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JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN’S RIGHTS debate -
Wednesday, 29 Jan 2003

Vol. 1 No. 10

Private Security Services Bill 2001: Presentation by Security Federation of Ireland.

I extend a warm welcome to the representatives of Security Federation of Ireland and Mr. Kevin McMahon of SIPTU. The purpose of today's meeting is to discuss the contents of the Private Security Services Bill 2001. The Select Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights will take Committee Stage of this Bill shortly. We are delighted you have accepted our invitation to discuss the background of the Bill and its contents from your perspective. I hope you will be prepared to answer any questions members of the committee might have.

I ask each of you to introduce yourselves and state the capacity in which you appear.

Mr. Ray Flanagan

Thank you for inviting us here today. I represent the Security Federation of Ireland, which is the umbrella body for the security industry in Ireland, speaking on behalf of the Security Institute of Ireland, the National Union of Security Employers, the Alarm Association of Ireland, the independent alarm security companies, the Locksmith Association and the Irish Security Industry Association. Joining us today we have a representative from SIPTU. The other members of the delegation might like to introduce themselves.

Mr. Bill Brown

I am chairman of the National Union of Security Employers. I was involved in the Government consultative group initially. I also sit on the joint labour committee that deals with minimum terms and conditions of employment, opposite Mr. McMahon. I am also the employer representative at social dialogue meetings in Europe.

Mr. Ray Guinan

I am president of the Irish Security Industry Association. I represent companies in the electronic sector, the vanguarding sector, monitoring centres, manufacturers and distributors and valuables in transit.

Mr. Kevin McMahon

I am secretary of the security services branch of SIPTU. SIPTU is the main union representing employees in the security industry across all sectors. We have membership of approximately 5,000 in the private security sector, which would be around 50% of the employees working in security. I am a worker representative on the joint labour committee of the security industry and an employee representative on the European social dialogue.

You are all very welcome. I draw your attention to the fact that while members of this committee have absolute privilege, that same privilege does not apply to you in any comments you might make. I call Mr. Flanagan to begin.

Mr. Flanagan

We have made a written submission, which I assume members have.

Yes, I got a copy and have read it, as I am sure have all the members. However, please go through it to highlight any key points.

Mr. Flanagan

I will ask Mr. Brown to go through it.

Mr. Brown

I have tried to provide some background to the industry and try to put the Bill in the context of the industry. It is a sizeable industry estimated at 800 firms, 12,000 employees and an annual turnover of €250 million. It is very labour intensive and so provides high levels of employment. There is a wide spectrum of services, not just the uniformed guards, which is a large part of the industry both from an employment and turnover point of view. More value lies in some other elements including the movement of cash, the installation of electronic systems, etc.

The proposed private security authority will sit as a support mechanism that we believe the industry requires. In 1995 we came together to try to put together a series of supports to improve conditions for employees within the industry, improve the quality of service delivered by the companies involved and allow the clients, the end users, know better what they are actually buying. We sat together and designed a standard for the manned operating industry: IS 999. This is an industry led standard that was negotiated with SIPTU and was put to the National Standards Authority of Ireland as the recommended minimum standard operating procedure for the manned guarding industry. That has now been accepted.

We have IS 199 for the alarm industry, which defines precisely the technical requirements for the installation of an alarm system. Only IS 199 systems can go through the entire system and receive Garda response. IS 199 goes into IS 228 monitoring stations and gardaí are quite happy to respond to that type of alarm system. IS 228 is a 1999 standard but only came into effect fully from December 2002. It controls the type of receiving sensors for alarm systems.

Although the security sector has grown to be a major contributor to industry and the economy in general, there is very little regulation or inspection of its operations and conduct. This has led to an ever-increasing plethora of incarnations and reincarnations of companies that have no regard whatsoever for the quality of service and employment provided or the legal and moral obligations of a company operating in this field. The minimum terms and conditions of employment are flouted at a certain level within the industry. In the larger companies, and certainly in unionised companies, there is full compliance. We have had some difficulty in achieving inspections from the Department responsible for labour issues, due to difficulty in identifying some of the security companies involved. It is difficult to investigate those for which there is only a mobile telephone number or somebody's private address.

