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JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN’S RIGHTS debate -
Tuesday, 25 Mar 2003

Vol. 1 No. 18

Probation and Welfare Service and the Irish Prisons Service: Presentations.

I extend a warm welcome to our guests who are present to discuss the work done by the probation and welfare service and the Irish Prisons Service and the points raised at the discussion held on 4 February on the National Economic and Social Forum report on the reintegration of prisoners. In the context of its agreed work programme, the joint committee is examining issues surrounding the formulation and implementation of prison and probation welfare policy. The focus today is on the work programmes of the two services, recent developments and the reintegration of prisoners. It is anticipated that the committee will continue to examine these issues and revisit the topic at regular intervals during the lifetime of the current Dáil.

I welcome the representative of the probation and welfare service, Mr. Sean Lowry, principal officer. Will he, please, introduce his colleagues?

I am accompanied by Suzanne Vella, assistant principal, and Vivian Geiran, also an assistant principal.

Also present is Mr. Sean Aylward, Director General of the Irish Prisons Service and previously with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. He has worn a lot of hats. Will he, please, introduce his colleagues?

I am happy to be here. I am accompanied by Mr. Ned Whelan, governor of Wheatfield Prison, which has a particular vocational emphasis; our director of regimes, Ms Marieva Coughlan - "regimes" is the term used in prison parlance for prisoner programmes - and deputy regimes director, Mr. Séamus Sisk.

I do not know if Wheatfield Prison is located in Dublin South Central or Dublin Mid-West.

Mr. Ned Whelan

Dublin Mid-West.

It is very close to the border. I know prisoners do not have votes, a matter about which questions were raised recently.

Mr. Whelan

There was a recent High Court case on the right to vote.

That would be interesting. The probation and welfare service has an office on Clogher Road and does a good job in my constituency and others. I will ask its representatives to start. We ran late in the Dáil due to votes. Mr. Lowry should make his presentation as complete but as brief as possible. While Members of the committee enjoy absolute privilege, the same does not apply to witnesses.

On behalf of the probation and welfare service, I am grateful to have the opportunity to address the committee. In the interests of brevity, I will stick close to my notes, a copy of which has been distributed to members.

I will take some points from the service's mission statement. Its mission is to contribute to the safety of the public by challenging prisoners in custody and the community to address their offending behaviour. Our objective is to stop or reduce offending by criminals. In that context, it is important to note that every crime prevented or career in crime brought to an end represents a significant reduction in the number of victims.

We also contribute to public safety by promoting in the courts the use of what we term evidence based community sanctions - sanctions which have been proven in this and other jurisdictions to succeed - and the use of imprisonment as a last resort. We would ideally like to see a situation where no one is sent to prison for lesser crimes without first being given the chance to address his or her criminality in the context of a community sanction. We also are engaged in developing inter-agency facilities in the community to meet the needs of offenders and foster their social inclusion. Ideally, the ultimate goal is to integrate offenders into what we call mainstream community facilities.

There are some facts about the service on page 2 of my presentation. At any given time we are involved in supervising throughout the State approximately 5,500 offenders in the community on court orders. We prepare about 7,000 pre-sanction reports, assessments and proposals to the courts as to how the court might react to the finding of guilt for an offender. We provide a service for the approximately 3,200 prisoners in the 16 prisons of the State. I have also listed the staffing breakdown of the service - 179 probation and welfare officers are deployed in the courts in 31 centres in the State while 28 officers are based in the 16 prisons. In line with what was stated in the NESF report and the comments made at the committee's last meeting, the service staff comprise a highly skilled and committed workforce in the criminal justice system.

The service warmly welcomed publication of the report and is happy to be associated with its implementation. I wish to make a distinction between the concepts of reintegrating as against integrating offenders. It might be argued that many of those with whom we deal inside and outside prison have never really been integrated into society. Therefore, we are dealing with integrating rather than reintegrating them; for one reason or another they have been largely excluded from many of the State's services. The service also works toward the integration of prisoners into the community by being part of the multidisciplinary approach to those in prison. It is also part of the co-ordination group on the integration of offenders put in place since the report was published. It is uniquely positioned in that we work inside the prisons and the community.

The report focuses on what is part of a much bigger picture. The committee will be aware that public health nurses can identify newly born children in families who will grow up in difficult circumstances and can say certain children will have problems at schoolgoing age. If they become delinquent and come into conflict with the law, they come into contact with Garda diversion schemes in what could be called the pre-crime cycle. They come into contact with our service when the courts look to us for assessment or the use of community sanctions. They come into contact with the service in children detention schools when still of schoolgoing age and the Prisons Service. They also come into contact with the rehabilitation network which our service has in place throughout the country.

Part of our work involves supervising prisoners on temporary release. We supervise approximately 70 persons serving life sentences who have been released into the community. We also offer voluntary support to those who seek our services on leaving prison.

There is a fairly widespread perception that probation supervision is a soft option. I would like to try to dispel that notion. The service is involved in the supervision of serious offenders - people convicted sometimes of serious crimes where the cases have been heard before the higher courts. These people often have substantial crime records and have served previous prison sentences. Approximately two thirds of the people with whom we work fit into the lower medium risk offenders category whose crimes involve drugs, property crime, assaults and public order offences, whereas one third might be considered to be in the high risk category. The latter would be involved in serious property crime, serious assaults against the person, sex offenders, female offenders and many addiction-related offending. If people do not comply with a court or temporary release order, we hold the offender accountable to the Prisons Service by implementing breach procedures which are in place in both instances. It is important for our credibility to be seen to do that.

On the previous occasion, Vincent Salmon from the prison education service referred to the fact that many people who do good work within prison discontinue that work when they leave prison. This is partly as a result of what I refer to as "post-release euphoria". While these people are well behaved in the prison controlled environment, and participate in therapy, education, etc., when they leave prison the freedom goes to their heads. They are sometimes treated like heroes in their communities. They celebrate and begin again to abuse alcohol, drugs and so on. This contributes to the lack of follow-up work with people leaving prison. Even though the personal and social problems of these people have been addressed to some extent in prison, many of them leave prison with problems such as homelessness, addiction, family relationship difficulties, etc. They still require the intervention of skilled people.

