a 30-second closing remark. I know your statement has quite a bit left in it. You can come in with the other comments later in the session.

Ms Andrea Keane

Thank you, Chair. The other points I was going to refer to, which are included in the opening statement, were the importance of automatic number plate recognition and the role that Dublin Bus would like to play in a pilot scheme that could be introduced. On the point we referenced around the 24-hour bus lane designation, it is now timely to review this designation, particularly with changes in travel patterns and peak hours, which now start as early as 5 a.m. On fixed charge notices, it is now timely to look at increasing the fines for illegally parking or driving in a bus lane. We would be happy to provide further information on any of these points to the committee.

Chairman

Thank you Ms Keane. You will have the opportunity, in the course of engaging with members, to make the other points as we go through. We will now move to An Garda Síochána. I call Superintendent Hilman.

Ms Paula Hilman

I thank the committee for the opportunity to be here today. I am the assistant commissioner with responsibility for roads policing and community engagement in An Garda Síochána. I am accompanied today by acting chief superintendent, Mr. Thomas Murphy, superintendents Seán O’Reardon and Seán Fallon, who co-ordinate and monitor the operations and activities of the Garda National Roads Policing Bureau. Under my leadership, the bureau is responsible for policy formulation, communications and media relations, inter-agency co-ordination and traffic enforcement strategies. Road safety and roads policing remain a strategic priority for An Garda Síochána and are included in our policing plan for 2022. The plan gives effect to our strategy statement to continue to promote and enforce responsible behaviours on our roads, reduce risk to vulnerable users through targeted prevention and intervention activities, work in partnership with the Road Safety Authority and others to strengthen collaboration to achieve our collective vision and deliver road safety objectives through high-visibility operations, education, engineering and co-operation.

We are committed to ensuring that our roadways, cycle lanes and footpaths are safe for all users, with particular focus on vulnerable road users, given the risks caused by vehicles parked on footpaths and cycle lanes. While the enforcement of road traffic legislation is part of the everyday work of all members of An Garda Síochána, we also work in tandem with local authority partners who share responsibilities in this area. This allows us, especially our roads policing members, to focus on lifesaver enforcement, education and influencing road user behaviours. Additionally, we periodically mount specific operations to target illegal parking, which has a detrimental effect on the most vulnerable in society.

I will now briefly outline the structures and governance within An Garda Síochána in the areas of roads policing. We have four regional assistant commissioners who are responsible for governance and oversight of roads policing performance in their respective regions, utilising the dedicated divisional roads policing units and inspectors in each division. In addition, a chief superintendent has been assigned a portfolio. That chief superintendent works with us in the national bureau for targeted co-ordination and tasking of roads policing personnel across their region. This ensures an agile process that takes into account current national and regional trends. This is very much evidence-based and data-led and represents what our data is showing us annually. It supports our vision of fostering a culture of continuous improvement, enhancing innovation and responsiveness to change by ensuring that roads policing activities are information-led. The plan is aligned to our national communication strategy and also incorporates inter-agency enforcement.

I have covered our internal roads policing structures, one of a number of strands that have governance and oversight over roads policing nationally. Externally, I am a member of the road safety transformation board, which has governance over the governmental road safety strategy. I also report to the Policing Authority on roads policing matters. I thank the committee members for their time. I know there are many other areas which we can cover in the questions.

Chairman

Thank you. I think I addressed Ms Hilman as superintendent, I should have said assistant commissioner.

I call Dr. Lyes from the Limerick Pedestrian Network. You have three minutes. You will have plenty of opportunities over the session to come back in and out.

Dr. Madeleine Lyes

The Limerick Pedestrian Network is part of the wider Irish Pedestrian Network. We advocate on behalf of pedestrians in Limerick city and county. We work to develop awareness of pedestrian needs and solutions, to foster links with other community and active travel groups and to be a source of information around best practice relating to pedestrian infrastructure and amenities. Through our voluntary activity, we consult with local and national government bodies, host public walking assessment events and are actively involved in our local public participation network. We are grateful for the opportunity to speak to the committee today on issues relating to illegal parking and can confirm the assertion of the committee that there appears to be a disregard in relation to parking on footpaths and in cycle lanes.

We are in a strange position in Ireland, where parking on footpaths is illegal under road traffic regulations, but little awareness, understanding or enforcement of this law is evident. In the context of the climate transition and in particular the enormous investment this Government is making in supporting a transformative modal shift towards active travel, the money being spent to upgrade footpaths and make walking safer and more attractive is in danger of being wasted if we continue to allow widespread pavement parking to destroy footpath surfaces and block access to pedestrian means of travel. We hope this committee will find a means of addressing this situation in a meaningful way.

We attest to the damage done by the practice of pavement parking. Pedestrians rely on footpaths to be safe and free of obstacles that could force them into the road. Parking on footpaths directly affects those with mobility difficulties, those who are blind or visually impaired, anyone walking with pushchairs, children, guide dogs or using mobility aids. Pavement parking deprives people of their liberty, significantly reducing their options for freedom of movement. It is an injustice that has a real effect on people. It particularly affects the people to whom we should want to afford the most protection and it deprives them of some very basic rights to lead fulfilled lives and participate in public life. We are regularly contacted by people highlighting examples of illegal parking and how it negatively affects their everyday lives, from parents of children attending and residents living near busy schools and multiple business owners in the city centre, to those in villages in the county who cannot safely walk or cross the road due to the presence of illegally parked cars.

These examples are so widespread and constant that they indicate a general disrespect for the law and a lack of concern at enforcement. Laws which fail to protect the vulnerable and are routinely ignored undermine public confidence in our justice system.

The Limerick Pedestrian Network accepts that no one solution to the problem of dangerous and illegal parking on footpaths and in cycle lanes exists but that a multifaceted approach involving education, enforcement and improved street design is required. We welcome the opportunity to present a few proposed solutions and urge the members of the committee to consider them for action.

Some of the things we are talking about include a continuation and upgrading of the ongoing Road Safety Authority, RSA, campaign against dangerous parking; increased enforcement and resources including community policing and online reporting; increased level of fines including ring-fencing revenue; increased use of penalty points for dangerous parking; improved street design and public realm; and following on from examples in the UK, a valuable first intervention may be to highlight particular zones for a zero-tolerance approach to pavement parking.

We would be happy to talk about any of those at this session.

Chairman

I invite members to come in at this stage. As I said at the outset, we will have seven minutes per member in the first round to include both questions and responses. Deputy Cannon is a guest of the committee but as he is substituting for the Vice-Chair of the committee, he gets to move up the ranks and he has also indicated early. The order will be Deputy Cannon, Deputy Costello and Senator Ruane. Deputy Leddin has also indicated, as has Deputy Pringle. Deputy Leddin will follow Deputy Pringle as committee members take precedence. Others can catch my eye as it goes on. Deputy Cannon has seven minutes and that includes both questions and answers.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

I thank all our witnesses for attending today to discuss what is a fundamental matter in ensuring our roads and streets remain as safe as they possibly can be.

In his opening contribution, Mr. Ferrie stated clearly that illegal parking is not a victimless crime and it is not, given both the tragic circumstances that sometimes arise from illegal parking and indeed in the cultural environment where all road users are seeking to travel to and from their destinations in the safest possible manner.

