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JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN'S RIGHTS debate -
Wednesday, 5 Mar 2008

Solicitors’ Undertakings: Discussion with Law Society and Irish Banking Federation.

We will now have a presentation on the operation of the undertaking system used by solicitors and the Incorporated Law Society of Ireland.

I welcome Mr. James MacGuill, president of the Incorporated Law Society, who will assist the committee's consideration of this matter. With him is Mr. Ken Murphy, director general of the Law Society and Ms Majella Egan, vice chairperson of its conveyancing committee.

Before commencing I wish to advise everybody that a brief presentation will be made, followed by a question and answer session. I draw attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this does not apply to witnesses appearing before it. The committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it.

Furthermore, under the salient rulings of the Chair, members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or an official by name or in such a manner as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members that there are ongoing investigations into certain high profile cases. These have not yet concluded and therefore details of the investigations cannot be discussed while investigations are under way. There are cases currently before the President of the High Court which are being adjourned on a weekly basis and accordingly are sub judice. I shall be grateful for members’ co-operation as regards these matters under investigation and those that are sub judice.

Will Mr. MacGuill please make his presentation. I am sorry, Deputy Byrne is offering.

I have a particular interest in this as a solicitor. I am convenor of the Joint Committee on Social and Family Affairs, and of necessity will have to run in and out of that committee. However, I want to take an active part in today's discussions.

No problem. That is noted.

Mr. James MacGuill

On behalf of the Law Society, we are delighted to have been invited here today to contribute to the committee's deliberations on the topic of solicitors' undertakings. I am conscious of the caveat indicated by the Chairman at the start. We are also very concerned at the position we find ourselves in at a time of significant sensitivity. We do not want to interfere with any individual person's rights, or more particularly the collective right of the people of Ireland in respect of matters currently under investigation. What we propose, since it is an area of some technicality, is to go through a short presentation and then take questions. I shall obviously be assisted by my colleagues, because anyone who knows my area of practice will be aware that conveyancing is not my strong suit.

For most people buying a house represents the most significant financial transaction they will undertake in their life. In making a decision to purchase a house people are mindful of the need to ensure that they have chosen well to ensure it meets their needs and requirements in the years ahead. It is critical that purchasers can be confident that their legal entitlement to the property is clearly established and that their title is properly recorded and secured. As most houses are purchased with the assistance of mortgages from a financial institution, it is important that buyers can access their mortgages without unnecessary delay and in a cost effective manner. Similarly it is important that the financial institutions can be confident their loans are adequately secured.

Solicitors have a key role in this area and are central to ensuring that the interests of purchasers, vendors and financial institutions are well protected in the course of the sale or purchase of a property. To facilitate and streamline the conveyancing process, the Law Society has worked hard to develop standard contracts for sale and transactional documentation to ensure that transactions can proceed and complete easily and without unnecessary delay. The Law Society contracts for sale and requisitions on title are now standard for all conveyances in Ireland and operate effectively to streamline what would otherwise be a more cumbersome process.

The Law Society has worked with the leading financial institutions and their representative bodies to develop precedent documentation and agreed procedures that can be used to streamline the process of making finance available to people purchasing their own homes. One of the key features of this streamlined system is that the purchaser's solicitor certifies to a financial institution that the title to his or her client's property is good and marketable — and undertakes to register the lending institution's title in the property.

The development of the certificate of title system has been a major advance for consumers in reducing the cost and delay that was formerly associated with borrowing for a house purchase. Members have all been supplied with copies of the standard documentation to which we are about to refer. It may help if I outline briefly the background, current practice and future developments in this area.

It is important to note that the certificate of title system was agreed with the lenders only in relation to residential mortgage lending. This was to facilitate borrowers and the lenders in doing away with the cost to the borrower of the "third solicitor"— that is, the lender's solicitor. At the time of its introduction, it was welcomed by all stakeholders in the conveyancing process and by Government as a positive move in the interest of reducing the cost for the average person of buying his or her home.

By way of background, and perhaps some Deputies and Senators will have been party to this when they were purchasing their own homes, I will outline the previous situation. Until the mid-to-late 1980s, the legal work associated with residential mortgage lending was conducted using a three-way system where the vendor, the purchaser-borrower and the lending institution were each represented by separate solicitors. Complaints were frequently made about the duplication of work by the solicitor for the lending institution, the resulting unnecessary expense incurred by the purchaser and borrower in paying a fee to the solicitor for the lending institution, the delays experienced in arranging closings, and the resulting cost to borrowers of interest paid to banks for bridging loans. The society was involved in addressing those difficulties. In 1987, the Law Society opened consultations with the lending institutions leading to the introduction of the certificate of title system.

By the mid-1990s some lending institutions had gradually departed from the agreed system and, among other things, had tried to extend the responsibility of borrowers' solicitors beyond matters of title. The departure from the uniform documentation caused confusion and uncertainty for legal practitioners. The Law Society reopened consultations with the lending institutions and these consultations resulted in the current 1999 edition of the certificate of title documentation. The roles and responsibilities of solicitors and lenders were restated to make it clear that solicitors did not act for lending institutions, that solicitors were responsible only for matters of title, and that the lenders were responsible for non-title matters such as insurance, credit worthiness of the borrower and other administrative matters.

When a borrower applies for a loan, the name of the borrower's solicitor is given to the lending institution. Once the borrower has been approved for a loan, the lender sends a solicitor's package to the borrower's solicitor. The typical package includes: pre-printed mortgage deeds and any other required security documents, such as a form for the assignment of a mortgage protection policy; a copy of their booklet of mortgage conditions; other information concerning their procedures for the release of loan cheques, although such documentation is not part of the universally agreed package; and a pre-printed certificate of title documentation, which consists of the three agreed documents, namely, the solicitor's undertaking, the certificate of title, and the approved guidelines. I know that committee members today want to focus on the undertaking, but all three need to be reviewed together.

The basis of the certificate of title system is that the borrower's solicitor gets the loan cheque by sending the agreed form of solicitor's undertaking to the lending institution. The contents of this solicitor's undertaking set out what is required of the borrower's solicitor. The solicitor must ensure that the borrower has good marketable title to the property. Any qualifications on the title will be agreed in writing in advance with the lending institution. The lending institution will obtain a first legal mortgage on the property. The borrower signs the lender's standard form of mortgage deed. All incidental documents, such as family law declarations, assignments of life policies, or deeds of confirmation must be signed by the necessary parties. The solicitor must be in funds to discharge stamp duty and registration fees. The deed will be stamped and registered as soon as practicable, unless the lending institution agrees to do so, which is something that rarely occurs. The deeds will be sent to the lending institution when registered along with a certificate of title in the agreed form. In the meantime, the deeds will be held by the solicitor in trust for the lending institution.

The solicitor must ensure that the authority of the client, which is annexed to the solicitor's undertaking, is signed by the borrower. Pursuant to the Family Home Protection Act 1976, the consent of the borrower's spouse to the giving of the authority must also be completed where necessary. The solicitor's undertaking must be signed by the principal of a firm, a partner in a firm or by an authorised solicitor.

The certificate of title certifies that the solicitor for the borrower has investigated the title to the property and that the borrower has good marketable title to the property; that the lending institution's mortgage ranks as a first legal mortgage or charge over the property; that the title deeds accompany the certificate of title; and that the solicitor holds professional indemnity insurance cover. It is given for the benefit of the lender having regard to the current guidelines published by the Law Society to be followed when completing certificates of title for lenders and the current conveyancing recommendations of the Law Society. It is given by the solicitor in his sole capacity as solicitor for the borrower and it does not purport to certify anything about the contents of the lender's standard mortgage deed signed by the borrower. In particular, it does not certify that the mortgage deed or any other document produced by the lender in connection with the loan complies with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1995 or the European Communities (Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts) Regulations 1995.

The approved guidelines deal with any queries that might arise in the completion of the agreed documentation. After closing, the solicitor must pay any stamp duty on the purchase deed to the Revenue Commissioners and register the purchaser as owner of the property and get the lender's mortgage registered in the Registry of Deeds and/or the Land Registry. When registration is completed, the solicitor must send the title deeds and evidence of registration of the mortgage to the lender along with the completed certificate of title. The lender discharges the solicitor from the solicitor's undertaking and thereafter the lender relies on the certificate of title.

