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Joint Committee on Public Petitions and the Ombudsmen debate -
Thursday, 23 May 2024

Reopening of Ennis, Nenagh and St. John's Emergency Departments: Discussion

Public petition No. P00036/22, reopen Ennis, Nenagh and St. John's emergency departments, is from the Mid-West Hospital Campaign group. I will explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards reference witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. They are again reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity, by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity.

Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Before we hear from our witnesses, I propose that we publish their opening statements on the committee’s website. Is that agreed? Agreed. On behalf of the committee, I would like to extend a warm welcome to the Minister, Deputy Donnelly, and his officials from the Department of Health. We are joined by Ms Siobhán McArdle, assistant secretary with responsibility for unscheduled care, and Ms Tracey Conroy, assistant secretary with responsibility for acute hospitals oversight and performance. Also joining us from the Health Service Executive are Dr. Colm Henry, chief clinical officer, and Dr. Rosa McNamara, consultant in emergency medicine, St. Vincent’s University Hospital, Dublin, and adviser to the emergency medicine programme.

I suggest that our witnesses make their opening statements for around five to ten minutes. When all the witnesses have made their opening statements, we will have questions and comments from members. Each member will have approximately ten minutes. To make it clear, I will be keeping it to ten minutes because the Minister has to be gone by 3 p.m. That will allow everybody to get in and should give people an opportunity to come back in a second time. Members may speak more than once. I call on the Minister to make his opening statement.

I wish the Chair and colleagues a good afternoon. I thank them for the invitation to discuss the critical issue of providing safe and effective emergency medicine care for the people of the mid-west.

The provision of timely and high-quality urgent and emergency care is an absolute priority for this Government and the HSE. So far this year, presentations to our emergency departments are up 12%. For those aged 75 and over, presentations are up 16% on last year. Notwithstanding this, our healthcare workers are making important progress. In the first four months of this year, there were 4,600 fewer patients on trolleys than for the same period last year. That is a 12% reduction. This reduction of 4,600 patients was achieved despite 55,000 more people attending the emergency departments so far this year compared with last year. That includes an additional 10,000 elderly patients as well. The current drop in the number of patients on trolleys this year continues the reduction seen through the latter half of last year when compared with latter half of 2022.

During the lifetime of this Government, an additional 28,500 people have been appointed to work in our health service. We have added an extra 1,182 acute hospital beds, 73 critical care beds and hundreds of community beds. However, despite the investments and reforms that are ongoing, we still face challenges in emergency care in certain hospitals. As we all know, University Hospital Limerick, UHL, is the most challenged. The number of patients on trolleys this year in UHL is up 40% versus last year. This contrasts with a national reduction in trolleys of approximately 12%. This Government has invested more in UHL than in any other hospital. Staffing at the hospital has grown by over 1,200 during the lifetime of this Government. That is a 43% increase in the work force in just four years. It includes 162 more doctors, 53 more consultants and 447 more nurses and midwives as well as 119 more health and social care professionals.

Within the emergency department, since the beginning of last year, the number of emergency medicine consultants has increased by one half. It has gone from ten to 15, which is inclusive of three paediatric emergency consultants where previously there were none. The number of non-consultant hospital doctors, NCHDs, in the emergency department has more than doubled from 21 to 47. The nursing work force in the emergency department has also grown considerably from 114 to 150.

Following a meeting I had with nurses in UHL recently, I asked the chief nursing officer to visit the hospital to ensure that the safe staffing framework is being rolled out. She went to the hospital with her team and met with nursing staff and management. She confirmed with the hospital team that sufficient funding has been allocated to and, indeed, received by UHL to fully implement the safe staffing framework. However, the nurses I met told me directly that they are not all experiencing it as they should be on their wards. There is still a great deal of work to be done to ensure that while the money has been allocated, safe staffing is implemented in a meaningful way in all of the wards.

In 2019, UHL had a budget of €265 million. This year, the budget is €382 million. That is a 44% increase. This is the biggest increase in a hospital budget in the country both in cash terms and percentage increase terms. We are also investing in additional bed capacity; 150 new beds have opened in the University of Limerick Hospitals Group in the region and 108 of these, including ten critical care beds, have been in UHL. Critically, there is a strong line of further beds to come. The first new 96-bed block will be finished next year, and 71 of these 96 beds will be net additional beds, with 25 being replacement beds. The enabling works for the second 96-bed block are under way and these will all be new beds. Some 16 additional fast-build beds are being commissioned on site this year. Overall then, between the beds that have been opened by this Government and the ones that are coming, UHL will have an additional 291 beds. In order to provide extra capacity as quickly as possible, I also recently announced 70 step-down beds for UHL and these will become available over the summer. These will revert to their intended purposes as community nursing units when the first 96-bed block is opened next year.

Reformed work practices, which have proven successful in other hospitals, have also been agreed as part of this additional capacity. This includes: that senior decision-makers are rostered on site, both in the emergency department and throughout the hospital, after hours and at weekends; an all-of-hospital approach to treating emergency department patients, including presence of non-emergency department consultants to support their emergency department colleagues; a strong patient flow team in place seven days per week; weekend access to scheduled diagnostics for the emergency department; all non-long-stay beds, that is, hospital and community, will now come under one bed management system; and senior management are to have a presence on the floor early morning.

In addition, a senior expert support team was announced on 30 April. This was put in place to provide support to UHL in addressing the current pressures on health services in the mid-west and most critically, patients on trolleys in UHL. The team is made up of Ms Grace Rothwell, national director, Ms Orla Kavanagh, director of nursing and integration at Waterford University Hospital, and retired consultant in emergency medicine, Dr. Fergal Hickey. It is also worth saying that Ms Rothwell, who is now the national director, was the hospital manager in Waterford and was front and centre in turning Waterford around from being one of the most under pressure emergency departments to having had no patient on a trolley now for several years.

There has also been much-needed investment in the region’s model 2 hospitals. Overall staffing in Ennis, Nenagh and St. John’s has increased 22%. An investment last year supported the medical assessment units in the three hospitals to open 12 hours per day, seven days per week. As colleagues will be aware, we invested more money recently. These units are now moving to 24-7 opening on a phased basis. A new injury unit was opened in Ennis in 2022. I visited that injury unit and it is very effective. The staff there were hugely impressive.

There have also been numerous community measures implemented in the region to ensure integrated care. This includes the recruitment of nearly 250 additional staff into the enhanced community care programme. All eight community healthcare networks are operational in HSE mid-west and all four planned specialist teams are now operational. In normal language, this means that there are eight new primary care teams and four teams specialising in chronic disease management and supporting older people.

As colleagues will be aware, as well as all the investment that has gone in and that is committed to and in the pipeline, I also recently commissioned a review by HIQA into urgent and emergency care capacity in the mid-west. This includes examining the case for a second emergency department, which would need to be underpinned by a model 3 hospital. While this review has been welcomed, we must remain focused on the need to fix the emergency department challenges at UHL in the near term. It is essential that people in the mid-west have access to timely and high-quality urgent and emergency care. The answer to this lies in a dual approach, namely an unprecedented increase in healthcare capacity together with urgent reforms in how that care is delivered. Some of that capacity has now been delivered and there is a lot more to come. Similarly, some of the reforms have now started and there is a lot more needed. A partnership approach between Government, the HSE and the administrative and clinical leadership at UHL can and must succeed.

I thank the Minister. Unfortunately, some of the mid-west campaign group are not able to attend but I hope they are watching in. There is one person here, I hear.

I thank the Minister and HSE for coming. I will relay some of the messages we have received from the mid-west hospital action group. The group continuously raises the issue of patient dignity and says it does not exist in the corridors of the emergency department of UHL. All of us looking in regularly or daily would agree with that assessment. Lives are being lost there. That is not just us; there are others saying it. The people have endured 14 years of broken promises and failed attempts to address this blatant problem in UHL. Any solutions put forward by the Department and HSE have proved nothing more than reactive patchwork efforts. Does the Minister accept the reconfiguration has failed? Why did we have to get to 2024 before the Minister decided to commission a review into emergency care capacity in UHL?

I agree with the Chair and those who sent in those messages that this is all about patient safety. Patient dignity is critical, as well as patient safety. As I know from visiting many emergency departments and as our two doctors here know better than I, in an emergency department that is overcrowded it can be very difficult for patients to get the dignity they should and must have. That applies in UHL and in many emergency departments where there is overcrowding. Of paramount importance is patient safety. The clinical advice I have, based on research from abroad - if the two doctors with us want to contribute, they should - is that patients on trolleys pose a patient safety risk, particularly for older patients. As an experienced nurse in University Hospital Galway said to me, the corridor is an issue because it is bright and noisy. People need to rest, rehydrate and get treatment. A corridor is not a suitable place and not in line with patient safety. Everything we are doing is about reducing the number of patients on trolleys.

