JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN’S RIGHTS debate -
Tuesday, 10 Dec 2002

Vol. 1 No. 2

Equality of Opportunity for Older People: Presentations.

Chairman

We have a quorum. I extend a warm welcome to all the organisations that are attending today. The purpose of the meeting is threefold: to discuss particular concerns of each of the organisations with regard to the promotion of equality of opportunity for older people, the best approach to tackling the problems of discrimination and ageism attitudes and models of best practice in ensuring the protection of the rights of older people and acknowledging their position in Irish society. This is the first occasion since the convening of the new Dáil on which we have met representatives of organisations working on behalf of senior citizens to hear their views.

I draw the attention of our guests to the fact that while members of this committee have absolute privilege, that privilege does not apply to people appearing before the committee. Our visitors may wish to consider how careful they should be in their comments. The intention is that each of the groups will give a short presentation, following which Members, if they so wish, will make some comments and ask pertinent questions. As we are somewhat restricted in terms of space, we will endeavour to accommodate two members from each organisation to facilitate better interaction with the committee. Our time schedule is also constrained by a possible vote on the Order of Business in the Dáil just after 4 p.m. Accordingly, I ask speakers to be as concise as possible in their comments.

I welcome Bob Carroll, chief executive officer of the National Council on Ageing and Older People and I invite him to introduce those accompanying him.

Mr. Bob Carroll

I am accompanied by Dr. Davida de la Harpe, who is a member of the council, and Ms Sinéad Quill, research officer with the council.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Carroll and ask him to proceed with the presentation.

Mr. Carroll

The National Council on Ageing and Older People thanks the Oireachtas joint committee for inviting us to attend this meeting. The council contributed actively to the preparation of the Equality Authority report, Implementing Equality for Older People, and we are currently part of the National Economic and Social Forum project team on implementing equality for older people. We welcome all opportunities to progress the promotion of equality for older people. The information packs that have been circulated provide a brief explanation and guide to the council.

The primary function of the council is to develop a comprehensive understanding of ageing and older people in Ireland with a view to providing the best possible advice to the Minister for Health and Children, the Minister of State with responsibility for services for older people at the Department of Health and Children, other Ministers and all concerned with the welfare of older people in Ireland. In conjunction with Government Departments, health service agencies and other statutory and voluntary bodies, the council assists in the development of national and regional policies and strategies designed to produce health gain and social gain for older people.

The council is also required to promote the health, welfare and autonomy of older people and a better understanding of ageing and older people in Ireland. It bases all of its advice on the findings from research. That is a critical orientation of the council. It has, therefore, undertaken or commissioned research on a wide range of areas relevant to the welfare of older people, as can be seen from the list of 70 publications in the catalogue also included in the packs circulated to members. I draw their attention to those publications which relate to the problem of ageism and promoting equality for older people.

The council has long been concerned with attitudes to ageing and older people, negative stereotyping and the resultant direct and indirect discrimination experienced by older people. One of the very first studies it undertook was on the attitudes of young people to ageing and the elderly. In 1993 the council published manuals for primary and second level schools to assist in increasing solidarity between the youngest and the oldest generations. It also published a teachers' manual and CD ROM based programme for primary school children to assist in developing positive attitudes to ageing and older people at the age when attitudes are actually formed.

Believing in the need to encourage more positive public attitudes to life after the age of 65 and the process of ageing, the council, in October 1988, organised the first national day on ageing, with the theme "Age and Opportunity". This led to the establishment of Age and Opportunity, one of the organisations represented at this meeting, which has been successfully and effectively promoting positive attitudes to ageing and the participation of older people in society.

Ireland has an ageing population. Projections prepared for the council indicate that the population aged 65 and over would grow by more than 100,000 in the period 1996 to 2011. We are now in the middle of that period in which the population aged over 80 will also increase by two thirds and those aged 70 living alone will increase by nearly 50%. The UN predicts that the over 60s will outnumber the under 15s in Ireland by 2025. Our society must seek to mainstream ageing in all policy fields in keeping with demographic change and the need to achieve a society for all ages.

Ms Sinéad Quill will continue the presentation at this point.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Carroll.

Ms Sinéad Quill

I will outline some of the council's concerns with regard to equality for older people. In respect of legal status and general upper age limits, a rights based approach to the allocation of services for older people is severely lacking. The rights of older people are not adequately enshrined in legislation, thereby facilitating the presence of discrimination. For example, upper age limits in employment legislation have introduced a form of institutionalised discrimination against older people who wish to continue working past the age of 65.

With regard to policy-making, research shows evidence of age capping. Age related restrictions on access to health care are increasingly justified on the grounds that there is no evidence that such interventions are effective in the case of people of 65 or over. That is a consequence of decisions to exclude people of 65 years and over from research studies. Policy will, therefore, be informed by data which is essentially ageist. Older people are not represented in the social partnership process in their own right.

Recent council research on older people's preferences for employment in retirement has demonstrated that 50% of older people who are involved in home duties and wish to become engaged in some form of paid employment, believed they were not employed because employers preferred younger workers. The upper age limits in employment legislation imply that older people will not be protected against discrimination in the workplace if they wish to work after age 65. The council's recent research also indicates that older people have a preference for gradual and flexible retirement, but current employment practices, such as mandatory and statutory retirement and pension arrangements, militate against these preferences.

In addition, people aged 65 cannot avail of the retirement pension unless they cease to be in insurable employment. However, if they are eligible for the contributory old age pension, there are no social welfare restrictions on supplementing their incomes by engaging in further employment at age 66. This has implications for some older people fulfilling their work preferences in retirement.

With regard to income, the current level of social welfare payments is equivalent to approximately 31% of gross average industrial earnings and this is considered low by international standards. A recent council report also showed that over one quarter of elderly households fell under the 50% relative income poverty line and that half fell below the 60% relative income poverty line in 1998. Older women living on their own, particularly in rural areas, are at an increased risk of income deprivation.

With regard to health and community services, the highest percentage of negative experiences within the health service reported during the preparation of the national health strategy related to accident and emergency services, followed by services for older people. Poor attitudes to older people in acute in-patient services were mentioned repeatedly and the following comment was typical: "The elderly are treated as though they should be grateful for any treatment given to them even when this undermines their dignity and privacy." At times the elderly are treated like children or as though they are intellectually impaired. For example, treatment test results-diagnoses etc. are not given to them with the result that they are in a state of fear as to what is actually wrong with them and what will happen to them. In my experience, only some health professionals will actually talk to the elderly.

The organisation and delivery of health and social care services create barriers that lead to marginalisation, discrimination and dependence. They include lack of entitlement and inaccessibility to services.

With regard to entitlement to services, in 1988 the document, The Years Ahead, first enunciated the principle of enabling older people to remain in their homes for as long as possible or practicable. The extent to which this policy aim is achievable depends on the availability of a system of effective home and community based support services that assist older people to carry out activities of daily living. However, the provision of these services is discretionary. This means that health boards are not obliged to provide them and older people have no right to expect them. The council has recommended in numerous reports that home and community services such as home help, respite care inside and outside the home, meals on wheels, community and ancillary paramedical services, especially chiropody, social work services for older people and day services should be designated as core services in order that older people are entitled to them as of right.

