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JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN’S RIGHTS debate -
Tuesday, 14 Oct 2003

Vol. 1 No. 35

Garda Commissioner: Presentation.

I welcome the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána, Mr. Noel Conroy, and his Deputy Commissioner, Mr. Fachtna Murphy, as well as Assistant Commissioner Mr. Patrick Crummy.

This is the first meeting of the committee with the commissioner since his appointment. We wish you well and look forward to working with you over the next number of years. You know this committee from your previous appearance with the last commissioner, Mr. Pat Byrne, and we look forward to seeing you many times again. I would like to congratulate you on your appointment, we look forward to working with you and we wish you every success in your new role.

Members have been circulated with a copy of the list of subjects proposed for discussion. They are crime trends, operation encounter, public order. the CAB and traffic.

I invite Commissioner Conroy to make a brief statement.

Commissioner Noel Conroy

Thank you Chairman. Good afternoon Deputies. As the Chairman outlined, there are five topics for discussion. I will deal with crime first.

On the international dimension of crime, the activities of organised crime groups are increasingly transnational. Sometimes they operate from one country, directing their business in another country and having a major impact on the crime situation in the countries concerned. The principal type of activity undertaken by organised crime groups are drugs trafficking, trafficking in human beings, smuggling goods, such as tobacco and fuel oils, counterfeiting and forgery and, finally, moneylaundering. As greed is the driving force behind most organised criminal activity, those involved do not confine themselves to any particular area of crime. The same groups are frequently involved in drugs trafficking, trafficking human beings and smuggling. They use the same tried and trusted routes and distribution networks for their products and engage in counterfeiting, forgery and moneylaundering to support their activities and dispose of their ill-gotten gains.

Ireland, like most other countries in Europe, is a victim of transnational organised criminal activity. Until relatively recently, organised crime in Ireland was driven by Irish nationals. This trend is changing with the influx of non-nationals, some of whom have close criminal links with organised crime groups in other jurisdictions. We also have Irish nationals living in places such as the south of Spain and the Netherlands, who have maintained links with criminal organisations in Ireland while building links with similar groups in their homes and further afield. The Garda Síochána, through its international contacts and its involvement in organisations such as Interpol, Europol and the various EU institutions, plays an active part in the fight against organised criminal activity at home and abroad.

The creation of the National Bureau of Criminal Investigation, Garda Bureau of Fraud Investigation, Garda National Drugs Unit, Criminal Assets Bureau and the Garda Immigration Bureau, enable the Garda Síochána to tackle organised crime in areas of violent crime, fraud, counterfeiting, drug trafficking, trafficking in human beings and moneylaundering in a structured and co-ordinated fashion. These units function on intelligence driven operations. They are also able to target and seize the proceeds of crime from which criminal groups draw their motivation and strength.

On drugs, cocaine and heroin are the two main areas of concern at present. A major international investigation targeting Irish, UK, Spanish and Colombian based criminal organisations involved in trafficking of cocaine and cannabis is ongoing and has resulted to date this year in two Irish nationals being charged by gardaí and over 37 kilograms of cocaine and 1,032 kilograms of cannabis being seized.

In another ongoing investigation targeting heroin trafficking by Irish, UK and Dutch criminal organisations, two persons have been sentenced to five years imprisonment each, while three more are currently awaiting trial. The Garda Síochána work closely with the Customs National Drugs Team in targeting the activity of suspected drugs traffickers. Earlier this year heroin with an estimated street value of €2 million was seized and four individuals, one from Ireland, one from Spain and two from the United Kingdom, are currently before the courts.

During the first six months of this year, more than 72 kilograms of cocaine have been seized compared to just 32 kilograms during the whole of the year 2002. During the same period, more than 22 kilos of heroin were seized compared to 26 kilos during 2002.

On the issue of crime overall, as the committee will already be aware from figures published in July by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, headline offences statistics in respect of the first six months of 2003 show an overall decrease of 7%, or 4,039 incidents, in comparison to the same period of 2002. Violent incidents of assault and robbery show a downward trend. The greatest decrease was noted in the number of assaults causing harm, which was down by 828. It is worth noting that Irish crime trends tend to mirror closely trends in the UK. This is particularly evident in the areas of public order and violent crime which have experienced notable increases in both jurisdictions in recent times.

During the first six months of this year, violent crime accounted for less than 11% of the total headline crime. This compares to over 12% during the same period of 2002, a reduction of almost 1,500 violent incidents. In England and Wales during the 2002-03 accounting year, violent crime accounted for 17% of police recorded crime.

