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Joint Committee on Public Petitions and the Ombudsmen debate -
Thursday, 13 Jun 2024

Amendment of the Child Care Act 1991: Engagement with the Alliance of Birth Mothers Campaigning for Justice

I welcome everyone to our meeting this afternoon. No apologies have been received.

The first item on the agenda is the approval of the minutes of the meetings of 22, 23, 29 and 30 May 2024. The minutes have already been approved in a virtual private meeting but for procedural reasons they must be approved in public. Are the minutes agreed? Agreed. I will now read the note on privilege. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the place in which Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House, in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting.

Petition No. P00035/22 is on amending the Child Care Act 1991 to provide HIQA with the necessary powers to sanction Tusla, Child and Family Agency, when it fails to meet its statutory obligations from the Alliance of Birth Mothers Campaigning for Justice. I will read a few notes on privilege before I invite the main speakers in. Before we start, I will explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. Witnesses are again reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Before we hear from our witnesses, I propose that we publish their opening statements on the committee website. Is that agreed? Agreed. On behalf of the committee, I extend a warm welcome to Ms Anna Kavanagh, convenor and petitioner; Dr. Finbar Markey, secretary; and Ms Michelle Monaghan, lead researcher, Alliance of Birth Mothers Campaigning for Justice. We will give them their names in stars again today - Ms Anna Kavanagh, convenor and petitioner, Dr. Finbar Markey, secretary, and Ms Michelle Monaghan, lead researcher. Ms Kavanagh will read out her opening statement followed by the other two witnesses.

I suggest this joint opening statement should last for around ten minutes. We will then have questions and comments from members and each member will have around ten minutes depending on how many members are here. Members may speak more than once. I now call on Ms Kavanagh to start her opening statement, followed by Dr. Markey and Ms Monaghan. I thank the witnesses.

Ms Anna Kavanagh

I thank the Chair and committee for the invitation to appear before them today on behalf of the Alliance of Birth Mothers Campaigning for Justice. My name is Anna Kavanagh and I am co-founder of and convenor to the alliance. I am joined by our secretary, Dr. Finbar Markey, and our lead researcher, Ms Michelle Monaghan.

We welcome the opportunity the committee is giving us to discuss the difficulties with Tusla experienced by the mothers we represent. The Alliance of Birth Mothers Campaigning for Justice was set up in June 2019 and is currently Ireland’s largest non-Tusla funded, non-State funded advocacy group for mothers in difficultly with Tusla, the Garda and the family court.

We receive no funding and work in a voluntary capacity and the occasional expenses we incur are met entirely out of our own pockets. We currently are going through a shameful period in Irish history where women and children who are being abused by the State are silenced by the in camera rule operating in the family court that denies them their constitutional rights to speak out about what is happening to them. We are their voice today to articulate their grievances and their hope for reforms that will give them the justice they are currently denied. The dysfunction in Tusla that is leading to the failure to protect some of the children that they have taken into State care is hiding in plain sight.

The following are from headlines and by-lines from this year alone. A headline in the Irish Examiner on 28 May stated "Tusla reports doubling of children in State care who may have been targeted for sexual exploitation", while a headline in The Irish Times on 27 May stated "When it comes to the State's most vulnerable children, we don't seem to learn from our failures". That was from an opinion piece that appeared in The Irish Times from Dr. Carol Coulter, director of the Child Law Project. According to the Irish Examiner on 21 May, "it is taking seven to eight years for child sexual abuse cases to get to court because of ongoing problems in sharing data between Gardaí and Tusla". On the front page of the Irish Independent on 21 May, it was stated "Children held in care for twice as long as legal limit". On 9 May, RTÉ reported "Babies in State care placed in private, unregulated settings". On 22 April, the Irish Examiner reported that "Almost 30 children in State care have disappeared this year, with the whereabouts of 22 still unknown". On 13 April, the Limerick Post reported that Tusla is taking two years to investigate sexual abuse. On 25 March, The Irish Times reported that internal Tusla documents revealed cases of children in emergency accommodation contracting scabies and living in rooms with bedbugs. Another opinion piece in The Irish Times on 27 March from Dr. Carol Coulter asked why are we still so badly failing children in care. On 25 March, The Irish Times reported that children in emergency State care were at risk of abuse. On 3 March, the Irish Daily Mail reported that the State spent €70 million on unsuitable housing for children in care and on 1 March, it reported that Tusla spent €14 million placing children with unvetted firms. On 28 February, the Irish Examiner reported a "Garda investigation is underway into allegations Tusla placed vulnerable children into unregulated emergency accommodation" and on 22 January, that newspaper reported that "Unvetted care workers subcontracted by Tusla were given access to vulnerable children at risk of abuse". A headline the Irish Independent on 15 January referring to a HIQA report stated "Baby in foster care not seen by social worker for ten months due to staff pressures, inspectors reveal". Another headline in the Irish Independent on 15 January stated "Judge's 'rage' over boy (15) in care who hadn't had even one day of school since primary". Finally, on 8 January, The Irish Times reported "Tusla delays [may have put] children at risk ..., HIQA finds".