What we want to see in Limerick is exactly what has been achieved in Waterford, Portlaoise and Tullamore and is being achieved in more and more hospitals around the country, many of which are seeing big reductions in the number of patients on trolleys and some of which have brought that down to zero. I have said from day one, the answer consists of two things: capacity and reform. The bit everyone focuses on is capacity and the first time I visited UHL as Minister, the senior team in UHL rightly put it up to me and the Government by saying they needed more investment, beds, doctors, nurses, health and social care professionals, community-based teams, injury units and pathways other than coming into the ED.

While it is successful in places that have more EDs, the mid-west has over 400,000 people being served by just UHL. The other areas the Minister mentioned have EDs closer to the main hospitals than the mid-west has. Those 400,000 people are travelling a distance to get there. Is the problem not that there are not enough EDs within range of Limerick?

A range of issues is being looked at. I will come to the second emergency department in a moment. The point I am making is that to achieve the change we want in UHL, two things have to happen: capacity has to increase and there have to be substantial changes in how the hospital is run and care is delivered.

University Hospital Waterford before Grace Rothwell went in was the worst performing emergency department in terms of trolleys in the countries. If it was not the worst, it was one of the worst. It is now the best. It achieved that through two things: additional capacity in beds and staff in the hospital and fundamental change in how the hospital was run. Anyone in Waterford will say if you walked in at 7 a.m. she was in there asking: "Why is this patient here? Why has this bed not been turned around? Why have we not got this patient back into the community or a homecare package?" They turned it around. When I met the ED team in Waterford, I asked how it had been able to do what other hospitals have failed to do. The senior consultant said it was because they were there when their patients were sick, in the evening and at weekends and they had support from consultant and nursing colleagues across the hospital.

Do we need more investment? We do. That is why we have invested more in UHL than any other hospital in the country and why there are nearly 200 beds, in addition to that, being built on site. Capacity on its own is not enough. The recent HIQA report noted, very encouragingly, that the reforms we have been looking for are beginning to happen and there is much more that can be done.

On the Chair's question as to whether the region needs a second emergency department, I have asked HIQA, as the independent regulator, to look at that, with the clear caveat that there can only be an emergency department if there is a model 3 hospital. I will ask Dr. Henry to come in but the clear clinical advice I have is an emergency department attached to a model 2 hospital is simply unsafe.

Dr. Colm Henry

The question of whether there should be another emergency department cannot be looked at in isolation because an emergency department does not exist in isolation but in the context of a range of supports people would expect to deliver outcomes for the complexity of conditions and treatment we have in 2024. Those background services include HDU beds, critical care beds, 24-7 cover for surgery, anaesthesia, medicine and diagnostics up to and including CAT scan, and laboratory diagnostics. Whatever about the troubles we face concerning the safety and dignity of patients in UHL, patients going into an emergency department have to expect the department, the services supporting it and the specialties to address all conditions up to and including complex conditions requiring complex intervention. The question of an additional emergency department cannot be differentiated from that of an additional model 3 hospital.

The Minister mentioned the 36-bed block. We have been hearing about this 36-bed block for a long time. When will those beds be open for patients? Have we a timeline for the 16 additional fast-build beds?

I think you mean the 96-bed block.

I believe we take that block over in quarter 1 of next year and 71 of those beds will be net new beds, while 25 while be replacement beds. On the 16-bed block, I have asked the HSE and it has committed to it, subject to procurement. It has to follow a legal process. The HSE has committed that, subject to procurement, that will be towards the end of this year.

Committee members have indicated we let Members in from that region. I ask witnesses to keep answers short because there is a big crowd here and the Minister wishes to leave at 3 p.m. We want to let everybody in. I call Deputy Shortall.

Thanks very much, Chair. I thank the Minister for his presentation. On Sláintecare and the reconfiguration of the HSE and the RHAs, one of the key principles of that proposal is that there would be objective resource allocation to each RHA. I am just checking. I take it the Minister supports the principle that we need to end the postcode lottery and ensure all resources are allocated fairly.

Not only do I support it, but we are moving to the regions this year and have the six executives in place. This year we will do the budget as normal but with a regional allocation to show.

As I am sure the Deputy will accept, it will not be perfect to begin with.

We will then move to regional budgeting.

Does the Minister agree with the principle?

Okay. Taking that principle of fair allocation of resources, when we look down through the existing hospital groups - and leaving aside CHI there are six hospital groups - we see that most of the hospital groups have two level four hospitals. Most of them have three level three hospitals. In fact, one hospital group has four level three hospitals. UHL is a complete outlier because it only has one level four hospital and no level three hospitals at all. There is something seriously wrong with that allocation of resources. Would the Minister accept that?

I have asked HIQA to come back to me with an answer on exactly that because if HIQA recommends a second ED - and I have no idea whether or not it will - what I have put into the terms of reference is that only comes with a model 3 hospital. We will have an independent expert view on that.

Sure, but this point has been resisted for the last few years. It was blindingly obvious that there was an error made in the original reconfiguration of hospitals if there is one hospital group that does not have a level three hospital and therefore no ED. This has been resisted. Many of us have been raising this for quite some time and the Minister has resisted that and people are paying a high price for that, the fact that this principle was not addressed. There are a few of the hospital groups that have two level four hospitals for example, plus three level three hospital so it is a completely unfair allocation of resources.

When we look at the allocation of consultant posts that is even more stark because all of the other hospital groups have in the region of 600 to 700 consultants. Then, looking at the UHL group it has 230 consultants. It is way down with regard to hospitals, to appropriate beds, to EDs and to consultants. How can we expect UHL to be functioning properly and at an acceptable level for patient safety if it is so bereft of resources?

As I said to the Deputy, there is no hospital in Ireland that has had more additional resources than UHL. It has had a 43% increase in its budget in the lifetime of this Government. That is unheard of. UHL has had an extra 1,2000 staff. That is unheard of. There is no other hospital getting that kind of additional resource. Talking about the consultants, an extra 49 consultants are in place now. I agree with the premise of going back to 2020. I do agree with it. That is why we have invested at the level we have. Even with that investment I want to go further and make sure as we move to the regions that there is balanced capacity-----

Sorry, if the Minister does not mind me interrupting I am talking about the current situation, the kind of level of resources that have been available to UHL up to now and the resistance at official and ministerial level to addressing that shortcoming of resources.

I think I would entirely disagree with that proposal and the data is unambiguous. We have invested more in UHL than in any hospital in the country so to suggest there is some-----

If I can just finish, to suggest we are somehow resisting resourcing a hospital where the data clearly shows we have resourced it more than any hospital in the country simply does not stack up.

The Minister likes quoting figures and I saw the report that was published recently by the Irish Government Economic and Evaluation Service. It is a good thing to measure activity because we have to ensure we get productivity. As the Minister said, that chart shows that UHL has gotten more resources cash-wise and staff-wise than any other hospital. I am sure the Minister will agree that those figures only mean something if we know what the base figures were. It is all very well to say UHL has gotten a whole lot in the last couple of years but what was the starting point? The kinds of figures I quoted to the Minister now in terms of the beds, category of hospitals - no level three hospitals and only one level four hospital - and only a fraction of the consultants that the other hospital groups have are much more meaningful than to say UHL has gotten more resources than anywhere else in the past few years. If UHL started from such a low base clearly it has not even come close to catching up with the other hospital groups.

All I can talk to is what has happened during the lifetime of this Government. I am not here to defend the ratios in 2020-----

I am not asking the Minister to do that.

-----but what I can say very clearly is I agree with the Deputy's analysis of the starting point and in response to that we have resourced this hospital more than any other hospital in the country. We have to resource other hospitals as well.

Would the Minister accept that UHL, in terms of the kind of operating level and resources it has at its disposal, still is not even close to any of the other hospital groups?

If the Deputy visits the site, which I am sure she has, she will see the physical manifestation of that which is in-----

Those figures I am quoting do not lie.

What I am saying to the Deputy is there are two 96-bed blocks being built on site at the moment. When they are finished they will be fully staffed. That means more nurses, more health and social care professionals and more consultants. If the Deputy is asking me if UHL needs more and if the region needs more, absolutely it does and we will continue to invest.

The Deputy has two minutes left.

I thank the Chair. One of the things I have been trying to get my hands on for quite some time is details of the catchment population for each hospital group. I am sure the Minister has that available to him as does the HSE but it has not been made available publicly. Will the Minister give a commitment to provide those figures to us because again that is another matrix that allows objective judgment of the resource allocation?

What we can do is give that information for the new regions. The complication of the hospital groups is that they overlap all over the place, as the Deputy knows. There are several hospital groups in Dublin that cover overlapping areas so it has never really been possible to say this is the population served by all of the hospital groups but we can for the regions. That is one of the great advantages. We can provide that information on a regional basis. I think Dr. Henry wanted to come in on something.

