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Joint Committee on Public Service Oversight and Petitions debate -
Wednesday, 12 Feb 2014

Security and Protocol Issues: Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission

We are now in public session. I welcome Commissioners Simon O'Brien, chairperson, Kieran FitzGerald and Carmel Foley of the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, GSOC, to our meeting. The commissioners are accompanied by Mr. Ray Leonard, deputy director of investigations, Mr. Chris McGuire, analyst, and Ms Suzie Rafter, communications and research officer. We are here today to discuss issues arising from reports of the unlawful surveillance of GSOC and the operation of the new protocols providing for enhanced co-operation between the Garda Síochána and GSOC, which were agreed in September 2013.

To ensure that mobile phone interference with the broadcasting equipment is kept to a minimum, I remind Members and those in the Public Gallery to switch their phones and tablets to aeroplane, safe or flight mode. I ask everyone to do that now because this meeting will be broadcast live on the Oireachtas television channel and on the Internet.

Before we commence, I will remind everyone of the position on privilege. Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I now invite Commissioner O'Brien to make his opening statement.

Mr. Simon O'Brien

Good afternoon. I thank the committee for its invitation to appear today. As members are aware, the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission was previously before this committee on 3 July 2013. On that occasion we discussed issues which had arisen regarding our capacity to properly investigate complaints alleging Garda misbehaviour. More specifically, we reported at that time on what we felt were undue delays by the Garda Síochána in the provision of information relating to investigations. The exchange of information between the Garda Síochána and GSOC is essentially managed under agreed protocols drawn up under section 108 of the Garda Síochána Act 2005, as amended. Protocols had been in place between the two organisations since the commencement of GSOC's operation in 2007. As outlined by us in July 2013, we were in negotiations with the Garda Síochána on the revision of these protocols.

In our annual report for 2012 and in a section 85 report, which was laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas, we reported on the delays caused to our investigations and the non-compliance by the Garda Síochána in terms of timeliness in the provision of information. Since our appearance before this committee, revised protocols were agreed and signed off by me, as chairman of the commission, and by the Garda Commissioner on 23 September 2013.

The operation of these revised protocols is a work in progress. However, both organisations are actively working to ensure compliance through ongoing monitoring and review. Indications are that some improvement in the system can be seen. The commission is happy to discuss any matters on those issues with the committee today.

In the past week, as members will be aware, information relating to a specific security sweep was published without authorisation from this commission. As a consequence of the publication, the focus on GSOC, the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, and other agencies has been intense. First, we would like to point out our unhappiness with the release of the contents of a secret document into the public domain. The media coverage at the weekend took us all by surprise. Since Sunday last, we have been briefing the Minister for Justice and Equality and the Garda Commissioner, dealing with press queries and so on.

As a direct result of the newspaper coverage on Sunday, I, as chairman of the commission, was called to see the Minister for Justice and Equality on Monday of this week. Over two hours, I updated him on the situation. I must point out there is an inaccuracy referenced in three separate places in a report that may come into the public domain. I pointed out the presence of inaccuracies to the Minister. I laid out to him that, in view of the amount of detail in the public domain last Sunday, the commission strongly suspects that a copy of a section of a report which is marked "secret" was possibly in the hands of a journalist. I expressed my regret to the Minister that he had been blindsided by the appearance of this information in the media.

I must explain to the committee my clear recollection of the reasons and the thinking to retain Verrimus, the UK specialist company. The final investigation report and the Verrimus documentation make reference to reasons for the sweep that do not accord with my recollection of those reasons. This is a matter that I identified in my own notes shortly after receiving and considering the final investigation report. I can only assume this arose because of a misunderstanding and I make no criticism of the authors. However, I am categorical in my recollection of the reasons but it is, nevertheless, important in the interest of clarity that this is brought to the attention of the committee.

On Monday, we launched an internal inquiry to see how much information was in the public domain. The three commissioners met the Secretary General on Tuesday afternoon to further update the position. Later that afternoon, after a kind invitation from the Garda Commissioner, I met him privately in Garda headquarters to brief him. He again had been blindsided by the release of this information. He was understandably concerned and during our two-hour meeting I tried to allay his sense of grievance. We have agreed for the benefit of public confidence to ensure we continue to maintain and develop the relationship between our two organisations. We both agreed to try to find a way through this crisis.

Last night, we felt the level of public discourse was such that we needed to appear in public to answer questions. The commission was represented on “Prime Time” and that was another way to update the wider public on this series of unfolding events.

Why did we conduct this inquiry? As a brief background, I will outline the work in which GSOC has been engaged for the past few years. We were appointed in December 2011. From the earliest days of our tenure, we were conscious that in the context of organisational risk management, it is prudent for the purposes of good governance that precautionary measures are utilised to allay fears of unauthorised penetration of assets, physical or electronic. GSOC has, since its commencement of operations in 2007, taken seriously all aspects of its security and carries out ongoing testing, as well as reviewing, of its systems and procedures. Part of this ongoing monitoring includes penetration testing of electronic systems and security sweeps. The staging of these test procedures is sensitive and it is, therefore, closely guarded in the context of information control. This, as members will appreciate, is a standard operating procedure for organisations holding sensitive data.

In the early days after our appointment, we decided that a security sweep of our building, which had not been undertaken since 2007, was something we would undertake. We did not progress this immediately at that time. Security checks, albeit part of standard procedures, should always be predicated on the level of risk that exists at any time. Risk assessment should be dynamic as time and circumstances change. The work of GSOC is high profile. The work we are engaged in can accrue great interest and it is wise to put risk assessment in that context.

Throughout 2012, we spent considerable time negotiating privately with the Garda Síochána around our operational protocols, addressing issues of timelines and other issues of interagency co-operation. Towards the end of 2012, we took a strategic decision that we needed to air publicly some dissatisfaction with the level of co-operation we were getting from the Garda Síochána. This resulted in us making very public comment around the publication of one report following a sensitive investigation. For example, on 9 May 2013, we took the unusual step of submitting to the Minister a special report in accordance with section 80(5) of the Garda Síochána Act 2005. That special report contained some highly critical comments on our relationship with the Garda Síochána. A few weeks later, on 23 May 2013, we also made some further criticism of the Garda Síochána’s adherence to our operational protocols in our annual report. Members may recall that this committee invited us to attend to discuss these reports on 3 July 2013. This was a level of publicity and controversy which was unusual for the commission. In the context of this public profile, we did then have heightened concerns about confidentiality, particularly in light of some public discourse appearing to be exceptionally well-informed. For that reason, consideration was given to the engagement of the Irish firm which had previously undertaken such a security sweep for this organisation.

When did we conduct this inquiry? On 9 June 2013, contact was made with that Irish service provider but it was established the firm was no longer operational. Further inquiries were made with oversight bodies similar to GSOC in Northern Ireland and England and Wales to establish whether a suitable resource to undertake this work existed. On 3 September 2013, contact was made with a UK service provider. On the basis of a recommendation of suitability, this UK firm, which specialises in technical surveillance counter measures, was engaged by GSOC.

How was the inquiry conducted? On 23 to 27 September 2013, in accordance with standard operating procedures, a security sweep was conducted of GSOC’s office. The overall cost of the security checks undertaken in late 2013 was just under €18,000. As well as the general check of our building, the commission also sought expert advice on the sorts of capabilities that exist in the interception of ICT communications, including telephones.

What was found? Two potential threats were identified during this security sweep from 23 to 27 September 2013. The first threat was a wireless device located in the boardroom - the commission’s conference room - which was found to have connected to an external Wi-Fi network. Access to this wireless device was protected by a password. Absent this password, the device should not have been able to connect to that external Wi-Fi network. As GSOC does not have a Wi-Fi network, this device had never been activated by GSOC and its password was unknown.

Its connection to an external network was, therefore, a concern. This device, although Wi-Fi enabled, was unable to communicate with any of GSOC’s databases or electronic systems.

As part of the security checks, the conference call telephone unit located in the chairman’s office was subjected to a number of tests, one of which was an alerting test. Immediately after this test, the conference phone line rang. The security expert judged the likelihood of a wrong number being called at that time to that exact number was so small as to be virtually zero. GSOC conducted a number of telecoms checks to seek to establish the source of this telephone call but was unable to do so. Further checks revealed no additional anomalies or matters of concern.

On 7 October 2013, after confirmation paperwork was received from the specialist firm, the investigation team assessed these two threats. On 8 October 2013, a public interest investigation was launched, pursuant to section 102(4) of the Garda Síochána Act 2005. The investigation was launched on the basis that the acting director of investigations was of the opinion that, to the extent these threats could be proved, section 102(4) engaged. This is to say such surveillance may have originated within An Garda Síochána and, if so, a member of An Garda Síochána may have committed an offence or behaved in a manner that justified disciplinary proceedings. The investigation was launched in the public interest to ensure the objectives of GSOC, as set out in section 67(1) of the Act, were not compromised or impugned.

As part of that investigation, the specialist firm was re-engaged and a number of steps were undertaken, including accessing retained telecommunications. During the course of the investigation, the specialists advised on the risks of interception to mobile telephony. The commission established that commercial products were available that could, for example, intercept mobile phones, take them over and send and delete texts from them.

During a visit by the specialist firm on 19 and 20 October 2013, it detected a UK 3G network. UK networks do not operate within Ireland, except in Border areas. It advised that such a network could only be simulated through a specialist device. The device simulated a UK mobile phone network which picks up UK phones registered with that network. Once a phone has been connected, it can be forced to disable call encryption making the call data vulnerable to interception and recording. The specialist firm indicated this level of technology was only available to Government agencies.

With regard to what the inquiry found, analysis of these threats was inconclusive. GSOC was operating at the limits of its technical knowledge and on information only from security professionals. The commission did not rule out that there could be reasonable explanations for any or all of these issues. Connection by the Wi-Fi device in the conference room with an external Wi-Fi network was occurring randomly and with no discernible pattern or agent apparent. The anomaly in the telephone unit in the chairman’s office could not be repeated. The commission could not rule out the possibility that an innocent call was made to the office at 1 a.m. Telecoms data could not identify a number from which the call had originated or even that a call had been made. Concerning the device scanning for mobile phones, the commission could not rule out that such a device was being lawfully used in the vicinity of our building or that it was not directed at our building.

In the absence of any further clarification, the commission could not simply proceed on the basis that these issues were purely innocent or coincidental. Accordingly, it conducted a specific operational test on 19 November 2013. This was co-ordinated by the security firm and involved a GSOC investigation team. It also involved the three commissioners to test these issues. This operational test yielded no results and added no clarity to the threats identified.

With regard to why the results were not reported, the report was in my possession only just prior to the Christmas break. I had to think very carefully about the need to report matters to the Minister and other parties. At the time I made a strategic decision not to report what could be described as suspicious activity that did not meet the threshold of an offence. I have said before in my briefing to the Minister and to the Garda Commissioner that I regret my decision now. My decision-making at the time just prior to Christmas looked at the potential damage that could be done to public confidence if these suspicious activities were in the public domain. We had opened an investigation under section 102(4) and the threshold test was achieved, but, by definition, any likely offence might involve a Garda member. The level of public disquiet about allegations that gardaí might be involved in that type of activity was immense. I took the decision alone not to report at the time and, to the point of having publication forced on the State, I still had not engaged in any reporting. It is our earnest wish that we can all learn from and move on from this experience.

The first questions will come from Senator Susan O'Keeffe.

I thank Mr. O'Brien for his very coherent presentation. Before we get into the detail, I wish to ask whether there are other similar reports or sweeping episodes which have not been notified by the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission.

Mr. Simon O'Brien

No.

To Mr. O'Brien's knowledge, have other police ombudsman offices ever been bugged? Does this go with the territory?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

We should think about the language used. I do not concur with terminology such as "bugged". I certainly suspect or potentially suspect we may have been under some form of surveillance. I have no information in my possession that any other ombudsman's office has ever been under this type of surveillance.

In his presentation Mr. O'Brien made reference to his categorical recollection of the reasons for the choice of Verrimus. Are we to understand from this that there is no written evidence of his choice at the time? Did he write down his reason at the time or is it a memory? He has stated his recollection is at odds with the documentation of Verrimus. Does he also have documentation or is it a recollection only?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

I have a policy log which I have with me today on my decision-making. It has been concurrent and consecutive throughout this operation. I am concerned that in a particular report which I read and of which I took possession just before Christmas the rationale put up front in the report is not the type of rationale I had in my mind, nor have I had in my mind, regarding any issue of the initial security checks or the launching of any investigation. I have a clear note of what was in my mind. There is potential for further miscommunication and it is very important that I bring it to the attention of the committee. When I met the Minister and the Commissioner, I was fully open that there was potential for more criticism and more public media coverage, as I believe the initial report may be out there. We have now released to the Minister some other technical reports.

The issue I am at odds with is within the report marked "secret" and it appears in three Verrimus reports. I have no idea what is out there among the journalists. I am absolutely secure and confident about what I have given to the Minister. What could be interesting is that we could have another series of public discourses about the rationale for why this occurred, the reasons we had to undertake the security check and the reasons we launched the investigation. I am very clear about what was in my mind in terms of the investigation. Also, having chatted to my colleagues who went to tender for the security firm's work, they do not concur with the type of rationale being put on these documents. I put it there as a warning. If documents are out there, I suspect I might have another very early Sunday morning.

