JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN’S RIGHTS debate -
Tuesday, 20 Jun 2006

Garda Reserve Force Draft Regulations: Presentations.

Chairman

The main purpose of this meeting is to discuss the Garda reserve force draft regulations that the Minister forwarded to the committee for its observations. In addition, the meeting has also been called to facilitate some of the Garda representative bodies which submitted requests to make oral presentations. The committee is happy to agree to those requests. We will hear presentations today from the four Garda representative bodies, the Garda Commissioner and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

The committee, having been directly involved in the passing of the Garda Síochána Act 2005, is well aware of the broad proposals. The Act, which attracted wide support in both Houses of the Oireachtas, includes a specific provision for the establishment of a Garda reserve force. The establishment of a reserve force has overwhelming political and public support. The Garda reserve force will be an important additional support for the Garda Síochána. It will improve and enhance its capability to respond to emerging policing challenges and will reinforce its links with local communities.

I led a delegation from this committee to England in 2005 to see how the reserve police force has been received there and how it interacts with the regular police force. The Minister has brought with him representatives from England and Canada and it will be of particular interest to hear details of their hands-on experience of integrating full-time and volunteer forces. It is no secret that there is concern among members of the Garda about the reserve force. While the Association of Chief Superintendents and the Association of Garda Superintendents have already engaged in constructive consultation on the draft regulations, the Garda Representative Association and the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors have not endorsed the proposals. This committee will be meeting with all the Garda associations today. It is vital that progress be made on this issue. We all want to see the concerns of the Garda addressed. Equally, we want to see the settled will of the Oireachtas being upheld. This is a great opportunity to enhance the policing service and I urge the Garda associations to take the opportunity now to make their contributions to influencing its development in a positive and constructive manner.

In regard to the arrangements for the meeting, the Minister will be invited to make a brief introductory statement to set the context for the draft regulations. Deputies Jim O'Keeffe and Howlin, as the main Opposition spokespersons, will make brief statements. I will then call, in the following order, the Garda Representative Association, the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors, the Association of Garda Superintendents and the Association of Chief Superintendents. Thereafter, I will invite the Garda Commissioner to make a statement on the draft regulations. Finally, I will invite the Minister to make his detailed presentation. Members of the committee will pose questions after each presentation. All of them will have an opportunity to make a few brief comments.

I invite the Minister to make a brief opening statement.

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy McDowell)

I thank the Chairman and members for the invitation to attend and for the opportunity to discuss the draft regulations governing the appointment of reserve members of the Garda Síochána. As the committee is aware, there is not a strict legal obligation to bring these draft regulations before it. In the circumstances, however, I thought it only right and proper, in respect of a matter of such importance, to undertake a broad process of consultation before finalising the proposals for the reserve and bringing the regulations to Government next month.

The Commissioner of the Garda Síochána has submitted proposals to me that envisage a reserve force with carefully selected powers and duties working under supervision of full-time professional members of the Garda Síochána. As part of those proposals, the Commissioner set out a programme of training for reserve force members of the Garda Síochána that will equip them to exercise those powers and fulfil those duties to the highest standard. The committee will also recall that the proposal to establish a Garda reserve force enjoys the support of nearly every party in the Oireachtas and opinion polls show that it has overwhelming public support. The Oireachtas acted wisely in providing for the establishment of a Garda reserve force because it will enforce links between the Garda Síochána and local communities and enhance the capacity of the force to respond to emerging policing challenges. I have seen how well special constabularies which are broadly equivalent to the proposed Garda reserve force work in Britain and how good and effective are the relations between them and the regular police force. It is a great opportunity to enhance the policing service in Ireland.

Speaking of how the special constabularies operate in Britain, I take this opportunity to welcome the deputy chief constable of Norfolk Constabulary, Mr. Simon Taylor, who has kindly agreed to attend this hearing and provide the committee with the benefit of his experience on the contribution the special constabularies have made to policing in England. I also welcome Assistant Commissioner Darrell LaFosse from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in Ottawa. Assistant Commissioner LaFosse will brief the committee on the experience of the auxiliary constable programme in operation in the RCMP and respond to any questions the committee may have in that regard.

The introduction of a Garda reserve force will enable ordinary members of the public from different walks of life the opportunity to serve their community in a new and positive way. There is a strong tradition of voluntarism in Irish society, evidenced by a wide range of social and sports organisations at the heart of Irish life. Volunteers also play vital roles in areas such as mountain rescue, the Irish Coast Guard and lifeboat service. Active citizenship is something the Government supports and on which the Taoiseach recently established a task force. Among its tasks is to recommend measures to facilitate and encourage greater engagement by citizens in all aspects of Irish life. The establishment of a Garda reserve force will provide an excellent opportunity for some citizens to become involved in the vital area of assisting in the policing of their communities and strengthening the link between the Garda Síochána and those communities.

The Garda reserve force will offer a learning opportunity for younger men and women who may wish to make a career as full-time members of our police force. Through service with the Garda reserve force, such people will be able to gain valuable experience working with full-time professional police officers. The reserve force will also provide an opportunity for continued involvement in the policing service by retired members of the force, for whom policing and serving the community have been a lifelong passion and vocation.

On top of the additional 2,000 full-time gardaí which the Government is recruiting and training, the extra resource of a well trained Garda reserve force with carefully selected powers and duties will significantly increase the capacity of the Garda Síochána to combat crime and disorder and provide the public with a sense of security and safety which they rightly demand and deserve. I am also considering the Commissioner's proposals for additional full-time gardaí.

I have set out in the next few pages of my script key points for the information of members. Rather than abuse the patience of the committee, I will simply say the bullet points deal with the main contents of the regulations, the qualifications for admission as a reserve force trainee, restrictions on appointment as a reserve force member, the quantity and nature of training, the fact that for an introductory period volunteer reservists will be on probation, a provision for cessation of service, a provision in regard to carrying out lawful orders, a provision in regard to duty and deployment, duties of the force, specific measures in regard to accompaniment of reservists on patrol, and powers of reservists. There are also extra provisions in regard to divisional liaison officers, provision for the payment of an annual allowance to members of the reserve and expenses for attendance at court and in regard to uniform and equipment. I have also supplied the committee with the draft admission and appointment regulations which I propose to make and which will have the effect of giving credit to future candidates for appointment as full-time members of the Garda Síochána for satisfactory service as a member.

It is my broad intention to bring the regulations, in the light of the input from this committee, the public and the representative associations, to the Government in the middle of July so as to allow for a joint full-time and reserve recruitment campaign in the months of August and September. I have met each of the Garda representative associations to discuss the Commissioner's proposals and the draft regulations. I have made it clear that I am genuinely open to any constructive proposals on the numbers, recruitment, training, powers, duties and deployment of reserve members. I particularly thank the Association of Garda Superintendents and the Association of Chief Superintendents for their positive engagement in discussions on the reserve force. I also thank the GRA and AGSI for meeting me and urge them to take a similar approach in order that we might have the full benefit of the knowledge and experience of their members.

The coming weeks will provide an opportunity for constructive engagement to ensure that the public interest, and the interests of the members of the representative organisations, will be served by establishing the best possible regulatory framework for the Garda reserve force. There will be a meeting of the Garda Conciliation Council tomorrow to continue the discussions on these matters in a formal setting. My officials have written to the GRA and AGSI and have offered to make themselves available for as many meetings of the council as necessary to complete the discussion on the draft regulations within the available timeframe.

In the meantime, the Commissioner is pressing ahead with arrangements to recruit and train reserve members. A joint full-time and reserve recruitment campaign will get under way in August. Tenders for an advertising campaign connected with that recruitment were sought recently on the Government e-tenders website. I also announced yesterday that among the new promotional posts being created in the Garda Síochána are those of chief superintendent and superintendent to deal with the reserve force.

I intend to seek Government approval for the making of these regulations next month because I am anxious to proceed with the early establishment of the Garda reserve force in the light of the input we anticipate and that we have already received. Accordingly, I would welcome any observations on the draft regulations that the committee or any of the representative associations might make in the coming weeks. I will carefully consider any observations prior to bringing the regulations before the Government. I would be happy to address any questions members might wish to pose in respect of the regulations and I deal with any points that arise on the basis of any remarks or submissions to the committee by other persons. If there are any questions about operational issues which flow from the regulations, the Garda Commissioner will deal with them.

Chairman

I will call first on Deputy Jim O'Keeffe and then on Deputy Howlin to make their contributions. I will also call Deputy Ó Snodaigh to make some brief comments.

Deputy J. O’Keeffe

On behalf of Fine Gael, I am glad to have this further opportunity of interacting with the Garda representative bodies and Commissioner Conroy on the Garda reserve force draft regulations.

Fine Gael has consistently supported the establishment of a Garda reserve force. We proposed and fully supported the scheme in our policy document on anti-social behaviour early last year. I see the reserve force as an important network of support personnel for fully-trained gardaí and as a helpful mechanism for providing ordinary gardaí with additional eyes and ears so that they can more efficiently and effectively carry out their duties.

This meeting is very important because it is clear that there should be parameters with regard to where such a force should operate. It should be clear where we as legislators envisage the use of the force as an integral support to buttress existing Garda resources and it also should be clear where we as legislators consider it inappropriate to have such a force used. In the main, Fine Gael sees a role for the Garda reserve force in situations such as high visibility patrolling in communities, crowd control, station management and general support for full-time members of the force.

I have made it clear from the outset and should stress that I do not believe Garda reservists should have all the powers of arrest that fully-trained gardaí possess. The principle behind the idea of a Garda reserve force is that its members should complement and not substitute for full-time members of the force. I do not see the Garda reserve as a top-up for Garda numbers or to be counted towards overall strength. The Garda reserve force must be viewed as one of a range of resources that must be provided to the Garda Síochána. That reserve force must be assessed as any other resource and should be created in tandem with other vital resources with which Fine Gael proposes to equip and transform the Garda.

I am delighted that delegates from the various Garda representative bodies are present. In my opinion, the implementation of the reserve force must be done in consultation not only with the Commissioner, who makes proposals, but also with those bodies. It must be made clear that consultation does not imply a veto. It does, however, imply full and genuine consultation on the details. I have, from the outset, initiated and maintained constant dialogue with the representative associations. They are in no doubt as to my position. They also know that I accept the very many important points they have raised on resourcing and how to deal with the current inadequate provisions for the Garda Síochána. Let me make it clear that I accept that the Garda reserve cannot be used as a replacement force for fully trained and experienced gardaí. Its role is solely to provide support.

In summary, the idea of a Garda reserve has considerable merit. The reserve can be of great benefit in fighting crime, controlling anti-social behaviour and ensuring people can feel safe in their homes and communities. Neither the Garda Representative Association nor the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors has a veto on this proposal, but they have a right to be fully consulted and informed on each step of the process. That is the only way the scheme can be a universal success. On that basis, I am delighted to engage with the representatives of both bodies.

Deputy Howlin

I am glad to have the opportunity to make a brief intervention at this point. I regard policing as one of the most important issues to be addressed, not only by this committee but also by the Oireachtas. Policing is a principal bulwark for a democratic society. We know there is considerable public anxiety from analysis and the feedback from people in the political parties who are pounding the streets. With that in mind, I published a Labour Party analysis for more effective policing entitled, Better Policing for Safer Communities. The focus of the document was on connecting the community better to policing, which is what I believe the Irish want.

From the enactment of the legislation the Labour Party has supported the concept of a Garda reserve. The reserve will have a supporting role — no more than that — in assisting the Garda Síochána. I regret the controversy that has surrounded this issue in recent times because I regard it as a distraction from the main issues — the most effective structure, disposition, manpower and resources for the Garda Síochána to meet the needs of a very different 21st century Ireland. We need to improve the structures put in place in 1922.

I am anxious to hear the views of the professionals, the representative associations of the Garda Síochána at each rank. They will have an important input to make in the details of how the reserve force will work in practice. I welcome the declaration by the Minister today that he has an open mind and a willingness not only to hear but also to act on any constructive proposals put to him. I hope there will be constructive engagement and that we can work towards a consensus on this issue in order that it does not continue to be a source of friction and controversy. Let me pose a question to the Minister as to whether that flexibility extends to the numbers involved and the timing of their deployment. In his contribution he seemed to be flexible on most other matters.

I welcome the principle of the dialogue that has begun between the Garda representative associations and this committee. While we might not have controversies on every issue, I hope the dialogue will continue because we need to grapple with the issue of effective policing.

Chairman

The Minister stated he was open to constructive proposals on numbers. That was the first item he mentioned.

Deputy Ó Snodaigh

I represent the only party which has come out against the Garda reserve. However, I am not in opposition to the employment of additional gardaí. The Minister referred to a manpower survey by the Garda inspectorate, in which it would make an assessment of future needs. We are jumping ahead of the inspectorate which has been appointed to carry out this task. The only case made so far is that for recruiting additional gardaí. The question is whether one produces a semi-trained half package which is what is being presented and for which we legislated in the Garda Síochána Bill which I opposed. The case for a reserve has not been made. The civilianisation process has not resulted in the required number of gardaí who can be freed from clerical duties in order that crime fighters can do the work for which they have been fully trained.

The Garda reserve is a gimmick which will be presented as addressing crime in society. The results will be negligible and cause more problems than the reserve seeks to solve. The State has not allocated sufficient resources to Garda stations, yet we are taking a decision to add to the numbers in them. Garda telecommunications and radio communications equipment is diabolical and we are exacerbating the problem by increasing the number working in stations.

It is regrettable that the Minister and the committee did not engage in the process of consultation or dialogue prior to the enactment of the legislation. We are now discussing the practicalities rather than whether it should have happened in the first instance.

Chairman

Let us suspend for a few moments while the Minister perhaps——

Deputy Howlin

Takes a back seat.

