JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, DEFENCE AND EQUALITY debate -
Wednesday, 21 Mar 2012

Combating Racial Discrimination: Discussion

Chairman

Today, 21 March, is United Nations International Day for the Elimination of Racial Discrimination. To mark this important occasion we are joined by representatives of various groups seeking to highlight and combat racial discrimination. On behalf of the joint committee, I welcome the following: Mr. Perry Ogden, Mr. Tony Watene and Mr. Brian Kerr from Sport Against Racism Ireland; Ms Rachel Mullen from the Equality and Rights Alliance; Ms Salome Mbugua from AkiDwA; Ms Tanya Ward from the Children's Rights Alliance; and Mr. Brian Killoran from the Immigrant Council of Ireland. The format of the meeting is that a representative of each organisation will make a brief opening statement, after which there will be a question and answer session.

Witnesses should note that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of evidence they give to the committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they do not criticise or make charges against a person, persons or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members should bear in mind that under the salient rulings of the Chair, they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Mr. Ogden to make an opening statement.

Mr. Perry Ogden

I thank members for the invitation to address the joint committee. I am here in my role as executive chairman of Sport Against Racism Ireland, SARI, which was formed in 1997 as a direct response to a rise in the number of racism incidents in the Dublin area. We were inspired by Nelson Mandela, a man who had the vision to recognise the power of sport as a force for breaking down barriers and bringing people together. Sport can be a major driver of positive social change in this country.

We have submitted our presentation to the committee and made recommendations on how we can best work together to tackle racism and all forms of discrimination in society. Our main concern is the lack of leadership shown by the Government on the issues of racism and integration. In abolishing the post of Minister of State with responsibility for integration issues and the National Consultative Committee on Racism and Interculturalism we have, unfortunately, taken a backward step. Racism is a serious issue in this country and we should never assume the work has been done. Many of the children and young people with whom we work are second generation immigrants with Irish accents, who go to Irish schools and follow the national team in various sports. They are citizens of Ireland and we have a responsibility towards them.

We are strongly of the view that there is a need for a national body to drive an ongoing strategic campaign against racism and to promote integration. This year Irish teams will participate at the European football championship and the Olympic Games. As such, 2012 presents a great opportunity to raise awareness of sport as a driver of change, bringing people together and celebrating our differences.

I am accompanied by my colleagues, Mr. Brian Kerr, former manager of the national soccer team and long-time board member of SARI, and Mr. Tony Watene, national inclusion officer of the GAA. We will be pleased to answer any questions members may have.

Chairman

Thank you, Mr. Ogden. I now invite Ms Mbugua of AkiDwA to make her opening statement.

Ms Salome Mbugua

I thank the joint committee for giving me the opportunity to make a presentation today. I am here as chief executive officer of AkiDwA and on behalf of the NGO Alliance Against Racism, otherwise known as NAAR. I am pleased to participate in a debate on racism and related matters on this very symbolic day, United Nations International Day for the Elimination of Racial Discrimination.

The NAAR is a network of more than 50 non-governmental organisations working on a broad range of anti-racist, community and human rights issues. Many of these organisations work closely with people experiencing racism and are concerned at how racism is creating an unequal and unjust Ireland. The NAAR is co-ordinated by the Dominican Justice Office and regularly makes submissions on such issues at national and international level. Our main focus is on preparing shadow reports for the UN Committee on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination and monitoring and encouraging implementation of recommendations of the committee. This contributes to ensuring Ireland meets its international obligations in challenging racism.

Racism, as with any other form of discrimination, is unacceptable in society and must be challenged at all levels. I am joined by my colleagues Ms Rachel Mullen, co-ordinator for the Equality and Rights Alliance; Ms Tanya Ward, chief executive of the Children's Rights Alliance, and Mr. Brian Killoran, information and referral co-ordinator for the Immigrant Council of Ireland. Unfortunately, Mr. Martin Collins from the Pavee Point Travellers' Centre has been delayed. If he does not make it, we apologise on his behalf. Together, my colleagues and I represent a broad range of experiences and perspectives in the sector and will be pleased to respond to members' questions.

Chairman

Thank you, Ms Mbugua. I now invite Ms Mullan from the Equality and Rights Alliance to make a statement.