Mr. O'Brien referred to the meeting with the Garda Commissioner and spoke about trying to allay his sense of grievance. If I understand Mr. O'Brien's report, he met him on Tuesday. Mr. O'Brien speaks about him also being blind-sided. Was his sense of grievance related to Mr. O'Brien's statement the previous day or to the release of the information, in which case why would he have a sense of grievance about it? Perhaps Mr. O'Brien might clarify this.

Mr. Simon O'Brien

I wish to be very clear. I thought it was a very kind offer by the Garda Commissioner. He called me on Tuesday around midday to say he and I should have a cup of coffee. I agree with the Garda Commissioner that almost the entire duration of that conversation will be confidential between him and me. What we agreed towards the end was that I would publicly state he and I and our two organisations would try to get past this particular difficulty to ensure we served the State and came together to reduce any other denuding of public confidence.

However, he had a sense of grievance.

Mr. Simon O'Brien

The Senator will have to ask the Commissioner. However, had I been the Commissioner, I would have had a sense of grievance.

The heart of the matter is why Mr. O'Brien decided to proceed at this point. He said in his submission that when he had been appointed in 2011 there was an agreement to have a general sweep, as there had been none since 2007. For some reason, he did not proceed with it at that point. He waited until 2013 when he says the prevailing atmosphere after the various reports and testimony was becoming more complex and intense, which was something the agency was not used to, and the public discourse appeared to be exceptionally well informed. That leads me to believe there was material in the public domain that might have only come through some form of collection or leak. Perhaps he might clarify this. There has been much confusion about this point, that is, whether it was a routine sweep or whether Mr. O'Brien specifically said the sweep should take place.

Mr. Simon O'Brien

There has been a great deal of public discourse. That is exactly what I wished to avoid in some of my decision-making which, as I said, I now regret. However, let us be very clear. We work in an information-rich environment and society, a society where technology is moving forward. We work in an environment where information can come out either through human sources who might work for the agency speaking to other people outside the agency, through surveillance or through overheard conversations. The result is that, at times, it appears that some comment on what should be issues of confidentiality within our organisation, even between individuals, is being discussed in newsprint and the media or potentially just between other people.

As I said in my opening statement, risk assessment and risk management must be dynamic. To refer back to the inception of our period in office, we three made little or no public comment in the first year. We were working quietly and, as we made clear on the last occasion we appeared before the committee, engaging with An Garda Síochána. Timeliness was an absolutely implacable issue for us as a commission. We waited a lengthy time while we were trying to improve this. There were conversations between us, as the commission, on whether we would ever become more vocal and public about the problems we were having. As that level of more public discourse happens, the level of risk of other people wanting to know what one might be saying increases. If the level of risk increases, one starts to think about how to mitigate that risk and what sort of counter-risk measures should be put in place.

In terms of risk assessment, there is a risk at all times. One can do a number of things. One can identify and isolate that risk and eliminate it. One can identify and examine that risk and accept some potential part of that risk because it is good for one, one can try to mitigate some parts of it, or one can just accept that there is the risk and work with it. We look at these types of issues all the time, but that is part of a standard procedure where there is proper governance and proper administrative governance. That is where we are. I am absolutely clear that this security check came about as a result of nothing more than the thought that while the risks were increasing, we might need to start thinking about and be aware of what risk we might be exposing ourselves to.

How many of the staff knew about the sweep occurring? Did it occur at night, as has been suggested, and, if so, why?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

We kept knowledge of the security sweep to a very tight group of individuals. I think it numbered no more than four or five. One cannot have a security sweep of a building while all of the staff are in the building. We took the decision to have it done late in the evening. There have been many reports of covert operations and black operations at night, but this was a sensible way to conduct an operation where we retained some form of confidentiality about the fact that it was being done. We could have that reasonable expectation. I wish to be clear that at this time we were looking at potentially external risks to information flows being seized or captured or us being surveilled externally. What is clearly the case is that we have a problem internally. That is a real issue. We had always warned staff over the period of time about different conversations and possible leaks. It was right that we had kept this very tight so that a small group of people could assess what the findings might be and then start to think about how we could mitigate or eradicate the risks found.

I thank the witnesses for meeting us today. Mr. O'Brien took exception to the Senator using the words "bugging device". Let us call a spade a spade. Whether it was a bug or other type of device, I do not understand why he should take exception to that language being used. If he were to call a spade a spade in giving his evidence, it would be very helpful. The elephant in the room is who leaked this story. Why was it leaked, in Mr. O'Brien's opinion? Why at the time did he not have enough confidence in the Minister to go to him directly? He touched on this in his report which we only received at the start of the meeting. Why did he not have enough confidence in the Minister to go to him immediately, as he should have? If a similar situation arose now or in the future, does he have enough confidence in the Minister to go to him?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

I do not like the term "bug" which conjures up a very old way of thinking about how surveillance may be conducted internally, with devices needing to be planted. If one thinks of the forward strides in technology, this old-fashioned word does not describe the nature of surveillance in this day and age and what it will be in the future.

I do not know who leaked the report, but I would certainly like to know. It is an outrage for somebody to take a secret document and I cannot understand a benign reason for wanting to put it in the public domain. I have launched an investigation and hope to get to the bottom of the matter. If somebody has leaked that sort of information, he or she needs to be brought to justice. I have every confidence in the Minister. I took the decision just before Christmas and got the final report to think through the ramifications of this and my reporting responsibilities. I had not informed the Minister of what I had done prior to publication of this issue. It was good journalism on the part of the media to raise this creditable question and I am quite happy to be called to account. I regret the fact that I did not inform the Minister, but I did it for the very best reasons. I could see down the line that even the mention of the fact that we had opened up an investigation into these security incidents had immense potential for further damage in what was already a strained relationship between the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission and An Garda Síochána. Unfortunately, where we are now is where I feared we would go had I reported the matter to the Minister who clearly has a responsibility to make this public. Upon my head I took that decision. I recorded that decision and have monitored it during the past few weeks and have worried about it. I made it with the very best of intentions. I think the people of the State are and should be horrified to think one State agency would be in any way surveilling another State agency. At present we have no evidence that An Garda Síochána was surveilling my organisation. As was picked up earlier, any language around this can be injurious to the men and women of An Garda Síochána. The members of the force do a fantastic job for the State and all of us. I am sure that when this type of story appeared, as it has, had I been the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána, I would have been furious. I take responsibility for this and I am quite happy to come before the committee and be called to account.

On that matter, the general secretary of the AGSI, Mr. John Redmond, has already stated Mr. O'Brien has cast aspersions on the good character of the force and cast a slur on its members.

I will now revisit the bugging of GSOC. If a person goes into a room and plants a device that is not supposed to be there, whether one calls it a "bug" or a "device" - one cannot get away from the fact that a bug is a bug - it does not take Inspector Clouseau to figure out that if one could identify the person or people who leaked this story, one might also find the source or who planted the device. That would kill two birds with the one stone. Is there anybody else in GSOC, in addition to Mr. O'Brien, whom he thinks should resign over this matter? Does he think the handling of this matter is a resigning matter?

A final question, please, Deputy. In fairness, we want the format to be a question followed by an answer.

If Mr. O'Brien deals with my question, that will do me for now.

Mr. Simon O'Brien

I thank the Deputy for his questions. As the Taoiseach and others have called for clarity, let us be clear on some of the issues involved. The Deputy continues to use the word "bug". The first threat was a piece of existing technology that the staff of GSOC had both purchased and installed. It was not the device that was suspicious but the activity it was undertaking. We need to be clear on that point.

The second threat was anomalous or suspicious activity on my conference call. That is not a bug, but it could be something that comes in from the outside.

The third threat was some form of external scanner. It is really important that we try to get our language right and in this session I will be completely open with members, as I should, and try to give as much information as I can. I am concerned that because of this matter, we are talking about covert policing methodologies that would not necessarily or normally be in the public domain. Already we are starting to talk about issues that could be of advantage to both criminal networks and terrorist organisations. I want to be very clear that there may be certain things on which I will limit my language and some of the knowledge I have.

In response to the question of resignation, I have considered my position personally. I considered my position when I went to speak to the Minister and I considered my position with my colleagues because towards the end of this particular investigation I leave the two good people alongside me as culpable and liable for some of the activities I have undertaken. That is the reason I am very clear that I have taken the decisions I have taken. I have considered my position. When I went to see the Minister and the Secretary General, it was pleasing that they did not immediately call for my head. Equally, when I called on the Garda Commissioner, Martin Callinan, he said I had made and taken operational decisions; that I had made and taken decisions that were very difficult. I thought it was a very positive offer for the Garda Commissioner to say it might be wise for him, Martin Callinan and me, Simon O'Brien to move forward. I would like to see the other side of this crisis. I would like to lead the organisation to the other side of it. If Deputies and Senators, the President and the people of Ireland lack confidence in me as chairman of GSOC and I indicate that my position is then untenable to try to lead the organisation to the other side of the crisis, then, of course, I will go.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae's time is up, but I will allow him to ask one question.

It is the same one. Mr. O'Brien has explained how he and the Commissioner were kissing and making up, but I want to return to the issue of the leak. My assertion is - Inspector Clouseau could not come up with better - that if the person who leaked the story is identified, does he think that is the person who was responsible for the planting of the devices or organising it in the first instance?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

The Deputy's comment on the Commissioner and I kissing and making up is a light way of saying and describing a very kind offer from the Garda Commissioner who invited me for coffee to have a man to man discussion about where we found ourselves. I do not make light of this. I was very respectful of his offer and I am glad that we have had that conversation. Of course, it is not about Inspector Clouseau; we are carrying out an investigation and will have to think about what shape that investigation takes, but GSOC has been put in the grave position where a secret document has been put in the public domain.

It could be likely that the person who leaked the report is also responsible for other issues within our organisation. As a police officer myself for many years, I have always kept an open mind on an investigation. Then one sees what evidence presents and whether that might lead to a suspect being either brought forward for prosecution or brought to justice.

I thank the chairman. The next questioner is Deputy Derek Nolan.

I welcome everybody. I want to continue on a little bit on the train of thought that Deputy Healy-Rae was following. This was considered such a serious issue because we were talking about information that could potentially be very serious - that was being used in investigations and so on - being leaked into the public domain. Mr. O'Brien had grave concerns, and Mr. FitzGerald said last night on the television that he had concerns about articles, quotes and so on that he read in the newspaper and that led him to a "heightened awareness" of risk, as he said. That led to the investigation into the security technologies.

What struck me about Mr. O'Brien's evidence was that four to five people in your organisation knew about the investigation taking place and ruled out or could not definitively say that information was lost. Four to five people knew that. Out of the four to five people who knew that, that report came out into the public domain. We have four to five people in his organisation and therefore we know it is one of those five that was involved in leaking the report. Contrary to what we believed at the start, the security risk is very real, exists today and is something that we have to be very concerned about right now. If a document marked as secret and confined to an inner circle of people can be leaked then anything in your office can be leaked.

Mr. Simon O'Brien

Again we want clarity. This is our time to give as much of that clarity as we can. Four to five people would have been involved in the original security scan. That was increased when we opened the investigation up. Again, we are talking of a cohort of probably only ten people that were included in the investigation as it moved forward. They are clearly identified within my decision log. We met in quite difficult circumstances.

The Deputy is right; we are not confining our suspect group to those individuals who were included. As we speak now we are making inquiries of our own technology to see if there is any way that copies of the report could have been printed. It was on a separate stand-alone secure system that this report was being held. All of those issues are being closed down so that we can now take some time to look carefully at who or who might not have accessed, seen, printed or taken this particular issue.

I must say again for clarity that I am at a disadvantage as to what is in the public domain. What I can say is that what I read on the Sunday morning in my bed was, without doubt, a piece of journalism that had an awful lot of provenance. Such was the level of detail that is indicated to me that it could be a particular report that I received just before Christmas. Lots more investigative steps on that are being taken. This came to us only on Sunday. I have to say that we have spent some time with skids under the back of our heels trying to catch up in relation to this particular ongoing inquiry. Now I have had a foot-on-the-ball moment - probably just last night - and really started to get to grips with what we need to do next.

I was glad to have met the Garda Commissioner. Now is the time to start investigating how we have got to where we are. Now is the time, Senators and Deputies, to call me and others to account about why we have got to where are. I am quite happy now to be in front of the committee within just three days of this happening so that I can give members clarity in a controlled environment and in a controlled way. That is not where we have been in the last 48 or 36 hours. We have really just been trying to find out who said what to whom and what has been happening. Let us get ourselves back on track. As I say, there is a bit of grip around things now and some thoughts on how we go forward. I am happy to take this organisation forward unless someone, or other people or a number of people say that is not right.

Mr. O'Brien has run down the clock a little bit. I have ten minutes, and Mr. O'Brien said this before. Is it his view now that there is a leak, a mole, or whatever he wants to call it, in his office?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

I am absolutely focused internally, at this present time, on this particular issue.

Does it not say something about the organisation and the mindset that exists that Mr. O'Brien opened up an investigation into the Garda and assumed, under the law, that it was the Garda that had done it? He was completely unaware that it might have been someone from within his own camp, which is now his prime suspect.