With regard to access to services, older people's ability to access services is an obvious measure of social inclusiveness in the health and social services system. Older people have uneven access to services. Some barriers they encounter in accessing services are: the discretionary allocation of services which results in inconsistencies in the allocation of services to people with the same level of need and the stigmatisation of services because of lack of universal entitlement to services.

There is low coverage of services. We are starting from a very low base. There are gaps in the availability of many services, including public health nursing, dementia services, day care, respite beds, night sitting services and home helps to mention a few. There are variations in social care services and service provisions within and between health boards. People living in isolated areas are often the most disadvantaged but even urban dwellers suffer from unequal treatment across health boards areas. In addition, lack of access to an adequate transport service remains one of the greatest inequities experienced by older people and prevents them from getting the services they need to maintain the independence to engage in social activity.

Lack of information on services is another barrier to accessing services which could enhance functioning and promote social inclusion. The quantity and quality of information on health and social services are poor relative to, for example, social welfare services. The various schemes for housing maintenance and repair are of particular relevance to older people and fit well into an overall emphasis on community care. However, there is no statutory basis for any schemes. Therefore, entitlement is not clear.

With regard to lifelong learning, though people aged 50 years and over have the same rights of access to formal second and third level education, there are hidden barriers to participation which include: lower levels of educational attainment and lower levels of literacy; unsuitable teaching environments, and an over-reliance on qualifications rather than skills gained from experience.

Dr. Davida De La Harpe

My presentation is included in packs that members have received and from which they may get more detail.

Chairman

It would be appreciated if you could encapsulate the details.

Dr. De La Harpe

There are certain matters that we believe could be addressed immediately and could make a difference with regard to some of the areas highlighted by Ms Quill. In particular, on legal status, we recommend that upper age limits be removed from legislation such as the Employment Equality Act, 1998, and the Redundancy Payments Act, 1979. As a general principle, we believe upper age limits should not apply unless there is a particular objective justification. Any such legislative changes should be introduced by making changes in mainstream legislation, not in a single statute dealing specifically with older people.

With regard to policy making, older people should be represented in their own right in the partnership process and all research should be age-proofed in order that upper age limits are eliminated. The council has recommended that older people should be encouraged, enabled and have the right to remain in the workforce during both good and bad economic times. Again, the removal of upper age limits in employment legislation is relevant in this respect.

There should be a dual strategy for tackling age discrimination whereby we inform older people of their rights as workers while employers are made aware of their legal obligations. Pensions and retirement schemes need to be made more flexible in order that there is movement across the boundary between employment and retirement. On grounds of equity a person in receipt of the retirement pension should not be penalised if he or she wants to engage in some form of employment. There are no such restrictions on receiving contributory old age pension.

We have already recommended in other publications that social welfare pensions should be increased to at least 34% of gross average industrial earnings and that the homemaker's scheme should be extended to all older women, in particular those obliged to leave the workforce on marriage. In this way, as many women as possible could qualify for pension entitlements in their own right.

Eligibility for health and social services should be clearly defined and there should be a statutory framework underpinning access to health and social care services within a stated timeframe. We are looking for age awareness rather than ageism and for services provided in the community to be accorded equal status to those provided in acute settings. There should be adequate funding provided for appropriate and adequate services.

It is important that lifelong learning is supported. Research undertaken by the council has shown that older people want to be taught by older people and with older people, and that enhancing literacy should be a priority.

There are several areas we consider important in the broader context. There should be enhanced and improved consultation with older people. While the council does this, it should be better and more clearly supported. Legislation is the key to all of this. In general, the older population is not homogenous, rather it is made up of individuals. This must be recognised in the context of any changes to be made. Members have been given council reports which back up all of the recommendations.

Chairman

I thank the delegation for its comprehensive presentation which outlined the position in a clear manner. I am sure that there are questions, but we will bank contributions and take questions and comments from members afterwards.

I welcome representatives of Age Action Ireland Limited. I invite Mr. Robin Webster, chief executive officer of Age Action Ireland, to introduce his colleagues.

Mr. Robin Webster

I am joined by Ms Lorraine Dorgan, deputy chief executive, Dr. David Stratton, head of policy and research, and Mr. Paul Murray, head of information and publishing.

Chairman

I ask Mr. Webster to address the committee for approximately ten minutes. I know that is not very long, but we do not have much time.

Mr. Webster

I will make a brief contribution and I hope my colleagues will contribute to the discussion later in the meeting.

Chairman

That is excellent.

Mr. Webster

I thank the committee for its invitation. I am particularly glad that ageing and older people have been selected as the committee's first subject of debate and I commend the committee for its choice of priority. We have brought some documentation to outline the work of Age Action Ireland and to detail its activities, but I will concentrate on our main concerns.

We have organised a national age discrimination day in each of the last five years. One of the activities we have undertaken as part of that event, aimed at combating age discrimination and promoting equality, is a national phone-in. I will give an example of the matters we are addressing in co-operation with our colleagues on the national council and other similar organisations. During last year's national age discrimination day, a man said that he was unable to get work because of his age. The fact that employment is one of the major areas where discrimination can be found has been well documented. The man, who has many qualifications, said that employers would not give him a job as they considered his age, 85, to be more important than his abilities. A man of 85 years has the right to work and should be encouraged to work if that is what he wants to do.

Rather than talking about older people as an homogenous group, which is one of the real problems we face, we should remember that one million Irish people are over the age of 50, almost 500,000 people are over 65 and 100,000 people are over 80. These discrete groups should be treated differently, rather than being considered to have the same needs and circumstances. One of the interesting things we have tried to change is society's emphasis on people over 65, who are considered old. Part of the problem in developing services is that while chronological age is used as a barrier, it is also seen as a guide.

Age Action Ireland speaks of older people as those over the age of 40 or 50. If we are talking about ageing, we should take a lifespan view and look at ageing across people's lives. We are encouraged to think about older people as a separate group, but we want policies that integrate rather than segregate older people. In light of increasing life expectancy levels, it does not make sense to plan and develop health and social services for older people on the basis of those over 65. We need to examine other ways of looking at older people.

The document I have given to the committee contains four main points. Like most other organisations, Age Action Ireland recommends strongly that Departments should implement the recommendations of the Implementing Equality for Older People report. Members received copies of this important report earlier in the year. We should remove those examples of age discrimination that are to be found in legislation and official programmes. It is an outrage that workers aged 66 and over do not have the protection of equality and other employment legislation and the sooner that comes to an end the better.

We need to combat age discrimination, which is widespread, rampant and comes in all sorts of forms. The leading Department responsible for older people is called the Department of Health and Children, which sends a negative signal. We need to think carefully about how we approach and present policies to older people. Discrimination should be combated, not only on grounds of age, but on the eight other grounds listed in equality legislation.

Chronological age is often the least important aspect of a person's life, as gender, race, ethnicity, location and, certainly, disability, can be far more influential factors in determining whether or not a person enjoys a good quality of life. Chronological age can be used as an easy way of dividing people, rather than integrating them. It is a critically important that we challenge this.

As part of one of our current programmes, funded by the EU under the action programme, we work with other groups to look at age, gender, ethnicity and sexual orientation. We find it difficult to identify and make contact with older gay men who may need our services. We are determined to do so, although we are not yet sure how this can be done. It should be remembered that they were seen as criminals until less than ten years ago. We need to bear in mind the many aspects of older people's personalities and to examine ways in which we can challenge the various forms of discrimination. It is also important that we start to promote equality. The notion of uniformity, rather than equality, has meant that there has been a less than positive response to some of the Equality Authority's work, which we strongly support.

