Joint Committee on Legislation debate -
Wednesday, 7 Nov 1984

Modus Operandi of Sub-Committee.

Chairman

I thank you for the honour of electing me Chairman. As you know, we are a sub-committee which the Joint Committee has appointed under paragraph (2) of its orders of reference to consider the Bankruptcy Bill, 1982 which was referred by the Dáil to the Joint Committee with the concurrence of the Seanad, pursuant to paragraph (1) (e) of the Orders of Reference. I know we are facing into a number of months of very difficult work. I welcome the Minister for Justice, Deputy Michael Noonan, and the spokesman for the Opposition, Deputy Michael Woods. I know that they both have had a long and heavy day. We welcome their presence and we will not keep them very long.

There are a number of procedural matters we would like to discuss such as the way in which we are going to proceed. We should also bear in mind that what we do may set precedents for future committees in discussing Bills of this kind. We should as far as is possible within Standing Orders allow ourselves the greatest degree of flexibility so that we can process this important legislation without losing attention to detail but, on the other hand, without tying ourselves down in an over-cumbersome way.

In regard to the latest date for submission of amendments, I propose that we might go into private session and discuss informally the way in which we intend to proceed and perhaps get the views of the Minister and Deputy Woods at this stage or fix a date where we can informally take their views. We all realise that they have had a hard day in the House and it might be fairer to them and to the sub-committee, unless something else comes up under "Any other business", if we adjourn the rest of the business and go into private session.

Deputy Connolly

I wish you well on your election as Chairman. You can be assured that my party will give you full co-operation. We take every Bill as it comes and we reserve our decisions on each Bill. It would be the general idea that the sub-committee would not wish to tie itself to what issues we would debate on the other Bills that may come along. We decide now on the procedure we will follow in regard to this Bill.

Senator Fallon

I hope the rest of the Bills that come to us will not be as complex and as heavy as this Bill. Having read through it, I found it extremely difficult to understand many of the sections, procedures and so on. As a layman without any legal training, it is very difficult for me to deal with it. I make this point at an early stage and hope that we will have the back-up services of civil servants and the necessary documentation. I found the explanatory memorandum very helpful. I have not much knowledge of Bills. This Bill is extremely complex.

Deputy Taylor

I join with Deputy Connolly in congratulating you on your appointment as Chairman of this very important sub-committee which has a major task ahead of it. I can assure you of the full co-operation of all members of this sub-committee. The work that we are engaged on is non-partisan. We will have the task of bringing in a major review of the bankruptcy and insolvency law, a review that has not taken place in Ireland since the foundation of the State. The last law that the bankruptcy procedures operate under was dated 1857, more than 100 years ago. The whole procedure, understandably in that context, is very technical, very cumbersome, complex and antiquated. It is that fact that causes me a little bit of concern and I would be interested to hear the Minister's comments on what the thinking is on the measure at this stage, having regard to this fact.

The Bill in the form that it now comes before the sub-committee, first saw the light of day some ten years ago or thereabouts. I understand it has been brought forward but time was never found, for whatever reason in the various Dála to progress it further. Accordingly it represents a possible statement of the law and what might have been regarded ten years ago as reasonable and a fair position for bankruptcy law as it was then. During the past decade there has been quite a bit of new thinking about the whole concept of insolvency legislation and how business people who find themselves unable to pay their debts should be dealt with. I am a bit concerned that as the Bill comes forward with a ten year date on it, it is somewhat out of date and perhaps should be capable of some substantial improvement by way of amendment in this sub-committee based on the more recent and more modern thinking on this subject, notably exemplified in a very recent and detailed report on this whole subject which came out in the United Kingdom in June 1982.

The Bill was based on our own Bankruptcy Law Commission's report which we have been circulated with here today. This report is dated 1972, and in 12 years we have seen quite modernistic new thinking on this subject.

The extent of innovation and change in the procedure is not that great. There are some modernisations in it, but for the most part the Bill is really a codification and restatement of the law as it stands since 1857. Having regard to this item on the agenda, which is the latest date for submission of amendments, I was interested in knowing whether there is any thinking on the Minister's part on the question of amendments and whether he intends bringing forward any major amendments. If so, it would put us in a better position to decide how we will tackle the matter from here on out.

Deputy Connolly

I agree that both the Minister and Deputy Woods have had a very heavy day and I would not wish, and the Members would not wish, to burden them by going into many details because, as Deputy Taylor pointed out, this is quite a complex Bill. If we could arrange another date I would be in agreement.

Chairman

I fully agree with Deputy Connolly. I would like to propose that we go into private session and that the members of the committee discuss with the officials of the Department of Justice as to what the up-to-date position is, that is, to have an informal off the record discussion to brief ourselves and dispense with the presence and services of the Minister and Deputy Woods. They are welcome to stay if they wish, but I suspect they may wish to take a well earned break. If that is agreed, we can have a short discussion with the officials and the clerk to the sub-committee to agree on future procedure.

Minister for Justice (Mr. Noonan, Limerick East)

Thank you very much for your consideration and I congratulate you on your election as Chairman of the sub-committee. I will answer Deputy Taylor's point. I think a draft Bill was published with the Commission's report in 1972. The Bill before you has been updated, especially the show cause procedure which emerged in the seventies after the report was published. That is taken into account in section 16. Amendments have been made subsequent to the report. It is not our intention to bring forward any amendments here, except in so far as the committee think it necessary to amend. At the moment we do not have amendments in mind.

Deputy Taylor

That is all I wanted to know.

Deputy Woods

I, too, congratulate the Chairman on his appointment, although I do not know whether I should commiserate with him. I thank you for your concern and consideration. You were talking about the way we might order business. I was involved in the Social Welfare (Consolidation) Bill which nearly broke several of us at the time. We found it very helpful if the officials were available and could comment freely. In that informal way we made a lot of progress in very difficult areas. We might find the same procedure of value here when going through the different sections because we all agree this is a very technical Bill and it is very important to understand what is in it. Many members of the sub-committee may have views on what is in this Bill once they understand the implications clearly and develop a relationship with the officials who have studied it so intensely and have a far greater understanding of the details. This can be very valuable. I wish the sub-committee good luck.

Chairman

I would not want to preempt the decision of the sub-committee as what our procedure should be but I suspect that is the way people will want to operate.

Senator O'Leary

In those informal discussions on the social welfare consolidation legislation, was the Minister always, of necessity, present, or did the informal discussions take place without the Minister? What was the position?

Deputy Woods

I was trying to get the Bill through. There had been several attempts before which had failed because of intervening elections and whatever else. I was certainly determined to get it through and we just kept on going. We spent some long hours getting it through.

Senator O'Leary

Was it in your capacity as Minister that you were there?

Deputy Woods

Yes, but it was all done on a very informal, friendly basis. As we were dealing with social welfare, some members did tend to talk for a while. I doubt if this sub-committee would do that. That made it very difficult for us at times because it was a very big undertaking. All sides would be interested in seeing a good and effective conclusion to this Bill. I am not used to being Opposition spokesman at one of these committees, but we can decide later exactly how much I should or should not say. My contributions to this legislation will be constructive and I hope this legislation will be updated as early as possible.

Chairman

We should postpone a decision on the question of the latest date for submission of amendments. Any other business? In that case, I thank the Minister and Deputy Woods.

The sub-committee went into private session.

The sub-committee adjourned sine dieat 5.30 p.m.