The benefits of the certificate of title system include reduced costs to borrowers as there are no third solicitor's legal fees to be paid. There are no additional costs to borrowers in the form of bank interest on bridging loans. There is no more duplication of title investigation work by a solicitor acting for the lending institution. There are fewer delays experienced by borrowers and their solicitors in arranging closings. There is a reduction in the administrative burden and cost to lenders of running their own in-house legal departments or panels of solicitors. Its longevity proves it has been successful. It has facilitated a large number of residential property transactions in the years since its introduction. According to the PRA annual report for 2006, it appears that the number of dealings lodged with the authority for the previous three years was in excess of half a million, or 651,177 to be exact. It is likely that a significant proportion of these dealings involved an undertaking. There appears to be no desire on the part of any of the stakeholders in the conveyancing system to return to the three-way-closing.

During the consultation process between the Law Society and the lenders in 1998-99 that led to the 1999 edition of the certificate of title system documentation, it was suggested by some of the lenders that the system of certification of title should be formally extended to include properties of a residential nature being purchased by investors, such as holiday cottages and second houses purchased as investments. The Law Society did not agree to this extension of the system and the agreed system remains a system that relates to residential mortgage lending.

Due to various changes in legislation since 1999, such as the abolition of land certificates and changes in conveyancing practice and procedure, it has become necessary to amend and update the wording of the certificate of title documentation. The Law Society is currently in consultation with the lending institutions about this. This opportunity is being taken by both the Law Society and the lenders to examine how the agreed system can be improved to make it more efficient for solicitors, the lenders and clients. It is hoped to conclude this consultation process very shortly with a view to publishing a new 2008 edition of the agreed documentation as soon as possible. We have publicly advocated a registration of undertaking systems, so that evidence and information would be available to lenders. Both parties are working to improve timelines to improve efficiency in the system.

The Law Society is looking to the future and what it holds for the profession. The vast majority of the society's members regularly engage with the conveyancing system. The society supports the view that the future of the conveyancing process lies in an electronic conveyancing system. The e-conveyancing process envisages a paperless process for property transactions. It involves placing the complete conveyancing system on an electronic platform. The Law Reform Commission, the Government and the Property Registration Authority support the move towards e-conveyancing. The Law Society also embraces the move towards a more efficient and transparent system of conveyancing for the benefit of consumers and all stakeholders.

The Law Society's e-conveyancing task force has been working for the past three years on developing its e-conveyancing strategy, with a view to helping to shape a new conveyancing process and initiate new standards and new systems. The proposed re-engineering of the process would allow for a uniformity of documentation, standards and processes to be agreed with each stakeholder. The Law Society and its members are taking an active role in the development of a conveyancing process to fit the 21st century. We are pleased to report that on Friday, 29 February 2008, the council of the Law Society approved the e-vision drafted by the conveyancing committee, entitled "eConveyancing — Back to Basic Principles", which will be formally presented to the Law Reform Commission shortly. We will be happy to have this committee at the launch.

The Law Society believes the system developed for residential mortgage lending is in the best interests of clients. It reduces costs and delays and helps to simplify a process. It is a system that has delivered for thousands of homeowners throughout the State and it has stood the test of time. It can be improved and we are confident that with developments in e-conveyancing, clients will benefit from a more efficient and transparent system. We are also confident that our current discussions with the lenders will assist in improving the certificate of title process.

I am grateful to the committee for indulging us in this somewhat lengthy introduction, but it helps to put in context what is involved. We will be happy to take questions from committee members now.

I thank Mr. MacGuill for his presentation and I appreciate his comments. I hope that our discussion today will help the process of improving the system with the lending institutions. Any of Mr. MacGuill's colleagues can join in the responses to the questions from committee members.

I welcome the opportunity to engage in these discussions. I declare my interest as a member of the Law Society and because of that, I will be brief. The reason the meeting is taking place is certain disquiet about the ease with which undertakings can be dealt with, how easily problems can arise and in response to a general public concern. I hope our deliberations today can deal with that public concern in a way that might ensure that if there are defects in the current system, we, as legislators, might be in a position to assist in their address. It is fair to say, as the president has said, that undertakings are taken very seriously. In the context of recent events, the very least that can be expected is that a review would be undertaken.

There are some issues arising from the president's address on which I would like to seek clarification. I take it we are at all times talking about written undertakings and that oral undertakings in respect of title documents and so on do not have any consequence or import. We are dealing, if one likes, with a written record. There are 12 principles of reasonably good practice. In respect of the 12 current principles dealing with undertakings, have these been subject to recent review? Are there any aspects of those 12 separate principles that have shown an element of weakness?

I am interested in what the president said about reverting to the third solicitor. It is important to underline that the reason the undertaking system was introduced was in response to public opinion in the 1980s that indicated clearly there would be cost savings for the consumer attached to doing away with the third solicitor. It was also important in the context of bridging finance, which, particularly in the early 1980s, was quite burdensome in the area of private residential property given that interest rates were running to the order of 16% to 19% and bridging finance was probably at an even higher rate. There was good reason for the introduction of the undertaking system and dispensing with the third solicitor.

I recall the late Jim Mitchell in another context at the same time saying that casting aside the bus conductor could give rise to a situation where buses might not run with the same frequency or expertise as they had done with the bus conductor. The third solicitor was perhaps in the same position in that there were people who said the system could not be worked without the third solicitor as the bus system could not be worked without conductors, but it could.

It is important to place on record the number of transactions that have not given rise to concern. One issue to which the president did not refer was that in cases where large commercial loans were involved, particularly loans of the type that have been bandied about in recent newspaper reports, my understanding is that the third solicitor in those cases was retained and that undertakings were only the practice in respect of financial transactions up to a certain limit. In other words, the third solicitor was used in any event in such cases.

How and in what circumstances could it arise that more than one undertaking might be given in respect of the same property? Even if there was disclosure to the initial financing institution, is this a common occurrence? I could think of a situation where in large commercial transactions funding was forthcoming from more than one financial institution. What checks and balances are in place having regard to the fact that any breach of undertaking is, first, misconduct, second, negligence and, third, there is the matter of insurance in the event of loss? I wonder at the ease at which the banks could disburse money on the basis of an undertaking without having a system for checking the certificate of title at a later stage. If the certificate of title never arrived, what procedure is there that might act as an alarm in the financial institution? Would anybody engage in any form of checking if a certificate of title did not arrive?

I would welcome the registration of undertakings, which would be very helpful in the circumstances. Undertakings are given on a fairly routine basis. I am concerned as to what checking system is ultimately in place on behalf of the financial institutions with regard to undertakings not being complied with, inordinate delays or certificates of title not arriving.

I apologise as I am unable to stay for the remainder of the meeting as there is a health report on my constituency which is of some concern to me. I hope we can regard this meeting as being a useful exercise and that we, as legislators, might be in a position to do what we can to assist in the provision of the checks and balances because there is some disquiet.

Mr. James MacGuill

Deputy Flanagan raised an important point, namely, that there are various kinds of solicitors' undertakings and the ones we are discussing are those relating to conveyancing. The principles that apply with regard to the superintendence of a solicitor and holding a solicitor to account in respect of an undertaking given are the same irrespective of what sort of undertaking we talk of. Ultimately, that superintendence is supervised by the High Court.

The abolition of the bus conductor, as it were, was essentially when the Law Society proposed the change regarding the third solicitor because there was a concern that best practice was not being applied and that savings were achievable. One can imagine that at the time the initiative was not universally well received by our organisation, which represented the third solicitors. We do not see the operation of this system as being something that is narrowly focused in the interests of the profession but rather something that operates well in the public interest, although what is in the public interest is in our interest.

I do not feel comfortable addressing in detail the specifics of Deputy Flanagan's questions as they may resonate with cases that are before the courts at present. However, to address the general point on whether we keep our practices and procedure under review, we do. There are regular reviews and regular guidance notes are given in regard to changing circumstances. We are operating at present with the Irish Banking Federation to try to identify ways in which the system can be made as perfect as any system can be.