I remind members that probation officers are all trained social workers who have experience of working within the criminal justice system and are, therefore, placed to address these issues with offenders. Unless people leave prison with a proper plan that has been drawn up and agreed with them in advance, it is very difficult to engage them once they are on the outside. For that reason, we advocate the more extensive use of supervised temporary release orders. This enables people to be held accountable to the Prisons Service during the time they are under supervision.

I have listed some of the activity in which the probation and welfare service has been involved in meeting the requirements of the NASF report. As stated earlier, our work in the community and in prisons is multidisciplinary in nature. We have developed relationships with the partnerships. We have representation on some of them and we have participated in initiatives with them in particular parts of the country such as Wexford and north-east Dublin. We initiated and developed the host strategy team. Perhaps Vivian Geiran will speak more about that later.

Members heard about linkage on the previous occasion, another programme which has been funded and developed as an integration measure. We put in place drugs link workers, people employed with money provided through the service by the local drugs task forces. They link up with people from their areas in prison and try to ensure that when people with drug problems leave prison they are linked into the community-based services. We have also begun developing what we call our youth justice initiative. We will work with young people under the Children Act, including those in the open and secure detention schools and in community facilities such as hostels, workshops and special projects that are either in place, or will be put in place for dealing with young offenders.

The victim mediation service is an important part of helping people come to terms with the issue of integration. I have included the budget of the probation and welfare service. The part that might be of most interest is the unit costs at the bottom of the page. This gives an approximate cost for each of the different orders operated by the service.

I thank Mr. Lowry for his comprehensive presentation. If members agree, I would like to have 15 minutes of pertinent questions in respect of the probation and welfare service so that the Prisons Service can then give a presentation, followed by more general questions. I ask Members to pose pertinent questions in respect of the probation and welfare service at this point. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I welcome the representatives. I thank Mr. Lowry for the clear mission statement on behalf of the probation and welfare service.

In the past, people would have said that the probation and welfare service was the Cinderella of the Prisons Service. The number of people traditionally employed in the service has been quite low compared to the number employed for custodial purposes. I presume that there is a typographical error on the second page which refers to 207 probation and welfare offices throughout the country. I presume it means officers. The total figure comes to 411 or one seventh of the entire staff. There remains a two thirds recidivist rate, which is very high. There has been a substantial increase of 41% in prisons in five years. It is clear that the number of people being sent or returned to prison is increasing.

We should concentrate on how to reduce this number. There is an inordinately high statistic included the 2001 report, which states that 58% of people in prison are serving sentences of six months or less. Should they not be dealt with by the probation and welfare service and diverted, in one form or another, away from prison? Are the courts giving the service adequate opportunity by making sufficient community service orders? Are there alternative sanctions in the community which could properly come under the service?

The probation and welfare service has only 28 officers working in 16 prisons - fewer than two per prison. How can a prison regime be put together, of which the probation and welfare service is a central part and in which the prisoner is the focus of a prison sentence management regime, as recommended in the National Economic and Social Forum report? The report recommends that a prisoner should be directed from the moment he or she arrives in prison until he or she leaves in order that he or she has a better chance of reintegration.

What are the follow-up procedures on release? The presentation makes no mention of a connection with the local authority. Homelessness is a major part of the problems facing prisoners on release. When a person is released from prison, he or she should know where he or she will have a roof over his or her head. That would be a valuable function of the probation and welfare service.

I welcome Mr. Lowry and his colleagues and thank them for attending. I am a great supporter of the probation and welfare service which does wonderful work and is under-resourced.

When we asked for the figures for the Dublin 15 area, we learned that only one person under the age of 18 years was on the probation and welfare service's list. This is in an area which has a population of 70,000. That cannot be right. If the large number of young people who create havoc in their neighbourhoods could be brought under the umbrella of the service, they would be caught at a very young age and prevented from going on to more serious crime in later years. Does the service focus on young people from that age group or confine itself to older people? I see a huge gap.

The service is about to open an office in the Blanchardstown area. Why is there such a delay in providing a service in a community of 70,000 people?

I support Deputy Costello in emphasising the importance of ensuring prisoners about to be released have accommodation. Former prisoners who are not welcome in their homes and, therefore, homeless and liable to get into difficulties are a huge problem in the Dublin area.

The BOND project does wonderful work with ex-prisoners in the Dublin 15 area. It was attempting to provide accommodation in conjunction with the local authority but that project is not now going ahead. I am sure this is not Mr. Lowry's fault. No doubt the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform is not providing the funding. Can something be done to support the project and ensure it continues the work it is doing?

I, too, welcome the delegation. We are all agreed that prevention is better than cure. In that regard, what attempts are made to monitor prisoners? As Deputy Costello said, the large number serving short sentences indicates that their crimes are not as serious as those committed by others, with whom they come in contact. It has been my experience that people given a prison sentence for a first offence can, because of their exposure to more hardened and professional criminals, get an education in crime while in prison and graduate to more serious offences subsequently. What steps are taken to monitor the situation and prevent this happening?

What steps are being taken to reduce the level of drugs going into prisons and giving rise to serious problems for prisoners while in prison and subsequently on release?

What steps are being taken to reduce the level of suicide in prison? I know the level in society generally has increased dramatically but it has also increased among the prison population. I recently watched a television programme which showed a psychological analysis of inmates in an American prison. I was alarmed to learn that the number of psychopaths was quite high compared with the population as a whole. Are we doing research in this area? Attempts to rehabilitate are unlikely to be successful if the individuals concerned have a psychiatric affliction. What are we doing in that regard?

What level of communication is maintained with prisoners after release? When people return to the environment which may have led them into crime in the first place, should some form of sheltered accommodation be provided initially in order that people would move from prisonto a sheltered environment before beingreleased eventually into the community with full freedom?

While I notice that some of the questions are more relevant to the Irish Prisons Service than the probation and welfare service, I will not ask Mr. Aylward to answer until he has made his presentation. I ask him, if he can, to keep the questions in mind in order that they can be addressed.