The net effect is a reduction in the potential value of the industry. The end users are losing money because they have systems which may be inappropriate or poorly installed. The State is losing substantial sums in revenue and that situation is getting worse. With the downturn in the economy, the anecdotal evidence is that many companies are reducing the quality of what they regard as the required level of security and are doing so at a lower price. The biggest problem, by far, is in the State and semi-State sector. We have anecdotal evidence of contracts being awarded at ridiculously low prices. As a result, not only is there a loss of business and income to respectable companies operating to IS 228, IS 199 and IS 999, but the gateway is opened for new companies to spring up and gain a foothold in the industry. By representing themselves as working for State and semi-State bodies, they gain access to other sectors of the security industry.

For individual employees with low pay, low morale and poor working conditions, there is the even more serious risk of loss of life. A number of incidents investigated by the Health and Safety Authority have involved loss of life due to inappropriate working conditions, on which Kevin McMahon may comment further, whereby the regard given to security personnel on site is minimal in terms of accommodation and equipment required to do the job correctly.

We have tried to deal with the low pay aspect through the formation of the joint labour committee and the employment regulation order. Publication of the first such order was followed by pay increases of 20% to 25% and three subsequent orders resulted in 8% increases. The next order is due on 1 September. In the manned guarding sector, wages represent 80% of costs and any increase in wages is passed on directly to the client. A further 8% increase, on top of previous increases and a downturn in the economy, will result in loss of clients. Unless we have the ability to clearly identify those in the industry who are trying to provide services, there will be a real difficulty. In my own company, I have lost business. Clients have just disappeared and that business has not transferred within the regular industry but has gone to companies that did not exist a year ago.

In the document circulated to the committee, I have outlined the four steps we took in an effort to support the industry. First was the production of standards, industry-led and certified by the NSAI. The second element was the further design and delivery of training courses, some of which were funded through the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment to the amount of €120,000 in the last three years. We have brought in a minimum training standard at European level, based primarily on acceptance of the Irish submission. The third element was the formation of a JLC. The fourth is the formation of the Private Security Authority and the licensing of all those providing services, whether as individuals or companies. In reality, without this fourth element the other three become millstones because they all cost money, which is reflected in price increases. That makes it more attractive for other companies to come in and for clients to switch to them. On my reckoning, on the basis of anecdotal evidence from the bigger companies, some 20% of business has slipped away to companies that did not exist a year ago.

I will be glad to answer any questions.

Thank you, Mr. Brown. Who wishes to speak next?

Mr. Flanagan

Kevin McMahon of SIPTU will comment from the trade union perspective.

Mr. McMahon

There is a very active social dialogue within the security industry. I mention this because it might not be apparent from the Second Stage debate on the Private Security Services Bill 2001. This social dialogue takes place at European level in this global industry. In the context of EU integration, state security issues and the question of criminality in the security industry are of major concern. The social dialogue to which I referred is also replicated at national level. I have brought some documentation in that regard which I will leave with the committee for consideration.

The core issue is that self regulation in the security industry has failed at European level and at national level in Ireland, notwithstanding the best efforts of reputable employers and the union. We have been constantly confronted with rogue or cowboy employers who have been free to enter the industry without any constraints whatsoever, passing themselves off as security companies. In the process, they have undermined legitimate contracts and placed client customers' property and valuables at risk, in the absence of proper vetting and training of staff employed in those companies. The case has been well established for regulation, both for security and issues of public interest, including concerns with regard to criminality and associated problems. There are many examples of security companies being set up as a front for various illegal activities.

On the matter of regulation we have set out, through the consultative group, what we believe is needed. To a large extent, the Bill reflects that. As social partners in the industry, we view it as an enabling Bill. In an ideal situation, from the perspective of the trade unions and perhaps some sectors of the industry, there may be scope for strengthening the Bill. However, the industry has been seeking regulation for a very long time. We would be content with the current regulation as a base on which we could build. We see the detail, with regard to regulation, being the function of the authority as it was established, and we see ourselves having an input and a role in that. We would encourage Members of the committee and of Dáil Éireann to proceed with the enactment of this legislation at the earliest possible time so that we can ensure the industry can have better standards, become more professional, gain the confidence of the public and public representatives, and so that it has the capacity to provide a private security service.

