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Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality debate -
Wednesday, 19 Dec 2012

Undocumented Migrants Living in Ireland: Discussion with Migrants Rights Centre Ireland

The purpose of today's meeting is to have discussions with the Migrant Rights Centre Ireland on undocumented migrants living in this country. I welcome Ms Siobhan O’Donoghue and Ms Edel McGinley. I thank them for their attendance and for the submissions they gave us. The format is that they will make a brief opening remark for five minutes and then there will be a question and answer session.

I wish to advise the witnesses that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give to this committee. If they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter to only qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person or persons or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing ruling of the Chair to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I invite Ms McGinley to make her opening remarks.

Ms Edel McGinley

I am not sure I got all of that.

I can say it again if the witnesses wish.

Ms Edel McGinley

I thank the Chairman and the committee for having us here. The Migrant Rights Centre Ireland is a national organisation working to promote justice and empowerment for migrant workers in Ireland. We have been taking a stand with migrant workers for more than ten years through service provision, advocacy and policy change.

We have been working with undocumented migrants since 2001. We have seen the cumulative and detrimental effects being undocumented has had on people in the State. The issue is a serious one and is at a critical stage in this country. We estimate that 25,000 to 30,000 undocumented people live in this country, including families and children. Next year, 2013, as committee members are probably aware, is the year of immigration reform in this country and in the US. This issue must be dealt with separately from the Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill in order that we can clean up the system comprehensively.

Data on undocumented migrants is limited but we have carried out a number of different studies with people who come through our doors. A total of 75 different nationalities are represented. People come from outside the EU and from all over the world. The majority are more than 30 years of age and they have been here for at least four years, and many of them are undocumented for up to 15 years. Approximately half of them have families and children living in the State. That is a large number of connections to the State.

In terms of a contribution, undocumented migrants spend €180 million annually, which is a big contribution to the economy. Many people have been engaged in employment for many years and have been with the same employer for more than four years. They have been working and paying tax and PRSI contributions. Many children are integrated into schools and their families are part of our communities.

I will not go into the proposal we sent in detail but it relates to earned regularisation. I will outline the benefits of an earned regularisation scheme. It would generate in the region of €75 million to €100 million annually through fees, fines and additional revenue from undocumented workers and their employers. It would bring the largest amount of undocumented people into the immigration system and enhance governance. Residence would be earned over a five-year period. There would not be an automatic right to residency. It is not an amnesty; it is something that is earned over a period and mirrors the long-term residency system that is already in place.

There are built-in safeguards to the scheme, which also works to root out unscrupulous employers in tandem with NERA and other agencies that are engaged in compliance. It will improve overall public security and compliance and add credibility to our efforts in the US to regularise undocumented Irish people there. The House has been active in advocating for the rights of the undocumented in the US. It also provides a humanitarian response. Failure to act is not an option. The cost of deporting this group of people would be in the region of €90 million. It is untenable for the State to even begin to consider that.

To date, we have received much support for earned regularisation. We have received political support from Deputies and Senators across political parties. The Labour Party has passed a motion. We have also received support from Dublin City Council, South Dublin County Council, Fingal County Council and other councils across the country. It has also been endorsed by a number of organisations that are listed in the submission given to committee members. They include trade unions, business and religious organisations and voluntary and community organisations.

We urge the committee to raise the issue with the Minister and to ask him to respond to the proposal on earned regularisation. We seek an agreement as a matter of urgency that earned regularisation will be introduced in the State to give hope to people who are undocumented.

I thank Ms McGinley. That was most interesting.

I also thank Ms McGinley for the presentation. She referred to unscrupulous employers who take advantage of undocumented migrant workers.

I have had one or two cases where people came to me who had come here from the UK indirectly. They were not allowed to work here because they were staying with a family relative. One may see undocumented people selling newspapers at road junctions or selling free-sheets at DART stations. Has Ms O'Donoghue had any experience of undocumented migrants being employed in that sector?

Ms Siobhán O'Donoghue

Over the years, we have had some experience of the newspaper selling business. It has not been an issue concerning the undocumented, but is more about being exploited. A lot of people who are selling newspapers in such situations are actually European citizens and have the right of free mobility and residence in Ireland. There is an exploitation issue, however.

The committee might be interested in a particular case I dealt with a number of years ago. It concerned a young woman who was undocumented and was involved in cleaning Dáil Éireann every day. It brought home the fact that undocumented people are integrated into our lives, families, communities and workplaces. They are not separate but are integrated. This proposal is about recognising that reality. The only home the children of such people have ever known is Ireland.

I have a statement from Champika, who is in the Visitors Gallery today, on her experiences of being undocumented in Ireland. She talks about her 18-year-old daughter who has spent the last ten years in the Irish education system and is completely integrated. She is among the top 5% of talented young people in the country. We have just heard that she has got a Gaisce presidential award.

We are dealing with young people and older people also. One undocumented person we are dealing with is fluent in Irish. There are issues concerning exploitation but it is more likely that such people are getting on with their lives, working, paying tax and PRSI, and making a contribution although they are not formally recognised in the system.

Do you have a view as to whether or not legislation is needed to allow regularisation to happen?

Ms Edel McGinley

We do not believe it requires legislation. It can be introduced as a scheme under ministerial discretion, which is in place in the 1999 Act. Therefore it does not require legislation to introduce something like this. It does not have to be on a statutory footing in that way. In some respects that would speed up how this would be implemented. We believe a scheme can easily be introduced and does not require complicated or comprehensive legislation. That can be done now with relative ease.

I propose that, as a committee, we should write to the Minister to seek his views on this matter. We will put that on the agenda for the committee's next meeting to see if members agree with that. If they do, we will go ahead and do it. We can then discuss the matter among ourselves and may very well recommend that the Minister should look favourably on this.

Ms Edel McGinley

It is a very pragmatic proposal. We realise we are in a recession and that it is a difficult time, but this is pragmatic and has been earned over a five-year period. There are not a lot of people coming into the system at one time because it is slow. People are paying taxes and their contribution is recognised. It is a measured approach to dealing with this situation.

Can we agree that we will discuss this at the committee's next meeting in the new year?

We will then make a decision once we have had time to reflect on it, based on what the witnesses have put forward today. I will certainly look favourably on what they have said, but I want to wait and see what other members of the committee have to say also.

I thank the witnesses for coming in this morning.

Sitting suspended at 10.05 a.m. and resumed at 10.06 a.m.

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