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JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN’S RIGHTS debate -
Tuesday, 26 Nov 2002

Vol. 1 No. 1

Europol Convention: Ministerial Presentation.

I extend a very warm welcome to the Minister of State at the Departments of Health and Children, Justice, Equality and Law Reform and Education and Science, Deputy Brian Lenihan. This is the first occasion on which the Minister of State has been with us. You are very welcome and I look forward to your attending the committee many times in the future. I hope and trust that we will be able to work well together.

The text of the Danish proposal together with relevant briefing documentation and the text of the Minister of State's speech have been circulated to members. I invite the Minister of State to address the committee.

I thank you, Chairman, for your kind words of welcome. This is the first time a European Union proposal, falling within the responsibility of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, has been brought before an Oireachtas joint committee for scrutiny under the new provisions for the scrutiny of European matters. Technically, it falls outside the scope of the European Union (Scrutiny) Act, 2002, but it has been decided that the same procedures should apply to this measure.

In a sense, we are breaking new ground and there are no established practices, so it would be helpful if I made some comments on the process and I would very much welcome any comments or suggestions the committee would like to make on how such issues should be approached in the future.

At this stage it is important to note that the procedure upon which we are now embarking is a procedure of consultation and not of instruction from the Minister. Notwithstanding that, I have a substantial number of instructions to impart to the committee before consultation can begin.

Many of the decisions made at European level have significant implications for Irish citizens and a greater involvement of national parliaments will improve democratic accountability as well as making the activities of the European Union more accessible and relevant for ordinary citizens. I am a firm supporter of the view that national parliaments should be kept fully informed of developments at European Union level and should have an opportunity to provide a positive contribution to such developments.

In this instance we are dealing with a proposal relating to a convention which the Council of Ministers will be asked to approve at European Union level. We are dealing with a proposal relating to a convention which is already in existence. The joint committee is being invited to consider a proposal amending that convention by way of a protocol. This protocol will be considered by the Council of Ministers, who will be asked to approve it at European Union level. If the protocol is approved at European Union level it will then be recommended to the member states for adoption in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements. If the Council of Ministers accepts and adopts this protocol Ireland will implement it by legislation. There is no strict obligation on Ireland to implement the protocol and that is why there will be a recommendation from the Council to the member states to implement the protocol by way of legislation. This protocol will be drawn up under the third pillar of European Union activity, which relates to justice and home affairs matters. Unlike other EU instruments the final say in this matter will rest at national rather than EU level. Nevertheless, we took the view that it was desirable to have this process of consultation on the matter. In this case we are talking about legislation to amend the Europol Act 1997 before we can proceed to ratify this protocol.

While the Constitution reserves the sole power of determining foreign policy to the Government and while neither the courts nor the Oireachtas can regulate the negotiating position to be taken in any given instance, the importance of today's exercise is that there is an opportunity to brief the committee on the proposal and an opportunity for the committee to express its views on the subject before the text of the instrument is finalised. These views can then be taken into consideration in the context of the negotiations which are already under way. I remind members that there are 14 other member states involved and no guarantee can be given as to what views will finally be acceptable to the Council as a whole. If negotiations at EU level are successfully concluded, the legislation to implement the proposal will be brought back to both Houses, which may accept or reject it at that stage.

Turning now to the subject matter of the proposal, a decision at the European Council in Maastricht in December 1991 was taken to establish a European Police Office (Europol) to combat organised crime, especially in the area of drugs. As a preliminary step the Europol drugs unit was established in January 1994. The Europol Convention was agreed and signed in 1995. It was given the force of law in this State by the Europol Act 1997 and Europol became operational on 1 July 1999.

The primary purpose of Europol is to facilitate the exchange of information and intelligence and to carry out detailed analyses in order to assist the member states in preventing and combating international organised crime. It does not have any operational powers. Rather it is there to support national law enforcement authorities and to facilitate EU police co-operation.

While Europol has had successes and police co-operation at EU level has clearly been enhanced, there is a view that the original expectations for the organisation have not been fully fulfilled. There is a view that developments since 1995 and the experience gained in the operation of the convention have revealed the need for some amendments to the text of the convention. Various possible amendments to the convention have been raised and discussed since 1999. Two proposals on the more pressing issues have been progressed. One was to extend the mandate of Europol to all money laundering offences regardless of the predicate offence and the other, not yet been formally adopted by Council, relates to Europol's role in supporting joint investigation teams and their right to ask states to initiate an investigation. The Danish Presidency on 2 July 2002 published the initiative before us today, which is intended to address the other outstanding issues that might require an amendment to the existing convention.

