JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN'S RIGHTS debate -
Wednesday, 10 Mar 2010

Report on Women’s Participation in Politics: Discussion with National Women’s Council.

Chairman

The discussion today is with the National Women's Council on the joint committee's report on women's participation in politics. I welcome Ms Susan McKay, director of the National Women's Council. The purpose of the meeting is to discuss matters raised in the course of our examination of this issue and the joint committee's subsequent report. The joint committee viewed the publication of its report as the beginning rather than end of a process and agreed to follow up on the issue on regular basis. I hope the report and debates thereon will contribute to bringing about the necessary changes. I thank the National Women's Council for its submission on this matter.

The format for the meeting will be a brief opening statement by Ms McKay followed by a question and answer session. I draw attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before it. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I ask that all mobile telephones be switched off during the meeting. I invite Ms McKay to make her opening statement.

Ms Susan McKay

I thank the joint committee for inviting the National Women's Council before it. We welcome the opportunity to address the committee again. I invite members to listen to a news report from today's edition of The Irish Times. The story is headlined “Cabinet agrees 30 diplomatic posts in major reshuffle” and is by the newspaper’s political correspondent, Deaglán de Bréadún. I will read the entire article because it is short:

Minister for Foreign Affairs Micheál Martin secured approval for 30 new ambassadorial nominations at the weekly meeting of the Cabinet yesterday, in one of the biggest diplomatic reshuffles of recent years. All of the nominees are subject to formal approval by the host governments, although there is normally no difficulty in this regard. As an economy measure, some positions are being filled at a lower salary grade than normal. In the case of nine of the posts, the outgoing ambassador is retiring from the department.

Those who are retiring include Antóin Mac Unfraidh in Athens, who is being succeeded by Charles Sheehan from EU division in headquarters at Iveagh House; Tony Mannix in Berne, succeeded by Martin Burke, who is currently Ambassador to Luxembourg; and Michael Hoey in Brazil, succeeded by Frank Sheridan, currently Ambassador to Mozambique. Others in this category are Brian Nason in Brussels, succeeded by Tom Hanney, currently joint secretary in charge of the North-South Ministerial Council in Armagh; Martin Greene in Budapest, succeeded by John Deady, currently Ambassador to Iran; Pat McCabe in Ljubljana, Slovenia, succeeded by Tom Brady, currently Ambassador to Cyprus; Dick O'Brien in Singapore, succeeded by Joe Hayes, currently Ambassador to Denmark; Tom Bolster in Tallinn, succeeded by Peter McIvor, currently in the political division; and Frank Cogan in Vienna, succeeded by Jim Brennan, currently Ambassador to Portugal.

The other 21 nominations at ambassador level are as follows – Nigeria: Paddy Fay, currently in Lesotho; Joint Secretary in Armagh: Anne Barrington, currently in Tanzania; Argentina: James McIntyre, currently in political division; Egypt: Isolde Moylan, currently in political division; Denmark: Brendan Scannell, currently in Japan; Tanzania: Lorcan Fullam, currently in Department of the Taoiseach; Malaysia: Declan Kelly, currently in Canada; Portugal: Declan O'Donovan, currently in Poland; Luxembourg: Diarmuid O'Leary, currently in Irish Aid; Mozambique: Ruairí de Búrca, currently in Anglo-Irish division; Lesotho: Gerry Gervin, currently in Irish Aid; Cyprus: Pat Scullion, currently Consul General in Sydney; Canada: Ray Bassett, currently head of consular division; South Africa: Brendan McMahon, currently in Latvia; Bulgaria: John Rowan, currently in EU division; Iran: Oliver Grogan, currently in Anglo-Irish Division; Japan: John Neary, currently head of Promoting Ireland Abroad division; Malta: Jim Hennessy, currently in political division; Lithuania: Philomena Murnaghan, currently in Argentina; Poland: Eugene Hutchinson, currently in Malaysia; Latvia: Aidan Kirwan, currently first secretary in Russia.

A number of outgoing ambassadors are returning to senior positions at Iveagh House, including Kyle O'Sullivan, currently in Nigeria; Colin Wrafter in South Africa; Geoffrey Keatinge in Bulgaria; Gerry O'Connor in Malta; and Donal Denham in Lithuania. It is understood that four of the 30 ambassadorships are being filled at first-secretary level, which is below the normal grade for such a position. This is the first time ambassadorships are being filled at this level, but the Government is not specifying the posts in question so as to avoid giving offence to the host government.

Secretary General of the department David Cooney told the Dáil's public accounts committee last January that a "lighter structure" was being introduced at Irish missions in some EU member states, but there were no plans to close missions as it was important to have someone "on the ground".

The story, which is from page 9 of the newspaper, is not remarkable. It features alongside a fashion report which shows a woman striding down a catwalk in a skirt and shirt whose designer is said to have been "playing with masculine tailoring in a girlish way". The list of names is uncontroversial and the host governments are not, as is noted, expected to be surprised or alarmed. What would be remarkable is if we swapped the genders of those who feature on the list. What if the Cabinet was sending out Annette and Carol, Tina and Mary, Michelle and Francine, Bernadette and Claire, Jane and Patricia, Josephine and Pauline, Mairead and Sarah and Laura and Anne? I am sure members will see what I mean.