Dr. Colm Henry

Just a few things, quickly. The model 2 status emanated, as I am sure the Deputy will remember, from a regional HIQA review which itself was initiated in response to safety concerns over the volume and complexity of cases coming to what are now model 2 hospitals and which resulted in the smaller hospitals framework document. Yes, the mid-west is unique in that it does not have a model 3 hospital but the reason those model 3 hospitals became model 2 hospitals was in response to those - that original HIQA investigation and the smaller hospitals framework. The second point on the populations-----

Sure, we know the history of this but it is the rationale for that, that clearly did not exist when the reconfiguration happened and it does not exist now. Why has there been resistance to accepting that?

Dr. Colm Henry

What I would say if the question is, should an ED be reestablished, it can only be reestablished in the context of a full, functioning model 3 hospital.

Sure, that is the point we have been making for some time. And it is only very lately-----

Dr. Colm Henry

For a model 3 hospital-----

-----that the Minister has conceded that point.

Dr. Colm Henry

If I could just-----

I just wonder why the Minister is changing his mind about having a look at this question of a model 3 hospital given that he has resisted it.

Again, I flatly reject the suggestion there has been any resistance. The Deputy is talking about a region------

The Minister has been quoting clinical advice for years.

The Deputy is talking about a region that has had an unprecedented level of investment.

There is a further level of investment in the pipeline and I have now asked the independent regulator to assess the case for a second ED.

Does the Minister disagree with any of the figures I provided today?

I'll just finish on this as well.

Will the Minister do it quickly?

I have said publicly many times I do not believe the reconfiguration was done properly. I fully accept the advice that led to the closing of the EDs but the kinds of resources that are being put in place now should have been put in place back then. That is exactly how we have approached Navan hospital, for example, to say we are not making any changes until the extra capacity is in place.

The Minister has been in government for four years.

In those four years we have added record levels of investment.

Okay, Senator Gavan is next.

I thank the Chair. It is good to see the Minister.

I am so frustrated in relation to this issue and it is perhaps because this started for me in 2009, when I was a SIPTU official, and the then Fianna Fáil Government decided to shut down Nenagh hospital's accident and emergency department. We then saw the Fine Gael-Labour Party Government ignore it for the next five years. I want to pay tribute to the Mid-West Hospital Campaign group for being so persistent in highlighting the disaster that has unfolded since.

My first question to the Minister requires a simple "Yes" or "No" answer. Would he accept that UHL was in crisis when he took office as the Minister in 2020?

I will come to that, but the Senator opened with a nakedly political point, which is, of course, his right. I am, though, going to respond with one. Sinn Féin has not called for the reopening of the accident and emergency departments. The party's spokesperson, and I believe he deserves great credit for this, resisted these calls and said he would follow the clinical advice. The unambiguous clinical advice we have, and Dr. Henry is here and he can reiterate it, is that to reopen accident and emergency departments in those hospitals, as they stand, would be very dangerous. So-----

The question I asked the Minister was if he accepts that UHL was in crisis when he took office in 2020? It is a question requiring a "Yes" or "No" answer.

Certainly, when I took office, the situation not just in UHL but in several hospitals around the country in terms of trolleys was very challenging. One thing I would add, though, is that I acknowledge the healthcare workforce in UHL. This is something that gets very little attention because we all, very understandably, focus on the accident and emergency department. Those workers have brought down their waiting lists very significantly in the last few years.

The Minister has still not answered the question, though. A simple "Yes" or "No" will suffice.

The Minister has not.

I will answer the questions as I see fit. The Senator can ask the question he wants and I will give him an answer.

The Minister will not even answer a straight "Yes" or "No" question. I will say it for the Cathaoirleach. I believe UHL was in deep crisis in 2020 and has been now for several years. The hospital trolley figures in 2020, and I am quoting the figures given by the INMO, which the Minister accepted when he was in the Opposition but does not seem to accept any more, were that 9,875 patients were on trolleys. Last year, that figure had grown to 21,409 patients. Through a whole series of awful tragedies and their outworkings, we have seen that this hospital is in the deepest crisis and has got worse over the last four years. The number of people on trolleys has doubled.

My next question is very straightforward. In this context, why has it taken the Minister four years to call for a HIQA review of the emergency care capacity in the mid-west? Sinn Féin has been calling on the Minister to do this since he took office, but it has taken him four years to do it. He only has one year left, maximum, to actually ask for this review. Is this not a catastrophic failure on the part of the Minister in terms of failing the people of the mid-west?

The Minister cited Waterford earlier. The difference is that it has three model 3 hospitals around it, whereas Limerick does not have any. This issue has been brought to the attention of the Minister year after year, and only now, after four years, has he decided we need the review that we and the Mid-West Hospital Campaign group have been telling him we need for years.

That is not why Waterford succeeded. That hospital succeeded because it got extra capacity and it fundamentally changed how it cared for patients. The Senator does not have to take my word for this. He can go down to Waterford-----

Between 2019 and 2023, 239 patients died on trolleys.

-----and talk to the patients and ask the people running the accident and emergency department.

Some 239 patients died on trolleys.

To be very clear, Sinn Féin's publicly stated position is not to reopen those three accident and emergency departments.

No. Our publicly stated position-----

The Senator is asking me how I responded to UHL-----

-----called for that review for the last four years and it has taken the Minister four years to accept it. That is not acceptable.

-----and the way we responded was to invest at a record rate.

I ask that we let each other finish our statements and answers.

I am trying to answer the question.

If the Minister would answer a straight question, then I would do so.

I ask the Cathaoirleach for his guidance. I am happy to answer questions but being shouted at while trying to answer them is not helpful. Can I just get the Cathaoirleach's guidance on this point?

I ask that the Minister be allowed to answer the question and then Senator Gavan can come back in.

I thank the Cathaoirleach very much. In response to the Senator, we have invested in growing capacity not just in UHL but in the region at a level that has never been seen. We have an additional 1,200 staff and 108 beds, and nearly 200 more beds are being built on-site. We have invested-----

The hospital is short of 200 beds today.

-----in the hospitals in Ennis and Nenagh and in St. John's and in community care. What is happening in UHL is not happening in other hospitals. In just this year, other hospitals that have seen and are dealing with similar increases in presentations are driving down the trolley numbers. This time last year, the trolley count was lower than the previous year. This year, it has gone up about 40%. In response to that, I have asked the regulator to consider if there is a case to be made for a second accident and emergency department in the region.

I am just conscious of time. The trolley count the Minister is quoting, by the way, is a TrolleyGAR figure, which, as we know, excludes people who have not yet been admitted to the hospital even though they are on a trolley. It also excludes people who are on trolleys but outside the accident and emergency department. This is a whole other conversation, however, and I do not want to spend the last four minutes disputing figures.

Just for the record, that is a false statement.

It is not false.

I am more than happy to provide the reality of the figures to the Senator if he wants.

I want to ask the Minister about the recruitment embargo and its impact right now on UHL. Being a former trade union official, I have spoken to my colleagues in the union movement representing the workers in that hospital. They have told me that as recently as four weeks ago there was a deficit of 200 nurses there. They have told me that right now, there is a deficit of 24 people in catering, seven porters and 14 hygiene staff, all of whom are absolutely essential. They told me that the impact of the embargo is that there is a very slow derogation process because everything has to be run through not just the HSE's local chief officers or the regional executive officers but the CEO himself, Mr. Gloster. It is taking months for these decisions to be made and this is further impacting, right now, on the already existing crisis. In case anyone is in any doubt, by the time this week is over we will have had 10,000 patients on trolleys in the year to date. It is getting worse again this year. I ask the Minister, therefore, to talk to me about the recruitment embargo and what steps he is undertaking to lift it. I ask this because the other point here is that we have people being hired on temporary contracts rather than for proper full-time jobs.

My final question is crucial because the Minister mentioned a 96-bed unit. I had confirmation today that no recruitment has yet been sanctioned for this unit. When we consider it takes six to nine months to hire essential staff like nurses, this means that in practice, this 96-bed unit will not open in the first quarter of next year because the recruitment process has not even been sanctioned yet.

I thank the Senator. Just to be clear, his characterisation of how both INMO and the HSE count the trolley figures is incorrect. In terms of the staff in UHL, the numbers of nurses, doctors, consultants and health and social care professionals there have gone up in the last year.

It is not just a question-----

The total number of staff in UHL now has increased by 42% compared to 2020.

The Minister is not answering the question. I asked about the embargo. He is just rambling with figures.

There are 1,200 more healthcare professionals working in that one hospital than there were four years ago. To suggest, therefore, that the embargo, which I know is having an impact on specialist teams because I have spoken to the nurses and doctors, is somehow responsible for what is going on in respect of the increase in trolley figures this year simply does not stack up in a hospital that has 1,200 more people working in it than it did last year.

The other point on the embargo is that it applies to all the hospitals and not just to UHL. Despite the embargo, however, nearly all the other hospitals that have seen similar increases in the numbers coming in are driving down the trolley numbers. The question we must ask ourselves, then, is if the other hospitals are all reducing the number of patients on trolleys while seeing a similar increase in the numbers of patients coming in, what is going on in UHL this year that is different from last year?

My belief is that we are now beginning to see in UHL the significant changes in how the hospital is run and patient flow managed that we have seen in other hospitals. We need to see this process accelerated. The evidence from around the country, certainly, is that this will make a difference.