This is just a sample of headlines and together, they paint a grim picture of the dysfunction in the child and family agency, which Dr. Markey will appraise further. We wish to acknowledge the work of those reporters who have been shining a spotlight on Tusla since it began operating just over ten years ago, including Kitty Holland, Debbie McCann and Jack Power to name but a few. There was great expectation that on taking over the role of child welfare and protection from the HSE, Tusla would end the dysfunction in the system stretching back several decades. Alas, this has not materialised and Ms Monaghan will elaborate on this.

The message I wish to deliver here today from the mothers on whose behalf we are speaking is that behind these headlines are heartbroken mothers, battered and bruised by agents of the State who are failing to protect them and their children. The great scandal of our time is the failure to hold Tusla to account for its failure to protect children it has taken into State care from sexual abuse and sexual exploitation. Tusla does not have a centralised database on the number of children in State care that go missing, nor does it have a centralised database on the number of babies a few days old who it takes into State care.

Last year, I interviewed 20 mothers at length about their experience of Tusla and got 20 ladies to do the voice-over to protect their anonymity for a podcast series called "Justice for Birth Mothers". The headlines above refer to children missing from State care and the failure to protect children in State care from sexual abuse. This is what Muriel, not her real name, told me:

My daughter went missing out of the foster care. I got a tip off that she was missing and that she was being sexually abused in that foster home and Tusla was notified and the guards knew about it. I was not notified that my daughter was missing out of the foster home. It was an anonymous call. It was a mother from the school because videos of my daughter had gone around the school on Snapchat. She was found in a very isolated rural area miles and miles away from the foster home and there was no bus link there, so she had to have been brought there in a car. I was told by Tusla she had a boyfriend and she went there to see a boy. But my daughter was [just] 13 years of age at the time. So, someone who can drive with a 13-year-old to me is an adult man with a ...vulnerable child. There was absolutely no investigation done. A male [Tusla] social worker picked her up and drove her back to the foster home.

When I raised this issue in court, the male [Tusla] social worker gave evidence that the judge accepted that she didn't want to talk about it. I was forbidden then by the judge to ask [any] questions.

In summary, Tusla’s failure to protect children it takes into State care is hiding in plain sight, captured by mainstream headlines on an almost daily basis. Behind these headlines are mothers like Muriel and their children silenced by the in camera rule, unable to speak out about the effects of Tusla’s failures on them and their children. There is an unbroken chain of State abuse of mothers and children that did not end with the closure of the last mother and baby home.

The State abuse of mothers and their children is ongoing. We excuse past generations for their failure to speak out at the time because it was generally not fully known what was happening. Future generations will never forgive us if we do not bring an immediate end to the State abuse of mothers and children because we know and appear to be doing very little to halt it. It is beyond my level of competency to tell the members what the solution is. My purpose coming before the committee today is to articulate the cries of the mothers that we represent in the Alliance of Birth Mothers Campaigning for Justice and to appeal to the members' better natures to act immediately to bring about an end to this injustice.

Silence is complicity. To conclude, we welcome any questions the committee may have for us. I will hand over to Dr. Markey.

Dr. Finbar Markey

I thank those in attendance today, both elected representatives and staff. I have worked in the social care field and with adolescents in residential care for over a decade. I hold an honours degree in applied social care and I have a masters degree and a research PhD in organisational culture change in public social and health care in Ireland.

The organisational culture of Tusla is clearly in need of a serious overhaul. The failings that are identified by HIQA's less than satisfactory assessment procedures, coupled with the experiences of mothers in contact with our alliance, point to an organisational culture that evolved from crisis and is pathological in many aspects of its practice. The espoused beliefs and values of the organisation, the ethical aspirations that are reduced to the promising slogans we see in marketing campaigns, in many instances are not to be found in practice.