Ms Rachel Mullan

On behalf of the NAAR, I intend to comment on issues impacting on Ireland's equality and human rights infrastructure and our concerns about the proposed merger of the Equality Authority and the Human Rights Commission. Under the Employment Equality Acts, the race ground consistently accounts for the highest number of cases taken to the Equality Tribunal, with such complaints representing 51% of all cases in 2007, 42% in 2008 and 37% in 2009. There is no need to rehearse the significant cuts imposed by the previous Government on our human rights and equality infrastructure. However, it is worth noting that since budget 2009, the cumulative cut to the budget of the Equality Authority is 49%, while the cumulative reduction in funding for the Human Rights Commission is 40%. The staffing levels of both bodies have been substantially reduced, with the number employed by the Equality Authority down from 58 to 35, while the number of staff at the Human Rights Commission has been reduced from 17 to nine. The impact of these reductions has been great in terms of the ability of these bodies to discharge their functions.

One need only consider the legal function of the Equality Authority which is extremely important in supporting people in the context of the nine grounds for vindication of rights under equality legislation. The authority's most recent annual report, for 2010, indicates that the number of legal cases progressed was down a massive 48% on the figure for the previous year, from 685 to 332. The number of new file cases opened by the authority in 2010 was down by 54% since 2009, from 213 to 116. It is in this context that the Minister for Justice and Equality is proposing to merge the Equality Authority and the Human Rights Commission. We have major concerns to the effect that unless there is a significant commitment to fund and resource this body properly, it will prove to be little more than a cobbling together of two severely eviscerated institutions. It will also be nothing much more than an extremely expensive white elephant.

There are 170 civil society groups which are members of the Equality and Rights Alliance. We are about to submit a submission to the Minister for Justice and Equality, which has been signed by all of our members and in which we ask that four key standards be met in respect of the establishment of the new human rights and equality commission. We hope the committee will support us in this. As already stated, there are four key standards which must be met in the context of the new body. The first of these is that it must retain the powers and functions of the two existing institutions - the Equality Authority and the Human Rights Commission - and that there should be a levelling up of the powers thereof. The second key standard is that the new body must have sufficient staffing and resources to allow it to discharge its functions. The information we have received from the Department indicates that there is no commitment to provide any additional funding to the new body. That is a serious development because we are of the view that the new body will not be able to function properly as a result.

The third key standard is that the legislation must introduce a positive duty on public sector bodies to honour the commitment in the programme for Government to the effect that the public sector will take due note of equality and human rights in carrying out its functions. The fourth key standard, which is extremely important and which does not require any Exchequer funding, is that the new body must be independent in its functions. That independence should encompass the following. There should be an open and transparent procedure in respect of appointments to the new body, particularly in the context of senior staff; there should no longer be secondments from the Civil Service, particularly at senior level; and there must be an accountability to the Oireachtas. In the context of the latter point, we are happy the Minister provided a commitment to the effect that the new body will be accountable to the Oireachtas and we hope this will be honoured.

My final point relates to the new employment rights body that has been constituted under the remit of the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation. The Equality Tribunal's functions - particularly its equality employment legislative function - will be absorbed within this new body. In the context of a statement made by the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Bruton, on 8 March, there is a concern, on foot of what is being proposed, that there will be no specialism within that new body in the context of its taking particular cognisance of employment equality cases. The latter are extremely complex and are quite different to industrial disputes. There is also no sense of where the equal status function of the Equality Tribunal will be situated. We recommend that it should not, by default, be transferred to the District Court because this would give rise to major issues with regard to accessibility for people seeking to vindicate their rights. If it does fall within the remit of the new body, we would again recommend that there should be a specialism because the equal status function is very different from the employment function of the tribunal.

Chairman

I thank Ms Mullen for her very practical and informative presentation. Next we will have Ms Tanya Ward from the Children's Rights Alliance.

Ms Tanya Ward

As my colleague, Ms Mbugua, explained, the NGO Alliance has come together to compile shadow reports under the UN Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination. Ireland was examined by the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination in March 2011. This country has always taken its examination under the convention very seriously. The Government must be commended on that. I bring to the committee's attention some recommendations relating to law reform which the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination made in respect of Ireland. The latter is made up of independent experts. These individuals are usually the leading experts in their fields and are elected by their various governments. The committee operates on the principle of constructive dialogue. It is not, therefore, a court. What it does is engage in discussions with governments and provide practical suggestions on how to improve protection against racial discrimination in their various states.

