Joint Committee on Justice and Equality debate

Recent Issues Relating to An Garda Síochána: Acting Garda Commissioner Dónall Ó Cualáin

Chairman

The purpose of this part of today's meeting is to discuss a range of issues related to An Garda Síochána, including the falsification of Garda breath test data, errors in relation to summonses and fixed charge notices and Dr. Geoffrey Shannon's audit of child protection.

On behalf of the committee I welcome for the first time the new acting Commissioner, Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin, who is joined by Dr. Gurchand Singh, head of the Garda Síochána analysis service; Mr. Michael Finn, assistant Garda commissioner, roads policing and major event management; Mr. John Twomey, deputy Garda commissioner, policing and security; Mr. Michael O’Sullivan, assistant Garda commissioner, security and intelligence; and Mr. John O’Driscoll, assistant Commissioner from the special crime operations unit. Seated behind them are Superintendent Marie Broderick, Office of the Garda Commissioner; Garda Kieran Downey of IT; and Inspector Joseph O’Flynn and Inspector Michael McNulty. They are joined in the public gallery by Mr. Andrew McLindon, director of communications. I ask everyone to switch off their phones please as there is interference.

The format of meeting is the acting Garda Commissioner will be invited to make an opening statement, and this will be followed by a questions and answers session. Before we begin I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite assistant acting Garda Commissioner, Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin, to make his opening statement.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Before I address the topics on which the committee asked me to focus, I would like to take this opportunity to reiterate An Garda Síochána’s commitment to working with all our oversight bodies, including the justice committee, in their roles in holding An Garda Síochána to account which should result in an improvement in the service we provide to the public. We fully recognise that we need to change. We need to change our culture. We need to provide our people with better training, resources and systems. We need to provide a better police service to the public. We have commenced a major programme of reforms to deliver those changes and they are currently being accelerated. In making those necessary changes, it is also vital that we continue to protect and support communities, and while we appreciate the scale of the problems we face, improvements have been made and we still enjoy the trust of the vast majority of the people.

Our public attitude survey shows that the number of victims of crime has fallen in the past year, victim satisfaction has improved, fear of crime is down, and satisfaction with the service we provide is up. In addition, recent activity against organised crime has resulted in many lives being saved, major arrests being made, and large quantities of drugs and firearms taken off our streets. These results are a tribute to the great work done by our people, Garda members, civilians and reserves, throughout the country every day.

I will now address the reports by Assistant Garda Commissioner Michael O’Sullivan into issues surrounding the fixed charge processing system, FCPS, and mandatory alcohol and intoxicant testing, MAT-MIT, checkpoints. These reports found major failings in how we handled both issues over a significant period. When the former Garda Commissioner was here with the committee in March, she apologised for those failures and I reiterate that apology. The reports identified unacceptable failures in our systems, processes, internal oversight, supervision, and management. As Assistant Garda Commissioner O’Sullivan wrote, this reflects poorly on the professionalism of the organisation.

We fully acknowledge the damage this has done to public confidence in An Garda Síochána. All of us in An Garda Síochána must now take responsibility to change our systems, practices, behaviours and culture so these issues cannot happen again and confidence is rebuilt. It is a collective issue and can only be fixed from the top down and the bottom up.

In relation to the FCPS and people being incorrectly penalised, we are examining all fixed charge penalty notices issued since 2006. We have completed 99% of that work. We have written to 11,924 persons who we identified as people whose cases must be appealed. An Garda Síochána is working with the Courts Service to ensure all wrongful convictions are appealed.

In July 2017, we brought 67 test appeal cases before the Dublin Circuit Court to be heard by the President of the Circuit Court. All of the cases were successfully appealed and the Court Service is in the process of updating the records of those concerned and returning fines paid. A further 3,800 are scheduled to be heard in Circuit Courts in December 2017. All the recommendations in Assistant Garda Commissioner O’Sullivan’s report in relation to the FCPS are being implemented either internally or through an existing interdepartmental working group.

On the issue of MAT-MIT checkpoints, a number of measures have been taken to address the deficiencies highlighted. A change to PULSE in August 2017 means that only essential data are now collected. The Medical Bureau of Road Safety has commenced a tender process for new Dräger devices which will improve recording and new and improved training methods are being developed. We have also adopted a new approach to roads policing, including the introduction of a roads policing bureau, which will assist in this area by strengthening governance.

In addition, checkpoint incidents identified in Assistant Garda Commissioner O’Sullivan’s report that were associated with implausible breath test data have been referred to each of the regional assistant commissioners for further examination. This process is being overseen by the assistant commissioner in charge of roads policing. We are also awaiting the report by Crowe Horwath for the Policing Authority and should it identify any additional issues, they will be addressed.

The decision to remove a child from their parents or guardians under section 12 of the Child Care Act is never taken lightly by An Garda Síochána. Following recommendations contained in the Ombudsman for Children’s report into the two incidents of the removal of Roma children from their families by An Garda Síochána, known as the Logan report, An Garda Síochána engaged the services of Professor Geoffrey Shannon to conduct an independent audit of the exercise by An Garda Síochána of section 12 of the Child Care Act 1991. Professor Shannon’s comprehensive and detailed report was published on 29 May 2017. All the findings were accepted by An Garda Síochána.

While Professor Shannon’s report highlights important issues in relation to training, PULSE data and inter-agency working that need to be addressed, most critically it did not find any abuse of section 12 by members of An Garda Síochána, nor did it find any evidence of racial profiling. As Professor Shannon wrote, “the overwhelming finding in this audit is that Garda members commit great efforts to treating children sensitively and compassionately when a child has been removed under Section 12”.

Since the report’s launch on 29 May 2017, we have begun to adopt the report’s recommendations. An implementation plan has been developed by An Garda Síochána to ensure that all the recommendations are progressed. An Garda Síochána will continue to work closely with Professor Shannon to ensure implementation of his recommendations and we have already liaised with him on several occasions on this issue. The newly established national child protection unit at the Garda national protective services bureau is leading out on progressing the recommendations. Professor Shannon has also accepted our invitation to assist and participate in future child protection training for Garda members. An Garda Síochána, in co-operation with Tusla, is in the process of developing a model of inter-agency working which will meet the standards expressed in the report.

I want to give the committee my commitment as acting Garda Commissioner to ensuring the protection and support of communities while introducing the necessary changes to An Garda Síochána. I and my management team look forward to engaging with the committee in a constructive and positive manner on these and other issues with the joint focus of improving the service An Garda Síochána provides every day that protects and supports communities throughout the country.

Chairman

I thank the acting Garda Commissioner. I call Deputy Colm Brophy.

Deputy Colm Brophy

I thank the acting Garda Commissioner for coming before the committee. I want to echo what Mr. Ó Cualáin said in his opening remarks that it is important always to realise and remember that the members of An Garda Síochána are out every day, often putting themselves at risk, to enforce the law, and keep us safe as a community and society. In looking at what are major failings, and this committee will do so with the acting Garda Commissioner and his management team in some detail, it is important to keep in mind that it is the same gardaí who have failed us who are putting their lives at risk and have reversed the situation in some of the main areas of crime, particularly in tackling the gangland scourge of recent years.

The heart of why the acting Garda commissioner is before the committee, and why his predecessor was here, is that what happened is totally unacceptable. The falsification of data by any organisation is wrong; the falsification of data by the State's custodians of law and order is therefore doubly wrong. I appreciate the work done by the assistant Garda Commissioner in the investigation of this and some of the practices it has demonstrated, but I will focus on one particular aspect of this although not in a "gotcha" sense. I recognise the comments by the chairperson of the Policing Authority.