I put it to the Minister that the derogation process takes far too long. I put this point to him because this is what I am hearing from the staff, those front-line workers working in the system. The Minister has paid tribute to them. I cannot imagine how they are still coping in the hospital now. From the recent court case, we saw their workplace described as "impossible" and "horrendous". These people are heroes. I must put it to the Minister that he has let them down. It has taken four years for him to even decide to implement the review all of us were calling for. We have been calling for this review to be undertaken since the first day the Minister took up his portfolio but he has ignored us for four years.

In the meantime, 239 patients have died on trolleys. It is outrageous. The people of the mid-west want accountability from the Minister but he has not offered any so far.

Regarding the number of people on trolleys, there is a very important point for the people of the mid-west who are watching this. I, too, saw the report and the information provided. I might ask our emergency department consultant to give the committee a brief account because it is a very stark figure. I know people in the mid-west will have seen that figure and will have believed that this is due to overcrowding. I might ask Dr. McNamara to give a view as to, in essence, the fatalities in hospitals and emergency departments across the country.

It needs to be very brief or the Minister will be caught here after 3 p.m.

Dr. Rosa McNamara

I do not know the exact composition of that figure but it is not unusual that people in their last hours or days present to an emergency department because they are open all the time for all crises. That number sounds incredibly stark but it is not an unusual figure for a similarly sized hospital. It is not an outlier. Unfortunately, many people in hospitals-----

What is incredibly stark is that these poor people spent their last hours of life on this earth on a hospital trolley - not even a bed.

I thank the Cathaoirleach and his colleagues for allowing me to speak early. As a former management consultant, the Minister will be aware of the importance of statistics and, as a politician, the maxim "lies, damned lies and statistics". He told the Dáil that there were 2,000 new staff in UHL and prompted the then Taoiseach, Deputy Varadkar, to do so. I went off, asked lots of parliamentary questions and finally got answers and the number was considerably fewer but I did not make a big brouhaha as I did not want to embarrass the Minister in the Dáil. Would he now accept that this figure is 1,200 and not 2,000 over the lifetime of this Government?

Specifically in UHL?

It was in my opening statement.

The figure of 1,200. Is this 1,200 new posts or is it new staff? Some of those staff could be job-sharing or part time and so on. Is it 1,200 posts or 1,200 new staff, some of whom may be job-sharing?

I will check but my understanding is that it is whole-time equivalents. I might ask the officials to check.

Could I get confirmation of that before I finish? Of the 1,200, the Minister listed the various NCHDs, consultants, nurses, midwives and other health and social care professionals. They come to 780 so that is less than two thirds of that figure. Would the Minister accept that of the 1,200, less than two thirds are what one might call healthcare professionals?

No, I would not. There are healthcare assistants, who I believe are healthcare professionals, and hospital porters, who I believe are healthcare professionals. There are other patient-supporting roles that I would say are healthcare workers. We will get the Deputy a full breakdown of the full 1,200.

And whether they are full-time posts or persons who are job sharing, etc.

It is whole-time equivalents.

That is pretty much the figure I got after a lot of digging. Sometimes it takes time to get these answers. The Minister said that the overall staffing in Ennis, Nenagh and St. John's had increased by 22%. Again, does this 22% consist of whole-time equivalents or new people? If the Minister does not have the figure, I appreciate that but if I could get it by the end of the week, it would be great.

To the best of my knowledge, the figures we use generally are whole-time equivalents but I will-----

The Minister will verify that figure. I appreciate that. Would it be possible to get a breakdown per hospital? Obviously, we have Ennis, Nenagh and St. John's hospitals, so it would be good to know whether there is a balance across the three or whether one hospital is getting the lion's share of those additional staff.

We have that here. I will ask the officials to pull it out for me. It is in the briefing note.

That would be useful to have. I thank the Minister for the approach. I brought forward a motion with my colleagues in the Independent Group. The motion did not call for the emergency department to be reopened immediately, given the constraints identified by the Minister. Many accept that an emergency department can only be safely opened in a model 3 hospital where there is an intensive care unit. I know that is no longer how it is described but it is effectively an intensive care unit. The motion called for 24-7 opening of the medical assessment unit and the local injuries unit. I thank the Minister for accepting that and not resisting it and, more importantly, for moving towards that. It is an important step towards providing more emergency care in the area. It is only a step, though.

If it is useful, we are going to 24-7 with regard to the medical assessment units. I asked the question as well about the injury units. Indeed I asked the team in Ennis if it thought it should move to 24-7. It said "No" based on the volume of patients coming in at night but I might ask Dr. Henry to speak to that.

If Dr. Henry could be brief, I would appreciate it.

Dr. Colm Henry

What we found from the analysis of when corresponding injuries come into local injury units was that over 80% come in within the opening hours of local injury units, of which there are 13 across the country. The practice for these walk-in, largely ambulatory centres is that after those hours, the nature of the injury can defer to the following morning. The more they are embedded and rooted in our healthcare system, the more patients and GPs are getting used to that model of care. There is no basis in resource needs for manning local injury units 24 hours.

At this time of the year in particular, people come in with sports injuries that occur. Training is typically in the evening. It is a shame that people with sports injuries have to present at UHL. Stitching or a precautionary X-ray is often what is required, rather than something that requires treatment in an emergency department in a model 3 hospital.

Dr. Colm Henry

That is true. It would be a shame but if we look at the profile of patients coming to the emergency department at UHL, we can see that it is different from other model 4 hospitals. A total of 90% are in those first three categories of Manchester triage that are very urgent. Category 1, resuscitation, is about 1% of patients; category 2, which means the patient is very urgent and must be seen within a certain time interval, accounts for 22%; and category 3 patients have to be seen within an hour or two. The existing profile at UHL emergency department is that of a very high category of acuity coming into hospital, whereas if we look at the local injury units and medical assessment units, it is the other end of the scale.

That is the point I am making. People who would otherwise present at a local injuries unit with an injury from sport practice, etc., have to go to UHL. When I asked the chief clinical officer of UHL whether there was a case to be made, not perhaps for 24-hour care but for extending it to 10 p.m. rather than 8 p.m., he accepted that there was a case. I urge the HSE to move in that direction. We do not want people presenting at an emergency department that is already under pressure if their injury is such that they could be safely treated elsewhere.

Digitisation is not why the Minister came here but it was part of the motion we brought forward. It would be particularly helpful in the mid-west because we could move people more easily from UHL to Ennis, Nenagh or St. John's or vice versa if we had this digitisation of records, etc., rather than a paper-based system. Is this moving at all?

Yes it is. I could not agree more with the Deputy's assessment. I agree entirely that it is one of the big enablers. It was called for in the Sláintecare report. Only this week, I brought the new e-health strategy to Government and it has been agreed. This year, we are starting with a patient app, which is being rolled out for testing to several hundred maternity patients in the south east. We will enter the tender process shortly for a shared care record. That is the bit most of us think about when we talk about e-health - the idea that we can all pull up our X-rays, MRIs or medication on our phone and when we are in hospital, the doctor or nurse will be able to pull it up. We have a shortlist and are going to tender. The Department believes that if we can award the contract early next year, it can be in place by the end of next year.

Will it be in place nationwide?

Yes, nationwide. The third part, which is the electronic health record, will take much longer and we are doing it on a regional basis. This is where the record is integrated into the hospital and the GP so when someone comes into an emergency department, they pull up who the patient is and schedule him or her to go and see Dr. Murphy, who then schedules the patient for his or her scans, all through an electronic system.

When is that likely to be delivered?

That will take time. The first place it will be delivered is the national children's hospital. That will be our first electronic health record fully digitised hospital. Then we will do it on a regional basis.

I would like to move on because there is no definitive answer as to when it will be delivered. Going back to the politics of the situation, people might be cynical that the HIQA review was called for in the run into elections and maybe the general election will come and go before the review is delivered and actioned, if it is ever actioned. There have been a lot of reviews in the Department of Health over the years and they probably would not all fit in the building. There must be a very big vault somewhere for them all. When are they going to report on this?

We are going to finalise the terms of reference once we have-----

They are not finalised yet?

We are going to finalise them once we have the report from Mr. Justice Frank Clarke. As you will appreciate-----

Was that not due on 20 May?

It is due in the next few weeks. As you will appreciate, it is a very thorough-----

The date I was given was 20 May. Has it been extended again?

We can check the dates but I am expecting it in the next few weeks. I am sure the Deputy will agree that in setting the terms of reference for what is a very important report, we should be cognisant of whatever comes out of the report by Mr. Justice Frank Clarke. We are going to set those terms and then we will talk to HIQA about timing. On the political point, I understand why the Deputy would make that point. I might well make the point myself if I was sitting where he is. I can state clearly that the reason that I have asked HIQA to do this is because of what has happened in the hospital in the first fourth months of this year. If we go back to last year, when we looked at UHL, the waiting lists were falling rapidly and the number of patients on trolleys was falling. The additional capacity reforms were working.