As a society, we should promote equality of access, as well as equality of opportunity, so that older people can enjoy the quality of life that most of us take for granted. We should not forget that most of the 25% of older people who require assistance to retain their independent lifestyles are supported by family carers, at least one third of whom are older people themselves. Older people provide services as well as receiving them. When we think about developing services for older people, particularly with the emphasis on community care mentioned by the speakers from the national council earlier, we need to think about informal carers, including older people. We should help all carers, including older carers. Government policy should be to create a society of all ages that includes older people and provides them with rights to access services and income. Older people will enjoy the same rights and benefits as those in other age groups when everybody maintains provision.

Chairman

Ms Catherine Rose from the Age and Opportunity group is very welcome.

Ms Catherine Rose

With me are John Kincaid, the chairman of the board, Mamo McDonald, board member and honorary president, and Anne Leahy, our public affairs co-ordinator.

I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to address the committee. As Bob Carroll pointed out, our organisation is a creature of the national council and was set up over ten years ago after research was carried out by the council into quality of life for older people. Our two main objectives are to challenge negative attitudes to ageing and promote participation by older people. Those objectives are firmly grounded in the United Nations principles with regard to older people which we provide to the committee in our documentation. Those principles include promotion of independence, participation, care, self-fulfilment and dignity.

One strand of our work is the creation of public awareness of ageism and age discrimination and we have worked closely with the Equality Authority since its inception. We are pleased with the equality legislation and would like to join colleagues in urging the committee to adopt the recommendations of the Equality Authority report.

We have been making two quite different practical interventions to improve the rate of participation by older people in all areas of life. One of the interventions is in the area of sports and physical activity and the other is in the area of arts and creative activity. The Go for Life project relates to sport and physical activities and the Bealtaine project to the arts and creativity.

We tend to accept the ageism stereotype that a sedentary older age is what is good for us when, in fact, the absolute reverse is true. One of the most significant interventions for physical, emotional and mental well-being is engagement as we age in physical activity. We are glad to say that the Irish Sports Council took up the challenge for us all a few years ago when prompted by lobbying by the Irish Senior Citizens Parliament. We are pleased that it is funding this project to the tune of about €600,000 and we are gratified by the level of its engagement in the programme. The council is not simply handing out money, which is important and valuable as a resource; its interest in the project and its promotion is also significant. Of the funding provided, 50% is disbursed through grants to local older people's groups and 50% is spent on training, which is done in collaboration with the health boards.

The arts creativity programme is largely concerned with a month long festival in May which celebrates the creativity of older people. It is a somewhat sweeping statement to say that older people have less access to the arts and education, but with the current generation of older people that is largely true. It is also the case, to a large extent, that the providers of arts and education services do not see the need to include older people. This is not discrimination, but it is a lack of awareness of the way the service needs to be provided.

In collaboration with the Irish Museum of Modern Art and the Abbey Theatre, we have worked closely with older people to establish a meaningful engagement with the arts. I refer here to participation rather than simply viewing art or listening to music, for example. We are not finding fault with those activities, but in this case we are interested in real and meaningful engagement. We have found from such engagement that the arts have a tremendous potential to transform us as we age. To date, this arts programme has not received the level of Government support it would have if there was greater knowledge of its benefits. We urge the committee to think in terms of promoting a long-term strategic approach to the involvement of older people in the arts and creativity.

The subject allows me to pass to my colleague, John Kincaid, with regard to a particular local project. John works with the Midland Health Board in the community care area and has been very creative in that work.

Mr. John Kincaid

As Catherine says, I wish to speak to the committee about the arts in care project from a local perspective. Each county has a strategy for economic, social and cultural development. The strategy in County Offaly, where I live, sets out as its vision that all people will enjoy equal opportunity and a good quality of life, looking forward with confidence to the future while cherishing the past. Against that background, we examined the matter of an arts in care project in the midlands.

In 1998 Age and Opportunity won a Better Ireland award of €5,000 for bringing arts to older people through the Bealtaine programme. The award enabled Age and Opportunity to develop a way to cater to the special needs of older people in residential care. The resulting arts in care programme commenced in 2000 as a pilot partnership project led by Age and Opportunity and involving the Midland Health Board and the Laois arts office.

In the past, residential care centres for older people were very often seen as institutions whose primary concern was the clinical care of residents. Legislation and regulations refer to "institutional care" which gives out a certain message that can often lead to a restriction on the choices and opportunities of residents. It can also create a tendency towards isolation from the community and the way of life with which residents are familiar and strongly linked. Institutions should be about providing opportunity for older people as well as about providing traditional care.

The aim of the community arts programme is to promote the widest possible access to the arts. People in residential care should have the same rights as any other group to community arts which are customised to their particular needs. The aim of the Age and Opportunity arts in care project was to provide a training programme for nurses and catering and housekeeping staff in nine residential centres in the midlands. All staff were involved and the goal was to provide stimulation to counteract institutionalisation and to deliver social gain as stated in the health strategy. FETAC has recognised the course and 46 staff who successfully completed the first stage are now involved in hands-on projects across many activities with the older people for whom they care. These take a creative and artistic approach and range from drama and plays to making items of interest and meaning for the older people from a wide spectrum of materials. Who would argue that older people cannot be creative? Other activities include movement to music, singing, poetry, storytelling, painting and writing. As the older people in question have been pursuing these activities all their lives, why should they not give more time to them when the opportunities to do so become available in residential care?

The after-care project has been evaluated against the aims set for it with very positive results. The staff in centres were very positive towards the project because, for the first time, they felt that an outside organisation was coming in to help them to do their job better and recognise the excellent job they were doing. The quality of life indicators relevant to arts in care and equality include being active and not being bored, having choice in what one does, seeing new faces, having new experiences, having stimulation, maintaining one's personal identity, achievement and having something to talk about with one's friends and family when they visit.

The project in the midlands, the pilot project established to demonstrate the value of arts in care, has become part and parcel of a quality of life programme for all residential centres in the Midland Health Board area. We have appointed activity co-ordinators for it and it has become part of the healthy hospitals programme. A positive feature of the training programme is that it has grown organically and naturally since its inception. Age and Opportunity would like to extend it to residential care centres.

Chairman

I am sure Ms McDonald would like to speak at this point. She will be given an opportunity to respond to some of the comments and questions once committee members have made their contributions. We now turn to the Irish Association of Older People, of which Mr.Brendan McLoughlin is chairperson. I ask him to introduce his colleagues, please.

Mr. Brendan McLoughlin

Ms Emer Hally deals with educational development. Ms Sheila Simmons, founding director of the association, will speak to the paper on our behalf. As well as being chairperson of the association, I am chairperson of the St. Vincent de Paul hostel, Back Lane, Dublin and the St. Vincent de Paul hostels nationally.

Ms Sheila Simmons

We have already submitted documentation in relation to the role and functions of the association.

Chairman

The committee thanks the association for those documents, which all members have received.

Ms Simmons

I will not rehearse what has been said by previous speakers on older people, all of which we support. In preparing this paper we noted that this new Oireachtas committee came under the aegis of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and covered the areas of equality and discrimination. For this reason, we framed the paper in the context of the published report. However, yesterday, when I made the submission, I realised the committee addressed a much broader agenda. Perhaps, therefore, we will confine ourselves to identifying just a few of the recommendations in the report which we, as older people working on a purely voluntary basis who listen to other older people every day, would prioritise.