Mr. Simon O'Brien

Let us be clear and get some clarity here. If one is given a report by a security firm which indicates the threats that were identified in the early stages - just after the security scan - one and I would say "Who would be the suspect group?". It is clear that there are many people out there who may want to get some information from our building. It could be any number of people such as journalists or maybe people who have complaints. I must, however - as unpalatable as it seems and as unpalatable as it is to hear - put within that potential suspect group a member of An Garda Síochána. It not an organisational issue. It could be a rogue member. We opened up the report because we believed the threshold had been made or the criminal investigation was made. We proceeded with a very healthy degree of scepticism. When that level of risk or threat is presented, you have to start deciding what you are going to do about that. What we were very clear about was that whatever we did we would do quickly, and whatever we could do we would just come back to try and get some form of clarity as to where the problems of these threats came from.

Mr. O'Brien mentioned his procedure with scepticism, and I accept that. What he did do - he mentioned it just previously - was to realise that there were other people who could have been involved - criminal elements, journalists who may have been looking for a story, etc. There could have been any number of people who wanted the information. His scepticism did not prevent him from believing that the surveillance may have originated within the Garda Síochána and, if so, a member of An Garda Síochána may have committed an offence or behaved in a manner that justified disciplinary proceedings. That was the basis for his investigation, not that there was a security threat and that it could have been any other source. He made the specific decision, albeit perhaps sceptical, that it was members of the Garda alone who were the chief suspects.

Mr. Simon O'Brien

We are a State investigative agency. We are a corporate body. I was faced, and we were faced, with threats to our independence and to the way we do our business. I think it was a proportionate and justifiable action to open this investigation and then allow us to use some of our police powers to look at these specific threats - one involving the telephone and one involving an IT network. Again, without going into policing methodology that would benefit other people, it was important that we could proceed quickly. While I have said that I keep an open mind, I have to say on this one that I really hoped that I could close this down, isolate, potentially look at those threats and then say that we had mitigated those threats because they do not come forward. That was always my intention. If one looks at where we are now, we cannot get to any specific place where we can say these threats have moved forward any more than that they could have been suspected surveillance activities.

Strictly one last question, Deputy.

I will take a double-barrelled approach. Sticking with the technology question, what we are seeing is that it is more likely now, because your report was leaked subsequent to all of your checks being done, that there was no technology issue and that it was an internal leak all along. Is that a line that you are pursuing?

Second, how can you assure people who may have left sensitive information with you, or who may left have private, secret documents, as this report was labelled, with the GSOC, that the information is secure and they will not be reading about it in a Sunday newspaper shortly?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

That is of concern to us. Obviously the Deputy will be aware that even since the report was given to me just before Christmas, and prior to that, we were already building our firewalls up higher. We were starting to look at the learning we were taking even from just the first connection with the security experts. This was all about internal sweeps of the building, external looks at where the threats might come from, even just being overlooked.

One of the potential issues I did talk about was asking questions of security experts of what capability could be ranged against us. Without giving too much away, I was shocked to think about the level of threat that came with mobile telephony and all of those issues we are now taking back into our risk management systems. We are where we are today. I hope we can move past this, but in terms of our surveillance operation, by definition, it should, if it is successful, remain very very imprecise. If one is the subject of surveillance and one has any knowledge of that surveillance, the surveillance is failing. Any person undertaking surveillance would want to make sure that at the end of the surveillance operation the situation remained completely imprecise. That is where we find ourselves; we have no precision; we have suspicion. We have suspected activity and nothing, in my view and professional judgment, would have got past the threshold test to say we had an offence.

Does Mr. O'Brien believe his office is compromised?

That is the end of the Deputy's questions. I have to be strict.

I thank the GSOC witnesses for appearing before the committee. Mr. O'Brien has used the word "clarity" many times, but I am not getting clarity. I would appreciate it if we could have short, succinct and direct answers to questions in order that there can be absolute clarity. I am trying to sift through what is being said. Will Mr. O'Brien tell the committee very simply in order that the people who are watching can understand if it is his opinion there was a leak at a high level within the Garda ombudsman's office of this report to the media and that the office is now looking for that mole? Is that correct?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

I believe firmly that, with the amount of information that has gone out, it is highly likely that information has come from documents from within GSOC. I do not know whether the leak is at a high level, if the Deputy wants to use that term, or a low level.

Mr. Simon O'Brien

We will launch an investigation to try to get to the bottom of it.

Therefore, we have a leak of secret documents from the Garda ombudsman's office to the media and Mr. O'Brien has indicated more will be leaked, probably in next Sunday's newspapers. How many people would have had access to the secret report?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

Fewer than seven.

Can Mr. O'Brien tell the committee who they are?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

I would not wish to name them at this time as an investigation proceeds. I do not wish to comment on that investigation. I am thinking of some of these questions and want clarity, but I do not want to compromise-----

I advise the chairman to take legal advice on that matter. It is a fair question in bringing the issue into the public domain, but he may wish to take legal advice before he responds.

This is a serious issue. A small number of people, approximately seven, had access to a secret report, yet that report has found its way into the hands of the media and the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission is investigating the matter. That is a serious revelation. Mr. O'Brien has also said that what prompted GSOC to do the security sweep and enlist the British security experts was that it had suspected it was under surveillance. In fact, he did not use the past tense in his statement or some of his earlier comments. He has said he suspects GSOC was under surveillance. Does he still believe that, apart from the leak which amounts to a very serious matter, GSOC was under surveillance? I am aware that he has said GSOC does not have definitive proof one way or another and does not have definitive evidence, but does he believe and suspect GSOC was under surveillance?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

The security check, a security sweep, initially was in relation to a general level of risk to identify risks and mitigate these risks. I had nothing in my mind to say we were under surveillance. We clearly had issues in terms of information flows that might be difficult to understand or explain and the whole idea at first was to look at ourselves and our buildings to see what capability was ranged against us. It was after we had made that check that we had further suspicions and now we started to talk about specific threats. At the time there was an indication, a suspicion, that someone might have been surveilling GSOC. As the issues came forward, with two specific threats, found very close one after the other, anyone in a reasonable organisation, in taking reasonable steps to protect its security, would have had to think about what to do and how to try to mitigate these threats.

I take that point, but it appears there are two different things which could or might not be connected. We have clearly established that Mr. O'Brien believes there was a leak. Who has access to secret information within the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission and is giving it to people in the media? That is a very serious issue. On what initially led GSOC to enlist the security firm, it was in the context of a higher profile for the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission after he had made public comment that he was not receiving adequate co-operation from the Garda. That was one context. The other was that there seemed to be high level information in the public domain that he could not explain; presumably, it should have been information that was secure within the GSOC organisation. Given the context in which GSOC had initiated the security sweep, was the possibility of surveillance discovered, with the three anomalies which have not been explained fully, one way or another, but which could have malign or benign explanations? What is Mr. O'Brien's view on whether GSOC was under some form of external surveillance? Is he now of the opinion that GSOC was not under surveillance? Can GSOC be secure in view of the problem that there is an internal leak or has Mr. O'Brien concerns about external surveillance?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

I come back to the original point. Initially we were looking at the risks presented to our security. At the time we may have been under surveillance. In any risk assessment process one has to look at the range of threats across the building. One of them could have been being looked at through binoculars. One looks at all of these things to identify whether the potential risk is high, low or medium and how to respond. Therefore, when we get to the point of threat, of course, one says there could be a level of surveillance by another person or agent-----

Time is short. In order to leak a secret document one does not need surveillance equipment if one has access to the document. This is where two things can potentially be confused. One only needs access to the document to get it out. There may be a question about how one got it out, by photocopying it or whatever else, but one does not need Government level surveillance technology. We have established that a secret document was got out, probably by a small number of people who had access to it. What I am asking about is the other side of the story, the security anomalies and the possibility that surveillance equipment was being deployed against GSOC. As that issue has been investigated, we do not have any definitive answer, but the two-piece threat is not so alarming, so to speak, but threats two and three are quite alarming. On threat two, after the test had been done, the possibility of somebody ringing back immediately at 1 a.m. was described as remote to zero by the security experts. I am alarmed by this. There could be a benign explanation, but the balance of probabilities suggests there is not and that is what the security experts believed. Is that correct? Is that not something about which we should be deeply concerned?

I remind the Deputy that his time is up. If the Deputy has an additional question, it must be asked now rather than afterwards.

I have a final question. Is Mr. O’Brien’s concern that his recollected reasons for initiating the security investigation are different from those in the report that he believes may come out in the newspapers this Sunday? Can he tell us more about that? Can he explain why the possible conflict of explanations as to why the investigation was launched in the first instance exists? It seems pretty strange that Mr. O'Brien has one version of why he initiated the investigation while somebody who may leak a report on Sunday has a different one.

Mr. Simon O'Brien

The Deputy is seeking clarity on whether we are now under surveillance. I have no idea. These suspicions have now been identified. Once one recognises that a risk of being under surveillance exists, through a telephone line or by visual means, one must mitigate the risk. One must up-spec one’s security either to accept or mitigate that risk. There could well be potential that somebody might be looking at our building. The identity of that person or agency is completely unspecific. The exact reason people undertake covert surveillance is so they will not alert one to the surveillance and be able to watch one for longer. What was the Deputy’s second question?

How can Mr. O'Brien explain his expressed fear that there are two different explanations as to why the investigation was initiated? This would give cause for public concern or concern on the part of anyone examining the matter. Mr. O'Brien seems to intimate there are directly conflicting explanations as to why the investigation was launched in the first place.

Mr. Simon O'Brien

I am sorry; I should have taken that question also. I do not know what may come out but I am clear on the position if a certain document is in the hands of other people, such as a journalist. I have looked at that document and it does not fit my recollection of why a particular security check was revealed. I say it now because I am on the Oireachtas record and because I believe it will be important not to have another round of public disquiet and public comment if the content of the document emerges this weekend. I have been very clear in meetings with colleagues and others who may be involved in this that I would rather flag this aspect of what may be said.

How did it happen? As with the Deputy’s previous question on whether we are talking about ongoing investigations – I will not be naming anyone owing to legal advice nor commenting further, and I hope I have not commented too much already – we will see exactly what may come out. From that point, we will respond to that. It is very important that I have looked at what I have seen. If I have seen a particular fault, I have briefed the Minister as clearly as I could as the information was still coming to light. I am briefing other colleagues to say we should wait to see what other potential issues or banana skins might emerge. I would rather be open and honest with members and the people and say we should not allow anything more to be dragged out of us kicking and screaming. If we find anything else and if any other issues arise we believe should be in the public domain as we begin to examine how to pick ourselves up and move forward, I will not allow myself to appear before people again only to have them ask why they were not told about it.

I will allow each questioner two minutes because we are running over time. I will warn each member towards the end of his or her contribution.

I will be as brief as possible. I have five questions, which I will ask while fully recognising the independence, importance and integrity of the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, which has a crucial oversight role in terms of public service and security. The first point concerns the specific allegations, as made in the newspaper. The second concerns the role of the three-person commission. The third concerns the security status as of now, the fourth is on the anomalies and the fifth is on the Minister’s meeting. I will ask two questions first and then the remaining three. We will get through them very quickly that way.

On the specific allegations in the newspaper, the article states a speakerphone upstairs was bugged and that a test of a line confirmed the phone was being used to eavesdrop. Could the commissioner comment on these specific allegations, having regard to his statement to the committee that while he regarded activity as being suspicious, it did not meet the threshold of an offence? Perhaps he will explain to the committee what threshold he applies in terms of reporting or otherwise.

Mr. Simon O'Brien

We are in the hands of what I am told by security experts. That test was not repeated although we tried to repeat it to see whether we would get the same response. With any security issue, there can be tests resulting in false positives and tests in respect of which one may be relying on someone else. Who knows? Even the security firm itself could have some thoughts on it. I have thought about every single aspect. Coming on the back of that, the fact that we could find in our inquiries no specific or detailed evidence of what line may have phoned in made it a very difficult test. It is absolutely right that the security experts have a view. That, on its own, could suggest an offence but I believe it was a case of very strong suspicion, probably stronger than that pertaining to some of the other threats, and probably harder to explain away. However, it was my judgment that I could not think that met the threshold of an offence being committed by any other person or agent.

I just want to deal with anomalies 2 and 3, as reported. I refer to the conference call telephone in Mr. O'Brien's office and to dealing with the threshold, as outlined by him. How does his suspicion tally with the comments of Mr. FitzGerald last night on television? He stated the chance of the occurrence being benign or having happened by chance was between remote and zero. Assuming he held and still holds that belief, it is confirmation of covert surveillance. How does Mr. O'Brien respond to that?

Mr. Kieran FitzGerald

The Deputy referred to my belief and comments yesterday evening. I was relying at that time entirely on the report received by us from the experts. It was their judgment, not mine, that the possibility of explaining this away as a coincidence or happenstance, for example, was close to zero.

Is it not necessarily Mr. FitzGerald's view now? Is it the view of the commission?

Mr. Kieran FitzGerald

I am just saying that is the view we received from the experts. I would not set myself up to try to second-guess the experts. I do not have the expertise and can rely only on their view. I still hold to the view I expressed and take it very seriously. I have no reason to walk away and ignore it; it would be unwise to do so.