The committee raised a number of key issues in respect of Ireland. The first of these related to the incorporation of the UN convention in Irish law. As many members are aware, Ireland has a dualist legal system. This means that when the country signs up to an international agreement, it does not have direct effect. The Oireachtas must enact legislation to give such agreements direct effect. Ireland has enacted on many occasions in this regard. Examples in this regard are the Genocide Act, the Prohibition of Incitement to Hatred Act, the Criminal Justice (United Nations Convention Against Torture) Act and the European Convention on Human Rights Act. We do not, however, have legislation relating to the UN Convention on the Elimination of Racist Discrimination, a matter about which the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination was extremely concerned.

It could be argued that Ireland does not need to introduce legislation in this regard because there are already laws on the Statute Book which protect against racial discrimination. However, there are clear gaps between the convention and Irish law. A good example in this regard relates to the Acts brought forward and decisions made by Departments. In that context, the Equal Status Act only prohibits discrimination in respect of goods and services. As a result, the Department of Education and Skills could develop a policy which could have the potential to be discriminatory but because the Department might not be providing a service directly to individuals or, in many circumstances, children, then the Equality Tribunal would not have a role to play in this regard. It could also be argued that the Constitution is available to people because it contains a provision on equality which offers equal protection to everyone. The difficulty with this, however, is that it is very underdeveloped by the courts and it does not protect against all forms of discrimination.

Taking account of what the UN committee has stated, we urge the Government to review Ireland's compatibility with the UN Convention on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination. The best place to start would be by auditing our laws to identify where the gaps lie.

The UN committee also paid special attention to the Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill. As members are aware, the latter has been introduced and withdrawn on several occasions. It is probably going to be one of the most important items of immigration and protection legislation that the Oireachtas will ever have the opportunity to pass and it will come before members during the lifetime of the current Government. The UN committee has called on the State to strengthen its laws to protect against racial discrimination and to improve existing legislation, particularly the Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill. The committee singled out two particular aspects, one of which relates to judicial review. It recommended that the Government should improve the rights of migrants to judicial review against administrative actions and should prescribe reasonable time limits. Members will be aware that judicial review is crucial in the context of rights protection because it gives litigants an opportunity to challenge the validity of decisions made by the Government, a Government Act or a public authority on the basis of constitutionality and for violations of basic justice principles.

The UN committee recommended that the area to which I refer requires reform because the UN Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination indicates that state parties should "undertake to prohibit and to eliminate racial discrimination in all its forms and to guarantee the right of everyone, without distinction as to race, colour, or national or ethnic origin, to equality before the law, notably in the enjoyment of the following rights ... The right to equal treatment before the tribunals and all other organs administering justice". The problem in the context of judicial review is that a 14-day time limit applies. During this period, a person seeking a judicial review must consult a solicitor, instruct a barrister and lodge papers if he or she wants to challenge the validity of an immigration related decision. Members can imagine how challenging this can be for most families, particularly those with children or for children who happen to be here without their families. The High Court is a very intimidating place and if one does not have English as one's first language and one does not possess any resources, it is very difficult to seek a judicial review. The Law Reform Commission examined this issue in 2004 and recommended that the time limit be raised to 28 days. It was of the view that this would strike the correct balance between ensuring that failed migrants could not use judicial review as a means to remain in the State and that ordinary litigants and vulnerable people would have better access to the courts.

The second issue to which the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination paid attention is that of migrant women who are in abusive relationships. At present, individuals can apply for residency on the basis of their relationship with an Irish national or a non-EEA national. However, they are dependent on that person and that is why they have their residency permits. For the majority of migrant women in the State and their children, this does not give rise to problems. For those who are in abusive relationships and who want to leave them, it does cause difficulties. There is nothing in Irish law to enable the women to whom I refer to apply for temporary permits or for independent permits if they are in abusive relationships. Information provided by the Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service, INIS, confirms this.

When situations of this type have arisen, some women have been able to obtain discretionary residence permits from the Department of Justice and Equality. The latter has operated in a very humane way. The problem for the majority of the women involved is that they are not aware they can do this. They believe the law is very clear on this matter. There have also been circumstances where women trying to leave their husbands and take their children with them have been denied community welfare assistance. That has not happened in all cases but it has happened in some. This means the families involved are left in very vulnerable situations and the children are exposed to abusive situations. The committee regretted that action to review of the Prohibition of the Incitement to Racial Religious or National Hatred Act, which the Department of Justice and Equality has been reviewing since it was introduced in 1989, has stalled and it wants the Government to review that in terms of improvements.

