Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality debate -
Wednesday, 16 Dec 2015

Welfare of Ex-Service Personnel: Discussion

Chairman

Apologies have been received from Senator Katherine Zappone. The purpose of this part of the meeting is to have an engagement with representatives of the Organisation of National Ex-Servicemen and Women and the Irish United Nations Veterans Association. The witnesses are all very welcome. I understand this is the first time they have been at an Oireachtas hearing. I apologise for the lack of attendance on the part of colleagues. There is a lot on this morning and people will probably drift in as the morning progresses. We are anxious to give the witnesses the opportunity to put on the Oireachtas record the work they are doing, the needs their members have and their plans for the future. This is a televised meeting so people will be able to watch the contributions of witnesses.

I welcome Mr. Ollie O'Connor, Mr. Derek Ryan, Mr. Richard Dillon, Mr. George Kerwin, Mr. Dan Garland, Mr. William Gilbert and Mr. Charlie Mott. I will ask contributors to make brief opening statements and we will follow up with questions and interaction with members. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members should be aware that under the salient rulings of the Chair, they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind those present to leave their mobile phones in silent or airplane mode in order that they will not interfere with the sound system and the broadcasting of proceedings.

I invite Mr. O'Connor to make his opening statement.

Mr. Ollie O'Connor

I thank the committee for allowing us to make this address today. I am accompanied by Mr. Derek Ryan, a member of the board of directors, and Mr. Richard Dillon, house manager of our largest residential home in Smithfield in Dublin.

Óglaigh Náisiúnta na hÉireann, the Organisation of National Ex-Service Personnel, ONE, is the oldest established veterans organisation in Ireland. ONE was established in 1951 with the amalgamation of the National Federation of Irish Ex-Servicemen and the Association of Regular Ex-Servicemen with the original intention of forming a single organisation to advance the general welfare of former members of Óglaigh na hÉireann. Currently there are approximately 1,400 members in over 40 branches throughout Ireland and overseas.

There were a number of tragic deaths of ex-servicemen on the streets of Dublin in the winter of 1988-89. As a result of these deaths a change in focus in ONE was needed and the decision was made to establish a residence for homeless ex-service personnel. This goal was achieved with the opening of the first Brú na bhFiann, a 20-bed home in Queen Street in Dublin in 1994. Since then further homes have been opened in Letterkenny, which is a seven-bed home, and Athlone, also with seven beds. A number of drop-in centres have been opened or are in development to cater for welfare issues of the ex-service community and their families. The home in Queen Street was replaced in 2005 with a new 40 en suite bedroom Brú na bhFiann in North King Street. This currently serves as the ONE headquarters as well as our premier home.

ONE was incorporated in 2000, Reg No: 328824, and is a company limited by guarantee without share capital. ONE is a registered charity, with Revenue No. CHY:13868 and regulatory authority No. RCN: 20044268. As a limited company, ONE accounts are audited and published annually. Audits of the local branch accounts are held annually by external auditors along with directors of the ONE.

The main object of ONE is the welfare of ex-service personnel, by way of providing accommodation to homeless, elderly or disabled ex-service personnel in need of such domestic accommodation and shelter and any other assistance required.

The charity has a number of subsidiary objectives - namely, to promote social, cultural and athletic activities; to develop a spirit of comradeship between serving and retired members of Óglaigh na hÉireann; to foster public interest in Óglaigh na hÉireann; to maintain liaison with organisations of ex-servicemen and ex-servicewomen in the European Union; and to do all such other things as will assist in achieving the above objectives and aims.

On the issue of funding, ONE funding is mainly achieved through fundraising. Our main fundraiser is the Fuchsia Appeal, which runs throughout the year, with the main push taking place in July, the month in which the national day of remembrance takes place. The fuchsia is intended as a generic emblem of remembrance to honour those currently in service and as a fundraiser. The fuchsia was chosen as it is apolitical, grows widely throughout Ireland and is known in the west of Ireland as deora Dé, or God’s tears. Two Irish Defence Force soldiers, Patrick Mullins from Kilbeheny on the Limerick-Tipperary border and Caomhán Seoighe from Inis Oírr, did not return from overseas service in the Congo and Lebanon, respectively, and are still officially listed as missing in action. All of the foregoing were considered when the fuchsia was chosen. The first Fuchsia Appeal was launched in 2009 and raised €14,000. The 2014 appeal raised €56,000. This year, the amount is similar. It is our intention that the fuchsia will be adopted as the official emblem of remembrance, and we want to see it worn widely by the Defence Forces, those in the public service, politicians and the media in the month of July, similar to the wearing of the poppy in the UK, and more recently in Ireland, during the month of November and le bleuet de France, the cornflower.

Other fundraising methods include a weekly lotto, a Defence Forces race day, raffles, flag days, church gate collections and other events. These events are organised and run by our members within branches throughout the country. We also receive support from some serving and retired service personnel in the form of fixed donations through their salaries or pensions.

As a charity providing accommodation within three local authority areas, we receive some funding. However, it is disappointing that the level is so low considering the number of homeless ex-service personnel that we cater for. Each bed in emergency accommodation in Dublin costs approximately €28,000 a year, with beds in supported temporary accommodation costing approximately €29,000. These figures are from the State's most recent homeless implementation plan. The nightly cost per person is approximately €75. Brú na bhFiann receives €182,850 in section 10 funding annually from Dublin City Council. This equates to approximately €16.69 per person per night. We do not receive any funding on an ongoing basis from Westmeath County Council. Custume House received €1,000 in grant funding in 2015. This equates to approximately 39 cent per night. We do not receive any funding on an ongoing basis from Donegal County Council. Beechwood House received €350 in grant funding in 2015. This equates to approximately 14 cent per night. These figures are shocking. However, all three local authorities provided substantial capital funding to the homes during the refurbishment and purchase stages.