Mr. Lowry, when you are answering, please do not hesitate to bring in one of your colleagues if you feel he or she would be better prepared to answer a specific question.

Returning to Deputy Costello's question, it is fair to say there has been a credibility problem over many years in relation to the effectiveness of community sanctions. The probation and welfare service has worked hard to get the message across that we are not just do-gooders, that we also are people who have specific knowledge and skills in addressing offending and the problems of offenders. We have tried to demonstrate that effective work can be done with offenders in the community.

It is obvious that custody is much more costly to the taxpayer than community sanctions. It might be argued there is a need to invest more in the provision of custodial places than in community sanctions. On the other hand, judges will say in court that they cannot use community sanctions, no matter how effective they are, if they are not in place. That makes the case for greater investment in community sanctions. Like in every other Department, one gets only a slice of the cake and we try to do our best with the money allocated. We are convinced that a greater investment in community sanctions would reap economies for the taxpayer.

There is also a more recent problem with the demand for the services. There has been a substantial increase in demand both from the courts and the Irish Prisons Service. Obviously, we would like to have an increased number of staff in both areas of our work, but we have to manage within the constraints of the finances allocated.

Mr. Vivian Geiran

I will address a number of the questions about the homeless offenders strategy team, of which I am the director. HOST, the homeless offenders strategy team, is a multi-agency initiative to alleviate and prevent homelessness among offenders and ex-offenders. It is led by the probation and welfare service and works closely with its significant partners, the Irish Prisons Service, as well as local authorities, health boards and various voluntary organisations working with the homeless.

The mission of the team is to co-ordinate, on an inter-agency basis, strategies and interventions, to minimise homelessness among offenders, both in the community and in custody, and those offenders coming out of custody. It aims to promote offender integration in the community and reduce re-offending and promote public safety.

Following on from this, the agency's three main aims are to develop and co-ordinate the implementation of an integrated strategy on offender accommodation. By that, I mean linking homeless offenders strategy with general homeless strategies, specifically the integrated strategy and the preventive strategy. Second, to improve social inclusion of offenders by facilitating access to the full range of mainstream services, thereby contributing in reduced re-offending and improved public safety. In addition to this, our specific brief is not simply to be an accommodation provider. The agency aims to add value to existing services where there are specific responsibilities for providing services to homeless people and to ensure the full range of services are available to offenders. Our particular input is in relation to public safety, reducing re-offending and to promote social inclusion for offenders.

The third aim is to prevent and minimise homelessness among offenders. Deputy Costello alluded to transitional accommodation for those coming out of prison as more than just a roof over their heads. For many offenders it is the key to transition. One of the challenging things of this new initiative is that we have a nation-wide remit. We can replicate and transplant elements of best practice from around the country in other areas.

Another important principle is that of integration of offenders rather than ghettoisation. We hope to move away from single service provision for offenders within specific areas and integrate them into mainstream services, adding value to existing services rather than competing with them.

Senator Terry raised the issue of BOND in the Blanchardstown area. BOND, as well as providing accommodation facilities for offenders, has an existing day service which the probation service is closely involved with and to which it channels funding. We would see BOND as a valued partner within the greater Blanchardstown area in working with offenders and as a community-based response.

I have been closely involved with the accommodation initiative as it has developed over the last few months. I would not want to contradict Senator Terry, but rather hopefully put a positive spin on the current situation. From my contact with BOND and the relevant funding agencies, I feel the initiative is not yet dead. Recently, I received some positive indication that, hopefully, funding will be forthcoming for that initiative. We are pursuing this, advocating on behalf of BOND for it to reach fruition.

Senator Terry asked about the delay in opening the office in Blanchardstown. While the probation and welfare service has a role in identifying possible premises for accommodation, once we refer any possible site to the Office of Public Works, we are in the hands of other agencies.

A site was acquired.

Yes, but we now have to wait for the office to be prepared by the Office of Public Works. Senator Terry also mentioned the question of young offenders in the Blanchardstown area. I am surprised to find that there is only one person under 18 years. I cannot explain why that is the case given that we have in excess of 600 under 18 year olds on our workload, country-wide. The Garda diversion schemes are effective in trying to keep young people, when they get into trouble, from entering into the criminal justice agencies. They divert quite a number of young people away from the probation and welfare service. It is only when young people do not respond to these schemes that they proceed to court and come to the attention of the probation and welfare service. We expect with the introduction of the new children's legislation, that the number might increase.

We are building prisons to incarcerate 14 and 15 year olds. By the time some reach 14 years of age, they already have impressive criminal records. We are talking about ten and 11 year old children. It is a matter of identification. Are we doing enough in communities to identify these children involved in criminal activity at an earlier age? When do they come to the attention of the probation services?

As already stated, many young people who are already on the road to a life of delinquency and crime can be identified much earlier. In particular, they can be identified at the education stage if they are not attending school and so on. It seems that while many attempts are made by the educational services to address the issues that arise, the problems of non-attendance at school are often more associated with what is going on within the family rather than with what is happening in school. In that context, serious consideration must be given to directing appropriate skilled resources to the problems that are being encountered by dysfunctional families rather than——

What can be done in that regard?

We will return to this matter, on a general basis, later. I want to move to dealing with the Prisons Service. I thank our guests for their responses and ask them to remain to take general questions.

I have some prepared remarks, but I am conscious of how late it is and would like to distribute my prepared remarks and just make a few brief comments, some of which will pick up on comments that have already arisen in the discussion of the probation service and its role.

We will append this to the report.

This is an effort to be helpful in moving along the committee's deliberations.

We appreciate that.

We co-operated fully with and welcomed the NESF report on the reintegration of prisoners. We see ourselves as a service agency that works on a co-operative basis with other Government agencies - including our colleagues in the probation and welfare service - the courts, the Garda Síochána and the Parole Board, an important organisation which is coming more to the fore in dealing with longer term prisoners and on the board of which our organisation and the probation service are represented. The Parole Board guides our services and advises the Minister on the release of long-term prisoners and their arrangements. Much of the spade work is done for the Parole Board by the probation and welfare service, but it is worth referring to the board to give an outline of the full galaxy of services that are available for offender treatment in the State. We are but a part of that galaxy or spectrum of treatment and approaches.