As committee members, the members are in an important position in the Oireachtas. The law is the starting point for dealing with racial discrimination and they have an important role in reviewing legislation that comes before the Oireachtas. We ask them to consider the concluding observations of CERD when they deal with the immigration Bill and to pay special attention to the situation of children who should not be discriminated against on the basis of their parentage. The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child is very clear on this. The members do not have to wait until legislation comes before them, they are members of an active committee and they can organise their own programme. On this, the UN International Day for the Elimination of Racial Discrimination, we would like the committee to consider conducting a review of how the criminal and civil law deals with racial discrimination.

Chairman

Does Mr. Brian Killoran wish to make a presentation?

Mr. Brian Killoran

No. We decided with our colleagues to put our presentations together and then to take questions.

Chairman

I call Deputy Calleary to commence questions.

Deputy Dara Calleary

I thank the groups for coming in, particularly the NGO Alliance which has given us a fair bit of food for thought. My questions are directed at Sport Against Racism Ireland. I was particularly anxious that representatives from it would come to the meeting. When we planned this meeting, it was at the height of the recent controversy involving premiership football. I will not mention the team or the individual. Given the role that premiership football and sports, not necessarily headquartered on this island, play in influencing our minds and those of younger people, the organisation rightly criticised the decision of the Government to abolish the Ministry for integration. What role does the organisation play in terms of international action with regard to sport taking action on racism? I am thinking of the issue regarding the premiership and UEFA issues in recent times where there seems to be a blasé attitude, but what happened over the weekend has turned that around. Is there a sports against racism international organisation that stands up against that kind of attitude?

Second, the GAA has an important role in this area as it has a presence in every community in the country unlike any other organisation. Do the representatives perceive racism is a problem in the GAA? Is there inherent racism there? The e-mail we received this morning from Killian Forde in the Integration Centre suggests that Ireland has a very poor record in terms of discrimination. He quotes a survey in 2010 of post-primary teachers carried out by the TUI and the Equality Authority in which 46% of the teachers surveyed were aware of racist incidents in a previous month. If racism is that widespread, how is the GAA dealing with it in terms of its reach into every community in the country?

Mr. Perry Ogden

That is a good question. I will reply first and then hand over to Mr. Brian Kerr and Mr. Tony Watene. We are founder members of an organisation called FARE, Football Against Racism in Europe, which is becoming increasingly more active and prominent in Europe. For example, we will send a monitor to the European Championship as part of a FARE programme. There will be two independent monitors in every stadium for every match on behalf of FARE who will keep an eye on things and make a report to FARE. FARE puts enormous pressure on UEFA and on the national football associations, FAs, of each country. Mr. Brian Kerr might want to add to that.

Mr. Brian Kerr

I have attended the last three FARE conferences which are funded and supported by UEFA, which has members of its executive at those meetings. At the first of those meetings I attended about six years ago I was shocked at UEFA's lack of activity in dealing with serious issues. Also, some of the major soccer countries, I mention Spain in particular, were inclined to brush many huge incidents under the carpet. There was a particular player called----

Chairman

I must emphasise that we have to be terribly careful about mentioning individuals' names.

Mr. Brian Kerr

Is that the mentioning of players or associations?

Chairman

Associations are okay but I would prefer if the witness did not mention individuals' names.

Mr. Brian Kerr

Even if the name has been in the public domain.

Chairman

No. I would prefer if the witness would not mention individuals' names.

Mr. Brian Kerr

The player shall be nameless but he was African and was playing for a very prominent team in Spain. He got what could only be described as serial dog's abuse at games. The Spanish association failed to deal with the issue in any sort of a decent manner. As a result of meetings of FARE conferences, UEFA responded in a much more heavy-handed way regarding particular incidents. When it heard the reaction to this of an organisation, similar to SARI, around Europe, it has been tougher and stronger but not tough enough in dealing with issues. We have seen how such incidents have developed in England and some cases were mentioned. I presume I am not allowed mention particular cases but one of the clubs plays in blue and another club played in red and the opposition on the day generally play in red but they are not referred to as "reds". Those issues are of great prominence. The organisation highlights the issue, brings it to the fore and helps to create an environment where people know what is acceptable and what is unacceptable.