Of the 44 people named on this list of appointments and replacements, only two are women. It is like one of those Old Testament passages along the lines of: "And Anton begat Charles and Charles begat Tony and Tony begat Martin" and so on. When will this stop? Members should try applying this exercise to other pages of the newspaper and imagine stories such as: "Bishop Denise O'Mangan calls on parishioners to pay up for abuses carried out on children by hundreds of women priests. Meanwhile we are still awaiting a statement from the Pope. She is not, however, expected to apologise", or "Taoiseach Brenda Cowen has called on the women who run the banks to tell her how much public money they need. Meanwhile traumatised men are filing into the courts to talk about terrifying ordeals at the hands of female rapists".

The National Women's Council applauds the excellent work done by the joint committee. We wish to quote from a statement that was made at our celebration of International Women's Day earlier this week by a woman who has learned much about how society works in her eight decades of life in this country. Ms Sylvia Meehan is currently president of the Senior Citizens' Parliament. She was the first chairperson and later CEO of the Equality Agency and she was one of the founders of the Council for the Status of Women, which became the National Women's Council. She told our delegates the following: "The heart of the matter lies in political power. We need strong political representation in the Dáil...the political parties will get gender balance if we insist on it." That is what we must do. We must insist that this outrageous obliviousness to the absence of women is stopped, and we must insist that it is finally treated as a matter of urgency.

To turn to the content of the report. The opening statistics are, by any standards, shocking. They bear restating. The Dáil has always been at least 86% male, and women's representation has "reduced drastically" since 1990, when we thought we were on the crest of a wave of change with the election of Mrs. Mary Robinson as President. Then we were 37th in the world classification, now we are 84th. In short, the Dáil has one of the highest proportions of male politicians in the world. The report notes that it is "universally acknowledged that balanced participation by women and men in political decision making leads to more truly representative and effective democracies". It quotes the UN's Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women, CEDAW, and it quotes our own national women's strategy, NWS, with its objective to increase the number of women in decision making positions.

The NWS was published in 2007 and described by the then Taoiseach as a "shining light" for the world. In the same year, in 60% of constituencies neither Fianna Fáil nor Fine Gael put forward any women candidates. In fact, in 12% of Dáil constituencies, an all-male ticket was presented. We must act upon the statement of the European Commission for Democracy Through Law, that:

Political parties play a prominent role for balancing gender representation in parliament since they nominate the candidates for elections. The nomination process is the most critical one for women's access to parliament.

Voters can only choose candidates the parties put forward. The report usefully points out that this situation puts us in breach of our international obligations under the Council of Europe's 2003 recommendation and the European roadmap for equality, and under the Beijing platform for action, currently under review in New York, of which more presently. It quotes CEDAW's assertion that "temporary special measures" to accelerate equality shall not be considered discriminatory.

The National Women's Council of Ireland calls upon the Government to introduce such measures, and on all of the political parties represented in the Houses of the Oireachtas, to endorse, support and, most importantly of all, to implement them. We should have no more lip service. As Professor Yvonne Galligan notes in her excellent contribution to the report, "Those countries in which women's representation in parliament is 30% or more are the ones that have in place affirmative action policies." As Gemma Hussey further points out in the report, "nothing works voluntarily."

The report on women's participation in politics has shown the way. There is no excuse for any further delay in addressing this persistent and entirely unnecessary problem. A number of measures are identified in the report. All the five "Cs" need to be addressed: child care, cash, confidence, culture and candidate selection procedures. To quote: "A whole package of reforms is necessary." We need to recognise that men are responsible for children as well as women. We need paternity leave and good child care policies. We need to organise the rules and times of parliamentary sittings to reflect the fact that Deputies have family responsibilities as well as jobs.

The National Women's Council welcomes the suggestion under "potential initiatives which may encourage more women to consider a career in politics", that a data bank of potential women candidates should be developed. We would be happy to discuss undertaking this task. Leadership training and support for networks is also crucial. The demolition of the community development programme, which supported women's networks in communities around the country in last December's budget — many of them members of the NWCI — is to be deplored in this context.

Quotas do not discriminate; they compensate for discrimination. For too long, women have had to depend upon dynastic succession or other flukes of fortune to get into Irish politics, or they have had to be exceptional. Quotas are, as the report notes, already widely used in other categories in nomination processes. This needs to be highlighted by advertising campaigns and other measures so as to address the myth that a woman who gets into politics through a quota is less capable than a man who would have got through no matter how slender his talent. As we stated in our submission to the committee last year, the NWCI believes that we need a quota system whereby the political parties are obliged to nominate not less than 40% of candidates of either sex. We agree with the statement from Peters and Suter, quoted in the report, that this can only work if there is strict enforcement. We need legislation, timetables and targets and we need enforced compliance.

The National Women's Council has been in discussion with the Minister of State, Deputy Moloney, and we are pleased to note that progress is being made towards the setting up of a committee on women in decision making. He has stated to us, and to the European Women's Lobby, that he is committed to bringing about real change in this area. We also welcome the fact that he has met with Senator Ivana Bacik, and that he is to call a meeting of general secretaries of the political parties in the near future. Senator Bacik is the most passionate campaigner in the Oireachtas for this crucial reform, and we commend her commitment to it. She is to attend this meeting and so is the NWCI.

The Minister of State, Deputy Moloney, is in New York at present. Yesterday he addressed delegates to the 54th session of the commission on the status of women, which he is attending. We feel that he may have understated things somewhat when he said that while women were moving in increasing numbers into managerial and professional roles, "they are less frequently to be found in politics". We also regret that he did not comment on the swingeing cuts the Government made to the budgets of the national women's strategy last year. We are amazed by his reference to "increased child benefit". As one of the feminist non-governmental organisations attending the commission, the NWCI has signed up to a statement criticising the level of real engagement by participating governments.