Falling off the trolleys as the numbers were falling?

The number of patients on trolleys was falling. This year, what we are seeing is a very significant reduction in patients on trolleys all over the country. In total contrast, UHL, completely on its own, has had a 40% increase. It is in response to this year's increase that I have asked HIQA to do this review.

There was one brief question I had-----

No. What we need is the indulgence of the Minister, Deputy Donnelly, to stay an extra half hour because if not, we are going to have to start cutting down the time to around five or six minutes each. That way every speaker gets in. Would the Minister indulge us with an extra half hour?

I cannot do an extra half hour but maybe we can do an extra 15 minutes.

We need to cut the time down to around seven or eight minutes for each member, if the members are happy. Deputy Crowe is substituting for Deputy Devlin.

I thank the Minister for his attendance. The HIQA review is a significant announcement. It paves a positive pathway in terms of what has overall been a very negative outcome for a region. At the end of my contribution, I would like to hear from the Chairman or the committee clerk where the mid-west hospital action group are because it is its petition that has convened us here today. I think it would be essential that it would be here today and if it was not available, perhaps this should have been deferred to a time when it was.

The action group has been in here before and its members are online. The intention is that once there is a member of the committee there, negotiations with them will take place afterwards, once we hear the evidence of the Minister, Deputy Donnelly, and the HSE.

By extension of Deputy McNamara's point about the politics of all of this, the 2009 decision was the worst political decision that the mid-west region has probably ever faced. There were votes that should have been voted down and there were decisions based on clinical advice that I do not accept and I do not think anyone fully accepts. There was also the lack of capacity building. This centre of excellence that was touted by the then Minister, Mary Harney, at the time, never materialised due to lack of interest and lack of investment. There were a lot of people who could have stepped up to this over the past decade, including a Minister of State I heard speaking earlier, Deputy Shortall, who was Minister of State in the Department of Health during that period.

On a point of order-----

I will ask Deputy Crowe now-----

I will address the question. The biblical term, the road to Damascus, has many turns, and thankfully some of those turns have gone in a U shape lately.

Going back to the hospital, what we really need is this HIQA review. I understand the terms of reference will be based on when Mr. Justice Clarke reports back to Deputy Donnelly. I suspect his report may very well recommend that there could be an additional accident and emergency department model 3 in the region. That could transpire and that may short-circuit what HIQA has to do. The timeline of that is absolutely essential and I acknowledge the Minister cannot tell us exactly when it is to commence. We were expecting that report to be out in the last week and it has not come out. When will this group report back to the Minister? It is essential for all of us here, belonging to parties or not, that this be in manifestos and in the next programme for Government to deliver on.

I thank the Deputy. Before we can say when the report will come back, we need to have the terms of reference. The terms of reference will determine the extent of the work that has to be done. I want to be sure that we incorporate what there is to be learned from retired Mr. Justice Frank Clarke's report. The process is that the report comes into the chief executive and I will have view of the report. When I have read the report, I will make sure that the terms of reference incorporate whatever needs to be incorporated. At that point, we will be able to give a timeline. Even if the report comes back and says there needs to be a new model 3 hospital and it needs to have an ED, and even if the next Government says we are committed to building that, it will take years to get from here to there. What I care about the most is the people who are on trolleys in UHL right now while we sit here. It is not acceptable. The overcrowding there must be dealt with. Yes, we will have the review and it will be up to this Government or the next Government to decide what to do with that review. The review may come back and say there is no case for a second ED. We do not know. We must stay focused on the reforms and the capacity that we are putting in place now to make sure that the number of patients on trolleys stops going up - it has started to come down in the past few weeks - and that it continues to fall. That is absolutely key. We need to get the 70 beds opened. We have got access to them and they are going to make an immediate difference. We need the 16 beds on-site and the 96-bed block open. We need the GP on the door and the MAUs moving to 24-7. We need a strong patient flow team and we need to continue with the progress that has been made in terms of senior decision-makers being on-site. We need to continue with the progress that Sandra Broderick, the clinicians and others are making in terms of driving down delayed transfer of care and increasing weekend discharge, which they are. What is going to solve this problem in the shorter term is capacity and reform, while we do the HIQA review.

That is very welcome. Could I just say-----

Deputy Shortall wants to come back on something that Deputy Crowe has said.

It is my time.

I am aware it is Deputy Crowe's time but he should not have made the accusation.

On a point of order, could Deputy Crowe please withdraw that attempted slur? I was a Minister of State with the responsibility for primary care for an 18-month period. I had no responsibility in relation to hospitals. I would appreciate it if Deputy Crowe would withdraw that-----

I will not withdraw that.

There is one issue here. We have always asked people to leave party politics outside the door. This committee-----

Okay I will leave party politics-----

Deputy Crowe has made an accusation against Deputy Shortall and she has corrected it-----

I will withdraw it if it allows things to proceed. It is essential that the capacity building continues beyond UHL. Of course, there have been some really tragic outcomes for patients there but recently when I met Sandra Broderick and the Minister on the capacity building in Ennis and Nenagh, the medical assessment units being key to that was mentioned.

Something that came to my attention this week was rheumatology. There is a clinic in Ennis that sees an awful lot of people. There was a time when the waiting list was 18 months or so, now it is a short few weeks. A medical secretary there has retired and stepped down from their post but the recruitment embargo has not allowed the replacement of that medical secretary. As patient flow cannot be allowed for and the appointments do not happen without a medical secretary, the Minister's officials might specifically look at that, as it is one of those blockages in the system. Finally, if I could say to the Minister - I have repeatedly made this point to him - we are convened here in Dublin where there is a population of 1 million people who all have access to eight emergency departments. We have half a million people in the mid-west with access to one accident and emergency department. It is a population scenario and it is a population that is growing. Would the Minister comment on the medical secretary and the population growing and how he expects that to manifest itself in health terms?

In terms of any individual roles, which cannot currently be replaced by the embargo, what I would say is that I am aware of that.

I speak to front-line clinicians on a regular basis who are saying it is making it harder, not every where but in some places, to run their services and I fully appreciate that. We are working to unwind the embargo. I never wanted to put it in place. It is only there because the HSE was funded for a record 6,000 staff last year and hired a record 8,000 staff. In spite of the embargo, there are thousands more staff working in the HSE now than there were this time last year.

On the second point, the medical secretary-----

The growing population.

I think part of the rationale for the HIQA review is the fact that the mid-west region has grown. As colleagues will be aware, it is by a long way the smallest region when we look at the HSE regions. It is about half the size of the next smallest region. On the points Deputy Shortall was making that there are not the model three hospitals, we are looking at that. Part of the historic reason for that is the mid-west region has about 8% of the population. The next smallest region has 14%. It is about a third of the size of the largest region. As the Deputy rightly says, the mid-west region is growing. I look forward to seeing what HIQA comes back with in terms of an analysis of that growing population and, indeed, ageing population. As we know, over 65s, 75s and 85s have much higher demand for both community and acute care. It is not just the number of people. To a large extent, it is the number of older people as well.

Deputy Buckley wants to make a quick point and then we will have Deputy Lowry.

I thank the Chair. I will be very brief because I am conscious of time. I am a member of this committee. We put forward a lot of amendments to strengthen this committee. I am fair. I am not taking any of the Minister's time and am giving up my time. I do not want anybody coming in here scoring political points. They bring the tone of this committee down. This a lastchance.com committee, so please be respectful to everybody in this committee. I thank the Chair.

I am not sure Senator Gavan got the memo. I think he might have missed that bit. I think it might have to be put in Senator Gavan's pigeon hole.

I think before Deputy Crowe leaves we should remind him that he was always an active member of Fianna Fáil. If my memory is right, he was actually an apprentice to a senior Fianna Fáil Minister in Limerick.

Correct. I had no vote.

He would have left the party-----

Members are wasting their own time. There are other members wishing to come in before the Minister goes. Is Deputy Lowry in or are we passing him by?

The Deputy better start because his seven minutes is starting.

I want to make one general point. The situation in UHL in Limerick is appalling. At times, it is out of control. The real problem we have there is that there is a lack of confidence among the public in entering the hospital. To balance it and to be fair, the response I get from people is that when they actually enter the system and they are treated, they are looked after exceptionally well and the outcomes are good. That needs to be said.

In relation to the measures that have been taken, the Minister has said the senior decision-makers are rostered on site, both in the emergency department and throughout the hospital after hours and at weekends. What progress has been made in relation to this? This is a big issue. We have a new consultant contract. How many consultants have signed up to this in Limerick? How does that compare with other hospitals around the country?

In relation to the medical assessment unit in Nenagh, I was told that would be open in mid-May. That has not happened. I am told there is now a dispute between SIPTU and the HSE. Could the Minister fill me in with regard to what is happening with that? When can we expect to see that medical assessment unit open 24-7 in Nenagh?