I have a few questions in the first instance for Dublin Bus and I thank Ms Keane for her contribution and for operating one of the finest public transport services in any city in Europe. We are in a situation, and have been for many years, where Dublin Bus drivers, cyclists and other road users have to share bus lanes. Hopefully that will become a thing of the past to a certain extent as we roll out the BusConnects network, not only across Dublin but across our other major cities. Could Ms Keane outline the training drivers undergo before they take to the road on how they interact with and ensure the safety of cyclists as they engage with them on our bus lanes, primarily in Dublin? How often do they receive refresher training on that aspect of their driving? When a cyclist or other vulnerable road user reports an incident that causes them serious concern or in some cases injury, what are the reporting mechanisms within Dublin Bus? I ask because my experience of engaging with Dublin Bus is that I send an email, receive an acknowledgement of the email but no further account of what transpired as a result of that email. It would be helpful for cyclists and other road users to receive some sort of information as to what transpired after the event. It would serve to build more confidence in Dublin Bus and its drivers, in the knowledge that they are aware of the vulnerability of the people they encounter on bus lanes every day.

I thank the members of An Garda Síochána for the extraordinary work they do in ensuring the safety of all road users on a daily basis. It is a challenging job at the best of times. A cultural issue exists where the vast majority of road users do not consider illegal parking to be a major problem or that there are any victims of it. Equally, I would argue that the tendency at times of some members of the force to park illegally lends to that cultural belief. Could the members of An Garda Síochána outline when and where it is acceptable for a member in a Garda vehicle to park in a bus lane, in a cycle lane or on a footpath? What are the circumstances when that can happen?

The Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) (Amendment) Regulations 2019, SI 495 of 2019, provides that a "driver shall not overtake or attempt to overtake if to do so would endanger or cause inconvenience to a pedal cyclist". Do members of the force receive any specific training on how to enforce that element of our road traffic legislation? If so, how often do they receive refresher courses on or reminders of that legislation? My experience and that of other road users is of a significant inconsistency of approach across the force in various parts of the country as to how that legislation is enforced. In some cases, I argue there is little or no knowledge of that legislation in some Garda stations. I know that from engaging directly with road users who have reported instances of close passing and close overtaking and have found that the member they are reporting it to is not aware of this legislation.

Does An Garda Síochána see any value in the creation of an online portal where members of the public, including motorists, cyclists or other road users, could quickly and efficiently upload dashcam evidence of dangerous driving to aid the Garda to enforce road safety legislation? This has been successfully implemented in parts of the UK. A couple of years ago senior members of An Garda Síochána met with those who worked to introduce this provision in the UK, whereby dashcam footage can be uploaded to an online portal. An expert group or unit within the force can immediately assess whether an offence has taken place and take subsequent action. Does it see a value in implementing something similar here? Whenever a serious road traffic incident occurs on our roads-----

Chairman

I'm sorry to interrupt the Deputy, but in order to allow time for some responses, he might want to finish up.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

I have almost finished. The answers to these questions are quite short.

Does it see a value in doing that? The Garda quite rightly asks other road users to submit dashcam footage when a serious road traffic incident happens. Many successful prosecutions have been brought as a result of that aforementioned legislation over the past two to three years. Cyclists have submitted footage and had successful prosecutions brought against other road users who endangered their lives or their safety. They are the questions.

Chairman

Does the Deputy want to direct those to a particular person? I think he has.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

The first question is to Dublin Bus and the second question is to members of An Garda Síochána.

Ms Andrea Keane

I am happy to outline the programmes in place within Dublin Bus. Dublin Bus is always aware that we share the road space with a number of vulnerable road users, including cyclists. Cyclist safety is of paramount importance to us. It forms a crucial part of our driver training process. The drivers receive comprehensive classroom and on-bus training as part of their initial induction programme with Dublin Bus. This includes a strong focus on all vulnerable road users. We have also responded to new technology as it becomes available and have introduced an integrated innovative virtual reality technology that simulates the cycling experience for our drivers. This was intended to deliver a better understanding of the challenges facing cyclists. It was very well received within our training programme and is an important part of the course.

The issue of cyclist safety is also dealt with comprehensively as part of mandatory refresher training for all drivers, which takes place every two years, and drivers receive an annual certificate in professional competence, CPC, every year.

There are a number of training programmes we go through, and I would stress that the practical element includes an on-the-road assessment of driving style, where drivers are assessed against a standard set of core skills using the company's vigil vanguard driver training system. The core skills reflect a variety of important messages in relation to cyclist safety. This is a crucial part of the driver training programme. Drivers also receive updated handbooks, and information posters are displayed where there are legislative or other changes during periods between training. We also have a training video, which further increases driver awareness around cyclist safety, awareness around other road users and other sorts of changed conditions. They are just some of the measures on the training side that I would like to outline.

I would like to address the second part of the question, if I have time, relating to the complaints system. We take any complaints very seriously. They are thoroughly investigated within Dublin Bus and corrective action is introduced. That might include refresher training if something has come up in relation to a particular driver or if road conditions have changed at a particular junction. That is introduced into the programme.

To give some context, which may be useful, we operate around 7,000 trips per day. We carry 120 million journeys every year post Covid and we monitor the incidence of cyclist issues very carefully. Sixty-eight incidents have taken place so far in 2022, but I would stress that they include both collisions and incidents involving a cyclist. They could range from an altercation to a cyclist falling off and causing a driver to brake harshly. There may not necessarily have been any interaction. All of these issues are recorded regardless of blame or culpability with the intention of learning and improving from all of them.

I also make the point that under our direct award contract with the National Transport Authority, NTA, we are required to report all of these issues to the NTA. We also have our own safety board subcommittee within Dublin Bus which takes all of these issues very seriously. It is a formal subcommittee of the board and we report not only internally but also to the board on these issues.

Chairman

Thank you, Ms Keane. I am going to leave it there as the next member is due up. In fairness to the committee I would like to move it on. I know there was a second or third question on which we did not get a response. Perhaps in the context of replying to other members you may want to address the questions as well, in terms of the interests of time and to be fair to everybody. Deputy Costello is next.

Deputy Alan Farrell

Would it not be appropriate for the Garda to respond to the question?

Chairman

Not when we are way over time, Deputy, unfortunately. The way we operate the committee, each member has a seven-minute slot and they can ask a question that takes one minute and have six minutes for answers, or they can use a six-minute set of questions and have one minute for answers. Each member has their own choice on how to manage their time so the party will have a chance to respond. Perhaps other members may overlap questions and, indeed, there will be a second round. I call Deputy Costello.

Deputy Patrick Costello

The online portal was exactly something I wanted to ask about, and while I have a big cross through my list of questions, this is one that has not been asked, so we will start there. The online portal in many ways dovetails with stuff those from Dublin Bus have talked about, such as automatic number plate recognition, ANPR, and some of the stuff the Garda representatives mentioned in their submission about section 81 of the Road Traffic Act. We have lots of cameras. We have 14 cameras on Dublin Bus. I will admit, given my constant talking about data protection and the general data protection regulation, GDPR, I would prefer a system where a driver has to trigger it instead of constant passive surveillance by Dublin Bus, which is slightly off-putting. Certainly, an online portal for reporting these things and providing evidence has worked well in our neighbouring jurisdiction, and I would love to know why it cannot happen here. Again, as cycling advocates such as Deputy Cannon have said, we see it for road traffic offences so why not for cycling offences?