It was acceptable in recent years for thousands of people in the crowd at matches to abuse players, but that has now become unacceptable. As recently as last week a fan was charged at a prominent club game in England with racially abusing a player. In many ways that is what needs to happen. The presentations the committee heard this morning have to do with laws and the implementation and changing of law. My experience is that unless the law is strong and is implemented thoroughly by the police or the Garda, there will no change on the part of sports organisations and neither will there be any change in the behaviour at games of the public, of participants and, in some cases, of legislators. Unless issues come to fore in a big way or through a big scene with a lot of publicity, nothing much changes.

Mr. Tony Watene

In terms of the association, in 2009 we moved from being a non-sectarian association to being not only an anti-sectarian but anti-racist one. That has happened at the top level. At grassroots level we are driving the Respect campaign which is similar to what is being done across the water. The campaign is targeted at under-age children. Children come in and represent their clubs or their school units by wearing their club gear and they will be given their county gear to wear on top which has the Respect logo. Their posters are in the stadia and the Respect initiative is also driven in match programmes.

Deputy Anne Ferris

I welcome the groups. I am delighted this committee has been able to mark the UN day as we are doing today. I am based in Bray and Bray Wanderers is my local football team. I remember attending the launch of the sport against racism in the club. I might have been chairperson of the local council at the time. The club was strongly of the view that, apart from adults playing football or other sport, the initiative was about children being educated. One of the witnesses mentioned Nelson Mandela and we have probably all seen the film starring Matt Damon and the actor who played Nelson Mandela which dealt with the history of that sport there, which was brilliant. I congratulate the witnesses on that work and ask them to keep it up. We hear too often about incidents happening on football pitches. A senior member of FIFA got his knuckles rapped in this respect in recent months and, as I remember, he would not back down.

Ms Rachel Mullen mentioned that the race ground featured most in the number of cases referred to Equality Tribunal. She mentioned a number of figures up to 2009. Could she give me those again?

Ms Rachel Mullen

These are referrals to the Equality Tribunal under the Employment Equality Acts. In 2007, 51% of referrals under the Employment Equality Act were on the race ground. In 2008, 42% of referrals were under the race ground and in 2009 it was 37%.

Deputy Anne Ferris

Such referrals are clearly decreasing.

Ms Rachel Mullen

They are, but they still represent the highest ground in terms of that legislation. Unfortunately, the most recent annual report we have is for 2008.

Deputy Anne Ferris

Is there any relationship between the fall in referrals and the 49% reduction in funding? Would Ms Mullen hazard a guess?

Ms Rachel Mullen

It was the Equality Authority that was cut by 40%. These are cases under the tribunal, but it will have an impact in the sense that the Equality Authority supports people in taking cases under the legislation. The other figures I mentioned on the drop in legal assistance show a significant decrease in the number of cases the authority is able to support so that will have a knock-on effect.

Deputy Anne Ferris

Ms Ward mentioned the racism convention and the clear gaps between it and Irish law. I suggest to the Chairman that we look into the matter in the future. Racism can be manifested in many areas. I receive many complaints about child benefit from people who are not Irish citizens. I am sure the matter has been raised previously of how they are sent a form four times a year even though they may have been living in this country for up to 15 years and could be married to an Irish person. They are asked for proof that they are still resident in this country. They take that seriously. They consider it a racist attack. Such issues must be examined in all areas. Everything must be qualified. I have a great passion for equality. If I had my way I would like to see a separate Department of equality and women's rights.

I met Ms Salome Mbugua on a number of occasions. In recent weeks I spoke at a conference organised by the Immigrant Council of Ireland. We spoke at great length about immigrant women involved in abusive relationships and what could be done. That is one area the committee will examine. We hope to invite the Turn Off the Red Light group to the committee in the near future. A number of issues arise. I am sorry that Mr. Collins from Pavee Point is not present. I know many of the people involved with that organisation as well. I am sure all of those issues will be taken into account. It is not just for today; this is ongoing work that must be done. Every issue must be examined by Departments. We are aware of gender issues but racism must be stamped out in this country.

Deputy Jonathan O’Brien

I understand the constraints in terms of parliamentary privilege but there should be no hiding place for people who engage in racist activity. We are dealing with some players who have been found guilty by their relevant associations. The committee should not provide a hiding place for such individuals.

