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Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality debate -
Wednesday, 18 Nov 2015

Property Services Appeal Board: Chairperson Designate

The purpose of this part of the meeting is to engage with Mr. Anthony H. Ensor, chairman designate of the Property Services Appeals Board. On behalf of the joint committee, I thank him for his attendance. The format is that Mr. Ensor will be invited to make a brief opening statement which will be followed by a question and answer session.

By virtue of section 17(2)(I) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members should be aware that under the salient rulings of the Chair, they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Mr. Ensor to make his opening statement.

Mr. Anthony Ensor

My opening statement is brief.

We like brevity.

Mr. Anthony Ensor

So do I. The other reason is that as I am chairman designate, obviously I do not have too much to say as yet.

I am a retired solicitor now acting in a consultancy capacity with the firm Ensor O' Connor, a firm which was founded by me, but as I have reached the age at which one qualifies for the bus pass, I have stood down to let younger solicitors at it.

I was involved in the Law Society of Ireland for many years when I chaired a number of committees, including the regulatory and education committees. I was fortunate enough to be president in 2000, in which capacity I chaired the council of the Law Society of Ireland for a full 12 months. I then sat on the disciplinary tribunal which would be partly on all fours with the Property Services Appeal Board in the sense that one deals with the same matters. The statutory limit in serving on the disciplinary tribunal is ten years.

I am honoured to have been asked to become chairperson of the Property Services Appeal Board and I have set out its role. It is relatively limited in relation to the powers of the regulatory authority which deals with issues on a day to day basis and, of course, has its own board. Effectively, what happens is that if a party who has to comply with the regulations of the authority feels disgruntled in any manner and wishes to appeal, he or she can appeal on certain grounds to the appeal board. I have had the opportunity to talk to some of the board members to see exactly what they do in their day to day business. It is a very strong board.

Ms Sunniva McDonagh and Mr. James Bridgeman are both barristers, Mr. David McGarry is a chartered accountant, Ms Dorothea Dowling was chairperson of the Personal Injuries Board and Mr. Philip Moynihan was a superintendent in Enniscorthy when I was practising there, so we came across each other.

The board deals with major issues coming to it from the authority. On hearing an appeal, it can confirm the authority's decision and state it is happy the authority dealt with the matter properly or remit the matter to the authority for certain directions. A number of matters have been remitted for reconsideration, the reason being - and this is anecdotal because, of course, I have not sat on the board because I have not yet been fully appointed - the board felt the authority should look at them in more detail. I have spoken to board members and examined the board's annual report. Some matters failed, probably because they were outside the jurisdiction of the appeals board. The appeals board can make determinations and substitute penalties, in other words, overrule the authority by increasing or reducing fines. The board is somewhat limited in its jurisdiction as set out in the statute. An appeals board must always have regard to applying natural justice and fair procedures. This will be my priority. The authority must do its job and we may be seen to have a more compassionate view, if appropriate. This is how I see it.

Mr. Ensor is very welcome.

Mr. Anthony Ensor

I thank the Deputy.

I want to get a sense of his vision for the board. He spoke about natural justice. We particularly think of the establishment of the position of Ombudsman as a very positive development in Irish democracy in recent decades. It is important that people have a right to appeal and it is good that the board will be entirely independent.

Mr. Anthony Ensor

As of yet, it does not have a website. However, the board has notified me - and because I am not yet chairman I must say this somewhat guardedly - that it feels easy-to-follow guidelines should be set out to make it easier for a person who may want to appeal a decision. This would be fairer. I intend to follow up on this once, and if, I become chairman. This would make it easier. We must remember the Act setting up the authority and the board is relatively new, dating from 2011, and the clear intention was to relieve the Ombudsman of this particular function. We see ourselves as doing the same job in a slightly different manner.

The organisation is still in its infancy. Does Mr. Ensor see any challenges ahead as he takes on the leadership role?

Mr. Anthony Ensor

It is probably a little early for me because this is a policy decision. I have referred the committee to the board, which is very strong from a personnel point of view. The people on it have huge experience and this can be seen without singling out anybody. These people have been working on it for several years. When they started to operate a number of appeals came through in a bit of a rush but this has now levelled off. The authority seems to be doing its job very well. We do not want to be functus officio but, at the same time, it is nice to know that not too many appeals are coming forward. This suggests people feel they are being dealt with properly by the authority. I see us as giving the benefit of compassion and fair procedures to people coming through because if they appeal a decision, they may feel that all matters were not considered by the authority.

The organisation is in its infancy so perhaps this matter may not be relevant and I ask Mr. Ensor to tell me if it is not. A number of people in the real estate business informed me recently that the property register is not up to much with regard to entering the price of houses. It does not detail the number of bedrooms or the style of house. It might cover the square footage but it does not provide the type of information necessary to protect its integrity. It should be like booking an airline ticket whereby if one does not have all of the boxes ticked and completed properly, one should not be able to register the price of a property. Auctioneers and real estate agents and, in particular, valuers find it very frustrating. This may have nothing whatsoever to do with Mr. Ensor's organisation or it may have a role in an advisory capacity.

Mr. Anthony Ensor

I not want to sound facetious, and I certainly take it on board, but this matter is definitely one for the authority. However, meetings will be held between the authority and the appeals board and we can certainly discuss with the authority matters which do not come specifically within our jurisdiction and with which we are not entitled to deal. This would be a matter for the authority.

Deputy Farrell has had serious concerns regarding this operation and the authority's attitude towards it. We might advise him to get the minutes of this meeting and make contact with Mr. Ensor when he is formally appointed.

Mr. Anthony Ensor

Certainly.

We wish Mr. Ensor well and thank him for coming before us today. We also wish the appeals board well in its work. We may not be here but I am sure the members of the next justice committee will be eager and anxious to invite Mr. Ensor back when he has his legs under the table in order that he might provide a progress report.

Mr. Anthony Ensor

It will be a pleasure.

We will now go into private session to deal with a few housekeeping matters.

The joint committee went into private session at 10.40 a.m., suspended at 10.55 a.m. and resumed in public session at 2.30 p.m.
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