Commissioner Byrne, will you please introduce your colleagues to the committee?
Garda Síochána Annual Report: Presentation.
Garda Commissioner Pat Byrne
I thank the Chairman for having us here. I am accompanied by Deputy Garda Commissioner, Noel Conroy, who is head of operations; Chief Superintendent David Roche, who is my personal assistant; Chief Superintendent Gerry Blake, who is the chief superintendent in the crime, policy and administration branch and Mr. Tom Quinn, who is our head of information technology. I brought my colleagues along to facilitate the committee in the event that their expertise is required to address aspects of the questions.
On Sunday night I met a student garda, Colm Finnerty, who saved three people from drowning in the River Liffey. He is a credit to the Garda Síochána and the training provided in Templemore. I invite the commissioner to make an opening statement.
Commissioner Byrne
I thank the Chairman for his kind words concerning student garda Colm Finnerty to whom I spoke in my office last week. His actions were tremendous and we are proud of him.
It is important to realise that the Garda Síochána is not just our law enforcement agency, but also our security service. By this I mean that, while we police this country through six operational regions, each of which is headed by an assistant commissioner, we also provide the service security services in other jurisdictions provide for their respective Governments. This means we interact on a daily basis with police services and security services across Europe. Our role extends beyond the service we provide to the community and the Government to providing security services and the required intelligence analysis across a broad range of subjects to the Government.
Our priority during the past 30 years, in terms of law enforcement and security, was to deal with the security issue which afflicted this island. We gained considerable expertise, acquitted ourselves well and acquired a good record in this area. We also learned a great deal in terms of expertise on the security side of the business from dealing with external agencies and we brought this to bear in recent years in dealing with organised crime.
I am not a believer in reinventing the wheel. Where possible, I will learn from other agencies as my people do. Many gardaí have studied abroad and many members of external services study in the Garda College in Templemore, which was recognised by the Patten Commission as one of the police training schools of excellence alongside the training academy of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.
We have 703 Garda stations and it is important that each is adequately resourced on an ongoing basis. The future of the organisation will be about change and there will be new challenges and expectations. Expectations rise daily and rightly so. We will be asked for greater achievement, performance and accountability, which is as it should be. While this can be achieved, it is important that we do not damage the expertise or performance of the service in doing so. At times some of our operations involve taking risks for the right reasons. We must always guard against complacency.
I strongly believe in the need to ensure that members of the Garda Síochána, both men and women, give of their best to the community and the Government. I detest the philosophy behind the saying used in the past by older policemen, both here and elsewhere, when offering advice to their younger colleagues, namely, "Do nothing, do it well and you will never get into trouble". We constantly guard against that philosophy.
There will be many new initiatives in the future. For example, we will have to deal with a multicultural society and the issue of policing traffic and traffic management needs to be overhauled, which is a matter we are looking into. While it is early days, the results of the introduction of the penalty points system have been positive. People must realise that we will vigorously enforce all traffic legislation. Organised crime will also be a challenge on which we will have to concentrate even greater efforts in the future, particularly as regards organised crime emanating from abroad and, most notably, eastern Europe.
I am often asked what I most want to achieve. My answer is to ensure the relationship between the people and the Garda Síochána - the people's police service - is maintained and enhanced. We are an unarmed police service and must do everything in our power to assist the community in policing itself. While the community polices itself, we must be available at all times to assist it in this task.
We changed the format of the annual report at the end of 1999 when we started operating a completely new information technology system. Before 1999 we categorised serious crime in four groups. These have been extended to ten categories known as headline crime. The old system lacked flexibility and we did not have the computing power to generate information. Fortunately, we now have sufficient computing power to generate a significant amount of information and statistics. Before 2000 we presented crime in the annual crime report as indictable and non-indictable. A number of new offences have been created and we captured them in the new system.
The figures for 2001 show that headline crime increased by 18% over the year 2000. The most significant changes were increases of 2,000 assaults, 6,000 larcenies of all types, 900 sexual offences and 2,000 burglaries. While I am aware that one can become mesmerised by statistics, they are very important in that they allow us to give an indication of what is happening in society.
The report also contains information on many other aspects of policing in terms of what we do, how we do it and how the organisation is structured. The Garda Síochána is structured differently to other organisations because of our additional responsibility, as outlined in my opening remarks. While it is important to monitor the figures, it is difficult to form judgments on crime based on figures for a one or two year period. Experts believe it is best to judge trends and provide an analysis of what is happening in terms of crime on the basis of a three to five year period. The report is in the public arena and gives an indication of what is happening as far as the Garda Síochána is concerned. It would be beneficial to anybody who wants to study figures and to understand how we provide a service to the community and to the Government.
Thank you very much, Commissioner. I am sure a number of my colleagues have questions and may wish to comment. We have a fairly tight timescale so members should keep their comments and questions as brief as possible. My running order comprises Deputies Hoctor, Deasy, Costello, Peter Power, Paul McGrath, Finian McGrath, Boyle and O'Connor.
As a newly elected TD, I welcome the opportunity to meet Commissioner Byrne and his colleagues and share some thoughts on the annual report of the Garda Síochána. I have already faxed some information to the Garda Commissioner's office so I will put my questions to which I would welcome a response either today or at the convenience of the Garda Commissioner and his staff.