We have identified the problem many times over. The committee has given us a fresh start. It is time for action. We are going to take on board the wise words of Sylvia Meehan. The heart of the matter is political power. To this end, we are adopting a campaign which has been pioneered in the UK by our sister organisation, the Fawcett Society. The campaign will complement our Spot the Woman campaign, the one which brought to our attention the article I quoted at the start of this submission. It is called What About Women?

The Fawcett Society campaign is specifically geared towards asking political parties in the UK key questions in advance of the 2010 elections to Westminster. We are not, perhaps, facing an election quite as imminently so we are going to start in Ireland with a series of questions which are simply about democracy and political reform. We will address these in the first instance to the leaders and general secretaries of the political parties. We have four questions: Will you support the NWCI's call for quotas at candidate selection level? What other means will you use to increase the number and diversity of women in the Dáil and Government at national and local levels? What will you do to ensure the voices of women are heard and acted upon by decision makers? How will you support a vibrant and sustainable women's voluntary and community sector? The last question is particularly important in the Irish context. We want answers, and we look forward to having the support of this committee in making sure that the answers we get are serious and capable of bringing about the real change we so urgently need in this country.

Senator Ivana Bacik

I welcome Ms McKay who is speaking on behalf of the National Women's Council. I thank her for her kind words and her contribution today which is useful to the committee as we look at how best to ensure that the report is implemented. I am grateful to the Chairman in particular for indicating that the publication of the report last October was the beginning of a process and that we are anxious to see action taken on foot of it.

The report had unanimous support from all the parties represented on the committee. It is important to note that. As Ms McKay indicated, I have already met with the Minister of State, Deputy Moloney, who has indicated his support for initiatives to improve women's participation in politics. It is nice to be debating the issue at an Oireachtas committee in the week of International Women's Day. However, despite the promises we have had and the rhetoric in support of increased participation by women in politics, we need to be careful to ensure the words are not just empty. I am mindful of what Ms McKay has said about, for example, the demolition of the community network programmes which has undermined the grassroots organisations for women's groups around the country. Will Ms McKay indicate to what extent she considers that will damage or make more difficult the chances of women coming forward in politics at local level?

This is an historic debate to have in the committee but in nine decades of independence we have never had a debate specifically about women's participation in politics in either House of the Oireachtas. We were promised that such a debate would take place in the Seanad this week. Senator McDonald and I, among others, had been pressing for that debate for some time, but it did not happen. We are anxious that it should take place in both the Seanad and the Dáil and that the Minister of State, Deputy Moloney, be there to outline how he plans to implement the recommendations of the report and to ensure its objectives are fulfilled. We hope that debate will take place as a matter of urgency.

As Ms McKay said, it is of great concern to us all that Ireland has fallen in the rankings in regard to female participation in politics from 37th place in 1990, when we were approximately equivalent with Spain, to 84th place. Spain, on the other hand, has moved far ahead since its introduction of legislative quotas. We are anxious that all the measures we describe in the report to address the "five Cs" — cash, child care, confidence, culture and candidate selection processes — should be adopted. In particular, the issue of candidate selection must be looked at as a key obstacle to women's progression into elected politics. Last year my Labour Party colleague, Deputy Ciarán Lynch, introduced a Bill which would have provided for a temporary quota or cap whereby political parties could select no more than two thirds of their candidates from one gender. How does Ms McKay consider that this type of legislation may best be progressed through the Dáil and Seanad? I am grateful to Ms McKay for indicating the National Women's Council's support for this report and its recommendations. I am grateful also to the Minister of State, Deputy Moloney, and to the Chairman for indicating a willingness to take action to ensure the report does not merely gather dust.

Ms Susan McKay

The demolition of the community development programmes will be very damaging if it proceeds as envisaged. Many of the networks have not only lost structures they built up over many years and which have proved effective for them but also have no certainty about their future beyond next year. Many of them fear there will be a last in, first out principle when there are further cutbacks to the new structures, as is likely to happen. The community development projects are a fantastic source of women who have experience of campaigning on issues of relevance to women in communities throughout the country. In other words, they are a fantastic source of women who have the necessary skills and experience to go into politics. To damage that structure of women's groups is to set back the cause of women's political representation at a higher political level. It is indicative of the absence of concern for women's politics at community level. Our Parliament is male-dominated to such a degree that this seems not to have been noted.

I agree with Senator Bacik that it is somewhat remarkable that in all the decades that the Houses of the Oireachtas have been sitting, we have not had a debate on the issue of women's representation. We support the Senator's call for that to happen as soon as possible. One of the aspects of this report that we found most useful is that it documents progress on a broader scale. As Senator Bacik observed, it indicates that Spain, for example, has seen enormous advances since the introduction of legislated quotas. We are absolutely confident that the same would happen in Ireland. While we said at the time of its introduction that the Labour Party Bill did not go far enough, we nevertheless welcomed it and are still of the view that it has a place, particularly its introduction of the concept of penalties for parties which do not comply. Unfortunately, we are well used to hearing political parties saying, "Yes, dear, we understand and will do something about it one of these centuries." That is not good enough.