ONE has a very close relationship with other veteran organisations, in particular the Irish United Nations Veterans Association, IUNVA. In conjunction with IUNVA and the Association of Retired Commissioned Officers, ARCO, ONE advocates of behalf of veterans. All three organisations meet regularly and hold discussions with the Department of Defence officials and other Departments as required. ONE and IUNVA also host training courses together, such as welfare case worker training courses, two of which were held in 2015. A veteran’s affairs policy has been agreed between the three ex-service personnel organisations and it is hoped this will form the blueprint for the future of the State's response to ex-service personnel issues and their interaction with the Department of Defence and the military authorities while no longer serving.

There are a number of aspects to ONE. As a unique organisation and based upon the loyalty and comradeship that is fostered in the military, ONE ensures that there is a social aspect to the organisation. Therefore, at national level, it regularly organises overseas trips to historical sites, and weekend and day trips to places of interest within Ireland are organised by the various branches. These events are all self-financing and moneys raised for charitable purposes are used for that purpose only.

ONE takes part in various ceremonial events nationally and locally, such as the annual Niemba ambush remembrance ceremony, which is hosted by ONE, and the national day of remembrance. These events are an important part of our business. Military service can be arduous and people have given the ultimate sacrifice both at home and on foreign service. Therefore, we organise remembrance events that families and former colleagues attend to remember those who have passed.

To conclude, we are primarily a charitable organisation catering for and advocating on behalf of the needs of homeless ex-service personnel within our society. To do this we fundraise and depend on donations and grant aid from the State. This grant aid is much appreciated, but it needs to be increased substantially. As can be ascertained from the figures above, we provide 16,060 bed nights per year to homeless ex-service colleagues. This is a substantial figure to cater for, considering the implications if these people were still living in the various hostels and overnight accommodation available nationwide. We therefore are continuing during 2016 to engage and lobby the State and other bodies for funding and resources to enable us as a charity to shoulder the burden of housing those ex-service personnel, thereby relieving the already strained Exchequer of direct responsibility. We seek this committee's continued support and help in raising our profile and creating public and State awareness of issues with regard to homeless ex-service personnel.

Chairman

I thank Mr. O'Connor for his presentation and for the work his organisation is doing. One of the reasons we invited the organisation here today was to help raise its profile and let people know about the work it is doing. I now call on Mr. Kerwin.

Mr. George Kerwin

I am going to outline the key points in the establishment of the Irish United Nations Veterans Association, IUNVA, its development and its activities. I hope we can flesh out these points in the subsequent discussion.

During the late 1980s, there was a growing interest among serving and retired members of the Defence Forces in the idea of establishing an organisation that would represent those who had volunteered to serve overseas and who had made a valuable contribution to world peace. From the departure of the first Irish volunteers to the Lebanon in 1958 to 1990, more than 32,000 Irish troops have served with the United Nations in various trouble spots around the world. The first formal meeting to discuss the establishment of IUNVA was held in Dublin on 10 February 1990 and an interim committee was formed. At the first annual general meeting on 6 October 1990, held in the Eastern Health Board social club at Grangegorman, the constitution of IUNVA was ratified and the first national executive committee was elected. The constitution stated, inter alia, that the association would be non-political, non-sectarian and non-denominational. The Minister for Defence gave formal approval for the formation of the association. Membership was to be offered to any Irish citizen who had satisfactorily completed a tour of duty with a United Nations peacekeeping force or another UN-backed organisation, whether he or she was serving or retired. Hence, members of An Garda Síochána and civilian personnel who fulfilled the foregoing criteria were welcome to join IUNVA.

With a national executive established in Dublin, the next move was to establish what we called posts throughout the country. Post 1 was established in Dublin, soon to be followed by plans for posts in Dundalk, Wexford and Kildare. The early months and years of the organisation were hectic. Properties had to be found, a flag, crest and uniform designed and standing orders drawn up to ensure the proper day-to-day running of the association. Today, IUNVA has 21 posts around the country, in locations stretching from Donegal to Galway, Kerry, Cork, Wexford and throughout the midlands. These posts represent an active membership of 1,200. The families and extended families of active and deceased members who benefit from the services and activities of IUNVA also constitute quite a significant number. The pride and pleasure that members taken in their posts is there for all to see. A post is a social club, a second home, a home where the hundreds of photographs and memorabilia decorating the walls tell their own stories.

Post 1 IUNVA is located at Arbour Hill and is adjacent to the 1916 plot. I extend an invitation to all members of the joint committee to visit Post 1 to see, at first hand, exactly what I have talked about.

The aims and objectives of the association give a very good idea of the activities of its members. These objectives include: to provide an advice and counselling service for members and their families; to organise social, cultural and sporting activities for members and their families; and to establish, maintain and encourage contact with associations similarly constituted in other countries. In order to deal with the welfare needs of members and their families the association has a national welfare officer and there are also trained welfare offices in all of the posts. The advice and assistance of these officers is regularly requested and greatly valued.