I come from Nenagh and other colleagues also represent provincial towns. While I welcome the increase in Garda numbers from Templemore, there is a certain irony in the fact that we do not seem to benefit from those extra numbers which appear to have been absorbed into the larger urban areas. I understand that such deployment is needed but, nonetheless, a town such as Nenagh has the same staffing numbers of gardaí as it had 20 years ago.
We have witnessed an increase in crime, according to the figures the Garda Commissioner has presented to us, so I would like to know when towns such as Nenagh can look forward to having extra Garda numbers which are needed to ensure a greater presence on our streets.
My second question relates to rural villages where the local Garda represents a quiet but firm presence. I gave the example of villages such as Lorragh or Toomevara where the Garda Sergeant may retire, yet villagers are in doubt as to whether he will be replaced. I sincerely hope that when staffing calculations are made, a low crime rate in an area will not prove to be a prohibitive factor when it comes to allocating extra gardaí. A low crime rate may be due to the fact that a garda or garda sergeant has been present in a village and that should be taken into account.
Extra gardaí are required for dormer towns with growing populations outside larger towns and cities, such as Newport and Ballinagh. Is provision being made in accordance with Government policy to look after such areas of growing population? Ballinagh is currently served by the neighbouring town of Killaloe which is in a different county. Such areas need new Garda stations and personnel to assist gardaí operating from County Clare.
Many Garda stations are in poor repair and the arrangements between the Office of Public Works and the Garda Síochána do not appear to be working. Restoration work on such buildings is very slow. What does the Commissioner have to say about this matter?
A large number of gardaí are occupied with very necessary administrative work but, are there any plans to employ people qualified in forensics and criminology who could do that work? In that way our gardaí could be released on to the streets where they are badly needed.
Commissioner, we will ask all the Deputies to ask questions and make comments, so if you could make notes of these, you can reply to them at the end.
I thank the Commissioner for attending the meeting. Since taking up his post as Commissioner, we have seen massive increases in almost every category of crime. Can the Commissioner tell us why he thinks that is so and what he will do about it? Many members of the public are satisfied with the Garda Síochána but they are losing confidence. Can the Commissioner tell us why he should retain his post? He has been there for quite a few years while the increases in crime have been occurring.
I also wish to welcome the Commissioner and his colleagues to the joint committee. I was glad to see that the Patten report gave Templemore a high rating in terms of excellence. It might be beneficial for the joint committee to visit Templemore to see the regime there and examine the curriculum pursued by students. What does the Commissioner regard as the Garda strength necessary to deal with crime, considering that An Agreed Programme for Government promised 2,000 extra gardaí, yet we have not seen any of them? The Commissioner says organised crime is increasing both at home and abroad, according to the figures in the 2000 and 2001 annual reports of the Garda Síochána. Does he have any knowledge of the preliminary figures for the 2002 report?
Even with the change in the manner of categorising crime statistics, the 2001 report shows a dramatic increase - 83% in assaults, 81% in sexual assaults, and 65% in manslaughter. That represents an overall increase of 18% which is quite dramatic. I would like to have a detailed reply to these matters.
Would the Commissioner agree that the existing powers of the Criminal Assets Bureau are adequate to seize the proceeds of all areas of crime, without the necessity for new legislation or setting up a new agency?
The Commissioner also said he saw the Garda Síochána as a people's police force, but what proposals does he have to deal with allegations of Garda indiscipline? Is he satisfied with the current complaints body which amounts to the gardaí investigating themselves? I agree with the Commissioner in that if the partnership with the people is broken and the Garda Síochána are not seen to be accountable for their actions, we would find ourselves in a difficult situation.
CCTV cameras have been useful in dealing with crime in areas where there is a high incidence of it. What proposals does the Commissioner have for extending the use of CCTV cameras?
What regulations are in place governing Garda overtime and off-duty Garda activity? Why was the new breathalysing equipment not put in place in time for the Garda campaign against drink driving this year? What policies are in place to combat racism or allegations of racism in the Garda Síochána itself? How do the gardaí deal with racism on the streets?
Has the Commissioner had any discussions with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform about an extension of his contract for another term?
I thank the commissioner and his colleagues for taking time out from an extremely busy schedule to attend this meeting. It is deeply appreciated by the members of the committee.
In spite of what might have been said, I compliment the commissioner on a successful tenure in dealing with crime and security issues in a very difficult and changing context in recent years. He has brought a degree of professionalism and openness to the Garda which we have not seen before. I welcome this development.
The commissioner emphasised national security in his contribution, which I regard as important. What does he regard to be the country's position in terms of national security after 11 September 2001? In international media we read about the increasing number of threats from all sorts of groups, primarily al-Qaeda. Is Ireland under threat because of any of the policies it pursued?
The commissioner echoed the views of Deputy Costello on CCTV. I have seen the CCTV system working in local communities, funded through local authorities which co-operated closely with the Garda, particularly in Limerick. I strongly support the CCTV concept. I know there will be a roll-in programme of CCTV throughout the country. CCTV systems should be put in place as soon as possible.