I share the concerns expressed on the amalgamation of the Irish Human Rights Commission and the Equality Authority. We highlighted the issue. We have not yet seen the legislation to give effect to that so we do not know exactly what it will contain. We share many of the concerns expressed on the ability of each organisation to retain its powers and the Paris principles among other areas. We must ensure that the legislation is robust and that it will not be used as a mechanism to reduce resources and staffing levels because that would be a retrograde step. We will examine the legislation closely.

The Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill 2010 has been on and off the agenda. The Minister stated that he will republish the Bill. We will be starting from scratch because so many amendments were proposed to the Bill that was before the committee. In fairness to the Minister, he has given a commitment that the Bill will come before the committee this year and that it will be dealt with this year. We hope that will be the case. We will ensure that it will happen.

The issue of women in abusive relationships came up last week during Question Time. As Ms Ward said, the Department deals with cases on a case-by-case basis but it is very difficult to determine the criteria it uses. The Minister indicated last week during Question Time that if there is an information deficit he is willing to examine the issue and put the resources in place to ensure the information is available and people are made aware that a process is in place for women who may be in abusive relationships. We would welcome that.

As someone who is involved in the League of Ireland, I am aware that steps have been taken in the sporting area. It remains to be seen whether what has been done is sufficient. One could ask whether there is anything clubs should be doing. Before every game we go through a standard procedure such as having to put up banners, and making announcements before the game and during half time, but are clubs doing enough in terms of educating those who participate in sport, GAA, League of Ireland and international teams, to foster integration between various cultures? I would welcome a comment in that regard.

Mr. Brian Kerr

Many of the changes have only occurred in recent years because of the influx of different cultures into this country. Many of the clubs are only having to adapt to the fact that they have a role in the community to absorb new people and ensure there is an opportunity for them to participate. It is disturbing that statistics indicate that only 1% of the membership of athletics clubs in this country come from the African diaspora when one considers the potential that exists. That is just one sport, but it is a similar situation in other sports. Clubs and organisations are failing to tap into the potential. Once children get involved in clubs there is not usually a major problem. The problem is often on the touchline with parents when competitive games are being played. The three main sporting organisations, rugby, GAA and soccer, have taken action and implemented rules and regulations to deal with that. It is not always easy to deal with the issue but clubs themselves understand their responsibilities.

Both MsWard and Ms Mullen have made detailed presentations outlining the facts on the legislation, the changes in organisations and the effects of the lack of funding. They are very much on the ball. In sport, change only takes place when something major happens and there is a major incident. In this country such incidents have been infrequent but the potential is there for more. Mr. Tony Watene's case is more a case of discrimination than racism. I hope that if one breaks out, even at a lower level of schoolboy football or schoolgirl participation, that a big publicity issue will surround it and this will help to ensure that action is taken at the time and at grassroots level which spreads right across all sports. This will ensure that proper procedures are in place and that people will know where the clear defining lines are and what is acceptable.

I was talking with some of the people coming in here today, and we were discussing issues that seemed to be almost acceptable in modern Ireland. Racial comments are made ad lib to people on the street and in workplaces. I do not think that is the case in sport, but it is the case on the sidelines sometimes in sport. We have to eradicate the idea that it is acceptable to make offhand, loose comments to people of a different culture, background or colour.

Chairman

Thank you, Mr. Kerr. You are absolutely spot on.

Deputy Jonathan O’Brien

Is it the case that people engage in this and they do not even realise what they are doing? I am not making excuses for it, but is there a need for a real education programme to be put in place on what is acceptable and, more importantly, what is not acceptable? I know those lines are there in sport, but most of it will come from the stands. Even when clubs tackle individual supporters within their own clubs, sometimes they will say that it is only a bit of banter.

Mr. Brian Kerr

All of us here who have a knowledge of the issue and who feel passionately about it - we would not be here if we did not - have at some stage been affected by someone else in our life who gave us that feeling and that passion. I was fortunately exposed to it when I was a kid, because my father happened to work in Trinity College, where there were people from a different culture and so on. I absorbed a feeling in our family about what was acceptable and what was good. To say something racist would not have been acceptable. Not everybody has been exposed to that, but there is an education process that people have to go through somewhere in their lives. Maybe that is now within the school system, where there are so many children from different backgrounds. It has to begin there, but we can still educate the adults by having rules, regulations and laws, and also by implementing those laws and saying that it is not acceptable anywhere to have that type of behaviour.