Chairman

——takes a back seat.

Sitting suspended at 4.38 p.m. and resumed at 4.39 p.m.

Chairman

I welcome the representatives of the Garda Representatives Association. Will Mr. Egan, the president of the association, please introduce his colleagues?

Mr. John Egan

I thank the joint committee for listening to our concerns. I am accompanied by the general secretary, Mr. P. J. Stone, and the vice president, Mr. Christopher Lee. I call on the general secretary to outline the position of the Garda Representative Association on the reserve force.

Mr. P. J. Stone

As the president stated, the joint committee sought a meeting with us. We did not seek this meeting. We believed, in respect of that invitation, that it would be churlish not to attend to outline the current position in which we find ourselves in terms of the Garda reserve. I hope members will bear with me. We are not seeking to delay the work of the committee, which we believe is entitled to do whatever it considers appropriate given all the circumstances and information in its possession. However, it is important I set out the position in which the association that I represent currently finds itself.

The only forum to which the staff association can present its position in respect of industrial relations issues is the Garda Conciliation Council. Members will be aware we are denied the right to appear before the Labour Court, a rights commissioner of the Labour Court or the Labour Relations Commission. This creates a difficulty for us in terms of trying to progress industrial relations issues.

The first and only opportunity to do so, despite all of the debate in respect of the Garda reserve, was presented to us on 30 May when the chairman of the council, Mr. Magner, accepted that he was obliged to make a decision on whether to allow further discussion and debate in respect of the Garda reserve in light of the fact that Dáil Eireann, in its wisdom, decided — we want to make absolutely clear that we have no difficulty with that decision — to establish a reserve force and to introduce relevant legislation in that regard. Our difficulties at this point relate to the draft regulations. These are the issues which we hope to discuss at the Garda Conciliation Council, the mechanism available to us to discuss industrial relations.

The chairman, at a meeting on 7 June, accepted that the reserve was an appropriate item for discussion and, as has already been advised to the joint committee by the Minister, has agreed to commence those discussions at 11.30 a.m. tomorrow. In my view, it would be wrong of the staff associations to engage with the Chairman and members of the joint committee on this issue because to do so would show total disrespect for the only forum available to us in this regard. We hope the committee will allow us to engage and participate in that forum and will agree to meet us again at a later date. We will, at that time, be happy to discuss the issues currently before the conciliation council. In deference to the chairman's decision, it would be absolutely wrong to discuss the issues outside that council.

I wish also to place on record that, as we understand it, we are the only group that has requested that independent research be undertaken in respect of the Garda reserve. The joint committee should have sight of a report, when finalised, which contains details in respect of the reserve forces as they operate in three European Union countries, namely, the UK, Holland and Germany. It is important that the joint committee view that report in the context of the information contained therein which, in my view, has not yet been put into the public arena. We will be presenting the findings of that report to the Garda Conciliation Council and, in that regard, I hope members will accept that our position is one of deference to the council and that we are not, in any way, trying to make matters difficult for the committee.

We believed that if we wrote to the committee secretariat and advised it of our position, members might have believed that we were being less than professional and were somehow or other not showing due deference to the joint committee. We have come here to advise members of the difficulties with which we are faced. We believe that, in the context of the debate on the Garda reserve, we have brought to the fore issues of general concern to the members we represent. Our members, despite the intent of parliamentarians to support the Garda Síochána on this proposal, believe — this is supported by independent research — it will have a demoralising effect on the professionalism of the force. That is the position with which we are faced in terms of the discussions tomorrow at the Garda Conciliation Council. I do no wish to delay the committee which we wish well in its deliberations, but in deference to it we believe it is only fair that we present our position to it in person.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Stone for his contribution. Notwithstanding all the caveats and conditions included therein, members may wish to ask some questions. Is Mr. Stone prepared to answer them?

Mr. Stone

I will try to address members' questions in so far as they do not encroach on conciliation issues.

Deputy J. O’Keeffe

I am glad Mr. Stone has outlined his position. Will he briefly indicate what is involved in the conciliation process and, more importantly, what timeframe is envisaged for the process in him being free to enter more open discussions? We would all like to see the report mentioned by him. When is it likely to be available? Will it be made available to legislators and, in particular, members of this committee?

Mr. Stone

Obviously, I hope we will not be under time constraints in respect of the issues to be addressed in the conciliation process but I do not view it as a never ending string. Personnel from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform have written to us indicating they are available, as are we. I will take guidance from the chairman on the timeframe set out by him and will be guided by it. It is not in my interests to procrastinate, despite the fact that people think that is what we are about. We want an opportunity to present all of the facts.

It would be a complete waste of time if legislators and those responsible for the bringing the regulations into effect did not receive a copy of the report. We are anxious to ensure members will receive a copy within the next two to three weeks.

Deputy Howlin

I welcome the presentation and understand the sensitivity in terms of timing in that discussions at the Garda Conciliation Council are scheduled to take place tomorrow. However, I am not clear on the GRA's position which I thought I understood before this meeting. Is the principle of a Garda reserve now an issue for debate? I am speaking about the detail of the regulations. Is that what Mr. Stone is saying, or is the GRA implacably opposed to the principle such that the detail will not be the subject matter of engagement?

Mr. Stone

On the conciliation council, the chairman has decided that the principle of a reserve is appropriate for discussion, as is the detail. Rather than pigeonhole myself, I would prefer to enter the discussions with an open mind with a view to making progress on all issues. I hope the discussions will be all-inclusive.

Deputy Howlin

I thought I understood the GRA's view on this issue before the meeting. Is Mr. Stone saying the GRA will remain open-minded in the conciliation process in its attitude and approach to the principle of the reserve and the detail?

Mr. Stone

Absolutely. We have never adopted any other attitude.

Deputy Howlin

I understood from my direct meetings with the GRA that it was opposed to the principle of the reserve.

Mr. Stone

I did not meet the Deputy.

Deputy Howlin

That is true.

Mr. Stone

Our position is simple. First, we must ensure issues of concern to the Garda Síochána are brought into the public arena. We believe that in any discussions on the reserve timing and appropriateness are key issues. We are prepared to engage, provided everything is on the table for discussion. That is what the chairman of the council has decided.

Deputy Hoctor

I welcome those representing the various associations. I have been vocal in my support for the GRA at this committee and in the House, so I was disappointed to hear the views expressed by Mr. Stone. A valuable opportunity is being lost in not hearing from the GRA because it is central to the future of the reserve. I am very disappointed.

Senator Cummins

The GRA made a reasonable point about conciliation council and has placed its cards on the table. In meetings with the Minister prior to the publication of these details, were assurances given in respect of the reserve force?

Mr. Stone

Yes. During the course of discussions on the Garda Síochána Bill, when we raised the difficulties relating to a Garda reserve, the Minister indicated that it was merely enabling legislation. He indicated that he did not see it happening in the lifetime of this or the next Government or during his tenure as Minister.

To be clear, we believed that the Oireachtas was merely giving a facility to the Garda Commissioner in the legislation to the effect that, when and if the circumstances warranted, the latter could seek to employ reservists. We believed that to be the position but it was obviously not the case. We have moved on from that and I did not raise it in any reference to the current position.

Senator J. Walsh

Who is the author of the independent report and who commissioned it? The GRA position is that it does not wish to engage in today's proceedings in deference to the chairman of the Garda Conciliation Council. Would the GRA, having outlined its position to the council, be in a position to return and debate the issue with the committee or is it stating that it will not engage with us until the conciliation process is concluded?

Mr. Stone

We engaged CIRCA, a body which cherishes its independence, to examine the Garda reserve and reserve forces in Europe and told it to take an open-ended approach in terms of including information in the report and making conclusions. It would not have taken the issue on board unless its independence was guaranteed.

We are anxious to have the opportunity to come again before the committee. We will ask the chairman of the conciliation council to indicate what he considers to be an appropriate timeframe in that regard. We would prefer if representatives from CIRCA, rather than us, presented the report to the committee because it could be suggested that we tainted or altered it to suit our purposes. When we are in a position to return, we intend to ask the committee to hear from the independent group we asked to research the matter.

Senator J. Walsh

Was the report commissioned and paid for by the GRA?

Mr. Stone

It was commissioned and paid for by us but we had absolutely no input into it. When CIRCA representatives met people from other police forces, they were unaccompanied. There were no members of the Garda Representative Association with them lest any suggestion would be made that we were bringing them to meet particular people with a certain outlook. The evidence CIRCA collated is invaluable and the committee should see it.

Senator Leyden

I have an interest to declare in that I have been nominated by both organisations to their representative group, the professional associations. Apart from this, my views are well known. I felt this was enabling legislation to allow this move to take place after the next general election and after full consultation. It was not included in the programme for Government between Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats after the last general election. The people did not vote for a reserve force and I see no support for it on the ground. We want to see more permanent gardaí, sergeants, inspectors and superintendents. The GRA and AGSI have co-operated in the civilianisation of the force which was included in the programme for Government.

Chairman

Does the Senator have a question?

Senator Leyden

The point is that they are here today and I am pleased that they are. They are not in a position to make any points on the issue because they will be involved in discussions tomorrow and I wish them well. They have acted on behalf of their members and, whether I have been nominated by them, I do not believe that in a country like Ireland we want these reserves. I do not particularly like them and do not want busy bodies joining them across the State.

Mr. Chris Lee

It is vitally important, from the point of view of the Garda Representative Association, that we come before the committee, answer questions, explain ourselves and make our views known. This is a public forum, about which everyone will know. Equally, it is important that members of the committee are able to engage formally for the first time with us and put their concerns to us. Our organisation wants to engage with the committee. Mr. Stone has outlined our position on conciliation which I hope the committee accepts.

Chairman

We thank the association for coming and appreciate its attendance. We will now hear from the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors. I welcome its president, Mr.Paschal Feeney, and his colleagues. Will he, please, introduce them?

Mr. Paschal Feeney

The Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors thanks the Chairman and the committee for the invitation and opportunity to appear before it today. I am accompanied by Mr. Joe Dirwan, general secretary, and Mr. John Redmond, deputy general secretary.

Our position is exactly the same as that of the GRA. Tomorrow morning we will both appear at the joint conciliation council consequent on the chairman's ruling on 7 June that the principle of the Garda reserve is appropriate for discussion at the council. As the Minister only laid the draft regulations before the council on 30 May, the first opportunity the chairman had to examine the matter was on 7 June when he ruled that we would adjourn until 11.30 a.m. tomorrow.

I will outline some of the historical background from the time the Bill came into being until today. We would not be in this impasse if the correct industrial relations procedures had been followed. At all times the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors has expressed its principled objection to the use of virtually untrained volunteer members in the extremely testing role of policing. We tried to have this principle discussed at the only industrial relations forum available to us, the Garda conciliation and arbitration scheme.

When the Garda Síochána Bill was being drafted in 2003, our association had two meetings with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and his officials. These meetings were by way of briefing on the content of the Bill, in respect of which we have made several detailed observations. At all times, we outlined our objections in principle to the concept of untrained volunteers carrying out the difficult task of policing. We believe that the principle of the reserve was appropriate for the conciliation council as provided for in clause 18(h) of the revised Garda Síochána conciliation and arbitration scheme.

The Minister assured us that the legislation was merely enabling in nature and that the reserve force would not come into effect in the lifetime of this Government or of that which will succeed it. The Act became law in 2005 and the first notice of the intention to proceed with the Garda reserve, as indicated to the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors, AGSI, was the Minister's announcement to the media at the Garda College in Templemore on 13 October 2005 of his intention to proceed. In December 2005, the Garda Commissioner informed the association that he had received a Government directive to recruit 900 reservists by September 2006. Prior to that there was no mention of a Garda reserve in the draft policing plan for 2005 or in the corporate strategy documents up to 2007. The views of the association were sought on both documents.

We sought and were granted a meeting with the Minister on 23 January 2006 and we asked that the principle of the Garda reserve be brought to the Garda Conciliation Council for negotiation and possible resolution. At that stage, the Minister refused and stated that the Oireachtas had determined the principle. We had subsequent meetings, on 23 March 2006 and 21 May 2006, with the Minister and his officials. The Minister again informed us that the Oireachtas had determined the principle. On 30 May, the Minister finally laid the draft regulations relating to the reserves before the conciliation council for our views on the implementation only. Following submissions by the Garda Representative Association, GRA, and the AGSI, the chairman of the council ruled on 7 June that the principle was appropriate for the council to consider and then adjourned proceedings until 11.30 a.m. tomorrow.

Our position is the same as that of the GRA, namely, that, in deference to it and its chairman we must appear before the Garda Conciliation Council tomorrow to determine our views on the principle of the reserve. If this committee affords us the opportunity to return to make our submissions on this matter, we are at all times open to discussion. Our letters to the committee indicated that we are anxious to address every forum on the reserve. We did not anticipate the decision of 7 June, hence the impasse in which we find ourselves.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Feeney for that presentation. Our remit does not include industrial relations and we do not wish to become involved in them. We are considering what the Oireachtas has asked in respect of this proposal but the conciliation process falls outside our remit.

Deputy J. O’Keeffe

I understand Mr. Feeney's and the AGSI's feeling of a breach of trust because of the assurance that the Garda reserve would not be introduced during the lifetime of the Government. That was the wounded reaction I received from representatives of both associations in my initial meetings with them. Whatever about the Minister's assurance regarding the introduction of the reserve during the lifetime of the Government, I question the basis of any commitment he might give in that regard in respect of the next Government. We will, however, leave that aside for now.

We have begun a formal interaction at committee level. Mr. Feeney explained the association's position in respect of the conciliation council and the industrial relations matters arising. It is important, however, that he should be aware of our views and the support that exists in the Oireachtas regarding the establishment of the reserve to support the members of his association. We are quite prepared to discuss the detail of its implementation.