I wish to address what I regard as some of the myths around imprisonment in this country and I will try to shed a little light on them from my perspective. I speak for myself when I make these remarks. Deputy Costello was talking about a high percentage of people in custody serving less than six months. On any working day, less than 10% of the prison population - 8% according to the most recent figures - are serving a sentence of six months or less. It is an absolute and complete myth that the prisons are full of people serving short sentences. The number of people——

I wish to draw Mr Aylward's attention to page eight of the report for 2001. It states that the overall number committed to prison under sentence for 2001 was 5,160 and that there was a reduction in the number of committals on sentence of less than six months. It was down from 3,650 in 1994 to 2,986 in 2001. That is well over 50%.

Mr. Aylward may be able to explain that.

I would like to address that point.

All I wanted to say was that the view I gave was not a myth.

We must distinguish between a flow of people getting a sentence and the number of people in custody on any day. Several hundred people are sent to prison every year for non-payment of debts or fines, but on any one day there might be four or five of them in custody. The point is that we have a very low percentage of people held each day for offences that drew a sentence of less than six months. It is a minute figure.

Another point I wish to make relates to the argument that if we had a bigger probation service, we would need a much smaller Prisons Service. I think this is a myth. A great many of the prisoners we have in custody have run the gamut of every conceivable intervention since childhood. It is sad that this is the case. I would like to see the development of a society that had more recourse to community interventions. We are the default mechanism for society, but we should be the last stop. I totally agree with that. Looking at the case records during my ten years of involvement with the Prisons Service, in case after case every other intervention has been tried before the unfortunate individual comes into our care. That is part of the reality. In my opinion, every society needs a pyramid of sanctions. It is only when the other elements in the pyramid are exhausted, I hope, that people are sent to prison.

Our report for 2001 - it is hoped that our 2002 report will be out before the summer - demonstrates that the courts, far from being on an imprisoning binge, are less and less inclined to hand down custodial sentences. Since the revolving door system was brought to a halt by the investment that has been made in recent years, rates of recidivism and re-offending and of people being constantly sent to prison have started to fall. It is important that we have a balanced approach to crime and punishment and offender treatment and we would like to be part of that approach.

There are many points we could make about the NESF report, but there is one which I would like to pick up on because it did repeat a canard about the propensity to imprison in this State. On the international league table of sending people to prison - there are league tables in everything - we are well in the mid-range. The figure stands at approximately 86 prisoners per 100,000 of population. Ireland has the seventh highest rate in Europe and is well below England and Wales, which have 139 prisoners for 100,000, and lower still than Scotland.

What the NESF report referred to was the number of people sent to prison per 1,000 crimes recorded. I am always saddened when people cite that statistic. We are well up the league table in terms of this category and that is because Ireland has one of the highest detection rates in the world. In many of the other countries, including the UK, that are in the league table of people sent to prison per 1,000 crimes recorded, the detection rates are very low. The result is that if people are not caught, there is no prospect of them coming before the courts or of being sent to prison. Per 100,000 of population, Ireland is modest and we are not, as a nation, involved in an imprisoning binge.

I do not want our country's rates of imprisonment to become distorted or out of line. I would like to think that the moderate and restrained approach to imprisonment which characterises this country will continue and that the community sanctions long advocated by people such as me who work in this area would continue to operate and be used. We have to acknowledge that those systems can also fail. It is only when the systems fail in the protection of the community that the courts have to take the custodial option.

Once people come into prison there is no doubt - the NESF report highlights this well - that there is a very disabling impact in imprisonment. On one hand one, it is protecting the community because the person is being restrained from besetting or annoying their neighbours or from committing crimes, but, on the other, one is possibly removing them from their home or residence or contributing to the break up of whatever positive relationship in which they might be involved. If the person has a job or the prospect of a job, that becomes diminished. Equally, a prison environment is somewhat disabling because the person's food and basic human needs are met, but in a systematic institutionalised way. We cannot help that, it is the nature of institutions.

We have to work - the NESF rightly exhorts us to do so - to do more by way of positive sentence management to try and work with other services and agencies, including community services and agencies, to address the problems that people in prison present with, regardless of whether these are behavioural, anger management problems, a propensity towards sexual offending, literacy problems, basic health problems or drug dependency. In all of these respects, it is interesting to note - the governor and my colleague, Marieva Coughlan, will confirm this - that many people in prison seek, at that moment of respite in their lives, to address the deficit or the need. People sometimes joke that prisoners make sure to avail of dental treatment while in prison but people also try to give up drugs while in prison. They declare their habit and ask for help. If they are on a methadone programme we seek to facilitate their continuance on the programme.

Many problems such as those with literacy are not declared in the macho world inhabited by the young offender but an extraordinary effort is being made within the Prisons Service by both prison and teaching staff to address basic literacy problems. These problems can be disabling in terms of gainful and lawful employment in the future. As a result of the chaotic conditions which prevailed from the late 1980s to mid-1990s, we could do very little for individual offenders. All that could be done at the time was keep them alive and put them through the system in one piece. Now that there is stability in the prison population and the recourse to imprisonment is being exercised with restraint, we have the prospect of a society in which the prison system is decent, humane, clean and respectful. It is a system which responds to the concerns of the community where there is truth in sentencing but opportunity for people to develop and go forward in life on the basis of sinning no more. I acknowledge we have a long way to go and many questions to answer but that is why we are here today.

I wish to ask some questions before I invite Members to do so. I will ask the Prisons Service representatives to answer first.

The probation service mentioned the question of temporary release and how it might be more helpful if temporary release was more readily available. Has there been an increase recently in temporary release orders and is there a structured programme of temporary release?

The subject of this meeting is the reintegration of prisoners into society rather than a discussion of the total system. What progress is being made to expand the range of specialised industrial training available to prisoners, particularly with reference to IT? Have adequate arrangements been made for female prisoners to ensure that they also have equality of access to industrial training?