We are very conscious that we are speaking to a committee consisting of our legislators. For this reason, I will, first, turn to the legal framework within which the anti-discrimination legislation operates. Given that we are now at the stage of drafting a new treaty, it is important to note the current position on older people in the context of the European Union. In 1993 the attention of the association was first drawn to the fact that policies for older people had no basis in law in the Treaty of Rome. In the run-up to the Maastricht treaty we joined other non-governmental agencies in Europe in lobbying for some provision to be made. During the Irish Presidency we succeeded in having age included as a category in the section dealing with discrimination for which the Government should take credit. However, the provision was only aspirational and had no direct effects.

Our association strongly welcomed the enactment in domestic law of anti-discrimination provisions in the Employment Equality Act. We were aware, however, of the qualification that these provisions only related to people aged 65 years and under. The intention obviously was to address the difficulties being experienced in the paid workforce. We were also aware of the constitutional problem which arose with the second Employment Equality Act, with regard to the status of older people. We felt it was important to get the principle of equality onto the Statute Book and were assured we would be able to address the weaknesses we perceived in the current Act in amending legislation.

When the Equality Authority was established, at the invitation of the chief executive officer, the association prepared a position paper on the current status of older people. The report was presented to the board of directors and a decision was then taken to convene an advisory committee, composed of older people's organisations and the social partners, to assist in the preparation of a report on age discrimination. Each of the groups in attendance today was party to this committee. I represented our association and attended all meetings. We made oral and written submissions and circulated interim reports to the association's directors, which approved the final draft. This was the first occasion in the experience of our association at which an opportunity was provided at national level to participate in a forum, which provided a level playing field, was chaired by a skilful and independent chairperson and where parity of esteem characterised the process. We felt that this was a very positive development.

Understandably, Implementing Equality for Older People incorporates many of the recommendations made during the years by the National Council on Ageing and Older People and the programmes on positive attitudes designed by Age & Opportunity. While the contribution of the voluntary and community sector may be considerably weaker, it is important to bear in mind that volunteers tend to be gifted amateurs with very limited resources. Their contribution, however, represents the authentic voice of older people. They represent the voiceless to the best of their ability. That is an important issue for us as we are now involved in a number of the partnership models of policy formulation and conscious of the fact that there is a constituency that might be out of sight and out of mind.

Implementing Equality for Older People presents us with a national agenda to be addressed on behalf of all older people. The association is reassured to know that the National Economic and Social Forum has established a project team to examine the implementation issue arising from the report. Mr. Carrroll drew the committee's attention to this fact.

We have been working for over a decade with and for older people. We are at a stage where we have a national agenda to which we have all signed up. Each of our groups may be according a different priority to the recommendations, but we believe we are at a stage where we should be focusing on implementation. From the point of view of the participation of older people, we learn by doing. We have circulated a copy of our newsletter, Getting On, in which we set out our philosophy in regard to the role of older people. It also contains details of the work we do on a daily basis as volunteers. We devoted a great deal of time in that issue to the question of the equity release scheme about which we are receiving many queries. We usually address subjects in this way and publish the newsletter when we have the necessary resources.

We want to emphasise the fact that voluntary participation represents the authentic voice of older people. In the recommendations in the publication presented with the national agenda we were conscious of not trying to reinvent the wheel. We accord the highest priority to the health and community services area arising from the report's recommendations. I do not wish to rehash what was said by the representatives of the National Council for the Elderly, but it did all the research, which we supported. We are grateful to it for it and have used it in many papers.

The preferred choice of older people is to age in their own homes and within communities in which they are known and accepted. Some of the recommendations in this section have already been implemented under the health strategy, many of which merit dedicated funding and staff provision, as well as a role for the older person as a service user. It is of crucial importance to older people that we are moving from a supply and demand model of service provision to one that is person-centred and needs-driven.

We are working on a number of pilot schemes within the health boards such as the home first programme in operation in the Eastern Regional Health Authority, area No. 8. The purpose of the scheme is to bring people home from acute hospitals with a care management programme in place and a multi-disciplinary approach. This minimises the demand for institutional care by as much as a fortnight or three weeks. There is a co-ordinated plan within the health strategy between local authorities, the Department of Social and Family Affairs and the health agencies. My colleague, Ms Emer Hally, is working on a pilot scheme in the Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown area in order that we will not have replication of effort.

I wish to speak about the housing adaptation grants system currently in operation. We represent older people on the community platform, a section of the community and voluntary pillar. We prepared a paper on the operation of the grants system which supports older people by adapting houses to their needs in order that they can remain at home. We also accord priority to chapter 6, having regard to the projected population increase of active older people and, I hope, continuing high employment levels. The recommendations in this section should receive urgent attention. In a Reith radio lecture of two years ago it was suggested that the centre of gravity is altering in the demographic profile. Young people are staying in school longer, marrying later and will remain longer in the paid workforce.

Within the trade union movement in Britain there is concern that if the demand for labour increases, people will be compelled to remain in the workforce. Many believe they have earned the right to some bonus years and want to take their pension. The question of choice is very important. I am old enough to remember the time when an age limit order had to be brought forward in the public service because of the problem of young people requiring employment. The prejudice against older people, in terms of training and retraining and also in terms of promotional opportunities, is a cause of concern. There was the recent case of a 41 year old man in the public service who successfully took a case for discrimination on the basis of age. This is very worrying.

The third area of priority is chapter 7 which deals with the question of income for older people. Those dependent on social welfare payments as their main source of income have enjoyed substantial increases in real terms since 1998. However, these did not equal those in after-tax income from employment. This affected the relative position of older people because their standard of living did not rise as rapidly as those in employment. I do not wish to get involved in a discussion on relative and consistent poverty, but pension payments should be linked to the average industrial wage.

Although we did not address it much in Implementing Equality for Older People, there is an issue around those in receipt of personal occupational pensions in regard to the absence of an escalator clause and the kind of pension schemes being brought forward with fixed contributions but not fixed benefits. We need to deal with this. There is also concern about those relying on investment income because of the equity situation.

Research has proven that higher proportions of elderly people live in poverty in comparison with other age groups. Women aged over 65 years are the group most adversely affected. Women of my generation who exited from the workforce on marriage and are generally insured as dependants of their husbands are the worst affected. In the interests of equity, protecting elderly people from income poverty should be accorded a high priority.

In summation we accord priority to chapters 6, 7 and 8 of Implementing Equality for Older People, which we accept as the national agenda. I thank the committee for inviting me.

Chairman

I am delighted you came. I thank you for your enlightening contribution. We will now proceed to the Irish Senior Citizens Parliament. I welcome Mr. Michael O'Halloran, former Lord Mayor of Dublin. It is appropriate that he should be associated with the Irish Senior Citizens Parliament.

Mr. Michael O’Halloran

Our delegation includes Ms Sylvia Meehan, president of the parliament; Mr. Peter Sands, vice-president, and Mr. Paddy Donegan, honorary secretary.

Chairman

Being a politician, Mr. O'Halloran will be well aware of time constraints.

Mr. O’Halloran

Yes. We did not receive the invitation to attend this meeting until 3 December. I have a written submission, but it is not as detailed as I would like for which I apologise.