Perhaps I was overly casual in the use of the phrase "register of undertakings". What I meant by that was a register of loans advanced but prior to the registration of the formal charge. Again, if it can be achieved in respect of motor finance, there should be no reason a system that would alert and provide detail as to what is actually happening with any given property could not be devised in respect of finance of this kind.

I wish to make it abundantly clear, if I have not already done so, that it was never envisaged that this system was to apply in the commercial sector.

Are there any circumstances in which it applies in the commercial sector?

Mr. James MacGuill

It would apply as a matter of free contract between parties, but it is not the society's recommendation. If parties having a commercial relationship with each other choose to make rules that suit their business relationship, that is a matter of freedom of contract. However, the society does not advocate this system other than for the group that it was identified for, namely, residential purchasers and borrowers.

While this may not be Mr. MacGuill's specific area of knowledge, does it happen in the commercial arena?

Mr. James MacGuill

Obviously, we do not have an insight into every commercial transaction between every commercial borrower. However, it would not be appropriate to go beyond that into specifics that may be before the courts.

I am not talking about such cases. It is an approved system as far as the Law Society is concerned. I am just wondering, whether it takes place outside of that, even as a matter of free contract between people. Do financial institutions lend money on the basis of certificates of title and undertakings in respect of commercial property?

Mr. James MacGuill

It may go on. I believe the next group to present will be the Irish Banking Federation, which might be able to give the committee concrete information. We do not have statistics.

Ms Majella Egan

It certainly does happen but that is an arrangement between the individual solicitor and lender in regard to a particular transaction. There might sometimes be a situation where a full certificate of title would be furnished or where the lender will to a certain extent undertake its own investigation of title and perhaps even take a certificate of title up to the closing point and then attend to stamping and registration itself. There is a myriad of arrangements that take place between individuals acting in individual transactions which do not relate to private residences.

So it does happen.

Ms Majella Egan

It keeps the wheels in motion when trying to do transactions of all kinds.

Mr. Ken Murphy

As has been made clear, it is a system that was designed for a single particular purpose, namely, residential property purchases in which a solicitor is acting on behalf of a client in respect of a residential property mortgage. As has been indicated, while the society is aware it has been applied in other circumstances, such as scenarios involving commercial lending, it was never designed for that. In the January-February 2004 edition of the Law Society Gazette, the society published a guidance note that makes this clear. It states “[f]or the avoidance of doubt, the Conveyancing Committee wishes to bring the following to the notice of practitioners” and lists a number of different points, the first of which is “[t]here is no certificate of title system for commercial lending agreed between the lenders and the Conveyancing Committee of the Law Society”. The system agreed between the society and the lending institutions, as represented by the Irish Banking Federation, is designed solely for lending scenarios involving owner-occupied residential property.

I also welcome the representatives from the Law Society. Mr. Murphy has just touched on the nub of the matter about which I was interesting in asking one or two questions. Incidentally, one of the roles performed by bus conductors was the containment of anti-social behaviour on buses. Perhaps the late Jim Mitchell was not as far wrong as one might think,

My understanding of the undertaking system as it relates to conveyancing is that its purpose is to speed up the transaction in the interests of both the solicitor and, primarily, the client. Is this correct? Was it ever envisaged that the undertaking system would be used on behalf of one's own business as distinct from on a client's behalf? What is the attitude of the Law Society in this regard?

Mr. James MacGuill

As the Deputy knows, the adage is that a lawyer who acts for himself has a fool for a client. Typically, best practice is that someone does not act for himself or herself. There is no prohibition on a solicitor acting for himself in any matter. Thereafter it is a matter of commercial policy on the part of the lender as to whether they wish a person to perform a dual role in a transaction. Clearly, however, the risks are inherent.

I seem to recall a letter in The Irish Times from a prominent member of the society expressing a view on this subject. I was somewhat taken aback by the view he expressed but he is a very experienced solicitor with a high reputation and so on. Has the society avoided taking a position in this regard? While the witnesses have stated it was designed primarily to look after the interests of the client, expedite the transaction and so on, has the Law Society ever expressed a view on the use of the undertaking system by a solicitor to promote his or her own business transactions, as distinct from acting for a typical home purchaser?

Mr. James MacGuill

If the question is meant to elicit whether we have a view on solicitors acting for themselves in their residential mortgages and using the certificate of title, there is no prohibition against so doing. As everyone is aware, the broader question of a solicitor who also is a developer and is issuing certificates of title now is contentious and I would not like to comment directly on it. What I can say, which does not comment on any particular case, is that in recent months there has been quite a change in policy on the part of different lenders. While some had taken the view that solicitors should not even act for members of their staff or family, there has been something of a rowing back from the adoption of such a position. A review is under way and clearly we need to analyse what is best practice. While we are open to reviewing best practice, there is no prohibition in respect of the first scenario and the second scenario cannot really be commented on while it is before the courts.

While I do not want to drag Mr. MacGuill into any particular case, what is his view on the letter from the Law Society's prominent member to which I referred, if he recalls it?

Mr. James MacGuill

I recall the letter but not its content. The Deputy should remind me what was its principal proposition. It was a letter characterised by some spleen.

It might be wiser not to follow up.

That is usually the case.

Mr. James MacGuill

Will we call that a nil-all draw?

On the question of the disquiet to which Deputy Flanagan referred, which undoubtedly is in the public domain, what now is the view of the society on the question of regulation? As president, Mr. MacGuill has been interpreted in some sections of the media as not supporting self-regulation. However, having read his script more carefully, my understanding is this is not quite what he was saying. Mr. MacGuill appears to be stating he does not believe the existing system constitutes self-regulation and that many checks and balances are built into it. Many taxpayers and citizens, for whom, as Mr. MacGuill noted in his opening remarks, the purchase of their home is the biggest transaction in which they will be engaged, have been disquieted by recent events. What of the commentators who would say it is impossible for the Law Society both to serve its professional representative role and to perform the job of regulator? What is Mr. MacGuill's view on this?

Mr. James MacGuill

Both propositions the Deputy suggests in respect of the various speeches are correct. The most important point is that the Law Society welcomes the proposed independent ombudsman. As far as we are concerned, no matter how much we are committed to explaining the present system, one can never get away from the fact that the optics are that it is both internal and self-regulating. The speeches pointed to the existence of significant independent elements that are nominated by IBEC and the Director of Consumer Affairs. Moreover, the Solicitors Disciplinary Tribunal is entirely independent and is nominated by the President of the High Court. However, notwithstanding all those safeguards, a question mark remains over the current system. The Law Society is not attempting to suggest there should be no change. A far-ranging measure will come before the joint committee shortly, namely, the proposed legal services ombudsman Bill, which will introduce an entirely new and utterly independent manner of regulation. This will be at a very significant cost to us because we will be underwriting the finance for it. Ultimately, however, the Law Society welcomes it because if the public has concerns about the conduct of the profession, it is not good for the profession. The public interest and the profession's interest are one and the same.

There should be no doubt about this because there is no appetite on the part of the Law Society for a self-regulation system. While it does not believe the existing system constitutes self-regulation, if that message cannot convey the desired adequate level of public confidence, it welcomes the independent ombudsman. This should be plain and there is no mealy-mouthedness in it. We are four square in favour of an independent legal service regulator in the form of the ombudsman presently before the Oireachtas.

In the past year or so, has the Law Society paid out many compensations arising from——

Mr. James MacGuill

If the Deputy gives us a minute or two, we can try to get the relevant figures for him. They are published in our annual report every year but we have not any other figures to hand.

Mr. Ken Murphy

We can forward to the Deputy the figure for payments out of the compensation fund, which varies from year to year depending on claims made and justifiable claims made. It is a fund that is designed to ensure that clients of solicitors who lose money through the dishonesty of a solicitor in the course of a solicitor's practice should be fully recompensed for that loss.

I refer to the small man and woman who might have been an accidental casualty of publicised recent events. Have any such individuals yet received compensation or are they going through the system?

I wonder whether we are straying somewhat far away from solicitors' undertakings at this stage.

Not as far as the small man is concerned.

Mr. MacGuill may respond if he wishes.