IUNVA works closely with ONE and has a seat on the Defence Forces benevolent fund board. IUNVA is often the first point of contact for former members of the Defence Forces who have fallen on hard times. When a member or former member of IUNVA dies, we ensure, irrespective of his or her circumstances, that the deceased gets a proper burial which recognises the service he or she has given. To this end, IUNVA has purchased a number of plots in cemeteries throughout the country. Over half of the posts have, with the help and co-operation of their local communities, erected monuments to those who lost their lives in the cause of peace. At national level, the 93 Irishmen, which includes members of the Defence Forces, the Garda Síochána and civilians, who lost their lives while serving with the UN are commemorated at an annual wreath-laying ceremony at the IUNVA monument on Arbour Hill in May. Next year, the ceremony will be held on International Peacekeepers' Day, Sunday, 29 May, and I ask members to note that date in their diaries.

Ceremonies are an important part of our programme every year. These include national ceremonies and ceremonies organised by IUNVA, ONE, the Royal British Legion and local councils. The Irish soldier, as a peacekeeper, is second to none and his or her services will continue to be sought by the United Nations. Peacekeeping is demanding and often dangerous work. Adjusting to a normal way of life on returning home can make its own demands on individuals. For these people, IUNVA will be there. For those who do not return home, IUNVA will ensure that they will never be forgotten.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Kerwin for his statement. Deputy Mac Lochlainn has indicated his wish to contribute and I know he must leave shortly.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

I apologise that I must leave in about ten minutes but I wanted to be here to listen to the presentations. I wish to acknowledge the fact that this is an important and historical occasion because it is the first time that both organisations have presented to the Oireachtas. I want to extend the immense gratitude of the Irish people to the members of the Defence Forces who have served at home and abroad. We are particularly proud of our contribution to peacekeeping across the world and the reputation of the Irish Defence Forces is immense. We are very grateful to the Defence Forces.

Today, the committee is tasked with finding out what supports that the organisations need and how these Houses can assist that process. My first two questions are for IUNVA and I have some questions for ONE. IUNVA ensures that members get a proper funeral and burial, which is a hugely important support to provide. What services does IUNVA provide? Where does IUNVA's funding come from? I assume it would be good if IUNVA could secure appropriate funding from State sources that would complement the fundraising efforts of the organisation. I ask IUNVA to tease out those matters and then it will be the turn of ONE.

Mr. George Kerwin

Initially, we get €10,000 a year from the Government. Thereafter, it costs between €70, 000 and €80,000 to run the organisation every year and the balance of that money is raised by fund-raising events. We do not have a national fund-raising day but each of the 21 posts raises its own funds. Each month they submit their accounts to our financial man for monitoring. Each post looks after its own business and raises its own funds to meet its needs.

As soon as a member dies, we appoint a liaison officer to assist the family, if the deceased has a family. In such instances, we discuss with the family whether they want an honour guard, a flag and a piper which we can provide. If the deceased does not have a grave or a plot then we can provide same. We deal with family, we ask them what they would like us to do and then we provide anything that we can including, if the funeral is anywhere in the immediate area of a post, providing a reception for the people afterwards. We look after all of their needs to the best of our ability.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

I am disappointed by the amount that ONE has received from some of the local authorities and, as a Donegal man, I shall make representations to Donegal County Council. The organisation has acknowledged that the councils provided funding for capital building projects and to get the houses under way. Why have the councils not built in a reasonable allocation in their housing budgets?

In terms of the homeless, ONE has intervened which has meant that the number of people homeless has been reduced. Does ONE track the number of homeless persons who are ex-service personnel? Does ONE work with other homelessness organisations on the issue? From what I can see, ONE has not received any Government funding. I was unaware of the Fuchsia Appeal. I like the idea of choosing the fuchsia because it is known in the west of Ireland as God's tears. The appeal could grow in the imagination of the Irish people. The Houses of the Oireachtas can do more to promote the scheme and perhaps we could launch the appeal here. The Chairman is a huge advocate of the Defence Forces. All of the time that he has been Chairman of this committee, he has championed the issues of the Defence Forces. I am sure my suggestion is something that we will want to do in the new term. I would like to hear the ideas and thoughts of ONE on all of what I have mentioned. The Fuchsia Appeal has immense potential to raise funds for various organisations, if that could be agreed.

Mr. Ollie O'Connor

We receive Government funding that amounts to €40,000 per year and we are seeking additional funding at present. We launched the Fuchsia Appeal in 2009 and have built on it year by year but we need a big boost. We acknowledge that public relations is a big problem in our organisation and we are working on same. Mr. Derek Ryan will talk about the appeal in a couple of minutes.

In terms of funding from local authorities, over the years - both before and during my time - we have made presentations to and met various regional and local authorities. On those occasions they gave us the impression that their hands are tied. They have claimed that the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government would not allow them to support us because originally they were given capital funding which means their hands are tied in this area on an ongoing basis.

In terms of homeless people, we are involved with the Dublin Homeless Network so we are in touch with all of the organisations. As part of the network, we met the Lord Mayor of Dublin recently. We have very good communications with and received assistance from the Dublin Regional Homeless Executive which helps us as much as it can. We have sought additional moneys from the executive one way or another, either through projects or to add to the annual funding. We work continuously to increase funding. Was there anything else?

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

No, Mr. O'Connor has covered all of my queries.

Chairman

Does Mr. Ryan wish to comment?

Mr. Derek Ryan

Yes.

Mr. Ollie O'Connor

Mr. Ryan will comment on public relations.

Mr. Derek Ryan

I thank the Deputies for their comments and I thank the Chairman for inviting us here this morning. Its an immensely proud day for ONE and for me, as an ex-serviceman, to come here to advocate on behalf of less well-off servicemen from both the Permanent Defence Force and the Reserve Defence Force.

As the committee will know, we are not a militaristic State but we have contributed hugely and punched above our weight in terms of the United Nations, the EU and everything else that we have contributed troops to over the years. Public awareness in this country is lacking or is not as robust as in other countries - including our nearest neighbour - where people take immense pride in the service of those who have gone before them.