Chairman

Perhaps I am wrong in this perception but it seems that the National Women's Council was in the past something of a breeding ground for women politicians, but that no longer seems to be the case. Is there any particular reason for that?

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

Has the council stopped breeding such women?

Ms Susan McKay

The Deputy may be right.

Senator Ivana Bacik

Although the formulation is unfortunate.

Ms Susan McKay

There is no reason that the council should not resume being a forum for aspiring politicians. Unfortunately, the council has been rather silent for some time, but I hope that my background in journalism means that we may have a higher profile in future. As I said, we would be in favour of maintaining some type of databank of women who could go forward into politics, which would certainly include women from the board and staff of the council.

Deputy Noel Treacy

I welcome Ms McKay. I have read her articles and listened to her dulcet tones on various programmes over the years, including recently. As a man, I am somewhat chastened and almost chastised as I respond.

Senator Frances Fitzgerald

There is a first time for everything.

Senator Ivana Bacik

The Deputy is a shrinking violet.

Deputy Noel Treacy

Regarding diplomatic appointments, having worked in the Department of Foreign Affairs in the past, I am aware that the diplomatic staff are all top-class people and do an outstanding job representing Ireland all over the world. My understanding is that the Department invites people of a particular grade and upward to apply for these positions and it is a matter for suitable candidates of both genders to apply. If there are not sufficient numbers of women candidates submitted to Cabinet for approval, there is nothing that can be done.

As a Fianna Fáil politician, I would answer in the affirmative to the four questions put forward today by Ms McKay. Our report, for which Senator Bacik was the rapporteur, shows that we have been very supportive in our efforts to ensure there is greater participation in politics by women. My party has made great efforts over many years to change the existing process and to ensure we have an inclusive and all-engaging system that offers full opportunity for women at every level of the organisation. We have even changed our national structures.

As I pointed out when the committee was debating this issue last year with former female Ministers, all of whom have done an outstanding job, the result of that has not been all positive. For example, we changed our rules to ensure that membership of our national governing body, which previously comprised 15 places that were subject to open competition, would henceforth comprise ten men and ten women. Where before we had 40, 50 or 60 people competing for 15 positions, we now have a maximum of 25 candidates looking to fill those positions. We have made positive changes, but I do not know why they are not having the intended impact. We have a rule that in local elections and, in so far as possible, national elections, we have at least one female candidate on a ticket if we can find a suitable candidate to come forward. I have approached many women in the past to come forward but there is a great reluctance to enter the political field. The National Women's Council and women in general must seek to change that mindset. One fifth of Cabinet members are women and we have had a breakthrough on the other part of the island where the new SDLP leader is the first female leader of a political party. Women are making major impacts wherever there is an opportunity for them to do so.

Returning to the issue of diplomatic representation, women have made outstanding ambassadors who have shown themselves to be incredibly capable. We are proud to have worked with them and to have seen at first hand the impact they can make. However, I would have a question to put to Ms McKay. In the next general election, what can the council do to promote and support each candidate in a practical way, irrespective of whether or not she is a member of a political party? As somebody who has been in politics for almost three decades, I will do all I can to ensure we have a greater array of talent available to the electorate, including as many women candidates as possible.

Senator Lisa McDonald

I welcome Ms McKay and acknowledge her work in trying to promote this matter, as well as that of Senator Bacik in authoring this report. This has become more of an issue now than was the case in the past, which is a positive development. Perhaps this is because in the modern world one can draw comparisons more readily with other countries and can see where Ireland is going wrong to an extent. Ms McKay mentioned the five "Cs", namely, child care, cash, confidence, culture and candidate selection procedures. I will hone in on two of them, namely, culture and candidate selection procedures.

As Deputy Treacy noted, the Fianna Fáil Party has made huge efforts to improve its success rate in running women on the tickets. However, I am unsure how this fits in when one considers the Fianna Fáil model. I refer to the fact that the party has eight female Deputies, six of whom are from dynasties and two of whom are not. Moreover, one of the latter was elected for the first time in 2007 when the wind was at our back, so to speak. In any event, for Fianna Fáil women, the message that goes out is to ask what is the point in pursuing a political career if one is not from outside Dublin. The statistics appear to demonstrate that unless one's father preceded one in politics, one will not receive the requisite support. While I am unsure how much work has been done on this issue, the reason for this is that, by and large, one then has ready-made campaign and fund-raising teams. This constitutes a barrier that female candidates, particularly in the bigger parties, will not be able to readily surmount. One must hone in on such minutiae. However, it is all right to apply a broad brush, which is all that can be done at present in a report like this. For the present, I support the proposed candidate quota system because it constitutes the best start in respect of getting all political parties to move in this regard and I do not believe a more extreme change will happen. Moreover, I believe that the more women who get elected, the easier it will become for others.

However, my concern is that culture is a major issue. I was on a ticket in the 2007 general election with two men. In fairness to Deputy Connick, we both were first-time candidates and we had been elected to Wexford County Council on the same day. However, had I been from New Ross, I would have been elected but I am from Wexford town, which is a Labour Party stronghold. While it is all very well to declare that the ticket will be balanced and that 40% of candidates will be women, unless those women are based in winnable seats, ultimately this will turn out to be a token gesture. It is important to realise this point and not gloss over it. I note that while the Labour Party has achieved parity of numbers or certainly is close to it, the bigger parties have not succeeded in this regard. This is because, in general, the latter run two or three people on a ticket in a multi-seat constituency. Consequently, the supporters of such a party will have a choice of a woman or a man and it is more the norm to tick the box in favour of a man. Moreover, it is more the norm that some women do not support women candidates or will ask their husbands how to vote, which is a huge cultural issue.