Am I correct in believing that Mr. Feeney will go to the conciliation council, that he will return to us thereafter with an open approach to this issue and that no preconditions will be imposed? In that way we may soon discuss where to take the proposal from here.

Mr. Feeney

We cannot predetermine what will happen at the conciliation council. Regardless of whether there is agreement or disagreement, we have committed ourselves to returning to the committee to make our submission.

Deputy Howlin

There is a great deal more to be said on the clear position set out by both organisations that wish to hold their fire until after tomorrow's meeting. I welcome their fresh approach, which has put everything on the table and which will allow engagement, in an open-minded way, with the conciliation council. That is a positive move. This committee and the Oireachtas will have regard to whatever emerges from any joint conciliation process but policy is ultimately determined by the Legislature and the Executive that advises it. The Oireachtas will vote on what should happen.

I share Deputy Jim O'Keeffe's concern because I sense that, in their initial discussions, the Department and the Minister misled the associations. That is to be greatly regretted because it has contributed to making something more controversial than might have been the case had there been interaction and dialogue. The select committee will devote significant time to legislation in the run-up to the end of the Dáil term. I would, however, welcome the opportunity to revisit this issue, hopefully when a path has been worked out, through the machinery available to the associations, that will bring us to a point at which we will all feel comfortable. Prodding the associations on this issue now might run counter to achieving that objective.

Senator J. Walsh

The AGSI represents people at senior level in the force. Does it accept that it is obliged to comply with the will of the Oireachtas? Otherwise, there will be anarchy.

Mr. Feeney

In our negotiations with the Minister, and at every forum that we have addressed and before which we have appeared, we have stated that we neither advocate breaking the law nor tolerate our members doing so and that we will at all times uphold the will of the Oireachtas. That is our firm position.

Chairman

Are there any further questions for the representatives of the association?

I thank the representatives of the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors and the Garda Representative Association for coming and informing us of their position on the Garda reserve force.

Sitting suspended at 3.10 p.m. and resumed at 3.12 p.m.

Chairman

I welcome the representatives of the Association of Garda Superintendents. Its president, Mr. Noel McLoughlin, is involved in serious investigations in north Dublin and I wish him and the Garda well in resolving the matter. The association is represented by its vice president, Mr. Tom Neville, whom I invite to introduce his colleagues.

Superintendent Tom Neville

I thank the committee for inviting us and look forward to engaging with it on the proposed reserve force. Mr. Tony Kennelly is our general secretary and Mr. Tom Commons our treasurer. I ask Mr. Kennelly to make the presentation.

Superintendent Tony Kennelly

The Association of Garda Superintendents favours the establishment of a Garda reserve in principle for the following reasons. It is enshrined in legislation and part of a solution to counteract our resource deficiencies. It has attractive elements, including the practical expression of democracy working in law and order. It represents the independent, voluntary commitment of the community to enhancing a policing service lacking in numbers. It will allow local people to interact with the Garda and work with it for the good of the community. It will I hope spawn a greater spirit of voluntarism in communities. The association sees the role of the reserve as community based. If managed effectively, it will enhance our capacity to respond to emerging policing challenges and lead to a more visible presence on the streets and thus an increased crime deterrent and an enhanced relationship with the community.

The effectiveness of the reserve will be decided by a number of parameters, including an effective training programme. The regulations stipulate that reservists will receive 128 hours of training. For the regular force there are 62 weeks of intensive training in the Garda College, as well as on the job training, divided into five phases. Phase 1 involves 20 weeks training in the Garda College, phase 2 involves 22 weeks training as observers, while phase 3 comprises a further 16 weeks training. Only on successful completion of these three phases are gardaí given powers under legislation. Phase 4 involves 36 weeks training and phase 5, four weeks.

The effective management and supervision of reserve personnel will also influence the effectiveness of the reserve and are paramount to its efficiency. The Garda management system is overloaded. There is no spare capacity, therefore, to manage the extra responsibility of the reserve. Without sufficient resources of sergeants and inspectors being put in place, the efficiency of the reserve will be affected. In the Thames Valley in Britain there are 4,100 police officers and 3,000 support staff. It is proposed that the Garda Síochána will have 14,000 police officers and 1,200 support staff. A full evaluation should be carried out to ensure each superintendent is provided with sufficient management support. As the reserve will comprise voluntary personnel, it should have its own independent code of discipline, with effective sanctions.

A reasonable timeframe for the introduction of the Garda reserve is important. Its introduction will mark a significant cultural change for the Garda Síochána and require a bedding-in period for the regular force and the reserve. There is a need for a high level consultation process at all levels of the force. Otherwise the proposals may fail. There should be an effective performance management system that links the performance of reservists to the granting of legal powers under legislation. The people concerned will only receive a maximum of 128 hours training, whereas members of the force receive 62 weeks.

Deputy J. O’Keeffe

It is long time since some of us were marching around in the FCA. Will Mr. Kennelly give us his assessment of the adequacy of the proposed training, which comprises a two-day induction course, 56 hours in phase 2, two days of role play and self-defence and 40 hours at a nominated Garda station followed by graduation. Is this adequate basic training to establish somebody as a member of the Garda reserve?

I have always held the view that members of the Garda reserve should not have the same powers as a full-time member of the force. Although this is provided for in the Act, the proposals from the Commissioner will limit the powers of members. Are Mr. Kennelly and the association satisfied that a Garda reservist trained in the manner outlined will be adequately trained to exercise the limited powers the Commissioner is now proposing?

My third question relates to the timeframe involved. Does the association consider that a phased approach would be best, or should this begin with large numbers?

Superintendent Kennelly

The training period is 128 hours. The Association of Garda Superintendents believes this is not sufficient to give reserve force members an adequate knowledge of their responsibilities and the impact and effect of the powers they will have in the execution of their duties. The view of the association is that they should have very limited powers initially and that the granting of powers to members of the reserve force should be conditional on a structured performance evaluation system.

Deputy J. O’Keeffe

Who would carry that out?

Superintendent Kennelly

It would be carried out internally. The granting of powers should be a gradual process over a period of time as members become more experienced and acquire a better knowledge of the culture of the Garda Síochána and policing

Deputy J. O’Keeffe

What about the timeframe involved?

Superintendent Kennelly

The introduction of a reserve force will have a big impact on the Garda Síochána. It will be a massive cultural change for every member of the Garda and civilians coming into the reserve force. The Association of Garda Superintendents believes, therefore, that the reserve force should be phased in on a pilot basis initially to enable any teething problems to be teased out.

Deputy Howlin

At least with the association we can deal with the regulations. After the last contributor I feel somewhat inadequate in putting any question. Unlike my Fine Gael colleague or the Minister, I have never served in the FCA. However, that is not a disqualification.

Deputy J. O’Keeffe

We might send the Deputy on a course.

Deputy Howlin

That is what I would be afraid of. Superintendent Kennelly has mentioned that the current structure is experiencing what he classified as management overload. Has the association had an opportunity to examine in detail the announcement by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform yesterday regarding a number of new senior management appointments in the midlands? Does it believe this will provide the required management structure, or will an additional management input be required to manage the Garda reserve force? Does it have any views on the scale and nature of that management cohort?

My second question relates to the issue my colleague, Deputy O'Keeffe, began to tease out, that is, the notion of effective training. Superintendent Kennelly has indicated he does not believe the training regimes outlined in the draft regulations are adequate. What would he deem adequate?

My third and final question relates to the code of discipline for the reserve force. The superintendent talks about it being independent. What sort of code of discipline does he have in mind and does he have a view on who would enforce it? Would the Garda Síochána or an independent body enforce discipline and sanctions against a reservist?

Superintendent Kennelly

The Association of Garda Superintendents welcomes yesterday's announcement of an increase in the ranks. However, it believes this increase is to meet existing demands.

Deputy Howlin

Is that the figure of 14,000 or the current level of deployment?

Superintendent Kennelly

The current figure of 14,000.

Deputy Howlin

It will be 14,000 from the end of next year.

Superintendent Kennelly

Yes. The Association of Garda Superintendents is of the view that there will be a need for additional sergeants, inspectors and civilian staff to support the introduction and effective management of a reserve force.

Deputy Howlin

Does the superintendent have any idea of numbers?

Superintendent Kennelly

No, it will depend on the size of the reserve force. I will refer again to Thames Valley Police. It has 4,100 permanent police officers and more than 3,000 civilian support staff. The Garda Síochána has a predicted membership of 14,000 and 1,200 civilian support staff. These figures may increase.

Chairman

I am sure the process of civilianisation is ongoing.

Deputy Howlin

Will the superintendent deal with the issue of training and discipline?

Superintendent Kennelly

A number of Acts of the Oireachtas are very demanding of Garda time. They deal with road traffic and public order offences. A minimum of two weeks' training would be required in respect of these alone.

Deputy Howlin

It might be useful to the committee if the association submitted a paper to it setting out its view on what would be the optimum training schedule. Would that be possible?

Superintendent Kennelly

Yes, it would. In regard to the code of discipline, when I mentioned that it would be independent, I meant that it would be independent of the existing Garda disciplinary regulations. This code of discipline would be implemented and enforced by the Garda Síochána.

Deputy Ó Snodaigh

I thank Superintendent Kennelly for his presentation in which he has raised a number of questions. Is the association concerned about the rapid introduction of a reserve force, contrary to the Minister's initial position that it would not be introduced and that the legislation was only an enabling measure? Would the association have preferred to have carried out a manpower survey or an assessment of need of the number of gardaí required and future trends in policing on the island and to have had the Garda inspectorate up and running to address these? The Minister stated this should be one of the earliest tasks to be carried out. Would the association's preference be for that to be carried out first rather than be in the position it is in today with draft regulations for the reserve force seemingly thrown together in a rush to satisfy the Minister's agenda?

Superintendent Kennelly

As far as the Association of Garda Superintendents is concerned, once the legislation is enacted, it will be a matter for the Government. We must accept its will. When it decides to implement specific legislation, matters are out of our hands. The boss is the Houses of the Oireachtas.

In regard to the timeframe involved, the Garda Síochána Bill was enacted in 2005. Shortly after that we received a working document on the proposal to introduce a reserve force. From then on we knew it was coming down the line. We would all like more time, but that is a matter for the Government. We cannot dictate the timing to it.

Senator Cummins

Let me clarify a point for the association. It was informed in July that a reserve force would be introduced sooner rather than later.

Superintendent Kennelly

We received the working document in July 2005 on the establishment of a reserve force. The flag was waved at that stage and we knew a reserve was on the cards from then on.

Senator J. Walsh

While it seems a good idea that the reserve should have its own code of discipline, why should it not be covered by the existing code? It is interesting to note the representatives are calling for a phasing in of powers. This strikes me as being related to the various stages of training. Does Mr. Kennelly envisage a scenario in which inductees would receive initial phase 1 training and, as they gained experience, move to phase 2? Training could be provided over a period of 12 months to two years and, in each phase, grow more intense, given the elevated responsibilities inductees would have.

I agree with Mr. Kennelly that the bedding-in of the reserve will require a cultural change, especially in the light of opposition in the ranks. It will be important that everybody supports the reserve when it is introduced. What precisely does Mr. Kennelly mean by "bedding-in"?

Superintendent Kennelly

The personnel who will join the reserve will be volunteers and there will be no sanctions under the existing system in the event of a breach of regulations or a failure to observe the code of discipline. The only sanction open will be a loss of reputation due to dismissal or suspension. Therefore, it will be important to establish an effective, separate code of discipline for the reserve.

The provision of further powers for reserve members should be conditional on the completion of on the job training at grades 1 to 3. Reserve forces in Great Britain, especially the Merseyside force, use a gradual process to create effective reserve constables. The system is based on training, experience and performance evaluation.

On the bedding-in period, it is natural in any organisation which faces significant change that there will be difficulties. While we all say we are in favour of change, deep down nobody likes it. Necessarily, there will be a period of acclimatisation. Therefore, it is essential to obtain the co-operation of the force to ensure there is a cooling-off period.

Chairman

Is there an Irish language requirement specified in the regulations?

Superintendent Kennelly

Irish or English.

Chairman

What does Mr. Kennelly mean by that?

Superintendent Kennelly

There is a requirement to have two languages.

Chairman

Does it include a requirement to be proficient in Irish?

Superintendent Kennelly

No.

Deputy Howlin

Applicants must be proficient in two languages, one of which must be English or Irish.

Deputy F. McGrath

I welcome the association's members. Does Mr. Kennelly agree that at least 70% of the solution to counteracting resource deficiencies is the provision of more full-time gardaí in communities? Reference to the voluntary commitment of communities to enhance a police reserve which lacks numbers brings us back again to personnel resources. Many of us feel, having listened to police officers in the European Union, as well as gardaí, that a reasonable Garda force would have not 14,000 but 16,000 members.

While we all support the concept of a community-based Garda reserve, does the association share my concern that many of those recruited may be third level graduates rather than from disadvantaged areas? The most significant problems in policing and building trust in communities arise among the poorest sections of society. Will there be a barrier to recruiting people from socially disadvantaged communities which need to be involved in policing to make it work? It has happened in other jurisdictions that a high percentage of those who join the reserve are third level graduates.

Superintendent Kennelly

There is an insatiable need for resources in policing on foot of modern trends and the tiger economy which has led to greater demand for police services. There is a need for a voluntary sector in every aspect of Irish life, including policing, health and social services. Given the voluntary contribution on a minor scale to special Garda projects which we have operated in the past 14 years, having a voluntary sector in policing is not a novel idea.

On disadvantaged communities and graduates, a great deal will depend on how the system is managed.

Deputy F. McGrath

Will there be an important role for people from estates riddled with drugs and intimidated by drug barons? Should there be a strong emphasis on recruitment from those communities of people who might not necessarily have the third level qualifications people from other parts of society possess?