The Garda report and the acting Garda Commissioner's comments referred to the falsification of data being so obvious that there will be further investigation into the actions conducted at a divisional level, but this poses a direct problem. The members of An Garda Síochána, through their representatives, the Garda Representative Association, GRA, are effectively accusing the management of An Garda Síochána of having been responsible for causing this. Ironically, because they did not state this at the beginning, they are saying that much of this increased falsification came about because of a culture or pressure to raise the figures. How does Mr. Ó Cualáin propose to deal with a situation whereby management is trying to investigate the matter and then engage in disciplinary measures arising from that, where those who maybe disciplined believe that the ones disciplining them are the ones responsible?

What actions does Mr. Ó Cualáin propose to take if it does transpire to be the case - I want to be careful in how I phrase this - that, in the words of the Policing Authority's chairperson, there is an indication that, although it might not have been a direct instruction, there was an implied culture that this needed to be falsified by substantially more senior people with An Garda Síochána than the front-line gardaí taking out the tests?

I cannot see how this process of investigating and drilling down the line will work. I accept that rank and file gardaí participated in this. They had to, given that it happened across the country. However, I am sorry to say that the real failure was a management one, and not just of an individual manager in an area. It was a complete cultural and management failure to deliver a proper system. That is what needs to be changed. That is what Mr. Ó Cualáin, his team and the ongoing review of the Garda need to do. If the GRA's accusation is correct, how does Mr. Ó Cualáin propose to deal with the issue?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

I will start with the Deputy's last comment. We have already taken action in respect of the GRA's comments. We have asked Assistant Garda Commissioner O'Sullivan to seek any evidence, including names of people, so that we can establish an evidence trail, go to those people and get their versions of what is being put out there, that being, management was in some way putting pressure on front-line members.

The Deputy's opening comments were right - it is unacceptable. However, a distinction is to be drawn with the MAT checkpoints, which are in statute with the purpose of giving An Garda Síochána the means to play its part in reducing road deaths. I would be surprised if any manager in charge of a district or division did not ask and direct everyone under his or her control to engage fully with that process in terms of the enforcement of the Road Traffic Acts. That is the manager's duty.

Regarding the taking of breath samples where the falsification may have occurred, however, there is no evidence to suggest that anyone at management level asked people to falsify records. Of course managers would have put pressure on their people to ensure that they maintained acceptable levels of enforcement across our lifesaver offences, which include drunk-driving.

Assistant Garda Commissioner O'Sullivan has gone back out and addressed the issue raised by the GRA. If the committee wishes, he can speak in more detail about his findings in that regard and whether there was pressure from management to falsify records, which is a different contention from the one that managers were just doing their duty and ensuring that the laws of the land were being enforced by the people who had been given the job to do so.

We play a significant part in the enforcement aspect of the three Es, which include enforcement and education. We play a significant part in the education process as well. The final E is engineering, in which we also have a part, in that we meet local authorities on a regular basis to ensure that, where we see blackspots emerging, we can let them know about the number of accidents happening there. With all of that combined, there was a consistent reduction in the number of road deaths during the period covered by the report, that being, from 2006 onwards. Assistant Garda Commissioner Finn can give the committee the relevant details. It shows that all of the components together were having the right impact, namely, reducing the number of fatalities on our roads. As a backdrop to that, however, and where there is supporting evidence of wrongdoing by any member at any rank, I fully accept that people have to be held accountable.

Deputy Colm Brophy

I will follow up on Mr. Ó Cualáin's answer. There is a problem with it. He stated that management in the Garda, particularly at divisional level, was applying pressure to ensure that enforcement took place in the form of conducting the tests to deal with the scourge of drink-driving. One of two problems stems from that. Either management accepted reports from subordinates that were blatantly false and had such a poor management structure in place that it could not pick up on just how false those reports were, or it turned a blind eye to how false they were or everyone was in agreement. I acknowledge Mr. Ó Cualáin's point that the figures were decreasing, but it is not credible that a senior management that knew what it was doing within a proper management structure - I keep referring to it as "management" rather than "Garda officers" or whatever - could believe that this level of activity was taking place when there could not have been enough hours in the day, cars on the road at certain places or drivers to stop.

It took months for this situation to come out, and then the Garda investigated and reverted to us. Members of the Oireachtas and members of the public are being asked to believe one of two things. Either management was so inept that it could not work within its own structures to figure out what was happening or gardaí actively colluded together to do it. Either scenario is an awful outcome. It is difficult to believe that rank and file gardaí continued doing this for so long and it was not picked up on without there being some type of a nod-and-a-wink culture or one that turned a blind eye. Is Mr. Ó Cualáin saying that did not happen?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

I will ask Assistant Garda Commissioner O'Sullivan to go into the detail, but management would have been focused on the number of MAT checkpoints being held, not on the level of breathalysing at a particular checkpoint. If the Deputy does not mind, I will ask the assistant commissioner to outline what he found in that regard during his examination of the matter.

Mr. Michael O'Sullivan

The report must be read in its entirety because a multiplicity of factors impacted on what occurred. I agree that there was a poor management structure. There is no doubt that it played a critical part. I will focus on management structures for a moment. There were divisions that did not have chief superintendents during the period due to the cutbacks. There were divisions that did not have divisional traffic inspectors. There were regions that did not have regional traffic superintendents. The traffic bureau had no dedicated assistant commissioner from 2008 to 2017. It had seven chief superintendents who stepped in and out alongside their various other functions. There was no superintendent in charge of operations at the Garda national traffic bureau, GNTB, from 2008 to 2017. Many of the issues in question were highlighted in previous reports by the inspectorate, including in 2008, but those reports were not implemented because of the period of austerity.

Management was one factor in this situation. Education was another. There was no training or continuing professional development, CPD, from 2008 onwards in the areas covered by these two reports.

As to the suggestion that there was no education or awareness, there was an awareness that MAT checkpoints were a critical point of the lifesaver strategy.

There was no awareness that the recording of breath tests was a measurable outcome. We found that, across the ranks and associations and all the way up to the top, there was no awareness of the breath test tab on PULSE incidents, where breath tests were recorded. Consequently, there was no supervision of the data, no measurement and no attention paid to them across the divisions. It was not any part of any performance management, promotion or career advancement process. It simply sat there until the issue arose. I agree that this was poor management but that is the situation in which the organisation found itself at that particular time.

Deputy Colm Brophy

I was fairly happy with the comments until this point but I have a real problem now. I always find that when organisations make mistakes, the mistake is made in a self-serving way. I hope An Garda Síochána does not go down this route. I am sorry but the assistant commissioner's answer is unacceptable. He started by saying that there was a cutback here and a cutback there and that An Garda Síochána did not have this. He said gardaí were not really aware of the number of breath tests being carried out or that they were part of something which they monitored. If nobody was aware of any of that, it is very funny that, instead of not recording it or recording little or no information, everybody decided - very conveniently - to record massive increases in the numbers, which suited themselves and a narrative that flattered the activity level of An Garda Síochána. It was a very self-serving mistake, regardless of who was in place or the lack of management. Mr. O'Sullivan said he was not aware that it was quantifiable but people did not simply record a zero entry while telling their boss they had been out doing the tests for an hour; they made up an enlarged figure that made everybody look good. It only takes one or two managers in any place to have some integrity and, when they see something careering off the rails, to call a halt. Unfortunately, in this area nobody did.

Chairman

Does Mr. Ó Cualáin wish to respond?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

We had a large cadre of management in An Garda Síochána, at both garda and civilian level, and I am certain that the vast majority of them are people of the highest ethical codes and values. If they had seen anything in the nature of what the Deputy is putting forward, or it had came out in a report, they would have notified us much sooner.

At the moment the only report that I have, as the acting Garda Commissioner, is the one that Assistant Commissioner O'Sullivan has given to me. There is an additional piece of work he has directed local Garda chiefs to carry out on the data that apply to their areas. We are also awaiting the publication of the Crowe Howarth piece of work. We should wait to see the outcome of all of that before we decide our next steps. As I have said, it is unacceptable that people would do what was proposed by the assistant commissioner in his report. At whatever level to which this may be attributable, those people must be held to account. That is on the basis of what we know to date but when we get the full information that is required, we can then move on to making decisions about what we will do next in the context of holding people to account.