Mr. James MacGuill

Without commenting on specific cases, when the small person has a well-defined clear claim, the absolute practice of the society is that it is fast-tracked through. From my knowledge I can state that in respect of some people who were caught up in recent events, matters were resolved for them as quickly as possible. The purpose behind the fund is to ensure public protection and individual client protection because the preponderance of the profession would not tolerate a situation in which we sat on our hands while someone was at a loss.

I have nothing further to add.

In response to Deputy Rabbitte's question about the efficacy of a solicitor acting for himself or herself in a property transaction, be it a house purchase or the purchase of a commercial property, Mr. MacGuill said there is no prohibition on a solicitor acting in that fashion. Should there be a prohibition on a solicitor acting for himself or herself in any circumstances?

Mr. James MacGuill

There is no society policy about it so I would not like to say. It is certainly being reviewed and discussed broadly within the profession at the moment. I have no doubt the relevant body, which, presumably, will be our council in due course, will have to address it. We do not believe in making important principled decisions on the hoof. It is a matter of looking at the entire repercussions. For some people, that would not be enough. As I have indicated, some institutions took the view that a solicitor could not represent any broadly connected person. That would have colossal implications which would be unwelcome.

That is the point. If financial institutions and banks are taking the view that it is improper for solicitors to act for themselves per se, should the society not take the same view?

Mr. James MacGuill

In the instance referred to by the Chairman, any bank is entitled to dictate its own terms. The question is whether we would, in response to a particular issue, rush into making a broad principle, which requires analysis and thought. None of us would rule anything out because that is the purpose of review and discussion. We are not equipped today to say that overnight something that was accepted as perfectly professional for centuries would be changed immediately.

If something was introduced, would it be introduced in the context of the undertaking system? The undertaking system would be authorised by the society but a condition of the system would be that a solicitor could not act for himself or herself in the purchase of a house.

Mr. James MacGuill

One could certainly see a compelling argument being made for that proposition.

I am under time constraints. I also have an interest as a member of the Law Society. My questions are more food for thought than anything else. Much of the pressure has emerged in the past ten years since the boom where solicitors have been under pressure and certain practices have set in relating to the undertaking itself. Much of the difficulty has been due to the branching out of the use of the undertaking to what might be called commercial use.

In strict terms, maybe ten or 15 years ago, most of the commercial lending was dealt with through companies and legislation dealt with that. We now seem to be in a situation where people have built up portfolios in a piecemeal fashion, some through cross securitising initially, and have ended up with five, ten, 15 or 20 houses. Perhaps we need to come back to the 28 or 30-day rule in respect of a company registering a charge scenario with some of the commercial lending that is going on. I qualified in 2000. The commercial lending course then was slightly different than it might be today. There is a difficulty there and perhaps the Law Society needs to make some recommendation on that for legislation. What is happening frequently is that files are building up in solicitors' offices, solicitors are not getting around to registering them and there will then always be a temptation there. I am not discussing any individual case. If there was pressure to register the charge, that would help alleviate some of the problems. From the perspective of public perception, I know that after certain recent incidents, ordinary individuals who maybe have one house are ringing to see what stage their registration is at, which was unheard of heretofore.

In respect of solicitors acting for themselves, there are arguments to be made that solicitors should not do this. At the same time, most solicitors would want a house with good title, their charge registered and to keep everything proper so there is another side to that. Unfortunately, if we must crack the whip, we should do so, although it may not be as widespread as we think. In respect of the registering of the charge, our legislation does not cover the scenario where somebody may own one house one day and ten houses in a year's time. What areMr. MacGuill's thoughts on that?

Mr. James MacGuill

I will bow to the Senator's judgment on the commercial course. My commercial course was in 1983 when things might not have been as advanced. Everybody is very conscious that time slippage is bad from everyone's point of view. That is one of the central issues being addressed in our meetings with the Irish Bankers Federation. We would welcome clear efficiencies in every stakeholder. That would affect us, the banks and the Property Registration Authority. At the reverse end of it, it affects getting vacates discharge figures. That is under active review. We would be able to report positively following those meetings because everyone is coming at it from the same position. We want the best public protection and consumer service.

Given what has happened in the recent past, it is very important that we look at undertakings so the exchange of views here is very important. There can be instances which are just simple aberrations in the system, be they fraud or other individual actions which cannot be covered and catered for in any particular system. The question we are really asking is what are the lessons to be learned. Are we talking about an aberration or has the current situation highlighted a defect in the system? That is the fundamental point.

The Chairman raised the issue of a solicitor acting in his or her own property transaction. It would appear at first sight that if there is any lesson to be learned from the current situation, it is that this should be looked at very seriously and that a solicitor would not be permitted to act in any commercial transaction in which he or she is involved.

I note that undertakings given by solicitors in conveyancing are the greatest source of claims made against solicitors. One cannot necessarily draw any conclusions. I am quoting from a script so I presume there is some information that is factually based. Will Mr. MacGuill confirm whether this is the case? Where a problem with an undertaking exists, does it affect the financial institution? I presume that it mainly affects clients. Now that we are reviewing this system, how affected is the client by the current system? What are the improvements that could be made that would imbue confidence and restore some trust on the part of clients in the existing system because trust has been damaged by recent events?

Mr. James MacGuill

The director general will answer that question because he has the statistics.

Mr. Ken Murphy

I am not sure whether I have the specific statistics. In respect of the question of trust and confidence in the system on the part of consumers, clients and house purchasers, one measure that operates under the law affecting solicitors is the existence of the compensation fund, which ensures that, as I indicated earlier, any money by a client lost through a solicitor's dishonesty will be repaid in full. The Law Society fund is a matter of public record and contains approximately €33 million, as well as an additional €30 million in insurance. It is well funded. The amount of claims in recent years goes nowhere near challenging the size of the fund. In addition, every solicitor is obliged by the society to maintain professional indemnity insurance up to €2.5 million in respect of each case. Again, this is protection against negligent loss by the client in respect of the negligence of a solicitor.

When the society receives complaints from, in these circumstances, a financial institution that an undertaking has not been complied with or that there has been no response to correspondence, the society's first commitment is to see if it can get any legal work that needs to be done carried out. It presses home the necessity of getting the work done and exploring fully whether the complaint is well-founded. Frequently it is a complaint of delay in the completion of the undertaking and the registration. We press that home and try to resolve matters. Once that happens the complaint is withdrawn. If it is a degree of delay or inefficiency on behalf of the solicitor that amounts to misconduct, solicitors are sent to the disciplinary tribunal for failure to comply with undertakings. Undertakings, and compliance with them, is taken extremely seriously by the Law Society.

I thank the delegation from the Law Society, of which I am a member. I have a particular interest, having worked in the area. I am not working in the area now and I am looking at it from the outside, from the consumer perspective.

I have concerns about commercial lending. While it may be suitable in many cases where undertakings use commercial lending there must be policy reasons why the Law Society has not entered into an agreement in this regard. It is routine for commercial transactions to be dealt with by way of undertakings. It may be a matter for the Irish Banking Federation. Although the delegation has not agreed, it is common practice and it is true that borrowers and consumers react badly if they are told that another solicitor must be involved in the transaction. If a deal needed to be done quickly I have advised people to use a different bank where another solicitor was not required. It is not best practice but it is perfectly acceptable as matters stand. The concern is that commercial transactions are of a much higher value. What analysis has the Law Society carried out in terms of the dramatic increase in values of properties over recent years, and the relationship between that and the undertakings and the consequences in terms of the compensation fund and level of insurance that solicitors are required to have? If a solicitor makes a mistake on four houses in Dublin there could be significant compensation or insurance issues. I would like to hear the views of the delegation on how this relates to the value of properties.

I see nothing wrong with a solicitor acting for himself with regard to his private residence. I have seen banks refuse to allow this. In one peculiar case, a solicitor was allowed by the bank to give an undertaking on his private house but had to get another solicitor to witness the mortgage deed. It was bizarre but I witnessed the signature on his mortgage deed. The key matter was that he could give an undertaking from his firm. Perhaps it is time for clear guidelines.