There also have been discussions about converting the Europol Convention into a Council decision. Were that done, the obligations in relation to Europol would be embedded in Community law and become mandatory for us. The Europol Convention was drawn up prior to entry into force of the Amsterdam treaty and there is a view that the most appropriate legal basis for Europol would now be a Council decision. A Council decision instrument would be more flexible and changes could be implemented more quickly than with a convention. However, it would move responsibility for any further amendments to the instrument away from the member states to European Union. No agreement has been reached on the matter.

Unfortunately the text of the draft protocol is difficult to follow because of the nature of the proposal and because it includes a variety of technical and substantive changes. The wording of the final text is unlikely to correspond to the original proposal and therefore we should concentrate on the broad policy issues.

The most significant elements of the initiative relate to the objectives and tasks of Europol, the question of Europol dealing with national law enforcement agencies through the centralised national units or by direct contact, Europol and the European Parliament, co-operation with Eurojust, and Information system and analysis work files.

With regard to the objectives of Europol, Article 2 of the Europol Convention sets out the objectives of Europol and was drafted on the basis that Europol would initially limit itself to addressing international organised crime in the areas of trafficking in drugs, nuclear material, illegal immigrant smuggling, trade in human beings and stolen motor vehicles. These were to be priorities and the thinking was that its mandate could then be gradually extended to terrorism and the extensive list of offences in the Annex to the Convention.

In practice, a different approach was taken. It was agreed that organised crime groups switch quickly from one form of trafficking to another depending on profits. The same structures can be used for smuggling drugs, cigarettes, people or arms. Therefore, it does not make sense to have a restricted mandate for Europol. Europol should be able to continue to focus on a criminal group regardless of the nature of the criminal activities. As a result, the mandate of Europol has been extended to cover all the offences listed in Article 2 and the Annex.

Following on from this approach, the Danish Presidency has suggested that Europol should have a very open-ended mandate covering all forms of serious international crime. This could have significant implications for the future role of Europol.

I will summarise the views of the member states. I cannot attribute particular views to particular member states, but the following views have been expressed: a formal procedure for determining the priorities of Europol is required as not all offences should be given the same priority; Europol was set up to combat organised crime and its mandate should remain focused on international organised crime; and greater clarification is required regarding what constitutes serious international crime, perhaps a list of offences that could be updated by the Council in appropriate circumstances.

Article 3 sets out the tasks of Europol, and the Presidency has raised three possible amendments. A proposed amendment to Article 3.1(4) relates to clarifying the position as regards the support Europol can give to one member state as opposed to a group of states. Second, a proposed amendment to Article 3.3 relates to the role of Europol in the provision of technical equipment to member states. Third, a proposed new paragraph 4 is to be inserted into Article 3 highlighting the role of Europol as regards counterfeiting the euro.

In regard to the role of national units, the proposed amendments to Articles 4 and 9(4) have very significant implications for the role of the Europol national units. Under the existing convention, Europol interacts with the member states through specially designated national units. Every member state has a national unit with a designated head, and one or more members of that national unit are stationed in the Europol building in the Hague to liaise with Europol. In Ireland's case, the Europol national unit is situated in Garda headquarters and is headed by a Chief Superintendent. The Irish information flow to and from Europol is through that national unit.

The Presidency proposal raises the question of allowing other competent authorities - which, in effect, means any law enforcement agency - supply information to and seek information from Europol. The proposal would also allow Europol to seek information directly from law enforcement officers without going through the national units.

The view has been expressed that the national units are the key to the proper co-ordination and verification of information at a national level and that to allow the national unit to be bypassed will undermine one of the major successes of the existing arrangements. The national units ensure that forwarding information to Europol is in accordance with national law, that the information is of value and that it meets the requirements of Europol. It should also be kept in mind that, in many EU countries, there are a significant number of different police and law enforcement agencies and national co-ordination of intelligence can be quite difficult. I do not have to remind Members that in Great Britain there are many police forces in individual local authority areas. Equally, in many other member states of the EU, there are individual and specialised police forces for different tasks and functions.