Deputy Jack Chambers

I thank the acting Garda Commissioner and his team for coming in to the committee and I wish him well in his new role. I also acknowledge the work of Assistant Commissioner O'Sullivan in what was a comprehensive report. As Deputy Brophy said, it is important that the Joint Committee on Justice and Equality recognises and acknowledges the great work done across all levels of An Garda Síochána. Reference was made to the public attitudes survey and it is mainly positive. It is important that this is mentioned because it is difficult in a process of change when one has issues such as this to deal with. I reiterate and echo the comments made by Dr. Geoffrey Shannon about the sensitive and compassionate use of section 12. While changes can be made, one of my concerns when this committee engaged with Dr. Shannon was that sometimes, when there is an excessive analysis of this, there could be a reluctance to use section 12. It is important that members of An Garda Síochána continue to have confidence in using section 12. It has been found that gardaí have been using it appropriately. Tusla also needs to address some of its issues in respect of not following through and giving feedback to members of An Garda Síochána when they are dealing with particular matters.

I shall now turn to the breath test issue. In his report, Assistant Commissioner O'Sullivan referred to the over-ambitious scheduling of mandatory alcohol testing, MAT, checkpoints with local management as a factor in some Garda members inflating breath test figures. Mr. O'Sullivan's report states, "This examination has found that by failing to review the capacity to carry out the number of ... checkpoints which were being set down for front line members, management were intentionally or inadvertently applying pressure and that this was a contributory cause which lead to the discrepancy between the PULSE and Dräger breath test figures." Does this give some weight to the Garda Representative Association, GRA, line that there was some element of pressure? Why does Mr. O'Sullivan feel that management made over-ambitious scheduling of checkpoints? Will Mr. O'Sullivan tell the committee what was the reason or rationale behind that?

Mr. Michael O'Sullivan

Chairman

I am withholding a comment I would have passed at this point, but others will no doubt take it up. I call Senator Frances Black.

Senator Frances Black

I thank all the witnesses for coming before the committee. I will speak from my experience of working in another area. Regarding Dr. Geoffrey Shannon's report, I worked with a family who had a child about who they were very concerned and the way the Garda members treated the family was fantastic. One garda in particular gave them unbelievably good support, more than Tusla, social services or any of the other organisations. In my own experience in that area, they were absolutely fantastic.

I will not ask any questions about the breath-testing.

I feel like we have been here loads of times previously and I would like to move on from it. I would like for it not to happen again and I would like to refer to Mr. Ó Cualáin's comments about the culture within the Garda. I imagine it is quite toxic and this is of concern. He referred to the culture changing, better training, resources and systems and providing a better police service to the public. How will all this happen? It will be a huge undertaking. What needs to be done? What does he intend to do in this regard? Could he give us an idea? It would be great to apply the model the Garda uses for children in other areas.

I am specifically interested in the area of addiction. I would like those with addiction to receive a little more empathy and compassion from gardaí, as well as older people and victims of crime. This should be examined because that is where we need gardaí to be to the fore. We need that feeling of security. How does Mr. Ó Cualáin think he can change the culture? What does he need to do around it?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

It is broadly acknowledged that changing culture is a difficult task. However, we will not be discouraged by that. At a high level, strong leadership is needed at the start. Leaders who are convinced of the path they must take are needed and then every member of staff in the organisation, including every garda, civilian and Garda reservist, needs to be on board with the support of their management to achieve what we all know is achievable but which will take some time. It is not as if we have not started that work. We have an ambitious programme of reform and renewal, which kicked off last year, because we got a commitment to investment and, as one of the Senator's colleagues said, external support is important for this. We will not do this on our own. We have a big part to play in it but we will need the continued support of all our oversight bodies to ensure we leverage and get the best bounce out of every penny invested in the organisation over the coming years with this ambitious programme of reform.

Some of the issues we have had to answer the committee on during our past few visits go back to bad systems and processes, which need to be updated. I have been all over the country and visited staff at all ranks. There is a huge level of goodwill among the public because of gardaí going above and beyond the call of duty but we need to ensure the values they bring to the front line and the new code of ethics - it was one of the first jobs of the Policing Authority - are embedded in the coming months and are to the forefront of all our people's minds as they go about their duty. That applies to everyone in the organisation. There is a multiplicity of factors and it will not be easy but we have made some gains in that space. There is a challenge for me, and for my management. We have to ensure we get out to the people on the front line and ensure they are being supported but we need all of them to make sure we make progress in this area. It is one of our top priorities that after all the small pieces of the mosaic are fitted together, our overall culture will be the overall winner from that in the context of doing our job in a much more transparent and better way where our ethics and values are easily seen by all concerned to be the backbone of what we do.

Mr. John Twomey

I would like to add some specifics to the acting Garda Commissioner's comments. It is interesting that the Senator asked this question because we launch our internal culture audit today. Everybody who works in the organisation will begin today to take part in a culture audit, which is being led by Mr. Singh who can outline the details. We will identify what makes up the fabric of the organisation and what makes us think the way we think and act and behave in the way we do. That has not been done previously. This will be a benchmark, which will lead us to a detailed action plan as to how we can improve on the learning. All these reports provide us with opportunities to learn and the culture audit will do that as well.

We as a senior management team will undergo training on the code of ethics next Tuesday. We will provide strong leadership by acting on, and living up, to the nine pillars of the code ourselves. We will lead that from the front and demonstrate that in everything we do, including every action we take and every decision we make. From a cultural perspective and from an ethics perspective, we will provide that leadership from the front.

The Senator mentioned victims. We have a great deal of work done in this area and we will continue to improve that. How we provide empathy to all victims is one area that has shown considerable improvement in our public attitudes survey. We have victim services offices set up all around the country. We have a protective services bureau to provide specific highly trained skills to the most vulnerable victims. In the area of addiction, we have a great deal of work ongoing with other agencies, particularly in the various drug treatment centres in Dublin city centre as a key example. There is a lot of work going on and all the piecing together will improve bit by bit, day by day, the service that we provide but there will always be room to improve. This is a process and improvements will always be needed but these are simple examples from a cultural and ethical perspective, as well as from the perspective of victims, of the detail regarding the work we are doing.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I dtús báire, ba mhaith liom gach dea-ghuí a thabhairt don Choimisinéir gníomach. Má éiríonn go maith leis is le leas na tíre a bheadh sé. De bharr sin guím gach rath air.

Like other members, I would like to acknowledge, notwithstanding the various issues we are discussing and that I will raise, the good work of An Garda Síochána. In particular, I have witnessed at first hand the impact in my community and in my own locality that good community policing has made. I am very much an advocate of this model and I am sure Assistant Commissioner Finn can attest to the good impact community policing has had in Cork. Notwithstanding that, I echo Deputy Brophy's comments. Many of these issues, some of which we have not touched on such as the financial issues in the Templemore training college, fixed charge penalty notices, and breath tests, are utterly unacceptable and are a poor reflection on the manner in which the organisation has conducted itself in recent years.

I will focus on the fixed charge penalty notice issue. Since 2006, 146,865 summonses have been issued incorrectly to people who subsequently paid a fine, 14,700 of whom were convicted in court and paid a second fine. I am aware a process has begun whereby the Garda is writing to all those affected explaining what happened and proposing how to reimburse fines and correct records. The letters state if they consent, An Garda Síochána will commence a process of appealing the fines on their behalf and so on.

What has been the take-up so far and what will be the cost of the process under way?