Does the commissioner regard CCTV as a cost-effective method of crime prevention in terms of its serving as a deterrent? I believe that the expansion of a comprehensive CCTV system throughout the country, similar to that I have seen working in local communities, would have a great effect in reducing crime figures. The commissioner will be familiar with a number of recent high-profile murder cases where convictions have been secured, although not exclusively so, with the assistance of CCTV. The Garda relied heavily on footage from commercial CCTV systems in these cases.
I echo the points on the Criminal Assets Bureau, which has undoubtedly been a success and should be granted extra resources. I was interested to hear the commissioner's views on the traffic legislation. I welcome the fact that it will be enforced rigorously. What are the commissioner's views on the traffic corps, in respect of which a tentative proposal has been made? Will it work effectively?
Deputy Costello referred to the current position of the commissioner and the retirement age of gardaí. The retirement age seems very low, although the State and the Garda HR section have invested huge amounts of resources and effort in training people to a high level of specialisation. People who have considerable expertise and experience by their mid-fifties are suddenly asked to retire. Is that cost-effective or is it a waste of resources? There is no need for a written response to these questions.
Senator Terry, who submitted some questions, is engaged in the Seanad. Perhaps a written response could be sent to her because she will not be able to join us. I welcome Commissioner Byrne and his team.
I have three questions, the first of which concerns the provision of resources. We regularly see footage on television concerning patrol or squad cars which were damaged in accidents, very often maliciously by people who crashed into them deliberately? I tabled a parliamentary question in this regard and discovered that the cars are covered by State insurance. There is no specific insurance policy relating to them. I have seen firsthand that it can take a very long time to replace a squad car after it is damaged and taken out of service. In my own area, it took over two months to do so. In a small station like Mullingar, gardaí have no spare capacity. They have to patrol in their own cars. In addition, police presence diminished because of the loss of cars. I think 20% of the total fleet is out of service. That is unsatisfactory and I would like to hear the commissioner's response.
My second question concerns sick leave. In response to a parliamentary question, I was told that there are approximately 260 gardaí on sick leave. That figure represents about 2.5% of the total workforce. I appreciate that gardaí, by the very nature of their work, get injured in car accidents and malicious attacks at night. There is great potential for members of the Garda to be injured and some injuries can be very series and have an ongoing effect.
I was amazed to note that six of the 260 gardaí on sick leave are absent because of alleged bullying by their superior officers. Does the commissioner have a specific policy to deal the people on sick leave to ensure consistency between divisions? Is there a vigorous analysis of the options to ensure that specialists deal with the problems, rather than having each division dealing with them in an ad hoc manner? The increase in Garda numbers is being cancelled out by the numbers out on sick leave.
My final point, which was touched upon briefly, relates to the retirement age of 57. I know the commissioner does not set the retirement age, but does he have an opinion on it. In the past week a senior garda in my area retired. He was a fine policeman who was highly respected in the community and regarded as a rock of sense. He knew what was happening in the area and had his finger on the pulse, but he had to retire because he was 57. Surely more use could be made of experienced policemen like him.
There are several others who did fantastic work for the Garda until they had to retire at 57. Should there not be greater capacity for them to remain with the force? Perhaps it is argued that it is a young man's job and that gardaí on the street need to be able to take on hooligans. However, there is also a huge role for the very sensible people who could guide younger members of the force and tell them when it is appropriate to take on hooligans. If it was possible to stay in the force after the age of 57, many of the gardaí in their early fifties who are leaving after 30 years of service might do so. My preference would be a system whereby a garda can remain on the force after retirement age on the recommendation of a senior officer. This would allow gardaí to keep the pedal to the floor to age 57 in the hope of securing a recommendation to remain in the force. I would like to hear the commissioner's opinion on that. He could do a great deal to help change that decision. It would keep experienced gardaí on the force, improve the quality of service and increase the number of gardaí available.
It is important to remind ourselves that when talking about policing in Ireland and the protection of the public that the issue of public service and public servants has to be respected. It is essential that we have gardaí who are honest, ethical, serve the public and have strong respect for human rights. This also applies to civil servants and Deputies. This notion of public service seems to be dying out; it no longer seems to be fashionable.
Those of us who strongly favour good quality policing are often labelled as being anti-Garda when we are critical of certain operations or gardaí. It is important that this myth is ended. Those who want change and are in favour of good quality policing are often excluded and marginalised by certain people.
A number of people have praised the Criminal Assets Bureau. I was strongly supportive of it at its formation. I worked in Dublin's inner city for 20 years before I was elected to the Dáil. I found a great deal of anger and hurt in the poorest communities in the north inner city at the non-release of this money to community groups and projects for the elderly. I know this is a legislative problem and I have already raised it in the Dáil. There is massive anger that the money the CAB has secured is banked and is not invested in the communities that have been destroyed by these criminals.
The biggest number of complaints councillors and Deputies receive relates, in general, to antisocial behaviour. This problem seems to be out of control. Is there a connection between the serious violence witnessed on weekend nights and the mixing of alcohol and drugs? Does a bad management problem exist? It is well known in many areas in Dublin that outside certain chip shops and pubs there will be major problems between 11.30 p.m. and 3 a.m. on weekend nights. Surely plans could be put in place to prevent this.
Community policing is essential in disadvantaged areas. Gardaí cannot go into an area and seek respect, they must earn it. I remember the respect the drugs squad built in the poorest blocks of flats in the north inner city. They targeted the real criminals and drugs pushers.