The delegation referred to registration of undertakings. I did not see this in the submission but it would be useful. The Land Registry has a feature called the priority search, which could be a model. Nobody uses this feature, whereby one can register an interest in a property for two weeks. Nobody else can deal on that property during this time. It is simple, a one-page document that appears on the folio and the service costs €5. A system of registration of undertakings in that line would be useful. It could easily be set up and everyone would know if there were undertakings on the property.

The issue of a representative role is a separate aspect of the legislation. The Law Society has no effective representational role at present because its hands are tied by its regulatory role. It is doing a good job on regulation but solicitors are not being represented in the way they should be. The representative body of solicitors should be able to speak on these issues without going into the specifics of the case. The Law Society is too cautious by necessity.

Mr. James MacGuill

I will ask my colleague, Ms Majella Egan, to deal with the earlier points but the Law Society is cautious by necessity not because of inherent contradictions between a regulatory function and a representative function but because the matters under discussion are before the courts. We, like everyone else, cannot comment whether it is a Law Society investigation or a Garda investigation. We will not compromise the individuals.

There has been much comment in the media. Although many people are able to comment, the Law Society cannot comment because it is the prosecutor.

Mr. James MacGuill

We are taking an appropriately cautious line——

The Law Society is right to do so.

Mr. James MacGuill

——where individuals' constitutional rights are at stake, as are the rights of the people.

Ms Majella Egan

It is an interesting point that Deputy Byrne raises regarding the priority search. The issue is whether every undertaking should be registered because many are given to a bank but are not subsequently drawn down. It might not be the practice to necessarily register every undertaking. In practice, the priority search route has not worked as smoothly as it might because, while it would be fine in respect of a straightforward folio, there are other issues if one is issuing an interest with regard to part of it. There have been difficulties and there has been a low take-up of priority searches.

Nobody knows about them.

Ms Majella Egan

People know about them but they are not used as often as they might be. There is merit in some system whereby loans drawn down are registered, whether as suggested by Deputy Byrne or otherwise.

The charge will be registered on the property in due course, as per the undertaking. If there is a charge on companies it must be registered within the companies office within one month. Perhaps Senator McDonald will refer to this.

I worked in McCann FitzGerald along with Ms Egan and she did not refer to me by my title at that stage.

Ms Majella Egan

We trained Deputy Byrne well.

There was an internal system of registration of undertakings, as is probably the case in many of the large law firms. One had to ask a partner to sign the form in triplicate. Perhaps it is not the same system now.

Ms Majella Egan

It is still the same system.

There was a system whereby these undertakings were recorded. If that is good enough for the large law firms it is good enough for society in general.

Ms Majella Egan

I am not sure that the increased value of property analysis to which Deputy Byrne referred has ever been carried out by the Law Society. There may be other institutions that have this information more readily to hand. We have a good idea from the figures published by the Property Registration Authority of the levels of house transactions or individual transactions.

Does it have any impact on the Law Society?

Mr. James MacGuill

I can respond to that part of the question. Without prompting, we review the levels of professional indemnity cover that is absolutely mandatory on our members. Last year we increased it to €2.5 million, reflecting the reality that values of property in Dublin meant that there is a real risk that a colleague would have exposure of that kind. Most conveyancing errors will delay a transaction rather than eradicate the value of a property. We are utterly committed to ensuring, without outside prompting, that the level of insurance for every client is adequate to protect them.

The documentation before us contains a quotation from the Law Society to the effect that the use of undertakings in litigation, particularly personal injuries litigation, while perhaps ill-advised, has become widespread and that the undertaking invades practically every area of practice and it is seen as unlikely that its use will be reduced. Is that the position of the Law Society on the issues under discussion?

Mr. James MacGuill

That was probably a comment made quite a number of years ago when there was widespread practice that plaintiffs in litigation cases would seek to draw down against the prospect of success in the case. This was reviewed to the point where it was considered more advisable that undertakings should only be given in respect of medical and other directly incurred expenses which had to be borne before the completion of the action. It is undoubtedly the fact that undertakings were more a part of practice than they are today. In many cases, people were utterly desperate and needed to draw down funds because they were out of work as a result of an injury. We will not make any apologies for assisting our clients in these circumstances in an appropriate way to secure finance from their own lenders.

Why was it ill-advised?

Mr. James MacGuill

Because of their open nature. I will give a practical example. During Christmas week, a defence solicitor would be tortured with plaintiffs seeking to draw down funds to meet the expenses of the holiday season. Perhaps it was wrong to encourage an expectation on the part of clients that they could run their lives in this way. Ultimately, the moneys were all recovered from the litigation and paid over. It was always conditional on liability being admitted. It is not a particularly good expectation to generate on the part of a client. This is the reason for caution and the modification in it.

With regard to undertakings, the Law Society briefing document refers to personal injury litigation in particular, not personal injury litigation exclusively, and also states that it is unlikely that its use will be reduced. Mr. MacGuill states this view is dated.

Mr. James MacGuill

I think so.

It is dated also in the context of what we are discussing today.

Mr. James MacGuill

The advice we give colleagues is utter caution and circumspection where a solicitor's undertaking is concerned. Bear in mind that the undertaking is backed by the compensation fund and we do not encourage people to run any form of unnecessary risk in this regard. The undertaking should only be given where it can be complied with to the knowledge of the solicitor giving the undertaking. The words cited by Deputy O'Shea go back some years. It was part of the culture and it is less so now. There was nothing wrong with it as a practice, but in terms of practice management it was not great.

Mr. Ken Murphy

It has to be said we have a great deal less personal injury litigation than we used to.

I understand it is much cheaper nowadays.

I have a final point. It is clear from today's discussion that the solicitors' undertaking system is founded on trust and taking the word of a solicitor. If we were to introduce legislation which made it a criminal offence, would the Law Society support it?

Mr. James MacGuill

Precisely what would be made an offence?

Breaking one's word or breaking a solicitor's undertaking. Should this be a criminal offence, given that it could involve tens of millions of euro?

Mr. James MacGuill

I trust the Chairman is not trying to steer me in a particular direction.

Mr. James MacGuill

Undertakings can be non-performed in quite trivial situations where people cannot procure a particular document which is not central to a conveyance or potentially they can be broken in plainly criminal cases. It is difficult to imagine a plainly criminal case which is not already addressed in the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act so there is no need for it.

It raises an important point that all the millions of transactions which could not proceed without solicitors' undertakings proceed satisfactorily. Hundreds of thousands of clients have had their homes achieved for them more quickly and with less cost because the vast preponderance of our colleagues are utterly reliable in every sense. Understandably, they feel this is not acknowledged.

Mr. Ken Murphy

I do not want to steal the thunder of the next speakers from the Irish Banking Federation but I recall a quote from when this controversy was at its height a few months ago. Mr. Eugene Sheehy, the chief executive of AIB, spoke strongly in support of the undertakings and certificate of title system. I recall he stated it works in 99.99% of cases. I would state that in statistical terms it works well in an even greater number than 99.99%. Any response in terms of action or improvement of the system must be proportionate to the actual risk involved.

I wish to return to my original question on a solicitor acting on his or her own behalf or on the behalf of his or her own enterprise as compared to the undertaking system being operated on behalf of a client. Is the Law Society minded to examine this? Taking Deputy Byrne's point that he does not see anything wrong with a solicitor giving an undertaking in respect of the purchase of his or her own residence, I know what he means and if a solicitor buys an ordinary house in Nobber, fair enough. However, if a solicitor buys a €7.5 million house on Eglinton Road acting on his or her own behalf, what prevents the solicitor concerned from taking out a number of mortgages in respect of such a property? Towards what conclusions is the Law Society tending as a result of recent events? Is it a straightforward distinction to state that the undertaking system ought to apply when a solicitor transacts business on behalf of a client as distinct from his or her own behalf?

Mr. James MacGuill

Avoiding the last part of the question because it might resonate with an issue before the courts, we are reviewing the guidance we give members and whether we would be minded to have rules of professional conduct touching exactly on this. We all learn lessons from experience. As we indicated in response to an earlier question, differing views are held. The way to resolve and reconcile differing views is to take a calm look at them, consult broadly with persons of expertise within the profession and if a change is needed we have the appetite for it.