The real-time culture of an organisation can be shielded from public view and external assessment through naive faith in espoused beliefs, myth-based slogans or go-to explanations of failure, such as “There is no funding”, and oversight procedures that are dependent on quantitative statistical data over qualitative assessment tools. The compulsion within a failing organisation and among high-ranking members of staff to conceal and redirect blame, and to defend themselves at all costs, creates a pathology within organisations that manifests toxic environments and reduces the service user to “problem” status.

It is clear the organisational culture of Tusla is woefully incongruent. The basic principles of the organisation, such as the protection of children, are not being achieved in many instances. Equally, the founding principle of aiming to keep families together has been long forgotten. Tusla, or whatever organisation replaces Tusla in the future, must go through a rebirthing process, a return to the espoused values and principles of the organisation and a rejection of the self-protectionism and abuses that have brought us to appear before this committee today.

I will pass over to Ms Monaghan.

Ms Michelle Monaghan

I believe there are shortfalls in the legislation that enable Tusla to escape prosecution when it fails to protect the children it has taken into State care. Tusla was set up under the Child and Family Agency Act 2013 and took over child welfare and protection from the HSE on 1 January 2014. The agency is bound by the 1991 Childcare Act. Its business name, registered with the Companies Registration Office, is “Tusla”. The nature of its business, registered with the CRO, is stated to be as follows. “Tusla” is a name used by the Child and Family Agency established under statute under the Child and Family Agency Act 2013. The Child and Family Agency is now the dedicated State agency responsible for improving well-being and outcomes for children. The Child and Family Agency sought to register the name “Tusla” as a business name to demonstrate that the name is associated with the agency. Under the functions of the agency as set out in section 8(1)(b) of the Child and Family Agency Act 2013, it is stated that a function of the agency is to: “support and promote the development, welfare and protection of children”.

In my opinion, Tusla is a business registered to promote the welfare and protection of children and therein lies the crux of the matter: the promotion of child welfare and protection falls short of the responsibility of providing child welfare and protection. My understanding is that Tusla is not a child protection agency in law. It is a promotion company for child protection and welfare.

The Minister with responsibility for children has powers under section 69 of the 1991 Childcare Act to investigate Tusla and authorise HIQA to carry out investigations on his or her behalf to ascertain whether Tusla is complying with national standards for child welfare and protection. However, section 69 does not legislate for sanctions when Tusla is non-compliant. We believe section 69 of the 1991 Childcare Act needs to be amended to give the Minister powers to sanction Tusla when it fails to protect children it has taken into care and places them in harm’s way. Furthermore, we believe section 3 of the 1991 Act and section 8 of the CFA Act 2013 need to be amended to make Tusla fully responsible for child welfare and protection.

I thank the witnesses for their in-depth opening statements. I have a couple of questions but as I am known to be a very fair Chair, I will let the other members start. I call Deputy McGrath.

Cuirim fáilte roimh na finnéithe. I welcome the witnesses and thank them sincerely for their ongoing work on behalf of the most vulnerable children in our communities and our country. The Constitution states that we must cherish all children equally. They are fighting a crusade on behalf of many mothers and some fathers to get objective, honest and proper care for their children. In some cases, where they feel their children have been wrongfully taken away from them, with the in camera rule and everything else, it is a huge challenge.

I have to put on record that I have no faith whatsoever in Tusla - zilch. When it was set up, I spoke in the Oireachtas. It was hived off into a corner of the HSE and the organisation was appointed. There was no thought, no planning, no proper checks and balances, and we have the results of it today. We need only think of the fact that in January of this year, 22 children went missing in State care.

Ms Kavanagh outlined a number of press reports and she mentioned Kitty Holland and others. I thank those members of the press for the work they have done because this is completely under wraps. The in camera rule in court needs to be examined because parents and advocates have no rights whatsoever. I thank this committee for hearing the witnesses today on this petition to see if we can bring some clarity and some element of fairness for the families and our people. We are all Teachtaí Dála and Seanadóirí. We are messengers of the people and it is our duty because the State has failed these people.

Not only has it failed them, but it is victimising them. Figures have been quoted on the money spent on private providers. Children were handed in to some of those private providers, which then allowed unvetted people to take charge of them. It is appalling. I am still involved in some clubs and organisations. The Garda vetting process is applicable to every person in many different organisations, and some people have to do it four, five and six times. To think we would be paying vast sums of money to private entities that do not have proper procedures and do not have people who are vetted beggars belief.