Surveys have been conducted which show a high percentage of public support for the Garda. Much criticism is made of the force - Deputies and councillors hear it a lot - and the lack of policing in certain areas. Regarding theMcBrearty case, many people are very concerned about this potential miscarriage of justice. This information would not have emerged were it not for the breakdown of a marriage. This is a major scandal and the Garda Síochána will have to do a great deal of work to prevent such things happening again. Does the committee think it is appropriate that a person involved in the Nicky Kelly case was put in charge of the inquiry? Does this show a lack of judgment regarding this case?
If there are more gardaí in employment than at any time since the foundation of the State, we do not see them patrolling the streets? That is a question I hear regularly from members of the public. On page 47 of the annual Garda report it is stated that 174 people were arrested in Dublin's north inner city and €1.5 million worth of drugs seized. That figure seems quite small. Is it accurate? From where does the worst threat, in terms of political violence, come? Is it from dissident republicans, loyalists or other elements?
I heard the commissioners using the phrase "people's police service". That is what we want the Garda to be. Those of us with friends and family who served the force loyally for years want to see a people's police force where gardaí are in touch with the ordinary people. What strategies has the commissioner put in place to ensure that we get a people's police force?
A criticism one often hears in disadvantaged areas is that gardaí do not care for the poorest sections of society and are more interested in responding to the needs or concerns of shopkeepers or big businessmen. Some people feel totally excluded. Is that perception correct? Does the commissioner have any strategies to break down the barriers?
I am not a member of this committee, but the Chairman has invited me to use the opportunity of the visit of representatives of the Garda Síochána to address specific concerns that I recently expressed on the floor of the House.
The House recently debated the Private Security Services Bill and a number of Deputies mentioned that many gardaí worked, off duty, in this industry. The Minister for State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform brought a regulation to the attention of the House that might discourage or forbid this practice. Does this practice exist on a large scale within the force? Is it seen as acceptable to those who direct the force? Are the existing regulations adequate? If so, will appropriate action be taken to ensure the practice is discouraged? I am sure it would be agreed that it constitutes a large-scale conflict of interests.
I welcome the delegation, particularly Gerry Blake who patrolled many a street in Tallaght. I welcome the recent announcement that the current superintendent in Tallaght, Michael Burns, is to be made chief superintendent. Tallaght is obviously a good place.
The issue of retiring at age 57 has arisen at a number of recent meetings. I am seven months into this job and I will celebrate my 57th birthday in five months. I do not know that anybody plans to persuade me to retire. This is a serious issue and it is right that we signal it. Despite what people think, those who have reached the age of 57 have a contribution to make.
I live in Tallaght, the third largest population centre in the State. While we are well served by stations in Crumlin, Rathfarnham and Kingswood, there is only one Garda station in my constituency. The commissioner is aware that it is a cramped building with no parking for anyone, either members of his staff or of the general public. How are we going to progress matters vis-à-vis Tallaght Garda station?
I wish to comment upon the comparison that is often made, sometimes unfairly, between Tallaght and Limerick. I love Limerick and often visit it, but Limerick has more Garda stations and manpower than Tallaght. On each occasion I raise this issue - I do so quite regularly - I am informed that the Garda authorities are satisfied with the position. I am very positive about the work done by the Garda in Tallaght and my general constituency area of Firhouse, Greenhills and Templeogue, but I sometimes wonder about the numbers deployed there.
The Garda Síochána seems to cope well and runs many good initiatives out of the Tallaght station. We seem to be well ahead of the country in lots of ways. There is a mountain bike unit and a mounted unit, both of which visit communities quite often. There are a number of Garda initiatives working with disadvantaged youth and communities. Under one initiative set up with South Dublin County Council, the Garda actually hold clinics, if I can use that word. It is something that could be usefully repeated around the country. We are doing well in Tallaght, but it is a huge centre. Millions of people come to Tallaght to visit the hospital or the Square and that puts a lot of pressure on the Garda.
Does the Deputy have a question?
That is the question. An unfair comparison is sometimes made between Limerick and Tallaght and I just want to ensure that the commissioner understands. Tallaght is grouped together with the Dublin metropolitan area, but it is a city in itself. The commissioner knows the number of gardaí working in Tallaght. My first question, are there enough officers deployed there?
Other colleagues made this point, but I commend the community policing system which is a good use of man and woman power. Deputy McGrath referred to gardaí being seen. I grew up in Crumlin and have recollections of gardaí encouraging us not to play football on the road and so on. Now, however, some young people believe the only time they see a garda is when they are in trouble. That is not as it should be. Members of the force should be on the streets, encouraging people to obey the law and discouraging young people from drinking or hanging around public parks. We should be able to walk our parks in safety.
I went for a walk some time ago during which I crossed the bridge from the Square into Old Bawn Park. Two very nice young gardaí asked me where I was going. When I said I was going for a walk they implied that it might not be safe to do so on my own. We need to be safe in our communities.
Members have made the point that the community needs to trust the gardaí, be comfortable with them and to feel safe in their homes and on the streets. I commend the work the commissioner is doing. It is not easy and he has to take criticism, but it is important that we, as public representatives, strongly support the work of the Garda and I am happy to do so. I wish the commissioner a happy Christmas.