The witnesses make the point in terms of section 81 of the Road Traffic Act 2010 that it is not possible to use CCTV to enforce parking or driving in bus lanes or cycle lanes. There is a list of offences for which CCTV can be used. These include careless driving, parking in a dangerous position and dangerous driving. Surely, given the evidence we have heard from other witnesses that parking or driving in a bus lane or cycle lane is careless driving at the very least, or in some cases dangerous driving, and would certainly meet the category of parking a vehicle in a dangerous position, can we not use section 81 of the Road Traffic Act to enforce those behaviours through those bits of legislation which are allowed, which then brings us back to the portal? One of the frustrations is that, any time we talk about these kinds of issues, for example, with a local authority, we are told it is an enforcement issue. Here we have tools for enforcement that we see work, whether it is ANPR, a photograph taken by a bus driver, or an online portal, and we even seem to have a nice bit of legislation, so I would love to more about why that is not working.

I have one more question. There has been talk in some of the submissions about the culture of impunity in relation to this. I would love to hear how that looks on the ground in practical terms. Perhaps An Garda Síochána could answer that and the pedestrian network could answer the second part.

Chairman

Very good. We will take them in that order. If those from An Garda would also like to use the time to respond briefly to the question from Deputy Cannon, they may do so.

Ms Paula Hilman

First, the online portal is undoubtedly something I and the rest of our senior team support. It is part of our digital strategy and part of our digital evidence management system, DEMS, which we are currently rolling out. It links with other pieces of work and it will be reliant on both funding and confirmation of the legislation - the digital devices Bill - currently being developed and it will be subject to procurement and a better understanding of the product that we require. We have looked at other jurisdictions as well so we are not sitting waiting for this and are preparing to have an online portal. In many other jurisdictions it is not solely a matter of people uploading. People need to make a report, they will get a link and they will upload that. Being realistic, it will in all likelihood be 2024 before that will be going live for us. I was speaking to our chief information officer just to get an update in anticipation of that question being asked. However, we are totally committed to it. More life is online and video technology is used.

In the interim to try to do what we can with what we have currently, we are going to relaunch our traffic watch system. That means we are going to do some internal work where those reports will go straight into our CAD centres, our control centres. Currently, they go into our telephone system. Moving them to control centres that operate 24-7 will allow those to be considered in a much more timely manner. Again, we are looking at the first or second quarter at the start of next year, so we will do that in the interim but with our full commitment to that because we recognise and hear, and that is what they have in other jurisdictions.

Second, I agree very much with what Deputy Costello said about enhanced powers, and as we have heard today with all this and the safety issue, it is a collaborative approach with other partners but using technology where we can.

Many other jurisdictions have a clear use of technology and enforceable powers where people park in bus or cycle lanes. I hear what Deputy Costello is saying about dangerous parking and other potential road traffic offences. They would each need to be looked at individually to show how they would constitute those offences. I know that Chief Superintendent Murphy did some research a couple of years ago in terms of other jurisdictions and enforcement of bus lanes, and how that is done totally by technology and in many areas by local authorities. Any enabling powers that assist us in traffic management are to be welcomed.

Chairman

Does Deputy Costello want to direct his second question to the Limerick Pedestrian Network? Perhaps we might hear from them for the rest.

Mr. Eoin Buckley

I thank Deputy Costello. The question was around the culture of impunity and examples of it on the ground. Unfortunately I am aware of this from first-hand experience. I am from the Dooradoyle estate on the south side of Limerick City. It is a small housing estate of about 160 houses. Most of the residents, including my own parents, are living there for 50 plus years. Unfortunately it suffers from rampant illegal parking and footpath parking. This is primarily due to traffic accessing St. Paul's National School and University Hospital Limerick which are both in close proximity. Effectively what happens is that for an hour in the morning and for an hour in the evening the residents of that estate are largely under house arrest, or that is how they feel. This has led to a serious decrease in the quality of life for those people. They cannot access any of the amenities they need to access by car during those hours. If they choose to walk they must run a gauntlet of cars parked on the footpath and blocking driveways, and it is hugely disruptive. They have petitioned An Garda Síochána on numerous occasions to ticket the offenders and that has been done. Unfortunately it gets watered down over time and the offenders return. The residents acknowledge the resource limitations of An Garda Síochána. They have also tried to engage themselves with some of the offenders only to be met with apathy, false promises and occasionally aggressive behaviour. It is a problem that seems to be worsening.

One of the solutions that we have come here today to propose seems very appropriate for Dooradoyle estate, which is a zero-tolerance zone where periodically a member of the community policing unit would go in and issue tickets and penalty points. This would prevent recurrence as people would not be able to build up penalty points over time. The safety and well-being benefits for the residents of Dooradoyle estate would be huge. If this proves successful it could be a model that could be rolled out to many other affected communities in the country.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Buckley for those responses. I call Senator Ruane who has seven minutes.

Senator Lynn Ruane

I thank the witnesses for their presentations. I must admit this is not a topic I discuss or have engaged in much so I am very much in a listening role here today. What comes to mind for me is whether fixed penalty fines and ticketing curb behaviour in the long term. I know witnesses mentioned educational campaigns and I think of the road traffic campaigns which I would imagine have a big impact on people. I remember first learning many years ago about how I was blocking a wheelchair user in on a path. I could not believe that I actually doing that in such a self-centred, selfish way without ever thinking about how my parking was impacting other users of the path or of the road. Thankfully that awareness gave me the wherewithal to think twice about where and how I was parking. I am wondering about the impact of educational campaigns on a national scale versus enforcement of fines. I am sure there has to be a two-pronged approach in some way, but is there research that shows that penalties work? Human behaviour will often measure risk in a moment so there would have to be someone policing that all day long in a community. We have heard about one estate but if we multiply that all over the country how do we enforce that? I would also be apprehensive about the technology piece, even if that could be the answer. I am wondering what is needed as regards an educational campaign to begin to curb people's actual behaviour. I know there will still be some people that will break the law regardless of having that awareness and that is where penalties will probably come in for those type of users but how do we get to a point where people's behaviour changes, as with seat belts, drink driving, all of those things? I am sure that people's awareness probably impacts those more so than penalties. It is a vague comment really but I am just trying to understand what will curb behaviour.

City planning representatives are not here today in terms of outlining the responsibility they must have in making roads safe for everyone. When I go abroad I generally rent a bike. I spent the summer in Portland and I was in a new city that I had never been in before yet I cycled around it at ease, without fear. I also spent time in Washington. The bike lanes are in the middle of the roads so nobody can ever park on them and there are kerbs blocking any cars being able to come into them. It seemed so much safer than my own city, where I will not cycle. If I can go to a foreign country that I have never visited before and feel fine about it and be happy on the roads, a conversation is obviously needed about responsibility for road safety and safe environments rather than those where a road user thinks "I will take the risk of parking my car here while I run in to collect the kids from school because I have no other option". What is the other option for those parents? They can be fined all we want but where do we push the problem to in terms of who is responsible for ensuring schools and shop fronts and couriers and delivery drivers have somewhere safe to pull in, in the first place? It is probably not a direct question but if I could have comments from Ms Hilman and then potentially from Mr. Buckley, Dr. Lyes or Mr. Ferrie.