Mr. Simon O'Brien

In terms of where we are now, it happened once. As to the chance of it happening benignly, as per what Mr. FitzGerald and the security experts have said, it is on a higher level of suspicion. I would still say there is a very small chance that this could be some innocent telephone caller coming in, and for reasons of thoughtfulness as to whether that could meet the threshold of an offence, on the evidence I would almost err on the side of not going down that thought process. If that sounds convoluted, there is a point at which one must ask when that threshold would have been met. Had that test been repeated, and had we found it again, that might have indicated an offence in my mind. It has not.

The specific matter of Mr. O'Brien's mind leads me to the next question. The GSOC is something of a triumvirate. Is the commission at one with regard to the sequence of events? Were the three commissioners at one in terms of calling in the UK firm as security? Where they at one in terms of their belief that something was awry? Did they all have suspicions?

I note that Mr. O'Brien stated in his contribution that a decision not to report was one that was made by him as chairman. Having regard to the importance of it, did Mr. O'Brien not believe that he should consult the other commissioners?

Before Mr. O'Brien answers, Deputy Flanagan's time is almost up. Does he want to avail of one more question?

I have four minutes. I thought I had ten minutes.

No; it is two minutes.

No. This is the Deputy's final question.

On the matter of the third anomaly, the UK 3G network, many of the commission's staff, Mr. O'Brien included, reside in the United Kingdom. Does anybody on the staff engage in any work practices outside the office or have recourse to any mobile phones within the United Kingdom? It would strike me that Mr. O'Brien, as somebody who resides in the United Kingdom, would have a UK phone.

Mr. Simon O'Brien

I will deal with the last one first. I do not have a UK phone.

In terms of events, I predicate this response upon the fact the relationship I have with my two colleagues sitting on either side of me is an excellent one. The way in which we do our business and come to our decisions has been proven to be very good, and we have discussed this before. Within this particular set of events, it became very difficult for us to have a properly functioning governance structure around this investigation. I bring it back to this: that because of the threats that were identified to us, we completely disallowed ourselves any use of mobile telephony in looking at, talking about, or having any text data or data about this investigation. We disallowed ourselves any meetings around a normal meeting table, either in my office or elsewhere. We ended up having to keep it so tight that we were meeting in cafés in Capel Street to discuss this, because the security firms told us clearly of the threats to mobile phones with quite low technology.

We have had discussions together. There has been some learning on our part in relation to the decision-making, which was difficult. I will let my colleagues speak but, even if we just look at the sort of area we get ourselves into in terms of governance of this investigation, my colleagues on either side of me have no memory and I do not think I have shown them the final report on this matter. However, that was just before Christmas. For them, some of these issues have felt as though we were running in a different place. We have had discussions about this. That is why I want to make it very clear that, certainly, in relation to the reporting structures, I must take that responsibility upon myself. My colleagues would not have been involved in that.

Deputy Ó Snodaigh is next.

I thank the witnesses for coming in. They have tried to persuade us or impress upon us that no event triggered their decision in 2012 to have a sweep of their offices. I am not convinced. Nor am I convinced that nothing happened in 2013 to precipitate a repeat of that sweep.

What was found in the sweep in 2012? If nothing was found, it points to incompetence by the company that the commission hired, which has not been named despite its being out of business. I presume the company made a report, which the commission has somewhere. The commission needs to keep it secret in case it gets printed next Sunday.

Was it that the commission's second sweep, in 2013, was triggered by something in the first one, or why was there a need to repeat the sweep? The Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission was set up in 2007. As far as I know, from what they have put on the record, only two sweeps of the offices happened and only since this commission came into being, and the previous commission did not carry out such a detailed security measure.

I have a question on the secret report others have mentioned. Mr. O'Brien has stated that he is trying to put it on the record before it comes out, possibly in the media. Has the commission given a copy of the secret report to the Minister and to An Garda Síochána? Will they divulge it publicly, even with redacted parts, prior to its being printed in the newspaper so that they can get the full extent on the record at their bidding rather than that of a journalist?

We should seek a response.

I will just finish.

Go ahead.

Have they made any attempt to contact the journalist who published this story to allow them provide an answer with regard to some of the parts of the document which, they have stated, will be misrepresentative of the decision they took in the first place to have a sweep?

Mr. Carmel Foley

I will answer the first part of the question because I was a member of the first commission. The first sweep was carried out in 2007. That was a decision of the first commission as a matter of good practice. In setting up an organisation and in acquiring a premises, we carried out a sweep at that time in 2007. That was the first one.

Mr. Simon O'Brien

There is an indication that threat one may well have been within the building at that time - that it was a piece of our own kit. It was not necessarily the piece of kit; it was the way it was behaving. We picked it up behaving in a certain manner. Because we wanted to test the provenance and the likelihood of this threat, we kept it under surveillance by another electronic device that merely looked at when it would come on and go off. Sometimes it would come on at 1.20 a.m. and go off at 1.40 a.m. and other times it would come on at 7 o'clock in the morning and go off at 11 o'clock. It was completely random. There is an issue with regard to that. I would not say the first company was in any way incompetent.

In relation to the report to the Minister, after a long and detailed briefing with the Minister on Monday, we furnished him with one report. It is not and never has been the behaviour of this commission to release reports under section 101 by designated officers.

The only time we let those go is to the Director of Public Prosecutions. We have been in discussions with the Minister and his officials to the effect that we will try to give them a redacted copy. That is the reason, for the sense of clarity, if - as I suspect - the report is in the public domain and we have been seen as trying to furnish to the Minister some form of redacted copy of it, one again may believe public confidence may be damaged in the process. Consequently, we are very clear that the report will be retained by us. We will have it and, in many ways, as we go forward and more potentially comes out, if certain statements are repeated, we will know what report is out there and that might start to narrow down where we should look as to how it may have been released.

I thank Mr. O'Brien. I also have a few technical questions. Was the sweep confined to the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission's building or was there a further examination of Mr. O'Brien's own home or his personal mobile phone? If Mr. O'Brien perceived a threat against the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, surely he would also examine his own telephones or telecommunications at home. He also mentioned that the sweep had been carried out at night time. Modern technology suggests most of the transmission in eavesdropping can be carried out in bursts. One need not wait until evening time, as it can be carried out during the day and can hide among all of the other telecommunications traffic within an office. Consequently, performing sweeps at night often will not disclose any traffic. Has there been a suggestion that GSOC might carry out a sweep of the office while it is active, now that this matter is in the public domain and, presumably, everyone in the office is aware of it? GSOC might then find other potential threats.

On a related matter in respect of the third threat, Mr. O'Brien stated the level of technology involved was only available to Government agencies. That suggests an increased threat over and beyond that posed by an individual. There are questions as to the type of equipment that would be required to present that level of threat. Was it a piece of equipment that could be converted for use on the United Kingdom's 3G mobile network and could be switched to some of the other mobile networks in Ireland? In this day and age most equipment is easily convertible to capture whatever network is in use in an area.

The Deputy should note that whenever the chairman concludes his response, his time will be up. Does he wish to ask one more question?

My final question is on a different matter, as I was trying to group them separately. Mr. O'Brien has ruled out categorically An Garda Síochána misconduct. How can he do this, or how can he rule out anyone, if he does not know from where or whom the threat came?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

I will let Mr. FitzGerald in first for a correction.

Mr. Kieran FitzGerald

It is just a small correction. The chairman of the commission stated that we might provide the Minister with a redacted copy of our section 101 report. In fact, we are drawing up a report for the Minister. It will not be a redacted copy, as we do not do redacted copies of our section 101 report. It is a legal point and an important point to make, just to correct the record of the committee meeting.

Mr. Simon O'Brien

On the issue of the night-time sweep, it really was just about us undertaking a surveillance sweep within our building without our staff knowing about it and with far greater access to parts of the building without being obliged to cause disruption to staff members.

In terms of the third threat, I have not said that. In the security company's expert opinion, it would state it was a device that was only available to Government agencies. I do not have the level of expert advice to know if that is right or wrong. I have some knowledge of this type of kit and suspect it probably could be switched from the UK to others. As I have stated previously, I do not have a UK mobile phone, but we had UK operatives who were operating in our building at the time.

My final question pertained to how Mr. O'Brien had categorically ruled out An Garda Síochána misconduct. I do not know how he can rule out categorically any agency in Ireland or elsewhere or any individual because GSOC has been unable to identify from whom or where the threat came.

Mr. Simon O'Brien

I think I stated we had suspicious activity that I do not believe has gone to the threshold of an offence. If I do not have an offence, I do not have anyone to accuse.

I again welcome the commissioners. Mention was made of Inspector Clouseau, but it is far more serious than that. The picture painted by the chairman, Mr. O'Brien, was almost like Graham Greene's 1949 film, "The Third Man". I say this with deference to Ms Foley.

I wish to set a context in respect of some of the issues involved. What is the total staff complement within GSOC? Do all staff members come under the provisions of the Official Secrets Act? How many of GSOC's staff are seconded from An Garda Síochána? Does GSOC occupy the entire building from which it works?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

We have 85 staff. We have two seconded members, both of whom are superintendents. We occupy the entire building.

Do all staff come under the provisions of the Official Secrets Act?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

All staff, as part of their joining, will have signed the Official Secrets Act, as well as other codes of standards and ethics.

Does Mr. O'Brien think the leaking of the secret document to which he referred constitutes an offence?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

If proved.

Has GSOC taken steps in this regard? Mr. O'Brien should outline the next steps.

Mr. Simon O'Brien

As I stated, we are launching an investigation and it will move on. We are in an ongoing investigation and I must keep comments above this to a complete minimum.

It is an in-house investigation.

As for the equipment used, who owns the Wi-Fi device? Is it still in the possession of GSOC? Does GSOC intend to have it go under a more forensic examination to ascertain whether further evidence can be extracted from it to further its own investigations?

On the second threat, members have been told that the phone instrument or the conference phone gave a reaction to a test signal. Was this the correct signal intended to show that the telephone line was being monitored? What was the interpretation of the expert company of that test?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

We own the Wi-Fi device. We have it retained evidentially. There is a possibility - if anyone else can assist us now - of examining the device, to which we would be quite open.

In respect of the second threat, again, we are obviously in the hands of what the security company tells us. We have already talked about the results of that test and the probability and the reason it was conducted.

The company suggested there was a surveillance attempt.

Mr. Simon O'Brien

All of these issues would indicate there was some form of surveillance. It is a case of what level of surveillance it is and whether there can be any innocent explanation for it or whether it can be explained away. As I stated, if the test signal was given, there could be a chance it was some other thing. Even if we say a figure of 99%, let us consider what if the 1% had happened. While we repeated the test, we did not get the same result again.

The press release that the GSOC issued this week went to great lengths to exonerate An Garda Síochána, but mentioning it in the press release almost had the opposite effect. Did Mr. O'Brien consult with An Garda Síochána before he issued that press release? That is referred to in the protocols that the GSOC agreed last September.

Mr. Kieran FitzGerald

If the Deputy does not mind, I will take that question. We did not consult with the Garda Síochána before that. It is not a matter that is necessarily referred to in the protocols or at least covered by the protocols. Certain matters are, but that would not be one that would fall within the protocols as something we would discuss on an inter-agency basis before we would take that kind of action. The only time we would ever consult about something like a press release or a public statement would be on investigations where we have joint jurisdiction and where both agencies might be investigating an incident, and both have legitimate reasons to be involved, and we may need to share certain things and be careful, but this was not one of those.

In terms of what the Deputy calls the exoneration of the Garda Síochána, I would not use the word "exoneration" because it has specific connotations. What we did say was that no such evidence to point to the Garda was disclosed. The Deputy can call that exoneration if he wishes, but it is not the same as categorically ruling in or categorically ruling out. It was definitely included to try to allay public concern because of the danger of people simply adding two and two together and getting five. As the Deputy said, it did not have the desired effect. I tried to explain it publicly yesterday evening again, and we hope that it has been understood at this stage in the proper manner.

Before I call Deputy Harrington to ask what will be his last question, because the time has elapsed, I want to say that the three commissioners can respond; it is not expected that the chairman should do so. It is fine for whoever is the most appropriate to deal with the question to respond. I want to reassure the witnesses on that. I understand Deputy Harrington has four minutes remaining; he has been snappy asking his questions.

I thank the Chairman. I will conclude shortly. Where he believes an offence may have occurred, will Mr. O'Brien outline the next step GSOC intends to take?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

Had we got to that threshold and had it been in any way indicated that it might have been a member of An Garda Síochána, I would have gone straight to the Minister for Justice and Equality and reported my concerns, and we would then have taken it from there. Had we had indications that the surveillance had come from another party and had that party been identified, I would have gone to the Garda Commissioner and passed on the investigation to An Garda Síochána.

And on the leak of the secret document.

Mr. Simon O'Brien

We are at an early stage on that. Again, I do not want to comment, but there are options for us in the way we investigate that.