On homicide, during the year of 2002, there has been a total of 59 homicides in this country, which can be broken down further into 52 murders and 7 cases of manslaughter. Of these, 49 were detected. In 2001, there were 58 homicides, which were further divided into 52 murders and six cases of manslaughter, of which 51 were detected. To date this year, there have been 42 homicides, which can be broken down into 39 murders and three instances of manslaughter. Of these, 24 have been detected. A number of current year killings are under active investigation. Suspects have been identified and the prospect of criminal prosecution seems positive.

I am concerned at the number of homicides and other instances involving the use of firearms. Of the 42 deaths this year, 19 involved the use of firearms. This compares to ten in the year 2002 and nine in the year 2001. There are a number of factors which explain this increase. Some former paramilitary weapons have found their way into the hands of criminal organisations and this has contributed to the general increase in the use of firearms in recent times, in particular in so-called gangland style murders and shootings. There have also been cases where former paramilitaries have turned to crime. Criminal gangs are also known to import firearms with their consignments of drugs and cigarettes and so on.

In Limerick city and its environs, many lives have been needlessly lost in recent times. A very substantial effort has been made to readdress this situation. No resources are being spared in this effort. Current indications are that these are meeting with some success. Likewise in Dublin, a number of murders have taken place recently involving the use of firearms. Major investigations are currently ongoing and suspects have been identified and in some cases charged. Other investigations are progressing satisfactorily.

On the preventative side, two specific operations have been established over the past four weeks. Operation Lance was established to counter proliferation of incidents involving the use of firearms and to prevent serious crime in the Dublin region. A team of gardaí under the direction and control of a detective superintendent have been assigned to the operation. Already some success has been achieved. A number of people are currently before the courts. As a result of the increased use of firearms and crime generally in the Finglas area of Dublin, Operation Crossover was put into effect in September. Dedicated Garda resources have been deployed in the area to counter the unlawful carriage and use of firearms. In addition to local uniformed and plain clothes personnel, the resources of the special detective units and the emergency response unit are also deployed on this operation. Garda activity is focused on known and likely flashpoints.

Moving to public order——

If Commissioner Conroy would not mind, we have an hour to discuss this. The crime trends that the witness discussed have included many different areas. Would the witness mind if some questions were asked on that particular item and then, if we have time, we could come to public order.

I welcome the Commissioner.

I ask Commissioner Conroy to bank these questions because there are a number of Deputies offering.

I welcome Commissioner Conroy and congratulate him on his new appointment. I hope that today will be the first of many visits to this committee. There is a lot of work to be done between both of our respective areas to increase co-operation and the flow of information. Hopefully, we can improve matters. I welcome the Commissioner's team.

I will put all of my questions together briefly. My first question is about traffic and fines. I saw a newspaper article recently indicating that because of the poor collection of fines, such as parking fines, speeding fines and so on, the Garda are contemplating letting this out to the private sector. Is that the case? If so, how do the Garda intend to do it? My second question also concerns traffic. Unfortunately, there are far too many fatalities in this country.

There are other areas to be discussed. We are discussing crime just now.

I am trying to put them all together and then let the Commissioner come in.

The Commissioner will not answer them. I am going to ask him simply to answer the items concerning crime to which we have already referred.

All right. My next question might not relate to crime, as such, Chairman, but it concerns public order and is very topical. It concerns fireworks. I receive many calls from elderly people who are annoyed and upset by the use and availability of fireworks. It is a major concern for elderly people at this time of year as fireworks are pushed through their doors, and so on. Can the Commissioner tell us if this is being specifically targeted? It seems to me that there are known suppliers in every area. I understand that the law indicates that it is not an offence to possess fireworks but it is an offence to sell them or to have them for sale. Can the Garda do something about this and what is it going to do?

My final question also relates to public order. I wish to raise the question of privacy in Garda stations. If, for example, I go to my local Garda station in Mullingar and have some business to transact, everybody else in the public area will know exactly what my business is. There is no privacy whatsoever. It is an open room. One approaches a hatch and unless everyone else present is deaf, they will hear one's business. Has the Commissioner any ideas how this situation can be improved? This Garda station has already been improved and is relatively new. I remember that Assistant Commissioner Crummy was at the opening. What can be done to improve privacy at Garda stations?