Ms Paula Hilman

I thank Senator Ruane for her comments with which I would agree. We start off with design and engineering from the outset where we can. When we do come in with enforcement, even like the example in Limerick, we can bring our community policing team in but what does the design look like outside that school? If one is going to design something where people cannot park, is there a car park where parents can park to have a longer term solution to that?

Superintendent Fallon has some research from the University of Limerick, UL, and I will pass over to him shortly. From the perspective of An Garda Síochána and how we approach things, I did outline at the outset how we operate. We are the national unit and we set operations and we communicate those. Everything is still left to the discretion of the individual garda who goes to the call. If we look at how we policed Covid-19, the four Es it is very much the same in this space - engagement, explaining, education and then the move on to enforcement. With enforcement Chief Superintendent Murphy is working with the Department on the introduction of the increased fines. There are increased fines introduced by the Minister but it is important to have the tools and toolkits that are right for the individual circumstances gardaí find themselves in when they go out to those calls. Undoubtedly it is also about, as Senator Ruane referenced, engineering and partnership, working with local authorities and how areas are designed. There are also the opportunities offered by technology. The Senator mentioned research and I know Superintendent Fallon has some.

Mr. Seán Fallon

Senator Ruane touched on education and that is a hugely important piece for us, certainly in terms of the engagement we have had recently with our roads policing personnel. We have proactively examined in the past six to nine months how we would engage with those target demographics of people who may be at risk. During that we came upon a really interesting piece. I want to reassure the committee that there are really passionate people in the roads policing community; their professionalism comes across the table when they speak with great passion about going to those scenes and dealing with the horrific aftermaths that they face on a fairly frequent basis. One of the sergeants in Limerick developed the Lifesaver educational project. Last week we agreed that would be rolled out nationally as part of our education programme where we will have a standardised presentation that can be adapted. Its initial concept was to target transition year students across Limerick but that can be tailored and adapted to industry and Tony has given this presentation to various large companies in the Limerick area.

We did some feedback touching on the impact that is having. The data we received were a very positive endorsement of that, particularly around getting the voice into those young people, as it were, because they are probably not watching TV. In my own house nobody watches TV and we are not reading mainstream newspaper media. How are we going to target that? It is tailor made and the advantage for us that we are really excited about is that it will be standardised and we will have lifesaver project ambassadors. For all the pain points we are seeing, there is the opportunity to raise awareness of that. There is a reality, as was alluded to, that at certain times you do not realise the damage you are causing. There is an onus on us not just in terms of the enforcement piece but the education piece and bringing people with us because, as the Commissioner has alluded to, this is very much a shared responsibility. It will not all be done by gardaí alone. Likewise, everyone has a social responsibility. Certainly in terms of the education piece, we are quite excited by it and think it will have a real impact. It has had so far and it has been delivered the project to something in the region of 50,000 people. We are quite enthused by that.

Deputy Thomas Pringle

I thank everybody for their presentations. Not being from Dublin, maybe I have a different attitude to a lot of this stuff. I do drive around the city, however, and I see what is happening. I do not see much evidence of people driving in bus lanes, which is quite good, but I agree they should be made 24 hour. I use bus lanes outside of the times they are in operation, but it makes a lot of sense for them to be 24 hour and that should be rolled out. It would make a lot of sense in terms of safety.

I take what the Garda witnesses say about education and stuff. That is vitally important. What you do see an awful lot of is people parking in bus lanes and cycle lanes. Before I came to the meeting, I saw on Twitter that somebody had pointed out to gardaí that there was a car parked blocking the path where they were pushing a pram, and the garda just said it was illegal and drove off without doing anything about it. That kind of stuff does not work and defeats the whole purpose, now that that tweet has gone out and hundreds of thousands of people have seen it. There is a need for an enforcement role to take place in the meantime, because if we wait for the Government and the local authorities to roll out proper educational programmes, we will be waiting a long time, unfortunately. There is a need for that enforcement role to take place actively, because I know from personal experience that if you know you are likely to get done on a certain section of road or you have got done before for something, that is going to make a difference as to whether you do it again. That is the reality of the situation. Even if you hear that somebody else has got done or something like that, that makes a difference and it gets out there. That is vitally important, and while we wait for the rollout of the education courses, that has to happen in terms of building people's respect for the law and for pedestrian safety. I would probably be guilty of it myself at times too, so it is very important we do that as well.

Mr. Peter Collins

I want to respond to Senator Ruane and Deputy Pringle on the enforcement and education pieces. The education piece through the RSA, An Garda Síochána and everyone else has been going on a long time and we are all aware of it. Some of us with young kids see a lot of it as well. Parallel to the education, however, there are many people, as the Deputy said, who will remember receiving a ticket for speeding or otherwise on a section of road and will slow down. Enforcement is very important. It hammers things home and supports the education. It shows we are educating people on this but that there are consequences. If there are no consequences, people do not care. They will run the gauntlet, take the risk and park in the cycle lane for two minutes. They will speed down the road because they are late or in a hurry, and if there are no consequences, they will continue to do that.

Somebody mentioned impunity. One good example of evidence of enforcement is the average speed cameras on the new M7, which are also in the Dublin Port tunnel with 99% compliance. Before speed cameras were introduced on the M7, speeding compliance was about 60%, so about 40% were consistently breaking the speed limits. That improved once they were installed. It improved from 60% to 89% before they were active, and once they were activated, that compliance increased beyond 90%. It is very clear that, along with the education and telling people to behave and how to behave, enforcement is very important to get the message across. If there is no penalty, there is no crime, there are no consequences, and people will continue to do it until they get caught and there are consequences. Both points were well made and I think enforcement should follow hand in hand with the education piece.

Ms Paula Hilman

As outlined, our experience and what we have seen from working with Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII, to introduce those average speed cameras is that people change behaviours. The vast majority comply. Technology is one of the four areas, and I know Dublin Bus told the committee about this earlier, where, as well as enforcement, either by An Garda Síochána or by local authority parking wardens, it can play a role if people know they are going to be detected doing something. We will not have a garda in every street, on every road 24 hours a day, but we know the high-risk areas where we can target operations, and we do that. That is where there is a good opportunity for the use of technology. If we had technology on buses, it would be able to record where a car is parked and a process introduced where it can be used for enforcement against that type of offending.

Deputy Thomas Pringle

What about if a member of the public sees an offence and points it out to a garda? Is that not enough?

Ms Paula Hilman

It is as well; of course it is, or if a garda sees it. The Deputy has given us an example. There is that as well, and if we are seeing the offence ourselves. Again, it is back to what was said earlier about it being at the discretion of each individual member as to how he or she deals with the offence that has been reported to him or her. It is also about being able to have that type of non-intercept detection, where it is recorded, there does not have to be that engagement, and the technology can be used in addition to the Garda and local authorities, as happens in other jurisdictions as well.