I join other members in welcoming the commissioner and his fellow officers. I wish to address the issue of missing persons. Jo Jo Dollard went missing in my constituency. Nothing has really happened since then, no body or person has been found and there is deep concern out there. These people are not often spoken about. There is little comment on this issue in terms of the Garda annual reports, but there are unsolved cases and quite a number of families have been touched by the fact that one of their loved ones has gone missing.
Over the years I have tabled a number of parliamentary questions to the Minister, in respect of which I have received the usual answer, namely, that it is for the commissioner to decide how to proceed in relation to the type of cases to which I refer. It is as if the buck was being passed from the Minister's office to the commissioner's office. As a result, no real comfort is being extended to families that are still trying to deal with the fact that one of their loved ones went missing.
Let us consider the incident at Soham in the UK and what was revealed on Sky television each day. There were press briefings and an acknowledgement from senior officers of the force in Soham that they did not have all the skills required. They reached beyond the members of their own force to 11 other agencies and jurisdictions to draw in the necessary expertise to bring the case to a close. They also worked in partnership with the local community and the media. It was a combination of all of this that told a story to us and finally led to a conclusion to that case.
I ask the commissioner to make a comparison between that incident in Soham and how it was handled and the cases of the missing persons in this country. Such cases are hardly even spoken about, to the point where a public representative cannot obtain a directly reply from the Department and is referred instead to the commissioner. I ask the commissioner to state his understanding of what happened in Soham in comparison to what happens here. There is no comparison. I do not want to mention specific cases, but there are obvious ones, such as that of Jo Jo Dollard, which has attracted a lot of media attention. I do not remember anything happening in that case similar to what happened in Soham.
We have travelled a long distance since 1997 and seen what happened in Soham, so we could we not revisit those cases and investigate them using the Soham inquiry as a model? Could the commissioner not reach out to forces beyond his own and perhaps invite someone from the Soham inquiry who has gone through the experience of having to track down someone who killed two children and can use that experience and skill in this country in the search for all missing persons? Can we not return to the Jo Jo Dollard case in a way other than leaving it to Operation Trace? Was that not merely an exercise in bureaucracy, where the Garda would take the file out - and I do not know this, I am just asking - explore the information contained therein and possibly add some new information, but certainly not bring the case to a close?
In view of the fact that this trauma is still being experienced by families, does the commissioner not think it is time to reach beyond this jurisdiction and bring in people from outside to assist him - this is no reflection upon the Garda - in what he is doing? Is it not time to establish a missing persons unit with properly qualified and experienced people from either the US or the UK to bolster the experience the Garda already have in relation to these cases? Is it not unusual that the family of a missing person would decide that there is so much inaction in these cases that they travel to the UK or the US to determine what units are in existence there and bring back relevant information about them in order to try to influence the commissioner and the Garda to establish such a unit here? Is it not odd that a family would consider it necessary to do that when all of us know that through a phone call somebody in the UK or the US could help?
In Soham, helicopters that had the technology to pick up where a body might be buried were used. Was that technology used here in any of the cases? Was it used in the Jo Jo Dollard case? Was all the land in the area in which she went missing searched or is the family working on a false assumption that it was not? Would that technology help us now to bring the sorrow of the families in these cases to a close? There has been no closure. The erection of a monument in Kilkenny Castle to those who have gone missing serves as a centre where families can gather to express their grief and bring closure to their own thoughts. All of the families asked that the monument would not be a list of dead people but of families who had hope of finding their loved one at some stage or other. Each family criticised the Garda for not engaging with them on a constant basis and for falling down in some way on their case. They base that criticism on their experience of watching the story of Soham unfold on television. I would like the commissioner to address those questions and to say if he thinks there is a need for a special unit to deal with missing persons. Who makes the call on that?
This committee deals not only with justice but also with women's rights. In the human resource management section of the report, under the medium term community action programme on equal opportunities for women and men, the Garda Síochána was granted approval from the European Commission to undertake a project entitled Police Officers Achieving a Balance. It produced tangible results in the form of a manual of best practice, a framework policy document and a one-hour training aid.
In regard to the strength of the Garda, there are two deputy commissioners, ten assistant commissioners, 47 chief superintendents, 170 superintendents and 289 inspectors. How many of these are women?
I will focus on just one of the headline offences - sexual offences. As the commissioner himself said, these offences increased by 900. The actual increase was from 1,070 to 1,939 - an increase of 81.2%. That is a significant increase and shows there is a serious problem. The detection rate went down from 76% to 71%. In a leaving certificate examination a drop of five percentage points would not be a problem but in regard to detection in serious sexual offences it is serious. Will the commissioner elaborate on that and explain what efforts are being made to improve those statistics?
Deputy Boyle mentioned the Private Security Services Bill. A report of the Council of the European Union, based on a draft made by Europol, states in regard to the Continuity IRA that many of the younger CIRA members are now involved in the private security industry providing security for night clubs, pubs and building sites. Some of the profits from these enterprises are diverted to the coffers of the CIRA. Will the commissioner comment on that?
The estimate mentioned in regard to training was €3.38 million yet only €2.4 million was spent. Deputy Power raised the question of CCTV where the estimated expenditure was €1.185 million and the amount reported as spent is €34,000. These figures show there is more than €1 million unspent. Can we have a comment on that?