I too, welcome the new Garda Commissioner, Mr. Conroy, and welcome Deputy Commissioner, Mr. Fachtna Murphy and Assistant Commissioner, Mr. Patrick Crummy. The Commissioner is new to the job and I hope we will meet him on a regular basis. He certainly has a lot of work to do. I do not know what his opinion is, although I would welcome it, but it is my opinion that we have a policing crisis in relation to crime, on which we were asked to concentrate. We seem to have a number of gangland style killings in urban areas, particularly in Limerick and parts of Dublin. There seem to be no-go areas and that gardaí are unable to deal with them. Finglas is a case in point and I have no doubt Deputy Carey will refer to it. Neither the gardaí in the local Garda stations, whether in Blanchardstown or elsewhere, nor those at national level know what to do about the situation. The Commissioner gave some figures on homicides and prosecutions but I have no evidence of a gangland style murder committed this year being prosecuted in the courts or a culprit, who committed a murder this year, going to prison. There is a major concern that drugs and firearms are readily available and that there are barons who control their own patches and who do so with impunity. How does the commissioner propose to deal with that because it is a major threat to law and order?

My second question, which is related, concerns garda discipline. As recently as this morning, we heard the appalling case of gardaí behaving badly towards jurors. That is happening across the board on a regular basis and the Garda Complaints Board is certainly not adequate to deal with it. I would like to hear the Commissioner's views on ensuring we have a top of the range Garda force with the best behaviour, discipline and morale and whether he supports movements towards an independent Garda complaints unit - for example, an ombudsman. How does he envisage ensuring there are independent mechanisms to ensure that in the future gardaí are seen to be above reproach?

I am sure the Commissioner will answer questions on behaviour and discipline in the force but the matter of the inspectorate has still to come before the Houses. I am sure the Commissioner would not be prepared to give an opinion on it.

I, too, welcome the Commissioner and congratulate him on his appointment. He and I started in Finglas in the same year, although neither of us will say what year.

You have both come a long way.

We certainly have.

Mr. Conroy

We are not finished yet.

In the course of your address, Commissioner, you mentioned Limerick and Finglas almost in the same sentence, if not in the same paragraph. Limerick has a large number of Garda stations while Finglas has one, which you know very well. It is an old run-down Garda station with approximately 70 members. Your staff is carrying out four investigations into major crimes in Finglas, all of which have to be carried out in Blanchardstown Garda station as there is no room to do so in Finglas Garda station. The six murders which have taken place in Finglas in as many months are extremely worrying. I do not believe there are no-go areas in Finglas. I want to give the lie to that. The majority of the population in Finglas are anxious to co-operate with the gardaí, although some are genuinely afraid to do so.

There is no doubt there has been a proliferation of firearms in the Finglas area in the last two years which was brought to the attention of senior gardaí by my colleagues and myself at regular meetings. I do not believe sufficient seriousness was taken of our concerns articulated locally over the last number of years. Will the Commissioner assure my colleagues, myself and the Finglas community that an ongoing policing plan will be put in place to ensure this almost rampant terror is ended? It happened on a previous occasion in Finglas and gardaí at the time were successful in countering it. It is time for a radical policing plan to be put in place to engage with the local community, to renew confidence in the gardaí and to ensure people co-operate with and give information to the gardaí and to no other source. There is danger that information will be channelled elsewhere in the hope that matters will be tackled by others outside the standard police force. What plans are you and your colleagues putting in place to ensure this particular spate of gangland violence in the Finglas area is brought to an end quickly and that it does not spread throughout the city?

I welcome the Commissioner, the Deputy Commissioner and the Assistant Commissioner and congratulate them on their promotions. It is always refreshing to see another west of Ireland man doing well in the public service and I wish the Commissioner good luck in his job which is an extremely difficult one.

Deputy Carey and Deputy Costello talked about gangland and the serious crime in the city. It is important we realise this is not just confined to Finglas or to Limerick. There are many places in this State, including many parts of my constituency, in which there are elements that are bullying and intimidating communities. Even Members of this House have been threatened by these so-called gang leaders or people involved in gangs. I have been threatened by a number of them over the years so I know what is happening in the real world. They are dominating communities in many areas and it is really disheartening for the people who live in them. What safety and security plans can you put in place to reach out to those communities which feel totally let down by middle or civic Ireland or whatever one wants to call it?