Mr. Michael Finn

A little more than 3,800 people have indicated that they wish us to pursue an appeal on their behalf and the Courts Service has indicated that these appeals will be scheduled for December. It is an ongoing process. We initially wrote to almost 8,500 people. We identified another 2,000 while the process was under way and I have written to them also. I expect the number who wish to pursue an appeal to increase as people take stock of the letter we sent and receive advice from their solicitor on whether to pursue the matter. As I said, 3,800 have indicated that they wish us to pursue it. There are many people we have not managed to contact. We initially wrote to them by registered post. The letters have now been sent to local Garda stations for efforts to be made to contact them. We have tracked down almost 1,500 people by chasing up the letters and going door to door to ask whether people have moved house and, if so, ascertain a subsequent address for them. The process is by no means finished, but a tremendous amount of work has been done. When I started this process in April, we went back to the very start and widened the scope in order that we would be guaranteed not to miss anything. We examined every case where there was even a possibility of a person having received the wrong letter or having been prosecuted erroneously. I think 99% of relevant cases have been identified. It is a big process which is taking a considerable amount of our time and court time, but considerable progress is being made.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

What is the expected cost?

Mr. Michael Finn

The Courts Service would have to be consulted to get an exact figure, but an indicative cost for the first batch of 8,500 is in the region of €1.6 million, less than €1 million of which had been paid. If we were reimbursing those that had been paid, it would be just short of €1 million based on the 8,500 cases the Courts Service examined in approximately September.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

That could take a few years because some of these initiatives are very complex, they involve information and communication technology, ICT, and bringing in skilled resources from outside. In order to get it up and running we had to use whatever resources we had until such time as we got the civilian skilled resource to take on some aspects of that role. We are in conversation with the authority and I welcome that level of scrutiny because it is important that when we go to that forum we deliver an accurate picture of where our modernisation and renewal programme, MRP, is at any given time. There is so much work going on in that area that it is important to have people internally who can track it for us and the external scrutiny that will call us to account for where we are at any given time.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

While I understand that there might be differences in interpretation, they range across a wide area. The gap between nine and 50 is a large number of recommendations on which to differ. The process of replacing the Garda Commissioner will be lengthy. What does the acting Commissioner intend to do to ensure that the pace of reform while that is going on does not slow but continues?

Will the acting Commissioner clarify for the committee the exact process for the reopening of Garda stations? At the Committee of Public Accounts last Thursday he said in reply to one question: "What the Government does is the Government's business. All I can do is based on what went in and what came back. There was a need to await the final report, I would say." The acting Commissioner also said he did as the Government asked him to do.

I had sight of a response to a parliamentary question from Deputy Farrell on the reopening of Rush Garda station which states: "...the Garda Commissioner is primarily responsible for the effective and efficient use of the resources available to An Garda Síochána and I, as Minister, have no role in the matter." It is important to clarify who exactly takes the final decision. Is it the decision of the acting Commissioner alone on the back of recommendations to reopen Stepaside or any other Garda station? What is the exact relationship between Government decisions and the acting Commissioner's role in decisions like that?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

In response to the question on the pace of reform in respect of our overall MRP, I am focusing at this juncture on ensuring that we are properly resourced at management level to ensure that our ambitious programme of reform moves apace. We have laid out certain milestones which we hope to achieve over the coming 12 months. This is a five year programme which started last year. We learn more as we move on and as the environment changes we may have to re-prioritise. That is part and parcel of every major programme of reform. We have to ensure that the critical enablers that will allow us deliver on the overall programme are put in place as soon as possible and that includes the civilianisation, the skilled resources coming into the organisation to allow Garda members work on the front line and to take on additional jobs to get us through this phase and to get our own people, who would be employees of this organisation to a level of skill such that they can, once our reforms have been delivered, deliver the ordinary continuing change scheme in a professional and efficient manner. That is in addition to ensuring that we continue to provide the public with a quality service for its protection, and support communities. That is our first objective. That is the day job and we cannot take our eye off that. We also have to ensure, however, as a second plank that we move on with our modernisation and renewal programme.

Assistant Commissioner John O'Driscoll, who is the author of the interim report, is here. Last week at the Committee of Public Accounts, I said that the programme for Government contained a commitment on the reopening of six Garda stations on a pilot basis. That came to An Garda Síochána. It was then a matter for us, based on our knowledge and professional opinion, to decide where these things might happen, based on the high level criteria that came with the correspondence from the Department. Assistant Commissioner O'Driscoll did that work and he can explain in detail how he approached coming to a conclusion on where those six stations might be. That is a matter for me as acting Commissioner to recommend. It is a matter for the Commissioner of the day to decide where those stations are and to recommend them to Government. Assistant Commissioner O'Driscoll can give more detail on that.

Mr. John O'Driscoll

This process commenced with a letter from the then Minister for Justice and Equality to the Commissioner asking the Commissioner to identify six stations for reopening. It set down particular criteria: a rural and urban inclusion and premises that remain in State ownership. The first task was to identify which stations remain in State ownership and that involved interaction with the Office of Public Works, OPW. A significant number of stations had been sold and those remaining I examined in detail. In the Dublin Metropolitan Region, DMR, there were only four available to consider. That made the task in Dublin easier than elsewhere in the country. The acting Commissioner, when he appeared before the Committee of Public Accounts, stressed the importance of local involvement in this decision making and I engaged with the assistant commissioners in the regions seeking their input and asking them to engage with relevant stakeholders.

There is a situation in An Garda Síochána such that of the commissioners who were serving on the day I was promoted in May of last year only one remains. All the others have been appointed since that date. I engaged with particular assistant commissioners at an early stage but there was a change in management and in Cork every chief superintendent had changed. I went back and sought an input from the new management team in the southern region and as recently as 19 September I received a response from that region which differs from responses I received earlier from a different management team. The emphasis is on ensuring that there is a local input, that I am not the one who is choosing a station in Donegal or west Cork or wherever.

On the basis of the criteria given to us, it was obvious that Stepaside would be number one of the four. I suggested that if there was to be a second one it would be Rush but there were criteria for circumstances where there would be two stations chosen in Dublin. The second station cannot be considered as a definite decision until such time as the other stations around the country have been identified. I expect that I will be able to conclude the work I am doing within the next two weeks. I can say categorically that no person has come to me asking that a specific station be opened. I have sight of all the parliamentary questions put by various public representatives about stations to be reopened. I stated earlier that I believed I would have the report completed on an earlier date. The then Minister for Justice and Equality in concluding the letter to the Commissioner asked to be kept informed of current developments and she and the current Minister for Justice and Equality have sought that information.

I have advised them that it has taken me longer than expected; that I have sought additional information from the various regions and all of that will be given in detail in the final report.

In the interim report I have stated that I believe caution should be exercised in terms of the use of crime statistics as a significant indicator of where a Garda station would be built or opened, because on that basis alone, one would open a station on one day and close it a month later and open up a different station in the following week. There has been a greater emphasis on population. I have also emphasised that there is a need to consider that in certain locations in this country at any particular time there is a temporary population, which far exceeds the population of an area, whether that be at Dublin Airport, which has 30 million people passing through it, or Dublin Port, or a college environment. I have suggested other criteria that perhaps should be taken into consideration when reaching a conclusion. In any event I will submit a final report to the acting Commissioner in the next two weeks, in which there will be recommendations in respect of six stations. It will be a matter for the acting Commissioner to decide which stations will be opened and to inform the Minister of that decision and the timeline involved. That will be determined following additional consultation with the OPW on the expense and level of work required in advance to bring a station into operation.

Chairman

I thank Assistant Commissioner O'Driscoll. Deputy Ó Laoghaire is offering but he must be very brief as we must make progress.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

We were given a great deal of information, but the question I specifically asked was who takes the final decision on the opening of a Garda station. Assistant Commissioner O'Driscoll said: "It will be a matter for the Acting Commissioner to decide which stations will be opened and to inform the Minister of that decision" but Acting Commissioner Ó Cualáin said: "make a recommendation to Government". I want to clarify whether the acting Commissioner makes a recommendation and ultimately it is the final decision of Government.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Yes, I will be making a recommendation to the Department based on Assistant Commissioner O'Driscoll's report and the evidence he supplies to me.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

A decision by Government.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Yes.