It is not entirely satisfactory procedure to bank such a large number of questions. The questions do not get the appropriate and deserved attention. I feel the commissioner would also prefer a better forum in this respect. Perhaps we can improve that over time. Will the commissioner and his colleagues try to respond as best they can? I draw their attention to the fact that while members of this committee have absolute privilege the same privilege does not apply to them.
Before the commissioner replies I mention that Senator Tuffy, who cannot be here today, submitted some questions in regard to community policing. Could we get written replies to those questions?
Perhaps the commissioner will agree to that.
Commissioner Byrne
I will try to get through the many questions as comprehensively and as best I can.
I will deal first with the issue of community policing. It is heart-warming that communities here want more policemen and policewomen patrolling their districts. In some countries people are not anxious to see police officers in their areas so it is heartening that in every part of the country I visit there is a constant demand made for more guards on the street. That is pleasing to hear but difficult to achieve. In the past, community policing was looked upon as an adjunct to real core policing and to the regular units we had working from 6 a.m. to 2 p.m., 2 p.m. to 10 p.m. and 10 p.m. to 6 a.m. around the country. We have changed that philosophy and now look upon community policing as the core aspect of our business. It is the hub of the wheel and all other aspects of policing are now seen as spokes from that hub.
A finite number of people is available to me as a resource. It is important to realise that to have one garda on a particular post or beat on a 24 hour basis the number of gardaí required is 5.1. The multiple we use, which is lower than other police services, is 5.1 and that is what is required for a protection post in any part of the country. People should think of that when they wonder where our many policemen and policewomen are. They often seem to forget that we work a 24 hour day business, seven days a week and 365 days a year. We provide a policing service on Christmas day and every other day. When people see that the force is increased to a certain level they automatically assume that suddenly 600 or 700 people are available to go out on the street at all times. They are not.
We have 703 garda stations and mention of closure of one brings on the wrath of the people and the community. I welcome that because it means people want to see policemen and policewomen in every town. I grew up in a garda station in a rural town. People here who represent rural areas wonder why we now have only one garda in a town or village when previously there would have been a sergeant and three or four. Where I grew up in Knocknagree in north Cork there was a sergeant and three but today there is only one garda there. That situation is replicated around the country. The reason for that is that I have to deploy people to areas with the greatest need for policing. At times that can be detrimental to the law abiding people of a particular area. Deputy Hoctor asked why law abiding people should suffer and lose their sergeant or garda.
I live in a world where there is constant demand and must deploy people based on some methodology. We no longer have the luxury of saying that we always have so many gardaí in Ballina, Dunmanway, Louth or wherever but must have a method for deploying people. Gardaí are a costly resource in terms of training and finance on an ongoing basis. The budget this year for the Garda Síochána will be nearly €960 million most of which is taken up by salaries. We have developed a methodology although some of our officers disagree with it when it does not suit their particular divisions. However, we must have a soundly based system for the deployment of people.
The system we have developed is called the Garda establishment redistribution model, GERM. It is based on a number of policing variables including socio-economic factors and the minimum established strength of each district. For example, bearing in mind that we have 109 districts, if we have a 24 hour station it has to be open on a 24 hour basis and there must be a one, two or three car response available on an ongoing basis from the station. One person must remain in the station and the cars must be manned by one or two people. Other factors taken into account are the number of stations, the vehicles and the number of protection posts. We also take into account the variables of prevention of crime, investigation of crime, subversion, traffic, public order and safety of the community and so on. We then build a model which gives the output of how many people should be sent to particular areas.
Everywhere I go people look for more gardaí. My answer, which the committee may think is unfair, is from where do people want me to take them? There are three ways we can have more gardaí. We can recruit more, we can civilianise many posts or we can provide more overtime. Which is cheapest of those three is questionable. Overtime is straightforward time-and-a-half and does not involve pensions or days off but is a question of finance. Civilianisation was touched on here. I fully support the civilianisation of administrative posts within the Garda Síochána. It does not make sense to have trained members of the Garda doing jobs that civilians could do. However, civilians must have the skills necessary to do the particular job. Under the SMI we have identified 496 such positions and through negotiations with staff associations have reached a conclusion. We are working with the Government through the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform to put civilians in those positions so that I can have more gardaí on the street. This process takes time.
The Garda building programme was also touched on. It is obvious that with 703 garda stations it costs a great deal to maintain all of them. We have to prioritise and make decisions on that matter. Some stations are in terrible condition and I appreciate that gardaí continue to work from some of them. Some are old buildings and are expensive to maintain. We are developing a new unit system whereby we can put a unit in a town centre to replace the big old station. We must look at new ideas and find the best way of keeping down costs while at the same time maintaining stations for the gardaí who work in them and the community which has to use them.
Has the Garda looked at the model——
Sorry, too many questions have been asked and we have only ten minutes left. The Deputy may ask questions later if there is time. It is not fair to ask further questions now and I ask the commissioner to answer those already asked.