Finally, is the chairman or any of the member of the commission aware of any other attempt to interfere with or subvert the work of the commission or any of its officials where that could be reasonably interpreted as an offence?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

We need to be very clear. We were looking for specific security threats in terms of the physical security of the buildings and the issues of capability against mobile telephony. It is a lesson for us all, and we have had to put out a number of messages internally to our staff colleagues, that it can be very unhelpful and damaging to release any information to unauthorised third parties, be that through conversations or otherwise. It can also be an issue of real concern if people are careless with people's information by allowing it to exit the building, dropping it or leaving it for others to see. We have had to deal with flows of information and, to come back to where I started, in an information age - we currently have all sorts of ways of accessing information, and it is a vital resource that some may even pay money for - we have had to make that very clear, because in the very recent past it seemed to me that information that was known only to a few people inside our organisation suddenly appeared within newspapers' newsprint. We have had to remind our own staff, therefore, about their responsibilities.

The next speaker is Deputy Michael Kitt.

I would like to welcome the commissioners and recognise their independence also.

Have routine security checks been carried out in the past other than the security check that revealed three anomalies? If those previous security checks revealed anomalies, what action was taken on foot of that?

Regarding meetings the commissioners would have with the Minister, the Garda Commissioner and the Secretary General, to name three, do they take place regularly? Mr. O'Brien may not be able to answer this question, but would he inform people such as that of security concerns or checks?

Mr. O'Brien spoke about referring matters to the Minister. Did he take legal advice on that prior to not referring the matter to the Minister?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

The ministerial meetings happen as and when they are required. I have met the Minister, as has the commission, on a number of occasions since we have been together over the past two years. We are an independent organisation with a body corporate; therefore, we will take certain aspects of our independence and the way we do business to us. It is not as if we have to speak to the Minister or his officials in regard to matters that we can deal with ourselves.

In terms of legal advice, I had not taken legal advice until this time in regard to the decision I took just before Christmas. Clearly, I have been taking legal advice, as has the commission, this week on the ramifications of my decision.

Is the commissioner satisfied now that GSOC's offices are entirely secure? Is he comfortable having meetings and conversations? Is there such a thing as counter-security checks in dealing with these issues? Obviously, these issues are of concern to Mr. O'Brien and to everybody, but are there steps the commissioner can take to deal with that, given the history in terms of what has gone on?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

There is key learning to be taken from this entire episode. Clearly, we are now more secure than we were previously. If the Deputy is asking if we would always have total security, we do not. That is why we have risk assessment. We look at the level of the risk that comes in and we mitigate that risk, but certainly there is learning to come out of this, and we will continue to look at our security. We are now far more conscious of the level of capability in terms of what we should and should not be saying on mobile phones. Frankly, our attitude has always been, apart from when we were dealing with this particular covert operation, that we as commissioners should not be talking about anything that we would be particularly nervous about. At times when we might be talking about confidential issues, we may use some other means of communication rather than mobile telephony.

I have to leave shortly, Chairman, but I have a final question.

No problem.

Should there be an independent inquiry?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

That will be for others to make a judgment on. It is important that since this information has come into the public domain, for the first 24 hours we were catching up with where we should go. I am confident now that both the Minister and the Garda Commissioner have all the information I could provide them with. The Deputy's questioning today of me and my colleagues is very helpful. I hope that as we put more information into the public domain, that will allay a sense of public concern. As far as I and the commission are concerned, we hope that we can move past this crisis point, learn from it and move on. The Garda Commissioner made a very kind offer about moving forward together, and we will certainly avail of that offer.

Do the witnesses accept the statement the Minister for Justice and Equality made in the Dáil yesterday that there was no definitive evidence of unauthorised surveillance of the GSOC?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

We have to accept that. There is an issue for us to say that one of the tests became quite difficult for us to accept but we have never got to the level of an offence. There are indications that made us suspect something was surveilling us. The issue of impreciseness comes from the potential that there may have been an effective surveillance operation.

The only organisation to which your press statement referred was An Garda Síochána. You have to accept that its reputation has been damaged by the inference. Have you considered any other agencies, whether State or otherwise, which could have been involved in such surveillance activities?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

If there has been any confusion about why our press statement singled out An Garda Síochána, we will learn from it. The statement was placed in the public domain to allay any sense of fear or grievance and to give an indication to the wider public and the State that we have every confidence in our relationship with the men and women of An Garda Síochána.

Do you accept that your statement raised suspicions among the public about the relationship between An Garda Síochána and the GSOC without any foundation?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

No, I do not accept that. If it is how some people interpreted the statement, that is unfortunate.

You referred to suspicious activity going to the level of an offence. Has the GSOC requested the assistance of An Garda Síochána in its internal investigation, given that it may lead to criminal prosecutions?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

I do not want to comment on discussions I had personally with the Garda Commissioner. As I noted earlier, there are options for pursuing this investigation.

In regard to the devices and the threats, I understand one was a password-protected wireless device which the GSOC bought even though it does not operate a wireless network. What was this device and why was it deemed to be a threat even though it was not connected to a wireless network?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

In our building, we operate through internal wired systems and we always considered that Wi-Fi networks present a potential threat in themselves because of how they can be used. In respect of this issue, since the time the current commission was formed we rarely used the room in which the piece of kit in question was located. I understand - no doubt Ms Foley can confirm this - the room was regularly used by the previous commission. Nearly all the business we have done since the inception of the current commission has been on the fourth floor in and around the commissioners' offices.

Potentially, any leak could have occurred before the GSOC changed its policy on the use of Wi-Fi equipment.

Mr. Simon O'Brien

There is always potential for that. The suspicious activity we identified was in that boardroom. When the electronic device was examined over a lengthy period by another piece of electric kit, it was found to be exhibiting randomness in the way it was being activated.

In regard to the report that was produced by the UK company, you stated that it indicated that such surveillance may have originated with An Garda Síochána and, if so, a member of An Garda Síochána may have committed an offence or behaved in a manner that justified disciplinary proceedings. Did you at any stage think this was a matter that should have been referred to the Garda Commissioner, even outside of the Minister for Justice and Equality?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

I do not think that is a credible way to proceed. We are a State investigative body. As my colleague, Mr. Kieran FitzGerald, stated on "Prime Time" last night, it would almost be ludicrous to ask the Garda to conduct an investigation of an activity that may have involved one of its members. I was clear that if we suspected that an agent or other individual may have been involved in a form of surveillance that was erring towards an offence, that was something I would refer immediately to the Garda Commissioner.

You accept the statement by the Minister that there is no evidence to suggest unauthorised surveillance of his offices by An Garda Síochána. How does that tally with a suggestion that the idea of bringing the issue to the Garda was ludicrous?

Mr. Kieran FitzGerald

There is no definitive evidence, rather than there being absolutely none. The Minister's statement, which may have been based on a briefing we provided to him, indicated there was no definitive evidence. We have explained the difficulty placed on everybody by the fact that explanations of this nature leave unanswered questions at their tail end. There is a certain degree of inconclusiveness about the matter and that presents us with a difficulty. It is a rational conclusion, however, that there is no definitive evidence. On that basis, and returning to the statement we issued to allay public concerns, no evidence of any Garda misconduct was disclosed. That was misinterpreted, but we have tried-----

Do you accept that the fact that you are now introducing the word "definitive" cuts to the heart of the reason we are here? Does the GSOC still suspect that authorised or unauthorised surveillance was conducted on its premises or equipment by members of An Garda Síochána?

Mr. Kieran FitzGerald

We have carried out a very thorough investigation and hired the best experts we could find. At the close of that investigation, we have no evidence to proceed on that basis.

Can I take it that there was at no point any surveillance, authorised or otherwise, by An Garda Síochána of the GSOC's premises or equipment?

Mr. Kieran FitzGerald

The Deputy can take it that there is no definitive evidence to point towards Garda misconduct. That was the outcome of the investigation.

In regard to the report, the specialist firm indicated that the level of technology involved was only available to Government agencies. How certain is Mr. O'Brien of that statement?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

I am only as certain of that statement as I am of the credibility of the firm that put it to us. The technical reports indicated that it was a credible firm. It had been employed by a sister agency in the UK and, as I noted in my opening statement, we were at the outside edge of our own technical competence and we relied on the expert advice and activity of this firm of security experts.

Did the GSOC verify that with any other agency?

The Deputy can ask one additional question. His time has elapsed.

Was the statement verified by any other agency? Do the witnesses accept that, based on what has happened and the manner in which it was reported, the matter has been an unseemly mess from start to finish in terms of communication and how it was dealt with? Do they think appearing on "Prime Time" in advance of their coming before this committee to answer questions was the most appropriate way to air these matters publicly, or should this have been the first forum to discuss these matters?

Mr. Kieran FitzGerald

I think the Deputy's question is addressed to me, given that I was the individual who appeared on "Prime Time" last night. It was our intention to appear before this committee and that is what we told the various media outlets that contacted us. However, such was the nature of the public and political discourse yesterday evening that we felt, unfortunately, that we had to make a public intervention. The circumstances warranted a change of approach.

Deputy Séamus Kirk

I join with the Chairman in welcoming the GSOC personnel here today. I have a number of questions and I realise that much ground has been covered. How long did the security sweep take and over what period of time was it carried out? What kind of Wi-Fi device was it? Perhaps Mr. O'Brien can elaborate on that. Was it a router and what exactly was the potential of the device that was found? How many telephone lines are connected to GSOC's headquarters? Where is the suspicious equipment stored now? Were a public inquiry to be held, would that equipment be presented to the inquiry?

We will take those questions first and I will let the Deputy back in again. They are fairly straightforward questions.

Mr. Simon O'Brien

I am told that there are 27 telephone lines at GSOC HQ. We have the equipment stored and it is evidentially sound. The Wi-Fi device was in a media console and it allowed us to do certain things with that media console. As I said, however, we have not used that room from the inception of this commission. I do not think I have ever used that particular kit myself at all.

I think that answers all the Deputy's questions unless I have missed one.

Deputy Séamus Kirk

What is the surveillance know-how among the staff of GSOC? Would personnel in the organisation - I think Mr. O'Brien said there were 85 staff members - be involved in covert operations where surveillance would be required?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

The answer to that is "No". We would not normally conduct covert operations. In fact, the way we proceed with our investigations is to ensure that, mostly at an early stage, people know that an investigation has commenced. It is not permitted for us in law to undertake those particular operations on a regular basis.

Deputy Séamus Kirk

The Minister for Justice and Equality has overall political responsibility for security in the State. How concerned should he be at this point having regard to the issues that arose from the tabling of this report, either unintentionally or intentionally? What measures should the Minister for Justice and Equality put in place to deal with a circumstance where these issues might arise again?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

It is certainly not for me to advise on what a Minister should be doing. We are where we are at this particular point. It is important that we move forward from where we are, while learning from the process upon which we have engaged. Our organisation has certainly learned from it. I was pleased to have a conversation with the Garda Commissioner to let us try to move on past this particular crisis.

Perhaps Mr. O'Brien could clarify something. I know that at the moment he cannot definitively say whether surveillance took place, but it is described as technical or electronic anomalies. Would the possible surveillance or interference we are talking about be done remotely, outside the building, or would somebody have to physically enter the building to do it?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

In terms of what we found on this particular security sweep, we had both external and internal threats. When I say "internal threats" one could possibly describe them all as external threats, if it is something from outside that is trying to connect to a Wi-Fi router inside our building. Not only did we look at and find some suspicious indications but we also asked very clear questions about what capability could be ranged against us in terms of mobile telephony. There are a number of aspects of that security sweep that we addressed. While these suspicious issues would have arisen, this was a full sweep of our building and it was a well-executed operation.

My understanding is that Mr. O'Brien might mainly be looking at something happening remotely that would activate a device or a phone call. Obviously, the biggest security breach at the moment is the release of information on a confidential report to the press. Aside from that internal security threat, outside the activation of devices, this was all GSOC's own equipment. There is no suggestion otherwise. As Mr. O'Brien said, things have moved along from a technological point of view and these devices would concern remote surveillance. Would that be a fair summary?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

We have to recognise that as technology moves forward, as much as we all rely on and enjoy the mobile telephony we have all become used to, that comes with a threat and a risk. On a constant basis we will need to update our risk assessment process in a dynamic way. At various times the risks will be higher or lower but we must try to mitigate them.

I appreciate that but I do not think Mr. O'Brien has answered the question. I want to know if it is ruled out entirely that that could be done inside. Alternatively, could it be some surveillance operating from outside without a physical presence or a physical device required inside the premises?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

Without a doubt, we have now learned about the ability of people to be outside the building, both in terms of mobile telephony and other indications. I referred earlier to the terminology of bugs, which is probably old-fashioned technology now, whereby anything has to be laid down.

Therefore, Mr. O'Brien is not ruling on whether it is inside or outside. He cannot answer the question definitively.

Mr. Simon O'Brien

The threats can come from inside or outside.

I am talking about this particular case, arising from the three anomalies that were found. On that basis, what is Mr. O'Brien's deduction?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

If we take them in order, without a doubt, if we are talking about a telephone line that has a connection both internally and externally, the indication might be that something was coming in from the outside if the phone rang.

In terms of the Wi-Fi router, the indications are that while the piece of kit was our own and was housed within our own building, its activity was apparently connecting outside. Maybe something was calling upon it to connect.

In terms of the other last threat, clearly that would seem to indicate that it was outside the building. However, we could not definitively say whether that was aimed at our building.