Chairman

Okay Deputy. I call Senator Martin Conway.

Senator Martin Conway

I did not realise that the opening and closing of Garda stations was on the agenda today.

Chairman

Let me clarify, it had not been advised and I consulted with the secretariat that if the acting Commissioner was happy to respond, as he has already addressed this issue at another committee, I was happy to let him proceed.

Senator Martin Conway

I have a number of other issues that are unrelated to what is on the agenda for today's meeting that I would have liked to raise as well. I do not blame members for raising issues, but I would prefer a scenario where time is put aside for members to ask questions on whatever they like. As that is not the case, I have opted not to ask the questions in other areas. Be that as it may, the information we received and the engagement has been extremely useful. I have always contended that we should consider mobile Garda stations in areas such as seaside resorts. For example some 1.5 million people visit the Cliffs of Moher every year and the Garda station in Lahinch was closed. I think there is a very strong case for the Garda station in Lahinch to be opened for a number of months in the year, given the tragedies at the Cliffs of Moher and the numbers who visit the Wild Atlantic Way. We may have that discussion on another day.

I welcome the acting Commissioner and I am delighted he has the opportunity to lead the force. It is a great honour for him personally. I have no doubt he will do an exceptionally good job. I am sure he agrees with me that it is important that everybody acknowledges the great work that is being done by the 14,000 gardaí on the ground. While there are serious challenges, overall things are far better than they are in many other countries. I am sure the acting Commissioner would also agree with me that it is important for all elements in the administration of justice to be on song, and that includes the Oireachtas committees, the Policing Authority and the various organs. That also includes the Garda Representative Association, GRA. Would the acting Commissioner agree with me that the comments from the GRA did An Garda Síochána a disservice?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

I thank the Senator for his comments and acknowledgment of the work being done by our front-line staff. In that context, I include all of our staff because our support staff, back at the ranch as it were, also play a vital role in all of that.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Without going into individual cases, any instance where a citizen has been affected adversely by inefficiencies in any process in An Garda Síochána will have to be addressed and we will engage fully in the context of ensuring that all of those matters are brought to a conclusion for all those individual citizens who were affected.

Mr. Michael Finn

In terms of data protection in respect to the people who have been convicted, I have put a note on our system that all of the persons who we have identified were wrongfully brought before the courts and that there is a caveat on anything we have recorded to say that this matter will be subject to an appeal in the courts.

Chairman

I thank Senator Conway and call Deputy Clare Daly.

Deputy Clare Daly

I will try to be brief and I hope the replies will be brief.

My first question relates to Dr. Geoffrey Shannon's report, the second the fixed charge notices and third, the maths test.

I note that the acting Commissioner has said that he has begun to adapt the recommendations of Dr. Geoffrey Shannon. How many have been implemented to date?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

May I ask Assistant Commissioner O'Driscoll to give the Deputy the detail as he is in charge of that area.

Mr. John O'Driscoll

I sit on a strategic liaison committee with senior officials in Tusla and we have undertaken the task of monitoring the implementation of the recommendations. We have been in discussion with Dr. Geoffrey Shannon in recent weeks and have had numerous meetings with him. We have agreed to implement all the recommendations with slight changes to some of them.

These changes were agreed in discussion with Dr. Shannon. Most of the recommendations will take time to implement in full but many have already commenced.

One of the most important developments in An Garda Síochána has been the creation of the Garda National Protective Services Bureau. Many of the issues relating to vulnerable victims, children in particular, have been brought into this unit and expertise has been developed within it. The bureau also has a specific unit dealing with child protection issues called the national child protection unit. This is distinct from the Garda national child protection unit because it has been agreed that there will be permanent Tusla involvement in the former. Having the agencies working together is a key recommendation in the report.

Deputy Clare Daly

I apologise for interrupting. I know a number of the recommendations are for the medium term but my question was on recommendations that could have been implemented by now. I assume from the assistant commissioner's answer that none of these has been implemented. I will assist him on the issue. Has the recommendation to issue a laminated card to all gardaí been implemented? Has the recommendation on the recording of information on the PULSE system, which Dr. Geoffrey Shannon designed, been implemented? Has the recommendation on safety belts and car seats been implemented? How many of these relatively simple measures have been implemented?

Mr. John O'Driscoll

The laminated card is prepared and, following discussion, we added considerably to the information provided. A recommendation was made that a particular amount of information would be provided on the card, which has developed into an accordion-style document with considerably more information provided on it. I understand the card is ready to roll.

We have engaged with our transport section and other expertise on the child seat issue. It is complicated in so far as there is not a one-size-fits-all seat for children. A whole series of seats would have to be available to a patrol car. We have engaged with our transport section to find the best solution for this.

Mr. Michael O'Sullivan

We need to highlight, as I stated, from the basis of what we examined in detail, whether a lot of the recommendations had been taken on board, but they were not. The ICT budget did not exist, hence we had to operate a system on a piecemeal basis which is what created many of these issues. It does not matter who was watching. These issues would still have arisen because in my view, and in the view of the other external agencies which examined the system, it needed to be rebuilt, not patched up. I highlighted the changes in staff.

We should await the report of the Policing Authority which is due in the next week or two. Part of its terms of reference are the role of behaviour on the various ranks during this period in relation to both reports. The supervisory environment and the role played by the various supervisory ranks are also part of the terms of reference. They also include a review and assessment of the process employed, the outcomes of each and the investigations carried out by me. It would be very wise, in relation to those issues in particular, to await the independent examination which is due next week or the week after.

Deputy Clare Daly

Is it not a contradiction for the assistant Commissioner to say it did not matter who was watching given his earlier point that nobody was watching because the Garda did not have the people in place? When I pointed out that there was an assistant commissioner in place who had this specific brief in his portfolio, the assistant Commissioner stated the situation was a little disjointed. This links to the other point in his report that the PULSE bulletins issued to ordinary gardaí contained extensive and confusing information. Who designs these systems and who is responsible for them? Where is the management oversight? That is the question to which we keep returning.

I will now address mandatory alcohol testing, MAT, because I am conscious of time.

The first point in that regard is that there appears to be a writing out of the involvement of the Medical Bureau for Road Safety in this from the narrative. While it is true that there was correspondence from the RSA in 2014 relating to the breath test issue, it took over a year for the Garda to begin an investigation into the matters. Throughout that time the Garda was involved with the medical bureau, which is responsible for this equipment. The bureau is not mentioned in the narrative or the report at all, yet the acting Garda Commissioner tells us today, as if it is a great step forward, that one of the solutions is that the medical bureau has commenced a tender process for the new Drager devices which will improve recording.

Is it not the case that this process started in summer 2015 and, following detailed consultation between the medical bureau and the Garda, the Garda requested some information that it now does not want in that process? Even though the medical bureau was ready to go with new equipment over a year ago the Garda changed the specification, which will cost considerable amounts of money. As Professor Denis Cusack said in information we got under freedom of information, it will put back the entire process of procurement, approval, testing and ultimately the supply of the new devices for between 18 and 24 months. A process that management in An Garda Síochána was involved in with the medical bureau to get new devices has been kicked to touch. Despite the acting Garda Commissioner telling the committee in his introduction that a new system is coming forward as if that is great, he forgets that this was in train two years ago.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

I will ask the assistant commissioner, Michael Finn, to respond.

Mr. Michael Finn

I am familiar with the process with the Medical Bureau for Road Safety. It is providing new equipment. The Dragers we have are over ten years old. A decade in the technology world means they are totally obsolete. Undoubtedly, we must replace them. The Medical Bureau for Road Safety supplies the equipment to us. It owns them and we use them. Certainly, what has happened in recent times has caused us to go back to the bureau and use the learning we have acquired from that because we do not want it to happen again. We have asked the Medical Bureau for Road Safety to change the specifications in some regards so we can prevent what we are dealing with today from recurring. I was not aware that it will set it back two years. That is not my understanding of the current position. The devices have gone out to tender and that tender process is being re-examined. I am not aware that it will kick it back two years-----

Deputy Clare Daly

It is in correspondence issued to the Garda, which we got under freedom of information, in which the medical bureau clearly points out that this is the case and that the process was ongoing, against the backdrop where the Garda had knowledge of the problem.