What is the normal hourly rate of pay for a security officer?

Mr. Brown

Do you mean the minimum?

No, the normal rate.

Mr. McMahon

I will give an average figure. Static guarding is the largest area of activity while the cash in transit sector is more specialised. The basic rate for static guarding, taking into account added payments, is about €9 per hour. There are good and bad payers but that would be the average, in contrast to the average industrial rate.

If 20% is added to that, a figure of €11.25 is the charge that the industry would need to make. What percentage of the turnover is wages? Would you need to charge €11.25 per hour to be able to pay your employees €9?

Mr. Brown

That is correct in that it deals with pay, but it does not deal with the percentage requirements with regard to holiday pay, insurance etc.

So it is €11.25 plus another quarter which gives us €14. What rate is charged for contracts in the State and semi-State sector?

Mr. Brown

I have not had the opportunity to check it because I have been away for a few days. Anecdotally, I have heard that contracts are moving at €11.50 but I believe a contract recently moved at a figure as low as €8.50.

So €11.50 would not cover the PRSI employer's contribution, holiday pay or overheads.

Mr. Brown

No, nor insurance.

It is down as low as €9.

Mr. Brown

The price quoted to me was €8.50. I could verify that in the next few days.

Do the State and semi-State bodies that give out these contracts insist on an up-to-date tax clearance certificate from the body that gets the contract?

Mr. Brown

They look for a tax clearance certificate. A secure best value document was put together at European level for the use specifically of State and semi-State organisations, to allow them to put weightings on the tenders they receive, price, wages, conditions of employment etc. That is totally ignored at the moment by the State and semi-State organisations, and that includes European organisations operating in Ireland.

Do they get a tax clearance certificate from the successful contractor?

Mr. Brown

I assume they do. Any State or semi-State body that we worked for would have insisted on a tax clearance certificate on an annual basis.

Does that imply that the wages paid in some of these firms are scandalously low?

Mr. McMahon

Yes, and they undermine rates of pay in legitimate companies and the potential to improve rates of pay to attract better trained and educated people into the industry.

Mr. Brown

How easy it is to get a tax clearance certificate if a company is only setting up in business? It must be relatively easy if one's tax affairs are in order from a PAYE perspective. If I set up a business tomorrow to tender for contracts in the semi-State sector, and I have to provide details on myself and other directors to achieve a tax clearance certificate, I do not have a company record or a tax base for the new company that has just been formed. Therefore, I assume they are easy to get for people who are new to the industry.

Surely the directors would have to have a clean record.

Mr. Brown

They could well do, as many of them would simply be coming from jobs.

I welcome the delegation. It is recognised that there is need for regulation and we are all anxious to see this legislation on the Statute Book as quickly as possible. The line of questioning from the Chairman reflects certain concerns with regard to the manner in which the industry operates. It would seem that it would not be possible to pay the minimum wage from any contract at €8.50 and it should be obvious that a contract like that would be invalid unless it could be shown how the minimum wage, which is the legal wage, would be paid. These are matters we can explore.

I am delighted that, since 1995, the industry has put in place a programme to develop standards, training and unionisation, which is most welcome. What is now required, above all, is to put in place two other elements - licensing and the authority to monitor companies. With regard to the employment figure of 12,500 which was given, I recall that figure was mentioned some years ago also. To what extent are figures being pulled out of a hat and how much of a guestimate are these figures? In the context of the black economy——

Does the Deputy want to follow up and get an answer to that?

I will leave it entirely in the hands of the Chairman.

Are some of these figures being pulled out a hat?

Mr. Brown

We did an exercise at the time of the Government consulting group which quoted 10,000 as the employment level. The figures are relatively poor guesstimates. One of the difficulties is that we cannot identify the numbers of people employed. We can take the level of employment in companies we are aware of, and the prices charged, to estimate what those companies deal with, and we can look at the percentage they hold of the entire security industry. That is how we came up with the figure, but it is still a guesstimate.