At this late stage of the meeting I wish to extend a warm welcome to Mr. Seán Lowry and his team from the probation and welfare service and to Mr. Aylward and his colleagues.

I invite both groups to respond to my questions. I thank the probation and welfare service for the work it does in my area of north Tipperary. The community reparation project has been spearheaded by the probation and welfare service through Vincent Byrne and Donal Hurley from Limerick. It is an excellent example of the local community and the probation and welfare service working together.

As regards the reparation project where offenders are accountable to the community, does the probation and welfare service foresee itself becoming more involved in projects of this kind nation-wide? The project could be used in provincial towns with the co-operation of District Court judges as a means of reducing crime. It has worked successfully in Nenagh.

This may be a question to be answered by the Prisons Service representatives. When a criminal enters prison there is possibly very little known about his or her personal circumstances, the skills he or she may possess or the type of further education that may be most suitable. I am interested to know who makes the decisions on these matters.

The presentation from the Prisons Service notes that non-nationals make up 18% of the prison population. What services are available to the Prisons Service for language translation and the promotion of racial equality within the prison system? Has adequate funding been provided for these services? How does the Irish Prisons Service and the probation and welfare service deal with non-national offenders?

The lack of psychological services in the Prisons Service has been a contentious issue. Is it an area where there are deficits or is that a myth, as Mr. Aylward stated? This committee should be prepared to address the issue.

I thank Deputy Hoctor for those excellent questions.

My question is directed to Mr. Aylward but it may also be applicable to Mr. Lowry. It is a specific question about sex offenders. As of last September the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform informed me that the number of sex offenders in prison was 348 or 350. The surprising figure that accompanied that information was that only between 9% and 12% of those prisoners were receiving rehabilitation. Has that situation improved since then and are steps being taken to ensure that more sex offenders receive adequate rehabilitation?

There was a recent report which stated that in Oberstown an inordinate number of young offenders had either been sexually abused themselves or were sex abusers. The gist of the report was that if this problem is not dealt with at an early age then these young people will become the adult sex offenders of the future. The evidence was supported by UK statistics.

I welcome our visitors. I note that the re-offending rate among adult prisoners is somewhere in excess of 60% or perhaps even two thirds and it is in excess of 80% in the case of juvenile offenders in such places as Oberstown and Trinity House. Does Mr. Aylward think the Prisons Service is failing these people? Does the service require more resources in order to have any impact on the reduction of the rate of re-offending? What does Mr. Alyward need in terms of resources to achieve an improvement in the reduction of re-offending?

I will ask you to answer the questions that have been asked up to now and we will return to the other members for more questions.

I will share my time with my colleagues, Ms Coughlan and Mr. Whelan. I will answer some of the questions asked to help the committee with its deliberations.

The number on temporary release was much higher but we were using the device of temporary release created in the 1960 Criminal Justice Act for a purpose for which it was not originally intended. We were doing so to shed prisoners to make space for others and avoid riot in the prisons. It was that bad and I was part of that process for some years. It was a shocking business.

Today those on temporary release - there are 308 on temporary release today - are out for a reason. They may be out on a programme which includes the 70 or so lifers on temporary release for years and years because they remain under sentence for life. There are about 230 others out on some programme either coming to the end of their sentence if it was a determinate sentence or for a family reason. Sometimes people are admitted to hospital and do not need to be held in detention. Therefore, they are granted temporary release in the care of the hospital.

In relation to the 70 lifers, what is the normal length of prison sentence that a lifer would serve?

It varies but the figure could be 15 or 16 years or slightly less. People sometimes think they get out very early but that is not the case. I have known cases where the figure was 11 or 12 years but on the whole it is higher than people imagine.

Progress on training in the ICT area was mentioned. I will ask the governor to come in on this. In practically every prison in the State we now have a computer training workshop - two in some. Some are managed by prison officers who have trade imparting and training skills. In others there are teachers provided by the local vocational education committee. Therefore, computer access is very strong and very high on the agenda in the prisons. Some projects involve data entry and similar work. It is also open to women prisoners, particularly in the new Dóchas Centre, regarded as a model of its kind, even in Europe. In Limerick, while we have more restrictive facilities, we are completing a new women's facility. There is also access to computer training.

Deputy Hoctor asked about the personal circumstances of prisoners, how we assess and deal with them on committal. I will ask the governor to speak about this.

The Deputy also referred to our management of non-nationals and racial equality issues, on which there are two points I would like to make, the first of which is that we provide and arrange for interpretation facilities, particularly when they are trying to deal with their legal advisers or communicate about a problem. We have interpreters in and out of the prisons all the time. Second, we have had two studies done recently of the issue of racial equality in the prisons. One was done for pilot purposes in Wheatfield Prison, of which Mr. Whelan is governor. It showed there were gaps in the perception of each other by inmates. There was also a disinclination on the part of prisoners to complain about incidents they would perceive as having had a racial undertone, whether from another prisoner or in an altercation with a prison officer. We have made the reports public and can make them available to the committee.

We have said we will now have to address the issue of training of our staff, both when coming into the service and during in-service training. We want to achieve a full understanding by prison officers of the requirements to treat people in a way that is equal and fair and does not have a racial undertone. We want to ensure, if there is cause for complaint, that complaints are made and properly managed and dealt with. We want, generally, to have a service that is a model as an institution in the State in the way it manages people from a visibly different background to the general population.

Members will have seen in our report - I highlighted this in my introduction - that 18% of those committed to prison during 2001 were non-nationals. I will take the example of one nation well represented in our prisons. There are 45 South African nationals in Irish prisons today. Some 90 countries provided persons who came into custody in our prisons during 2001 and that figure is being maintained. It is certainly something we need to address and in a very open way we have brought in outside researchers to look at it. We have published the report and given a short response to it. It is something on which we need to do more work.

I will ask my colleague, Marieva Coughlan, to speak on the issue of the psychology service also raised by Deputy Hoctor. I hope she will not mind if I pass over it.