While there are references to the European Parliament in the proposed amendment to Articles 24(6), 28(10) and 35(4), the substantive proposal in this area relates to the second paragraph of Article 34 and, in particular, to the appearance of the director of Europol before the European Parliament.

Europol is funded directly by the member states and is answerable to them through the board and the Council of Ministers. As Europol is not funded via the Community budget, the European Parliament does not have the same responsibilities towards the organisation as it has in respect of other Community institutions.

Under the existing convention, the European Parliament is consulted regarding relevant Council decisions and receives an annual report. The Danish Presidency is proposing that the existing arrangements be made more specific and, in particular, that provision be made for the appearance of the Presidency and the director of Europol before the Parliament.

There is a view that as the director is answerable only to the member states and not to the European Parliament and that he or she should only appear before the European Parliament in support of the Presidency representative and not on his or her own.

The Presidency proposes to amend Article 42 to insert a specific reference to Eurojust. Eurojust was established by a Council decision earlier this year - recorded in the Official Journal at L63/5 on 6 March 2002 - to stimulate and improve the co-ordination of criminal investigations and prosecutions within the European Union. It is, in a sense, a sister organisation to Europol and there will be particularly close links between the two organisations.

There are quite a number of technical amendments which relate to access and storage of data, information systems and analytic work files in Europol. I do not propose to go into them in any detail, but if any member of the committee has a specific question I will try to answer it. An independent joint supervisory body comprising national data protection experts was established to oversee Europol and that body has produced a paper on the proposed amendments. Its views and the views of the member states are being taken into consideration in the context of the negotiations under way in Brussels by those bodies charged by the Council of Ministers with the task of preparing a final text acceptable to all member states.

The Danish initiative has been discussed in some detail at working group level. Some progress has been made but it would be premature for me to give an indication of the likely outcome at this stage. The Presidency has also sought the views of the Europol Management Board and the European Parliament. The Danish Presidency is quite keen to progress its initiative and it may be that it will come before the Council of Justice and home affairs Ministers in December 2002. In this regard, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, has asked me to thank the committee for dealing with the matter so promptly.

Any views the committee may have on this proposal would be most welcome, as would any suggestions on how the work of the committee might be facilitated in the future when EU proposals are being scrutinised.

With regard to the director being answerable to the member states and the European Parliament, accountability is very important, as we have seen in Ireland with regard to the police. The director should be answerable to the European parliament, which is elected by the people.

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Lenihan, to our meeting. It is new for us to discuss something like this in a committee. It has to be welcomed that there is more openness, debate and discussion of European affairs. As politicians, we all have had a very severe reminder from the public that it is important to engage in debate and to discuss decisions to be taken at European level that will affect their lives.

On a technical issue, there is a background briefing note on Europol for the committee. At the bottom of the page I think there is a typographical error. Perhaps the text might be amended.

It is a typographical error.

The Minister's statement mentions an annual report prepared by Europol. As the body has been in existence since 1999, has an annual report been prepared and, if so, has it been circulated? It would indicate the work in which it is involved and the success it has had.

On a point of order, it is intended that Deputies will be called in sequence with the Minister of State then replying.

While I welcome co-operation between police forces, I am concerned that Europol can contact members and officers within forces for information and not channel it through the local Europol office, which in the case of Ireland would be located at Garda headquarters. That arrangement leaves itself open to misinterpretation on what might be required and the kind of information, or misinformation, that may be given. Surely it is important that information on international crime should be channelled in a direct way and that the relevant national office should be aware of, and responsible for, the information. Otherwise, it might happen that no record is maintained leading to the possibility that information may be waylaid. It is important to ensure a streamlined procedure.

There is significant debate in the media on the Lindsay tribunal with the possibility that some international pharmaceutical companies may be asked to answer to the Irish authorities on contaminated blood products. Is it possible that these companies could be asked to provide information in their country of origin through Europol, which could then be transmitted to Ireland, or could that be dealt with in a different manner?

I am glad to see the committee is breaking ground in that it is the first time a proposal on European Union legislation is being submitted to an Oireachtas committee. It is an illustration of the value of the European Union (Scrutiny) Act, 2002. Doubtless this will become the norm for the future.