My role on the board of directors of the Organisation of National Ex-Service Personnel, ONE, especially for 2016 as well as in previous years, has been to raise our profile through the fuchsia appeal. I am delighted to hear Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn has bought into the idea and agrees that the appeal is relevant and unique to Ireland.

There are 100,000 ex-service personnel, from both the Reserve and Permanent Defence Force, and their families living in the State. That is a huge number of people who have given service. We have many former garrison towns in which the military served in past decades and more recently. There is a network and we are trying to tap into it. One way for us to raise our profile and ability to fundraise is by getting cross-party support from Deputies, Senators and councillors to wear the fuchsia for the month of July. They could also try to get national and private broadcasters to buy into the concept that service to the State came at a high price which is still being paid by service personnel who have various issues. It behoves us, as an organisation, along the Irish UN Veterans Association, IUNVA, and the State to try to look after the people concerned.

Mr. O'Connor mentioned a veterans' affairs policy which we drafted in conjunction with the IUNVA and the Association of Retired Commissioned Officers, ARCO. The policy sets out, for the first time, a blueprint for how the State can interact with veterans, primarily with ONE and the IUNVA, and then the ARCO. It sets out what the State can provide and how it should provide it. In a utopian world the State would supply everything, but we know that is not possible. In fairness to the State, the recently retired Chief of Staff, the Defence Forces, the Department and the various agencies involved, they have started to interact at a local level with veterans who are preparing to leave the Defence Forces. I am speaking primarily about those who may have medical issues. If they are in the care of consultants or similar, the care will continue after they leave the Defence Forces. The side gates of barracks, in effect, are left open in order that when these personnel finish their military service, their medical files will be kept by the Defence Forces and they can continue to receive their care. In fairness to the Minister, Deputy Simon Coveney, and the Department, the recently published White Paper on Defence includes veterans' affairs as a policy issue. It would be brilliant if it was given priority in the future.

The next part of the policy was communications. We have had issues with the various Departments in recent years. Through no fault of any elected individual or civil servant, there is a distinct lack of understanding of what the Fuchsia Appeal is actually about. The ball has been passed from one Department to another which can be quite frustrating, although it is nobody's fault. In conjunction with our brothers and colleagues in the IUNVA and the ARCO, we have proposed that there be a communications policy drafted between the various stakeholder agencies within the defence family. That policy would lay out who should contacts whom, what the remit of each department was and who the go-to people were for various issues.

As Mr. O'Connor and Mr. Kirwan have stated, we meet the Department of Defence and the military authorities a number of times a year in force headquarters, FHQ. We are in the process of setting up an inter-body group to explore this issue further and hope the joint committee will have an input. Ultimately, it is the Executive that will be responsible for implementing our communications policy. The 2016 centenary commemorations are coming upon us hard and fast. The Department of the Taoiseach is responsible for certain events, while various other Departments have other responsibilities. It would be good to tighten up on who has responsibility for what. From our position, when that happens, there will not be an ad hoc approach but a more structured one which will benefit everybody. That is basically my role.

Chairman

Mr. O'Connor wanted to come back in briefly.

Mr. Ollie O'Connor

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn asked if there was tracking of homeless ex-service personnel. There are no statistical data other than for the people who have contacted health managers. As with all homelessness cases, there are views and bias as to how somebody became homeless, although it can happen for various reasons. If we have time, Mr. Dillon might outline the situation and the problems some of homeless people have. We are not always competent to deal with these problems and believe the State has left us with issues that could be handled better somewhere else.

Chairman

Deputy Gabrielle McFadden and Senator Martin Conway have indicated. We will ask Mr. Dillon for an outline later.

Deputy Gabrielle McFadden

I apologise for being late. I was on quorum duty and, unfortunately, I do not yet have the powers of bilocation, although I am trying.

As a Deputy from a garrison town, I am very proud of the Defence Forces and all their members, both serving and retired, as is nearly everybody in my town. We have a very proud history with the Defence Forces. When I was elected in the by-election last year, one of the pictures that had been on the wall in my late dear sister's office when I came in was a lovely one of her with the UN veterans who had visited her in 2007. It is the only picture I stole back out of the box and put up on my wall and it is still on it. I am happy to say the UN veterans from Athlone are coming to visit me here in January and I will have a picture taken with them which I will cherish.

One of the things about which I am pleased from the White Paper and the day of the symposium in Farmleigh is that the ARCO and all of the organisations were named in the White Paper. We will lobby the Minister to make sure it is not just a policy issue but that we make them a priority. I will be very happy to wear the fuchsia in July, regardless of whether I am a Deputy at the time.

I am very concerned about the Westmeath County Council grant for ONE. While I acknowledge the allocation of capital funding, I am very concerned about a grant of €0.39 per night. How much does it actually cost per night for a bed in Athlone?

As I am helping a few ex-servicemen, I am very conscious of post-traumatic stress disorder. Is there a bigger picture about which I do not know? I have a couple of people for whom I am looking out. How widespread is it among ex-servicemen and are they getting the support they need?

Rather than talking about the broad difficulties, are there specific things we could do as elected representatives to help the delegates?

Chairman

There were three questions asked.

There is the cost of funding per night in Athlone. There are specific issues such as post-traumatic stress and other issues. Mr. Kerwin might also like to comment on post traumatic stress.

Mr. Ollie O'Connor

What we allow per day for food per person is €2.70. I can give the Chairman a global figure. It costs between €500,000 and €600,000 per year to keep the three homes open.

Deputy Gabrielle McFadden

How much?