Deputy Deasy spoke about sex offenders about whom I want to make a very brief point which may be picked up further by my colleague, Ms Coughlan. Sex offenders get longer sentences than the general run of offenders. The number of prisoners who in a particular year go through the intensive sex offender treatment programme is not particularly significant. If it can do them any good, the important point is that we reach them before the end of their sentences. In recent years we have doubled the number of places on the programme and are meeting all those prisoners who wish to apply for it, are suitable, can manage it emotionally and have the social skills to take part in this type of programme. They are being facilitated while their needs are being met.

The intensive sex offender treatment programme is complex, cognitive and behavioural. To describe it simply, it works a little like the AA. People talk about their lives and how they slipped into an offending pattern. Where there is distortion in such an account, fellow offenders break down the denial and the excuses made. I know I am grossly oversimplifying it but that is the process. It is mediated and guided by the psychology service. We are working towards an extension of the service and the programme, which would mean delivery in every prison in the State. This would be done by multidisciplinary teams led by the probation and welfare and psychology services. I should acknowledge that the probation and welfare service is already involved on a 50:50 split. While it will lead, we will have our teachers and specially selected prison staff also delivering this cognitive behavioural programme.

We have other programmes for sex offenders, a great many of whom take part. Some feel they do not want to get into their own personal circumstances and can only work so far with the authorities. This is something we have to respect. We cannot compel treatment, even in a prison environment. The programmes include our thinking skills programme which addresses distortions in attitude towards, say, the opposite sex or consensual relationships. We have others about anger management which are also available to sex offenders. It is not true that only 10% or 11% of those in custody for sex crimes are getting help. The situation is a little better.

Those are the Minister's figures.

The Minister would have said in his response which we probably helped to prepare that the intensive sex offender treatment programme operated at that level and would have gone on to describe three or four other programmes, all of which cater for sex offenders. It is one of the little myths around prison life that only about 20 at a time are getting any sex offender treatment. It is a little more diverse and complex than that.

Deputy McGrath asked if we were failing on recidivism. We have to remember that most are in prison because everything else in society has failed. It is because all the other interventions and resources, family, community, school, the Garda juvenile liaison scheme, probation or intensive community programme, have failed. That is the reason we have them. I do not want to deny our responsibility but we must look at the context in which we are trying to deliver. We can and should do more.

I was asked if there was a magic formula. There is no magic bullet but it is fair to say hard drug dependency and homelessness would be big factors in reoffending. These are complex issues in any society and we all need to do more, including those of us in the Prisons Service. We can and do intend to do more. We hope to pull down the headline figure of 70% sometimes quoted. We will be working on this, especially if we have order in the system and can manage prisoners in a decent and civilised way. That would give us all the opportunity to do more.

I will ask Ms Coughlan to respond to the two points on which I asked her to give more information and then call on the governor, if that is acceptable.

Deputy Hoctor is correct in her perception that there is a lack of psychological services. Like any employer trying to recruit professional experienced psychologists at present, we are facing a market where there is a shortage of such psychologists. As I understand it, some 50% of health board positions are vacant. We are competing in the same market and are, perhaps, a less attractive option for those seeking employment. We have just ten psychologists including the head of psychology and the senior psychologist, some of whom are on part-time hours.

Within the new regimes directorate, a working group has been set up, which has directors from different strands within the Irish Prisons Service as well as governor representation and representation from the psychology service, to try to look creatively at the psychological skills required by the Prisons Service. These can roughly be divided between skills relating to the mental health needs of prisoners - addiction treatment could be included in that - and more systemic skills such as working with other staff to reduce the risk of re-offending, which is quite a specialised approach. There are, perhaps, other organisational needs we must explore and we must also consider current market forces with regard to how we can recruit and retain psychologists who can do the job.

Mr. Whelan

I will give Deputy Hoctor an example of what happens when a prisoner comes into custody. Committal details, such as name, address and outside employment, are taken by a member of the clerical staff. Prisoners are then taken to the reception officer who records all items of clothing, marks, scars, height and weight before photographs are taken of all sentenced committals. An information booklet is then given to each offender on the situation in the particular prison.

All committals are then seen by a nurse officer or medical orderly trained to give prescriptions and medications. All committals are seen by the governor the following morning because, by law, all prisoners must be seen by a governor, deputy governor or assistant governor. The committals are examined by a doctor who attends the prison daily and if a prisoner comes in at night, he or she is seen by the doctor the following morning. At the weekends, prisoners are seen on a Saturday although, if they arrive on a Saturday or Sunday, they are not seen until Monday morning. For emergencies, there is doctor cover and a doctor will come to the prison.

Each offender is then seen by an assistant governor in charge of work and training or, in some prisons, by an industrial manager or a chief officer. Such an officer is accompanied by a teacher and they talk to the prisoner to discover what skills he or she has and what type of work he or she did on the outside. We then try to match the prisoner's skills with the workshops, catering and education available. The emphasis, particularly in my prison, Wheatfield, is on education, work and training. No offender is in his or her cell during the day but is either at work, in education or training, which is the position in most prisons at present.

There is currently a good educational system in all of the prisons. Dublin VEC, Cork VEC and different vocational education committees provide the teachers for the prisons. There are very good workshops in the prisons including on construction, joinery, laundry, computers and printing, and all prisoners can take City and Guilds exams. Some prisoners have very little education, perhaps up to primary level. They can take their junior certificate and leaving certificate and third level distance learning. The good thing about this is that outside examiners come to the prisons. It is like doing an exam in June in a secondary school.

Offenders are encouraged to attend educational units which provide classes in literacy, numeracy, English, maths, geography, cookery, computers, home economics, gardening, art, pottery and music, as well as taking their junior and leaving certificates and enrolling in Open University courses. If we know that prisoners have particular skills, we will match those with their needs and try to help. If a prisoner is serving a long sentence, we will try to break up that sentence by sending him or her to a training unit or to other prisons where there are more facilities. There are a good variety of programmes in place and the system works very well.