Deputy Pa Daly

Coming from a County Kerry perspective, there has been a complete change in attitude towards cycling. When I went to school in the 1980s, there were bike sheds. I spoke to a teacher in one school recently and he told me five out of 500 pupils in this Kerry school cycle. In another school, three out of 300 cycle. None of those were teenage girls. In 2016, 70% of Kerry children went to primary school by car, which is 10% more than the previous census. There has been an 87% decrease between 1996 and 2011 in people cycling to secondary school. In the whole of the State, I think 700 teenage girls cycle to school compared with 19,000 in 1986. I remember bringing one of my children to school on the bike and one of the parents at the school gate saying to me she did not know I was off the road, which I was not by the way, for the record - not yet anyway.

A total of 90% of the cyclists going to school seem to be male and consequently there is a big traffic problem outside many schools, in Killarney and Tralee in particular. I spoke to a garda recently and asked him to send someone to monitor what was going on, because I do not think you can go straight into schools and start handing out fines. Parents would have to be given fair warning. The Garda put down cones at one school and one person came along and started parking her car there. When someone pointed what she was doing, she said she thought she was being guided into the spot as opposed to not being allowed park there.

The assistant commissioner mentioned an interagency response, and it might have been mentioned by a few people. That is important, because none of the cycle lanes in Kerry seem to be a different colour, which is important.

Most of the greenways currently being built in Kerry are guided towards tourism in rural rather than urban areas where people actually use them. It is really only an accident that some of them, at the beginning or the end of the routes, have become very successful urban greenways or cycleways.

I think Mr. Collins mentioned the planning situation and the inclusion of drop-offs. One school in Tralee was recently refurbished but no provision was made for people to drop off their children in a good way. I welcome the comments by members of An Garda Síochána on enforcement. When the gardaí came to the school that day, they had to go away because the unit staffing was down from 13 gardaí a couple of years ago to nine now. Seven of the gardaí in that unit were required in court on a District Court day on a Wednesday in Tralee, so the gardaí had to leave before parents came to the school at that time. No more than during Covid, it is important to engage with people and, as Commissioner Harris always says, police by consent rather than going straight in because that would not go down well.

I am not so sure about the 24-hour bus lanes as someone who drives in and out of Dublin every other day, sometimes at 11 p.m or 12 midnight. I am not sure if bus lanes are necessary at those times but every day is a school day, as they say, so I am open to ideas on that. I thank the representatives for their time. I ask them to see what they can do down the line about more gardaí in Kerry. I am sure that will be echoed by many members of the police service there. Some people say "the force" all the time but I am not comfortable with that phrase.

Chairman

What was the last thing the Deputy said?

Deputy Pa Daly

Some people use the words "the force" all the time. Many journalists use that term.

Ms Paula Hilman

We have outlined our four Es approach involving engagement, explaining, education and, as a last resort, enforcement. It is a problem-solving approach that very much includes community policing teams. In Kerry, we are using the See Something, Say Something app in Tralee, and it is now going to launch in Killarney, through which things can also be reported. We will launch that nationally; it started in Kerry. It is where members of the public can also report things to us through that app. We are about to launch that in Drogheda and Longford.

I have not yet mentioned the joint policing committees and the three new community safety partnerships of Longford, Waterford and north inner city Dublin. It is very much about how we can work in partnership with them - Longford launched its community safety plan just two weeks ago - and especially with the community policing teams. We are working with our roads policing members in the longer term, and the Deputy gave a good example of no drop-off points at a school, to see how they can work with local authorities to facilitate something. That is very much what our approach has been and will continue to be.

Deputy Pa Daly

I would like to pay to pay tribute to Sergeant Lynda Brosnan-----

(Interruptions).

Deputy Pa Daly

-----in the community section of Tralee Garda station. A resident contacted me that morning and Sergeant Brosnan sent someone that very afternoon to look at what was going on at the school. Fair play to her.

Chairman

I thank the Deputy. I know he is under pressure to get to the Chamber.

Mr. Ciarán Ferrie

I will come back to what Deputy Daly said about the school run, which was also picked up on by Senator Ruane. If people drop their children off and park illegally, what is the alternative? What do we do? It is important to realise this a bit of a vicious cycle. People are driving their children to school because it is unsafe for them for them to walk or cycle, but by driving their children to school they are adding to the safety issues on the roads. The issues of enforcement and infrastructure have to be tackled. We have to provide children with the option of cycling to school.

A very good measure of how safe our roads are is the number of children cycling to school. We often hear about the number of fatalities and that is an important measure of road safety but when we compare Ireland with somewhere like the Netherlands, for example, 75% of secondary school students there cycle to school. In Ireland, as members will know, that number is approximately 5%. It is very low, although it may have increased in the past few years. From our perspective, that tells its own story about the perception of safety on the roads. As a result of that perception, more people are driving because they believe that is the safest way to get their children to school. That is the issue that has to be tackled.

Chairman

The next speaker is Deputy Leddin who has an interest in this issue and is attending the committee for the purpose of today's deliberations. He has seven minutes.

Deputy Brian Leddin

I thank the Chair, in particular, and committee members for having this session, which is critically important. As they know, it is something in which I take a particular interest and pushed with members of the committee. I am very happy to see that it is happening today. As I said, it is critically important. I get the sense that many people in this room do not understand just how critically important it is.

We have a chronic situation with respect to illegal parking on bus lanes, cycle lanes and footpaths. Mr. Ferrie's point about the impact of this is that it ultimately deters people from walking, cycling or using the bus. One of the greatest challenges we have is to get people to use those modes of transport. Unless we take it very seriously when other road users impinge on people's ability to use those modes, we will not succeed in this great challenge we face. By the way, I do not want to say that this failure is simply down to An Garda Síochána. It would be wrong of me to say that. The failure is that of the Government and local authorities. We have to accept that this is failure. It is total failure and we need to sort it out.

I am very happy to hear from Mr. Buckley and I welcome my county compatriots to today's meeting. What Mr. Buckley described in Dooradoyle is repeated everywhere on practically every street in the country. I would like to see a trial in Dooradoyle but I would also like to see us get beyond trials very quickly because we are in this chronic situation. We can talk about the four Es of engagement, explaining, education and enforcement but the latter really has to happen now because it has not been happening. I welcome the earlier comments about the launch of the portal in 2024. It will be very interesting to hear how that is shaped. We have to get it right. Is there any legislative barrier to implementing that portal system? The road traffic Bill is going through the Oireachtas at present. We have to get that right. I want the representatives to tell us what is needed in that Bill, so we can help them get that portal.

On the discussion of the ANPR technology by Dublin Bus, I am very encouraged by the strong suggestion that we need this technology and we need to roll it out quickly to get the buses moving. I heard similar from Dublin Bus's colleagues in Bus Éireann at a private meeting I had with its representatives. I want to see us roll out this technology. It will make the jobs of gardaí easier if we do so. I want to know if there are barriers to it.

Fundamentally, I want everybody to understand that this is a chronic situation and we are at a point of total failure. We need to sort that out very quickly. I will use the remainder of my time, three and a half minutes, to give an opportunity to I Bike Dublin and Limerick Pedestrian Network to say anything else they need to say because their members have not had a chance to come in so much. I also want to allow a minute or 90 seconds for members of An Garda Síochána to respond.