I am concerned that reporting mechanisms might interfere with subsidiarity. It is also important that the relevant national unit, in this instance the Garda Síochána, would be the first and only port of call. As it is, the proposal would allow Europol to seek information directly from law enforcement officers without going through the national units. That would be unacceptable. An acceptable structure must be in place, otherwise the proposed procedure could be open to abuse. Last week the committee considered the question of co-operation between the Police Service of Northern Ireland and the Garda Síochána, including the secondment of officers between both forces and jurisdictions. However, the mechanism proposed in this instance was not mentioned and I would prefer if we did not proceed in that direction.

The Danish Presidency wishes to broaden the crimes examined by Europol to all serious international crimes. This is not specified. For example, what creates an international crime? If we agree to this we must ensure that the Garda Síochána is the relevant point of contact here, not individual offices. Nor should we accept other procedures that may operate on an ad hoc basis or otherwise.

It would be useful if the committee had sight of annual reports to enable us consider the type of work being done and its impact on Ireland. We contribute €600,000 to the body and we need to know in what way other states can be of assistance to us. Given that we are an island country, we are prone to international money laundering and drug dealing. There are launching points to this country from the European mainland and elsewhere. It is much more difficult and expensive for Ireland to operate an international policing mechanism that is beneficial to both ourselves and the European Union. Dealers from third countries, such as Colombia and Morocco, could use Ireland as a channel for their dealings with the European mainland.

I broadly welcome the proposals by the Danish Presidency. As a small island on the periphery of Europe sharing of information by the Garda Síochána, a small police force by comparison with those in some of our neighbouring countries, has been a major success. This is especially the case in such areas as trafficking of human beings, especially of children for sexual exploitation, and illegal immigrants, which has resulted in the loss of many lives because of the involvement of unscrupulous people from east Europe and elsewhere who make large profits. That has been a major success story as far we are concerned. We have intercepted huge quantities of drugs in the past seven or eight years. That is thanks to the co-operation of Interpol and exchange of information, and it should be recognised.

I accept there is probably a need to broaden our involvement with Interpol in other areas, including the question of tracking convicted paedophiles from one state to another. For years, known international criminals sought refuge in remote areas here and went about their business undetected. The smuggling of drugs, cigarettes and arms in particular is now acute because the borders in Europe have been opened. We are basically a large group of states.

On the question of accountability, it is important to ensure that the aegis of the State, particularly our legal system, our statute law and the provision for the protection of constitutional rights, will supersede any interference from the mechanism by which Europol will share information and work in co-operation with our Garda. It is important that there would be accountability on the part of the Garda in terms of the provisions Interpol are putting in place which may affect this State and its citizens.

The Eurojust proposal is an interesting one. Perhaps the Minister might expand on the areas where this proposal might be developed so that we can, with other European countries, fast-track the prosecution of international crimes. Ireland and Europe are becoming very small internationally and the work and co-operation involved in the prevention and elimination of crime, whether it be with Interpol, the CIA or another international agency, is most welcome. Many positive views can be put forward with regard to the expansion of the role of Interpol. I welcome the suggestions being made. We should tease them out and examine the positive, rather than the negative, features that can come about.

I welcome the Minister on his first visit to our committee. As a new Deputy, I regard these early meetings as sessions of enlightenment with regard to the various proposals that come before us, and this proposal is most welcome. As international crime becomes more advanced and organised, our police forces, both national and international, must also become more organised and advanced in their methods of operation.

The proposal before us has to be welcomed because it will make information available to our police forces and in terms of the work of police forces, information is power. It is a welcome development that such information will pass among all the member states. Most important, I welcome the aspect that our Constitution will be upheld at all times and that the result of the negotiations of the 14 other member states will come before both Houses for final ratification or rejection. This is a positive step forward which will result in a greater strengthening of police powers, and I look forward to examining it in greater detail in the future.

I join the other members in welcoming the Minister to the committee. I will make some brief points on this proposal, which I welcome. Page 3 of the documentation refers to the background to this initiative and states that a Council decision instrument would be more flexible and changes could be implemented more quickly than with the convention. It further states that it would move responsibility for any further amendments to the instrument away from the national level to European level and no agreement has been reached on the matter. Should it be of concern to us that any future amendments would not come before these Houses? That may not be appropriate and we should be involved in any future amendments.