On the numbers game in the gardaí, it is often said to us that there are many gardaí in stations working on computers and on administration and that is one of the reasons we do not see them on the streets involved in direct policing. Is that correct? In regard to drugs, it appears the cocaine situation has got worse over the last six or 12 months compared to the heroin situation. What is the updated situation in terms of dealing with those issues?

I have mentioned this before, but it is crucial to restate it if one is talking about crime and crime prevention. Some 90,000 children in this State are living poverty. Approximately 2,000 of them come from violent, dysfunctional and disruptive families. Those children will be in Mountjoy in seven to ten years' time. Do the gardaí have an early response to this nightmare scenario which is about to happen in ten years' time? The figures are there and they will be backed up by community workers, youth workers and teachers.

The next question is linked to the last one. In modern policing, is there too much emphasis on solving crime rather than preventing it? For example, the garda who solves a murder seems to get rapid promotion whereas the garda or the sergeant who goes out on a Saturday night and prevents attacks and stabbings outside chip shops and pubs is not really taken seriously within the force. Is that the case?

Deputy Costello touched on the following point. There is a massive lack of confidence in the Garda given all the scandals and the lack of response to anti-social behaviour calls. People are getting in contact with TDs and councillors to say they have a major problem. They will not say it directly to your face, but they are telling councillors and TDs. Is the Commissioner aware that this lack of confidence is rampant in Irish society?

I refer to the numbers game. There are 12,000 gardaí. I was in Pollothomas, County Mayo, yesterday visiting the residences damaged by the recent landslide. I left Pollothomas at 3 o'clock in the afternoon and after four to five hours' driving I arrived in Collins Avenue at 7.55 p.m. Between Pollothomas on the west coast of Mayo and Collins Avenue in Dublin city I did not see one garda or one Garda vehicle. If I drove the same distance in France or Spain - which I did in France during the summer - I would have had six or seven sightings of police patrols. Where are the gardaí? That is a regular complaint from my constituents.

I congratulate the Commissioner on his appointment and wish him good luck in the future.

Deputies McGinley, Power,Ó Snodaigh and O'Connor have indicated they wish to speak. I ask that we keep the questions to the area of crime because the Commissioner will only address questions on crime. We will then deal with public order items. A number of the questions have already been asked but I would prefer if members waited until we come to that point.

I promise to be brief. Like my colleagues, I also congratulate the Commissioner on his appointment and wish him a happy tenure in that important office.

I come from a Border area where there has been a significant decrease in the number of personnel in Border Garda stations. In places such as Pettigo, Castlefin and Carrigans there has been a huge reduction in the number of gardaí based in such stations and I am sure that is the case across the Northern Ireland southern Border to Carlingford. Has there been any change in the crime rate or the number of paramilitary activities in those areas in the wake of the Good Friday Agreement and following the foot and mouth disease outbreak?

What is the extent of the co-operation between the Garda and the Police Service of Northern Ireland? An area of major interest to us in Donegal and about which there has been much public comment in recent weeks are the number of terrible traffic accidents that occur in my county involving people from Northern Ireland. A year ago, two cars from Northern Ireland travelling at over 100 miles per hour crashed on a road in Donegal resulting in three fatalities. If such people are apprehended, can they be pursued? Are they subject to our laws? What is the extent of the co-operation between the Garda and the authorities in Northern Ireland? Does any co-operation exist, either on a formal or informal basis?

I may be out of order raising this issue but we have lost quite a few small Garda stations in Donegal. Are there plans for further closures?

That is another day's work.

I had intended to ask a number of questions about public order but in the light of your comments, Chairman, I will defer them until we get to the next section but the fact that public order offences are not being dealt with under the heading of "Crime" speaks volumes. That is the heart of what I had intended to say but I will return to it in the next section.

I will allow you to come in first when we reach that section.

I welcome the Commissioner and his colleagues. I hope that when his period of office is completed, the Garda Síochána will have regained the confidence and trust that has been lost in the past few years in some areas in particular.

My question relates to the areas of reporting and the crime trend. Has the PULSE system settled down? Can we take it that the figures we are getting now are accurate? When the PULSE system first came into being some areas were not fully on board and we were not getting full reportage. Can we take it that from now on there will not be any under-reporting or over-reporting in respect of crimes committed in the past which the Garda did not have an opportunity to record?

On the figures given to us, I am trying to distinguish between the figures for manslaughter and murder. How is that determination made by the Garda? People are often not charged with these crimes until a number of years later when the investigations are complete. One figure shows a reduction of 11% and the other shows an increase of 17%.