Mr. Michael Finn

I am not aware of the date of that correspondence. I am relaying my experience in the context of recent meetings I had with the bureau on the procurement process. I do not believe it will cause us to wait another two years before we have the new devices. In fact, I believe we will have them in 2018. That will prevent a recurrence of the difficulties which brought us to the current position.

Deputy Clare Daly

Perhaps it is the fear of outside influence, but the point is that the Medical Bureau for Road Safety had that information all along. It could do the tallies on the devices. There was all the searching around for information on the number of breath tests but the number was known if somebody had picked up the telephone and asked the bureau for the tally. There does-----

Mr. Michael Finn

To be fair to the Medical Bureau for Road Safety, it has been very helpful to us and it was instrumental in unearthing the difficulties that we encountered. However, it does not see itself as a custodian of Garda breath test devices. It would be adamant in saying, and we would acknowledge, that it is not its responsibility to count how many breath tests we carry out. That is within our remit and we have changed our IT system to ensure we can be the masters of that, rather than having to go to the Medical Bureau for Road Safety. The bureau would not see that as its remit.

Deputy Clare Daly

I agree that it is not its remit. However, is it not the point that all of these issues come back to a cataclysmic failure of management to oversee any of these processes or systems? There appears to be a lack of awareness of why they are there. Take the example of the MAT test. The report basically states, "we did the internal investigation, we are not really sure what has gone on here but there is a number of reasons that we think it might be so". One of the issues is that there was no awareness of why this information was being recorded. I agree that this is a credible answer. However, who designed that system? In every other checkpoint operated by the Garda ordinary rank and file gardaí are asked to record where an offence occurs. They do not record the motorists who have motor tax, just the ones who do not. What genius came up with the idea that the gardaí would record the cars that went through anyway? I agree with the witness. Why would a garda have a problem with ringing up the information centre and saying it could have been 30 or 40? No crime was being carried out so why would the Garda see that as falsified information? I do not.

Is it not the case that the issue here is not breath tests at all, but checkpoints? Deputy Brophy pointed out earlier that a garda would go out on duty and when he came back he would make up the figure when he rang the information centre, because he did not really know what the information was for. How does the Garda know that he did go out and come back? How does the Garda know the checkpoint was conducted? Is it not the case that senior officers were mandated to put up a checkpoint on PULSE? It had to be put up on the system. If that was not carried out afterwards, it was supposed to be invalidated. Certainly, from our experience of talking to gardaí, that often did not happen. Management should have known. It would have known. If the two of us were on duty in the station that night and we got a section 12 warrant and had to drive off with a child, we could not physically have been on that checkpoint that the superintendent told us to conduct. We simply did not have the manpower resources. How do the witnesses know that those checkpoints were cancelled? Based on the reports, there was a pressure to carry out checkpoints. Can the witnesses credibly tell us that all the checkpoints that are on the system were invalidated if they were not carried out? Certainly, from our dialogue with rank and file gardaí that was the unspoken pressure. Nobody wanted to say that the checkpoints were not being carried out. Is that not really the issue? It is not about breath tests at all. Will the acting Garda Commissioner respond to that?

Deputy Peter Fitzpatrick

I welcome acting Garda Commissioner Ó Cualáin, the gardaí present and the technical team. I grew up in an area where people respected the Garda, and I believe that over the last number of years the respect has decreased. My respect for the Garda has not decreased, but from listening to many people in my constituency I believe it has gone down generally. The damage has been done over the last number of years, and the final straw was when the fixed penalty and breath test scandals came to light. They were very badly handled, and it is very important that it does not happen again. We need better policing, we need changes, and we need to get the public trust and respect for the Garda back.

Acting Garda Commissioner Ó Cualáin stated that it is very important that this new regime starts from the top down and the bottom up. I agree with that. Too many people are blaming each other, and this has to stop. We need a Commissioner who will lead from the front, will have the trust and respect of the public, and will do the job. I am a firm believer in getting it right first time. In the last number of years we have had two or three Commissioners who did not get it right first time. It is very important that acting Garda Commissioner Ó Cualáin gets the support and the resources that he needs to do his job, and I believe that he should start with a clean slate. It is fine for him to appear before various Oireachtas committees and different organisations and be constantly battered over what happened in the past. What happened in the past was wrong, and I know that the acting Commissioner will put a team together to sort out what happened in the past. It is very important going forward, and to be fair to acting Garda Commissioner Ó Cualáin we have to give him a clean slate going forward.

It has been stated that crime is down and that drugs have been taken off the streets. That is a good start. I come from Dundalk in County Louth. It has had its problems over the last number of years, and as a public representative I have a very good relationship with Superintendent Gerard Curley, who has done a fantastic job there. I can only speak from my own experience. I see many more garda on foot patrol, more checkpoints, and more involvement in the local community. That means a lot to me.

The reopening of Templemore has been a big plus. We are getting more professional gardaí on the beat. There has been a big issue with gardaí retiring, so it is good to balance the books. We have to do something to increase the number of gardaí in the force. Too many gardaí are doing clerical work at the moment, sitting behind desks. We should increase the number of civilians working for the Garda.

As a former businessman, I would like to know what acting Garda Commissioner Ó Cualáin's plan is going forward. Is he only filling the role on a temporary basis or does he actually want to be the Garda Commissioner? Is he here for the next six, 12 or 18 months to fill the position or is he here to do the best job he can and put his name forward as the next Garda Commissioner?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

The Deputy mentioned the community in his opening remarks. We have to return to the fact that we serve the community, in whatever capacity we hold in this organisation, whether garda, civilian or reserve. That is our focus at all times, and that will be my focus. Any damage to that relationship is a red flag for the organisation. We have to give it absolute priority, because our success as a police service since the foundation of this State has been built on our relationship with the communities and the fact they have been happy to support us in doing what is an evolving and very complex job. To the person on the front line, dealing with a local community, the work of a garda may seem very simple. That is how it should be. We should be present in the community, be seen, and provide support and visible reassurance to members of the public.

The Deputy asked me what my vision was and where I want it to go. I want to ensure that for the time that I am leading this organisation that we do not - regardless of what changes might come about - lose that valuable tie that we always had with the community. That is where our focus will be, through our community policing initiative, and that is a main plank of what we hope to achieve over the coming years. The name "community policing" might indicate that this is some new initiative that has been taken off a shelf or out of a textbook. It is not. This is what we always did. It is our default position. We may have to vary or modify it depending on where we are, depending on whether it is an urban or rural situation, but we have to maintain our focus in that community way. My vision for the organisation is to ensure that with all the change that is about to happen, and is in fact already happening, that we do not lose that. It is the family silver, as it were, and is something that we cannot afford to lose. We are the envy of many other police services worldwide, which see the manner in which we can go to our communities for that support when we need it. I have served in every province of this country, in different capacities and different ranks, and the common thread that runs through all our work is that we have that good relationship.