Ms Carmel Foley

Could I clarify something concerning access to our building? The question was asked earlier whether we had the entire building. In fact, we have a building with our own entrance but on the ground floor there is a convenience store. It does not appear to be internal to our building. Its entrance is on Capel Street, while our entrance is on Abbey Street. For the sake of total clarity, however, when it was mentioned earlier as to us having an entire building, we certainly do not share a floor internally with any other tenant. For the sake of clarity, on part of the ground floor of this building, separate to ourselves, is a convenience store.

That is noted and I thank Ms Foley.

Mr. O'Brien has just described the three anomalies. I note though that in the evidence he has given before this committee he has only described one of them as being where the level of technology is only available to Government agencies. I know he has stated that is from the company that he contracted to carry out the sweep of the premises. That is the company's interpretation of what happened.

Only one element of three is at Government level. That is how it was described in the paper. Is it fair to say this?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

That seems to be the opinion of the security experts.

I refer to the decision on 8 October 2013 to launch the public interest investigation. GSOC launched that investigation on the basis that such surveillance might have originated in the Garda Síochána and that, if that was the case, a member of the Garda Síochána might have committed an offence. That was on 8 October 2013, but at that stage only two threats had been identified and neither of them was identified as using technology or ICT know-how available only at Government level. Subsequent to this, GSOC identified threat No. 3 between 19 and 20 October 2013. I wonder about the proportionality of GSOC's decision to launch a public interest investigation. Threats No. 1 and No. 2, the Wi-Fi device and the issue with the phone, are not classified as something one would only expect a Government agency to have the capability of doing. Anyone could have done this. For all sorts of weird and wonderful reasons, people may want to hack ICT and computers of Government agencies, Departments and Members in Leinster House. On the basis of these threads, GSOC made a decision to invoke a public interest investigation procedure to examine the Garda Síochána. The evidence available at the time, from what the witnesses have told us, seems lightweight to form the view that such an investigation should be instigated. This investigation requires an examination of Garda activities. Is there more to the decision to launch these investigations of these threats? Is there another reason a sweep was made at this time other than the generality described to us? It is open to that suggestion.

When the GSOC chairman responds, the Deputy's time will have elapsed. Does she have one more short question?

I welcome the improvement in communication between GSOC and the Garda Commissioner. It is important that the relationship is strengthened and moves in that direction. There is the suggestion GSOC does not trust the Minister and that is why it did not go to him. Will Mr. O'Brien clarify that this is not the case and that he does trust the Minister and has confidence in him? Can he unequivocally state there is no dissatisfaction in his dealings with the Minister, either in the past or in the current situation?

I think Mr. O'Brien has responded definitively to the last question, but he may wish to take the option to do so again.

Mr. Simon O'Brien

I have every confidence in our relationship with the Minister. In meetings with the Minister he completely respects the impartiality and independence of our office and this has nothing to do with me having a lack of trust in the Minister for Justice and Equality of the State. I was very clear when I met him and said it publicly that I regretted the decision not to inform him.

The Deputy is correct that the relationship with the Garda Commissioner is very important. I hope we can get to the other side of this crisis very quickly.

In terms of my decision-making, it was not predicated on whether the threat was at Government level or not. One must just think through what came to my attention following a security sweep which I had not expected to turn up anything. I came in on a Tuesday morning when the paperwork was back to find that these indications were coming together, albeit they were suspicions. We can call one of them an electronic anomaly in a boardroom on one floor of the building and another an electronic anomaly in my office. That feels quite problematic and requires further investigation. It requires us to quickly get to the bottom of what the threats are, where they come from and how to neutralise, manage or otherwise investigate them further to see who might be behind such suspected activity.

Does Mr. O'Brien feel it was sufficient, on the basis of the two identified threats, to form an opinion that an offence might have been committed and pursue a public interest investigation against the Garda Síochána?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

Certainly, I was in communication with the acting deputy director, Ray Leonard, and we discussed this. There are devolved powers and we were very much of the view that the threshold, which is quite low in terms of opening an investigation, was satisfied and met. We proceeded on that basis.

The commissioners came before us last July in respect of their concerns about co-operation with GSOC investigations by senior management of the Garda Síochána. Protocols have been in place since. I am particularly interested in the public interest investigation conducted by GSOC. Am I correct that it is a public interest investigation, without naming individuals, into reports that a convicted international drug trafficker had faced a number of charges in October 2005 in connection with the seizure of €1.7 million worth of cocaine and heroin at a location I will not mention? A number of years later the charges were dropped without explanation. I want to confirm that the public interest investigation concerned that matter.

Mr. Kieran FitzGerald

I am not entirely sure, but if the Chairman is referring to sensitive investigations to which we may have referred, that is one of several public interest investigations we have undertaken.

With regard to that investigation, one of the issues investigated by GSOC led to it reporting that it had profound difficulties for a number of years in getting co-operation from senior management in the Garda Síochána in that investigation. Will Mr. FitzGerald take us through some of the difficulties in respect of time limits and getting documentation?

Mr. Kieran FitzGerald

As that was thoroughly rehashed the last time we were here, I will not go into too much detail. To summarise, if it is convenient for the Chairman, the difficulties we outlined concerned delays in getting information germane to the investigation from the Garda Síochána. Some of the delays ran to a considerable period of time and far too many of them, in our opinion, ran over what was in the original protocol agreement of an outer limit of 30 days to receive documents. Many of them ran much longer than this and some were considerably longer. That was the difficulty that was aired most before the committee.

Mr. FitzGerald appeared on "Prime Time" on RTE and there were a number of issues about the handling of informers in terms of the Morris tribunal that had not been learned. The issue of the Morris tribunal was central in respect of the handling of informers and the retention of contemporaneous notes. GSOC stated it had grave concerns the lessons had not been learned from the Morris tribunal. Is that correct?

Mr. Kieran FitzGerald

That is exactly correct. It is almost a quote from the report that we put before this committee at the time to the effect that we had concerns that the lessons may not have been learned.

To summarise, our concern was primarily about the governance arrangements and, in particular, record-keeping of informant-handling practices.

Does Mr. FitzGerald think it is good that the policing authority and the intelligence services are combined under one umbrella, a situation that appears to be unique to Ireland? Is that good or poor practice?

Mr. Kieran FitzGerald

Without wishing to appear to be over-evasive that is a matter for those who design the State and justice infrastructure. It is a matter for the Members and the Houses. Our job is to investigate any difficulties that might arise with regard to the behaviour of gardaí in exercising the lawful duties that the legislators give them.

These were matters of such public interest that GSOC took it upon itself – as it has the right to do under law – to investigate them. It took four years to complete the investigation. Am I right in saying that it took so long because of the profound delays in getting co-operation on this matter of huge public interest from senior management of An Garda Síochána? GSOC never received one document. Is that correct?

Mr. Kieran FitzGerald

As we outlined in the report and the last time we were here, it took just over four years. It was always going to take a while. It was a complex, difficult investigation. It was going to take some time anyway but that it took such a considerable length of time was certainly in no small part due to the difficulties we had in retrieving information from the Garda.

Mr. FitzGerald said last night that the decision to bring in a security sweep of the GSOC premises happened around a time when sensitive investigations were taking place. Can I confirm that GSOC was completing the investigation of these matters at the time it was thinking of doing the security sweep of its premises?

Mr. Kieran FitzGerald

No. They were not exactly contemporaneous. We completed that investigation in May of last year. I cannot remember the exact date. We submitted a special report to the Oireachtas, through the Minister, also in May. We appeared before this committee on, I think, 3 July. The security issues would have come after that.

Are any of the persons under investigation in this special investigation currently in a senior position of any kind in An Garda Síochána?

Mr. Kieran FitzGerald

I am not sure I understand the question.

In regard to the public interest investigation can I confirm whether any of the persons involved in the array of An Garda Síochána or intelligence services, or whatever, are currently in a senior position in An Garda Síochána?

Mr. Kieran FitzGerald

Without wishing to appear evasive, it would be quite unfair of us to address the Chairman’s question. The bottom line of that investigation is that had there been an offence or even disciplinary misconduct at a lower level by any member, senior or junior, we would have brought it to the appropriate authority at that time. As it was, we submitted a file to the Director of Public Prosecutions, DPP, who directed no prosecution. There the matter rests.

I am not wrong in the question I am asking.

Mr. Kieran FitzGerald

I would not be prepared to discuss it because I think it is very much a confidential matter and confidentiality is at the heart of this discussion today.

I accept that.

Mr. Kieran FitzGerald

This is for fair reasons. Just because a person would come under suspicion or into question, or have to answer a question around an investigation, does not mean that he or she should be named afterwards if he or she has been found guilty.

I accept that. GSOC then contacted its sister organisation in Britain, which it is perfectly entitled to do. I know that the Ombudsman in Ireland, whether that was Emily O’Reilly, or now, Peter Tyndall, co-operates with her or his European counterparts regularly. GSOC sought advice on a high-quality security consultancy, one of the best international standard, as I think Mr. FitzGerald said last night. The fact that GSOC sought an international, top-quality operation suggests that it had profound fears, not small or slight fears, but serious fears about the security threat. Is that a fair assessment?

Mr. Kieran FitzGerald

Any threat to our security is serious and is taken and considered seriously. We thought about the firm that did the original sweep in 2007, which was not available to do this. Naturally, I think it would be remiss of us not to look for the best we could get and afford in the circumstances where we were undertaking such a sweep of our building.

Mr. FitzGerald has talked about the government-level technology. That is of concern to many citizens. We follow the reports of surveillance and monitoring of citizens and recently there have been many revelations and whistleblowers emerging internationally, so people are beyond being shocked. Is it Mr. FitzGerald’s opinion that the issues identified by the security consultancy company were of the type that the ordinary criminal gang in Dublin, or that type of operation, or a journalist, could be involved in, or does he believe that its sophistication suggested it came from government level, if it was the case?

Mr. Kieran FitzGerald

The report presented to us by these experts says it was technology available only to government agencies in the normal run of things but there are many things lawfully available to governments and lawful agencies that may be available to other people in an unlawful context. We should bear that in mind. Technology that may be available to be deployed lawfully by government agencies is perhaps a better interpretation. I do not quite follow the Chairman’s question.

I will conclude with this. It is being said, and Mr. FitzGerald identified this last night, that because GSOC was pursuing an investigation - which it is its job to do, courageously, without fear or favour, to pursue every issue - that had very serious ramifications for people at a higher level in An Garda Síochána, it had therefore put itself in the way of surveillance and monitoring and the outcome was potentially a threat to An Garda Síochána. It is being said that may have been GSOC’s reason for bringing in a high-level security analysis to protect itself from a threat. Is that a fair or unfair assessment?

Mr. Kieran FitzGerald

It zeroes in too much on one particular investigation. We had other sensitive matters going on. Our heightened consciousness of security was primarily brought on by our strategic decision to be more public about the difficulties we were having. That is how we would have raised our own concerns and consciousness, primarily.

Thank you.

Is it possible to seek a point of clarification?

Yes of course it is.

Thank you. I wanted to ask about the comment about the file being submitted to the DPP. It sort of skated past and I was not quite clear about it.

Was this in connection with the public interest investigation? When that was completed a file was submitted to the DPP. Is that what Senator O’Keeffe wants clarified?

Mr. Kieran FitzGerald

Could I clarify? I think I know the question the Senator is about to ask. There are two public interest investigations in play here. That is the important point.

Yes, that is the confusing bit.

Mr. Kieran FitzGerald

That is the important point. The Chairman was trying to explain that as well. The one that the Chairman asked me about was one that we were here to discuss last year and in that context, most certainly not in the context of what we are talking about today, a file was submitted to the DPP. Does that address the Senator’s question?

It does. I thank Mr. FitzGerald.

The word "definitive" is defined as "conclusive, explicit, complete".

Before the Deputy continues would he please switch off his phone entirely?

I will keep going.

The Deputy should not keep going. The interference is continuing and it will impact on people's ability to hear the Deputy's question.

There is still interference and somebody's phone is not switched off. Mobile phones should be switched off entirely and not just in silent mode.

My phone is switched off completely.

Interference will have an impact on the public's ability to hear the Deputy's comments. I am trying to be helpful.

The definition of the word "definitive" is "conclusive, explicit, complete" and the word suggests that almost 100% certainty is required. The Minister is setting an impossible standard of proof as there is rarely definitive proof of anything. This is all the more true in issues of surveillance and communication. Criminal standard is beyond all reasonable doubt, which equates to approximately 70% certain, whereas civil standard is on the balance of probability, which is 51% certain and above. Definitive proof would surely be much higher than these two standards used by the courts. The Minister's very carefully worded and qualified statement sets out that there was no "definitive" evidence of unauthorised technical or electronic surveillance found. He repeated that three times.

There is an apparent need for definitive proof. Was that standard of proof imposed by the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, GSOC, or the Minister? With regard to the anomaly-----

I will allow an answer before allowing the Deputy back in.

Mr. Simon O'Brien

We are going back to where we started in terms of what we are dealing with. We have suspicious activity that did not meet a threshold going towards a threat or offence. We are now in an unpleasant place as we certainly did not get to any place where we felt an offence had been committed based on what we found.

With regard to the second anomaly, Mr. Kieran FitzGerald stated last night that the chances that this anomaly with a conference call was benign or the result of a coincidence were estimated as close to zero. Was this not enough to reach the standard of definitive proof that an attempt at covert surveillance was made? The real question is who initiated it.