Mr. Ollie O'Connor

It costs between €500,000 and €600,000. We employ 16 staff, 50% of whom would be part-time. In the homes in Athlone and Letterkenny, both the house manager and chef work part-time as we do not have the funding. In the larger house, in particular, we have the expense of providing lifts and meeting the fire safety regulations. We must comply with health and safety legislation. We incur expenses that one would not normally think about.

Chairman

I presume most of the ex-service personnel would have an Army pension or other pensions. Do they contribute?

Mr. Ollie O'Connor

About 40%.

Chairman

Would they not have the full 21 years service?

Mr. Ollie O'Connor

No, they would not. Most people who join the Defence Forces leave without a pension. They might serve for any number of years fewer than 21 years. The way we view it is that we served with these people and when they are in trouble, we want to help them.

Chairman

I presume that a person who would leave after three years service would be quite young. People would be eligible for the State pension when they reach that age. Do they make a contribution?

Mr. Ollie O'Connor

They do but it is based on their means. We provide full bed and board service. The house manager would be able to speak on this. On average, they would contribution around €120 per week. However, the person might be in receipt of rent allowance or be on a pension.

Chairman

Mr. Kerwin might be best placed to talk about post traumatic stress from his experience abroad.

Mr. George Kerwin

We come up against this quite regularly. There is a problem as we would have people who experience PTSD, who do not realise they have it. I was talking to a gentleman two years ago about his near death experience when he was serving with the UN and he told me he had not had a proper night's sleep since that event three or four years earlier. We have to try to talk to them and let them know there is help. We can offer a certain level of help. We have welfare officers who will work with people who have had these experiences. We have provided professional help for individuals from time to time but we do not have the expertise to bring the support we can offer to the next level, which is often needed. What is required are lines of communication to other authorities and sources, to point people in the direction of availing of professional help for which they would not bear the cost or that we could get funding for specific cases so that we could help them. We do not know the extent of post traumatic stress but we keep coming up against cases of it. Believe it or not, the taxi driver who brought me to this meeting told me about his friend, who cracked up some time ago, an ex-sergeant who badly needs help. I asked him to get in touch with one of our posts. We need to get them to realise the situation they are in and to get people through the barrier of pride to ask for help. We can go so far in helping those who experience post traumatic stress but we need funding to bring that help to another level.

Senator Martin Conway

This is a fascinating discussion. I welcome the witnesses and thank them for their presentations.

In regard to funding, we should consider what our neighbouring countries are doing. Are the local authorities the most appropriate body to provide funding? Should the funding come from the Department of Defence or from central government as opposed to one local authority stepping up to the plate? Has the option of funding from central government or the Department been looked at? How is the service funded in other countries?

I would recommend, and the witnesses seem to have done this, that they should make presentations to the councillors as this would raise their profile and it might, as Deputy Mac Lochlainn suggested earlier, get the project incorporated into the local authority housing budget.

Chairman

The Senator raised the question of comparing the supports for ex-service people in Ireland and those available in other jurisdictions?

Mr. Ollie O'Connor

In most western jurisdictions, there would be a minister with responsibility for veterans affairs. In America, there are veterans' hospitals, education grants and other supports for veterans. Britain, our nearest neighbour, would have a substantial veterans' policy and would have an Under Secretary of State with responsibility for Veterans Affairs. They work hand in glove with the Royal British Legion and SSAFA, which are part of the decision-making process. Similar organisations like ourselves in Britain would be very much part of the establishment. The Organisation of National Ex-Service Personnel Ireland is a long time on the go but is only becoming known.

Chairman

Does Senator O'Donovan wish to comment?

Senator Denis O'Donovan

I wish to apologise for being late. I acknowledge the great work the Organisation of National Ex-Service Personnel Ireland has done over the years. I appreciate what the organisation is doing. It is great that a body exists that will protect those who fall through the cracks. I hope that the supports for the organisation will improve, particularly in 2016, when there should be a greater focus not only by politicians but as my colleague, Senator Conway, said by the local authorities. The general public are ignorant of what this organisation is trying to achieve. However, the organisation must be commended for the great work it is doing. By appearing before the joint committee, the organisation is creating a focus on what it is trying to achieve. That must be recognised at all levels from the Minister right down to Deputies and Senators. I thank the witnesses and wish them a peaceful Christmas.

Chairman

I invite Mr. Dillon to comment on some of the points Mr. O'Connor and Deputy McFadden raised earlier.

Mr. Richard Dillon

I manage a facility called Brú na bhFiann in Smithfield Dublin. This is a 40-bedroom facility, of which 30 bedrooms are taken up under a homeless initiative with the remaining ten bedrooms used for helping serving members of the Defence Forces, our own members and other organisations which need overnight accommodation because people are in hospitals.

The reason people present to Brú na bhFiann is as a result of the lack of social housing for single people. The rent level in private rented sector is too high and those on pensions or in receipt of payments from the Department of Social Protection simply cannot afford it. Issues such as family breakdown, much of which is due to their military service, addiction and the current Defence Forces policy on retention are also factors. We are the only armed forces in Europe where members who do not reach a certain rank must leave. When people who join the Defence Forces at age 17 or 18 reach 28 or 29 years, they are suddenly out of a job and the Defence Forces do not want to know them and have no backup mechanisms for them. These people have no accommodation and most of them will end up without a job.

Basically, that is why we are dealing with so many people at the moment.

Chairman

Thank you. That is fascinating. You said that we are the only country with this policy. It has been said to us that the Defence Forces are primarily made up of young people, especially in the low ranks, as one needs to be young and fit in order to do what they do. We had a discussion with the Minister and others in the past. There are 1,400 members in the Organisation of National Ex-Service Personnel, ONE, with 100,000 former service personnel. Is there scope for more people to get involved with ONE and are there plans to increase membership?