Commissioner Byrne
Deputy Deasy raised an interesting point in regard to the increase in crime levels over recent years. He seemed to suggest that during my stewardship crime rose on an ongoing basis from 1996. It disturbs me that he did not check the facts before he made that allegation. My commissionership started in July 1996. In 1983 the crime rate was more than 102,000. The crime rate fell from 100,000 in 1996 to 73,000 in 2000. It has increased since then by 18%. I always said that the Garda Síochána should not take all the credit for crime going down or it would have to take all the blame when it rose. It is important that the committee recognises that.
Is the commissioner comfortable with the level of crime in the country now?
Commissioner Byrne
I do not think the Deputy heard me. If the Deputy raises that question he obviously did not hear my answer to his allegation. What further question is there?
There are no further questions. This matter can be dealt with further by letter or through a future meeting.
I am sensitive to the commissioner but everyone in the country wants an answer to this question.
Commissioner Byrne
Well, if the Deputy had asked that question rather than the facetious one he did ask I could have answered it.
People want to ask one particular question. The commissioner has been in the post for six years. Crime is getting out of control in the country and I want to know what is being done about it.
Can we please have an answer to the question now?
Commissioner Byrne
The Deputy is not talking to a politician.
I am used to being fobbed off by politicians.
Commissioner Byrne
I will answer the questions I was asked originally. If the Deputy has further questions it is up to the Chairman and not to me whether I should deal with them. I want to clarify the situation in relation to the question the Deputy asked and this was the information at the time.
There is no point in——
We will go on to the next question. Deputy Costello's question was next.
Commissioner Byrne
Deputy Costello requested that this group should visit the Garda college. We would be pleased to host the group. It is important for people to see the curriculum and facilities in the Garda college which has been visited by many people from outside the country. The Deputy asked about the number and deployment of gardaí. The number is finite. I am preparing to reach the sanctioned target of 12,200 but it will take at least 18 months for us to achieve that. At the moment we have 11,900.
Organised crime at home and abroad has been a major problem for some time. We cannot eliminate crime completely from society but we must play our part in ensuring that the police service does what is required to tackle it. Organised crime is no longer fully based in this country. The Garda Síochána, working with the Criminal Assets Bureau, whose head is a chief superintendent and reports to me, has had some success in that area. Some of the people co-ordinating and manipulating organised crime live outside the country. We are working with security services and law enforcement agencies in other countries to do what is necessary to bring these people to justice. This involves a great deal of interaction, communication and liaison. We have liaison officers employed full time in a number of countries to bring these people to justice. With people living abroad, a good deal of interaction, communication and liaison is required. We have liaison officers in a number of countries employed full-time to deal with this type of crime.
The question of CAB's existing powers was raised by Deputy Costello. It is an issue I examined recently with some of my officers and I spoke to the chief superintendent of the Criminal Assets Bureau last week. We are currently in discussions with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform on whether there are adequate powers in place to deal with other types of offences such as corruption offences. It is thought that perhaps there are sufficient powers in place, but I could not give the Deputy a definite answer on that yet. That issue is being currently examined.
The question of discipline in the Garda Síochána is covered by the Garda Síochána disciplinary regulations. The operation of the system of discipline emanates from the HRM section in Garda headquarters. The powers of the commissioner are devolved down to chief superintendents in respect of divisions to ensure that disciplinary issues are dealt with on a local basis.
Overtime is a matter for the Garda Commissioner in terms of its distribution. We strive at all times to ensure we get the best value for the overtime that is made available to us in the sense that it is our approach at all times to utilise overtime for dealing with operational issues and not for administrative purposes. In that way we get the best value for money. A number of the operations we run, particularly in the early hours of the morning, such as Operation Encounter are supported by a certain overtime regime. With the amount of money available this coming year, we will have to be strict on this expenditure. This issue has been devolved down to chief superintendents and superintendents to ensure that in the running of their divisions and districts they are at all times conscious of what is available for expenditure.
The issue of extra-curricular activities by members of the Garda Síochána - we can call it double-jobbing or off duty activity - was raised by a number of members. In its regulations, the Garda Síochána has a number of prohibitive spare time activities. The issue of gardaí being involved in security duties or in security companies was mentioned. Such activity would be in complete breach of the regulations and, as such, would be dealt with in line with the disciplinary regulations. I am not sure this is a major problem at this time, but I assure the committee that if any information in this regard is brought to our notice it will be dealt with fairly expeditiously.
We dealt with a number of such cases in the past by means of a caution and in one case I required a member of the Garda Síochána to resign. I had no difficulty in doing that. If this is an issue, somebody must bring such activity to our notice in order that we can deal with the individuals concerned. We will not stand back from or fear dealing with this issue in so far as our members are concerned. I am not so sure that such security activities are a major problem at this time. The Chairman touched on the issue of security in relation to a particular parliamentary organisation.
Commissioner Byrne
Yes, the CIRA.
Is that a parliamentary or a paramilitary organisation? The distinction can be blurred around here.
Commissioner Byrne
It is a paramilitary organisation. We have had difficulties with some people attached to particular organisations being involved in that type of business. I am not sure if one particular case which is before the courts, the details of which I cannot go into, has been dealt with but I assure the committee that we have made a number of strides in that area not only in relation to the security business but in relation to the extortion of businessmen by certain people. We are aware of this issue. It would not be in this report unless we were aware of it. We have been dealing with this issue for some time and I do not believe it will be a problem in the future.