Superintendent Kennelly

It will be essential to recruit in such areas. The recruitment of personnel for a reserve force will be based on need and demand rather than on some other novel concept. As it will be based on the practical need for police services in particular areas, local people found suitable would be the best choice. While there is a provision that personnel should not serve in their own area, they could be recruited from adjacent areas.

Chairman

I thank Superintendents Neville, Kennelly and Commons for attending, making a presentation and answering questions from members. We will now hear from the Association of Chief Superintendents, whose representatives I welcome. Will Chief Superintendent Murphy introduce his colleagues?

Chief Superintendent Michael Murphy

I am accompanied by our general secretary, Mr. Liam Quinn, and the assistant general secretary, Mr. Louis Harkin. I am based in Wexford. The association is delighted it has been invited to make a submission to the committee.

It is the view of the association that where the will of the people is enshrined in legislation by the Oireachtas, our members will comply with the provisions set out. The Garda Síochána Act 2005 allows for the establishment of a Garda reserve and, as such, the association supports the concept and will co-operate fully in its introduction. We have had discussions with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, his senior officials, the Garda Commissioner and his officers and outlined some issues which give rise to concern from a management perspective. Before I outline these concerns, I inform the committee that our discussions are ongoing and progress has been made. No later than this morning, we received further information from the Department on behalf of the Minister.

It has been estimated that the reserve will reach 4,000 members, which would represent approximately 30% of a Garda force of 14,000. In other police forces, the reserve is capped at between 7% and 10% of the respective force. There are 25 operational divisions in the Garda Síochána and if a reserve of 4,000 were divided between them, each division would receive 160 members of the reserve. This would translate into approximately 32 per Garda district. In some country districts there would be more reserves than full-time officers and if the reserves were to be deployed at peak periods, especially on outdoor duties, each member of the full-time force would have to supervise more than one member of the reserve.

We see problems with areas of discipline, with different sanctions being applied to reserve members vis-à-vis members of the full-time force, such as the ability to fine members of the full-time force up to four weeks pay and the ease with which a member of the reserve can resign or be dismissed without any real loss compared with the consequences of resigning or dismissal for a member of the full-time force. From discussions with the Minister and his officials, the Garda Síochána Act applies to the reserve as well as to the full-time force and some of our reservations have been allayed.

Garda Code 7.5, which prohibits members of the force from working where they live if certain conditions are not fulfilled, will not apply to the reserve. We see a situation where full-time members may take legal action on equality grounds which could see the Commissioner's policy in this area overturned.

We can also perceive difficulties in health and safety and the duty of care which we will owe to members of the reserve working up to 65 years of age on patrol and other duties, and the level of medical examination requirements being introduced in this area. Today, however, we received correspondence from the Minister addressing this area. We can see a further difficulty in vetting some applicants who apply from some less developed countries where background checks may be difficult to carry out or verify.

There are other seemingly simple areas. Can the reserve members walk or drive to their stations in uniform and, if so, how will members of the public know if they are on or off duty as the uniforms will not be easily discernible from the ordinary full-time uniform? If they cannot, there could be a problem in providing up to 30 lockers in our present stations and if lockers are provided they will have to be personal, with names clearly displayed to comply with current directions. There will also be difficulties with parking and toilets. I am sure, however, these problems can be resolved in time.

We received an indication from the Minister this morning that members will be able to walk to stations in uniform. This means that although they are in uniform, they will not be on duty. That is a serious problem. The reserves will not enjoy the protection of the law as members of the Garda Síochána if they are assaulted. These are the areas that cause us concern from a management point of view that can be further discussed.

The Association of Chief Superintendents is not a policy making body but it is to be tasked with the management of an initiative that is being totally opposed by the two principal associations that represent the majority of the members of the Garda Síochána. We are not party to any discussion with a view to resolving this impasse.

Our association has undertaken an intensive study of similar policing practices in Britain. This study shows there are significant differences from those proposed in Ireland and we will give our perspective of what we saw in Britain last week. Our examination of the Merseyside experience, where we received full co-operation from the Merseyside police force, is a case in point. The special constabulary there has existed for 175 years and works well in parallel with the regular force. The basis for the high levels of co-operation between the two are based on a number of basic principles. The reserves have exactly the same powers as the regular force and they are fully attested officers with warrant cards the same as those of the regular force, with the exception of the word "special" being included on it. They have police powers on and off duty. They wear the same uniform and they do not substitute for regular officers. They work side by side with their regular colleagues and their primary role is on-street policing.

Their training is based on the fit-for-purpose principle, where they have the same training as projected for our reserve but they are trained for the job they will do. If a reserve has IT skills, he will be trained in IT for the station, utilising his knowledge for the advantage of the force.

Reserves drive police cars and they have full access to police information systems. They complete their own returns, process their own court work and their activities are fully computerised and documented. They provide valuable assistance in providing a visual police presence that otherwise would not be possible. They are provided with a training and operational budget and their role is firmly established and recognised within the wider community, with many organisations providing time to their employees to enable them to fulfil their roles as special constables. If a hospital needs security on its grounds, it may give time to an employee to join the police reserve and then let him or her work in the hospital grounds with police powers free of charge.

A substantial number of the volunteers come from the universities, as the work is perceived as being interesting, although Liverpool is a university city, so it does not happen everywhere. The work is seen as exciting and provides valuable life skills to participants. They bring to the police service many vital skills, including personnel management, IT, teaching experience, scientific knowledge and languages. The role of the special police is recognised as a source of valuable contribution to the community. The policing problems that are associated with social issues in British communities mirror closely those being experienced in this country — alcohol and drug abuse, vandalism, intimidation and criminal damage.

The reserves make up approximately 10% of the regular force in the Merseyside area. They are not treated as second class citizens and service is regarded as an advantage to those who wish to join the regular police — 87% of specials want to be regulars. The Home Office advertises aggressively for recruits and in this regard, the reserve is in competition with some 1,200 organisations providing services for the voluntary community in Liverpool. They are sworn members of the police force and are subject to the same disciplinary sanctions, except fines — because they are not paid — as other members. The same situation will obtain in this jurisdiction. They have their own rank structure and insignia but are under the control of the regular police force.

We met the chief officer — an assistant chief constable — and a chief superintendent from the reserve constabulary. They are impressive people who see themselves only as professional aides to the police. They never assume responsibility for the investigative work carried out by ordinary police officers or fulfil any of the duties of regular members of the force. They accompany regular police officers as back-up.

There are three grades within the special constabulary. Those in grades one and two must be accompanied on duty by someone at grade three or by a regular police officer. Those at grade three are permitted to patrol unaccompanied.

Deputy Howlin

Are the grades defined by period of service?

Chief Superintendent Murphy

They are defined by period of service, experience and evaluation.

No litigation has succeeded against a member of the Merseyside police special constabulary, which is extraordinary. It has a dedicated training manager and, outside of those from universities, most of its volunteers come from the service industry. Those whose service is unsatisfactory, according to defined criteria, are not retained. Volunteers serve a one-year probationary period. Under our regulations, this period will be for two years. The age limits for entry are between 18 and 50 years, with compulsory retirement at 55 for lower grades and at 60 for those holding the rank of inspector or above. These limits are likely to be extended due to pending EU age discrimination legislation.

Members police their own areas. The special constabulary is popular because it is perceived to deliver a good service to its community. Selection is by interview, with the same criteria applying as those relating to the regular service. The male to female ratio is approximately 50:50. That is not contrived, it breaks down that way. Recruitment from ethnic minorities is encouraged.

Training is broadly similar to that proposed for the Garda reserve. The role of the reserve is to supplement not replace that regular police force. If, for example, a hospital provides a volunteer from its staff to train as a special constable, it will be facilitated with the service of that officer to protect its property. There must be full and unequivocal support from the community and public representatives for the concept that policing is a business and that the police need help.

The recommendations emanating from our discussions with those we met favour the establishment of this initiative as a pilot to iron out any problems before it is rolled out to the wider community. They suggested, and, after discussion, we agreed, that a major city such as Dublin would be the ideal location for a pilot scheme.

The special constabulary force has a small administrative unit, responsible for its own logistics, which works in co-operation with the regular force on matters of deployment and priorities. It carries out staff satisfaction surveys and benchmarks its performance across the regular force. There are many issues to be resolved for an initiative of the magnitude of that proposed in respect of the Garda reserve. It can be successfully implemented only with the full and active co-operation of all the stakeholders involved and must be properly financed and resourced.

Chairman

I thank Chief Superintendent Michael Murphy. The trip to Merseyside seems to have been a positive experience.

Chief Superintendent Murphy

Yes, it was.

Deputy J. O’Keeffe

By remarkable coincidence, my informal investigation of this matter also focused on the Merseyside police. During a trip to Anfield to see Liverpool FC play, I took the opportunity to talk to some of the police officers outside the stadium. It is helpful to have Chief Superintendent Michael Murphy's somewhat more detailed report.

The chief superintendent referred to special constables as being part of an unpaid reserve in the United Kingdom that dates back almost 200 years. Did he come across the police community support officers? I spoke to some people with that label who seem to offer a different kind of support. It is my impression, from the chief superintendent's comments and from papers we received on the position in the UK, that the norm is that 10% of total police numbers are made up by reserves. Are we biting off more than we can chew in aiming for 4,000 in proportion to our total numbers?

Is there a career structure similar to that in the Fórsa Cosanta Áitiuíl, FCA, whereby one became a lieutenant, commandant or captain?

Deputy Howlin

Deputy Jim O'Keeffe is very hung up on the FCA.

Deputy J. O’Keeffe

I am drawing on my limited experience in an associated area. On Merseyside, are there reserve inspectors and superintendents? What is the highest rank that can be held by a member of the reserve?

Chief Superintendent Murphy

Community service officers have no police powers whatsoever. They are engaged in the community, where they operate as the eyes and ears of the police and liaise with members of the public.

Deputy J. O’Keeffe

Do they wear uniforms?

Chief Superintendent Murphy

Yes and they are paid. However, they are not police officers.

Deputy J. O’Keeffe

Does Chief Superintendent Michael Murphy know how many there are or what ranks they hold?

Chief Superintendent Murphy

No. In respect of our proposed numbers, we should run a pilot reserve scheme from which we can learn and then decide where it fits into our structure before making any final decision on numbers. Grades one, two and three refer to special constables. Those at grade one cannot go out alone and those at grade two are also restricted. However, officers at grade three level can go out alone.

Deputy J. O’Keeffe

It is like the one, two and three star privates in the FCA. What is the position further up the line?

Chief Superintendent Murphy

On Merseyside, the chief officer has the rank of assistant chief constable, there is a chief superintendent, an inspector and sergeants. Those people are in charge of reserve constables only. They cannot tell a regular police officer what to do but a regular police officer can tell them what to do. They see regular police officers as the professionals whom they support.

Deputy Howlin

The chief superintendent is welcome although I am not sure who is looking after Wexford while he is here. Has he worked out the optimum number of reserves to be deployed? If, for example, a pilot scheme is put in place in Dublin, would it be the case the number of reserves would represent 10% of the permanent members deployed in the area?

Chief Superintendent Murphy

Yes.

Deputy Howlin

I understand that the chief superintendent spoke this morning with officials of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Have the discipline issues been resolved to his satisfaction or are there outstanding matters on the code of conduct?

Chief Superintendent Murphy

There are outstanding matters in regard to some aspects of the reserve. Following the discussion with the Department, I am aware that the Garda Síochána Act 2005 covers the reserve members. If a reserve member was to commit a minor offence, for example, if he or she was to be uncivil to a member of the public and then left the reserve force, would we be able to follow that person into civilian life to discipline him or her? With the Garda Síochána I am told we can.

Deputy Howlin

Would one want to? It strikes me that one would have better things to do.

Chief Superintendent Murphy

At the more serious end one would. Otherwise it would create a precedent, whereby people could create a problem for us. A member of the reserve force in committing an indiscretion, serious or otherwise, would leave a slur on the regular force and the reserve if it was not dealt with.

Deputy Howlin

I see the point which is well made and important. For serious matters such as assault, the normal criminal law would apply.

Chief Superintendent Murphy

I am talking about disciplinary matters.

Deputy Howlin

Mr. Murphy voiced concerns about background checks, particularly given the difficulty in less developed countries. The regulations allow members to be drawn from EEA countries or the Swiss Confederation. I presume the citizens of the Swiss Confederation would be Swiss guards and that all member states would readily undertake background checks. Is there a concern that EEA states would not be able to——

Chief Superintendent Murphy

I am talking about less developed countries in which records may have been destroyed.

Deputy Howlin

The regulations will prescribe that the members must be EEA or Swiss citizens. If a person originally came from another country, he or she would have to become an Irish citizen to join.

Chief Superintendent Murphy

Yes. Our reservations are not as strong as they were because we can see a way around the problem in the way the United Kingdom deals with it for its special constabularies. If it comes up against a blank wall in vetting, the onus transfers to the person seeking membership to satisfy the police force as to his or her bona fides.

Deputy Howlin

Mr. Murphy made a valid point about the protection of people in uniform while off duty. He mentioned his knowledge of the situation on Merseyside where they are permanently protected. Is that his proposed solution?

Chief Superintendent Murphy

No. It must be looked at. To keep police powers, as they are phrased in the regulations, members of the reserve should not be allowed to go in uniform and unaccompanied to and from work.

Deputy Howlin

They would leave their uniform at work.

Chief Superintendent Murphy

They would leave it at work or bring it and change at work. Although it seems simple, it is not.

Deputy Howlin

For the changing required, one would need better stations than we have in Wexford.

Chief Superintendent Murphy

That is correct.