Chairman

I apologise also. We were feverishly searching for the Irish Senior Citizens Parliament and are delighted a delegation has attended.

Mr. O’Halloran

I agree with everything that was said by previous contributors, particularly in regard to the attention that should be paid to the report in question. As the Chairman said, I have had some involvement in politics and know from experience that it is quite difficult to turn theory into practice. Therefore, drawing the committees attention to a long list of issues is probably as good as going into the bookmakers and backing ten horses in the hope that all ten will win. I have to identify how a strategy might be developed to deal with some of the issues involved. I recognise they cannot all be dealt with at the same time. We have to be practical.

The organisation I represent was founded as a result of an initiative at the level of the European Parliament in 1993 whereby a senior citizens parliament was held in Europe. Its representatives were those invited by MEPs from each member state. One thing at which the Chairman could usefully look in his spare time is the declaration from that parliament which identified some of the broader issues concerning older people. It states, for example, that older people should have access to political decision making at the highest level. The social partnership talks serve as a good example in this regard. Many groups are represented, but older people are excluded, as Mr. Bob Carroll stated so well in his opening presentation.

The recognition of older people in society is a significant issue. Granting this recognition would not solve all the problems, but it would give older people a role in influencing the outcome of decision making that affects not only the quality of their lives, but also the quality of life of the whole community. The failure to recognise this has been a serious omission in our democracy and runs contrary to the recommendation made by the European Parliament. I am not saying it was done deliberately; it is a question of omission and I hope it will be addressed. Any influence the committee could bring to bear on the matter would be welcomed by older people's organisations.

There are aspects of the law that require amendment. There is a difficulty in passing any law - because of drafting, time constraints etc. - even if there is all-party agreement. However, there are two aspects of law that could and should be dealt with. The first concerns some of the education Acts, particularly those setting up the Dublin Institute of Technology and the regional technical colleges. They are independent colleges with their own boards of governors. However, people over 70 years of age cannot sit on these boards, regardless of their talents or experience. That is not acceptable to older people.

There is no age restriction on who can stand for President, but if one tried to amend the Constitution to restrict those eligible to contest the presidential election, not only would one annoy older people, one would also annoy many politicians in Dáil Éireann approaching 70 years. There would be no justification for it. I have been told not to mention names - which I accept - but I could mention many older people who, if on the boards of governors, could make wonderful contributions because of their past experience.

Let us consider an administrative example which shows how things could be put right. Dúchas recently placed an advertisement in the newspapers for part-time - not full-time or pensionable - guides for cultural sites. An application from anyone over 65 years was not acceptable. People over 65 years often have a very rich knowledge of history or of their local communities, and would be the best guides, as is evident in America. At many cultural sites in America the guides are older people because of their knowledge and experience.

The above examples are small but significant nevertheless. In the area of commercial administration small incidents occur and we have had little or no success in trying to address them. People cannot travel on certain airlines - which I will not name because of the people involved - because of restrictions concerning passports. Legally, I do not have to have a passport to travel to the United Kingdom. If I have never had a passport or driven a car, a certain airline will not give me a ticket when I go to Dublin Airport. That is not acceptable. The same conditions do not apply in other parts of Europe. These matters may seem insignificant, but they create great difficulty for older people. Sometimes people in their nineties have been turned back by the airline in question. It is not a humane way to treat people.

Another example relates to the insurance industry in which discrimination based on age takes place. The industry states it is a question of actuarial risk. We do not even know the basis on which actuarial risk is determined; it is merely included in the Act and the industry takes advantage of it.

It is always important to read the terms of reference or Standing Orders of a committee. I note two items in the Standing Orders that could be of great assistance to older people. One is that the committee has the right to initiate discussion on new legislation. Identification should be made of what could be put right by way of legislation that would have all-party agreement and not be difficult.

Breaking new ground will be difficult. We think there is a need to have employment legislation examined but know that this will take time. Many Departments will want to have a say in the matter. We know there is something in An Agreed Programme for Government about changing the rules in relation to people going back to work when they get the retirement pension at the age of 65 years. That area would be more difficult to address but not impossible. Discrimination against older people in private sector employment or the public service could be tackled quickly, as could the law that prohibits them from participation.

The pension of a public servant who retires and then returns to work in the public service - it may be that they are required to return rather than choosing to do so - may be abated by the State. This is a disincentive to return to work. Many people have been offered positions where there were difficulties in filling vacancies and would have returned if that rule did not exist. This is discriminatory and needs to be considered.

It is great to have the power to bring Ministers and Ministers of State before the committee. I believe they can offer written excuses offering reasons for non-attendance.

Chairman

They do so at their peril.

Mr. O’Halloran

I am sure they would be very courteous and would want to meet the committee. I accept that turning theory into practice is difficult. We need a programme of action for older people that clearly sets out what ought to be done and when it is going to be done and older people should be consulted about its contents. The Ministers for Health and Children and Social and Family Affairs and the Minister of State with responsibility for older people should be charged with drawing up this programme and given the resources to do so. This committee would not have the resources to do this, but it could suggest areas of priority to those Ministers. It would be useful if a Minister was brought before this committee and asked to develop a programme of action for older people and make a report within a reasonable period. Older people must be enabled to play their part in society.

Ms Sylvia Meehan

We fully support the need to remove the limit of one needing to be under 65 to be covered by the anti-discrimination employment legislation. We would like to remind the committee of the high representation of older people in caring roles within their family circles. No one will disagree that this work is of great value and its withdrawal would undoubtedly shift a great responsibility and expense on to State services.

The carer's allowance, which, in comparative terms, was introduced quite recently, is strictly means tested. Where a married couple is in receipt of a social welfare old age pension and one of them is in need of care, which is provided by the partner, the carer does not receive any additional payment. This is similar to the traditional case of women's work being in the home; the person doing the work is not deemed to be economically active in any labour force survey. Lip service is paid to the idea of this work contributing to the general good.

Support for older people should include assistance in terms of training and capacity building for local groups throughout the country, many of which are now coming into existence. Older people have moved from a conviction that something should be done for them to a realisation that nothing will be done until they do it for themselves. Increasingly, they are seeking a voice that represents their needs. We recommend that there should be an age balance in decision-making agencies, authorities and regulatory bodies that decide on priorities of public development. They only occasionally have the benefit of the views of older people. There is still a great tradition of other people speaking for older people rather than letting them do it for themselves.

Many older people in rural areas are isolated through the lack of provision of transport and social centres as well as day care centres that provide ancillary health services and obviate the need for hospitals. There is a great need for an institution to look after all voluntary and development initiatives.

Older people are not a homogenous group. Many people with a greater chronological age have great capacity, but this is not being used. It is not only that older people seek reward, they seek facilities where they can be of use to the community and make a tremendous contribution in the voluntary sector.

Ms McDonald

Coming out as an older person is not an easy thing, but it is particularly difficult for women. There are many subversive older women who have not yet come out as older people. Even within women's organisations, the voice of older women was something that was not listened to. I discovered this when I became involved with the politics of ageing. Age & Opportunity has sought to give a voice to older women and started the older women's network which has evolved from its work. Older women make up the largest group of older people in Ireland. There are twice as many older women as men living alone. Perhaps this is because older men attract companionship more than older women.

Chairman

Let us not go into the reasons for it.

Ms McDonald

There are many issues for older women which were not being addressed by the older women's organisations or older people's organisations generally. Therefore, they needed a distinctive voice to discuss the issues.