Mr. Flanagan

On the electronic side, I can give some idea of related figures. For example, alarm companies meeting the current required standard IS 199 are certified under a scheme run by the National Standards Authority. Its latest figures, published just two weeks ago, indicated that 320 companies have been certified so far. However, when we surveyed Golden Pages advertisements, it was found that almost 600 companies were stated to be in business in various parts of the country. If one-man-band operations are included, there may be another 300, so as many as 900 alarm companies may be in operation, of which only one third are certified. We can only assume that the black economy is thriving in this respect.

I thank Mr. Brown and Mr. Flanagan for their remarks. There is a massive need for statutory regulation and certification if two thirds of the companies in the market are not registered. I want to confine my remarks to the legislation, which is why we are here. I take on board everything said by the Security Federation of Ireland as the Bill is essentially about licensing and the private security authority and I wish to examine whether or not we can improve some aspects of it.

One of the most worrying developments in relation to licensing in recent times was the change in the taxi industry since it was deregulated. A huge amount of violence and crime seems to be perpetrated in an industry which did not seem to attract such problems in the past. Many undesirable persons now seem to be involved. I wonder how the SFI feels about the possibility of those entering the security industry being vetted by the Garda? Should a process be established so that none of the 12,500 people involved in the industry can be licensed without Garda approval? There is no doubt that many shady and unregistered companies are operating in this sector. Does the SFI agree that they should be vetted as an integral part of the legislation?

As most of the activity to which we are referring, including the work of security guards and bouncers, is conducted in public, those involved have a great deal of contact with the public. Is there an argument that those on the doors of nightclubs and public houses, for example, should wear uniforms and should be capable of being identified, for example by wearing name tags? Perhaps they should wear identification numbers similar to those worn by gardaí, to be displayed at all times rather then being produced on request. Does the SFI agree that it should be part and parcel of the dress code of security personnel?

Does Deputy Costello agree that we should seek answers to those questions first? I will give the Deputy another chance to contribute before I call Deputy Paul McGrath. Perhaps Mr. Brown will speak about vetting, uniforms and identification.

Mr. Brown

Every individual in every sector of the industry, including security companies, should be vetted by the Garda Síochána before receiving a licence. The range of parameters to be used when deciding to award a licence is a different matter and should be considered with other concerns, including the right to work and EU regulations, in mind. The rehabilitation of offenders, for example, is a major concern in the United Kingdom and criminal records die after a certain amount of time has passed. We would also support the wearing of some form of identification, as it is important that all workers in the industry are easily identifiable. We need to think carefully about the introduction of uniforms, however, as they may lead to confusion for foreigners. In France and Spain, for example, there are many levels of police and it can be hard to understand the roles and duties of each uniformed officer. It is important that any uniform is easily identifiable to those coming to this country so that they can tell the difference between private and public security personnel.

May I ask one last question about a matter specific to the legislation? It seems that a great deal of the violence that takes place could be avoided if there was a mandatory requirement for CCTV systems to be provided where certain activities, such as the consumption of alcohol, take place late at night. It is important that such cameras would be visible to people in the premises and that footage of what takes place would be made available to the authorities. How would the SFI feel about mandatory filming with CCTV cameras of certain places where the security profession is involved, as part and parcel of the overall security process?

Mr. Flanagan

CCTV systems should be used in certain circumstances, particularly in places like nightclubs where the public may face danger. I saw figures some years ago which suggested the crime rate in parts of the UK decreased from 71% to 51% as a result of the use of CCTV. One of the major benefits of such systems is that it prevents crime - it does not just move the problem elsewhere. CCTV plays an enormous role in the capture of criminals as it does not lie - it sees exactly what takes place and remembers it.

Some of the members of the SFI would have a vested interest in the use of CCTV systems.

Mr. Flanagan

That is true.

Mr. Brown

None of us represents door supervisors. There can be problems when CCTV systems are installed under the control of nightclub owners. When the Government in the UK allocated £250,000 towards the installation of CCTV systems, there were no standard procedures to be followed in relation to recording, installation and the manning of the systems. Although such matters need to be examined, CCTV is a good idea.