I asked a question about the figures coming from Oberstown. Is there an active rehabilitation programme——

I ask Deputy Deasy to come back to that. I want Mr. Lowry to come in and we can return to other matters.

I thank Deputy Hoctor for her positive reference to the Nenagh reparation project which she has taken particular interest in over the years. Given a free choice, it is the type of project in which the probation and welfare service, on behalf of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, would like to make greater investment. There are a number of victim mediation and reparation projects which could be extended with a lot of profit. On the other hand, there are more pressing demands on the service at present, especially with regard to the attempt to develop projects to address issues such as homelessness and addiction. However, given a free choice, the project is something to which we would like to devote more attention.

Deputy Deasy referred to recidivism rates in regard to Oberstown. It does not come under the remit of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, the Irish Prisons Service or the probation and welfare service but is run by the Department of Education and Science. However, the Deputy may be correct to say that recidivism rates there are particularly high.

It is the experience of the probation and welfare service that younger people are more difficult to work with. Older people tend to be more rational and can be worked with in a more direct way in regard to their criminality. Younger people will tend to be more emotional and less controlled in their responses. The readiness of young people to engage in remedial activity is not as high as it is for older people. In places such as the detention schools and prisons, the fact must be faced that a substantial number of people are difficult to engage in the kind of services we have to offer. We would dearly like to be in a position to take services to a greater number of people, both in custodial situations and in the community, but the reality is that quite a number of people in these settings do not respond to the attempts made to engage them.

Reference was made to the question of abused people becoming abusers. There is no evidence that a greater number of people who have been abused become abusers than of those from non-abused backgrounds. Unfortunately, when an abused person becomes an abuser, it tends to get media attention.

I welcome the Irish Prisons Service representatives to the committee. The establishment of the new Irish Prisons Service and the Prisons Service Board is welcome and I am delighted that one of their first documents was a strategy statement for 2001 to 2003. The strategy statement from the probation and welfare service is also to be welcomed and commended. It represents the best way forward in terms of planning for the prisons service. The statement shows that the probation and welfare service is at arm's length from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Many good things are done within the prisons service - the excellent role of the vocational education committees in providing education has been mentioned.

The 2001 report showed a dramatic reduction in the number of young people coming into the prison system. That is perhaps the report's most welcome feature and I would like Mr. Aylward or someone else to comment on it. How does he envisage that this area will develop? Reference was made to mental health, the arrival in the system of young children and homelessness. The treatment of sex offenders and drug offenders, who have changed the profile of the prison system in the last 20 years, is a major question.

I do not think some of the elements of the system, referred to as "myths" by Mr. Aylward, are myths as there is a strong grain of truth in them. There has been a substantial decrease in detected crime in each of the last five years, according to the annual Garda reports. The detection of offences coming before the courts has been decreasing every year.

That is contrary to what Mr. Aylward said.

Detected offences have been decreasing all the time, but there has also been a substantial increase in the number of people brought into custody each year. How can the delegation explain this anomaly? The number of prison spaces has increased enormously, from just over 2,000 some years ago to over 4,000 by the end of this year. There will have been an increase of almost 100%. I can understand that the increase in spaces will relieve the revolving door syndrome, which was the subject of many complaints, and will allow for a programme of refurbishment, but it boggles the mind that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform should announce decreases in the number of criminal offences at the same time as providing capital funding for extra custodial detention.

Approximately 58% of those who went through the prison system in recent years were imprisoned for offences that carry a sentence of less than six months. The vast majority of offences could be dealt with in the District Court, which is the court of minor offences and has a remit of two years. If we compare the fact that almost 3,000 spaces are provided for those serving six months or under - over 1,000 people are imprisoned for the non-payment of fines - with the fact that just over 9,000 people go through the prisons, one will find that a large number of people in prisons should be diverted out of the prison system entirely, irrespective of the amount of time they spend in it. Why should they be there at all? A sentence of six months is an acknowledgement that a minor offence, which will receive a minor sentence, is involved. What is the purpose of sending such people to prison?

I disagree with Seán Aylward in so far as I believe strongly that the probation and welfare service should be doubled. Why should the focus of the penal sanctioning system - the courts - be directed towards the prisons, where the service has a minimal presence? There are 28 officers in the 16 prisons and just over 400 in all. A great deal of work could be done if community sanctions were identified. A community service order is only one such sanction and there is no reason other sanctions, such as restitution or making offenders stay in their homes for weekends, cannot be considered. Detention in the home, in the form of a curfew, is possible. A great deal of work could be done if the will existed. I do not blame anybody in the system.

Those before the committee are not answerable for policy matters.

These matters have to be raised as part of the operation of the system. If the system works in this fashion, there is a danger that we are not dealing properly with it. Real programmes need to be established to address the problems of sex offenders and drug offenders.

Mr. Ned Whelan, the governor of Wheatfield Prison, gave a fine presentation about the operation of the regime in his prison, which deals with those who are committed in a caring manner. It is not the regime recommended by the National Economic and Social Forum, however, which said that an induction process should take place. On arrival, prisoners should be met by a multidisciplinary team and not by individual nurses, doctors or governors. The team should work with prisoners to agree a sentence management programme for the duration of their sentences. Such a programme should be supported by the probation and welfare service. I am advocating an holistic approach, rather than a step-by-step process which may not involve links between individual units. I would like Mr. Whelan to outline the nature of the relationship between Wheatfield Prison and the multidisciplinary team, or set of teams, that will be required if we are to implement the recommendations of the NESF in a meaningful fashion. I realise that the NESF recommendations were received less than 12 months ago.

I agree with Deputy Costello regarding the number of committals for people with sentences of less than six months. The fact that people are given sentences of that duration indicates that something is wrong with the courts system. Perhaps community sanctions should be imposed in such circumstances, rather than imprisonment. I refer, for example, to the non-payment of fines. I hope we can work together to reduce the number of people in jail as a result of such offences.

I would like to be associated with the welcome extended to our guests, particularly those who have served in Tallaght. I do not wish to name them in case it upsets their career prospects. I will name Seán Lowry, however, as he recently visited my constituency through the probation and welfare service. I have not said where I am from; I am allowing others to guess. Mr. Lowry recently visited Brookfield.