On this note I thank Mr. MacGuill for the time and effort he put into his presentation. It is much appreciated and I speak for all members of the committee. I also thank Mr. Murphy and Ms Egan for their valuable time. We hope the views of the committee might in some way inform the review process being undertaken by the Law Society.

Mr. James MacGuill

I thank the Chairman and on behalf of the Law Society we welcomed the questioning, even with its difficult nature, because these are important matters and we have a job to do in representing our members and we are happy to do it.

I welcome Mr. Pat Farrell, chief executive of the Irish Banking Federation, who is attending the meeting to assist the committee in its consideration on the matter of the undertakings system operated by solicitors. Prior to commencing I wish to advise everybody that the presentation will be followed by a questions and answers session.

Once again, I advise that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, witnesses appearing before the committee do not have the same privilege and witnesses should note this. Under the salient rulings of the Chair, members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I ask members to switch off their mobile homes and I invite Mr. Farrell to begin his presentation.

Mr. Pat Farrell

On behalf of the Irish Banking Federation, I thank the committee for the opportunity to be here today to contribute to this discussion, which is an important one. The Irish Banking Federation is the representative body for the banking sector. We represent approximately 70 members, most of which are international banks but for the purposes of today we will focus on clearing banks and mortgage lenders, of which there are 11 in total. We represent the general mortgage lenders, the high street names which would be generally known to everybody. There are also a number of specialist mortgage lenders which we do not represent. These are variously described as sub-prime lenders, residential reversionary mortgage providers and so forth.

The market here is quite diverse. If one looks back over developments in the last decade, we now have indigenous or domestic providers as well as providers of services from the United Kingdom, Denmark, Holland and Belgium. Many lenders have parent companies in those countries and are operating in this market. There is also a very wide choice of products. Approximately 20 years ago, the only mortgage that anyone here knew of was a variable rate mortgage. Today, there are variable rate mortgages, fixed rate mortgages and tracker mortgages and there are various features attached to all the different products. This reflects the changing needs of the customer base. The product market is no longer homogenous nor is the customer base. People have different needs, depending on whether they are first-time buyers, trading up or investors or are switching or topping up their mortgage.

We report quarterly on the mortgage market, detailing the number of loans by value and volume and we analyse it in some detail. During the period from 2005 to 2007, 563,000 mortgages were written, to a value of €108 billion. The market is enormous, with huge volumes of transactions.

Members may be interested in housing loan costs in the euro area. The European Central Bank monitors this on a regular basis and its figures indicate that in Ireland, because of the growth in the market and the number of new providers, the cost of housing finance is one of the cheapest in the euro zone and is only marginally higher than Finland and Greece.

On the issue of mortgage conveyancing, in the period before 1996, it was quite a complicated, time-consuming and costly process. At that time, there were solicitors involved on behalf of the bank, the seller and the buyer. If, for example, a seller's solicitor was based in Donegal the buyer's solicitor was based in Tralee and the bank's was based in Dublin, there had to be constant communication between all three parties. I am not saying that every case involved those kinds of distances, but at its extreme, there was that kind of toing and froing involved, with paperwork moving back and forward between all the parties. It was very time-consuming and costly for the consumer because, ultimately, he or she was bearing the lion's share of the costs. The process was also very inefficient. At that time, Ireland was changing, in the sense that the volume of economic activity in the country was ramping up significantly. A fundamental part of that was the volume of commercial and residential property transactions. In that context, the system was going to be challenged in any event, in terms of being able to process the volume of business that was beginning to emerge.

After 1999, a new system was in place. We negotiated a solictor's undertaking with the Law Society, primarily focused on residential mortgages. That effectively meant the process rested with the seller's and buyer's solicitors. It cut out much of the cost, reduced the timeframe, increased efficiency and made it more convenient for everybody concerned. It is important to bear in mind that if we were not able to rely on solicitor's undertakings, not just in this area, but in a number of other areas, the whole commercial life of the country would grind to a halt. The registering of deeds, for example, could take upwards of a year or longer in some cases, possibly due to a lack of staffing resources. Plainly, such transactions cannot be delayed, particularly commercial transactions, for that length of time. Therefore, the solicitor's undertaking has to come into play in order to reflect commercial reality.

To put the recent events in context, we would argue that the current system has worked very well, given that over 560,000 mortgages were processed in a three year period. If one puts the sum of money mentioned in the two recent, high-profile cases — it is not an insignificant amount of money — in the context of the value of the mortgages that were written over that period, all of which relied on solicitor's undertakings in some shape or form, it amounts to 0.1% of the value of all the mortgages transacted in the market. In other words, that is the amount of money that is currently being discussed in terms of the failures in the system. During the three years from 1995 to 1997, in 99% of the mortgages by value that were processed, the system worked.

Having said that, it is critically important that when there is a failure in the system a review is conducted and lessons, if there are any, are learned from the particular incident. The recent, high-profile cases prompted a review. However, it must be said that no system can be fully proofed against failure or fraud. At the end of the day, one cannot have zero failure. We know that from both the public and private sectors and we have had lots of examples of it over the years. It is impossible to reach a zero failure situation.

That being said, we have taken our role seriously in this situation, in terms of determining how we could arrive at a short-term solution. I emphasise short-term because there is a longer-term solution, which we must drive very aggressively towards. We initiated direct discussions with the Law Society on the particular events. Over a series of meetings, we arrived at a set of shared objectives, as we would see it.

The first is that we want to focus on enhancing the whole risk management process so that we mitigate any risks that are in the system. Mention was made earlier of the question of setting up a register of undertakings, which is something we have discussed with the Law Society. I would not like, in terms of managing expectations, to create the impression that this is the panacea for all the ills here because there are a number of significant challenges with using such a register as a mitigant. For example, in order to be able to efficiently capture all the register of undertakings, we would need to have unique postal codes, something that we do not, sadly, have in this country at present. Otherwise, there is the possibility that undertakings for proximate addresses would be registered as the same undertaking. The other issue is that all the lenders would have to participate in the system but the federation, as representative body, does not represent all of the lenders in the market. However, I am not saying that this is the most substantial issue. The most substantial one is the matter of the postal codes.

Another area that we are actively working on with the Law Society is a review and revision of the undertaking documentation. At times like this, it is always prudent to take out the documentation and determine, by wordsmithing or otherwise, whether it can be strengthened, in terms of its clarity, the timescales involved in discharging certain aspects and so on. That is an ongoing process. Another area of focus, to which the Law Society representatives also averted, is a revision of the escalation procedures on the part of the banks and the Law Society so that where issues arise, they are accelerated, captured and rapidly dealt with by the system before a serious problem arises.

All of this is designed, ultimately, to strengthen the safeguards that exist for the customer because the customer is at the nexus of the transaction. We are hoping to soon complete our discussions with the Law Society. I believe the outcome will be a strengthening of the system that is in place at the moment.

In terms of a medium-term or long-term solution, the issue of the current conveyancing process is important. BearingPoint, a firm of management consultants, was retained by the Law Reform Commission to examine the current conveyancing system with a view to determining the steps that would be required to move to an e-conveyancing model. In its report, it sets out what is currently quite a long supply chain, when one takes into account the various actions involved in the conveyancing process. In contrast, the e-conveyancing model has the potential to cut down the supply chain and reduce the number of transactions involved quite considerably. That immediately raises the question of whether, if one cuts down or collapses the number of moves involved in a process, one dilutes it but in fact, this strengthens the process. By moving to an e-conveyancing model, one achieves transparency, with an ability to track the transaction through all stages of the process. The solicitor and other interested parties will be able to track the transaction on-line and it will result in cost savings and greater efficiency because the title will be registered more promptly and the reliance on paper will be reduced. It mitigates against the potential for mortgage fraud because all pending registrations are captured within the system. Significant competitiveness gains stand to be made for Ireland Inc. because it does not take much to realise the amount by which the cost of the 560,000 transactions conducted over the past three years could be reduced. All stakeholders, and especially consumers, will benefit from the new system.