Apart from the testimonials to the committee today, I have been contacted about numerous cases across the country, including in the middle of the night. I was told by a now retired Garda superintendent in Clonmel about ten years ago that it was out of hand. Tusla and social workers might be dealing with cases during the week but, as the superintendent said to me, social workers want to take the weekend off so they call in gardaí at 3 p.m. to take the children out of the houses. That came from the mouth of a Garda superintendent. It is one of the cases. I have come across cases where Tusla employees are arrogant, uncaring and downright belligerent. I know of a family where two Tusla workers made an order against an adult man which meant he could not be with his own children.

The whole lot has since been totally dropped in court. A nolle prosequi was entered after several court cases. One of the Tusla officials, in front of this man's mother and siblings and other people who were appointed as helpers to the family, said they all thought he was guilty and laughed at them. That official is not a judge. No court of law found that gentleman guilty. Outrageous comments were made. I have heard that numerous times. It is quite disgusting and out of control. The more they are out of control, the more harm they can do and the more they can destroy the lives of families and individuals.

I get calls in the middle of the night from people. I attended a press briefing this morning at which it was highlighted that two or three Garda squad cars can go into a school yard in the middle of a school day to pick up children on the instructions of Tusla. This is in front of the children's classmates. It causes fear. Imagine three squad cars arriving in a school yard and taking away children. When the mother arrives at 3 p.m to pick them up from school, the children are gone. This is appalling behaviour. The Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, stood up recently and said Tusla is an excellent organisation and gave it top marks. This is despite all of the complaints he has heard and the countless number of times that my colleagues, Deputies Durkan, Tóibín and Paul Murphy, among others, have raised this in the Dáil. Not enough of our colleagues are challenging the system.

This system is essentially an adjunct of the HSE, hived off and given all these draconian powers. The ask from the testimony today is simple: we have to have powers. HIQA can close down nursing homes, and has done so in many situations involving physical buildings and possible dangers to people's health or safety. The issue we are talking about here is that of children going missing. There was an exposé in the Irish Examiner about children being picked from care and brought to a hotel, more than likely in order to be sexually exploited. It is a horror story. The sooner the Government deals with this situation, the better. Our State has failed these people so much.

From the bottom of my heart, I again thank the witnesses for their testimony today. How do they believe we, as a committee and public representatives, can get some justice? What actions do we in this Oireachtas need to take, albeit in the last months of its existence? What can we do to ensure the next Oireachtas takes this up and deals with it wholeheartedly? I would be interested in any suggestions they have as to what we can do. I salute them for their testimony and their dedicated hard work on behalf of children, young people and even the children who have not been born yet. I thank them for being here.

I thank the Deputy for not going over his time. We did say time was vital. Does Ms Kavanagh wish to come in?

Ms Anna Kavanagh

Yes. I would like to take this opportunity to thank Deputies Mattie McGrath, Durkan, Tóibín, Cronin and Paul Murphy, who have done amazing work in raising awareness in the Dáil Chamber about the lack of justice for birth mothers and their children. Deputy McGrath mentioned what a Garda superintendent told him. I did 20 interviews last year with 20 mothers and then asked 20 ladies to do voiceovers for a series called "Justice for Birth Mothers". It was our way of operating around the in camera rule, to give a voice to some of these mothers who were brave enough to trust me and to speak about what was happening to them.

One of the things that came across from speaking to the mothers was the Garda using its powers to take children. One mother went to pick her children up from school but when she got there her children were gone. She was not aware that there had been an ex parte court hearing earlier in the day and gardaí had arrived at the school and taken her children. One grandmother told me that her grandchildren were playing in the garden with their friends when the social workers arrived to take them. The children were screaming and bawling and they ran around the garden. It was horrendous and horrific. The kids were screaming and roaring as they were put into the car and driven away by the social workers.

There are almost 6,000 children in care. We in the alliance do accept there are cases of neglect where children need to be taken into care, but we represent the mothers who are desperate to get their children home. That runs to 700 mothers. There are approximately 6,000 children in care at the minute but we never stop to think about the process of those children being taken into care. One mother told us that her child ran around a block of apartments with the social workers running after her. They eventually caught hold of her and bundled her into a car and she was screaming and roaring.