The daycare surgery in Nenagh is constantly issuing cancellations. That is causing huge hardship, concern and anxiety, in particular for older people who are waiting for surgical intervention. If that surgical intervention is delayed, that obviously results in the person deteriorating and they could end up in Limerick as an acute patient.

Sorry to interrupt the Deputy, could I ask which-----

The Nenagh daycare surgery.

We have had a situation in St. Conlon's in Nenagh. A new unit was built to accommodate the 23 patients out of St. Conlon's. We recently have had a lot of controversy and it has become very contentious and divisive because of the HSE's decision to take that unit over as a step-down facility for UHL. What is the rationale behind that? The patients and staff of St. Conlon's are extremely annoyed. The public of Nenagh are agitated in relation to it. What is the logic and the rationale?

We were also told last Saturday at a public demonstration by Deputy Kelly, who is a local TD in the area, that decision would be overturned. Can the Minister tell me what progress Deputy Kelly and others have made in overturning that decision? I would like to see it overturned also. I would support that effort but I would like to know what is the rationale behind it? What is the possibility of transferring part of the facility? I put forward a compromise proposal that the top floor would be used for St. Conlon's and the bottom floor would be used as a step-down for Limerick.

Could I also ask about the Dean Maxwell community nursing unit? What progress has been made? I am happy with the progress that has been made in relation to the purchase of Mount Carmel. I am liaising between the HSE-----

Sorry, Deputy Lowry, can we leave the Dean Maxwell unit until later? We are talking about UHL now and we want to get as many members in as possible.

Okay. Could the Minister answer one of those?

I thank the Deputy for the questions. In terms of senior decision-makers on site, it was my experience when I started visiting UHL that there were not senior decision-makers rostered on site out of hours and at the weekends. When I spoke to the nurses in the emergency department and the non-consultant hospital doctors, NCHDs, they said their single biggest concern was being left from Friday evening to Monday morning without consultants rostered on site. Yes, there might have been a consultant rostered on call, but as we saw from the Aoife Johnston inquiry, for example, when that consultant was phoned, he did not come in. It was one of the issues I raised directly with the hospital clinical and administrative management. It is something we hard-wired into the new consultant contract. I am happy to say there is now rostering of consultants in the evenings and at the weekends. I want to acknowledge that.

We have increased the number of emergency department consultants from ten to 15. That helps as well. Any of those new consultants are on the new public-only contract. Unfortunately, UHL has the lowest uptake of the model four hospitals, or the big hospitals, for the new consultant contract. There is a private hospital being built in Limerick. I think that will probably help. It will mean consultants can do their public work in UHL and then they would be able to go off site to a private hospital. I think that will help, but I would very much like to see a higher uptake in UHL of the consultant contract. I think that would be in the interest of patients.

In relation to the Nenagh MAU, I will get the Deputy a note as to when that goes 24-7. I will take a look at the day cases in Nenagh as well and will revert to the Deputy. We will get a detailed note, speciality by speciality, on that.

Finally, with regard to St. Conlon's, the decision was made, and I am not going to just pass the buck here to the HSE. I was consulted on that decision and I am part of making that decision. That decision was made because we have elderly patients, frail patients and deteriorating patients on trolleys in UHL. In the rest of the country, the number of patients on trolleys is going down. In UHL, it has gone up 40% this year. It is a very serious situation and we need to do whatever we can to alleviate the pressure on those patients and on those healthcare workers.

As a short-term measure, we are using two community nursing units. We are using a 20-bed unit in Clare and we are a using the 50-bed unit in St. Conlon's. It is currently empty, and as the community are aware there were 23 residents due to move into the new facility. I know they are looking forward to it and that this is frustrating for them and for their families. I know they were involved, for example, in some of the new design in the new CNU and they are very disappointed. However, we have to do the right thing where patient safety risk is the highest.

For the people of Tipperary and Nenagh who end up in the emergency department at UHL, we want to make sure we have done everything we can to minimise the number of patients on trolleys and to reduce the amount of time people spend on trolleys.

I call on Senator Timmy Dooley.

I thank the Chair.

I am sorry. Deputy Lowry asked if the decision was going to be overturned. I can categorically say that it will not be overturned. This is a patient safety issue. I know Deputy Kelly has been talking to various people but this is a decision that has been made. It is not up for review. We have to do it to keep people, including people from Tipperary and Nenagh, safe should they to go the emergency department and have to be admitted to the hospital.

I thank the Minister for his forthright and frank presentation today and for his level of engagement with politicians on all sides of the House. He makes himself open and accessible and he listens. We might not always agree with his response but he certainly listens and takes matters on board. I agree with others who characterised the situation at the hospital as being extremely difficult for politicians in the region to accept. This situation has progressed for far too long and it undermines people's confidence in the hospital. As politicians, it is also our job not to overdramatise that to the extent that people will not attend. There is a balance to be struck between being forthright in trying to get the problem solved and not undermining confidence in the hospital. The Minister has set out a pathway for increased activity with additional resources and has identified the timeline for building. We will see some improvement on that.

I very much welcome the fact that the Minister has listened to us and to others on a review of the proposal for an additional model 3 hospital with an emergency department. I am sure I can speak for Deputy Lowry, Deputy Cathal Crowe and others when I say that we are all being approached about securing that for our own respective hospitals, whether St. John's, Nenagh or Ennis. Will the Minister give us some insight into the approach that will be taken and the factors that will inform the decision on the location?

There is clearly a cultural issue at UHL. The Minister has identified some of this as regards the uptake of the contract. It is a matter of public record that I have raised issues about leadership in the hospital. I refer not to one individual but to an issue across the senior management team and the leadership of the hospital. That needs to be looked at.

I beg the Deputy's pardon but will he say that again? I was just taking a note on his previous question.

The question was on the cultural issue in the hospital and not reaching the targets we would have expected based on the resources that have been put in. My concern is that there needs to be a review of the overall leadership of the hospital. Culture does not change overnight nor does it change with new leadership. I ask the Minister to consider a multi-annual funding programme to bring about change or reform at the hospital. That is something he might consider. I will let the Minister respond to those questions and then come back in.

I thank the Senator very much. The HIQA reforms will be informed entirely by HIQA looking at the data. It will look at the population and population densities. I imagine it will do a lot of interviews with front-line clinicians. I have no doubt it will engage with the HSE. It will conduct an independent expert review. I very deliberately asked HIQA to do this rather than any other body. I did not ask my Department or the HSE to do it because some people might try to suggest that there was political interference in the decision. HIQA is an independent regulator and I very deliberately asked it to do this. It is not that I do not believe the HSE would have done an excellent job because it would have. It is about preventing people from suggesting that the process is being influenced. I do not believe it would be but------

Is the Minister suggesting that there will not be an opportunity for the body politic or certain interest groups within Ennis, Nenagh or St. John's to pitch what they would like to see come from the review? Does the Minister believe HIQA will engage with politicians or will it remain entirely independent?

You could have both. HIQA is entirely independent. It is the independent regulator. Will it discuss these matters with people like the Senator? He and I have talked about Clare and the mid-west every week for several years. He has been making the case for more investment in UHL and the region, including in his own county, for years. I imagine that HIQA will listen to elected representatives and that it will take submissions but it will not be swayed by marches and those kinds of things. That is just not how it operates. It will look at the data. I am not going to tell HIQA how to do this but, with a review like this, it would be normal to engage with elected representatives and to listen to civil society. That is important with regard to submissions. However, HIQA just does not work on the basis of marches and things like that. It will work on the evidence.

As to whether there is a cultural issue at UHL, the short answer is "Yes". I am not going to get into it, if the Senator does not mind. The Frank Clarke report may point to some of it. Are there cultural issues in UHL that have led to some of the poorer outcomes? Yes. To my mind, there are absolutely are. Do some of these remain to this day? They absolutely do. The new regional executive officer, Sandra Broderick, is doing an excellent job.

I absolutely concur with that.

She is in there and she is working with the clinical body to try to change things. I will give the Senator one very quick observation. I have been in all of the emergency departments around the country, both those that are working well and those that are not. From what I hear from our clinicians, the single biggest difference between those that are doing well and those that are not is that, where they are doing well, the entire hospital staff see the patient in the emergency department as their patient. In the hospitals that struggle, patients in the emergency department are seen by those in the rest of the hospital as that department's problem to deal with. The hospital in Tullamore has had a very significant turnaround over the last three years. When I speak to the emergency department consultants and other consultants there, they say that, three years ago, if Mrs. Murphy needed to see a cardiologist, she would have been put on a trolley and waited there and then might have got a bed and got to see a cardiologist a few days later but that, today, the cardiologist comes into the emergency department and may say that Mrs. Murphy does not need to be admitted and that she can be seen in that cardiologist's outpatient clinic on Tuesday or whatever it may be. The people working in the emergency department in UHL three years ago said to me that they did not feel the entire hospital was working to either get Mrs. Murphy sent home with an appropriate care package or admitted to a bed as quickly as possible. That is one of the big changes.