Deputy Howlin

Mr. Murphy mentioned access to police information systems. This has caused great concern to the people to whom I have spoken. What is his view on the reserve having such access?

Chief Superintendent Murphy

The reserve will have access, as the Commissioner has laid out, to certain items on PULSE, but will not have access to intelligence.

Deputy Howlin

Does Mr. Murphy have any concerns about this?

Chief Superintendent Murphy

No; it is the right approach because this will be taken gently and subject to review. Best practice will be established at the end of the review.

Deputy Hoctor

My questions could have been directed at both groups. Representatives should feel free to respond. Coming from the constituency of Tipperary North I am familiar with the Garda Training College. We have all been delighted with the terrific response of applicants recently. A large number, approximately 10,000, expressed an interest and applied. Some 4,000 have been taken on. Many who have a keen interest in policing have gone back into the community. Has Mr. Murphy worked on, or is he interested in seeing, the potential for regular gardaí to be recruited from the reserve and credited for their time as Garda reservists when they undergo regular training in Templemore? We could use their keen interest in a positive way.

We are all aware that we have large and growing urban centres that are inadequately policed. Is Mr. Murphy prepared to commit Garda reservists to these areas in order that people can have their passport applications processed in the local Garda stations which are currently manned for only one hour a day, which is unacceptable? Does he see that regular gardaí will be freed from larger stations to serve the rural stations that are understaffed and under-utilised? I am interested to know his approach to rural areas and the future of policing both at reserve and regular level. Most would agree that it is time to reform the Garda divisional boundaries. Does Mr. Murphy see this reform of policing as an opportunity to do this?

Chief Superintendent Murphy

I will deal with the question on training first. In other forces 87% of reserve constables want to be regulars. The training they receive helps them towards achieving this aim, shows us as managers whether they are suitable and shows them whether they like the job. Other jurisdictions find this positive. With the same vetting process for both forces, if a reservist is accepted into the regular force, the vetting has already been done. That is positive. If a reservist has worked well for a year or two and is accepted into the regular force, the chances of him or her dropping out in Templemore are slim. That is also positive.

If one has three gardaí in a district headquarters, the addition of one or two reservists to answer telephones and do other work could allow us to release one or two gardaí to work in smaller stations. I envisage this happening. I do not envisage the reform of boundaries as a result of the introduction of the reserve. That is a policy matter for the Commissioner and the Minister.

Chairman

Because we have exceeded 30 minutes I will ask everybody else to ask their questions in a block.

Senator Tuffy

On the Merseyside experience, one of the points highlighted is that the reserve members police their own areas. Is there a similar requirement that they cannot police their immediate neighbourhood? What is Mr. Murphy's view on the prohibition on policing one's immediate neighbourhood? The Association of Garda Superintendents favours a community-based role for the reserve. There is no prohibition on Deputies or councillors representing their own areas. Does Chief Superintendent Murphy believe this requirement is necessary, given that I have been told at public meetings that people like to get to know their local gardaí?

Senator Leyden

I welcome both groups. Does Chief Superintendent Murphy agree that it is vital that the GRA and AGSI come to terms with this if it is to work? Otherwise there will be a very cold wind in meeting and greeting this reserve force. I would not like to be a member of a reserve force unless it had the full backing of people on the ground.

Chairman

Will the Senator ask a question, please?

Senator Leyden

The question is whether the chief superintendent believes it is vital that the GRA and AGSI come to terms with this and agree to it before it is implemented? It is a distraction.

Deputy F. McGrath

Chief Superintendent Murphy stated the Merseyside experience had been very positive. I visited a police station in the inner city of London with members of the committee and saw that the reason the reserve force worked so successfully was that there was an adequate number of full-time community police officers working in the community in addition to the reserve force. Does the chief superintendent accept that this must be part of the overall response? When he was in Merseyside, did he witness on-street meetings with residents who were suffering as a result of anti-social behaviour or drug issues? Such meetings are very successful in London. If there is anti-social behaviour or drug dealing in a block of flats or on an estate, police officers and reserve force members are out in the community and, a week or two later, having worked with the local authorities and other statutory agencies, report back and have on-site meetings with residents. Did the chief superintendent experience this? I thought that approach was very effective. Did the chief superintendent see the strong relationship in Merseyside between the local city council and police officers?

On the question of the substantial number of volunteers from universities, does Chief Superintendent Murphy agree that we need a broader base than one consisting of young university graduates, that we need a broader representation of society? He said 80% of members of the special constabulary wanted to be regular members. Does he see the reserve force as having huge potential for recruiting gardaí in the future, given that those who join the reserve force will be highly motivated and keen to become full-time gardaí? On community policing, ask the Association of Garda Superintendents to take on board that when recruiting gardaí in the future for either the full-time or reserve force, it is important that there be people from all sectors of society in the Garda Síochána.

Senator J. Walsh

I compliment the delegation on its presentation. Much research and work have gone into it and it shows. What is Chief Superintendent Murphy's view of the point made by the Association of Garda Superintendents that the legal powers should be phased in? I gather from his submission that the Merseyside Police Special Constabulary, in particular, has much more extensive powers than what is proposed by the Minister.

With regard to educational qualifications — I note what the chief superintendent said about the universities — given that it will require people who have a volunteer spirit to come forward, are we right in pitching it at leaving certificate level, or should it be lower? Many of the most successful business people in the country would not qualify for the reserve force on that basis.

I was unaware that the Garda code prohibited a garda from serving in his or her own neighbourhood. In many of the debates we have had members have been strong advocates of gardaí living in their area as their local knowledge would assist them and they would have the confidence of local people. According to the regulations, reservists will not be allowed to serve in their own neighbourhood. Will Chief Superintendent Murphy comment on this because it appears desirable that they should serve in their own neighbourhood rather than outside it?

Chief Superintendent Murphy also spoke on the issue of members of the reserve force coming to the police station in uniform. I do not know whether gardaí do this. Years ago they did. In addition, not alone did members of the FCA go about in uniform, they were also given guns and ammunition. Are we, therefore, going to the other extreme and being too cautious, resulting in, as another man based in Wexford used to say, paralysis through analysis?

Senator Cummins

Whatever about leaving Wexford, the Garda associations missed a meeting at home in Ballybricken today because it clashed with today's meetings. In his submission Chief Superintendent Murphy outlined several practical difficulties in regard to discipline, health and safety, background checks and the fact that there could be more reservists in a rural station than full-time members. Whose responsibility will it be to address these issues? Will it be the responsibility of the Garda Síochána, or will these responsibilities be assigned by the Commissioner? It is possible that this question should be posed to the Commissioner. Will reserve force members be accompanied by a full-time member at all times or will probationary gardaí be allowed to go out with members of the reserve force? In the United Kingdom probationary police officers can accompany reservists. That would be unacceptable here.

Chief Superintendent Murphy

I can deal with two of the points made at the same time. On policing one's own area, gardaí can be stationed in their own areas once certain conditions are observed. The only time they cannot is if members of their family live there, they are from the area or relations of theirs have a licence for a licensed premises or similar circumstances. That is what the code means. It does not prevent a garda from living in his or her area. Does that answer the question?

Senator Tuffy

I want to know what the chief superintendent's views are on the prohibition on members of the reserve force serving in their immediate neighbourhood?

Chief Superintendent Murphy

That may happen. In Dublin members of the reserve force may serve in different estates. However, in Wexford, a rural area, reservists will be in their own areas.

Chairman

It would be easier in an urban area such as west Dublin than in Deputy Howlin's Taghmon.

Deputy Howlin

The Chairman listens to me on the radio.

Chief Superintendent Murphy

In reply to Senator Leyden, I stated in the final paragraph of my submission that it was our firm view that this could only be achieved with the full and active co-operation of all the stakeholders involved.

Deputy McGrath referred to the adequate number of full-time community police officers as the reason for the success of community policing in London.

Chairman

As Deputy McGrath has left, perhaps Chief Superintendent Murphy would move to the next question.

Chief Superintendent Murphy

Senator Walsh asked what I thought about the view of the Association of Garda Superintendents that the legal powers of members of the reserve force should be phased in. The powers, as laid out in the regulations and described by the Commissioner, are the correct ones. A review will show whether more should be added or subtracted.

Senator J. Walsh

Members of the reserve force would not start with all of the powers listed.

Chief Superintendent Murphy

That is my response in regard to that. There is a provision in the regulations which allows the Commissioner to dispense with the need to possess educational qualifications if he is satisfied a candidate is otherwise qualified.

Senator J. Walsh

In general, the leaving certificate is required.

Chief Superintendent Murphy

The leaving certificate or its equivalent such as the entrance examination for the Garda College is required. The certificate gives certain exemptions, but if a candidate does not have it, a different process is available. I have answered the question on serving in one's own neighbourhood.

Members asked about the status of reservists going to and from work in uniform and referred to the FCA. The position of the Garda reserve is somewhat different. I am concerned that a reservist who arrests a person who is bailed by a station sergeant may be assaulted by that person on his or her way home when off duty, out of uniform and no longer under the protection of the law. He or she would have a serious problem in that circumstance, as might the State from a financial perspective.

Senator Cummins asked about the full-time member who would accompany a reservist. While I would say that such a member would be a full-time garda and not a probationer, it is an issue which would have to be teased out with the Minister and Commissioner whose responsibility it will be to get together and decide what the situation will be.

Senator Cummins

I also asked Mr. Murphy to outline who would deal with practical difficulties. Will it be him or the Commissioner and the Minister who will have to lay down the regulations?

Chief Superintendent Murphy

This is a set-up scenario rather than something which is ongoing, which means all these questions will have to be examined. It is very important to get all these matters right — I will not say "slowly" as it can still be done speedily, even if it is done carefully.

Chairman

I thank the representatives of the Association of Garda Superintendents and the Association of Chief Superintendents for attending. Their contributions have been very useful and the committee is grateful for their openness in their responses to questions.

I welcome the Garda Commissioner, Mr. Noel Conroy, and his colleagues. We also welcome back Deputy Commissioner Fachtna Murphy and Chief Superintendent John Grogan.

Commissioner Noel Conroy

The establishment of the Garda reserve is provided for in the Garda Síochána Act 2005. There is a strong tradition of voluntary service in Ireland, exemplified in Civil Defence, the Fire Service Reserve and neighbourhood watch schemes. The Garda has always held a unique place in society and while Ireland has changed substantially in the past decade, the principles first enunciated by Commissioner Michael Staines in 1922 continue to be as relevant today as they were then. He said the Civic Guard would succeed, not by force of arms or numbers, but on the moral authority of members as servants of the people.

As proposed, the Garda reserve will be a voluntary body drawn from the community to support and assist the Garda. Reserve members will exercise a range of powers while on duty under the supervision of and aided by regular Garda personnel. The principal role of the reserve as it develops will consist of local patrols and crime reduction initiatives targeted at specified problem urban and rural localities. Reservists will also be involved in policing major events and incidents and providing other operational support for regular Garda members. They will be expected to provide an appropriate, effective response and quality service at all times and to represent a manifest sign of the partnership between the Garda Síochána and local communities. In a changing society it is important that the Garda continues to reflect the changes which have occurred and be representative of the community it serves. The reserve will provide an excellent opportunity to recruit from the ethnic minority communities which now form a significant element of the Irish community as a whole. The reserve will also provide an opportunity to serve for members of the indigenous population who are not in a position to join the regular service but wish to contribute to policing the community.

The draft regulations reflect my submission to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform as provided for under section 15 of the Garda Síochána Act 2005. My submission was based on international best practice, having examined the recruitment and deployment of reserve police officers in other jurisdictions, and sets out a comprehensive selection process, the educational criteria and vetting procedures which are identical to the requirements for entry to the mainstream service. The process is designed to maintain existing standards. An appropriate initial training programme has been developed which is commensurate with the powers which will be exercised by members of the Garda reserve. Continuing professional development will also be provided for on an incremental basis. Garda reservists will perform their duties in uniform accompanied by a full-time member. Initially, these duties will include monitoring CCTV, station duty and policing major events. Reserve duties can be increased on an incremental basis with experience. It is my intention that the initiative will be piloted in selected centres and subject to ongoing review. I am satisfied that the draft regulations provide a positive and constructive framework for the introduction of the Garda reserve which will add value to community-based policing in Ireland.

Chairman

Let us take Dublin South Central as an example. There are various communities in the constituency in which policing needs are different. In the inner city there are social, drug and other community problems, while the KWCD areas, including, Crumlin and Drimnagh, are very settled, working-class neighbourhoods with good, solid citizens, there are problems with anti-social behaviour and youngsters hanging around. In the leafier areas people want a presence. How does the Commissioner see the Garda reserve assisting and helping to improve policing in these areas?

Commissioner Conroy

My biggest problem is having people on the streets meeting the community. It is important to speak and relate to the community and give people the service they feel they should receive from the Garda Síochána. Putting numbers of reservists on the streets with full-time members will give us a better relationship with the community. I am required to get people out to ensure we deliver the appropriate service. It is in that context that I look at the individuals whom I hope we will recruit to the reserve. I do not say they should patrol the streets on which they reside as it may cause a problem, although I know it has worked in the United Kingdom where special constables can do this. This is a start-up reservist scenario. While reservists will work in their own sub-district and no doubt meet people whom they know when they are out with regular gardaí, that circumstance should be helpful for identification and communication about what is happening in the area. I hope those who engage in unwanted, loutish behaviour will be converted to thinking they should grow up to be law-abiding citizens.

Deputy J. O’Keeffe

I thank the Commissioner. It is helpful to get an insight into his thinking. He will be aware of ours, which, in principle, is supportive of the reserve. Taking into account the debate which has occurred today and the views of those who responded to questions, what is the Commissioner's feeling on the numbers in the reserve? I was given the impression by some of his colleagues that 4,000 reservists might be too many to aim for at this stage.