To me, the most appalling and disgusting thing of all is the removal of newborn babies from mothers who have just given birth. The mother is told ahead of the birth that Tusla is going to go for a care order as soon as the baby is born. The files in the hospital will have "Tusla baby" emblazoned on them before the baby is even born. One mother described how she had to walk a mile to the courthouse two days after she gave birth. She was actually breastfeeding her baby. She had to stand around all day in the court while the criminal cases were heard before her case was called in for hearing. Tusla was granted a care order and she was told to have her baby ready for 2 o'clock the following day. She went back to the hospital and her curtains were pulled back. She had to breastfeed in public; she had no privacy. The following day, she had to bathe and dress her baby and put it into a carrycot. The security man came to the ward at the appointed time and brought her to the back door of the hospital, where there was a car running, with two social workers in it. She had to place the carrycot in the back of the car. The social workers drove off with the baby in the back of the car. She was immediately discharged, with absolutely no supports. You would not do that to an animal. I come from a farming background and I know-----

I apologise for cutting across Ms Kavanagh but I am conscious of time. I know others want to get in.

Ms Anna Kavanagh

Sorry.

That is just over five minutes but she can certainly come in again. She can finish up the point she is making.

Ms Anna Kavanagh

We have to look at how these children are taken into care. It is an abomination, like something that happened in history. People have to be aware that it is actually happening today.

I want to let Deputy Durkan in and then Ms Kavanagh can come back in.

I am not a member of the committee. I thank the Cathaoirleach for allowing me to speak for a few moments in support of the women and the case that has been made. I particularly want to emphasise the importance of the rights of the child. The rights of the child must be heard and the child's interests kept to the fore in all cases, regardless of whether there is litigation. It is no harm to remember that we had a referendum to ensure and fortify the rights of the child. It was necessary. That referendum was passed by the people for good reason. It was observed that in a changing world, the rights of the child needed and need to be strengthened. That has not manifested itself in practice to the extent that was intended. I thank those who have carried this campaign forward and spoken out on the basis of the need to change the system and bring the law into line with the Constitution in these circumstances.

Last, I thank all of those who have advocated to the press on this particular issue, including my colleague, Deputy Mattie McGrath, and others in the House, and to thank them for persisting with the case. Concerns have been expressed by many people, which would point to what is seen as an injustice. It is a failure to observe due process and natural justice and that must be addressed. The Minister is also looking at changing the law at present and probably has had expert opinion on these matters in the past couple of days. This will be fundamental in making it possible to ensure that the witnesses' concerns, and many more, are addressed. We also all have heard the cases of children, mothers, and in some cases fathers, who have found themselves isolated and ostracised from the children for months at the behest of the system.

Is Deputy Durkan aware that his camera is turned off? Can the Deputy turn on his camera please?

Apologies, it is on now. We need to recognise the necessity to pursue the case and cause at every level and to vindicate the concerns and treatment expressed by those people, be they children, mothers or, in some cases, fathers. Those concerns, as expressed to the committee and to all of us, need to be vindicated in the hope that something might be done. I am confident that we are coming to a position now where something is going to be done. We must remain vigilant and will try to ensure that the people who are victims and those they perceive as being victims are satisfied that justice is being done to the extent warranted.

Before I let Deputy McGrath go next, I want to say that this committee is very non-political, which is something we are very proud of. This is your "last-chance-dot-com" committee and everybody is entitled to have their say. I am very proud to say that with all the work of the members, the secretariat and researchers, it is one of the committees that gets results, sometimes very quickly. A lot of committees are geared whereby they are thought of as being talking shops but this one gets results. I am delighted the witnesses came in here today to raise these concerns because, as I said, this is the forum for it. Before I let in Deputy McGrath, I will ask one question. I was taken aback by the opening statement when it was said that the birth mothers are met by the invisible iron fist of Tusla. That is an immediate red flag. It was also stated that Tusla social workers notified management about failures to comply with the national standards for children in foster care. Being aware that we are in public session but that there is a need for a level of bluntness here, could the witnesses give a blunt explanation on what is meant by an "iron fist"? Is it dismissive? Is it a case of it stating "it is not your job or any of your business, go away" or is it all of that?