There is blatant discrimination in the breast screening initiative in having a cut-off age of 65 years, even though breast cancer is suffered by many older women. Older women belong to a generation of women who have suffered multiple discrimination throughout their lives. They were prohibited from working for many years and suffered unequal pay. As they continue into older age, they are much more likely to suffer from poverty than any other group. That is what we are about.

Chairman

I thank you for your well made points.

Deputy Ó Fearghaíl

As a new member of the joint committee, I have found the presentations fascinating and educational. From my own experience in County Kildare, older people are actively involved in a wide spectrum of community activity. One of the main driving forces in my election campaign was a man of 90 years who is very active.

I have two main concerns. As a committee, we must look at how we can address them with those making the presentations to move the issues forward in the term of office of the Government. The issue of discrimination was alluded to in practically every presentation and something at which we need to look. On a practical level, it would be useful for the committee to invite representatives of the Equality Authority to discuss the publication referred to by everyone present. My first experience of the problem was when I was approached by someone who had applied to Kildare County Council for the post of courthouse caretaker and was told that, because he was 51years of age, he was too old - the cut-off point was 50 years. That type of discrimination is abhorrent and the kind to which Mr. O'Halloran referred in which active discrimination is enshrined in legislation. We must ascertain if all legislation can be age-proofed to ensure this type of discrimination does not arise.

Local delivery of health services has improved. Home helps now have better standing in the community given their improved remuneration. The appointment by all health boards of directors of services for older people gives a better focus to services at local level. The availability of medical cards for the over 70s, the increase in pensions, improvements in housing for older people and increased disabled person's grants have all improved conditions for older people. There is greater activity locally in communities and a greater focus on older people as local authorities begin to highlight them. There have also been improvements in the essential repairs grant for those living in rural areas where, as MsMcDonald pointed out, one finds many older women living in poor circumstances and who could benefit significantly from the grant.

I thank witnesses for what they have told us. I have been educated by the presentations, but we need to put a process in place in order that we can maintain contact and yield benefits along the lines of those outlined in the presentations.

Deputy S. Ryan

I compliment all concerned on their excellent presentations. Many of us have heard about these issues before and a decision must be taken today as to where we go from here. Many Governments have paid lip-service to the needs of older people. For instance, there is no role for them at national level in relation to social partnership which has been in operation for ten or 12 years. The Establishment is prepared to accept that various groups can make presentations to the Minister for Finance in pre-budget submissions, but what heed is taken of them? They might get a little but not much.

What seems clear from today's presentations is the need for equality in legislation and a mechanism to cater for older people's needs in legislation. All of the witnesses have made excellent submissions, but, rather than going off on a tangent, let us pull together the important elements to move forward. We need something that will make a real impact for older people. As the Chairman has given them the opportunity, let us ensure they are listened to. Most have given of their time and effort on a voluntary basis and bring to bear the experience they have gained in other areas of life, but it will be a waste of time unless we put something in place from today. I hope the committee will work to put in place a structure that will bring about real improvements for those represented by the organisations which have made presentations here today.

Chairman

I ask Deputy McGinley to take the Chair for a few minutes.

Deputy McGinley took the Chair.

Acting Chairman (Deputy McGinley)

I thank Deputy Ryan.

Deputy F. McGrath

I welcome all the different groups and organisations. I am a newly elected Member for Dublin North Central and an Independent Deputy. I thank all the groups, particularly those working directly with the elderly, for their massive contribution to the country over the last 40 to 60 years. We do not thank people often enough. I know from dealing with day-to-day politics that many are dismayed at and dissatisfied with all of the scandals. That message comes across strongly from our elderly population who have always had a tremendous regard for public servants and integrity. I want to make it clear that we will try to represent their views and do our best.

We often do not recognise the strengths of our elderly people, particularly those anchored to their communities. I know from experience in my constituency, particularly in poorer parts of the community, that many of those involved in unemployment centres or running credit unions are retired. They are making a massive contribution to society. Another issue on which nobody seemed to touch is the contribution of older people to the area of people with disabilities. They provide services that I think have saved the State €2 billion. I come across these brave and wonderful people every day. They work with adults with disabilities and provide backup services. As a society, we do not give them enough backup.

I take the point about the health strategy. In relation to community services, I strongly support the idea of providing services in their own homes for the elderly if this is their preferred choice. They should also be staffed and resourced adequately. In relation to the question of poverty, the gap is too wide. Despite what successive Governments say, there is a massive gap between working and retired persons. That is not acceptable. I find it disheartening to realise this when I meet people who have made a massive contribution to society.

Another issue that did not come up was security for the elderly. What struck me when we were knocking on doors during the general election campaign was the number of doors locked and chained at 6.30 p.m. in the beautiful month of May. I found it unacceptable that people were afraid to come out and talk to different candidates. It was because of anti-social gangs and behaviour and the threat of violence. It is all very well to blame the Government, but we must also take responsibility ourselves. Sometimes I blame communities. In poorer communities one often sees examples of good practice - people looking after their grandparents better than in the more affluent areas where a person may not know someone who lives two doors down the road. As a society we must accept this.

I mentioned gaps in services. I do not accept that after seven years of the Celtic tiger there should be any gaps in any services. This whole debate should centre around the question of society and resources. For me, it is a civil rights issue. I heard a number of people talking about equality and remembered, years ago, listening to Ms Sylvia Meehan talking about the same issue. The same applies today. Any society that does not cherish its elderly is going nowhere. That is the bottom line.

I agree strongly with Mr. Michael O'Halloran's points about the right to work and policies that integrate rather than segregate. We must face up to the reality of discrimination - one cannot have educational projects in institutions which discriminate against the elderly.

A number of speakers mentioned the role of the arts. This is vital. An arts Bill is passing through the Houses and if there is anything we can do to assist in funding, people should let us know very quickly.

Institutionalisation was mentioned. I am opposed to this as we must have credible projects for the elderly. All one has to do is look at the response we have received from elderly people around the Dáil for the last six months. They bring a buzz to the Chamber, restaurant or bar. Many of them are very interested in politics, current affairs, trade unions and community groups. They have a lot to give and I have learned a lot from them.

I mentioned poorer sections of society. We must learn from other countries. I was recently in Latin America where I saw the respect accorded to the family and the elderly. The American Indians also have a tremendous regard for the elderly. We are losing this. It can even be seen in our own Traveller community. People spend their lives giving out about Travellers and what they do and do not do, but if one ever examines how he or she treats his or her elderly, one can see the respect he or she has for them. It is a very noble tradition that is carried on very strongly. We should learn from the poorer groups in society.

In relation to passports, the attitude of Ryanair is absolutely disgraceful and we should challenge it. I also agree that we need an action programme for older people, but there is no point in having all these different groups here unless we get this action programme going. I am giving a commitment that I will support any of the parties and groups present on an action programme. Let the Ministers come and work with us and the representatives present to draw up such a programme. I thank the visitors for attending today's meeting.

Deputy Hoctor

I will be brief. I represent Tipperary North and I am newly elected to the Dáil. It is appropriate that the groups present which I welcome are visiting today on the international day of human rights. The meeting has been very enlightening for me. Since becoming a Member I have received magazines and documentation from the various bodies and must admit I would not have been aware, as a Member from outside Dublin, that they existed. We see the work of voluntary community groups at home, but I would not have been aware of the different older people's organisations. I welcome the opportunity of listening and learning so much from the visitors today.