Chairman

Did the Deputy indicate who should answer the first question?

Deputy Brian Leddin

I asked I Bike Dublin to respond first, but please leave 90 seconds for the gardaí to respond.

Chairman

Absolutely. I will make sure we get around to everybody.

Mr. Ciarán Ferrie

There is one issue we have not really touched on very much, which is who has responsibility for enforcing road traffic laws. We have a situation where local authorities throughout the country have very different approaches to this. Some of them have traffic wardens and some contract private organisations to carry this out.

There is a need to consider the scope of the offences they can enforce. There is also the role of An Garda Síochána in enforcing road traffic offences. The NTA has a role as regulator for the taxi industry and, to a certain extent, in respect of the detail and design of roads. This creates a real issue, certainly in Dublin, where there are four local authorities, An Garda Síochána and the NTA and there are offences that fall through the cracks. Dublin Street Parking Services is responsible for enforcing parking in Dublin city centre but it often says it cannot enforce a particular matter and one needs to get in touch with the Garda on it. Obviously, the Garda has to make decisions in respect of its resources and the issues on which it focuses, and it may consider the matter is not high on its list of priorities. A simplification of that system such that is a clear definition of responsibilities in terms of who enforces the law and how they do so is needed, as well as an increase in the resources to do that. I wanted to make sure that point was made at this meeting.

Ms Paula Hilman

I thank Mr. Ferrie; that was very helpful. I will hand over to Mr. Murphy, who will address the legislation. To answer specifically on the portal, we have been fully engaged with the Department on the development of the portal and the Garda Síochána (Recording Devices) Bill. We have been involved in that but there is other legislation in which Mr. Murphy was involved previously with regard to specific offences.

Mr. Thomas Murphy

The Deputy asked if the committee could support us in any way. As part of the overall Government road safety strategy, the NTA and An Garda Síochána will later this year consider the development of technology in that regard and the legislation that would allow the likes of the NTA to take prosecutions in lieu of An Garda Síochána. That could be done in a manner similar to the enforcement of bus lanes in Belfast, where a local government agency undertakes that role. I am aware that a Bill was brought forward in 2019 to expand the role of section 81 of the Road Traffic Act to allow for bus lane and footpath enforcement by digital technology. We are working towards that and would welcome the support of the committee in that regard.

Deputy Brian Leddin

I am really happy to hear that Mr. Murphy is positive about that technology. I think he would agree that it would make his work a hell of a lot easier. It is in use in Belfast and the neighbouring jurisdiction. We need to facilitate its use here as quickly as possible. If the committee can help in that regard, that is what we are here to do. The Road Traffic and Roads Bill 2021 is on Second Stage in the Seanad at the moment. It may be the appropriate legislation in this regard. If it is, we would like to hear from the witnesses on that so that we can get it through.

Mr. Thomas Murphy

It is important that we get the digital evidence part of it and that Bill passed first, and then we can build on that. That will give us the foundation for utilising such a system.

Senator Vincent P. Martin

I do not wish to go over ground that has already been covered. I thank all the expert contributors to this important discussion. I was going to make a point in respect of automatic number plate recognition technology but it has more or less been made already by Deputy Leddin. I understand why people adversely impacted by this issue have questions regarding the technology having been rolled out for quite some time in respect of speeding but not in respect of bus lanes. Ms Keane outlined clearly in her submission what it entails and that is in use in other jurisdictions, yet it appears we are pushing an open door today and there are no budgetary restraints or obstacles in the way. Is my understanding correct? I do not wish to ask the witnesses to trespass on the political arena, but where do they see that issue? Ms Keane was very enthusiastic about it and the trials that have happened. It would make a difference. I detect a harmonious approach from all the contributors today but I ask them to drill down among the harmony. People impacted by the illegal use of bus lanes do not have the extra vigilance and enforcement that others enjoy, yet we all seem to be on the same page in respect of that issue. How long will it take before it is brought to fruition? I ask Ms Keane to elaborate further as I know she is an advocate on this matter.

Ms Andrea Keane

I thank the Senator. I will provide detail on the position of Dublin Bus and then pass to our colleagues from An Garda Síochána. To reiterate the points made earlier, we are now at a time when technology and the transport industry are significantly integrating. This creates an opportunity. In particular, we are talking about automatic number plate recognition. Dublin City Council trialled fixed artificial intelligence, AI, pole cameras in 2020 and 2021, although we understand that was not for the purposes of enforcement. If there was consensus for a pilot exercise for 12 months, that would serve as a proof of concept and a learning opportunity for all parties. Dublin Bus vehicles are now equipped with up to 14 high-tech cameras, with extremely advanced CCTV quality and recognition features, even compared with the technology five years ago. That could play a vital role in utilising the technology that is in place to improve the journey for all our customers. If the trial were to take place on a designated spine, that would ensure alignment with the BusConnects project that is coming in and would allow operators, the authorities and the law enforcement agencies to learn from this. We do not believe budget would be a constraint on the pilot. The ability this would bring to improve the average speeds in bus lane timings would more than outweigh any cost of implementing it. I will pass to my colleagues from An Garda Síochána to deal with the legislation aspect.

Senator Vincent P. Martin

I am at an advanced stage of researching a Bill for regulation of the sale, supply and manufacture of number plates. The cloning and fraudulent use of number plates is a problem for An Garda Síochána. Although my Bill is aimed at combatting crime or making crime more difficult, it would come into play in this regard as well. It would be complementary in the sense that there would be fewer cloned plates on roads, I hope.

Ms Paula Hilman

Mr. Murphy is leading on the project of work with the NTA in terms of what has just been mentioned.

Mr. Thomas Murphy

An Garda Síochána completely endorses what was said by the previous speaker on that and we are fully supportive. My research back in 2018 was supportive of that. Colleagues from Dublin Bus worked alongside me on that project. We are fully engaged with them and will be working alongside the NTA to come up with a plan for it. At the bottom of it is the issue of the prosecuting authority. It is about getting over that aspect of enforcement.

Senator Vincent P. Martin

I thank our guests.

Chairman

I will move to the next speaker. We are under time pressure as the select committee will be meeting after this session to discuss legislation. I call Deputy Alan Farrell.

Deputy Alan Farrell

Our guests are very welcome. I thank them for coming in. I do not wish to be repetitive but I want to touch on the points made by the witnesses from An Garda Síochána in respect of social responsibility. I do not want what I am about to say to be taken as a dismissal of that because, of course, gardaí do not put private cars on bicycle lanes or across driveways, among other things. There is a little bit of a hierarchy, however, in terms of the approach taken by members of An Garda Síochána, as I know will be admitted.

At certain times, certain things are just not a priority for good reasons. However, these are big issues. I have always said, as a parliamentarian for 11 years, that it is the little things that make people happy. Getting the council to fix a pothole - to be blunt - often makes them a lot happier than a €600 energy credit over the next six months. There is a need for social responsibility but, in equal measure, there is a need to take these matters seriously when it is possible to do so.