Mr. Ollie O'Connor

There are ongoing plans, as Mr. Ryan stated earlier. It is part of our public relations campaign and our strategic plan for the next five years. We will try to grow the organisation. It is currently difficult to get people to join anything.

Chairman

Indeed.

Mr. Ollie O'Connor

The home seems to be the centre of life, with people watching television or computers. People do not leave the home as much as they used to or join the various voluntary bodies that are seeking members. We are one of them.

Chairman

That seems to be the case across the board with many organisations. The witness is absolutely right. I am conscious that Mr. Garland, Mr. Gilbert and Mr. Mott are here as well. Do they wish to make any comment?

Mr. Dan Garland

We have only two places for accommodation. One is in the military barracks at Mullingar and the other is in the Curragh Camp. We are limited to approximately three people in those places. We were throwing around an idea at our last meeting that we might request some of the closed Garda barracks around the country and look after the issue ourselves. We hope we might get a few euro to help, so we can provide accommodation and have a headquarters. Most of our meetings around the country are held in one room in a pub or whatever.

With regard to post-traumatic stress disorder, PTSD, a girl came into our No. 1 post and spoke to people at the beginning. That was perhaps 18 years ago. Some of the people she spoke to appreciated her and it helped them but we could not afford to keep her on. We would have liked to have done so. We have people coming in on Thursdays and Sundays who have problems. I cannot say if it was PTSD, as I am not qualified to do so. We sit them down, have a chat with them and give them a cup of coffee, a biscuit or whatever is going. We try to get them out on to parades and the St. Patrick's Day parades, in particular. We do that all over the country. Currently, we are trying to organise our own pipe band. It will cost in the region of €20,000 to organise the band with pipes, uniforms, etc. We have taken part in St. Patrick's Day parades in New York on a number of occasions. A number of people are going over to lay wreaths at the Cenotaph in London and we have worked with the Royal British Legion of the North. Currently, we are most concerned with parades but we would love to get into the issue of premises and accommodation.

Mr. Charlie Mott

There are a few points we might have missed. All of the members of the Irish United Nations Veterans Association, IUNVA, are volunteers; we do not get paid and we work on our own time. There is a kind of misconception as many members of the public might see us coming in here, dressed in our finery and say those guys are on a handy number. We do not get paid and we do this because we care. It is the same with ONE.

We have offices around the country in Dublin, Mullingar, Fermoy, Portlaoise and Clonmel, and they are open Monday to Friday from 10 a.m. until 2 p.m. They are manned by volunteers. We have a girl in Dublin and a girl in Portlaoise on a work experience programmes. There is a turn over every year, so just as peope gets used to the job, they are moved on. We need people on a permanent basis, as people are coming in off the streets. We have spoken about PTSD. Last week in Portlaoise, where I am from, an ex-member came in who is in a lot of trouble. I hope we will be able to point him in the right direction. We have an ad hoc system that we would like to put in place properly so we can direct people to the personal support services or, if they need it, the Army benevolent fund. We need to tie this down better. Welfare matters are a big priority for us and we, along with ONE, have come a good bit on that in recent years.

We have 1,200 members and we have 800 subscribers. They pay us €2 per month out of their pension and 170 of those are widows of persons who have served. It is our priority to take care of these people as well. They have served overseas and if they come to us with problems, we contact ONE, which takes care of them from then. The two organisations work closely. I thank the committee for the chance to speak today.

Mr. William Gilbert

We have talked about how we try to help those who are living with problems but one of our objectives is to remember our dead. As far as I know, before our organisation came along, there was nothing to commemorate the more than 90 people who have lost their lives overseas, most of them violently. We have erected monuments with those people's names on them. I cannot remember where they all are off the top of my head but there are at least a dozen centres around Ireland. It is very important to us that we remember those people, and it is one of our objectives that those people should never be forgotten.

Chairman

It is a very important point and thank you for reminding us of that.

Mr. William Gilbert

All of those monuments were erected with local contributions from different areas. There were collections and flag days in towns and villages in which the monuments were erected.

Mr. Derek Ryan

To follow up on Mr. Gilbert's comments, today is the 54th anniversary of the Battle of the Tunnel in Elizabethville in Congo, when three of our comrades were killed in battle. We should remember that on this day, 54 years ago, the Irish Army went into combat on behalf of the United Nations.

Chairman

This is a poignant coincidence.

Mr. Derek Ryan

It is a poignant day and we had a remembrance ceremony at McKee Barracks on Sunday for the three deceased members.

Deputy McFadden asked what the committee could do to help the veterans, and I speak on behalf of IUNVA as well. Funding is our top priority. We spoke about highlighting the need for the Fuchsia appeal. I am delighted to hear so many Deputies and Senators, including the Chair, stating they would support this appeal in future. The last element is the idea of veterans' affairs and the covenant. We spoke about a covenant between the State and its organisations, including veteran organisations. Topics for discussion among ourselves - and I hope with elected representatives, as God willing, we will see them all in the new year - include terms and conditions of service prior to discharge and retirement for service personnel, both reservists and Permanent Defence Forces personnel. Some reservists have many decades of service to the State and they do not get a pension. They are not recognised officially by the State. It is important that reservists, as well as our Defences Forces, would prior to discharge have some form of interaction with regard to terms and conditions of service.

There is also the issue of health care. I know young men and women colleagues who have left the Defence Forces. While they were in the Defence Forces, things happened, and they were in the care of psychiatric staff.