The Commissioner mentioned an operation currently under way in Finglas and said that Limerick had a major problem with crime lords using unlawful weapons to murder people. In my own area of Crumlin, Drimnagh and Inchicore, which crosses over two boundary divisions, there have been a number of shooting incidents in recent months and years. We would be comparable to Limerick in that area yet there has not been a specific operation to move against some of these gangs.

My final point relates to drug offences. I welcome the recent seizures in my own area. Good work is being done by the gardaí on the drugs issue but many more Garda resources need to be redirected towards tackling the drugs issue. The previous Commissioner, or the one before him, once stated that up to 75% of crime in Dublin was drugs related but if Garda resources were directed towards tackling the issue of drug crime, we would all have a better quality of life in Dublin. Some of the thuggery and intimidation mentioned by my colleagues could be tackled by targeting drug crime.

Like my colleagues I welcome the Commissioner and congratulate him on his appointment. I welcome his two colleagues also. The presence of the Assistant Commissioner reminds me that Dublin South-West continues to produce gardaí at the highest level and in that regard, the appointments of Noel Smyth and Noel White recently have greatly pleased those of us on the ground. Perhaps the Commissioner would note that.

I notice all three gentleman are taking copious notes. Perhaps they might write down the word "Tallaght" because I want to talk about Tallaght and crime. I strongly believe that we should support the gardaí in every way. I have always taken that view in my public and community life. As a resident of my area, I feel strongly about that. Tallaght is the third largest population centre in the country. Other colleagues talked about Garda stations and resources but as a public representative representing the community, I can easily say that I have no problem with the manner in which tackling crime has been managed, except to say that Tallaght, Firhouse, Greenhills and Templeogue is a huge population centre and as I have pointed out on a number of occasions, including to the Commissioner's predecessor, there is only one Garda station in Tallaght.

I want to put on record that the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors recently pointed out that it is now its policy to look for a public/private partnership in respect of the redevelopment of Tallaght Garda station. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform surprised me last week by telling me that he was not aware of that. Therefore, I am putting it on the record. In regard to crime and crime prevention, proper resources and facilities have to be provided if gardaí are to be able to deal with the areas of crime prevention and solving crime.

In respect of crime prevention, I strongly support the community policing concept, which Deputy McGrath highlighted. Seeing uniformed men and women of the Garda Síochána doing their job on our streets is the way forward. I often take a walk around Tallaght late at night and the gardaí often stop me to say hello.

Dropping off leaflets?

No, I do not drop off leaflets at 1 o'clock in the morning. We can easily criticise the gardaí for not being on our streets but we have to continue to emphasise to the Commissioner that it is important for our gardaí to be seen on the ground. I also believe, and I put down a Dáil question on this, that initiatives——

Do you have a question, Deputy O'Connor?

Of course, I have, Chairman. I am using the same style as the Chair allowed in the case of other colleagues.

The Deputy's comments have ranged very widely.

I have to learn from my more experienced colleagues.

Will the Deputy please ask his question? Time is limited. The Deputy should forget about the Bórd Fáilte advertisement.

I am following the same procedure as other speakers.

Deputy Ó Snodaigh was very precise - he just asked questions.

I do not have that skill yet. The Chair should allow me to do as other colleagues have been allowed to do. In relation to the issue I referred to, I believe more resources for community policing should be made available on the ground in places like Tallaght. That is my concern in that regard.

Other colleagues referred to drugs services. It is important that the Garda Commissioner understands the need to beef up the resources in that regard. I believe he should look at that. I also wish to ask about other initiatives in relation to crime prevention and crime solution. The mountain bike units and horse units are very important in areas such as Tallaght. The Commissioner has my absolute support in dealing with the problems arising in such areas. I believe there is strong support for the Garda on the ground. My concern is that the necessary resources will continue to be provided to facilitate co-operation between the community and the Garda.

I congratulate the Garda Commissioner on his appointment. With regard to armed crime, in what respects does he consider that stronger legislation is needed to help the Garda in the fight against crime? I commend the Garda on the bravery shown by members of the force in situations such as the armed robbery which took place last week. The people of Ireland are proud of the Garda.

I have no doubt that all of us echo those congratulations on the bravery of the two gardaí concerned in dealing with the recent armed robbery at a pub in south Dublin. Well done.