Mr. Brian Killoran

I would like to pick up on two points raised by Deputy Ferris and Deputy O'Brien. We in the Immigrant Council of Ireland are receiving reports from people who are experiencing racial incidents on one side, while in another part of our work, we hear from people who are experiencing domestic violence. As Deputy Ferris has identified, there seems to be a diminution in people's engagement with the various systems, and the percentages are going down. One thing we have noticed dramatically over the last few years is that people are understandably worried about retaining their jobs. We have dealt with several instances where people had very serious issues with their employers which they could well have taken further, but decided not to do so because they were concerned that they would not be able hold on to their job, or find alternative employment if they had to go elsewhere. There is a serious issue of under-reporting and lack of engagement with the systems that are there. This is just one of them.

There are two key parts to the domestic violence issue. One of the things that we need to stress from an immigration perspective is that it is very easy to do. The Deputy is correct to say that the Department has handled cases in domestic violence situations extremely well and, touch wood, to date we have not had a case where the Department has actually refused an independent permit to somebody who has approached it in respect of a domestic violence situation. That is very commendable. One of the difficulties we face as an organisation is to convince people that is the case. If people are in a situation where they are dependent on their partner, it is very difficult to convince them to leave the situation and to convince them that there are systems which will allow them to get an independent status, because that is not written down anywhere in legislation nor is it on the website of the Department of Justice and Equality. That needs to be examined from a social welfare perspective as well. We need at least short-term emergency supports for people who are experiencing this so that they can leave the situation. They are often financially dependent on their partner, and their immigration status might preclude them from accessing normal social welfare payments. We need CWOs to be empowered to give emergency short-term payments for three to six months that could help people get on their feet when they are experiencing domestic violence. These solutions are quite easy. They do not involve a huge cost implication and they are easy to do if we can focus attention on them.

I thank the Members and the committee for their interest in the area.

Ms Tanya Ward

Many have said that it is really important to have strong laws in place to respond to the issue of racism. I agree with that fully. As Mr. Killoran mentioned, one problem is that most do not want to come forward and lodge a complaint. We expect them to do that in order to trigger some sort of response. There are very long waiting lists before the Equality Tribunal for employment equality and Equal Status Act cases, and this discourages people from making complaints. Sometimes when they make complaints to the Garda, they are not taken seriously. That is not because the Garda does not take racial discrimination seriously, but it does not put as much resources into prosecuting offences at the lower end. It is more likely to focus on serious crimes.

We have a real problem in Ireland as we have little in the way of public awareness work on racial discrimination. There is no national action plan against racism, which ceased to operate two years ago. The National Consultative Committee on Racism and Interculturalism has ceased to operate, and the Equality Authority's budget was cut by 49%. That mainly impacted on the legal unit, but it also negatively impacted on its public awareness work as well.

More generally, there are very few black and ethnic minority faces in the media. We are not putting enough resources into this area and it is impacting in all kinds of outcomes for people.

Ms Rachel Mullen

Another huge issue is the lack of knowledge on rights under legislation. The European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights did a piece of research in 2010 across all the member states. In Ireland, it found that 57% of sub-Saharan Africans interviewed did not know that there was legislation in Ireland prohibiting racial discrimination in employment, while 67% of them had never heard of the Equality Tribunal. There is an issue about under-reporting when people know what is there, but there is also an issue about not even knowing what is there.

Chairman

I thank you all for coming in here today. I commend the Sport Against Racism Ireland delegates on the work you are doing and I encourage you to continue with that work. It is very important. My own experience is that very often, as Mr. Kerr has said, youngsters on the field of play take each other as they find them and they play away and they get on. It is often the adults in the stands who can be the problem. I also take the point made about the need for education and raising public awareness across the country. That is crucially important and is something that the committee will be bringing to the Government's attention.

There is no place for racism in society. We are all agreed on that. This is a good start and given the day that is in it, we are delighted that you are here. I thank you for coming in and giving us your time and expertise.

The immigration Bill will be coming before us shortly. It will be republished from scratch because there were many amendments to it. We hope to deal with that before the year is out. I invite you to keep in contact with the committee if you have any suggestions or comments to make. I am not sure whether we will get the heads of the Bill first, or whether it will come into the Dáil or Seanad initially for debate.

The committee wants to support you in what you are doing. We will certainly take on board this particular document and the points made about the need for legislation and resources to be put in place. We will do what we can to highlight those issues. Thank you very much.

Sitting suspended at 1 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.