Some of the Commissioner's colleagues said additional training might be necessary, especially on public order and road traffic legislation. There is also the question of remuneration. Draft regulations Nos. 17 and 18 refer to an "annual expenses allowance" for reserve members and the "payment of expenses for attendance at court". Has there been any thought given to or discussion on the approximate monetary value of the annual expenses allowance?

I have always been worried about the idea of providing reserve members with the same powers as full-time gardaí and urged the Minister strongly not to so provide in section 15 of the 2005 Act. The Commissioner seems to take the practical view that reservists' powers should be limited by regulation. What powers of arrest, etc. does he believe will eventually be granted to them?

Commissioner Conroy

I am flexible on the numbers to be recruited to the reserve. Until we go to the marketplace, we will not know what the uptake will be. When we seek applicants from among the public, we can consider the individuals applying. While we will welcome public engagement and applications, I am very flexible as to whether we will aim for 4,000 recruits. I heard a reference during the session to the reserve equating to 10% of the Garda force, a proportion I would be very happy to achieve.

Training for reservists will be provided in five stages. It is proposed to provide initial training of approximately 168 hours and restrict reservists in the activities in which they can engage. I would not wish to see reserve members faced with attending court to deal with issues and legislation on which they are not up to speed. Not alone will they be given certain initial duties to carry out, they will also be provided with incremental training leading to further duties which will allow them to use extended powers. Before they receive these powers, they will be trained on the provisions of legislation.

Deputy J. O’Keeffe

They will start with basic training and there will be further incremental, in-service training.

Commissioner Conroy

Yes.

Deputy J. O’Keeffe

The issue of remuneration will be of interest. How far is the Commissioner able to go on it?

Commissioner Conroy

It will be between €1,000 and €1,300.

Deputy Howlin

How did the Commissioner come up with that figure?

Commissioner Conroy

The chief superintendent accompanying me is dealing with the matter and supplied the information. The Minister prompted me also.

Deputy J. O’Keeffe

I noticed that.

Senator Cummins

The expenses will amount to a great deal more than that figure.

Deputy Howlin

This has been a very useful dialogue and should, perhaps, have taken place earlier. I would like to hear from the Commissioner in the context of what he has heard from the Association of Garda Superintendents. I have listened to his response to Deputy O'Keeffe on training and wonder if he will revisit the issue on foot of the views expressed by the association on an expanded training scheme. Is he happy that what he has set out is the final regime?

Is the phasing-in of powers, to which the superintendents referred, a matter on which the Commissioner has a view? The most important point made by the superintendents was related to what they described as "management overload". How will the new structure be managed and is the Commissioner content that he will secure a proper management structure from the beginning of the pilot phase? Will he indicate how the pilot areas are to be determined? I noticed that the pilot local policing committees matched the constituencies of senior Ministers. Perhaps that is the criterion or it is a complete coincidence. We would all greatly welcome the establishment of the figure of 10% as the proportion of the force represented by the reserve. If there were 14,000 gardaí, there would be 1,400 reservists, which would allay a great many fears that there is an attempt to deploy a parallel force as opposed to a supplementary support force.

In his submission the Commissioner speaks about the duties which will be farmed out to the reserve and an effective response from reservists. I assume they will not be sent out to respond to 999 calls or a call for police support, but I would welcome clarity.

The recruitment of ethnic minority members is an increasingly important question. As membership is confined to EEA citizens, a great many of those from ethnic minorities will not qualify, even though many of them are applicants for citizenship. Is it envisaged that there will be flexibility on this criterion? We have a very large Chinese community and it would be helpful to have members of it involved in community policing who would not qualify unless they were naturalised.

A very potent point about the protection of reservists on their way to and from work was made by the Association of Chief Superintendents. Does the Commissioner envisage a solution to deal with circumstances in which a reservist is attacked on the way home from duty and without the protection of the law by a person whom he or she arrested earlier but who has been bailed and released?

Commissioner Conroy

Every division has a divisional in-service training school. Reservists will receive additional training at the divisional schools as they progress in their policing duties.

Deputy Howlin

Is the Commissioner happy with the initial programme he has set out?

Commissioner Conroy

I am extremely happy with it. We have to get reservists started to determine how well balanced they are and decide what further powers it is appropriate to give them. It is a new experience for us. We will continue to learn from the experience of our colleagues in the UK, in particular, and further afield.

I accompanied the Minister to Chester and attended the annual conference of reservists there. I had many interesting and stimulating conversations with individuals working as special constables in Chester. There is a great need for this type of force in our service. From that point of view, we will continue to train reservists and to ensure that they are competent and efficient in the work they do. In addition, we would welcome their progression, if they so desire, into the regular force. As I stated earlier, I was informed during the meeting in Chester that many of the special constables are seeking entry into the constabulary in which they are serving. One of the individuals to whom I spoke told me that she had not succeeded in getting into her local constabulary but would seek entry to another force further afield. The special constables and the members of the regular force in Chester have bonded well.

On management overload, members may be aware that the ranks order has been changed to allow for increases in the number of chief superintendents, superintendents, inspectors and sergeants. This will address any problems that may arise in that regard.

Deputy Howlin

Is the Commissioner referring to the recruitment of reservists?

Commissioner Conroy

A chief superintendent will take care of the reservists. As the reservists gain more experience, we will create for them similar opportunities to those available in the UK. In other words, they will gain more responsibilities as their experience increases.

On the point regarding on and off duty times, my solution would be to allow reservists who reside within, for example, 30 minutes or an hour, of a station to take into account the time required to travel from home to the station for the purposes of determining when they take up duty. That is the best way to proceed. We would not like to see a situation arise whereby a person would put on his or her uniform and do something that would cause problems for the organisation in the future. A reservist will be considered to have taken up duty from the time he or she leaves home, provided he or she arrives at the station within a particular time after leaving home.

Deputy Howlin

Will the same criterion apply in respect of people returning home?

Commissioner Conroy

Yes.

Deputy Howlin

Will they be under supervision?

Commissioner Conroy

I agree that they will not be under supervision. A similar situation applies in the medical profession. A person who is a member of the medical profession may not pass an injured person on the road, even though he or she may not be a medical doctor. It is a matter of protecting individuals while on their way to take up duty at stations.

Deputy J. O’Keeffe

Will the same apply if a person is driving to the station?

Commissioner Conroy

Yes.

On effective responses to 999 calls, again, initial training would not permit reservists to respond to such calls. However, they could accompany regular members of the force in response to 999 calls. That is what I believe will happen. Emergency calls can often be made in respect of trivial matters. There are procedures in place to deal with emergency calls relating to, for example, armed robberies, etc. Armed and uniform units respond to such calls.

Deputy Howlin

Perhaps the Commissioner would respond to my query regarding ethnic minorities.

Commissioner Conroy

We are anxious to recruit from ethnic minorities. We are going down that route with the regular force. Issues such as qualifications and proficiency in English or another language arise. The Department of Education and Science is dealing with the issue of qualifications in so far as they relate to the regular force. I have no doubt that it will also address such issues in terms of the reservists.

Deputy McDowell

There are three conditions in relation to nationality, namely, that one is a national of the member state, an EEA state or the Swiss Confederation, that one is a refugee granted status in Ireland or that one has had one year's continuous residence in the State immediately before one's appointment and during the eight years immediately before that period one had a total residency in the State amounting to four years, is permitted to be here and is in employment. Effectively, the person must have resided here for a period of not less than five years on a non-continuous basis and for at lease one year on a continuous basis.

Chairman

I suggest that we group the next set of questions because we are running short on time.

Senator Cummins

The chief superintendent and others made some valid points regarding the practical difficulties in respect of health, safety, discipline and so on. I presume that these issues will be addressed before reservists are recruited. I would expect that is what will happen.

Commissioner Conroy wrote to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform seeking 4,000 extra reserve members. I had intended to ask what research had been undertaken in that regard. However, the Commissioner's indication that he is happy with 10% of that number answers my question. Perhaps he will address my concerns in respect of the regulations.

Deputy Hoctor

I have a brief question which may be more relevant to the Minister than the Commissioner. It relates to the anti-social behaviour orders and the Garda reserve. Is there a role for reservists in terms of the implementation of anti-social behaviour orders?

Commissioner Conroy

On the practical difficulties, as Commissioner of the Garda Síochána, I am bound to comply at all times with the legislation on health and safety. I assure the Deputy that I will comply with the legislation in so far as any member of the Garda organisation is concerned.

On disciplinary regulations, of course such regulations will be put in place. I take it that discipline for the reserve force will, as is the case for regular members of the force, be monitored by the Garda Ombudsman Commission. Any investigations will be examined by the commission to ensure fairness.

Deputy Howlin

Is a change in legislation required?

Commissioner Conroy

No, the reservists are covered by existing legislation because they are members of the force.

Senator Cummins

Will full-time gardaí rather than probationary members accompany reservists?

Commissioner Conroy

Probationary members are attested members of the force. They are fully trained and have full powers as members of the Garda Síochána. Much time and effort is spent training members of the organisation. They are fully equipped and able to deal with issues that arise——

Senator Cummins

Is Commissioner Conroy stating that probationary members of the force, rather than their full-time counterparts, may accompany reservists?

Commissioner Conroy

I have no difficulty with probationary members, who are trained gardaí, accompanying reservists.

Senator Cummins

The Commissioner and I will be obliged to agree to differ on that matter.

Chairman

Perhaps the Minister will address Deputy Hoctor's question on what will be the role of the reservists in respect of anti-social behaviour orders?

Deputy McDowell

As I understand the legislation we are putting through, the power to apply for or make an anti-social behaviour order applies to relatively senior members of the Garda Síochána and since all of our reservists will be individual gardaí, they will not be entitled to apply to the courts.

Chairman

I thank Commissioner Conroy for attending today. I hope he will stay for the remaining contributions.

I also thank the Minister for facilitating the committee and attending all afternoon.

Deputy McDowell

There is a sense of self preservation involved.

Chairman

The Minister has invited two guests to attend and I ask him to introduce them.

Deputy McDowell

Before I respond to the points raised, I would like to allow our two international visitors the opportunity to address the committee and give us the benefit of their experience. Let me introduce the Deputy Chief Constable of the Norfolk constabulary, Mr. Simon Taylor, who began his policing career as a special constable. Mr. Taylor is an example of a success story in reserve policing.

Deputy Chief Constable Simon Taylor

I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to address the committee this afternoon. I will recount my experience of how special constables are deployed nationally in England and Wales and, more particularly, in Norfolk. One of my responsibilities is to assist Mr. Peter Fahy, the Chief Constable of Cheshire, who has responsibility nationally for the Association of Chief Police Officers on Special Constabulary Matters. I am his number two, or bag man, whichever way one wants to put it.

Chairman

His number two.

Deputy Chief Constable Taylor

I have a simple mnemonic derived from the word "special" to explain the work of special constables. The "S" relates to the serious contribution made by the special constabulary to reducing crime and improving the quality of life. The "P" refers to their professionalism. The "E" deals with employer engagement initiatives touched on by Chief Superintendent Murphy in his address. "C" stands for their consistency in communities and being representative of their communities. "I" relates to their integration within the wider policing family. "A" refers to their active citizenry. "L" stands for low cost supplementary role to policing. By low cost, I do not mean cheap and nasty. I will now elaborate on each area.

Why do I say they make a serious contribution to crime reduction and quality of life issues? Special constables in England and Wales will be involved with local officers, community sports officers and members of local authorities as they conduct environmental audits, so as they walk around an area, ward or parish or part of a town, they will see what is wrong. They can also see what must be done to improve the town, for example, dealing with graffiti, a smashed bus shelter, syringes on the streets etc. Some constabularies give special constables dedicated beats, others do not; some give a mix and some allow them on public order patrols; some have dedicated retail theft units; some have speed enforcement teams, comprised of special constables; but all are making a contribution to the needs of the communities of which they are a part. The other advantage is that special constables are developing trust as known members of the community and we are getting intelligence both on criminal and anti-social behaviour, which is extremely useful. They also have purpose and focus. They issue fixed penalty notices for disorder and have a focus on burglary, under age drinking, parking and vehicle crime. The increase in special constabulary numbers in the past 12 months is partly as a result of Home Office funding but also to a renewed sense of passion and purpose.

On the question of professionalism, when I was a special constable in the early 1980s we were disparagingly referred to as "hobby bobbies" by regular colleagues and the training regime was not all it could have been. The training regime we now have in place and the one that is being envisaged for Ireland seems to be fit for its purpose. We have structured modular training with ongoing refresher commitments, a basic training for 90 hours, supplemented by 25 hours annually thereafter and supervisory training because we have a supervisory structure. The special constables are equipped in the same way as regular police officers, and they are trained in self defence tactics, statement taking and whatever in the same way as the regulars. Promotion is based on competence and not on time in service. Twenty years ago, promotion was based on length of service, but that is no longer the case and the people who are being promoted are the brightest and the best.

On employer engagement, we began in the County of Norfolk in 2001 a scheme called the "specials through employment partnership" that invites employers, small, medium and large enterprises to give eight of the 16 hours a month we like special constables to serve from employer time. In effect, the employers are funding voluntary service in the community. This gives kudos to the employers, and it is great for employees as Chief Superintendent Murphy elucidated by using the illustration of a hospital in Merseyside. Dixons in London and Woolworths in Camden have seen significant reductions in retail theft and shrinkage, as it is called in the industry, simply because their colleagues who have been trained as specials are more assertive, have greater problem solving skills and enhanced communications skills. We sell the idea to employers on that basis. It is a very exciting initiative and it runs in virtually every county in England and Wales, allowing commercial enterprise to be involved in the activity of policing.