I want to stress the point about enforcement outside of schools. I am fortunate to live in Malahide where we had one of the first school street projects in the country, which is well over two years old. It was met with quite a bit of resistance along the way but it is up and running and is very successful. There has been being a massive increase in the number of children walking and cycling to school in Malahide, which I am thrilled to see. However, parking across driveways for 15 or ten minutes still causes issues on certain streets around schools. The core of Malahide is a couple of hundred years old, therefore, the houses are not young, which invariably means the age profile of the occupants of the houses is a little bit older. These issues are a big deal to them. It means they cannot get out of their homes. In general terms, not specifically Malahide, that hierarchy of approach needs to be looked at. If there are things we need to do in these Houses to support An Garda Síochána, we should do them. Everything we do in these Houses should support safer road usage and safer facilities for pedestrians and cyclists alike. We are getting to the point where we will be able to improve that across the board but, unfortunately, we are coming at it ten, 20 or even 30 years too late in certain instances. It is a cultural thing which we need to change. Covid lockdown was a great help in that process. While it was a tragic set of circumstances for thousands of families, it also gave us an opportunity to take stock again of certain things and that is something which we will all benefit from in the end.

I do not have specific questions for the members of An Garda Síochána other than to note that if we are going to do this together at Government, Oireachtas and local authority level, then when it is pointed out, it is like the nose on one's face. All members have mentioned reporting matters to the Garda when it is in front of them and one member mentioned that the garda drove off. While the garda may have been on an important job, the fact is we must acknowledge that these little matters are meaningful.

Ms Paula Hilman

I support everything the Deputy said. I have responsibility for roads policing but I am also the strategic lead for community engagement and the framework for community policing that is being rolled out. They work in tandem. Many people say roads policing and community policing are very different but they are not. They have much in common and are about working on a local level. We spoke about policing in the capital city, Dublin, but for local towns throughout the country, those local issues are impactive. That is at the heart of what our community policing gardaí do.

In terms of support, we have a separate project of work. We have just rolled out mobility devices to our roads policing gardaí over recent years. More than 600 mobility devices have been provided to our community gardaí. We have branded community Garda cars; white cars with our badge on it. We are very much involved in community policing, problem solving, taking a partnership approach with local communities and joint policing committees, and working on those local issues. It is those local issues that impact on quality of life. We have heard about examples from Limerick and Kerry. It is very much our responsibility. Having listened to what local communities are telling us, those are the issues they want us to work in partnership to resolve.

Mr. Peter Collins

I refer to the points raised about reporting of issues or infractions to the Garda and what the Garda representative said earlier about data-driven resources and decisions. As a person who cycles and walks around the city, you get frustrated reporting sometimes, as reports fall on deaf ears, you feel like you are wasting your time or things takes a long time to happen. Dublin Bus said there were 68 recorded incidents involving cyclists in 2022. If cyclists reported some of the incidents, that number would increase tenfold or a hundredfold.

Deputy Alan Farrell

By a factor.

Mr. Peter Collins

The fact that the statistics indicate there were only 68 incidents means that people give up. They do not bother reporting and it is frustrating for them. I am delighted to see steps being taken to rejuvenate Traffic Watch. I have used this service before and I know people who have used it. You might get passed step A very quickly but then move on to step B and it falls flat on its face. You do not hear from anyone. You get frustrated with the follow-up and so on and so forth. If people see action and activity in response to the reports, unfortunately, it will increase the workload tenfold or a hundredfold but that is where it is at. If people see actions, they will follow through and it will help guide the Garda and everyone else in respect of resources.

Deputy Alan Farrell

I completely agree with Mr. Collins. It is an interesting point. It was said earlier that if people were given a warning, they would not do it again. I believe we are way beyond that. We know people pull in to clearways for a couple of minutes. How many warnings must we give society? We are way past that. I understand why that approach is taken but one gets to a point when one has to say that people have enough warnings. There are enough signs. How many more signs do people need telling them not to pull in?

Mr. Peter Collins

An Garda Síochána will pick up people for whom it will be their first offence but, unfortunately, that will be the collateral damage if we are to put things right for everyone and make the bus lanes safer. These initiatives, such as number plate recognition, have been tried and tested in other jurisdictions. Nothing is stopping us from doing the same here. Yes, it involves granular detail, but we should not be debating these things because they should already be here.

Finally, if people report incidents, they should get responses. Dublin Bus was asked what happens to a complaint. If that information was available and people saw it being followed through, the Traffic Watch complaints desk and phones might light up, but that would be the result of having good resources. It will show that there is a problem and where the resources can be put. This will help the Garda to get funding and so on and so forth.

Chairman

That was very insightful. Senator Ward is next, followed by Senator Gallagher. We will then have to adjourn the meeting because at 5 o'clock we move to a select committee meeting on a separate topic. Therefore, we must keep proceedings moving.

Senator Barry Ward

I am sorry as I will have to leave to attend the Seanad. First, I endorse what has been said about reporting. It is true of any crime that if people do not feel reports are being taken seriously, they will stop making reports as they will feel they are wasting their time. I endorse what has been said.

As a cyclist, I probably do not report enough when I have had close calls. A number of my friends who have GoPro cameras have shown me footage of close calls and negative experiences they have had with all types of motorists and even other cyclists. In that regard, the portal is tremendously interesting but it comes with evidential challenges, of which the Garda will have to take stock. Extra instructions may need to be given to members of the Garda on how quickly they must act on this information, how they will preserve it and make it ready for presentation in court if and when that becomes necessary. It is a positive opportunity to ramp up enforcement and send out a clear message that people who are cavalier with other people's lives, which is what it comes down to, will not be able to walk away from it.

I accept the bona fides of what has been said about the Garda attitude to these things. I confess it has not been my experience. Comments have been made about Garda driving. I work in the criminal courts. I am aware there is huge demand for Garda parking in the surrounds of courts and Garda stations. Sometimes, some members of the Garda do not live up to what we expect of them in terms of driving and parking. It is not a general criticism of An Garda Síochána but there are some members who could be reminded of the situation.

I acknowledge what was said about the number of cameras on buses. I have a difficulty with the idea that the Garda was using bus footage as an enforcement mechanism. The Garda can use bus footage in the same way it can use footage from an individual cyclist, pedestrian or bystander. Bus footage does not have any superior evidential status.

It appears that there is a wealth of bus footage that could be used and co-operation between Dublin Bus and An Garda Síochána might be hugely beneficial.

There are parts of my area where we have extremely high-quality cycling facilities. I am thinking of Frascati Road, for example, where there is a bypass to Blackrock up to a point but unfortunately, it is patchy. As one goes along Rock Road, cyclists and buses share the same space and I am not sure that all Dublin Bus drivers understand that. Cyclists come in different categories and along that route there are some very fast commuter cyclists who just want to get there but there are also more vulnerable people who are slow. There are also people going to school, both children and parents, and I am not sure that all bus drivers understand that driving close to those people is not on, either behind them or next to them. I appreciate what has been said about the education provided for bus drivers but I have felt under pressure sometimes when there has been a very big bus right behind me. I am not a fast cyclist. I have a Dutch bike and it takes its time, unfortunately. When a bus is right up behind people it can really put them under pressure. The witnesses have said that there is experiential training for bus drivers, which I welcome, but it would be good to repeat the message to them that they have a role to play when they are sharing road space with cyclists.