I apologise for being slightly late for this meeting. I welcome the representatives of the SFI. I am pleased with Mr. Flanagan's remarks in relation to CCTV cameras and the effect they may have. When awarding licences to nightclubs, judges should have the power to stipulate that CCTV cameras be provided inside and outside venues. As Mr. Brown said, issues relating to the control of cameras and access to recorded material need to be addressed. For how long should the videotapes be stored? We should encourage the Minister to introduce legislation in this area. Fast food outlets should be the subject of similar provisions as, along with nightclubs, they seem to attract a great deal of problems at night.

I wish to ask about two issues raised earlier. Deputy Costello mentioned the black economy and the Chairman asked about rates of pay in the sector. I am interested in the figure of €40 million in wages that was mentioned earlier, as well as the fact that there are 10,000 or 12,000 employees in the industry. If one does one's mathematics, based on a figure of 10,000 employees, one will find that employees receive wages of €40,000 per year, on average. That figure does not match the figure given to us by Mr. McMahon of a typical payment of €9 per hour, unless security personnel are working phenomenal hours. The figures we are being given need to stack up a little better.

Mr. McMahon said that they are indicative, rather than exact.

I was interested in the figure of €40 million in terms of wages, PAYE, etc. Is the SFI satisfied that this Bill, if it goes through in its present form, will have the desired effect? To what extent will people be able to operate outside the law? Could I, as the owner of a number of nightclubs, provide my own security without having to register and comply with the checks and balances built into this legislation? Will we see many people providing security at nightclub doors, building sites and other sites who operate individually and outside of this legislation? Is the legislation watertight enough to catch everybody working within the security sector or does it need to be strengthened? Section 34 strikes me as being watery in terms of how people must register and their obligations.

Mr. McMahon

The legislation is enabling rather than prescriptive which means its provisions comprise a framework for effective regulation. Effective regulation, however, will depend on the detailed regulations which deal with training. If you want professionalism in security, you must provide for adequate training, but at the moment there are no such requirements in the industry. Regulations dealing with vetting must be stringent and a balance must be struck between the constitutional right to work and assurances that those who work in the industry are fit and suitable persons. The unions sought an amendment to provide for a requirement to satisfy certain criteria in terms of the guarding standard before a company could receive a licence. We sought compliance with the Joint Labour Committee employment regulation orders which not only cover pay, but conditions of employment such as health and safety which are very important for the industry, employees, customers and the public.

If the legislation is to have teeth, detailed regulations must be issued as quickly as possible. Fortunately, we have developed many of the requirements and a standard which, therefore, does not have to be invented. There are detailed provisions in terms of what standards should be met operationally and we have produced a manual at European level which has become the basis for minimum training in Ireland.

Will much of this flow from the authority which is to be formed, rather than from the legislation? We are talking about a timeframe.

Mr. McMahon

It will come from the authority. There is no other way to provide for these matters realistically.

There will be a lead time of two or three years.

Mr. McMahon

We hope it will be far quicker. The material for the regulations is there in relation to training and standards which means there should not be a difficulty. The main problems of compliance with legislation have to do with policing and enforcement. We have an employment regulation order which is ignored in certain respects despite a high degree of compliance otherwise. The statutory body responsible for enforcement, the labour inspectorate, lacks the capacity to properly police and enforce its provisions.

I ask Mr. Flanagan to answer Deputy McGrath's question with regard to whether these companies can set up.

Mr. Flanagan

Deputy McGrath may not be aware that there are European standards in the making with regard to closed circuit television, some of which have already been introduced. There is no need for a Minister to reinvent the wheel. Other standards are being introduced at that level on access control systems and a new standard for intruder alarm systems comes into effect later this year.

Mr. Brown

Regarding how tight we feel the legislation is, there are three key elements which are adequately dealt with. One is the fact that all parties must be licensed, employees as well as companies. I say this on the basis of positive feedback in terms of European legislation. The second is the description of a guard as an employee whose substantive duty is to provide security to a property. This means you will not have a scenario in a shop where someone who is on the door all day can be described by the manager as a stockroom boy who does the door now and then. The legislation prevents that. If an employee's substantial duties are to secure the property, he is a security guard and must, therefore, be licensed. The third element is that it will be an offence to use an unlicensed security guard or unlicensed security service provider. These three elements are the main strengths of the Bill.