Members must hone in on issues such as those raised by Ms McKay, including paternity leave, breaking down the cultural barriers and spending more time in Parliament on issues that affect women such as domestic violence, sexual offences legislation and so on. How much work has the council done in this regard? While I was struck by the work of Professor Yvonne Galligan that went into preparing this report, I am unsure how many unsuccessful female candidates were asked for their opinions. At present, we are in a good position to make progress and there is sufficient energy to try to deal with this issue. This certainly is true of my male colleagues as well, for whom it is also embarrassing to have only eight female Deputies in the great Fianna Fáil Party, for example. This is not necessarily something to be proud of and much work remains to be done. Hopefully it will be done and I note that the Minister of State, Deputy Moloney, is highly engaged with this issue. He appears to want to try to deal with it, which is positive.

Chairman

Perhaps Ms McKay will respond to the remarks of Deputy Treacy and Senator McDonald.

Ms Susan McKay

I am quite pleased to learn that Deputy Treacy feels a little chastened and chastised. It is no doubt true that the diplomatic service seeks top-class people to apply for jobs. However, were one to consider the people who are willing and available to apply for such jobs, one probably would find there are not sufficient numbers of women to go forward at the different levels. I was recently on a diplomatic trip abroad in the company of some people who are in the higher echelons of the Department of Foreign Affairs and one of the women concerned certainly told me it was not a woman-friendly environment. The five "Cs" do not simply apply to political selection but to selection at all levels at which choices are made. There must be some reason that all but two of the 44 aforementioned people were men. There must be some reason for this outcome and it simply cannot be that no women in this country are capable of representing it abroad. Consequently, this matter must be looked into. People must investigate the reason this is happening. At present, however, people are not even noting that it is happening, which is quite disturbing.

While I am glad to hear that Deputy Treacy's party has made huge efforts, I must say that, unfortunately, they simply have not worked because we have not seen the emergence of the level of female representation that is needed to have genuine democracy. In feminist circles, we tend to talk as much about greasy floors as about glass ceilings. Many women are concentrated on the bottom and a few women are trying to get through at the top. However, it is necessary to have women at all levels to ensure the presence of women who have a chance of advancing and of being selected for the highest positions. While Deputy Treacy used the phrase, "if we can find a suitable candidate", the point is that one must look for such candidates. There must be a vigorous search for women who can be mentored, promoted and brought up through the ranks in order that they will be capable of being selected when it comes to an election.

In response to Deputy Treacy's question on what can the National Women's Council of Ireland do to promote and support candidates, we can promote and support this type of report and its work. This report contains many incredibly valuable suggestions as to how women can be mentored and brought through the political process. It is not necessarily a natural thing in this political culture for a woman to think that she could be a Deputy, which is a point that Ms Liz O'Donnell addressed in an interesting way in her contribution to the report.

In terms of staffing, the National Women's Council of Ireland actually is a very small organisation. It exists as an umbrella group for its member organisations, of which I am happy to note there are 170 and rising. However, the council only has a staff of five and a board which supports that staff. Consequently, we cannot do a huge amount of on-the-ground work with women. This is the task of the political parties, which have been doing so for years for male candidates. They simply must work on ways of doing so for woman.

As for Senator MacDonald's comments, I agree that all the five "Cs" must be addressed at every level and that, in particular, culture and candidate selection must be highlighted. Culture is of course fundamental to the entire issue. As the Senator observed, eight Deputies, six of whom are from dynasties, is not a very good record. I welcome her comment in support of quotas. I acknowledge that women must be put forward for seats that are winnable. I believe there was a level of cynicism in the last local and European elections whereby a lot of women were put forward by some parties for seats those parties had no realistic chance of winning. It is true and is part of the political culture that people regard it as more of a norm to vote for a man. However, this can be changed and the report makes reference to campaigns which have been conducted in other countries to challenge people's perception of what a politician looks like. It refers to one country in which a poster campaign was conducted that included men in high-heeled shoes. There is a piece of work to be done about challenging people's assumption that the person in a particular job will be a man. However, it can be done and the National Women's Council has been trying to do it through our campaign, entitled "Spot the Woman", which consists of, for example, a consideration of the report that shows how, of 44 high-level positions, only two went to women. This can be done across the board. It will change people's perceptions, as they know that women are capable of taking part in public life. Women just need to be given the chance in these Houses, where important decisions affecting women's lives are taken. It is interesting to note that Ireland has the most perfect gender balance of all European countries. It is exactly 50:50, a fact we need to acknowledge.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

I thank Ms McKay for her presentation. There is a large gap between the rhetoric of political parties on participation by women and the reality. I pay tribute to my colleague, Senator Bacik, for causing this to remain an issue that ought to be properly treated in the Houses and for her work on this report.

Does Ms McKay have an opinion on the appropriateness of this committee dealing with the issue in this sense? She referred to the Minister of State, Deputy Moloney, and his work and commitment to meet party leaders, Secretaries General and so on. As the Chairman knows, this committee deals with more than 50% of the entire legislation that goes through Dáil Éireann. Its preoccupation is with legislative matters, although it must also deal with major policy issues, such as drugs, penal reform or so on.