In light of the Minister's very carefully worded findings that there was no definitive evidence of unauthorised technical or electronic surveillance, and that databases in the office had not been compromised, has the commission received or sought unequivocal and categorical assurances from the Minister and the Garda Síochána as to whether any authorised or lawful covert surveillance has been authorised on the GSOC or any part thereof since its creation in 2007?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

With regard to the Deputy's last question, I spoke with the Garda Commissioner yesterday in a private capacity. I have no evidence in that regard and I have every confidence in An Garda Síochána. As I stated, we identified suspicious threats within our building and, having investigated those, we can find no evidence that an offence has been committed. With regard to definitive proof, I come back to my original comments. We are talking about levels of suspicions. One test had a high bar in terms of the likelihood of repeat. I say again that we repeated the test a number of times.

The witness did not confirm if the office received or sought unequivocal assurances from the Minister or the Garda Síochána on whether any authorised and lawful covert surveillance had taken place on GSOC. He has indicated that he trusts things were fine. Was the question asked of whether there was authorised surveillance initiated by either the Minister or the Garda Síochána?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

We have investigated some suspicious activity in our building and we found no evidence of an offence. I have not asked those questions. To ask those sorts of questions could be very damaging to the relationship between us, An Garda Síochána and the Minister.

I am of the opinion that if GSOC is unable to ask those questions, we certainly have a problem. GSOC has indicated that databases were not compromised but this does not exclude the possibility of data being accessed either through e-mails or bugging equipment. Will Mr. O'Brien confirm if this possibility was addressed in the UK security agency report?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

We asked the security agency to consider all aspects of our security and give an assessment of the level of threat which appeared in it. Our security reports, as I have indicated, would go through any number of aspects of the process. The more I speak about our building's security, the more vulnerable we may be. I will close down that line of questioning, if the Deputy does not mind, for the reason of security.

I should indicate that GSOC is not compelled to come before us and the delegation has come of its own volition. I asked on Monday that a delegation would come as early as possible and the earliest opportunity - our Wednesday meeting at 4 p.m. - was used. The witnesses may respond to questions as they wish, as it is their right to respond or not to a question. Up to now there has been a fairly frank exchange of information and I hope that in as much as it is possible, that will continue. The Deputy still has time for questions.

The statement of the Minister, Deputy Shatter, was incredibly careful and qualified. He confirmed only that no definitive evidence of unauthorised technical or electronic surveillance of the office was found. He did not mention what kind of evidence was found or if there was authorised or lawful surveillance in place. He did not go on record in the House to confirm this or allude to it at all. Moreover, there were phrases in his speech which qualified much of what he was saying, including "the facts as they are known to me", "as much information as I can", "no definitive evidence found", "database ... not compromised", "based on the information available to me at present", "the Garda have been subject to what appears to be a baseless innuendo" and "not in possession of the full facts".

All of this conditionality, caveats and qualifications in the Minister's knowledge and confirmation to the House means he has admitted to not being fully informed or aware of the facts surrounding these allegations. In these circumstances it is very surprising that he has no interest in setting up an independent inquiry to establish them. It is his statutory responsibility as Minister to address such issues and establish such facts. The low level of confirmation provided is surely not satisfactory for matters of State security. Should there be an independent inquiry in order to eliminate the lack of clarification on matters of suspicion and doubt? Will it be very difficult for the public to have confidence in this? It is not rocket science, and many Irish people believe that GSOC was bugged by An Garda Síochána-----

The Deputy cannot make assertions.

I did not make the assertion. I stated that many Irish people believe that.

Which is true.

Should there be an independent inquiry along the lines of what we had for the penalty points issue? If there is an independent inquiry we deal with suspicions and the fuzzy area of doubt. Do the witnesses believe an independent inquiry would strengthen GSOC, the police force and the Minister while bringing clarification to the issue? Would it put all these suspicions to bed?

The Deputy's time will have elapsed by the time the response has been given. However, he may ask another question in the time he has left.

That is all right.

Mr. Simon O'Brien

As the Chairman has correctly stated, we are here within three days of the breaking of a significant story of public interest. The members are elected Deputies and Senators of this State and I hope we have been and will continue to be as open and frank as we can as long as the examination is ongoing. We hope to give much information. We are now in a place where we are speaking of these issues because of the unauthorised leaking of a secret document. That is not a place I wanted to get to but it is where we are. We should be looking towards moving forward, rebuilding confidence in the Irish people and rebuilding any damage to the relationship between our organisation and the Garda Síochána so that we can move forward to address other very important issues in the very near future.

I thank-----

On a point of clarification, does that in effect mean that we are dealing with a situation where the ombudsman is investigating the ombudsman? How does that sit with Mr. O’Brien?

I have a question.

I am sorry but I am disallowing the question. A point of clarification can be made on a question that was not answered clearly but that is a new question.

We should hear the answer.

I am not allowing it. I call Deputy Creighton.

I welcome the witnesses and thank them for sitting through what is a long session. That is appreciated. Many of the issues have been addressed already, whether satisfactorily or not is a matter for interpretation.

In respect of the potential for more information to leak out in the coming days, perhaps next Sunday, through publication in national newspapers - Mr. O’Brien seems to think there is a strong likelihood of that – I am interested to hear whether he has any intention of sharing in more detail either with Members of the Oireachtas or with the committee, the notes to which he referred in his opening statement which verify that whatever might be leaked in terms of the motivation behind the sweeping in the first place is entirely different to what he recalls. That is most important. If Mr. O’Brien has a clear and distinctive recollection which differs from what might appear in the national media in the days ahead then at the very least it should be shared with the Oireachtas and potentially published. He referred specifically to notes in his possession. It would be in the public interest to learn what is in those notes. Should I stop and allow Mr. O’Brien to respond to the first question?

If Deputy Creighton is happy we will get a response and then she can ask another question.

Mr. Simon O'Brien

We are at a disadvantage. I can only suspect that a document that might be marked “secret” that was solely in our possession is now out in the public sphere. We should wait to see what might come forward but it is very much worthwhile to say that I can see difficulties in those documents in terms of accuracy and in terms of my thoughts and decision processes. Whether at some time in the future that will be subject to further examination by Deputies or anyone else then I will clearly always assist and come forward to provide clarity and openness in that regard.

It is like waiting for a ticking time-bomb. If Mr. O’Brien could share his clear thinking with the public and the Oireachtas it would pre-empt that and would avoid the potential for confusion, or worse, misleading the public.

The other point I wish to raise is the confusion between the leak, which is an internal matter, which no doubt the commission will pursue, and the question of surveillance. If I understand clearly what Mr. O’Brien said, we can presume that an internal person could not have carried out the surveillance on their own because of what he alluded to in his introductory remarks. He said the fact that only a State agency could have facilitated this type of surveillance makes it is impossible that one person or a number of people acting independently within the organisation could have facilitated the surveillance on their own. Is it correct to say that it would be impossible?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

I might be confused but as far as we are concerned the external security company in one part of its report had an opinion about what sort of kit might be deployed in terms of the surveillance issue. It is not our opinion as to what was being ranged against us. Whether that is one person or two people or an agency is completely unclear. In terms of internal people being involved in surveillance, it would seem from what we heard that there was an external dimension to the suspicious threats that the security company uncovered.

To clarify, in his opening remarks Mr. O’Brien said the firm indicated that this level of technology is only available to Government agencies, which would suggest that an individual could not have done it as an individual without the support of a Government agency.

Mr. Simon O'Brien

That is the particular stated opinion of the security company. Whether it is individuals or a state agency, that is the opinion of that particular report. There are capabilities out there that are in the hands of Government agencies and there are capabilities that are in the hands of private individuals. This is the world that we live in and kit that used to be only in the hands of Government agencies can be replicated. That is why debates such as this in an open public forum, while it is very important, just give more information to perhaps show that the technology race is lost.

Does Mr. O'Brien accept that the view of the specialist firm that he hired is that the technology is only available to Government agencies and therefore it is not duplicated by non-Government agencies?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

That is its view.

The Minister said yesterday in his statement that there is no evidence that surveillance had taken place. Commissioner FitzGerald said on RTE’s “Prime Time” that with regard to the conference call facility specifically, the international experts that were hired stated that the chances of that particular software not being subject to surveillance were close to zero. Does Mr. O’Brien agree that the third party report at the very least amounts to documentary evidence that surveillance had in fact taken place? It might not be admissible in terms of evidential admissibility in court to establish guilt or criminal behaviour but it does amount to evidence.

Mr. Simon O'Brien

One has to start working out that there is information that has come up in a security sweep that has been interpreted by a firm of security experts and it has given feedback to say that is its view of what it looks like. Again, I come back to my earlier point that we looked at that and tried to mitigate that particular suspicion. We made further inquiries in terms of what phone line or phone number might have come in but that got us no further. The test was repeated and the results were not replicated.

Deputy Creighton will have time for a couple of questions and then we will conclude.

I will ask two questions together. John Mooney, the journalist in question from The Sunday Times explicitly stated that certain events prompted the third security sweep. Deputy Mulherin alluded to that as well. That uncovered the external Wi-Fi shadow device. Could Mr. O’Brien confirm what those events were? On “Prime Time” Commissioner FitzGerald acknowledged that there was a heightened awareness throughout 2012 regarding certain matters that appeared in the public domain and public discourse – reference has been made to that.

Can Mr. O'Brien elaborate on what these things were? Were there other certain events? To get to the heart of the issue, what suspicions were there and what were the commission's suspicions? Were there additional suspicions of which we are not aware?

I have one final and unrelated question. Mr. O'Brien has repeatedly said today that he regrets not reporting to the Minister for Justice and Equality until after the revelation appeared in The Sunday Times. Is that regret simply as a result of the information leaking into the public domain? In other words, had it not leaked into the public domain, would he still regret it?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

I will take the last question first. This is nothing about feeling sorry after the event. The committee can see where this debate is taking us, exactly where I did not want it to go. We have legitimately investigated suspicions and threats that were turned up in a security sweep, a security sweep that had been planned for some time. It was based on risk management and risk assessment as things go forward. There were a number of aspects to why it was based on risks and why we did it at that time.

Let me take the committee back to the chronology. The Irish firm was contacted in June. That was at a period when we were far more public and high profile, a period where issues had been appearing in the media. It was a sensible way to take us forward, after quite a lengthy period of nearly 12 months when we had been quite silent on many things. I have a very clear view as to what was in my mind when I asked for the investigation to be launched under section 102. I also have a very clear mind as to what the discourse and discussion was in regard to why we engaged in a security sweep. The reason we engaged in a security sweep was that we had not had one for some time and now was a good time for that to happen, based on the fact our profile was becoming higher and the fact certain issues had been appearing in the press and we could not understand how they got there.

On a point of clarification, it is very hard to understand how Mr. O'Brien can say it was prior to the general security review, which had been contemplated two years earlier, and in the same breath refer repeatedly to information that was in the public domain and was being discussed and which was leaking out. It is a contradictory statement.

Mr. Simon O'Brien

I do not think it is contradictory at all. Risk assessment is dynamic. Events happen and events that did not happen the year before will happen the following year. That is the issue here. For the first year of the commission, we were not out in the public domain on a regular basis. We were working away quietly to try to achieve our objectives. These objectives are impartial and ensure we investigate fairly. Coming through into the second year of our commissionership, we were far more about making criticisms. That resulted in certain matters appearing in the press.

We felt that this was always something we were going to do from the get-go. We discussed it early on when we first came together as a commission and had been around the whole debate for a while. It is clear we were making contact with the old Irish firm we had engaged before. At the time, when we finally got in touch with the UK firm, it was time to do a security sweep. I was probably more surprised than anyone for the sort of suspected activity and threats to have been turned up when I came in and had the report delivered to me on a Tuesday morning.

On another point of clarification, why did the commission not look for another Irish security firm when the previous one had closed down? Why did it look for an international expert firm?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

We were obviously looking for the firm we knew. It was not a process I was involved in, but it seems quite proportionate and sensible to look elsewhere. While we would always look to support the State, we have very close contacts with our sister agencies in the Independent Police Complaints Commission, IPCC. We have regular meetings with those colleagues in regard to the training and retraining of our staff. The IPCC is an interesting group we could talk to in an independent and confidential way and the particular firm was recommended by a colleague who has had a long relationship with us over the years, through another professional investigator. Therefore, the decision was taken to engage the firm.

I would like to thank the commissioners for their presentation and for the timely fashion in which they came to meet the committee. I thank them for the work they do and acknowledge they have a very difficult job.

With regard to informing the Minister of their concerns following the checks made, has the commission previously had to inform this or previous Ministers of concerns that arose from security checks that had been carried out? Mr. O'Brien outlined in his presentation that after due consideration he decided not to inform the Minister on receipt of the report. Does he now feel that he has weakened or damaged the independence of his office due to having had to make a public expression of regret for not acting in a particular fashion? Calls have been made for an independent inquiry. Mr. O'Brien said earlier that this is a matter for others to decide. Am I correct to assume that he would be happy to co-operate with any such independent inquiry?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

We have never had any reason to inform a Minister of any other security concerns. I regret not informing him. I believe that if one gets something wrong, one should be open about it, apologise and see if things can move on. I am certainly not perfect. The one thing I would say is that if I have made a mistake, I will put my hands up and admit that mistake. Certainly, in this case I regret that we sit here today. I was only trying to do things in good faith and was very much trying to avoid the sort of public discourse in which we now find ourselves. Events have overtaken me. If anyone comes forward and wants us to assist them with an inquiry set up by this House, by elected Deputies or Ministers, we will assist that inquiry. We are at a place at the moment we very much hope to get past. We can do that and move on to the important work we need to get on with for the people in the future.