The only question not responded to concerned the average wages.

Mr. McMahon

I gave a basic figure of €9. As pay rates are low in the security industry, it must be borne in mind that astronomical hours are worked in breach of legislation. Consequently, companies who offer ridiculously low rates of pay provide long hours and there is a gross rate which, though it might meet the average wage, is earned by working double the hours required in other industries. That is exploitation by rogue employers who provide a composite rate which would be below the employment regulation order if one worked only 40 hours or even 48 hours. There is no way that working 70 hours can comply with the minimum entitlements provided under the employment regulation order.

I welcome the delegation which I thank for its presentation on the Bill. I value the contribution of the Security Federation of Ireland to society. It represents 12,000 employees and 800 firms which are directly involved in the security industry contributing to the economy to the tune of €250 million. In particular, I welcome Mr. McMahon and the trade union involvement which is very important. What percentage of the 12,000 employees in the private security industry are members of trade unions?

Mr. McMahon

Approximately 50% in some sectors. In the cash and transit sector the figure is 100%. There is a greater percentage of unionisation in the greater Dublin area than in the rest of the country.

There is a connection between union membership and the debate about training and quality of service. A contribution from registered people such as those in a trade union will improve the quality of service. Most people who are involved in providing these services are decent and honest. There is a minority which is completely out of control and while I have witnessed them, I have seen quality door people who deliver a good service. The involvement of the trade union movement in the security industry would increase standards and generate revenue for the State through additional taxation.

On the issue of the urgent need for new types of training in the security industry, the changes in society over the past six or seven years and the high level of violence outside clubs, pubs and discos, most of which is alcohol or drug related, will require radical new ideas to address the question of public safety and security. I have listened to my constituents describe horrific incidents outside pubs and clubs in which they were involved. Do the witnesses have any new ideas on training which would raise standards to the highest European and international levels?

Mr. McManus has already discussed this issue, to which we will return.

I welcome the representatives of the SFI and SIPTU. The Bill is welcome. Does the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment still contribute to the costs of training? Training is essential, particularly for those who work in nightclubs and public houses. What percentage of the staff currently working in the security industry has received training? Is it obligatory for employees in the sector?

I wish to be associated with the warm welcome extended to our guests. During my speech on the Bill in the Dáil I welcomed it while expressing certain reservations about it. Generally speaking, however, I support what the industry is trying to achieve. It is important that members have an opportunity to hear the views of the industry. In Tallaght, in the Dublin South West constituency I represent, there are a number of premises with a high level of security, no more, however, than similar premises in other towns. I have seen professionals at work in The Square, the hospital and the council and I value their work.

I have received many representations from people working in security companies who find they are hassled as a result of the nature of their work and the interventions they make. Do members of the federation labour under this problem, by which other people find out where they live and go after them?

It is important we understand the challenge facing the industry in terms of its image. I happened to be at the Savoy Cinema in Deputy Costello's constituency a few weeks ago, at which certain little known film personalities were protected by greater numbers of security personnel than one would have seen around Bill Clinton when he was President of the United States. I accept this offers good employment to the persons in question, but I am concerned about the image it creates and the image frequently portrayed in the media, particularly the soap operas. Although I do not wish to point the finger at the industry, it is important we accept, in partnership, that this is how the industry is viewed.

The question has already been asked as to where security staff come from. I often say I was not born a politician but I became one. If my poor parents were alive today, they would be fascinated by what I am doing. I remember about three years ago the Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs - this is not a criticism - in, I presume, an attempt to address the unemployment figures and give people a chance introduced a training drive in which people were brought to specialist companies to be trained as security personnel. How does one find staff for such a system? Which type of person makes the best security employee? At a time when the industry is facing challenges, it is important to clarify this point.

I welcome the opportunity to speak and listen to groups. My door is open if the delegation wishes to make representations or attempt to influence our view of the Bill.

Was every member of the committee invited to the Savoy or just Deputy O'Connor?