The consistent and diverse face of special constable policing has been touched on already in the deliberations but many special constables serve in the towns and villages where they live and work. One woman who serves in a west country seaside town in a busy tourist area has been the consistent face of policing, supporting her regular colleagues for the past five or six years. The regular colleagues do their normal business but she is the person known in the community. She does not get moved, posted or promoted and she acts as a conduit because her son is in the scouts and her daughter is in the brownies. What is exciting is the diversity of special constables. Only 21% of the regular police force are women, but in the special constabulary the number is 31% and the recruitment figures for last year show that 40% of recruits were women. The police force struggles to get 3.5% of its members from the black minority ethnic communities, but 6.5% of the special constables are from the minor ethnic community and last year the number recruited was closer to 8%. Something is working right in that people from the minor ethnic communities want to engage and participate in special constabulary duties.

The "I" stands for integrated; special constables are not a bolt-on. Special constabulary colleagues are no longer regarded as "hobby bobbies" and I think Chief Superintendent Murphy gave a very telling testimony of his visit to Merseyside. His testimony is also borne out by my conversations. I see 50% of all our probationers as they complete their two year probationary period. One of the questions I always ask, in a fairly understated way, is how they relate to special constables and what they consider they contribute to policing. To a man and a woman, they are effusive in their praise of what the specials bring to supporting regular officers. The newly published national special constabulary strategy is very exciting and gives a real focus to specials working on anti-social behaviour, burglaries, vehicle crime and environmental audits.

For some people active citizenry means to volunteer and work in the Red Cross or as reserve fire officers, but for some it will be to be a special constable. It is a noble duty and it does not demean the role of the regular professional. These ordinary people are performing an extraordinary role. In my personal view, policing is too precious an activity to be left solely to salaried police officers. We need the very active engagement of local community members who are coming forward to put on the uniform to be trained to do a fantastic job.

Special constables represent a low cost solution. In the first two years of their police service, a special constable costs about £3.40 an hour, approximately €5 and from year three onwards, it is £2.40 an hour to cover training, administration, uniform and equipment costs. We are building a cadre of very competent men and women in their supplementary role at a fairly low cost to support regular policing. I have tried to take the committee through a very brief canter and personal reflection on the special constabulary and its contribution to policing in England and Wales. I shall be glad to answer questions.

Chairman

That was a very good account of the role of the special constable in the United Kingdom.

Deputy McDowell

Mr. Darrell La Fossa is the assistant commissioner in charge of community, contract and aboriginal policing services at the RCMP headquarters in Ottawa. His remit includes the auxiliary constabulary in the RCMP, which is roughly equivalent to our proposed reserve.

Assistant Commissioner Darrell La Fossa

I thank the Minister. I thank the committee for the opportunity to visit to provide some insight into a highly successful, community-based programme in Canada with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. Commissioner Zaccardelli has asked me to convey the message that the RCMP is collectively and individually at the service of the committee for this or any other initiative members may be examining. The hospitality I have received has been second to none and I thank the Minister's staff for helping out and making me feel very much at home here.

I have had the opportunity to work with special and auxiliary constables as a constable for 11 years in small detachments in Nova Scotia and, in a supervisory role, as detachment commander, inspector and deputy commissioner in charge of the policy centre which creates policy and procedures for the auxiliary constable programme. I may use the terms "special constable" and "auxiliary" interchangeably and refer to other forms of volunteerism, but all pertain to the special and auxiliary constable programmes the committee is contemplating.

In the Royal Canadian Mounted Police structure, there are two primary business lines, the federal and what we call "contract policing". In the latter, we do not buy desks or police cars, but rather provide a provincial police service under contract to the provinces. The divisions of the RCMP are generally reflective of the provinces in Canada. We have an auxiliary constable programme in all provinces except Ontario, O division, and C Division in Quebec. This is primarily because in O and C divisions the RCMP fulfils a federal role and does not function as a provincial police force. Everywhere else, our members operate in their federal role in close co-operation with uniformed members under contract as the provincial police force. We have 25,000 members, roughly 16,000 of whom are in uniform. The material I have distributed sets out the proportion of auxiliary constables to uniformed members of the RCMP. A further 9,000 members over and above the 16,000 in uniform are doing federal work across Canada.

The auxiliary constable programme epitomises what we call the "ultimate volunteer". Auxiliary constables are not paid, although some provinces offer a small honorarium. In Nova Scotia where I carried out my operational policing, the province offered $100 per year, which is quite small given the duties performed by the individuals in question. Auxiliary constables wear a uniform which bears a close resemblance to that of a regular RCMP member with the subtle difference that the cavalry stripe and hat band are blue instead of yellow. Auxiliary constables participate in community policing services under the direction of a detachment commander or the direct supervision of a regular member of the organisation. They offer advice to our members and carry on the history and culture of the detachment. The RCMP is a very mobile force. As a constable, I moved through 11 different detachments and can answer the question of whether a probationary officer should be teamed with an auxiliary or special constable with a resounding "Yes". I rolled into Sydney detachment as a constable right out of depot and spent my first shift with an auxiliary constable who had 11 years of experience under his belt. There is no question but that he showed me the ropes.

As a community policing service, auxiliary constables are very involved in victim assistance, neighbourhood watch, business watch, home security checks, block parent programmes, traffic control in certain circumstances and the drug awareness programme. When deployed on public safety duties, auxiliary constables are under the direct supervision of a regular member. The constables have peace officer status under the provincial Acts, but that is only in force when they are with a regular member of the RCMP and operating under that member's direct supervision. In fact, an auxiliary constable cannot effect and arrest without a regular member present. Auxiliaries also take part in crime prevention and interaction with the community and schools. A significant number of members are involved in school liaison programmes and in many detachments the primary school liaison officer in a community will be an auxiliary constable.

Our programme has been in place since 1951 and auxiliary constables are covered for insurance purposes under the Provincial Workers' Compensation Act rather than under the RCMP Superannuation Act. The activities of auxiliary constables are authorised by divisional commanding officers or their delegates, usually a detachment commander. Each province sets the number of auxiliary constables and they are deployed to the division. When I was a detachment commander, I had 96 regular members and was given ten auxiliary constables. Some of those auxiliary constables were fought for by members working on regular shifts. We recruit from the community to provide an insight into the geography, customs and issues in each detachment. Due to the mobility of the regular force, the history of a detachment and the patterns of crime and good community relations in an area are communicated to detachment members by auxiliary constables. Auxiliaries work under the direct supervision of a regular member or the general supervision of a detachment. The difference is that an auxiliary constable is sent to a school under the general supervision of the detachment whereas if he or she works a nightshift on the street on a Friday, he or she will be under direct supervision by a regular. It is important to note in the context of much of today's discussion that auxiliary constables are a complementary not a supplementary resource. The auxiliary programme is another tool for a detachment commander to deploy his or her service delivery model to a community. We impress forcefully on detachment commanders the need to form a community consultative group to set the priorities of the community with his or her input. The auxiliary constable programme is a very significant element of that structure and viewed very positively by communities as a way to be policed by their own.

Auxiliary constables are appointed as peace officers under provincial Acts. In Nova Scotia, for example, the appointment takes place under the Emergency Measures Act. Auxiliary constables are not trained at the same level as regular members and cannot respond to violent acts or weapons calls. A regular member operating with an auxiliary constable cannot commence what we call an "emergency vehicle operation", which is the current jargon for a high-speed pursuit. The programme requires an auxiliary constable to work 160 hours per year to retain his or her status, which is 14 hours per month. In my experience, there are some auxiliary constables we have to watch closely because they would be in uniform 24 hours a day if they could. To qualify to serve, an auxiliary constable must be at least 19 years of age, a Canadian citizen of good character with a mature, responsible attitude who has successfully completed high school or attained the equivalent work-related experience. That point was touched on by contributors this afternoon. A business person who is 35 but does not have the educational component may still be appointed as an auxiliary constable on foot of that life experience which is of great value to our programme. An auxiliary constable must possess a valid driver's licence. An auxiliary constable must meet medical fitness standards, the RCMP reliability criteria and have no business or employment conflict of interest. For example, it might not be appropriate to permit the owner of a local pub or liquor store to operate as an auxiliary constable, although such matters are viewed on a case-by-case basis.

A national training course standard is in place which is managed from my office. It is consistent with the direction we provide to regular members and consists of 96 hours of training and two exams. Candidates must attain a 70% minimum. The training covers provincial statutes, the criminal code, RCMP policies and directives, community policing philosophies and powers of arrest. There is a 40-hour incident management model, or IMIM, which covers the way in which one behaves at certain scenes. The mere presence of a constable may diffuse a scenario, for example, or he or she may be required to move up through the IMIM to various levels of force. Auxiliary constables are trained in the use of OC spray, pepper spray, extendable batons, speed cuffing, self-defence and fire-arms familiarisation. They are not armed but they must have the training so that in the unfortunate event of a regular member going down they will know how to operate the firearm carried by that member. They must engage in the Canada Labour Code employment awareness course which is mandatory across Canada, first aid and CPR courses, and we have now kicked off chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear first response training as well. Auxiliary constables accompany regular members on patrol for public safety initiatives and they are very much involved in community and crime prevention. They operate as helicopter observers. We have used them as guards both on crime scenes and on guard duties and on traffic control in certain situations.

On the question of diversity in our programme, the last page of my presentation depicts a group photograph taken last month in Victoria, British Columbia, where the international conference was held. In it are some of our colleagues from the US and the UK. In the front row of auxiliary constables there is a good representation of the diversity to be found in our auxiliary constable programme.

Chairman

Thank you very much. I have one question for Deputy Chief Constable Taylor. He mentioned that reservists were originally regarded as "hobby bobbies" but they are now respected. He has heard today the positions of the various ranks. With good will on all sides which, I am sure, will come after this conciliation council, how long, in the Deputy Chief Constable's professional opinion, will it take for the reserve force in Ireland to bed in so that people will accept it and value it as it is valued in the UK?

Deputy Chief Constable Taylor

That is a really tricky question. My suspicion is that if the training programme goes right — it seems that is being addressed entirely correctly — and there are some early successes, in other words, if reservists are seen locally as valued members who have made a difference to a town or village working with their regular Garda colleagues, it will not be too long. I suspect that, as in any large organisation, there is an overriding culture. I do not pretend to understand that culture in terms of the organisation because I do not know the Garda well enough for that. The Government is probably in this for the long haul. It probably will be at the half-way point of what is regular service, approximately 15 years, before it gets the real bang for its buck but it will get some very quick wins within approximately two to three years. That is my personal and very subjective opinion. That is intuitively how I feel.

Deputy J. O’Keeffe

I thank both gentlemen for attending to talk to us. It is very helpful to hear about the experience outside this country. On the issue of how the reserve force is viewed in the UK, I understand there has been a reserve force in Canada for approximately 55 years but that the UK has had special constables for nearly 200 years. I read one time that Charles Dickens was a special constable. I am not sure whether Deputy Chief Constable Taylor can confirm that. Why would reservists have been referred to as hobby bobbies given that there is such a long tradition in the UK. Did some change take place in relatively recent times?

On the average number of hours worked, Assistant Commissioner La Fossa mentioned that some auxiliary constables were prepared to work all the days God gave them. It would be helpful to know how many hours per week reservists normally work in both Canada and the UK?

In regard to remuneration, I gather that in Canada this is nominal. A figure of between €1,000 and €1,300 has been mentioned for Ireland. That would be about £600 or £700 sterling. What is the average yearly expense per member to the Exchequer in the UK in the context of the cost of uniforms, training and so on?

There is one aspect of the Canadian programme that intrigues me. Almost half the membership of the auxiliary constable programme seems to be from British Columbia, at least 1,000 of the 2,000 to 2,500. Is there a reason for that?

Chairman

I note the witnesses have written down all the questions. In view of time constraints I must ask that all the questions be taken and then answered together. I apologise for that.

Deputy Howlin

I will be unusually restrained. I genuinely thank the two distinguished external visitors for their wisdom and insight into this. It has been very helpful. The only issue I would like amplified — this is a question for Deputy Chief Constable Taylor — is in regard to commercial interaction. I am slightly nervous that Dixons or Boots might decide to turn their security men into policemen. How exactly does that work?

Chairman

It does not sound like a very good system.

Deputy Hoctor

I welcome all our guests but particularly our visitors from the UK and Canada. I would like advice and guidance on how we can prevent second class citizen syndrome in the police station and on the street, particularly in the initial stages.

Deputy P. Power

What percentage of the overall police force is made up of special or auxiliary constabularies? Is there empirical evidence that conclusively proves the introduction of the auxiliary or special constabularies has contributed to a reduction of anti-social behaviour and public order offences? That the training, albeit substantial, is not at the same level as that given to regular full-time constables has given rise to concern that because of a lack of training reservists may make a false arrest or fail to observe a person's constitutional rights and this may result in claims against the State or against the force. What has been the experience in Canada and the UK in that regard?

Concern has been also expressed about the possibility of dubious or subversive elements using the new reserve force to infiltrate the overall Garda force and gain access to sensitive information or to use their powers for subversive purposes.

Senator Tuffy

Is there a requirement in the UK that reservists cannot serve in their immediate neighbourhood?

Deputy Chief Constable Taylor

The history of the specials dates back to 1673 with the establishment of peace officers by Charles II. Legislation was also introduced in 1831. These two earlier Acts required men to become peace officers. It was not until 1835 that the concept of a voluntary special constabulary was created.

I think the change of attitude to specials came about because regular police constables realised special constables were not being trained adequately. They were, therefore, regarded as second class citizens and the other words used by a colleague of the Deputy to describe them because they were not equipped for the task in hand. Once we grappled with that nettle, a shift occurred, pride started to develop and respect started to grow.

The requirement is that specials do 16 hours a month — four hours a week. It is true that because of their enthusiasm a number do 40 hours a month and over. We must bear in mind the requirements of the European working time directive, even though they are volunteers.