I will be brief. I join in congratulating the Commissioner and welcoming the Deputy Commissioner and Assistant Commissioner. Having listened carefully to my colleagues, I am not at all sure that the level of confidence is as poor as has been suggested from the other side of the room. The Garda deserves great commendation for its work. I take the view that, in combating crime, the Garda is only as good as the community with which its members work.

I welcome the comments of the Garda officers on the issue of missing persons. A great number of persons, including many women, are still on the missing list. Having regard to the attention which has focused on cases involving missing children in the UK and Ireland in recent years and manner in which the British police handled such cases, are we as adequately equipped in terms of prompt action to trace missing persons? I ask the Garda officers to comment further on that.

I welcome the Garda Commissioner and his colleagues and look forward to working with them. My question relates to the increase in prostitution, with particular reference to the fact that many young women are being brought to this country and introduced to the prostitution business. I ask the Garda Commissioner to indicate what is being done and what more can be done to tackle this growing problem.

Many of the questions relate to crime. I leave it to the Commissioner as to how he wishes to respond, but perhaps he will address the public order issues towards the end.

Mr. Conroy

Thank you, Chairman. Without the support of the public, the detection of crime would not be as good as it is. We constantly depend on the public for information in relation to crucial issues. Without that support, our level of success, in terms of our detection rate which is currently in the region of 40% of reported crime, would not be achieved. I would be disappointed if a large proportion of society had lost confidence in the Garda organisation. Having visited other countries to discuss policing methods with other police forces, I can say that we are equally good in terms of skills, training and equipment.

However, there are areas in which I would like to see improvement with regard to the detection of crime. I know the Minister and Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform are currently looking at those areas. I refer in particular to a DNA data bank which, I am confident, will come in due course. It will help, in no small way, in dealing with organised crime and gangland killings. Undoubtedly, we have a problem at present in terms of the number of guns out there. A number of speakers asked what we are doing about it. We are targeting known people. The individuals concerned are known to us and, no doubt, to public representatives who are in touch with their constituents.

However, getting the evidence requires rather more than knowing the individuals concerned. We have arrested those people on numerous occasions and questioned them for the permitted period. Our experience is that they will not tell us anything or account for their movements in general. While the number of those involved in criminal gangs may not be of major proportions, they constitute a serious problem. We are achieving some success in relation to some of the gangland killings. Within the last fortnight, a person was convicted in the courts in that regard and, while I know that the individual concerned was responsible for more than the one killing, our difficulty is to convert the available intelligence into evidence.

That is a major problem, not just in Ireland but in most democratic countries. While we cannot change that situation, we are targeting the individuals concerned with special patrols. Also, as part of a two-tier approach, we are investigating crimes they have committed and we are hopeful that such targeting will be a significant factor in crime prevention. However, that requires substantial resources where people are on the move 24 hours a day. Even to target one individual requires six or seven gardaí per eight hour tour of duty. That requires a great deal of resources and I do not have such resources.

However, I make the best use of the resources I have in terms of bringing in national units to support local Garda units, whether in Finglas, Crumlin, Limerick or wherever. We shift our resources to deal with the situation at a given time. Because of changing methods and modus operandi by criminals, we also have to change our operations. Regularly, in the course of debriefings of our people, we can see the need for change. We are changing in an effort to deal with the issues pertaining at a given time.

I may have lost track of some of the questions from members of the committee.

Perhaps the Commissioner's colleagues may wish to take some of the questions.

Mr. Conroy

On the question relating to fireworks, Deputy McGrath's comment with regard to prosecutions was quite valid. We have a specially targeted operation currently in progress and, indeed, we have had some success within the last four or five days where a large consignment of fireworks was seized in the Border area. I recognise that one seizure does not cure the problem, but we are working on it and I hope the elderly people concerned in the Deputy's constituency will not experience a problem during the coming Hallowe'en period. That is as much as we can say in that regard at this stage.

It is likely that supplies have already been stockpiled.

Mr. Conroy

That is possible. Deputies will be aware of the extent of the problem in Border areas.

I am referring to the known local suppliers. They are the people who should be raided and from whom they should be taken.

Mr. Conroy

I will look into that in Mullingar and if something can be done I assure the Deputy it will be done. I am sure the gardaí know about the local people as well but any help the Deputy can give will be welcome. I was not aware of this question until I came in here this afternoon. I will address that when I leave here.

Deputy Carey referred to the no-go areas in Finglas.

As far as I am concerned there are no no-go areas.