At times it dips, of course. There is much negativity at the moment because of all the issues that have arisen. That has to have an impact on public confidence. I accept that but we depend on the individual gardaí at local level to ensure that local confidence is there. If we combine all that local confidence together then nationally, the public will have confidence in the police service. We have much to learn and we have lots to do to bolster that confidence but that is what I am setting out to do at the moment. I made clear at the outset, on my appointment as acting Garda Commissioner, what my priorities were and they go back to my first point about community. That is where we are - the delivery of a day-to-day service for the people of this country, supporting them and keeping them safe. Parallel to that, we are moving on as quickly and efficiently as we can, in the context of all the help we will require, including from this committee, to ensure that we get the delivery of cultural change, investment, increased civilianisation and the return of gardaí to the front line who had to come off it to do critical administrative work. That work is needed in order to ensure that we are accountable but it does not necessarily require those with Garda powers to carry it out. We are very ambitious in that context and thank the Government for its commitment to an increase in our civilian capacity which will be doubled over the coming years. We have a very ambitious programme at the moment which is moving on under our chief administrative officer, who will ensure that we get delivery of those people in the fastest possible manner so that we can release gardaí to the front line. Getting people in from the college and releasing people from desk duty will increase our visibility on the front line. A lot is happening.

That is my vision for the organisation while I am in charge over the coming months until such time as a replacement is found. I have every confidence in the Policing Authority to carry out its functions in that process.

Deputy Peter Fitzpatrick

I believe that Mr. Ó Cualáin will do a good job. I also believe that he deserves a clean slate. Is he ambitious enough, though? I am a business person and I grew my business because I was ambitious. Is Mr. Ó Cualáin here for the short term or the long term? There is nothing wrong with stating that he is ambitious and wants to carry on. I am sure there are others in the force who would love to have the opportunity to be acting Garda Commissioner but he has the opportunity at the moment. He is holding the ace. It is very important for the public to realise that we now have a very ambitious acting Garda Commissioner. I would like to see Mr. Ó Cualáin here for the long haul because switching and swapping is not good. As I said earlier, we need to get it right first time.

This is my first time at this committee and perhaps I am making a statement that is too strong. I do not know Mr. Ó Cualáin very well but I have read about him and have spoken to colleagues about him. I believe he is in a strong position at the moment. People have suggested that we should go outside the organisation to find a new Garda Commissioner but I firmly believe that the person who is doing the job, who wants to do it, who understands it and who wants to get the job done is the person who should get the job. I would not be embarrassed if I were Mr. Ó Cualáin because he has the qualifications and he is entitled to seek the role. Mr. Ó Cualáin should let people know that he is not in here doing a temporary job but that he wants the job permanently. He should be given an opportunity to do his job. The previous Garda Commissioner maintained that she did not get the opportunity to do the job that she was asked to do. I urge Mr. Ó Cualáin to put his stamp down and not to be afraid to tell people what he wants to do. He has a job to do at the moment and the people of Ireland deserve to have the right person in that job. They have a right to feel secure in their homes. They have the right to feel safe. It is about time that An Garda Síochána stops getting kicked down the road and stands up for itself.

Chairman

I do not think it is appropriate to force the acting Garda Commissioner to fill in the application form here at the committee. It is sufficient to note that Deputy Fitzpatrick has great confidence in Mr. Ó Cualáin, as I am sure we all do.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

All I can say is that I will be here for as long as it takes and will not be shirking any of my responsibilities. I will be leading from the front in that context.

Chairman

Thank you very much. Deputy Wallace is next.

Deputy Mick Wallace

I thank the witnesses for coming in. I would like to start with a question for the Assistant Commissioner, Mr. Michael O'Sullivan. My question relates to the breath test report. Will Mr. O'Sullivan explain why some submissions from the AGSI and a rank and file garda were dismissed? In that context, I wish to quote directly from the report, as follows:

It was believed that managers used increased enforcement levels at a time of reducing resources to improve their promotion profile. To satisfy Garda management demands and avoid conflict members reported they felt pressured to inflate numbers.

On page 63 of the report we find the following:

This Garda member also disclosed that there was competition amongst various Garda members that led to generous estimating of the breath tests conducted at checkpoints.

These quotes seem to be at odds with the conclusion in the executive summary on page 4, which reads:

The examination team found no evidence of any tangible benefit which would have acted as a catalyst to encourage Garda members to inflate breath test figures. There was no career advancement or other obvious rewards to be gained from engaging in this practice.

In March there was a discussion between the Chairman and the former Garda Commissioner about whether incompetence or deception was the root cause of these issues. The former Garda Commissioner concluded her appearance before the committee on 30 March with the following comment, "I will conclude by giving the committee an assurance, as I did at the end of my opening statement, that we will identify those who are responsible and accountable for this and we will hold them to account." How many disciplinary actions are taking place arising from the two reports and at what rank are the subjects of the proceedings?

It is stated on page 101 of the breath test report: "It is the responsibility of the regional commissioners and divisional officers to have each incident identified fully investigated from a disciplinary perspective if it meets the required threshold". Given the massive disparity and exaggeration of breath tests between the different divisions - we can compare the figures of 385% in Tipperary and 18% in Wexford - does Mr. Ó Cualáin believe it is appropriate for some of the divisional managers who may have been complicit in the falsification to decide who is now disciplined? Surely the matter would more properly be handled by Garda headquarters in referring it directly to an independent body such as the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, GSOC. It may also be that Garda headquarters should have referred the action or inaction of the regional commissioners or divisional officers to GSOC. What does the acting Commissioner think?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

There are no disciplinary cases initiated at this point arising from Mr. O'Sullivan's reports. The process continues with the data sets put together by Mr. O'Sullivan during his research which has been given to regional commissioners under the stewardship of the national roads policing bureau to ensure consistency across the board. It is to establish in more detail what the issues look like. When we get it back, we can move the process further. We need to get the feedback first to establish exactly what the matters might look like and how we might proceed. There are large numbers involved and all ranks may be affected, as the Deputy notes. I agree with the statement of the former Garda Commissioner that where people are found to have done something wrong, they will be held to account, regardless of rank.

Deputy Mick Wallace

I get the impression that responsibility for deciding who behaved badly is now being passed to people who may have behaved badly. They oversaw the inflated figures. Is that a strange way of doing things?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Another piece of work is being done on behalf of the Policing Authority and it is an independent view. It should also give us some view as to how we should proceed. I am not ruling anything out at this stage as to how we might proceed and we should get the full picture. At that stage we will establish who is accountable and how he or she might be held to account.

Deputy Mick Wallace

My point is the end result of Mr. O'Sullivan's report is that we are going back to the people who oversaw the malpractice for a verdict as to who is responsible. That is nuts.

Mr. Michael O'Sullivan

To clarify, the team and I identified a series of checkpoints where the figures looked to be out of kilter in terms of the numbers at the checkpoint, the length of time the checkpoint was in place and the number of breath tests recorded. We have sent the data back to those responsible in the regions to examine them as they are best placed to examine it. There may be geographical factors, for example. We have not asked for any disciplinary investigation to be carried out, but that process is ongoing.

In parallel, the Policing Authority which has been referred to by the acting Garda Commissioner is finishing its independent examination. Part of that investigation is to consider the role and behaviour of the various ranks during all of this, the supervisory element and the role played by various supervisory ranks throughout the process. Of course, we must wait until that independent report is published to decide how we move forward.

I have huge sympathy for senior management in An Garda Síochána where this issue is concerned. It has been framed by Government. It is comparable to a primary school teacher asking what two plus two is and expecting a student provide an answer of four. As the witnesses have mentioned, the Government gave them the criteria. Are they comfortable with the Government dictating criteria about policing issues? On the independent authorisation as a police force, should it not be for the witnesses to decide what stations they feel are appropriate with their own criteria? Would Mr. O'Driscoll have been more comfortable, as an assistant commissioner, in dictating the criteria to Government and letting that inform the process of which station should be reopened, rather than gardaí being told what to do? I gave the primary school example to demonstrate how Garda management has been really framed with this. I have great pity for members of the force that were before the Committee of Public Accounts last week. In my view, they have been framed and thrown under a bus by Government with regard to this issue. The Minister and Department officials should set the criteria to provide answers for this.