Dr. Finbar Markey

When we say an iron fist, we usually do not mean physical violence, although the physical taking of a child is an act of physical intervention. The iron fist is usually administrative in nature. I will give an example, and I will do my best not to identify anybody. As a social care practitioner, a 17-year-old girl became pregnant in the service that I worked in. I attended a meeting one day, where it was announced to the social work team that this child, six months before the child was born, was going to go into care. What was read out next was a report that was completely falsified. This occurred in a meeting later on. The report stated that this particular girl, while in our residential care, did not take the child to the hospital to be seen for five weeks. This was the reason that an absolute decision was made to take the child into care. That was a falsified report. Ultimately, it would have been our duty to take that baby down to the hospital if the baby was sick, which the baby was not. I sat at a table with five other professionals, who all knew this was not true, but kept nodding their heads. The reason for this was because it was a private company that we worked for. It depended on the contracts and cheques from this social work team. No matter what injustice or breach of people's personal rights or law occurred, it would never be raised by professionals, who had gone through an academic process that taught and inculcated them to raise these issues and to follow the values they were taught in college. The iron fist has a gentle visual about it, in that it is quite often a piece of paper, but it is, nonetheless, damaging.

Another example of the iron fist is the use of funding as an excuse for everything. We do not have the funding and that is why X, Y or Z. Funding had nothing to do with falsifying that document. Funding had nothing to do with most of the things that mothers came to us about and that are not measured by HIQA. HIQA looks at statistics, that is, at quantitative data. It is a desktop operation. It does not hear the genuine, horrific stories from mothers and fathers. The fist is an administrative one, and yet it can be the most damaging. If one person gave another a punch in the face, that can be got over. It is another thing if someone drags a person through a court, tells lies about that person and destroys that person's persona within his or her community. We have known mothers and fathers who have taken their lives because of these processes. It is gut-wrenching to witness it but to go through it must be horrific. Personally, I was in an orphanage for four years, and I can tell you how impactful that is. I am an educated and a balanced man but it impacts your personality development from day one until the day you die in terms of how you feel about yourself in the world. As a baby and as a child, you cannot see that the system did this. You will think your mother did this, that she handed you up willy-nilly and that follows you through life. It causes drug addiction in the future, alcoholism and lack of personal faith in the self.

The iron fist is not a usual fist of violence. It is administrative processes that are designed to oppress, such that the family becomes the problem. While working in social care, I never once came across a case where we tried to unify a family. It was quite the opposite. Whenever a mother was coming down for access to her children, eyes would be thrown up. The attitude would be "oh we have to organise this again", as though it was a problem. The families then become the problem. In many cases, €1 million for a child over three years is not what is needed. Instead, more than anything else, what is needed is human understanding and to try different things. There is one case of a man, who is a friend of mine and who is blind. Tusla put on paper that he could not keep his child because he was blind. We eventually had private assessments carried out and the assessors could not believe this man. He could do everything with no sight. He could change and feed the baby and could do everything, and this shocked them. Tusla, however, still was not happy. He put in a complaint five years ago. That complaint has still not been sorted out. In fact, that complaint is held against him. That is the problem. It is culture-wide.

There are two types of values. There are espoused values, which are all the lovely things read on paper, and then there are the real beliefs and values that happen on the ground in a place. HIQA does not assess or collate the data from the real things that happen on the ground. It is a desktop operation. I thank the committee for its time.

I thank Dr. Markey for his in-depth answer. There is always a worry that privatisation is for profit and not for a duty of care, and this seems to be across a lot of Departments. I will let Deputy McGrath back in again.

I thank Dr. Markey for being so honest about his own situation and lived experience. This question is for any of the witnesses and is in the knowledge that the court proceedings are held in camera and the witnesses are not present.

Do the witnesses feel that the justices, and I do not want to name or implicate anyone, are qualified or have the temperament to deal with the situation? I am always looking in the system for the retraining and updating of training for justices in the normal administration of justice because everything has changed much. Do the witnesses feel that the justice system and the people on the Bench have an understanding of the seriousness of this?