Mr. Conroy

Having worked in the area for many years and knowing the many decent citizens who reside there, I would be very sorry to hear if such a problem had occurred. I do not believe there are no-go areas in that neighbourhood.

There are areas of difficulty but they are small niches of difficulty.

People do not realise what is happening out there. It is terrible.

Mr. Conroy

Deputy Costello mentioned a case which was widely covered in the media today. When that was brought to our notice we set up an investigation. We sent a file to the Director of Public Prosecutions who directed that there be no prosecution. We instituted disciplinary charges against both members and one of the individuals indicated a plea of guilt on a charge of discipline, the other went to a tribunal inquiry and both were substantially fined.

Do we have regulations governing the procedures for jurykeeping or will they be introduced?

Mr. Conroy

In that area we provide gardaí to the courts. They are trained in how they should behave with jury members. They are sworn in and when they are on duty in the courts it is for the courts to engage them in the protection and welfare of the jury. In this case no discussions took place with any member of the jury about what happened in the court. That was the finding of an investigation carried out by a senior officer of the Garda Síochána.

There are some more questions to be addressed.

Mr. Conroy

There is very good co-operation with our colleagues in Northern Ireland. In the last two months we held a cross-Border meeting in County Cavan with our colleagues and several joint investigation teams were set up to deal with cross-Border crime. Since then several successful operations have taken place on this side of the Border and on the Northern Ireland side.

Petty crime has increased along the Border since the Good Friday Agreement but not substantially. The resources are made available to the local divisional officer who is based in Letterkenny but the allocation of those people is a matter for the Chief Superintendent there. I am not sure whether there is a manning problem in the stations the Deputy mentioned but I will look into this matter and maybe come back to the committee on that.

Yes, prostitution is a major problem and it is unfortunate that very young girls are being used by a certain number of criminals, particularly in Eastern Europe and in other European countries. Some of the girls are being moved around Europe very quickly, including several of those recently taken from premises in Dublin. People may say we were trying to prosecute those individuals. To the contrary, we were trying to protect those unfortunate young women who came into member states of the EU thinking they were going to take up employment in certain areas, but this did not happen and they were put to work as prostitutes. There is a problem and we are working on it. Operation Quest, which is ongoing, has had good results.

I know of no case where somebody has reported a crime to a Garda station and that case has not been recorded. I would be very disappointed if that was so. Once a crime is reported it is entered using the PULSE technology and as the investigation develops it may be categorised as a particular crime early on but may later have to be recategorised. That is why we have a continual review based on the information in PULSE. It may change from time to time but once the crime is reported it should be there on record, without doubt.

We are sending people to the United States to look at best practice for dealing with missing persons. We will do some work with the John Jay College of Criminal Justice and with the New York Police Department. We are disappointed that those unfortunate women mentioned by Deputy Hoctor have not been located. I continually appeal to the public because there are people out there who know the answer to the problem. It is a very difficult time for the families expecting somebody to come up with an answer. I have no solution to that but we will investigate any snippet of information that we receive and search any areas on which we receive information.

Deputy Ó Snodaigh asked about manslaughter and murder.

Mr. Conroy

My apologies. On that front when the report of a death comes into a Garda station it is investigated as a murder but it is not for the Garda Síochána to make the final decision on that. When we consider that it has been detected we send an investigation file to the Director of Public Prosecutions who decides the issue and on what charge it should be preferred. It may also happen that where a person is charged with murder the court decision might be one of manslaughter and the crime in the PULSE system is altered accordingly.

Deputy Costello raised the question of behaviour and discipline and the Garda Complaints Board versus the ombudsman. Do you want to comment on that?

I mentioned children from violent dysfunctional families and the fact that there was none of the 12,000 gardaí in evidence in my journey between Mayo and Dublin last night.

That is not——

Why is that not a question?

I asked about community policing.

To wind up, members have certain concerns for the community, the police and their actions. I ask Commissioner Conroy to comment on that and to wind up also because we are approaching the end of our allotted time.

You indicated, Chairman, that I could ask one question on public order offences which might be a good lead in for the Commissioner. I would like to know what level of priority the Commissioner will attach to public order offences and what level of importance he attaches to anti-social behaviour in urban areas throughout the country. I am not taking away from the important issues of serious crime which the Commissioner has already addressed, but my colleagues will know that I have been pushing this line with the Minister and others over the past few months.