I thank the Chairman. As, I presume, we are coming to the end of the session, I thank the witnesses, particularly the new acting Commissioner, for the co-operation we have all experienced today. I am one of those people who believes it is the role of this committee to quiz, interrogate, investigate and put our views to witnesses and for them to answer our questions. I record again that I deplore "gotcha" tactics in any committee or structure. Such tactics are designed to ambush people and arrive at pre-determined outcomes. It is also important to record the fact that the time of senior police officers, the force's top management, is very valuable. Having to attend multiple committee meetings because they and their members are competing with each other to rehash continuously ground that has already been covered is very regrettable. It does no service to politics or politicians.

Respectfully, I disagree completely with my colleague who questioned Assistant Commissioner O'Driscoll on the last point. All Governments of every hue have the right to express an opinion on policing and to communicate. The Department of Justice and Equality is involved, with its Minister, in the development of policing policy. Ultimately, that Minister has accountability. It would be laughable if the Minister and the Department had no say. It is farcical that political parties which spend hours talking about which post office should or should not remain open would not wish to have an opinion expressed. The point is well made that An Garda Síochána is not to be politicised. The assessment and view of what should be done and how, coming back from the management of An Garda Síochána, is a vital part of that. However, there is also a role in the overall structure for the view of the Department and of Government. That said, I thank the witnesses for the manner in which they have worked with us today.

Chairman

I thank Deputy Brophy. There is no response to that. I have a couple of final points myself. In his opening address, the acting Commissioner stated:

All of us in An Garda Síochána must now take responsibility to change our systems, practices, behaviours and culture so these issues cannot happen again and confidence is rebuilt. It is a collective issue and can only be fixed from the top down and the bottom up.

That is very important. I agree with colleagues that this is not a situation in which any of us wanted to be. These are issues which have presented themselves, whatever their genesis, particularly the breath-testing debacle. As someone who respects An Garda Síochána and has an excellent working relationship with the acting Commissioner's colleagues within my constituency and the divisional areas attaching thereto, it is very important to recognise that some of the points made here today will not wash. They will not run. I wish no personal disrespect to Assistant Commissioner O'Sullivan, but the point he made about estimation rather than inflation is not one anyone on the committee can buy. I cannot speak for the members but I listened to them all very carefully. We cannot buy the notion that this was all just about estimation, which is how such incredibly inflated figures arose. "Falsification" is the word we have used. I do not think we are going to fulfil the goal of restoring confidence, to which the acting Commissioner, quite rightly, referred in his opening remarks, in any exercise that is intended to or appears to pull the engine of it all out. I cannot buy estimation in this instance and inflation. At the end of the day, the public belief is that there was falsification and we need to get to the kernel of that and discover what caused it.

Assistant Commissioner O'Sullivan's report is not the final word on this. The Policing Authority's report is yet to come. Are there any other exercises in train or working on this? Are there other internal reports or examinations following on from Assistant Commissioner O'Sullivan's report or is it the case that we are just waiting on the report commissioned by the Policing Authority? It is the universality of this. If it was specific to a particular division, people might think that it could be explained in some other way. However, this was universal. Serving members of An Garda Síochána all over the country did not just wake up and decide to report inaccurate figures on breath tests. We need to know the facts as that is hugely important to the restoration of public confidence. That confidence is, in turn, hugely important to the relationship between An Garda Síochána and the people it is entrusted to serve, namely the Irish people and Irish society generally. Can the witnesses clarify the position having regard to other reports?

The acting Commissioner referred to 3,800 cases scheduled to be heard in the Circuit Court in 2017. Assistant Commissioner Finn also made reference to that. In terms of the practicalities, are they special sittings? What does that do and how does it impact on the already scheduled series of sittings which normally take place?

I refer also to PULSE and the report of Dr. Geoffrey Shannon on the exercise of functions under section 12 of the Child Care Act. While he paid tribute to all of those gardaí with whom he had worked and recognised that the highest standards were applied by individual members in the exercise of that power and authority, he was very critical of the systems in operation within An Garda Síochána. We must look at that. While we acknowledge the excellent disposition of individual gardaí, there has been a failure to address what is wrong with the system. The circumstances and whereabouts of 31 recorded children are completely unknown according to the particular focus Dr. Shannon took.

Has any exercise been carried out over the period since Dr. Shannon's report was presented to the Office of the Garda Commissioner? Has any exercise been undertaken to establish the current whereabouts of those 31 missing children? Has an updating exercise been undertaken on the PULSE system? Can the acting Commissioner add any additional information that might give us a sense that the importance of this report is fully appreciated and that the necessary attention is being devoted to implementing, in a speedy manner, the recommendations Dr. Shannon made? The acting Commissioner might respond.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Yes, and I will call on my colleagues to focus on specific points the Chairman made. As I have stated a few times during the morning, public confidence is critical to what we do. It is a focus that we have to have. The work that has been carried out is ongoing. If the Chairman is asking about the additional work that is happening, Assistant Commissioner O'Sullivan looked for an additional piece of work to happen, that is, going out to the regions. That is what happening at the moment in continuation of Assistant Commissioner O'Sullivan's report.

In an external context, we have the Policing Authority and the Crowe Horwath report. That is what is happening in that space.

I will ask Assistant Commissioner O'Sullivan to clarify the matter regarding the estimation. It is not all in that barrow. There is also an inflation piece, which is referenced in his report. He might clarify that.

Mr. Michael O'Sullivan

From the analysis on the samplings we did and from listening to the telephone recordings, which gave us an insight into the issues, three factors are highlighted in my executive summary. The first is recording issues, the second is suspected breath test inflation and the third is estimation because that is what we heard; that is what the evidence told us.

I thank the assistant commissioner. On behalf of the committee, I thank acting Commissioner Ó Cualáin - or Assistant Commissioner Ó Cualáin or whatever designation Deputy Fitzpatrick wants to apply to him in the future - and his colleagues for their engagement with us and for their informative contributions. I have no doubt there will be some aspects that colleagues will not believe we have addressed satisfactorily but we have endeavoured to do our best as committee members. I also have no doubt that we will have an opportunity to speak at some point in time in the future.

I will suspend the meeting for one minute before going into private session. I appeal to members to stay with me as we need to get our housekeeping done.

The joint committee went into private session at 12.48 p.m. and adjourned at 1.05 p.m. until 9 a.m. on Wednesday, 11 October 2017.

Joint Committee on Justice and Equality debate - Wednesday, 4 Oct 2017

Recent Issues Relating to An Garda Síochána: Acting Garda Commissioner Dónall Ó Cualáin

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Mr. Michael O'Sullivan

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Mr. Michael O'Sullivan

Mr. Michael O'Sullivan

Mr. Michael O'Sullivan

Mr. Michael O'Sullivan

Mr. Michael O'Sullivan

Mr. Michael O'Sullivan

Mr. Michael O'Sullivan

Mr. Michael O'Sullivan

Mr. Michael O'Sullivan

Mr. Michael Finn

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Mr. Michael O'Sullivan

Mr. Michael Finn

Mr. Michael Finn

Mr. Michael Finn

Mr. Michael O'Sullivan

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Mr. Michael O'Sullivan

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Mr. John Twomey

Mr. Michael Finn

Mr. Michael Finn

Mr. Michael Finn

Mr. Michael Finn

Mr. Michael Finn

Mr. Michael Finn

Mr. Michael Finn

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Mr. John O'Driscoll

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Mr. Michael Finn

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Mr. John O'Driscoll

Mr. John O'Driscoll

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Mr. Michael O'Sullivan

Mr. Michael O'Sullivan

Mr. Michael O'Sullivan

Mr. Michael O'Sullivan

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Mr. Michael Finn

Mr. Michael Finn

Mr. Michael Finn

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Mr. Michael O'Sullivan

Mr. Michael Finn

Mr. Michael Finn

Mr. Michael Finn

Mr. Michael Finn

Mr. Michael Finn

Mr. Michael Finn

Mr. Michael Finn

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Joint Committee on Justice and Equality debate -
Wednesday, 4 Oct 2017