I, too, wish to be associated with the welcome extended to our guests today. I support the Bill. As crime advances and becomes more sophisticated, we must have appropriate security measures in place to deal with it. Will the Bill benefit small companies and sole traders supporting a family or will the only beneficiaries be big businesses? In raising this question, I am not condoning the black economy in this sector, which is small. Many small companies currently operate efficiently in the security business. Does the Bill contain provisions which would discourage them? As a member of the county enterprise board in north Tipperary, I strongly support small businesses. I hope the Bill will provide support not only for the bigger businesses which provide significant employment, but also for smaller enterprises.

On the rights of employees, I recently spoke to a retailer who has an efficient security system on his premises which allows a security company to monitor his CCTV system. It then provides him with a written briefing on irregular movements among his employees. This type of system is commonplace. Is the retail employer always obliged to inform his employees that a CCTV system is in operation which monitors their movements? What are the rights of individuals in this regard? Perhaps Mr. McMahon could answer that.

It is an interesting question.

One of the issues raised on Second Stage was the question of double jobbing in the security industry, particular among the members of the security forces, namely, the Garda, the Prison Service and the Army. Are the witnesses aware of this practice? If so, what is its extent? Is it part of the black economy? The parties and the Independents would be delighted to receive amendments which the witnesses feel would improve the legislation.

Deputy Costello's reference to double jobbing reminded of an issue. I sometimes come across people working in the security industry, nice people who I would loosely describe as political activists of a certain persuasion. There are a few of them around. Is this widespread and can it be controlled?

We will hear first from Mr. Guinan, after which everybody is free to pick up on issues that he does not cover.

Mr. Guinan

In respect of training, I assure Deputy Finian McGrath that training is provided on a number of fronts. A body called the Security Institute of Ireland has been operating in the industry for 21 years. It provides training to private security personnel and has members of the Garda and the security forces on it who provide training, qualifications and so on for people. My association together with FÁS and SIPTU and the Garda have put in place a number of initiatives. One scheme that is going for many years is an electronic training scheme for alarm engineers. That FÁS traineeship is currently based in Baldoyle and it is planned to turn it into an apprenticeship.

We are constantly looking at new and innovative things. We recently introduced a FÁS sponsored and SIPTU and Garda assisted traineeship for man guarding. It provides a 13 week course during which the trainee spends two weeks training, a week on the job, followed by another two weeks training, etc. Mentoring is provided on the job by one of the senior supervisors within the sponsoring company. The course is designed to meet European standards and that is the thrust of our training. The mixture of theory and practice is an excellent way to provide such training.

The question was asked as to whether training is obligatory. Essentially it is not. Training is provided primarily in the bigger, more professional companies. Generally, the smaller the company the less training that is provided. Some companies just stick a jumper on people and put them out in a site. They are at the other end of the economy and are probably not represented by us here.

With regard to small companies, the people who are here talking on behalf of the industry all represent small to medium indigenous companies. None of the multinationals is here. We certainly hope that there is a place for the smaller company going forward. We support the Bill.

As far as CCTV is concerned, it is good practice to put a notice somewhere that says that it is in operation on the premises. I do not know if it is legal not to notify people but I commend the system. The association I represent does not have any amendments. We support the Bill and look forward to working under it. We do not believe we have anything to fear from it.

Mr. McMahon

The FÁS pilot training scheme is excellent. It is only beginning but, hopefully, when it is established it will become obligatory for the entire security industry. It is desperately needed because currently the training is inadequate or non-existent. Even with the best security companies new employees only receive about two days training and that does not equip an individual to perform the duties of a security guard.

Every day a security guard goes to work he can expect to be confronted with risks of injury or threats. Often he will be picked on simply because he is wearing a uniform by gangs or elements who will see a security guard as a soft touch in comparison to a garda.

There is a problem with double jobbing, particularly among those who do part-time work in the security industry. There are cases of soldiers who do jobs in which money is paid into their hands. The State is losing out on revenue on this undeclared income. These people usually pay tax and social insurance benefits elsewhere but not on their part-time earnings from security work. This type of activity is mainly confined to the non-reputable security operators.