I have strong views, as have other members, about the fact that the national units in Ireland should always be in control and in full discussion with Europol. We should not accept a reduction of the power of our national units.

I, too, thank the Minister for his presentation. I will not repeat the points that have been made although Deputy Costello has mentioned most of those I wanted to raise.

Page 4 of the documentation states that Europol should be able to continue to focus on a criminal group regardless of the nature of the criminal activities. I would be concerned about that aspect, particularly in relation to all the data Europol would collect. The proposal appears to be a little broad and I would have concerns about that aspect of it.

I also want to be associated with the welcome remarks to the Minister. I am particularly interested in the whole area of Europol, the connection with organised crime and the drugs issue. It is an essential part of any strategy to combat the drugs crisis within the EU and in our own country. As somebody who has worked in the inner city for 20 years, I have seen the devastation misuse of drugs can cause in poor and disadvantaged communities. I remember on one occasion attending three funerals in ten days of past pupils of mine. We have to remind ourselves that this crisis still exists in many communities. We have 15,000 addicts in the city of Dublin so if Europol can assist on these issues, it is a very positive development.

Europol's exchange of information will be essential to good quality community policing. I have some reservations, however, about any politicisation of the police. The police have to work with the community and keep out of politics, and we must ensure that politicians keep out of policing. I say that with particular reference to the section dealing with terrorism. We all oppose violence but there appears to be an attitude within the EU which concerns me. In Chechnya recently, 20,000 innocent civilians were killed but we did not hear a squeak out of the EU on that issue. When we talk about policing and terrorism, we must get the balance right and ensure that we are fair and impartial. We should not turn our backs on poor people in Chechnya just because they have been assaulted, raped and massacred by an ally of the EU.

The section dealing with illegal immigrants is another area about which I have concerns. I do not want to see an over the top reaction on the question of hassling illegal immigrants. I want people to be treated as human beings. I worked in a school where 15% of our pupils were non-nationals, many of whom came here to escape famine and economic disadvantage. They made a massive contribution to this country and it is important that we remind ourselves of that.

I also have major concerns also about the approach being adopted by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to deportation orders for Kosovan children in Castleknock and Nigerian children in Rathmines. That is not the way to go and I do not want to see Europol go in that direction.

I am delighted the Europol officials do not have police powers. I welcome that because the integrity of policing and the integrity of the State are essential. It is essential that the Garda Síochána retain its own policing powers.

I see Europol will cost €55 million in 2003 and will have 300 employees. Does the Minister of State feel that Europol, with that budget and only 300 employees, will be effective in combating organised crime and passing on information?

Policing must have the support and respect of the public. The respect of the public must be earned and politicians must keep out of policing.

I concur with the comments of my colleagues on the report. Any measure to counteract international crime, particularly in the area of drugs, is to be welcomed. Some of our own alleged drug barons have a habit of fleeing to Europe when the pressure is on them here. Will these new measures be of any assistance in bringing them back to face justice here?

Europol is to have between 260 and 300 employees. We have two members on the management board of Europol but will there be any other Irish participation among the 300 employees?

These are simple questions. I welcome this measure.

A large number of questions have been raised and comments made, some of which may refer to matters outside the Europol remit. I ask the Minister of State to address those questions which refer to Europol, at least.

I will be delighted to. I hope I can deal with most of the questions that have arisen. If there are further questions I will be quite happy to take them, but I hope they arise by way of clarification.

Chairman, you mentioned the importance of accountability and the force being accountable to the European Parliament, which is the elected organ in the European Union. While that is important and we are not opposed to it in any way - it is the position of the Minister that Ireland is not opposed to it - it is important that the director would be accompanied by a representative of the Presidency because the director is in a technical position, just as the Commissioner would be in a technical position in the context of the present committee.

Deputy Paul McGrath raised the question of the report. The report has not been laid before the Houses and it should be. Officials of my Department have undertaken that it will be, as well as being circulated to the members of this committee immediately. There have been a number of reports to date and we will ensure that they will be circulated to members. They will give all of us a better understanding of the work Europol is doing.