I also want to endorse what Mr. Ferrie said about school transport and encouraging children to cycle to school. There are few enough children in my area who cannot cycle to school except for the lack of proper safe facilities. I was delighted to be involved as a councillor in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown with moving a wall on Convent Road, off Carysfort Avenue, to facilitate children going to Carysfort National School. That hugely increased the number of children who could cycle along that stretch. We know that if the infrastructure is put in place, it increases the numbers who cycle to school. Some schools are doing their best and on the whole, Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown has shown itself to have a very good track record in putting infrastructure in place but it is still patchy. In the same way that the Rock Road, Frascati Road corridor is patchy, the same is true around some schools. Local authorities need to step up to the mark and central Government needs to support them financially to do so.

Finally, I am not in favour of 24-hour bus lanes because we do not have 24-hour bus services. There are places in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown with bus lanes, for example, Rowanbyrn along the Monkstown link road, where there is no bus service to speak of at all. If the bus service matches the bus lanes in terms of frequency and the time during which it operates, that is fine but at the moment we do not have 24-hour bus services so I do not see the merit in having 24-hour bus lanes.

I thank all of our contributors for their time.

Chairman

Thank you very much Senator. I invite our guests to respond.

Mr. Eoin Buckley

I would like to return to a point made by Deputy Farrell earlier about Covid and the need for social distancing during lockdown. We were all walking and cycling more and became aware, as we had to avoid people on paths, just how narrow many of our footpaths are and how little space there is on them. This led to Limerick Pedestrian Network launching a We Need Space campaign in Limerick, with limited success. I agree that there has been much more emphasis since lockdown on the need for pedestrian and cyclist space.

Mr. Ciarán Ferrie

I would like to make one point in response to Senator Ward's comments on 24-hour bus lanes. This is an issue that also arises with cycle lanes. When cycle lanes are not 24-hour, it increases the instances of people parking in them outside of the set times. In surveys we have done, there are higher levels of people parking in cycle lanes either side of the cut-off times. People over-stay the time on the lanes and if, for example, it is nearly 12 o'clock, they just park in the lanes. We believe that 24-hour cycle lanes and bus lanes would remove any ambiguity about whether drivers can park in them and would lead to better compliance.

Chairman

Thank you. We are over time so I will invite Senator Gallagher to have the last word today.

Senator Robbie Gallagher

The Chairman can rest assured that I will be brief. At the outset I thank all of the stakeholders for coming here this afternoon and participating in this very worthwhile discussion. It has been a very interesting meeting. As a culchie and someone who comes from the country, I would take cognisance of what my learned friends from the city have to say on these issues but I was in Amsterdam recently and found the infrastructure there for cyclists and pedestrians very relaxing. It felt very safe to be there. As someone who comes from the country and drives into the city of Dublin two or three days a week, I find it can be quite challenging because it is so busy and there is so much going on. Drivers have to be very alert at all times and to be cognisant of the fact that there are cyclists using the roadway as well. Mention was made earlier of a public information campaign which would not be a bad thing.

I was interested in the points made about the use of technology. We can talk about education and information campaigns and the altering or retrofitting of existing road infrastructure to accommodate pedestrians and cyclists but that is a slow burner. When it comes to the use of technology, reference was made to the port tunnel, where the compliance rate with the speed limits is in the high 90s. I use the port tunnel regularly and it is amazing to see the impact of the technology there on road users. One knows that the technology is there and that if one goes beyond the speed limit, one will end up with a fine and penalty points. It is amazing how that message hits home and perhaps there is a wider role for technology in terms of getting a quick hit on these other issues.

I have a number of questions for An Garda Síochána. Are offences in these areas on the increase? What is the trend there, year on year? Where does technology fit into this in the context of GDPR? Is there an obstacle there or is it a cause of delays? Is satisfying GDPR requirements an issue in the context of the use of technology to detect road offenders?

Mr. Thomas Murphy

I will take those questions. The GDPR issue has been teased out between all of the parties involved in the creation of the new Bill that is currently going through Committee Stage. I am satisfied that we have covered all of the angles on GDPR. That would be the foundation stone for the use of future technology in any enforcement action for road traffic offences, including the uploading of evidence on the portal.

Senator Robbie Gallagher

What is the trend with regard to offences across this area? Are they on the increase or are they declining?

Ms Paula Hilman

I ask the Senator to clarify what specific offences he means.

Senator Robbie Gallagher

I am thinking of things like parking in bus lanes and similar offences. Are they on the increase? What is the general trend?

Ms Paula Hilman

I can talk about An Garda Síochána figures. We heard from some of today's contributors about the different approaches of local authorities but I do not have any local authority figures on this. Since 2018, the number of tickets that An Garda Síochána issued for various parking offences has been on an upward trajectory. Last year, there were over 6,500 tickets issued and this year, to date, over 5,500 have been issued for various parking offences. We are seeing an increase right across the country. The majority of tickets are issued in Dublin, particularly in the city environment, followed by our southern region, including Cork. We are seeing an increase.

If the Senator is asking whether it is increasing, I am not sure if that figure is totally evidence-based or gives a complete picture of what is happening. As we have heard, some of the interactions may involve giving somebody advice and letting them move on and some may be issued by local authorities. It is a more holistic picture than solely the tickets we are issuing in An Garda Síochána.

Senator Robbie Gallagher

If we are to get to a point where there is zero tolerance towards offences here, most people would accept that it is impossible for the Garda to be at the scene of every offence as it occurs. Therefore, we will need to embrace technology in order to bring detection rates much higher than what that they are currently. Would that be a fair comment?

Ms Paula Hilman

That is a totally fair comment. That is what we have been saying about working with partners to maximise that use of technology. We can see it. The example was given of the Port Tunnel and the M7, where we have seen that it changes behaviour when people know there is a consequence to what they do.

Chairman

I will give the last word of the day to Mr. Collins.

Mr. Peter Collins

Regarding the Port Tunnel, there is 99% compliance. It is like Ms Hilman said; if people know there is a penalty, they will behave. With some of the fixed-charge notices or tickets from Dublin City Council's parking department, the numbers are very low. There is one ticket given per day for parking in a clearway. Between June 2021 and January 2022, there were 13 fines given for parking in a cycle lane. The violations are huge in comparison with the detections or fines that are given out. In the same period of June 2021 to January 2022, 14 fines were given by DSPS for parking on a double-yellow line. While there are detections, they are minimal. We are not even scratching the surface of the number of violations we see every day when walking, cycling or travelling on a bus. It is rampant. That is where the problem is. We can only expect to see numbers go up if the violations are actually detected and closed in on.

Chairman

This was a very good session. There is so much more we could say. I have questions of my own but we are not going to get to them, unfortunately. It is the nature of these things that time runs out. We had some very useful engagements. We will revisit this matter another day and at the end of our deliberations we will produce a report. That report will be published and everyone will have an opportunity to see it and review it. All the points made today will be captured and the committee will make a series of recommendations, which hopefully will reflect the discussion we have had. Then it is over to the Government to implement that report. We can shine a light on the issues we have discussed today. I thank all the witnesses for their contributions today.

The joint committee went into private session at 5.04 p.m. and adjourned at 5.09 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 11 October 2022.