The day they were discharged from the Defence Forces the care and help stopped. A covenant would fill that crack such that the health care would continue. It is cost neutral for the State to do that because the Defence Forces already have the medical personnel and facilities that the former soldier would have had access to, as well as the soldier’s file, rather than putting the soldier out the gate to join a long waiting list for a HSE clinic.

Education is another service soldiers need before retirement. In America and in certain European countries when servicemen are coming to retirement places are made available for vocational training within local authorities and institutes of technology because while the skills we learn in service are of massive benefit to the State they need to be retuned and re-honed and given direction. There is a possibility that the State could help service personnel coming out of service to re-skill and up-skill, thereby giving them skill sets so that they do not have to rely on our meagre resources.

They should have priority access to State-sponsored housing schemes. If they were injured or invalided out of the Defence Forces they need help in ensuring that appropriate accommodation is made available. Many have been discharged in recent years from the Defence Forces with problems they believe are related to Lariam. I am not saying they are or not but it is a live topic. Very young men and women have been discharged and are finding it hard to cope coming out of an institution, whether they have been there for three, six or 21 years, where everything is provided and they have to dip into a meagre pension. A half pension after 21 years as a private is not a large sum of money. They need access to financial and tax advice prior to discharge. When I retired from the Defence Forces the world of tax affairs and filling in tax forms was completely alien to me but I was married to a tax consultant.

The State has a positive moral obligation to maintain the organisations that provide direct access to support for veterans thus allowing those with unique knowledge of prior service to act in the best interests of the veterans. Military service, like service as an elected representative, is a unique part of Irish society that the greater public does not have access to. I know many elected representatives who have said they would need post-traumatic stress disorder, PTSD, counselling after their term.

Deputy Gabrielle McFadden

After a general election.

Mr. Derek Ryan

The Permanent Defence Force is not running for election every few years. It is a huge family and with State help we could organise ourselves for health insurance purposes. The appropriate supports should be included in the covenant to assist the transition from military life to civilian life. I spoke about a support post-service to involve an obligation for life to reflect the commitment and sacrifices made by the veterans and their families during service as well as their continuing value to society. This should be properly recognised in the support they receive but that is not the case at the moment. Those injured who have service-related health conditions should receive additional support, which may be financial or access to the appropriate social services. They should get some priority. The services exist but my experience is that some people have fallen through the cracks, between the Irish United Nations Veterans Association and our organisation, and have ended up in early graves.

Bereaved families should be included in any discussions post-service. The State has failed abjectly and miserably in respect of families of those who have died in State service because of its bureaucracy, not through wanton malice in any State organisation. I know families of deceased members have had problems when trying to interact with the State. Most recently we were part of the Justice for Smallhorne and Barrett campaign, for two of our comrades who were unlawfully killed while on UN service. There was a lacuna between the Defence Forces and the State in advocating the return of the person accused to Lebanon. The veterans mobilised.

We want formal recognition by the State of veterans, whether reservists or others. In the United Kingdom when people apply for State services there is a box to be ticked if the person is a veteran or has military service. I am assured that when people apply for State services in Ireland they should be added as a criterion to give somebody a bit of credit for time and service given to the State.

Deputy McFadden asked what this committee can do for us. The answer is money, money, money.

Chairman

We can make that point. This hearing will be watched and noted by others outside. We will communicate with the Department of Defence and the Minister.

I welcome Senator Craughwell who is a former serving member to the committee. He may have something to add to the discussion.

Mr. Richard Dillon

At the moment we have a 51 year old resident. He served for 21 years in the Defence Forces. He is suffering from Huntington’s disease. Two years ago his private landlord evicted him. We took him on as a temporary measure. He is still living with us. He is in the third and final stage of his illness, which means he is dying. I have to work on the front line and while all the words are fine, we are struggling with the HSE. It has granted approval for him to go into proper care but the care home does not have the room for him. It is coming up to Christmas and he is dying. Our facility is not the place for him but we will not put him out on the street. That is the reality for some ex-service people. Those issues must be dealt with in a more compassionate way. It is not good enough that somebody who gave military service is treated like that.

Chairman

For Senator Craughwell’s information, this is the first time these organisations have come to the Oireachtas. We are holding this hearing to give them an opportunity to voice their concerns and issues.

Mr. Dan Garland

To follow what Mr. Gilbert said about remembering the dead, I served in the Congo in 1960. When I joined this organisation almost 20 years ago and attended one or two funerals I thought of the people who had died from the 32nd, 33rd and 34th battalions. There was no briefing before we left Ireland and no debriefing when we got home. We were handed £25 and told we had 30 days holidays and then to return for duty. We went to the Congo dressed and equipped to travel to the Arctic.

Chairman

The old bull’s wool.

Mr. Dan Garland

I do not know how many of those people felt when they came back. Luckily, it did not affect me but it affected many people. They are the ones we should be thinking of today because there are still people going out there. They now have great facilities and they do an excellent job.

I was in Canada five years ago and found out where the veterans were located in Toronto. They have a wing in a huge hospital there, similar to St. Vincent’s Hospital or Beaumont here. Ex-army doctors and nurses are employed in that wing to cater for those in the hospital.

Mr. George Kerwin

Mr. Garland referred to people's experiences overseas. A huge part of our history has been lost in terms of the experience of soldiers on the ground. We have put together a group within IUNVA to go around the country and sit down with veterans of the Congo and the Middle East to ask them what happened to them and to record their experiences. Last year I was in the presence of some cadets in the military college and was talking about the Suez Canal, air fights overhead and artillery coming in, and they were looking at me as though I had come from another planet. I am one of many veterans whose experiences are not recorded anywhere. We all learned from the people who went out to the Congo without being briefed or prepared, with the consequences we saw, and now we are one of the best prepared and equipped units anywhere in the world. Irish military personnel are on duty in 16 locations around the world.