Deputy McGrath and many members expressed a concern about the question of giving power to Europol to make contact with individual officers within the police forces, such as the Garda Síochána, and of making the sharing of information more flexible between different police forces. I indicated in my opening statement that there was a difficulty in some member states, given the multiplicity of police forces. That difficulty does not exist for us. The Minister shares members' concerns on this subject and he is anxious to maintain the current position, where Ireland is concerned, where there is one accountable police officer. The Garda Síochána is a unified force and it is important, not just from the point of view of the individual citizen who may be concerned about sharing information but from the general point of view of accountability and responsibility, that there is a designated person responsible for the operation of this procedure and that there is clarity in respect of that. The Minister shares members' concern regarding this matter and will press for appropriate provisions to be included in the protocol.

Will Europol have direct access to records held on computer by the Garda, or must they go through Garda headquarters and request the information from the Garda?

There is no direct electronic access at present. The access is to the national officer. That is our position and we want to maintain that position, as I understand it. The Minister wants the protocol to reflect that practice. However, we accept that it may be necessary to provide in the protocol for other member states where it would be appropriate to have more than one national officer. We are prepared to accommodate that in the convention. If we amend this convention by way of protocol it will have to return to Ireland by way of separate legislation. Our position is that the convention must be open enough to allow us maintain a position of having one national designated officer. If we had some other law enforcement agency we might leave the option open there but that would be the limit on it.

Deputy Paul McGrath also referred to the Lindsay tribunal. That relates to a civil matter whereas we are dealing with organised crime here.

Deputy Costello also raised the subject of the concern relating to subsidiarity. I have outlined the Minister's position on this matter. He is concerned to ensure that there is a modification of the draft protocol that will make clear that in the case of states such as Ireland there is one designated person. It would be a designated national unit.

Deputy Costello also queried the broader definition of crime contained in the protocol. The Minister is concerned about the need for far greater clarity and specificity in any definition of crime that emerges in the protocol. We do not object to the extension of the definition. We see the merit of the argument that a more extensive definition may be needed because it is hard to draw boundaries between different forms of criminal activity on the international plane. However, if we are casting the protocol into legal stone it is important that it be done precisely. The Minister certainly shares that concern.

Deputy Costello drew attention to the fact that Ireland was an entrepôt for drugs and money laundering. The operations of Europol will be useful for a jurisdiction such as ours. The Minister would agree with that.

Deputy O'Donovan raised the question of constitutional protection and whether the operations of Europol would be subject to constitutional and statutory protection in this jurisdiction. It was implicit in what I said in my opening statement that the constitutional protection survives in relation to this type of matter. This is not like Community legislation adopted on foot of a directive or Council regulation, where on constitutional grounds the matter is removed from the scrutiny of the courts. The legislation we will enact if we accept the protocol will be subject to constitutional review and the operation of Europol in Ireland will be fully subject to domestic statutory and constitutional provisions. There is no doubt on any of that. I assume that is why there was some doubt about whether the matter should be brought before the committee in the first place. Given that it has been discussed on a multilateral basis in the EU it is appropriate that it be brought before the committee. If we enact legislation on foot of this protocol there will be no special protection for it under the Constitution. It will be like any other Act of the Oireachtas.

Deputy O'Donovan raised the question of whether Europol could be made more effective in dealing with organised crime, what were our objectives and where we saw the future strategy of Europol. He raised the question of whether our criminal justice procedures and our definitions of offences were adequate to combat the modern phenomenon of international crime. Deputy O'Donovan is raising very wide questions. Our objective and strategy for Europol is that it be effective in dealing with organised crime. The wider questions of whether there should be a more European definition of crime and European procedures in relation to crime are being discussed in other contexts. These questions raise a profound difficulty for us and for our Minister in that our system of criminal protection, procedure and definition is founded on common law. The systems of many member states are founded on a different legal tradition and it is difficult to marry the intellectual presuppositions of the two traditions into a unified approach. Even in a full federation, such as the US, individual states maintain a considerable autonomy in terms of criminal law definition, enforcement and penalties. The US is a jurisdiction where 49 of the 50 states in the union have common law assumptions. Therefore, one can imagine how much more difficult it is in a European context to harmonise an area of this type.

The common law system as we have developed it has provided protection for individual freedoms as well as effective punishment for offences. It is very important that the balance we have struck be protected and respected. The Minister is concerned in terms of the wider issue raised by Deputy O'Donovan. In respect of the narrow issue of how we perceive the strategy for Europol, we want it to be more effective in dealing with organised crime.