Dr. Finbar Markey

I will let Michelle take the most of this but I just want to make a point. There was a book written in the early 1980s by a guy called Lipsky. It was called Street-Level Bureaucracy. It is a fundamental reading piece for anybody who wants to study organisations. He looked at judges, members of the police departments in the United States and other administrative or civil service roles. He found that with judges, just like with everybody else, they do not even look at their cases. They are just put in front of them. They do not give it any detail because they have 200 cases to deal with over the next week. They do not go into any real detail about it and they always err on the side of officialdom. Officialdom always has the money to present its case through top solicitors, etc. For instance, there is the number of mothers who cannot even appeal a decision. They do not have the money to appeal it and cannot get anybody to take the case on, even though it could be a glaring injustice. The judges, to a degree, have their hands tied with time like everybody else with everything else, but it takes a judge, like anybody else, to understand we are dealing with human lives here. We are dealing with lives that have not yet been destroyed. If you get a guy who is 50 years old, who has been robbing shops since he was 20, and who has a drug addiction for the past 30 years, you might say to yourself there is no fixing that man to a degree. He is going to be up again. However, these are babies - just little babies - who have their whole lives ahead of them. That decision the judge makes in this day is so important. It is so important that, when you hear a mother is not speaking up, ask "Why not?" I will let Michelle in.

Ms Michelle Monaghan

Regarding judges, we speak on behalf of the mothers who have come to us. Anna has spoken about the podcast series she recorded. From those interviews, mothers do not feel they can get good representation in court. Many of them rely on legal aid and feel it falls short of their needs and their children's needs. We have discussed privately with the mothers whether the children should have separate legal representation but that is another avenue. At the end of the day, the mothers do not feel represented and sometimes have to represent themselves with no knowledge of the law. The very simple fact of the matter, whether you are legally trained or whatever, is that they feel the truth is not put on their file to the judge so the judge can adjudicate in a balanced way. They feel like their story has not been given to the court in a balanced way. Sometimes reports that have been made about that mother, which fall into that in camera rule, are not seen by them. How can a mother fight her case in court when perhaps the judge does not even realise that the mother in front of him has not seen the documentation Tusla has written about that mother?

I have one brief question, if I may. Have the witnesses looked at the experience and comparable situations in other European countries, as opposed to Ireland?

Ms Anna Kavanagh

Earlier this year, legislation was brought in in the UK that has lifted in camera rule so that, currently, the in camera rule is gone in more than half of the family courts in England and Wales. That is something that really needs to be done here in Ireland.

To pick up on the Deputy's point about justice and the courts, Ellen Coyne did a report earlier this week in the Irish Independent. Tusla, in my opinion, appears to be a law unto itself. Tusla is in breach of six High Court orders to provide specialist care for vulnerable teens. If I failed to comply with a High Court order, I would be deemed to be in contempt of court, and if I failed to purge my contempt, I would end up in jail. One of the mothers of one of the children actually brought a case to the High Court in April to have Tusla found in contempt of a High Court ruling to provide specialist care for her son but the judge, in that particular case, rejected her appeal. As we speak, Tusla is currently in contempt of six High Court orders to provide specialist care for vulnerable teens.

The other thing is that Finbar has spoken up about what the social workers have done. The registration body for Tusla is CORU, and it was the subject of an "RTÉ Investigates" programme by Barry O'Kelly last year. One of the things he uncovered is that Tusla is the body that is supposed to regulate psychologists but it has not actually taken the moves to do that. Currently, anybody can call themselves a psychologist and they can go into court and present expert reports. The judges are then making their judgments based on these expert reports coming from people who are not actually qualified. We are all familiar with Maurice McCabe, Tusla and the copy-and-paste error. It was all dealt with in the Charleton tribunal in 2017. The three social workers involved did not actually come before CORU until December 2023. That is more than six years later. CORU then decided that it was going to carry out this investigation in private. The whole thing is that there is actually no transparency and there does not appear to be any accountability for Tusla when it fails to protect children.

We had a situation earlier this year, in February, where the Minister with responsibility for children, Roderic O'Gorman, speaking at Tusla's celebration of ten years in existence, actually stated, according to a report by Jack Power in The Irish Times, that Tusla never caused him or the Government a moment of concern. That is really alarming given that the retired judge, Judge Simms, sent four reports to the Minister, Roderic O'Gorman, voicing his concerns about issues relating to children in State care.

We also had the UCD report in June 2023 - a very comprehensive report, I might add - said that children in residential care were being trafficked by predatory males into the sex industry. Deputy Peadar Tóibín, in the Dáil in February, raised the situation of one child who had gone missing. She was missing for 14 months and was actually found locked up in a brothel. These are the kinds of issues we are dealing with, and then when mothers-----

If Ms Kavanagh does not mind, I am conscious of time. As we say in Cork, the wealth of knowledge is there. The witnesses have been very definitive and I thank them for that. I am just conscious of time. Does Deputy Durkan want to come in on anything specific?