If we are on the brink of reorganising Departments, there is a strong argument for restoring the Department of equality and law reform, which could give a higher and more sustained priority to this issue than it would otherwise get, notwithstanding Senator Bacik's vigorous pursuit of the rest of us on this committee. Irrespective of whether it could be done in conjunction with labour affairs, it is an idea the Taoiseach should take into consideration. There are equality and law reform issues that have suffered since that Department was shut off. I wonder whether Ms McKay has anything to say in this regard.

I will make a technical point. Five countries have legislated for quotas, albeit of different ranges. I know what is Ms McKay's ideal but, given our PR-STV system, what is her view on legislating for such a quota? Are we nearer the bottom end, the lowest country being 30% or 33%, than we are to the higher end because we have a multi-seat PR-STV system? Is there a technical answer?

Is the fact that the National Women's Council has temporarily ceased providing candidates the issue? My perception is that there would be no shortage of competent women candidates, at least as competent as some of the males and more so in some cases, and that the impediments are irrespective of whether we have a pipeline producing ready-made Deputies. The candidates are there, but the various hurdles identified in the report are proving to be impediments to their succeeding in Parliament, if we are discussing Sylvia Meehan's view that the heart of the matter lies in political power.

I take Ms McKay's point on the destruction of the community development programmes, which have been and should be breeding grounds for candidates. Some people might not acknowledge it, but what they are involved in is, in many ways, politics, dealing with political issues and garnering experience. The programmes' diminution will have an impact as time goes on.

Chairman

Before I call Deputy Byrne, I remind committee members that we must vacate this room by 3.20 p.m.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

I agree with Deputy Rabbitte on the departmental structure and, in particular, the structure of this committee, which has too heavy a workload. At times, one is unable to focus on any issue. Other committees meet once per fortnight and must occasionally make up discussions, but this committee never has that luxury. We always have something relevant, important and necessary to discuss. Usually, our legislation is urgent.

It was my understanding that a certain number of community development programmes were discontinued after a review. Could Ms McKay list those programmes she believes should not have been abolished in light of their role in enhancing the status of women?

In the local elections, all parties tried to put female candidates forward. This was certainly the case in County Meath. The wind was with the Opposition, namely, Fine Gael and the Labour Party. In fairness to them, they got plenty of women elected in my county. Had the wind been with us, we would have more women elected. Our councillors who have seats were, generally speaking, incumbents, who have an automatic advantage over men and women coming up behind them. Where there were opportunities for the Opposition to win seats in County Meath, many of them were won by women, which is to be welcomed. Fianna Fáil had women candidates in County Meath, some of whom only narrowly lost. I had a hand in selecting some of them and was keen to do so.

Section 5.2 of the report makes a number of recommendations on enhancing the role of women in politics who are currently in politics. Some of these recommendations also apply to young men, particularly young fathers. I can relate to some of them. I needed to bring my children, who are only one and two years of age, around the county on Saturday because my wife was working and I could not tell constituents that I could not meet them. I was glad to be able to bring them, as it is great that I can keep my family involved, but there will be times when I will not be able to do so or fulfil my duties at constituency level in particular. We could cross off Dáil time, which is not family time, although I try to bring my family here whenever I can. If my wife is not working, my family is often around the Houses. As such, it is important to bear in mind that some of these are not just issues for women, but also for young fathers.

Ms Susan McKay

Deputy Rabbitte's comments on the gap between rhetoric and reality is central to the matter, as all political parties agreed there was a problem and stated they intended to do something about it, but they do not seem willing to face the evidence, that is, what they have been doing has not been effective. The exception is the Labour Party, which has made considerable strides in this direction. We commend the Labour Party on taking this issue with due seriousness.

I agree with the Deputy that it would be more appropriate to have a Department of equality and law reform instead of trying to fit the question of women's rights and equality into other Departments. Last year, the national women's strategy was torn apart at the seams in the name of paying for Garda overtime and the like because the strategy is covered by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. This was done in the name of paying for Garda overtime because we are in the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform at present. We were told the money was needed to pay gardaí and feed asylum seekers and prisoners. Likewise if we were in the Department of Social and Family Affairs, we would be told there were other urgent needs. Of course there are other urgent needs in the Department of Social and Family Affairs. We support the idea there should be a Department that would not see women's issues and other issues of equality thrown to the bottom of the list as soon as something more obviously urgent comes along. We have said over and over again that equality is not a luxury that can be cast aside in times of hardship. We welcome any move towards giving greater status to a Department that deals with equality.

I am not in a position to answer the question about multiseat constituencies and how it would work because I do not have the technical ability to answer the question. It should be examined in the context of trying to implement the recommendations of a report like this. We should abandon the metaphor of the National Women's Council and breeding candidates. It is not a happy use of language. I agree with Deputy Rabbitte that there is no shortage of fantastic women candidates in society. They need the support identified in this report and it should be provided. The community development projects have a great number of effective women who have learned how to work political systems and decision-making through the work they are doing. They have always worked with very limited budgets. The women's networks never really belonged in the community development programme and were forced in there for want of a better home or a funding line devoted to women's projects. The National Women's Council urges a funding line for women's development projects.

Regarding Deputy Thomas Byrne's comments, this committee has too heavy a workload if it is unable to give the necessary time and attention to this matter. A great body of work is set out in the report and it cannot be passed today and implemented tomorrow. Anything that involves a cultural change will take a great deal of work across the system.