I am encouraged by the latest HIQA report. HIQA reports on UHL have been quite rightly very hard-hitting for a very long time but the latest report noted that some of the reforms we have been looking for are now beginning to happen. It also says there is a long way to go for the reforms to have full effect but I called for the clinical community and leadership to step up and we are certainly beginning to see that happen now.

Funding of the reforms-----

I am sorry but the time is up.

I asked a question and just want a response. It was on the funding of a reform programme to address that cultural shift or change. Is that something the Minister would consider?

Considering the scale of the amount of money we are putting into UHL, that would be a very modest investment. There would be no problem with that.

We are getting close to time so we will have to cut contributions down to five minutes. Senator Craughwell is a member of the committee so we will let him in first, followed by Deputies Wynne, Deputy Paul Murphy and Senator Conway. I apologise that Senator Craughwell will only have five minutes.

I thank the Chairman.

I ask him to keep it bang-on the five minutes, unlike usual.

I will keep it tight. I thank the Minister for being here. Many of my colleagues have interest in what is going on in the west. I will leave that to them. I am more concerned with accident and emergency departments more generally and the lack of co-ordination.

I am sorry; we are here to deal with UHL. I have stopped others from going outside that topic.

It directly impacts UHL.

Unless the Senator is addressing UHL, I am going to stop him.

I will stick with UHL then. The system in the accident and emergency department is such that you go in, you are triaged and, once you are triaged, you are in the system. However, you can lie on a bed for hours without somebody seeing you.

Why is there not a process manager in the accident and emergency department in UL who can ensure that a person is seen, even if there is nothing to say other than we are waiting for a blood test or something? Why is there not that sort of management system in place? The one in Limerick is a total disaster and despite the amount of money thrown at it, it does not seem to get any better. That really concerns me.

I will make a quick point and then I will ask Dr. McNamara to come in specifically on that operational aspect of the emergency department. I have met the emergency department team in UHL many times. I have been blown away by their dedication to their patients and the fact that they are working at it. They believe things can get better with this additional capacity of more doctors, more nurses and more beds. They are doing everything they can.

Are there improvements to be made? Yes. Some of those improvements are now happening. We have an expert group down there doing its very best and I might ask Dr. McNamara to come in on the specific operational point the Deputy raised.

Dr. Rosa McNamara

I thank the Senator. When people present they are triaged and that determines the order in which they are seen. What cannot be seen are the parallel streams of activity that are occurring in a typical emergency department. Some people are in the resuscitation room. They are the most critically ill and are receiving immediate life-saving, limb-saving or sight-saving interventions. There is another stream that may have minor injuries or ailments that are typically seen in another part of the department and go through much more quickly.

The group the Senator s describing is the group of people who may have a lower triage category and who may have some care initiated. They might have blood tests or ECGs ordered. They certainly receive nursing attention and care. It is not that nothing is happening. Things are happening in parallel while waiting. However, the Senator is right. Sometimes there can be long waits if the demand exceeds the ability of the department to deliver it.

There is no question about the dedication of staff in any of these accident and emergency departments. What is really frustrating is dedicated staff who are being run to their nerve endings, always on the run and always trying to catch up on something or other. Clearly, the closure of Ennis was the first major strike, as far as I remember, to impact Limerick when I was living down there and then the other district hospitals have closed. Looking back, are we paying a price now for the disinvestment in these hospitals, particularly in the west?

I thank the Senator. I have seen the reports and the clinical advice that said the emergency departments at the time were unsafe. HIQA stated that these were simply not safe to run. That will have been in part due to the scale of the hospitals behind them and the need for multidisciplinary care. Where I believe the mistake was made was not investing the kind of capacity that we are investing and have been investing right through the lifetime of this Government. The changes were made and an enormous additional burden was put on UHL. My belief, rightly or wrongly, is before those changes were made - or maybe at the same time because it was a pressing patient safety issue that had to be responded to - there should have been a very considerable investment in UHL.

In the lifetime of this Government, we will have either added or be halfway through constructing about an additional 300 beds for UHL. That is the size of a model 3 hospital. I believe that should have happened at the same time, ideally before but at a minimum at the same time, as the reconfiguration happened. We are now doing that and will have added a level of capacity that has never been added in the lifetime of this Government.

Dr. Colm Henry

Very briefly and in answer to the Senator's earlier question, there is a system in place now in UL and other emergency departments where patients are tracked for their deterioration. If they come in apparently stable, there is a system called the Irish national early warning system, INEWS, which trackers their clinical condition in a structured way with nursing corresponding to the need to do that. It tracks deterioration, whether expected or unexpected, and that can lead to a change in the triage category that Dr. McNamara described.

It is not the case, no matter how busy the department is, that patients are not tracked for deterioration.

I am not going to take any more time. There are people here who live in the area so I will leave them off.

I have a number of things I want to refer to and questions as well, so I will be as quick as I can. I also hope to get the breakdown of the staffing levels or the staffing that has been introduced in Ennis. I note the Minister pointed to 22% and mentioned to Deputy McNamara that it would be sourced. I would like to get hold of that data myself.

In respect of the injury units, in Ennis, solely through a response to a parliamentary question I can see that attendance at Ennis injury unit has increased since 2019 by 32%, which is significant and positive. It was in respect of extending the hours of the medical assessment units, MAUs, and the local injury units, LIUs. The Minister has committed to the 24-7 MAUs and he might touch on where we are on that because it is a phased thing where it is being extended to 10 p.m., and then to midnight and then extending it even further to 24-7. I had hoped that would be extended to LIUs as well, in light of the presentations to the injury unit and Ennis and how they have been increasing year on year.

To touch on the comments the Minister made on the expert review or inquest by Mr. Justice Clarke, I appreciate that the Minister hopes to have that review to hand and to have looked at it before working on the terms of reference. Some have said that it was supposed to be with the Minister by 20 May. I remember hearing about the end of May. I raised it on the Order of Business this week with the Taoiseach in the hope of getting statements on the floor of the Chamber about the grossly overcrowded numbers seen on a daily basis in UHL, as well as about the embargo. He said he wanted to wait until the review from Mr. Justice Clarke has been published. That is going to delay a number of processes for us.

On the terms of reference, are we even looking at having a draft in place until such time as the review has been completed? The Minister had mentioned a number of weeks. Does he have a definitive timeline as to when he hopes to have that review published? In respect of the clinical advice that had been received or given thus, I think it was Dr. Colm Henry who provided that and he provided that note to me and maybe others who had raised this issue with the Minister. Specifically, I note it was received in December 2023 and it stated it would not be safe to reopen Ennis. I should point out that I do not believe any campaign group or Deputy has called for that. I definitely have not been calling for an emergency department to be opened in Ennis as it is now. It was an upgrade that was being called for.

The information relied on the 2009 HIQA report into Ennis but it failed to take into consideration the 2022 HIQA report that identified the absence of a model 3 hospital in the mid-west as a major contributory factor to the overcrowding. In response to that report, the CEO of University Limerick Hospitals Group committed to exploring the option of a model 3 hospital for the region. Was that work done? Where are we with that? I think that was critical and maybe that should have been actioned at that point.

While I am conscious of my time, in respect of the information that came out yesterday, 239 patients were reported to have died on trolleys in UHL over the past five years. That figure is 45 higher than the next hospital, University Hospital Galway, with 195. The Minister has mentioned capacity and reform and this is something I have heard in recent months, that is, that UHL is an outlier but also around reforms not being implemented thus far. In respect of the really sad case of Aoife Johnston, it was mentioned that there was rostering issues that the Minister had highlighted with the hospital that were not implemented on that specific weekend after they had been advised to do so.

There is a clear issue with management. I respect that the Minister has brought in a task force but for those who have been impacted in particular, when will there be accountability for clear management issues and leadership issues within UHL in recent years? I think my time is up.

I think my time is up as well, Deputy.

I will give a short answer and revert to the Deputy with a note on some of them.

Dr. Henry can give a view on the medical assessment units and when they will move to 24-7. There has been a 23% increase in staff numbers in Ennis. When I asked staff in Ennis whether we should consider having a 24-7 local injury unit there, they said absolutely not because there would not be enough people coming through and emergency care doctors and nurses would essentially be de-skilling by working nights with very little to do. The staff in Ennis said we would be far better off putting the money into additional capacity in Ennis, for example, by bringing the MAU to 24-7 because there is a reason for doing so.

With regard to the timing of the review, I want to wait until I see Mr. Justice Clarke's report. We do not have a date for publication and for all we know, it will be challenged. Regardless of any challenge, I will read it and if there are things in it that we need in the terms of reference for the HIQA assessment regarding a second emergency department, I want to put them in place. When we have those terms of reference agreed, we will be able to sit down with HIQA and agree the timeline for the report. Dr. Henry can speak to the advice.