A critical number of actors are involved in the process, including the IBF. We have worked for some time on developing a standardised mortgage deed which is portable across institutions and hope to conclude this project in the coming year. It will facilitate switching mortgages between institutions. The Property Registration Authority, in consultation with the IBF and the Law Society, is developing an e-release system which provides a centralised channel within financial institutions through which releases can be sought from the authority. That system will require changes in information technology systems but we are co-operating on the project and a number of our member institutions have been invited to pilot it. The Property Registration Authority is also studying the areas of registration of titles, digital mapping and the European Land Information Service. In regard to the Revenue Commissioners, the Finance Bill 2008 made provision for the introduction of e-stamping instruments for stamp duty purposes.

E-conveyancing can be compared to the move from filling forms and writing cheques for car tax disks to the current situation of applying for them on-line. It has the capacity to transform property conveyancing in the same manner. Steps could be taken to speed up the process, however. All the parties involved, namely, the financial institutions, the Property Registration Authority, the Law Society and the Revenue Commissioners, are fully committed to e-conveyancing. The Law Society has appointed a project manager and invested resources in the project, as has the IBF and the Property Registration Authority, while the Revenue Commissioners have had legislation enacted in respect of it. However, several factors need to be addressed before e-conveyancing can be a success.

Although the key stakeholders are pursuing their individual strands, there is an absence of ownership and leadership of the overall project. I am aware the Law Reform Commission has established an e-conveying project board. We are not members of it despite seeking representation on it, so it is probably internally focused at present. The project needs to move promptly to being led by an individual or agency that sets the timetable for all the actors and tells them what they must deliver to crystalise e-conveyancing capabilities. Until that happens, e-conveyancing should not be expected anytime soon. Somebody needs to call the shots on specific timeframes and goals because this is a national competitiveness issue.

I thank the Irish Bankers Federation. In regard to Mr. Farrell's last point, the Land and Conveyancing Law Reform Bill 2006 has completed Second Stage in the Dáil. Does the implementation of e-conveyancing assume every patch of land in this jurisdiction is mapped and available?

Ms Eimer O’Rourke

Far be it from me to claim expertise on this matter, which is the remit of the Property Registration Authority, but clearly every property needs to be registered. The Property Registration Authority has initiated several digital mapping projects and is working proactively towards that objective, which I understand is critical to implementation.

As regards the discussion on the use of the undertaking system for other than its original intent of speeding up transactions for individual clients, does the IBF have a view on whether members of the legal profession should be allowed to use the system on their behalf or in the interest of their own enterprises?

Mr. Pat Farrell

The IBF has not formed a collective view because this is ultimately a commercial decision for individual banks. I will set out for the Deputy what has happened in light of recent events given that we are all wise in hindsight. A number of banks no longer accept undertakings from solicitors acting on their own behalf, as opposed to the previous practice whereby some banks accepted such undertakings.

In terms of the 99.99% assertion, does the industry view recent events as aberrations or are similar cases coming down the tracks?

Mr. Pat Farrell

I am not aware of any further cases. I take some comfort from my certainty that all banks have conducted an extensive review of their loan books and portfolios in the aftermath of this incident. As far as I am aware, nothing has subsequently come to light. However, the Deputy made the important point that the system must rely on trust in respect of undertakings which the Master of the High Court described as "the gold standard in contractual obligations". If nobody accepted an undertaking by a solicitor acting on his or her own behalf, the solicitor could still connive with a client to produce the same result. Regardless of regulation, every industry relies ultimately on the rules being observed .

What is the proportion of residential versus commercial properties in the €108 billion figure given by Mr. Farrell?

Mr. Pat Farrell

The figure refers solely to residential properties. As loans are written, other loans are redeemed, so it is not that €108 billion was added to the market. According to the Central Bank, the total value of outstanding mortgages in the residential market is approximately €143 billion.

In respect of much publicised recent events, the man in the street might ask whether the banks concerned were asleep. Would it not be reasonable to expect them to have rumbled what was going on?

Mr. Pat Farrell

Solicitors' undertakings do not apply only to property transactions. The previous speaker adverted to the fact that solicitors' undertakings are applied in a wide range of circumstances. The commercial and economic life of the country, which in many cases must be underpinned by legal warrant or sign-off, is posited on these legal undertakings. Banks rely on a well-established tool which a senior officer of the court described as the gold standard in contractual undertakings. With the benefit of hindsight, the situation resulted in what we have, but the banks acted no differently than everybody else who deals with these legal undertakings.

It is interesting that we have received a reassurance from the Law Society of Ireland and the Irish Banking Federation on the present system, that it works and these are exceptional cases. It is interesting to hear that from Mr. Farrell on the banks because I surmise the adverse effects of the recent cases fall more on the financial institutions than anybody else. I quote from The Irish Times of 25 January: “Mr. Murphy, who took charge of the EBS on 7 January, said the loans to solicitors’ scandal had ‘for all banks and financial institutions shaken their trust [in solicitors’ undertakings]’.” What Mr. Farrell said today is at variance with that statement. Perhaps he might comment on it.

Mr. Pat Farrell

Despite having numerous newspaper articles in front of me, I do not have that one.

It is from The Irish Times, a very authoritative source.

Mr. Pat Farrell

I have no doubt. I think I read the article. I am not sure my statement is at variance with the quote. Those events shook the banks' view on undertakings. A consequence of it was that many banks changed their practices on the situation where the solicitor gives the undertaking on his or her behalf. Although I do not want to attribute this to Mr. Murphy, perhaps that is what he was talking about.

I welcome Mr. Farrell and thank him for his presentation. I also thank the Law Society of Ireland; I did not get a chance to do so before as I was in and out. I do not have a legal background and am not a lawyer, but I come from the most important link in the chain, the client. The issues we have discussed all day are confidence and trust. If there is a lack of confidence and trust between the client and the law professional and between the law professional and the banking sector, where does that leave us? While I welcome the move to e-conveyancing, where does that leave us in terms of the role for an independent regulatory body to oversee the situation? Clients engage solicitors to act on their behalf in good faith and implicitly trust that work will be done. What is Mr. Farrell's view on the establishment of a regulatory body for the sector?

Mr. Pat Farrell

There was already an exchange between the president of the Law Society of Ireland and the committee on its stance on external or independent regulation. Its view was clear and we do not disagree with that. The banking sector is regulated and we are familiar with the concept of statutory regulation. However, I agree with Deputy Connick that it is critically important to ensure the consumer and end-user has confidence in the system. They can have confidence in the system. There is no lack of trust between the banks and the Law Society of Ireland. When something like this hits one, tsunami-like, it shakes confidence at a point in time. However, quoting Mr. Eugene Sheehy, a leading member of our federation, while not minimising the large amount of money involved, in the overall context it represented 0.1% of all transactions. I have demonstrated this from the volume of transactions. We are not talking about a systemic failure, but two cases which, albeit involving a sizeable amount of money in plain person's language, are not significant in the overall context. However, it is significant enough to behove the Irish Banking Federation, the Law Society of Ireland and all other parties concerned to ensure we revisit the system and revisit it again to identify and implement any further mitigation of risk or improvements to the system to increase confidence further. That is what we are about.

I welcome Mr. Farrell and Ms O'Rourke from the Irish Banking Federation. Mr. Farrell does a great job of representing the banks. It is a difficult job but he does it very well. I was not here for most of his presentation. I apologise for that; I had other meetings. I like the idea of an industry standard mortgage deed because some lending institutions, which I will not name, provide deeds that are complicated to use. One tries to be as efficient as possible but sometimes struggles to find out where to sign. One has to study the document carefully. There are different deeds for commercial transactions. That is a positive move forward.

I have spoken on the registration of undertakings before with the Law Society of Ireland. If the big law firms have their internal registration system where they log all their undertakings carefully and the banks have an internal record of all the undertakings, why cannot we go a further step? We could work out something with the Land Registry and Registry of Deeds under the Property Registration Authority that can send information to the Land Registry with a note on the folder that there is an undertaking or promise by the solicitor to do everything in that undertaking. This could include that it is expected to register a charge and set a time limit for it. It was mentioned that it might be difficult, as not all undertakings are followed through but the vast majority are, and whether they are or not is irrelevant. It is relevant for a bank to know there is an undertaking on a property even if funds have not been drawn down. There is a facility called a priority search that lasts for two weeks. It stops all transactions on a property and it is a simple thing to do. Something equally simple could be devised to notify the Law Society of Ireland there is undertaking on a property. It would help substantially with preventing fraud. We already do it internally in law firms in the banks and this is just taking it one step further.