Mr. Guinan

I wish to clarify something I said. I think I said we do not represent the multinationals but what I meant is that while we are not from the multinationals we do represent them as well as the small companies.

Mr. Brown

A security guard is there to protect the property of the client, which in some cases may also include the customers, as in a nightclub environment. In reality it just pushes that problem out onto the street. This is the kind of situation that is currently a problem in the UK and it has to be dealt with in other places through the Licensing Act and the better use of police resources. Maybe that could be helped by the security industry. Security guards as opposed to police, for example, are involved in the monitoring of CCTV in town centres in the UK.

I do not think there is anything in the Bill that any small company should fear, even in regard to the authority utilising the IS 999 standard for the licensing of a security company. That is designed and written specifically so it can deal with a very small operation. It has certain requirements, which are not necessarily cost related. Often it is a case of changing the approach. An employer will have to think about how to check employees and ensure they do not have accidents. Across Europe the majority of security companies employ less than 20 people and this is unlikely to change. There are particular niches into which small companies fit and a big company could not.

The last intake under the Skillnets project just simply did not fit. It has gone back to the beginning, in other words it is looking for industries that have no basic training level or requirement. We have gone beyond that to a different level. There is still a lot of self-funded training taking place under the same Skillnets project but the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment is not contributing.

With regard to an amendment to the Bill, the only one I would propose would be in regard to the selection of the authority itself. It is proposed to have two employer representatives, two employee representatives and four other ministerial appointees. I would like to see one of those being somebody with specific expertise in regard to training, preferably from the industry-led voluntary training bodies, who are involved in the industry and have been driving it for a long time.

Deputy O'Connor referred to two things that are causing me heartache, in particular the problems with South Dublin County Council.

I did not say that.

Mr. Brown

My apologies.

I did not say that. I said that I am supportive and that I have had representations from different security people who are being hassled. I do not have any problem. In fact, I am saying they are doing a great job. People are coming to them saying, "I know where you live", which I am sure is true of everywhere else and not just Tallaght.

Mr. Brown

It is one council, in particular, that we have recently had complaints about in regard to the low cost of its security purchasing. I am not very familiar with the project of the Department of Social and Family Affairs but, again, I have a small difficulty with it because there are some companies that are now entering into the open market, which were actually set up through funding by the Department. They are utilising the supports of the income coming from Government to undercut prices.

I only made the point about recruitment and asked if that was the best way to do it.

Mr. Brown

The intimidation aspect of it is a question for management and, unfortunately, quite often it means that the employee himself has to move to a different site but it is the security aspect that we have to deal with.

Recruitment has been extremely difficulty over the past few years. It may have opened up a little now with the slight downturn in the economy. It is very difficult to find employees for the industry.

In regard to the level of double jobbing it is impossible to estimate the extent of it. When licensing comes in there will be a fundamental shake-up of the door supervisory business. It will become unrecognisable.

Mr. Flanagan

As we have already said, we represent perhaps 12,000 employees in the security industry. In addition to that one has door supervisors, which comprise a further 8,000 to 10,000. In effect we are looking at an industry that is very large in size. It is certainly larger than the Garda force or the Army. It could even be as big as the two combined - we will not know until the legislation is introduced.

On the question of a one-man band starting up under the new legislation, I see no problem. There is nothing in the legislation to stop it.

It is through the authority that the industry will grow and evolve. We believe the power should be in the authority and that is what the Bill is trying to achieve. It will evolve over the years as it brings in standards right across the board for different sectors.

The comment about training was correct. Training in the private security area is fairly good. In recent years FÁS, for example, has been running a course for alarm installers. It takes place every six months and is turning out quite a few people for the industry. The course was put together in conjunction with the Security Institute of Ireland, which wrote the syllabus. Problems will arise in respect of door supervisors and their training and we will have to get our heads around them. However, we are not representing door supervisors here today.

I thank the Chairman for inviting us to attend and I thank members for their questions.

It was a very useful exchange of views on the Bill. The questions that arose very much reflect the questions that people would wish to ask. Mr. Flanagan has addressed them very well, which we appreciate very much. I thank the delegates for attending.

The joint committee went into private session and adjourned at 3.45 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 4 February 2003.

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