I thank the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach for the opportunity again. I just wanted to point out that, in fairness, Tusla is bound by the in camera rule, and anything that is affected by the in camera rule in any other quarter is restricted. It is not possible to get the degree of information or to challenge those who may have questions to answer in cases where the in camera rule applies. However, with regard to that last point that was made, the Minister has now indicated a change with regard to the qualification of those who are allowed to become expert witnesses in family law. I think that will have a big bearing on the kinds of things we have been talking about.

The final point I want to make concerns what brought this to my attention in the first place, namely children having been torn away from their mothers, effectively having been arrested and put into the custody of somebody else. There is nothing as heartrending as the case of a mother who sees her child or children being taken away and handed into somebody else's custody, particularly if she fears for their safety. It is not sufficient to tell her there is no need to worry and that the children will be quite safe. That does not reassure in those cases. The maternal instinct or bond is the strongest bond known in the human or animal world and we have to respect that. We understand something is about to be done, and I hope it is. I will continue to support those who continue to pursue these objectives.

Unfortunately, I have to leave as I have another matter coming up. I wish everyone well.

Ms Kavanagh read out a considerable number of news headlines when making her opening statement. Sometimes journalists get a bit of a bashing. One of the witnesses said it is about getting to the truth and having accountability and transparency. I have said many times at committee meetings that what I find most difficult to do in this country is help people to tell the truth, because that is when you get punished. One of the whistleblowers' cases has been mentioned. Even in the short time I have been here, I have worked on a protected disclosure. Fortunately enough, with the agreement of the Minister, Deputy Michael McGrath, and others, we reversed the burden of proof requirement to try to make things a little easier and more transparent.

This has really opened my eyes, and that is why I believe this committee is so important. My head is going at 100 mph saying that we have so much more to do now. I thank all our guests for attending. It has been extremely beneficial because sometimes when we come in here, we do not know what way it will go. The committee is a wonderful platform for people to state that there is something wrong and that it needs to be fixed. This is a public forum and it is where our guests should be. On behalf of the committee, I thank them very much for coming here today. If they want to make any closing remarks, they may do so.

Dr. Finbar Markey

I will make just one point. With regard to the types of sanctions we would like to see HIQA empowered to enforce on Tusla, we are not talking about financial sanctions. That would be ridiculous and compound other problems. We are talking about repetitive behaviour on the part of a member of staff, whether it is the falsification of information or the manipulation of processes. I have come across so many cases where the judge was erring in favour of the family. Tusla will tell the mother only the night before that her case is being moved and that it is now to be heard in a different county, with a judge it knows will go with it. This is highly manipulative. In those instances where this is provable, we would like to see HIQA able to direct Tusla to demote the relevant staff member or sanction him or her. As an expert in organisational culture, I understand that one of the most powerful things that keeps order in an organisation is myth. If new staff in a workplace hear that someone who manipulated information six months ago was fired and taken to the Garda, they will not do the same. That is completely lacking within Tusla.

I thank Dr. Markey for his fairness and bluntness. This arises with the Mental Health Commission and in respect of other issues. We seem to have gone around in a circle to the stage at which we need to claw back our accountability and responsibility, but there also have to be extremely strong repercussions. People need a major slap for doing this stuff. I cannot understand what is happening because there seems to be a lack of accountability across disability services and mental health services. We will certainly be following this up.

Ms Anna Kavanagh

I thank the committee for giving us the opportunity to appear before it. We really appreciate it. More important, the mothers whose voices are denied because of the in camera rule are so grateful to the committee. We will be coming up to an election pretty soon, either in the autumn or after Christmas, and we will know if individual Deputies and political parties are serious about giving justice to mothers and their children and if they make it part of their election manifestoes. Those who will be sitting down to negotiate the next programme for Government-----

I have no fear that if this committee is still going after the next election, the witnesses will certainly be back again.

Ms Anna Kavanagh

I thank the Chairman.

We will consider the next steps. We are aware that there are legislative changes that can be made. Our heads will be working at 100 mph on this. I thank the witnesses very much for coming today. It was certainly an eye-opener and a wonderful opportunity to put the information on the table. I hope the members of the press who are here listening today will carry the story. I will now suspend in order that the witnesses can leave.

Sitting suspended at 2.46 p.m. and resumed at 3.13 p.m.
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