Remuneration is a vexed issue. We have experimented with a bounty arrangement and conducted trials in a certain number of shire but the evidence is inconclusive. The idea of an annual payment for special constabulary duties ranging between £1,000 and £3,000——

Deputy Howlin

A bounty on arrests made.

Deputy Chief Constable Taylor

No, let me set the record straight. It is not performance related in the sense of bodies. If one took a random sample of 200 specials and placed them in a room, they would divide roughly down the middle, with half saying it was a great idea and the other being appalled because they want to volunteer and only want remuneration for expenses incurred, in other words, a boot allowance and a refreshment allowance, if they remain on duty more than four hours. Most do it on a shoe string. More than half have no interest in payment.

I did a rough tot as I was asked about the cost to the Exchequer. If one works on a ball park figure of approximately €5 per hour in their first two years of service, it costs approximately €900 per annum in terms of support and equipment. That is a rolling figure that reduces. After doing the number crunching, one will have a very rough and ready figure.

Deputy Howlin asked about commercial interaction. We try to delineate, in other words, if a person is a security guard or manger at Boots, we would not expect him or her to put on his or her uniform and walk out on the street and adopt another role. We suggest that he or she work out a plan with his or her area commander to do four hours patrol in that shopping precinct at a certain time and at that point he or she would be a special constable, in other words, the person is a special constable who is also security manager at Boots. We try to split the potential conflict of interest.

Deputy Hoctor asked about the perception of specials as second class citizens. I think part of the solution is marketing. If colleagues across the Garda Síochána see the specials as real contributors in supporting their regular colleagues and the marketing is right from the start, that will be a large part of its success. Some early wins would help such as the first time a special officer comes to the assistance of a regular officer in making a really tricky arrest or helping that regular officer resolve a very tricky situation. Those myths and stories then go into the organisation and are better than any marketing campaign.

Deputy Power asked about the potential numbers of specials. In Norfolk the number of specials is high at 18%. With a workforce of about 1,600 regular officers and about 1,300 support staff, we have about 289 special constables. The figure across England and Wales averages out at about 10%, give or take, with some much higher and others much lower.

I was asked about the empirical data, the introduction of specials and their active contribution. I cannot state there is academic research that would stand water; it is more about how people in communities feel when they are policed by people they know, which makes the difference. We are into the territory of fear of crime. Our surveys tend to show that people like specials being around because they feel that they are one of them rather than one of the paid professional service.

I was asked about training risks. We have no experience of major lawsuits against specials. In fact, Merseyside, a metropolitan force, has no history of a special having been sued. It is about training for a purpose. Again, that is a message that has come from a number of people who presented evidence this afternoon. If one is to deploy specials in a certain situation, one can structure training for that purpose. They will, therefore, be fit for the task for which they are called. I appreciate the very real risks in people's heads but it has not worked out like that for us.

On the final point on subversive elements, the service in England and Wales has been alive for a number of years to the danger of infiltration by organised criminal gangs. We have tightened our general vetting processes in the past two to three years because we know that an organised criminal gang would like to plant somebody in the system but I do not think the risk is any greater from a reserve officer than from a regular. That is a well made point but it is a common risk.

Senator Tuffy asked about the area in which specials serve. Most of our specials serve in and around the communities in which they live. That is a very potent strength. I appreciate different situations require different solutions but there is a degree of accountability because one cannot get away with being a draconian special if one is living down the street, standing outside the school gate picking up the children, going to the school pantomime or taking one's son or daughter to the scouts. When one is integrated in the community, one is trusted. As Mr. La Fossa stated, the issue of continuity is enormous. When I went to serve as a rural cop on Dartmoor, it was of great benefit to me to have a special, who had been a special for 13 years, sitting beside me on my first patrol, helping me to get to know some of the country lanes, because otherwise it would have been a case of having to use Ordnance Survey maps. It was a strength to have had a special with me.

Assistant Commissioner La Fossa

Deputy Chief Constable Taylor has answered all the questions

Chairman

There was a question on British Columbia

Assistant Commissioner La Fossa

In response to the question of working hours, the way we operate is that we have detachments of three members. We have others of 600 members. There is significant diversity. Last week I attended an international association of chiefs of police meeting. I placed a map on the wall showing 700 detachments and an individual asked about the number of members in a particular area, a place in the north west territories roughly the size of Vermont, where we have four members. The size is immense. If I am an auxiliary constable, I will call the detachment commander or the sergeant in charge of the watch and tell him when I would like to work. The manager will then schedule me to work with a regular member in order that I will know whom I will be working with. We must keep a watch because many put in a tremendous number of hours and there are others who drop off. When they get below 160 hours, we will have a chat to see if they are still interested, as there may a change in their habits or their life and they may decide to drop off. We will then bring in somebody new.

That leads to the question of infiltration or the possibility of infiltration. To become an auxiliary constable one has to be well known by the detachment in the first instance. Perhaps a constable knows George or Jane very well, through business or school, and he or she will say that he or she thinks the individual concerned may make a good auxiliary constable. It is through the blessing of the member's other colleagues that that person will come on stream. He or she is someone who is very well known in the community.

There is virtually no cost to the RCMP as an organisation as each province picks up the cost for an individual. With the philosophy that one is a taxpayer, someone is paying the bill but the cost is roughly $1,000 Canadian dollars a year, which covers the cost of a uniform. If we send people to a particular location for their yearly update, we will pay their expenses in getting there.

I was asked about the size of British Columbia, where one third of the RCMP is located. We police the lower mainland, the Big Seven, the Coquitlam, the Surrey and North Vanc. Our largest detachment, 600, is in the Surrey. It stands to reason that if the majority of our regular force members are located there, the majority of our auxiliary constables will also be found there.

There are no data relative to research. It is one of those things where one would have to cease operations to see the effect. Community policing, of which this is part, has become a huge success. The community now demands that we police in this manner. On living and working in the same neighbourhood, it is implied that auxiliary constables come directly from their neighbourhood. I policed a three member detachment on an island off Nova Scotia. There were two auxiliary constables attached to the detachment, one of whom lived next door to it while the other lived on the other side of the island but both had been raised in the community. We have found basing auxiliary constables in their local neighbourhoods to be very beneficial.

Deputy J. O’Keeffe

What is the attrition rate? How long on average do people serve as active members of the special constabulary?

Assistant Commissioner La Fossa

I do not believe we have ever tracked that. From experience, during my last details as detachment commander there was zero turnover among the ten auxiliary constables based in that detachment over a three year period.

Deputy Chief Constable Taylor

The experience in England and Wales is approximately18%, which is very favourable compared with other volunteer organisations. Of that 18% approximately one-fifth, 453, went on to become regular officers.

Deputy J. O’Keeffe

I am not asking about those who became regular officers. How many years would a person normally serve as a special constable?

Deputy Chief Constable Taylor

The attrition rate is 18%. It is difficult to say how long people serve as special constables. It depends on when the person is taken on as a special. One could serve, ostensibly, to 55 or 60 years of age depending on rank. Our experience has been that most of those who do not progress to become a regular member of the force, and who do not leave within the first couple of years, tend to stick with it for the long haul.

Chairman

We must conclude our discussions by 5.45 p.m.

Deputy McDowell

I thank the Chairman, members and all participants in today's discussions. I hope the other participants will not resent my thanking in particular Mr. Simon Taylor and Mr. Darrell La Fossa for travelling so far to be here today.

On the suggestion that I somehow misled two of the representative associations, I told them — I have explained this in the House — when I met them in late 2003 or early 2004, of the Government embargo on further recruitment beyond 12,200 gardaí. I also told them it was never my intention that the reserve force would be a substitute for the solemn commitment given by the Government in its programme for Government. I told them in that context that I did not envisage a change of Government attitude which would allow me to deliver on this during my period in office. I want to make that very clear. I have outlined my position on this in the House. I never said it was a rubbish idea, that it should be forgotten or that it was only purely theoretical. I said what I said in a specific context.

The legislation which I brought before the House provided a time delay mechanism of one year after commencement of the Act before the bringing into effect of the reserve force. It also provided that the Commissioner make a request that it be commenced. When this matter was discussed in the House, there was cross-party consensus that delaying it was not appropriate or a good idea.

I am flexible as regards the number of reservists to be recruited. I do not know from where the figure of 9,000 came but it is a substantial number. However, it is nowhere near the 4,000 mentioned by the Commissioner in his letter or the 5,000 mentioned at one stage by Deputy Jim O'Keeffe.

Deputy J. O’Keeffe

I do not recall that.

Deputy McDowell

Deputy O'Keeffe did so in a flush of enthusiasm. As far as I am concerned it is more important, as stated earlier, that we proceed quickly and carefully on this. I have also made it clear by way of press statement on the proposal that the reserve force will be introduced on a pilot basis. I never suggested an attempt would be made to sweep it in across Ireland. That is not what will happen simply because it is a trial and error operation and we must examine what does and does not work.

There has been a great deal of discussion regarding policing in local areas. Current Garda regulations do not provide that a garda cannot reside in an area which he or she polices. One can live next door to the police station if one so wishes. However, the regulations do provide that in rural areas a person may not be stationed in an area wherein his or her homestead is located. That is the rule. That rule is relaxed in urban areas. Also, it does not mean a garda cannot reside in an area which he or she polices.

It is clear from the British experience there is huge advantage to having officers police their own areas. I do not know if we need to be as careful in terms of reservists as we are with full time members. There is a history to the full time members situation which goes back to the foundations of the Garda Síochána, to post-civil war politics during which time there was immense local division and enmity. It was at that time believed officers should stay away from their home patch, particularly in rural Ireland, because of the perceived danger that powers could be abused or that there would be hostility towards people on that basis. It is matter of policy and I am guided by the Commissioner in that regard.

I am aware there is hostility to this regulation. While I accept there are good reasons members of the force should reside in areas they police, I also accept there are good reasons, particularly in rural Ireland, communities should not be policed by neighbours who may have ultimate power over their liberty and so on. While I can see both sides of the equation, I do not believe we should get hung up on the issue.

The issue of taking up duty while in uniform can be dealt with by providing that the person's duty commences from the time he or she leaves home to travel to the police station provided he or she does so promptly. It should be noted — this is a fundamental distinction between the Irish proposal and the English and Welsh proposals — that a special constable in England and Wales, while dressed in pyjamas or in or out of uniform, has the full powers of a special constable as in the case of a full-time police officer. That is a fundamental difference between our proposal and those introduced in England and Wales. Our proposal was architecturally designed to ensure the same will not apply to the reservists as applies to the special constables. Had we not done this, people may have perceived it as a charter for the little Hitler in their area and so on. There has to be a clear delineation between when a person is and is not performing his or her functions. A reservist will not be permitted to get involved in a dispute with a neighbour with his or her warrant card in his or her pyjama pocket and so on. It is important that distinction is made.

I strongly believe many of the points made by the representative associations are true. For instance, this proposal requires financial and management resources and careful supervision. A number of issues remain to be dealt with to ensure the reserve force is a success. Nothing would be worse than leaving these people unsupervised, under-trained or hanging around with nothing to do, resulting in their full-time colleagues holding them in less esteem on that account. The success of the force will require considerable effort.

On discipline, there are many different aspects attached to being a volunteer not only in terms of whether one can or cannot be fined but whether one can be requested to turn up for duty. Issues such as whether one can be requested to remain for further duty or will be subject to sanctions for refusal of same arise. Obviously, lesser sanctions will apply to volunteers. The livelihood of a volunteer who is misbehaving will not be at stake, so there will be a quicker system of discipline. The superintendent will ask for the volunteer's uniform and will deal with the justice of the case on another occasion. There will be special disciplinary arrangements to reflect the difference in status.

I have had a number of meetings with the representative associations and emphasised to them that my door is always open if they wish to express their views at any time. I also said that I intended to bring the regulations before the committee. I appreciate the time the committee has invested in preparing for this and making time available to deal with the issue. If it requires another session, I will be happy to return. There is no reason the three consultative processes — consultation with this committee, consultation on a bilateral basis with me and the conciliation council — could not proceed in parallel. I do not accept the proposition that Mr. Magner or the Department would be offended if substantive points had been made at this meeting.

The draft regulations were given to one of the representative associations on 19 May. There has been plenty of time to study them. When the legislation was going through the Houses, the organisation and development unit of the Garda Síochána was already undertaking preparatory work on the implications for the association and its internal documents dealt with it on the basis of a 10% ratio. I am genuinely flexible, however, in respect of that ratio, I have no fixed concept in my mind. A 15% to 18% or a 10% to 12% ratio may be best but let us see how successful will be the reserve.

We have discussed the various problems. The duty of a legislative committee is to hold the Government to account. However, we should consider the opportunities presented here. We live in a world in which mobility has been enhanced. High house prices mean that many gardaí are obliged to police places 50 miles from where they live and must commute each day. In such circumstances, there is every reason to fear that there will be a gradual rift between the police force and the areas being served. In one area, not one of the station party lives within 30 miles of the workplace. That is extraordinary in a rural area. A reserve can provide people from the community who want to help and that will balance the scales between local involvement and the realities of modern life.

If the committee needs another day to hear from the two representative associations that think the sequencing was not to their liking, I will play my part. If any more information is needed, I will gladly communicate it to the committee. Useful suggestions were made today, not least by the two representative associations which favour the proposition. I thank the committee. I also thank our foreign friends for travelling so far to make this such a constructive meeting.

Chairman

That concludes this discussion. On behalf of the committee, I thank all of the representative associations that came before the committee and assisted it in its deliberations. I also thank those members who participated and made the afternoon so interesting and fruitful.

We will meet again tomorrow at 9.30 a.m. to consider the draft guidelines on the introduction of joint policing committees.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.45 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 21 June 2006.