Dr. Colm Henry

On the medical assessment units, there are three accumulatively that are quite busy, accounting for 15,000 visits in 2023, which was up by 18% from the previous year. Ennis MAU is open seven days per week and a commitment has been announced to expand it to 24-7. I spoke to the clinical executive leadership of the group and it plans to do this incrementally. There are staffing implications to address in order to make sure the MAU is fully staffed and resourced. I referred to the categorisation of patients according to triage. University Hospital Limerick's ED has 90% of cases in the highest three categories. The medical assessment units treat patients at the other end of the categories. Patients in those categories are much less likely to present late at night or after midnight. Under the incremental approach, the MAU will open until midnight later this year. This will address the patients at greatest risk who otherwise should have gone to the MAUs and end up in the emergency departments. This is because of the considerable fall in the number of such patients in those categories presenting overnight.

I appreciate that I have gone over my time. I ask the Minister to respond to my question on the HIQA reports of 2009 and 2022.

The Minister has indicated he needs to leave. If it is okay with Deputy Murphy and Senator Conway, I ask them to put their questions now and the Minister can respond in writing.

It is not the Minister's fault.

If we could get an oral answer, that would be appreciated.

If the two members put their questions, I will stay and answer them together.

The first question is about the 239 patients who have died on trolleys and chairs since 2019, which means about one person is dying without a bed every week. Dr. McNamara stated earlier that, unfortunately, deaths in emergency departments are not unusual. Is it not unusual to die without having a bed or is this what we are seeing across the country?

To pursue the point on why the review is taking place now, the Minister argued that it is a response to the performance in the first four months of this year. The HIQA inspection report of March 2022 noted that UHL was the only model 4 hospital with an emergency department and stated that this both "contributed to and significantly impacted on the effective workings of the hospital's emergency department". Why did that not trigger such a review?

The Minister indicated that he does not believe the reconfiguration was done properly. It seems the reconfiguration was a disaster. We made that argument at the time and have been very consistent in that regard, having campaigned on the issue while Fianna Fáil was putting through the reconfiguration and Deputy Willie O'Dea was pretending it was not happening.

Let us say the review starts in three months and concludes six months after that. If it were to recommend another model 3 hospital in the region with an emergency department, etc., roughly how long would it take to get from that point to the delivery of an emergency department?

I know the Minister has to leave but would it be possible for the other witnesses to stay?

If the Minister could stay for another 15 minutes-----

I am sorry, Senator, but I cannot do so. I was meant to be gone by 3 p.m. In fairness to the other witnesses, a Chathaoirligh, it would not be appropriate for me to just head off and leave them.

In that case, I ask Senator Conway to proceed. The Minister can respond to the Senator and Deputy Murphy together.

I do not want to be difficult but I want to ask a couple of extremely important questions. I note that some of the political commentary about this review is very serious and the expectations that have been created are extremely worrying and serious. The Minister needs to deal with that.

In March 2023, a special team was sent down to UHL. It made recommendations which, we were told, would significantly improve the situation. On 24 March last, in response to questioning from me at the Joint Committee on Health, Dr. Henry stated that the medical advice was even more pertinent now that upgrading the other hospitals would be inappropriate. On 4 April, the Minister did a doorstep in Limerick where he announced further actions that were to be taken to improve the situation in UHL. On 2 May, in response to Deputy Cullinane in the Dáil, the Minister stated that the six regional executive officers had been asked to look at capacity. One week later, he announced a HIQA review. What I want to know is whether the Minister discussed this with Dr. Henry and others in the HSE and, if so, whether they agreed with the request that HIQA do a review.

With the greatest of respect to Mr. Justice Clarke, who is a marvellous person, he is not a medical person. Why does the Minister feel the need to wait for his report on a very specific case before putting the terms of reference together? It is a delaying tactic. If HIQA is carrying out a review, I could write the terms of reference myself. I do not understand why the Minister is waiting for Mr. Justice Clarke's report to deal with that.

When will this report be on the Minister's desk? We need a date, not a week or month, but a specific date on which this report will be on his desk. It is not good enough to tell people in the mid-west that, if not this Government, the next Government will make a decision on this. It has to be this Government. I have defended in the media for a long time the case for not opening a 24-hour ED in Ennis hospital or Nenagh hospital because of safety issues. I hope the Minister will reply to those questions now.

In response to Deputy Murphy, those 239 patients should have had a bed. They should not have been on a chair or trolley in an ED. There may of course be people who are in active treatment in an ED, be it in resuscitation or whatever, who die. As Dr. McNamara said, we do not have a breakdown of the different categories of those. Inevitably, there will be people who die in active treatment or under observation in an ED, for example, in resuscitation. Dr. McNamara may speak to that. Those who were being admitted to a hospital and may have spent some time on a trolley before passing away should have been in a bed or at home with palliative care or whatever care was appropriate. I have no doubt there are some within that number - we do not know how many - who should not have been in that situation. That applies not just to UHL but everywhere. It is one of the reasons we are prioritising reducing trolley numbers.

In terms of the review timing, I will have the report from Mr. Justice Clarke shortly.

We will finalise the terms of reference and then agree a timeline with HIQA, which is doing the work, so we need to make sure it can commit to whatever it is.

There is the point of March 2022 and the HIQA inspection not triggering something.

It is something we have looked at. We were in the middle of a significant increase in capacity in the hospital. The increased capacity and reforms worked in a lot of other hospitals. If we had been sitting here this time last year, forgive me if the figure is wrong, but I think there was a reduction of approximately 16% in trolleys and a significant reduction in waiting lists. It was working last year, and something went badly wrong this year, which is why I responded with a review. The Deputy has heard my view on the 2009 reconfiguration. The clinical advice on closing the emergency departments seems to be solid. It came from HIQA and was backed up by the clinicians who said they were not safe. I believe the extra capacity that should have been added at the time was not added. By any fair measure, over the past four years we are adding that capacity. Almost 300 beds have been added to UHL.

I turn to Senator Conway's question on the HIQA review. That was my decision. Of course, I consulted with the Department and the HSE. Everyone is open to this.

Was there any pushback from the HSE on appointing HIQA to do this review, given that the regional executive officers were already carrying out a capacity review?

Not at all. I think everyone accepted that, first, HIQA is made up of independent experts. It is good at these things. Second, this is a live and political issue in the mid-west. Senator Gavan has been shouting in here today. I have no doubt there are people who would have accused either the Department or the HSE of being politicised and not being able to do independent work.

I am trying to get my head around what changed between 2 May and 9 May. On 2 May the Minister told Deputy Cullinane that the regional executive officers were carrying out a capacity review. One week later he announced a HIQA review. I want to know what changed in seven days.

Nothing changed in seven days.

Something must have.

I would not read too much into the timing of a Dáil response. We have asked the six regional executive officers to look at capacity and configuration in their regions, as the Senator would expect us to do.

I would not read anything into those two dates.

It is surely redundant then for Sandra Broderick to do this review if HIQA is carrying out a separate review.

Not at all. HIQA is looking at one question, which is urgent and emergency care in the region, including whether or not there is a case for second emergency department in a model 3 hospital. Sandra Broderick, along with the other REOs, is carrying out a capacity review of her region. That will include how general practice, primary care and radiology are going, and how they are doing in terms of nursing home and rehab beds.

I accept all that, but I still cannot get my head around why the Minister announced it on 9 May 2024 and not 9 May 2023 because the problem has been there for the past number of years, particularly post-Covid. Will the Minister please explain the timing of this HIQA review?

I can. In April or May last year, the number of patients on trolleys in UHL was falling. The number of patients on waiting lists was falling. The staff and the number of beds were growing. There was a lot of encouragement and positivity in the hospital about the fact that the first 96-bed block was starting. Primary care centres were being opened. Croom had just had a hugely successful investment. In and around then we were opening the injury unit in Ennis. Things were moving in the right direction this time last year, and unfortunately despite all of these resources they are rapidly moving in the wrong direction this year.

I will conclude because I know time is up, but it would be worth the Chair's while to read the transcript of Deputy Crowe's local radio interview the day after that announcement was made. An expectation was created that is totally and utterly inappropriate.

I ask Dr. Henry for one clarification. The Minister has already said that this new emergency department proposal will be examined by HIQA, which will give an independent assessment as to whether we should have one and where it will be. The question that will jump from Nenagh and Ennis is whether they are suitable at the moment. What are the clinical reasons this cannot happen in Ennis and Nenagh at the moment?

Dr. Colm Henry

As I stated earlier, an emergency department cannot exist outside of a model 3 hospital. The gap in the ranges of services available - diagnostic, surgical, anaesthetic and ICU - between those three hospitals and a model 3 hospital is considerable. Teams would have to be recruited, and radiology and lab services would have to be resourced to the level people would expect from emergency department outcomes in 2024.

It is not clinically possible.

Dr. Colm Henry

There is a considerable gap between the current level of expertise available in those hospitals and what would be required in a model 3 hospital.

I thank the Minister, Deputy Donnelly, his officials, Ms McNamara and Ms Conroy, and Dr. Henry and Dr. Mc Namara for being with us today. I have no doubt we will see either the Minister or the HSE back here again. We will be in touch with the mid-west hospital action group.

Sitting suspended at 3.26 p.m. and resumed at 3.32 p.m.
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