Deputy Hoctor stressed the importance of sharing information and welcomed the fact that the Constitution would be upheld and that the final ratification rested with us. Senator Terry also welcomed the proposal and had a concern that a future matter might not come before the House. We are not going down that route in respect of this protocol. In effect, we have decided not to proceed by way of Council decision. There was no consensus among the member states to do that so the scenario the Senator envisaged will not happen. In other words, we are still at the stage of national member state control in this area.

When I explained that in my opening speech, I was really saying that it was considered whether we could move to that type of operation, but there was no support for it among the member states. We are not doing that and the Senator can be reassured that anything will come back before the House in relation to this matter. Also, she can be assured that this protocol cannot be amended without a fresh protocol - which would have to come before this committee by way of consultation now that we have established the precedent today - and cannot be amended without legislation.

Senator Terry also stressed that national units should be in control. That is an issue all the Members have raised and the Minister is very concerned that there be clear lines of responsibility in respect of this matter. Senator Tuffy also raised the question of the very wide definition of crime. A point that recurs in the discussion is that there has to be clarity in the definition of the crime.

Deputy Paul McGrath welcomed Europol as a positive contribution in the context of the devastation caused by the drug supply industry and stressed the importance of the exchange of information regarding the politicisation of the police and the need for politicians to keep out of policing. I am not sure there is any implication in this protocol in relation to the matter. We are making the director accountable to the Parliament and the police are subject to politicians on matters of policy, but operational matters must be left to the officers concerned. Certainly, that should always be upheld.

In the context of terrorism, Deputy Paul McGrath raised a fair point. We have to provide greater clarity in the definition of what constitutes serious international crime. Clearly, particular acts of terrorism fall within that definition - bombings, incidents involving aircraft, the movement of explosive material from one jurisdiction to another - but there has to be precision as to what precise acts are involved.

The issue of deportation does not arise under this protocol. I note the Deputy's comments in this respect. With regard to the budget and the provision for this organisation, the work on the ground is done at the national level so the international organisation, in a sense, is relying on the national organisations to do this work. I am informed that my officers are content with the present arrangement with regard to the provision for this organisation.

Deputy McGinley raised the question of international crime and how effective Interpol would be. He also raised the question of Irish participation. We do not keep records of how many Irish participants are in the institution. I am advised that a number have worked therein and we have two liaison officers in it at present.

They are well paid. Can the Minister of State do his sums?

I am glad the Deputy shared that information with me.

Consider that there is €55 million for 300 employees. I know that offices have to be accounted for, but it amounts to about €180,000 per person. One would get a great deal of office space for that, so they must be fairly well paid.

The Minister will have a record of the contributions today, which will be of great assistance to him in dealing with the issues before the Council.

Is there any other brief matter?

I see that the national unit is represented by the Superintendent, albeit the Chief Superintendent, but that the member on the board is the Assistant Commissioner, so the board member is a higher officer in terms of promotion than the one with whom contact is made in the national unit.

Perhaps the Minister of State will indicate the level of the official from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Is there any intention of establishing a branch here considering our unique needs in this matter?

The board is a collective management institution, so we are represented at a relatively high level of the Garda structure because it is a collective entity managing the entire institution. The Chief Superintendent is the Irish liaison officer. We do not have any difficulty with that because it would not be appropriate for an individual member of the board to transmit an instruction to the Chief Superintendent because his relationship is with the director of Europol. The work is at executive level there.

The Department official is the principal officer. With regard to the headquarters, we would be delighted to host Europol here in Ireland, but the headquarters are located in the Hague, that great centre of international judicial cynosure.

Or Castleknock. I thank the Minister of State and his official for attending. We will meet him again after the conclusion of the Order of Business. Is it agreed that the committee will report to the Houses on its discussion of the scrutinised document today, enclosing all the texts of the relevant documentation? Agreed.

A formal communication will now be sent to the Sub-Committee on EU Scrutiny of the Joint Committee on European Affairs to the effect that the joint committee has completed its consideration of the day's proposal and that it has no further comments for the moment.

The joint committee went into private session at 3.27 p.m. and recommenced in public session at 3.40 p.m.

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