I wondered how long it would take the Deputy to mention Tallaght; it took five seconds.

I was not going to mention it, but I wished to name Mr. Lowry, who was kind enough to visit. I compliment Mr. Lowry and his service in that regard. Public moneys have been used well by helping young people who are at risk and who have been in trouble to develop career opportunities. I would be grateful if Mr. Lowry could pass on my best wishes to his staff. I have not seen Mr. Aylward in Tallaght, although I have extended an invitation to him. He would have been somewhat surprised if I had not mentioned his commitment to the juvenile centre in Tallaght during my contribution. The compliments paid to the governor reminded me of the focus of the campaign in Clondalkin where there are already such establishments. I could spend much time extolling the virtues of the campaign we have waged. Perhaps Mr. Aylward will take my breath away at the conclusion of my contribution when he tells me the project is to be cancelled. I suspect he will not. I note that Mr. Aylward has read the correspondence and heard contributions of campaigners. We have used political mechanisms to impress on the Minister and the Government that this project, worthy as it might be, should be located elsewhere. Many of my colleagues in the Dáil tell me they would be very happy to facilitate Mr. Aylward and to arrange for him to see what they describe as excellent sites. The site earmarked in my constituency is not suitable for a number of reasons.

The Deputy has talked himself back into it now.

I am happy I have had the chance to make my point, which is what my constituents would expect me to do. Mr. Aylward would be shocked if I did not use the opportunity. I look forward to being put out of my misery tonight, if possible. If it cannot be done tonight, I might very well chase Mr. Aylward tomorrow to attend the meeting he promised to have with community representatives.

Other than this little problem, I am supportive of the work Mr. Aylward and his colleagues do and I am sorry we have had this disagreement. As a member of this committee, I am happy to be associated with the welcome extended to the Irish Prisons Service delegation and with the support offered to them. In a democracy, we are entitled to question what is done in our prisons and, as Deputy Costello points out, to ensure that people are being treated properly.

When I referred to juvenile offenders, Mr. Lowry spoke about an identification process at an early point in the educational process. I am interested in the point he seemed to be about to develop.

It is possible to identify young people who are at risk or who will become at risk of progressing through the criminal justice system unless effective intervention is made. Many years ago, a certain cleric invited criticism when he said that he could see the number of the cell in Mountjoy Prison a child he was baptising might end up in. He was aware of the circumstances of families and the likelihood of a person growing up as a marginalised young person in society. Considerations of that kind must be taken into account when decisions are made about targeting services at crime prevention at as early an age as possible.

Should the initiative come from the Department of Education and Science?

There are many different analyses of how crime and other social problems should be addressed. I present the committee with my analysis which should be discussed with other Departments.

That is another question entirely. We are discussing the reintegration of people who are already within the system. We will have to examine the question of early intervention.

Deputy Costello asked about the number of people who serve short sentences. It is part of the everyday reality of the District Court that quite a number of people appear who are well known to judges and who have not responded to community sanctions. It may be that while trying to respond, they got into further trouble. If a person is obviously not responding to efforts to engage him or her in community sanctions, judges often find it necessary to impose a custodial sentence. Remarks I made earlier about the percentage of people who are prepared to engage with the available services and the percentage who are not are relevant.

I am aware the hour is late and I do not intend to stray in the direction of policy. I will try to wrap up if I may. Deputy Costello asked why I thought the number of under 21 year olds being sent to prison reduced by a third between 1994 and 2001. The revolving door stopped revolving in 2000 while demographics changed and the proportion of the population aged between 18 and 21 stabilised or decreased. The courts have adopted a community sanction approach to a greater degree which means that offenders come to us a little later in their offending careers. The trend is positive and it reflects well on the choice of approach. The number of people being sent to prison over the period went down by a quarter from 6,866 to 5,160 between 1994 and 2001. These facts are not evidence of a society that is on an imprisoning binge.

I was asked, in the context of falling numbers, why we were making a significant investment in imprisonment. We are trying to end the obscenity of over-crowded cells, of prisoners sleeping on mattresses on floors and of prisoners lying between the gates in Mountjoy. We have lived with these problems for too long. I remember being told during the period in question that the nose of a chief officer was broken by a prisoner because the prisoner had been told to bring a fourth mattress into a cell and to share it. Labouring under these appalling conditions meant that the prospects of reintegrating or rehabilitating prisoners were nil. I do not wish to stray into the area of policy, but I am proud to stand over a system in which we can provide more single cells and flush toilets to prisoners. A flush toilet is not a luxury, it is a marker of a civilised society. People often quote Winston Churchill's comment that the mark of a society is how it treats its prisoners. The way we treated ours until recently in terms of the allocation of resources towards their care was shameful. I am pleased with our progress and I would like to do more. I have no wish to take the bread from anyone else's mouth when I say that as a society we must be resourceful in the management of our offenders.

I note the comments made by Deputy O'Connor. The decision to open any custodial centre rests ultimately with the elected Government. I will say no more about that tonight.

Deputy O'Connor is part of the Government.

Mr. Whelan

For Deputy Costello's information, we have multidisciplinary teams working in our prisons which involve probation and welfare officers, employment officers, teachers, psychologists and others. We examine the case of each prisoner and put a programme in place for him or her. The system may not be as developed as we would like, but we are working on it. We hope, in the near future, to introduce an induction programme, including a positive sentence management plan, for all offenders.

We are working on the introduction of a positive sentence management plan for every offender in the State. A pilot programme will be launched in one or two locations as soon as is practicable.

I thank everyone who attended today. It is very important that the probation and welfare service and the Prisons Service engage with this committee. The meeting has been effective and featured excellent questions and answers. Members will leave with much more knowledge than they possessed when they arrived. If other matters come to mind, about which witnesses believe the committee should be made aware, they should not hesitate to contact the secretariat - by e-mail, telephone or in writing - to arrange for the relevant information to be passed on.

The joint committee went into private session at 7.31 p.m. and adjourned at 7.38 p.m. sine die.

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