Mr. Pat Farrell

I adverted to it in the presentation that it is on the agenda but there are practical challenges, one of which is the fact we do not have a unique identifier for addresses in this country. Outside the cities addresses become more complicated.

It should not be a difficulty on registered property where there is a folio number.

Mr. Pat Farrell

In some cases we do not necessarily have the folio number.

When the banks receive an undertaking they should have the folio number.

Mr. Pat Farrell

We are investigating it but I do not want to create the expectation that this can solve the issue. Deputy Thomas Byrne mentioned property search and that is another useful tool but, as he said, it stays on the system for only two weeks so it is limited. We have spoken to a number of potential software providers but I do not want to create the notion that it is close to being a way to solve the issue. We must return to the fundamental issue that when an undertaking is issued it will be honoured and will do what it says on the tin.

Ms Eimer O’Rourke

On a point Mr. Farrell made earlier, for any register system to be effective, every lender would have to subscribe to it. We represent the bulk of lenders and, in theory, can get them to agree to subscribe to something, though there are lenders not within our membership over which we have no authority. It is an open market and new lenders can always come into the country — there is no way of tying them down to what they must do. Other entities, which one might not think of as lenders, including local authorities and various quasi-governmental organisations, are involved in lending and unless one can ensure every participant in the market registers every undertaking there will be gaps. This is why we must consider this in detail.

Companies must register charges within 28 days but if money is given out on foot of an undertaking to a company it still must be registered in the Companies Registration Office.

I note the eagerness of the Irish Banking Federation, IBF, and the Law Society regarding a utopian move towards e-conveyancing. What foolproof guarantees are there from a banking perspective? To ensure it works in the perfect manner it is perceived that it might, is there a need for a single registration system in Ireland? Perhaps I should put this question to the Law Society rather than Mr. Farrell. There is currently a deeds registry system and a land registry system that overlap. Many years ago, in my legal career, I advised a client in west Cork to register land; there was a trunk-load of deeds going back to a fee farm grant in the 1600s. He was a German and he said he was fond of the documents and did not want to register them. I still have a practice and believe one could not cope without the notion of undertakings as there would be an awful tsunami of transactions relating to both private property and commercial property.

Regarding the two problems that arose recently, at sea there is the perfect storm and this could be described as the perfect crime; if one is to go for broke, go big. This might have been the thinking behind at least one of the cases, though I do not condone these matters. From the point of view of the Irish Banking Federation and from a legal perspective, when one has a vested interest — say I wish to buy a commercial property or six apartments in Dublin — why is one not compelled to declare this interest to the lending institution concerned? If a client of mine needs documents sworn before a commissioner for oaths we must go to another firm for this service because for us to do so would create a conflict of interests. It might help to avoid breaches of trust if solicitors declared their interests and undertakings and those of their firms; the banks could then suggest that these solicitors could use the bank's in-house solicitor. There could be a belt and braces situation because there is always a temptation, however remote, and this is apparently what happened in the two aforementioned cases.

Mr. Pat Farrell

The Senator has highlighted that everything is different in Cork.

Including politics.

Mr. Pat Farrell

The Law Society's presentation referred to the acceptance of undertakings from solicitors on their own behalf. Since the recent high-profile cases, many banks have moved to stop accepting undertakings from solicitors on their own behalf. This is something banks have done independently and individually because, for reasons of competition, there can be no collective viewpoint.

What about uniformity in the registration system?

Mr. Pat Farrell

This would require us to have a single registration authority.

I am not being cynical but I was told in the 1970s as a law student that the land registry system was so unique it would eventually sweep the country. Some 35 years have passed, unfortunately for me, and there is still a substantial amount of registry deeds property. The two registration systems cause practical problems, will have a negative impact on e-conveyancing and create confusion. If we are to embark on the journey towards the utopian ideal of e-conveyancing, with minimum risks involved and full transparency, there should be one registration system in Ireland, rather than a land registry system based in one place and a registry of deeds system based elsewhere. These systems act independently of one another.

To use Senator O'Donovan's phrase, the utopia of e-conveyancing is very far away, though it is stated Government policy that is underpinned by law and conveyancing legislation that this committee will deal with. We will take the points on providing leadership and driving the process into account on Committee Stage. I agree that nobody should be under any illusion regarding the obstacles we face, not just with regard to conveyancing but relating to all of the add-ons that primarily come from legislation on health, planning, environmental regulations and so on passed in these Houses. The documentary evidence required to comply with all of this legislation now makes up the bulk of conveyancing documentation and this is a huge problem. I do not want to throw cold water on this because, in an ideal world, it would be the best way to approach this matter but the obstacles are huge.

Mr. Pat Farrell

I agree with the Chairman but this is a critical piece of infrastructure that can be compared to the development of a modern rail or motorway system. As a piece of infrastructure it may be less visceral but is equally important to the economic development of the country.

Here is some information that may show Ireland is not in the same situation as other countries. The World Bank regularly reviews the competitiveness of countries and its most recent report, Doing Business 2008, scored Ireland eighth out of 178 economies around the world on ease of doing business. Ten indicators were combined to give an overall score and one of them related to registering property. Ireland scored 79th on registering property and this shows the ground we need to make up.

I agree that e-conveyancing may seem like a utopia in terms of the situation now but a huge gap must be closed against the countries we are competing with in the global market place. We must put some resources and drive into this area as huge improvements can be made if we get it right.

I apologise because I was not here for the entire presentation. E-conveyancing may seem like a utopia but much ground must be covered if we are to reach a stage at which we can compete. The stamping of deeds could be done locally. Solicitors in rural areas send deeds to stamping authorities in either Cork or Dublin and do not get them back for weeks or even months. Certainly two months is standard. This process could be carried out at local level to improve the possibility of registration within one week of the completion of the sale. We need to move to this point. There are things that need to be done to achieve this, although we will need to add more legislation. We will have to start considering a model for legislation to bring it all together.

I have a final question for Mr. Farrell which we also put to the Law Society earlier. If we were to propose an absolute prohibition on solicitors' providing undertakings in their own right with regard to their own personal business, would the representatives be in favour of this? Although the message from Mr. Farrell and his colleagues and the Law Society is that the proportion of such persons is very small and confidence in the system can be maintained, there is a correlation in that it is always the case that such difficulties arise when solicitors are acting in their own right. It is not unreasonable, therefore, to draw the conclusion that there should be a prohibition on such action.

Mr. Pat Farrell

I am not an expert in this area, as I am not a lawyer, but what I heard from the Law Society was that there was already legal provision to cover this area. As a general principle, without getting specific, if a solemn or quasi-legal undertaking is given in any walk of life, it is important that it be backed up by sanctions. My understanding is that there are sanctions available, either in the Law Society's own regulations or an Act that covers this area, as mentioned by the president of the Law Society. Thus, it seems there are already sanctions available. As a general principle, however, if something important is to be enforced, its enforcement must be backed up by sanctions.

There are sanctions but should there be a prohibition? That is what we are trying to get at.

Mr. Pat Farrell

As I said, I am not an expert. What I heard was that the provisions in place were adequate. On that basis, it seems that the matter is already dealt with. Perhaps it is a question of its application.

I was stunned by Mr. Farrell's remark that by international standards we ranked 79th out of more than 100 countries in the area of conveyancing. Where do we rank among European countries or is it only done globally? For example, had we come in the first six or seven, instead of being No. 8, we might be No. 5. It is an appalling statistic, of which I was not aware. It is a terrible indictment of our registration system, about which I have complained for many years. We are nearly 80th among developed countries. We pride ourselves on the Registration of Title Acts. In theory and in practice, registration of title should be efficient and simple in Ireland but it is not, as vested interests have dragged things out for years and we do not want to marry the two systems.

On that note, I conclude the discussions. I thank Mr. Farrell and Ms O'Rourke for coming. We appreciate their presentation and engagement with the committee. Their views will inform our work programme for the rest of the year.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.15 p.m. sine die.
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