I take on board what Deputy Ryan said about plans for the future. As people elected by our constituents, we look at the needs of our own areas, which have been aired here today. There is a need for community-based radio which has been under threat in recent times from the larger commercial radio stations. Community-based radio is a wonderful service, particularly for older citizens whose interests are catered for more than by the larger stations. This issue has not died. It is of particular interest to me because of the representations being received from all areas of society at home but especially from the elderly community.

Initiatives with regard to rural transport have been encouraging in recent times; transport has been introduced in more isolated areas which will target the older citizens of rural communities. Today we talked about connectedness - the importance of remaining connected as one grows older. As the representatives have so clearly explained to us today, there is a tendency towards isolation as people grow older. This is exacerbated when people end up living alone. People can remain connected through the media or the rural transport initiative which has been identified as a great breakthrough for rural communities.

I am a member of a town council which has tried to discriminate in favour of elderly people. As single parent families account for 57% of our housing applications, there may be a tendency for local authorities to cater for them and leave aside the elderly person looking for secure accommodation in their older years. As elected members on town councils, we should address the fact that there are elderly people who have worked and contributed all their lives to the upkeep of the nation and in whose favour we must discriminate because they could be outweighed in number by younger people seeking to be housed.

Another area we could address within the legislation is that of motor insurance. Most people, after a certain age, will not make longer journeys to cities. Accidents are not caused so much by older people on the road but by people who are speeding. It is a major problem for older members of our communities in respect of whom motor insurance is heavily weighted. The Minister for Transport is trying to negotiate with the insurance companies to claw back some of the money which they are charging, in view of the fact that more of the older citizens only take short journeys. This should be taken into consideration because a huge financial burden is being placed on older people.

I am a teacher and the area of education is very important to me. Young people have a great regard for their grandparents. The role they play in the lives of young people can never be overestimated. It needs to be extended so that they have regard for everyone's grandparents. It is important to address the area of ageism in the education curriculum. The burden we undeservedly impose on older people should be seen as the real problem. Young people could be part of that if they are not made to reflect on their actions. There is much more that could be said, but I am delighted to have had the opportunity to listen and comment.

Deputy P. Power

Much of what I intended to say has been said by other speakers, particularly Deputy McGrath who referred to new, and particularly young, Deputies in Dáil Éireann. Our guests can see the divide here. There are many new, young Deputies this term.

One of the things which struck me since I was elected, and even before that, has been the feeling which we have as public representatives - a few months ago we met almost everyone in the country, old young and in between - that we have a very good appreciation of the public mood on many issues. During and since the general election I gained a sense of the enormous feeling among young people of our duty, as legislators, to the elderly. Many young people have told me that they do not want more tax cuts, they want their elderly parents and grandparents to be taken care of. They said they were all right and doing far better than their parents or grandparents ever could and felt that the job of public representatives is to take care of them. I do not say this condescendingly, I am just reflecting reality as I see it.

In addition to our role as legislators, we must also listen to the contributions being made. I was struck by the point made by most of our guests that the elderly are not a homogenous group. Some of them are extremely healthy, engaged in society and have made great preparations for their old age. Some are unhealthy, some in poverty and some have made no preparations for their old age. There are different requirements in that group and it is important for us, as legislators, to reflect that.

Many of the points have been addressed by other speakers. One point, which was made by Deputy McGrath, is that most of those with whom I deal in my constituency are elderly people living in severe poverty. As far as I can see, most of the people here are doing all right. I do not know how to put it any other way. Many of the people I deal with are not doing all right. They live in substandard accommodation and have no income other than their non-contributory old age pension. It is extremely difficult to live on that. There are so many different issues, but that is one, more than any other, on which we must focus.

I was interested that nobody addressed the huge problem of the transition of people from work into retirement. This is one of the greatest problems of old age because many people who are ceasing to work now should not be considered elderly. They still face enormous problems because they do not plan for their retirement and are incapable of coping with the problems it presents. I have personal experience of that over the past number of months. It can have an enormous adverse psychological effect on elderly people when, after a lifetime of work and contribution to society, they suddenly feel that the line has been drawn and they are left out in the cold, not having prepared for it. I do not speak for everyone; many people plan for their retirement, but others do not. I did not detect this from the representatives of the various groups and I apologise if I missed that point. Will they indicate if this is something we should consider and should have a strategy to address?

I conclude on that point because, unfortunately, I have a commitment elsewhere. I apologise for having to leave. I thank everyone who came before the committee. Our contributions in the Oireachtas will be informed by their contributions today.

Acting Chairman

I remind everyone that we are obliged to conclude at 4.15 p.m. I want to give the representatives of the five groups who are present an opportunity to respond to the excellent contributions of members.

Deputy O’Connor

Unlike the last speaker, I am a much older man and I am very proud of that. I find myself in between, in the sense that I am a new Dáil Deputy, a little over 200 days here, and I am the oldest of the four Dáil Deputies from Dublin South West. This is an amazing feat because Dublin South West, particularly the Tallaght area where I live, is a huge population centre.

At a time when political parties are saying that they need young people, particularly young women - I have no problem with that - my constituents are still voting for elderly men.

Deputy S. Ryan

Long may it continue.

Deputy O’Connor

In a positive light, I see it as people voting for experience. I am supportive of services for the elderly. I live in a young constituency where the numbers of older people would be smaller than other parts of the country, but I still have a perspective. I believe in promoting facilities for the elderly and it is important to do so in a non-patronising manner. Those of us privileged enough to be Members of the Oireachtas must pursue those issues. That is why this has been a positive meeting.

Like Deputy Hoctor, I go through the tonnes of mail I receive every day. Colleagues have told me I do not need to read everything, but I take it seriously when people take the time to send me letters. If I can help any of the groups in any way, I will be happy to do so. I wish all the groups well and congratulate them on their presentations today. I also wish them a happy Christmas.

Acting Chairman

Before inviting groups to respond, I echo the comments of the Chairman and welcome them and compliment them on the standard of their submissions. There is much for us to learn from them. We should acknowledge the huge contribution to the State and the economy made by those who have retired. It is not recognised often enough.

It has been a cliché for many years that our greatest national resource is our young people. That assertion not entirely accurate; we must include everyone, particularly those who have contributed so much. I noticed in one of the submissions that this is a developing corps. In 20 years, older people will exceed the number of people under 15. That will give them a great deal of power and influence. The plans have been submitted and we are impressed with them. It is all there in theory and we must now put it into practice. This committee will not overlook these submissions.

How do we compare to other countries in the EU or other parts of the world in our treatment of senior citizens? I am amazed there is no representation for older people in social partnership. Have the groups applied for representation? They should have an independent voice there. These submissions have been well expressed. The groups should co-operate with each other because they seem to have the same aims and they would be even more influential.

I will give a member of each of the five groups the opportunity to reply and make a final point. We will start with the National Council on Ageing and Older People.

Mr. Carroll

The question of priorities is difficult. We must distinguish between the elderly population generally and those groups which are particularly vulnerable. The former must be fully included in every domain without exception.

There are specific groups of older people who need particular care and attention. Many of them have been mentioned, but some have not. The council has published a number of documents, some of which were mentioned in the national health strategy, which require implementation. One is the action plan on dementia, which should be implemented in its entirety as a matter of urgency. We must think of those who cannot speak for themselves, particularly those with dementia.