The issue of the new breathalyser equipment was raised by Deputy Costello. This is not causing us a problem at this time. The view reported in the newspapers appears to be that we are at a major disadvantage in relation to it, but we are not. The section concerned will come into force in May next year and we will move forward from there. While some people describe it as random breath-testing, it is not that, but it will give us more opportunities for breath-testing people rather than random breath-testing. It is at that stage we will require the extra equipment, but we do not need it now. It is not inhibiting us in any way at this time from dealing with the issue of drink driving.
Racism is an issue with which we have had to deal in recent times. We have set up a unit operating from the community relations section of the Garda Síochána to deal with racism and inter-culturalism. We have had liaison with different ethnic groups in Dublin city and other places. We have people assigned in each of the divisions as liaison officers with people. I have had people from ethnic groups in my office to discuss problems or perceived problems. We have a programme in the Garda college training our own people on this issue and we also have ongoing in-service training dealing with issues that arise in this area. This is an issue with which we have had to contend and which will be an issue for society to deal with in the future. That is how we see society developing.
National security is an issue that is always foremost in our minds. Deputy Power raised the international situation. We work on an ongoing basis with all the security services. We get briefings from the security services in America and across Europe. We all work closely together since September 11. This co-operation is emanating through the different relevant groups in the European Union. We meet people in Dublin and in the United States. Everybody is singing from the same hymn sheet at this stage. I do not envisage any particular threat to this country at this time. There are people we have to monitor on an ongoing basis because of their relationship with particular organisations. The committee can be assured that these people are adequately monitored at this time. We have units dedicated to that and due to developments in other paramilitary areas we were able to divert people away from those areas to this type of operation. We have that matter in hand and we work closely with the authorities in London. With the common travel back areas and travel back and forth, this is an area of which we are conscious. We brief the Government on a regular basis on anything on which it requires briefing.
The development of CCTV is a tremendous help to us. I called in to Deputy Commissioner Conroy in Pearse Street the other day to study what is happening in the city and to get a feel for what is happening in terms of traffic and other areas. CCTV works extremely well and is cost effective. Some people say the impact of its installation in an area merely moves crime to another area. There is a little bit of that, but overall the system is extremely beneficial. It is sobering to look at some of the footage we have in regard to public order particularly in this city and other places. The wanton behaviour of some people in terms of how they treat their fellow citizens on film footage I have seen is very disturbing. We had an incident of such behaviour in the case of a murder in O'Connell Street in which non-nationals were involved and knives were used. We caught all that on screen, which was tremendously helpful in the investigation.
I am a great believer in CCTV and in its expansion. I note the locations where this system is currently being implemented, Limerick being one of them. We must have a consultative process in this regard, not one such as that which applies to planning applications. There is a need for a process to ensure that what we are doing is accepted by the community, the local authorities and everybody else concerned. We are moving forward with the implementation of this system in Limerick, Galway, Bray, Dún Laoghaire, Dundalk and Finglas and we are working on a number of other locations which we have in mind for its implementation down the line. I cannot give an exact date. If I did and could not implement it, you would come back to me and say that I gave an exact date. I will not do that, because I do not know. However, it is our first priority in relation to CCTV.
In regard to the traffic corps countrywide, there will be a different approach. While there are traffic units in each of the divisions, the personnel can be absorbed into other duties such as security duties, bringing people here and there and so on. We will follow a particular line and dedicate certain groups to full-time operations dealing with traffic. While I am conscious of the Government's policy, we will work with this, however it emanates at the end of the day. We are taking a much more focused approach to traffic.
The question of the retirement age has been raised by a number of members. It has been stated 57 years is a relatively young age at which to retire. When I was assistant commissioner in HRM, I had a major problem with the age profile of the Garda Síochána which was too high. We had to bring it down. We have achieved this to a large extent in recent years. With the increase in the numbers passing through the Garda college out onto the street we have many young people, particularly in the city centre, Store Street, Pearse Street and places like that, because obviously we put young people at the coalface of policing. About ten years ago when I was in New York, the Commissioner there informed me that the most senior police officer had only six years service. I thought that was tremendous. In some stations in Dublin the senior garda has about five and a half or six years service. It is important also to keep a balance between senior and junior gardaí to ensure best practice is followed and that there is a steady hand on the tiller, something we have lost sight of. If memory serves me right, overall the age profile has come down to 38 years, but that is getting away from the point.
I am sorry to interrupt, but there is a vote in the Dáil on the Order of Business. Unfortunately, we will not be able to return. There are a number of questions you have not got around to answering which is most unfortunate. However, there are members who would like answers. Would it be possible for you to send us replies in writing to all of the unanswered questions?
Commissioner Byrne
That is no problem.
Would you agree to return to us some time in the new year?
Commissioner Byrne
Yes.
I thank the Garda Commissioner's team for attending today's meeting. We have covered a lot of ground. Unfortunately, we did not cover everything. We look forward to our next meeting with you and wish you a very happy Christmas.
The Joint Committee went into private session at 4. 40 p.m. and adjourned at 4.45 p.m.
The Joint Committee met at 5.45 p.m.
Members Present:
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*In the absence of Senator T. Kett.
In attendance: Deputy J. Bruton.