We would love to see a monument, preferably in Dublin, to what this country has contributed to making this world a better and safer place to live in. This is not just about the Army but about gardaí as well, and civilians who have gone abroad and made a major contribution to making this world a better and safer place to live in. It should be recognised and this is something we are pursuing, so I would like members to support it.

The Irish soldier is very special overseas. I was visiting a unit as press officer 20 years ago and there was a soldier on duty who had arrived only a month earlier. There was a footpath going into the village where he was on duty and, while I was chatting to him and asking him what he was doing and how he was getting on with the local people, he told me to watch a schoolboy, aged six or seven, coming down the path with his schoolbag on his way to school. As he approached the sentry the soldier came to attention, saluted the little boy and said "Dia dhuit, Mohammed." The little boy saluted him back and said "Dia's Muire dhuit, soldier." One cannot train that. It was this young man's nature, and that was his contribution to peace in the world.

Chairman

That is unique, indeed.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

As a card-carrying member of ONE myself, I am delighted to see the witnesses from ONE and the UN vets here today. When I left the Army back in 1980, soldiers were forgotten once they had walked out the gate. Many soldiers fell on very hard times and I have met many who fell on hard times that were beyond belief. ONE and the UN vets have provided a focus for former members to remain engaged and we owe them a huge debt of gratitude for that.

On the subject of recognising veterans, it is not uncommon in other parts of the world for veterans to have a lapel badge to identify them as veterans, and that is something we should do. The idea of a monument to serving members from the civilian forces, the gardaí and the Army is not before time. My first recollection of the Defence Forces in Ireland was the funerals after the Niemba massacre. It was on my birthday and I listened all night to the death march on Raidió Éireann. I served with Captain Gleeson's brother, Fergus Gleeson, in Galway so I have a huge affinity with them. We are unique in having provided an army of peace, not a fighting army. Many of our soldiers have died in the service of peace, not war, and this needs to be recognised.

The need for pre-discharge or pre-demobilisation education was raised. In Carlow recently, I saw 200 members of the Defence Forces of all ranks graduate with FETAC level 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 qualifications. I commend our Defence Forces on this, as we are one of the few armies in the world that have been brave enough to engage with education, and we now have private soldiers with academic qualifications similar to those of their officers. As I said at a recent EU interparliamentary committee meeting on education, I am concerned by those who do not access education. There is no requirement to access education, but when a soldier comes to the end of his service, as Mr. Dillon said, he will need skills to survive outside the barracks. Many in this room will recall the days when soldiers came to the end of their service and quietly lived on in a barracks until they died. Nobody passed any remarks about the fact that a person was living in such quarters having long since ceased to serve as an active soldier. This does not happen any more, and soldiers now serve an average of five years. The turnover is rapid, as job opportunities are there and people are better educated. After a period of overseas travel they have greater opportunities so they do not stay in the Defence Forces as long as they used to.

Education and health are the two areas we should put some sort of funding towards in recognition of service to the State. I propose a transition period in the last two years of a soldier's life, to be given over to preparing him, through educational or resettlement programmes, to enter civilian life. I acknowledge the work of ONE and the UN vets. The work done by both organisations is incredible in the short time they have been in existence.

Mr. Ollie O'Connor

In our initial oral submission to the White Paper body, one of the points we made was the need to prepare people for civilian life. We wanted to equate military service with academic qualifications. I worked previously with PDFORRA and some progress has been made in that area, with Carlow IT now awarding diplomas and degrees. We were also looking for simple things, such as showing somebody how to do a CV. We can strip and assemble a rifle but doing a CV is another thing. We mentioned transition because other forces have arrangements for the transition to civilian life, in which the last two years, or even six months, of the service of a soldier is devoted to preparing him for civilian life. This might include going out to work somewhere else, and it is something we intend to push.

Chairman

A military life and life in a barracks can be quite sheltered, especially if one is single.

Deputy Gabrielle McFadden

Everything I wanted to say has been said. Education is included in the White Paper and I raised it with the Minister myself after the symposium. It is a policy in the White Paper, even if it is not necessarily a priority. The Minister is clued into the difficulties of what happens just before a soldier comes out and how difficult it is to get an education or a job.

Chairman

We have had a very good interaction today. I apologise for the fact that more members were not present, but it is on account of the time of year and the electoral cycle. We were anxious to meet the witnesses. I am a former serving member of the Defence Forces Reserve, having served for 23 years, so I have a certain grá for things military and an understanding of what the issues are. ONE and the UN vets provide colour parties for ceremonial occasions, which add to the gravitas of what happens in many areas. I thank them for that and for the work they do with former members.

This could be one of the last meetings of this committee because an election is coming down the tracks.

Another committee will be formed after the general election but none of us knows whether we will be members; that is dependent on the will of the people. That said, I would invite the witnesses to keep in touch. I am surprised that this is the first time that either organisation has been in the Oireachtas, given the work they are both doing. This is their Parliament and I would invite them to make contact with the chairman and clerk of the next committee and request an invitation to appear before it to make further representations because their work is so very important. If the witnesses make detailed submissions, the committee can formally bring them to the attention of the Minister and the Taoiseach. Some of the information they provided today can also be sent forward, with their permission.

I thank the witnesses for their attendance this morning and wish them, their families and the members of their organisations a very happy Christmas.

Sitting suspended at 11.10 a.m and resumed at 2.30 p.m.