Another area is residential care. We must think about the quality of such care. It must be adequately funded so the quality of services is good. Without adequate staffing, that will not be possible. The council has established a working group on abuse of elderly people. It has reported to the Minister and we would like to see the recommendations of the group implemented.

We must promote health among the older population, particularly the more vulnerable. That is the best course of action instead of waiting for people to arrive in hospital. There is a health promotion strategy for older people included in the national health strategy and we would like to see that put in place.

Chairman

The next contributors will be Age Action Ireland.

Mr. Webster

It is important to realise that ageing is a process, not a condition. Some of these issues are shared by older and younger people - poverty, transport and housing. Many of the proposals in the Equality Authority report could be applied to any group. Older people are not more important than any other group, they are just as important. When we deal with poverty we must deal with all aspects of it. There is an emphasis in politics on child poverty. We are saying that it is not just about child poverty, it is about all poverty and we must address that.

At least two organisations at this meeting are represented at the partnership talks. We are members of the community platform, a group of 26 organisations, and we argue that we should develop alliances with other groups. Next year is the European Year of People with Disabilities. We should look at the impact of ageing on disability.

There are three areas where we can take immediate action. First, remove age discrimination from legislation and regulations, starting with new employment legislation. Second, in terms of procedures, Michael O'Halloran gave some examples, but statistics are also important. We do not collect statistics on over 65s in terms of education and disability. That is wrong. We ought to extend our information and research right through the life course rather than excluding older people. Third, we need to think of ways of developing a rights-based approach. We would argue that if everybody has a right to a decent income, if pensions were linked to average earnings and if everybody had a right to core services, then older people, as well as the rest of the population, would be better off. Older people are part of society and not a separate group.

Ms McDonald

I was anxious to challenge Deputy Peter Power, who has left the room, and to say to him that you cannot judge a book by its cover. Even though we may all look affluent, not all of us are. I am one of those people living on a non-contributory old age pension. I resent the term non-contributory because I have contributed all my life, but on a voluntary basis. It annoys me that it should be called that. The work we are doing is about connectedness. It is all about helping to make that transition from working life into older age. I remind everybody here that we are all two hours older than when we came in here, so the work we are doing is on behalf of everybody. What we want to see is the Equality Authority document being adopted as a template.

Chairman

We all recognise the work Ms McDonald and others have done on a voluntary basis and very much appreciate it.

Ms Simmons

One of the Deputies raised the question of how, in relative terms, we look after our elderly. The Irish Association of Older People has been involved in a number of transnational studies and I have left a copy of one publication in which we were involved. In some ways we are excellent and in other ways we fall short. It is important to remember that each culture, and even each local area, has different needs and different strengths and weaknesses. That is why we very much favour local community based services.

The role of older people in care was raised. Just last week we talked to the social action committee of the Church of Ireland. We use these type of fora to obtain feedback on what older people in the wider community are thinking. We are finding, to give a specific example, women in their 60s who are adapting to the fact that their husband has just retired but are also caring for elderly parents who are now in their 90s. At the same time, they may have a daughter with young children and there is the expectation they will offer some support there. This is just part of the care issue we have to address.

We are the second organisation to serve on the community platform and attempt to express the voice of older people. Our objectives include a specific role for frail and vulnerable people, and the priority of the community platform is to deal with disadvantage. It is quite difficult when 26 organisations are attempting to do something. Our contribution on this occasion involved, first, proposing that some centres of excellence be established - I am glad to say two or three of them are coming on stream in the Dublin area - and, second, we did some work with Threshold in relation to housing.

On Vincent Browne's radio programme last night, one Deputy made the point that Ireland has, in relative terms, a very young population. In the preparations for discussions on a new national agreement, David Begg of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions made two very relevant points: first, that we need to look at the whole issue of social cohesion; and, second, that we need to consider the issue of care for people throughout the whole life journey and not just for the elderly. There is a danger we might get a backlash against older people. With respect to the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, we saw this when medical cards were allocated to people over 70. That organisation responded by asking about young people, families and so on. We should have been seeking medical cards for all disadvantaged people. It is important to bear this in mind in the interests of social cohesion.

Mr. O’Halloran

Deputy McGinley inquired about the relative situation between Ireland and other countries. His question deserves a reply, but more time would be required to facilitate this. Those of us who can so do should send the information to the Deputy when we gather it. I will give two simple examples, however, based upon research in Ireland. A person is in greater danger of dying from hypothermia in Ireland than in Finland. Finland is a country with extremely low temperatures in winter. The reason people are not at as much risk in Finland is the money that is spent on housing, particularly heating and insulation. It is an unbelievable system.

There is nobody present who represents Wexford. In Wexford town, it is not possible to get a wheelchair-accessible taxi. These are very small things, but you must act locally if things are to improve. In order to carry out the comparison requested by Deputy McGinley, one must look not only at the services older people get, their pensions, long-term care and all the other issues identified here today, one must also look at the level of tax people are prepared to pay. As a former politician who once knocked on doors, I understand that it is almost impossible for any political party to argue for an increase in taxes in order to improve society. As a people and a community, this is something we will eventually have to debate, not here today but on some occasion in the future.

It is interesting that the Prime Minister of Sweden went on television with the leaders of seven other parties and said that if he was re-elected he would not reduce taxes because that would mean reducing services. What we want in Ireland are the best services and the lowest taxes, but that is not possible. We must be honest and face up to that. The recommendation of the National Pensions Initiative report is 34%. We would all agree that action speaks louder than words, but it must be against a particular background. This is the last point I want to make. Deputy Power has left, but I went out and lobbied him in respect of wherever else he was going. That is the only way to do it.

Deputy O’Connor

Deputy Power is a young man in a hurry.

Mr. O’Halloran

If my good friend, Deputy O'Connor, wants an application form, we will give him one because he has made great play of being an old Deputy. We will give him honorary membership of all the organisations. We must be intergenerational in our objectives and rules because we are fathers and grandfathers. Also, what is done for older people today is what younger people will inherit in the future when they are old. Those of us who are old were not always old. We were young at one time. We are inheriting the pension schemes in place, good or bad, health services and so on. The building of a society for this generation will also benefit the next. That fact is sometimes missed, which is why we press it.

I thank the Chairman for his courtesy in meeting our deputation and his patience in listening to my long-winded but relevant contribution.

Chairman

Thank you very much. We have done very well. We have gone just a couple of minutes beyond what we had intended. I thank our guests for giving us an insight into what their organisation does and the problems of the elderly in society from which I hope we will learn and see whether there is some way we can improve things, not only for their benefit, but also for our own in the future.

Anybody who feels he or she did not have an opportunity to adequately lay out his or her stall today should feel free to send us further information in writing and we will ensure it is passed on to committee members. At this point I invite you all upstairs for a cup of tea or coffee. I look forward to working with you all again in the future.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.25 p.m. until 5.55 p.m.

The Joint Committee met at 5.55 p.m.

Members Present:

Deputy J. Costello,	Deputy P. McGrath,
Deputy J. Devins,*	Deputy C. O’Connor,
Deputy M. Hoctor,	Deputy S. Ó Fearghaíl,
Deputy M. McDowell (Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform),	Senator M. Kitt.*

*In the absence of Deputy D. O'Donovan and Senator T. Kett, respectively.