Off the top of my head, I cannot provide a list of women's projects that have been stopped. All of the programmes that did not lose funding have been put into a new structure within the partnerships and it is not a structure that suits the projects. They have developed their own ways of working, particularly involving the use of voluntary management committees and those have been done away with under the new structure. That means the way of working they have developed has been discontinued, which is unacceptable and will not work for them. We are trying to persuade the Government to consider other ways of funding women's networks so that the valuable work they do in some of the most disadvantaged communities in the country can be continued.

I support the comments on recognising male family responsibilities and I noted these in my presentation. We must consider paternity leave and must recognise that the way politics operates militates against anyone with family responsibilities. It is difficult in any sphere of life to balance work and life responsibilities but politics is an area where highly-skilled people could readily develop these kinds of changes. It has been done in the Scottish Parliament, where they considered the question of whether it is effective to have long sittings that make it impossible for people to get out to collect kids or bring them to places children need to go. That has been addressed elsewhere and the models exist. It is extremely important that this is addressed here, a matter the report addresses. It should be taken up by the political parties.

Senator Jim Walsh

I am surprised that the National Women's Council has not analysed the proportional representation and multiseat constituency system. That is something the National Women's Council should examine and evaluate to see its impact. The Joint Committee on the Constitution is examining that and it might be useful to include the committee's input.

As with all groups appearing before Oireachtas joint committees, finance is a major issue this year and for the next decade. This year we are borrowing over €22 billion to keep the show going. There will be more cuts in future all around the place and bodies such as the National Women's Council must plan on that basis. Parties have been making an effort — perhaps insufficiently — to increase the proportion of women participating in politics. I am not convinced the mandatory quota is the correct direction at present. Building blocks must be put in place to provide better foundations. This committee examined other countries such as India, which proposed a 50% quota, which one could argue for here on the basis that the population is broadly 50:50 between men and women. The women elected to parliament in India subsequently acknowledged it was a mistake and that they had gone in the wrong direction. Certain structural arrangements were attached to the system and these presented problems.

Two of the five areas mentioned are fundamental. One is the culture, which has two components. The culture is the perception of the electorate. I am often surprised by how difficult women say it is for them to get women's votes. It should not be a gender-based question but there seems to be something in the female psyche that perceives politics as a more or less male preserve. We must examine the question from this point of view. The report refers to education, which is very important. The culture must be gradually changed.

It is important we move in the direction of ensuring an increase in the number of female public representatives but that they also cover all strata of society. That the female electorate is a professional preserve is not the right way to go. There is a danger we will end up with that if we go in a certain direction. One of the strengths of these Houses is that all strands of society are represented. The cross-fertilisation of opinions of these people ultimately enhances the decision-making process. I place great emphasis on the cultural point and confidence is equally important.

There are major practical issues. I have shared an office with a very good female Senator and I was very conscious of the difficulties someone from a rural constituency has balancing lifestyle responsibilities of a family and other commitments with being a politician. Politics only appeals to a small proportion of the population. It is a very difficult job and demanding in many ways. A particular type of individual with a particular psyche, whether male and female, is encouraged to become involved in politics. I am unsure about the practical issues and how we deal with them but they must be examined and tackled. Some of these matters have been glossed over and perhaps the delegation should concentrate on practical solutions to some of the impediments.

Senator Frances Fitzgerald

I am not a member of this committee and I congratulate the Chairman, Senator Ivana Bacik and members of the committee for producing this report. It is very timely as the topic has gone off the agenda and this is an opportunity to put it back. It should be on the agenda because we have an embarrassingly low number of women in the Oireachtas and it is very disturbing to read and to know, as we all do here, that we have gone backwards in sharp contrast to the rest of the world. This is about monitoring the report and seeing how its recommendations will be implemented. There are also broader cultural issues and I welcome Ms McKay. I am a former chair of the National Women's Council and my interest in politics grew during that time because I saw the many issues affecting women which needed to be worked on and the low number of women in the Dáil and the Seanad.

The report is very comprehensive and makes the points that need to be made. The key question is whether we want to change this. Do people care? What will we do to make a difference? We are long past the stage of wondering whether women are available who want to be in politics as it is clear that they are, and whether there are women who can manage the very demanding lifestyle involved, because there are. In other professions, women cope in very low-paid difficult jobs and high-paid difficult jobs. The question is what we will do to deal with the barriers.

We need a more developed and sophisticated discussion on quotas. Too often there is a knee-jerk reaction when people speak about quotas and make recommendations. The report summarises very well the arguments for and against quotas. Very often, the arguments for quotas get lost in simplistic comments such as that if one is good enough one will make it anyway. I refer people to page 23, where the argument is made that quotas compensate for existing barriers which hinder women from receiving their fair share of political seats and do not discriminate against individual men. The argument is also made that they encourage political parties to look at the broader issue and admit they have only a tiny percentage of women elected and question what is their obligation to our democracy to ensure there are more women elected. I suggest we have an unfinished democracy, given the low number of women elected.

Senator Walsh made a very interesting point on the PR-STV system and it does make dealing with the issue very difficult. Many countries which have dealt with this issue have done so through positive action such as quotas and it has been relatively straightforward. The new parliaments in Scotland and Wales have dealt with this issue and every second candidate is female. We have also seen how other European countries have dealt with it. The closest our system can get to it is probably a quota at candidate level for political parties. Ideally all of the political parties would adopt a measure whereby a certain percentage of the candidates put forward would be female. It is very interesting to note in the report that in many constituencies we gave people no gender choice. Political parties are very interested in providing geographic and social choice but the issue of gender choice has been low down the list. Perhaps the committee will consider bringing the political parties before it to respond to this report and see what initiatives can be taken. It is very clear that there will not be a great change in the numbers without positive action, and this is certainly true of the next general election, given what happened in the most recent election and the likely candidates in all parties. Without some type of positive action we will not see Ireland increasing its percentage of women representatives.