For those of us at the coalface of the community, this can be most important type of crime. It can be worse than anything else for elderly people or those in disadvantaged areas because the more serious crime tends to be on a one to one basis, whereas this sort of crime can terrorise entire communities and neighbourhoods. To reiterate what Deputy Paul McGrath mentioned earlier, the proliferation of firecrackers is causing enormous problems. People in Limerick are now attaching not one but ten, 20 or 100 together and making mini bombs, bringing them into the middle of estates and terrorising those estates. For us, that is the face of crime as we confront it in our communities.

In one estate, incidentally, one woman had a heart attack when she heard such an explosion and is now in a very serious condition. The Garda officers in Limerick will bear that out. Bearing in mind what I have said, what importance does the Commissioner attach to these sorts of offences and will they retain that level of importance for the duration of his tenure in office?

I ask the Commissioner to answer those questions and conclude.

Mr. Conroy

Any public order issue that causes the citizens of any part of Ireland concern is of concern to me. Operation Encounter has been up and running since February 2002, and the figures on the detection of offences are encouraging in that they have shown quite a substantial decrease in the last nine months. I am concerned that we and the community at large should be doing much more to try to bring about peace and tranquillity in estates throughout the country.

Does the Commissioner have any particular initiative in mind?

Mr. Conroy

We have. Alcohol abuse is a major problem in most of those type of offences, and we have sent out a policy document to all our chief superintendents in recent times. They are, in conjunction with publicans and the community, trying to bring about change in the culture of drinking, particularly the acquisition of alcohol by young people and consumption in parks and public areas. If we could bring a major change in that type of area then peace should follow, but it will not happen overnight and is something we have to work hard on. We are doing that right now.

We commenced that operation in Cork and have noticed a major change in the public order situation there. It is now up and running throughout the country, and let us hope that, in time, it will bring about a major change.

There are a number of questions to which the Commissioner did not get around to replying.

Mr. Conroy

There were a number of questions about traffic and so on, but I might come back again to the committee on all that. If necessary I can give the Chairman a report within a week on the various issues I had proposed to talk about, which he can then distribute to members. I will ensure that happens if it is OK with you, Chairman?

If you would, Commissioner. If there are other questions that have been raised but not addressed, you might address those also through——

I wish to make a short point on the whole meeting and discussion here today.

Before the Deputy comments, the whole idea of the meeting was just to meet and greet and introduce the Commissioner and the committee to one another so that when items of major importance arise in the future the Commissioner will know us and will be in a position to come in and answer questions. That was the context of the meeting.

It was very rushed today. Crime is a big issue, as the Chairman, the committee, the public and taxpayers all know, so I want us to have a long-term working relationship to make sure that the justice committee and the Commissioner are dealing with the issue together. I know the Commissioner only has an hour, and we are very busy ourselves, but in the long-term there should be more interaction and more time for everyone to get a chance to get into the real issues.

I thank the Commissioner for coming in. I understand the difficult position he is in coming into a new job and so on. However, he might review the transcripts of the meeting and be able to reply in writing over the next week, ten days or whatever to some of the points raised. That would help us. Perhaps, then, on a longer term basis, he might have an informal discussion with the Chairman on how we can best do our business.

Maybe we should adopt a one-item agenda over a long period. Coming in with lots of items means the Commissioner is not able to respond adequately to us and we go away dissatisfied and all wanting to say our bit and so on. Maybe the Chairman could at some stage sit down with the Commissioner and his officials and work out the best way of handling such meetings so that it is of best value to the Garda, to us and to the public that we represent. They are putting the questions to us, and they are hard task masters and want us to get responses. In thanking the Commissioner and his officials for coming in, we should try to work out a method of getting business done in the most efficient manner in the future.

I thank the Commissioner, his deputy and assistant. I hope we will formalise the arrangement for the future. We have had a very ad hoc arrangement to date whereby occasionally we invite in the Commissioner. We should make it part and parcel of the business of this committee that the Commissioner would come in on a relatively regular basis as agreed between us——

On specific issues.

On specific issues, but in accordance with a timetable drawn up for the course of the year. We would expect that certainly not more than two months would go by without the Commissioner coming in to see us.

If the committee and the Commissioner are agreeable, he and I shall make contact and develop the relationship between the office and the committee.

Mr. Conroy

Okay.

I thank the Commissioner, his assistant and Deputy for attending. I am delighted to meet them and look forward to working with them in the future.

Sitting suspended at 3.35 p.m. and resumed at 3.40 p.m.
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