The document also raises issues of cultural factors some of which, as Deputy Byrne stated, apply to young men with families in the same way as they do to women with families, including child care issues. Broader cultural issues, such as education, will also have to be addressed. The evidence is that when women are on the ballot paper the public are happy to vote for them. It is not a question that men or women do not want to vote for women; we have gone beyond that and it is a question of giving constituencies choice and having women on the ticket. Very often they are not there. The candidate selection issue is key. Politics is a very competitive business and this is not an easy issue to address. However, given the proportional representation system we have, the possibility of positive action in candidate selection will be key. I would welcome Ms McKay's views on this.

Ms Susan McKay

I know we have only a few minutes so I will not go through all of the detail of what was stated. With regard to Senator Walsh's point that there will be more cuts and that the National Women's Council should plan accordingly, the Government must ensure that this time the cuts do not disproportionately affect women, particularly those in disadvantaged communities, as happened on the previous occasion.

With regard to the perception among the electorate of there being something in the female psyche, there is something in the male psyche about politicians being male. I addressed the fact that there are ways of changing people's perceptions, sometimes by advertising campaigns which employ startling images. Psyches can and have been changed in recent years in this country on very dramatic issues such as the national question. They can also be changed on gender.

I agree completely that women should not be promoted from the professional area only. That is why we are so keen to promote the idea that we need to look after women's community groups because those are the places where women from working class communities will come forward into politics.

Senator Jim Walsh

People also come into the political system from voluntary groups which do not need State funding to be supported.

Ms Susan McKay

There needs to be continued support for organisations such as the women's networks throughout the country because they will provide skills to those who go into politics. It is certainly true that politics only appeals to a small proportion of people but it is capable of appealing to a greater proportion of women than is currently the case.

I agree with Senator Fitzgerald's comments that we are past the stage of wondering where the women are. There are plenty of able and capable women out there. The fact that they do not always come forward has much to do with the cultural barriers which exist and not with women's reluctance to be in positions of power. As Senator Fitzgerald stated, women cope with all types of obstacles to play a role in society and the workplace.

Senator Fitzgerald also called for a sophisticated debate on quotas. In many ways, the report represents such a debate because many of the issues raised are discussed in it. There is an excellent contribution by Professor Yvonne Galligan who addressed questions on various types of quotas. The Senator's comment on unfinished democracy is absolutely true and candidate level is where we need quotas. As I stated, despite the national women's strategy, in the most recent election the main political parties did not put forward women candidates in many constituencies and did not even seem to notice that was unusual.

I agree that the political parties should come before the committee to respond to the report and that without positive action we will not achieve change. What we really need to state is that this must be done immediately. There will be another general election in the country at some stage over the next couple of years so the time to start working on this is now. We must not remain in the shameful position Ireland is in at present after the next general election.

Deputy Noel Treacy

Why does Ms McKay think women failed to support elected women politicians? Why does she think women journalists write more derogatory comments——

Senator Lisa McDonald

Hear, hear.

Deputy Noel Treacy

——about women politicians than male journalists?

Senator Lisa McDonald

Ms McKay stated there is something in the male psyche rather than in the female psyche but why is Croke Park filled to the rafters on all-Ireland day for the male finals while there is scarcely a stand full for the women's finals? Given that 50% of our electorate is female, what Ms McKay is saying does not follow through. There is a lack of science in what we are discussing.

Deputy Denis Naughten

The quality of football is usually better as well.

Senator Lisa McDonald

It can be. The camogie is fabulous.

There is only one female CEO of a public limited company in Ireland.

Ms Susan McKay

In response to the first question on why women do not support women as elected representatives, I think they do so in the same way they support male representatives. If a woman is not a good politician, she does not deserve support.

In regard to male and female psyches, I was not arguing that it is a case of either-or. One has to acknowledge there is something in both psyches but this can be changed. If one considers the sheer amount of time spent on promoting male sports on RTE, for example, there is little wonder that people turn out in droves for big GAA matches rather than for women's sports.

Senator Lisa McDonald

Is it demand-based?

Ms Susan McKay

It is neither one nor the other. Women's sports need more support. The young boxer Ms Katie Taylor recently stated that if she was a man, she would have been on the front cover of all the national newspapers when she achieved her successes.

Senator Lisa McDonald

That is my point. We need to deal with these issues if we are to solve the problem.

Ms Susan McKay

It is a question of cultural change, which is discussed in this excellent report.

Deputy Noel Treacy

What about the journalistic question? Why do women journalists write more derogatory articles about women politicians than male journalists?

Ms Susan McKay

I do not think that is a scientific observation.

Deputy Noel Treacy

They do for sure.

Senator Lisa McDonald

I can cite a very good example.

Deputy Denis Naughten

I could pick out at least ten in the past six months.

Chairman

We will have to return to that issue. I thank Ms McKay for her contribution to the committee's deliberations on this matter, which is something we will revisit.

The joint committee went into private session at 3.22 p.m. and adjourned at 3.30 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 31 March 2010.