Is it custom and practice to inform the Minister of all public interest investigations the commission initiates under section 102(4), but which it did not do in this case?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

Yes.

Mr. O'Brien said in his opening statement that the commission opened the public interest investigation into An Garda Síochána on 8 October 2013. Was that investigation into the Garda body as a whole or into one or two members or a group of members? Was the Garda Commissioner informed at the time the commission had commenced that investigation?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

This investigation looks at any potential offence by a member of An Garda Síochána. It is not about An Garda Síochána as a whole. The threshold was met. The investigation is into incidents, not persons.

If the investigation was not into an individual or a body of individuals within An Garda Síochána, is it fair to say that the investigation was into the entire body of An Garda Síochána?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

We are talking about an incident rather than individuals. This is an issue that came up. We looked at our options. We believed that section 102(4) was engaged and we carried out an investigation. I have to say that if the Deputy was put in that position himself, with the level of threat involved and given that we are a State investigative body, he would also have done what we believed was the right thing to do at that time. We were trying to get to the bottom of what were ---

Was the Garda Commissioner informed?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

The Garda Commissioner was not informed.

He was not aware that this investigation was going on. Is that right?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

I informed the Minister on Monday and had a very lengthy chat with the Garda Commissioner on Tuesday. I have expressed my personal regret to both of those individuals and completely take on board that it was my decision.

Last night statements were made in the Dáil, of which I am sure Mr. O'Brien is aware. The Minister said that no evidence of unauthorised technical or electronic surveillance was found. He went on to say that it was unfortunate that An Garda Síochána has found itself during the last 48 hours the subject of what appears to be completely baseless innuendo. He added that no information has been furnished to him by GSOC suggesting that An Garda Síochána was involved in any way in what gave rise to concerns in GSOC about its security. Is it fair for us to assume that when Mr. O'Brien met the Minister to brief him earlier this week he informed him that GSOC conducted an investigation under section 102(4) into An Garda Síochána?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

I fully informed the Minister of everything that had happened regarding this particular incident and investigation. I was with the Minister and his officials for two hours and we had a very fruitful discussion. I made it clear to the Minister that everything we have done, in terms of the activities of myself and my colleagues, was done in the best of faith. We believed that with the level of suspicion and threat involved, we had to move the issue on. We opened the investigation in October and by December I had the closing report. We were very clear that this needed to be a short, sharp look at the potential threats ranged against us. We had to identify those threats and see if we could give them any provenance, namely, find out where they were coming from. If we could not do that and find evidence of an offence, we would close the investigation down and we did that very quickly.

Just to be clear because I am having difficulty ---

I am sorry to interrupt, but once the Deputy puts his remaining questions, his time will have elapsed.

I am having difficulty reconciling what the Minister said last night with what Mr. O'Brien is saying today. Mr. O'Brien has told us that when he briefed the Minister on Monday he informed him that he opened a section 102(4) investigation into An Garda Síochána. Is it the case that GSOC is now conducting an internal investigation to ascertain the source of the leak? In other words, is GSOC investigating itself? Is it GSOC's intention to continue that investigation into itself? Has it the capacity to do so or does it have any third party assisting with that investigation?

Finally, we are here today because there was a suspicion of unlawful surveillance of GSOC's offices. Is Mr. O'Brien happy that none of the current cases which are being investigated has been compromised?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

We are conducting an internal inquiry and are in the early stages of that inquiry. We are clearly looking to how that might progress and if we believe there is any other assistance we can call on, we will do so. We do not believe that the threats that have been identified - particularly the Wi-Fi repeater which was not connected to any of our internal systems - had any effect on our case work.

I now call Senator Thomas Byrne.

I apologise for my absence for part of this meeting but I had to be in the Seanad Chamber. If I raise an issue that has already been addressed, the Chairman can feel free to interrupt me.

I ask the Chairman to tell us the order in which we will be called.

The next contributor is Senator Thomas Byrne, followed by Deputies Clare Daly, Luke 'Ming' Flanagan and Thomas Pringle. The latter has indicated that he will be back shortly. This is an important meeting and I thank everyone for their co-operation. I estimate that we can conclude by approximately 8 p.m. I will try to give everybody an opportunity to speak. Deputy Timmins is scheduled to speak last but if any other ---

I will follow Deputy Pringle. Is that correct?

Yes, when he returns. I am trying to be fair. Deputies and Senators have to make speeches and cast their votes. I am trying to be fair and reasonable. I now call Senator Thomas Byrne.

If I raise something that has been raised before, I urge the Chairman to tell me. I apologise for missing the last hour of the meeting but I had to make a speech and cast a vote in the Seanad.

The Garda Síochána Act requires that GSOC should be independent in the performance of its functions. How does Mr. O'Brien's expression of regret to a Minister qualify as being independent in the performance of the commission's functions? There is no provision in the Act for GSOC representatives to express regret to anyone. GSOC must make its own decisions - be they wrong or right or simply decisions with which we disagree. The commission must be independent at all times. It seems to me, in the overall scheme of things, that this story reached the newspapers and immediately, Government sources, including the Taoiseach and the Minister for Justice and Equality, went ballistic, targeted GSOC and then, within 48 hours, we had an expression of regret. I do not see that as being consistent with the requirement under law for GSOC to be independent.

Mr. Simon O'Brien

Reflecting on my decision-making just before Christmas and the fact that a secret report is now out in the public domain, which has caused a great deal of anguish for the Irish people, not least for members of An Garda Síochána, I took that decision to apologise. I do not believe that it is wrong for me to express regret on that. I would suggest that it actually enhances independence in the sense of displaying a degree of humanity. I realised that perhaps I had not thought this through properly and had made a mistake and my apology was predicated on trying to find a way past this. The Senator thinks that has fettered our independence but I do not believe so. We have been given and enjoy a significant amount of independence to get on with the very important work we do. We hope to continue to do that work into the future.

I think the public would be happier if they found out that GSOC was investigating these matters privately in what it considered the best way of doing so. That is obviously what GSOC thought at the time; that this was the best way to deal with the matter. There has been an immediate change in attitude and I am disappointed. I am supportive of GSOC and the Garda Síochána and am not here to take sides, as some people in this debate have done, unfortunately. Mr. O'Brien recognises, as do most people, the enormously valuable work done by An Garda Síochána. I am very keen that GSOC would not be subject to political pressure but that is what I have seen in the last few days. Let us take the Director of Public Prosecutions as an example to illustrate my point. If there was a major mess up in the most vile of rape cases, the DPP would never say "Sorry". The DPP never expresses regret. That might be ---

I am sorry, Senator Byrne, but we need questions rather than commentary.

The worst mess up in the office of the DPP - I cannot think of any off hand - or a decision not to prosecute is never apologised for. The DPP makes decisions independently. The DPP never explains or apologises because the office cannot do so. It is not that an explanation or apology is not desirable or that we would not like to find out the reasons for the DPP's decisions but under our constitutional arrangements, offices such as that of the DPP must be independent of any pressure.

Has the commission become less independent of political and media pressure in the past week?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

I do not believe our impartiality or independence has been impugned. As the Senator said, he is impartial in debates on this matter. We are the impartial body that will examine issues involving gardaí and people to come to some form of independent and impartial position. I have taken the decisions I have taken, including that I think it is right to express regret. If anything I have done has caused us to be in this messy situation, I hope we can move past it and get on with some important work in the future.

How did Mr. O’Brien feel when he heard the Taoiseach on the media on Monday demanding that he level with the Minister for Justice and Equality, as well as stating the commission had misquoted the law as to its legal obligations? How did a commission, required by law to be independent in the performance of its duties, feel about these statements?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

The Senator might not be surprised that in the past three days we have not had much time to listen to every news media outlet.

Surely, Mr. O’Brien and the commission heard the Taoiseach?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

I do not believe the comments of the Taoiseach and others have impugned our independence. We hope to move past this place where public discourse has been so lively and get through to the other side of this issue.

The commission really needs to think seriously about how it deals with media and political pressure. Some of the political pressure was completely inappropriate, as was some of the media pressure. The commission will have to learn to live with it, however. It must also comply with the law to be independent in its functions and do the job we want it to do.

I do not think that is a question, in fairness.

I am delighted the commission is present and that there are more members present now than the last time. As conditions in the committee room are difficult, with many people now wilting, I will put my questions. They may be disjointed, but I hope they will fill in a few gaps for me.

There is a certain contradiction between the idea that the commission had always intended to carry out this sweep - a matter of routine as the Taoiseach and the Minister for Justice and Equality called it - and the idea that it was sufficiently exceptional - as they called it too - that it should have been disclosed to the Minister under section 80(5) of the Garda Síochána Act 2005. Was the previous sweep disclosed to the Minister?

Ms Carmel Foley

In the first sweep, in 2007, nothing was found to cause any concern. I imagine we did not make any special report about it.

Would a correct analysis be that the reason for the apology - or the acknowledgment of wrongdoing - was not that the commission had not informed the Minister of the sweep but that it had not informed him something had been found as a result of the sweep?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

For us to be forced into the level of public discourse that we have got ourselves into in the past three days, I feel there were decisions I had made before Christmas that put us in that space. I think it was right at the time to express my regret and I have done that. We are here now and must move on.

It is indisputable that an A list security firm did the sweep for the commission. It has been disputed by nobody that three anomalies were found on or near the commission’s premises. It is disputed by nobody that these were capable of breaching the commission’s communications security. The only fact we do not know is whether an actual breach took place. Does Mr. O’Brien agree that the evidence of this would be hard to come by, given the advanced level of technology? Is it not also the case that the one piece of indicative evidence is that on detection, it ceased to exist? Could this not indicate that the source was active on discovery regarding anomaly No. 2 and the phone call?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

As I have said before, the business of surveillance is imprecise. It is very difficult, if it has been conducted successfully, to know it has been done. We were left with several suspicious activities which we investigated. In some of our investigations we left assets in place untouched and examined them; in others, we repeated tests to see if they would be repeated. In the final test, when we tried to find some form of linkage between a couple of the threats, again we did not have anything coming back. We got to a certain place where we were operating with a lack of proper communication. It was right and proportionate to do what we did and to get out when we did.

I am not asking if Mr. O’Brien thinks it was probable that the source was active on discovery. Is it possible that it was?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

Yes, it was very possible.

In this debate there has been careful use of words by the Minister and Mr. O’Brien. There is a formula of words being repeated ad nauseam such as “no definitive evidence of unauthorised, technical or electronic surveillance.” Everyone does it by rote and it is a little eerie at this stage. Mr. O’Brien has confirmed he did not ask the Garda whether it had conducted lawful surveillance. However, it would be technically possible for the Defence Forces to also lawfully conduct surveillance. Has Mr. O’Brien asked the Minister that question?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

No.

Does the commission think it should have? We can ask him, but we do not know whether the surveillance was lawful.

Mr. Simon O'Brien

The security experts detected an external asset. They have an opinion as to its capability and the level of security it would have needed to have had. We have no idea if that particular capability was used lawfully, nor do we have an idea if it was being ranged against our building.

Language is important. Mr. O’Brien, as well as the Minister, has said there was no definitive evidence of any surveillance being conducted by An Garda Síochána. Is it not the case also that there is no definitive evidence to claim there was not?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

One can take that question both ways. It is imprecise. We had no further evidence to suggest it would be an offence. What we are left with, unfortunately, is an imprecise and incomplete picture which is unsatisfactory for everyone.

It could have been is the answer. One of the questions we will pose is how we are going to get to those answers. Reasonable people watching this will ask who credibly could it have been. Mr. O’Brien has indicated there is an internal leak in the commission to the media. Why would the media then bother having to engage in surveillance if they could get the information anyway? I do not think it is the complainant. Who has an interest in conducting surveillance on GSOC? Mr. O’Brien has said seven people had access to the commission’s secret report which he fears might end up with the media. Was the report in electronic format? Were there hard copies? Who had access to them? Was the report produced by the A list surveillance team? How could it have got the basis to the report so wrong as to contradict Mr. O’Brien’s interpretation of why he had employed it?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

We will be having an inquiry into this matter. My answers to questions might prejudice it.

I want to be open, but I must be careful of what I say. We have said enough about who might have had it. We have launched an internal inquiry. We will take it where we can go with it. If we move forward and want other assistance, we may ask for that in the future.

I am happy to have all my questions taken together and will try to be as brief as I can.

Deputy Timmins should put the three questions.

Fair enough. I acknowledge the presence of Mr. O'Brien and his staff. You have a most thankless job and you and your organisation have a very isolated position. His decision not to inform people before Christmas based on the evidence they had might have been correct, so I would not beat myself up over it if I were him. Have any GSOC members felt under threat or under surveillance at any time individually outside of this suspected surveillance of the organisation and its offices? When the sweep that uncovered the first and second threat was carried out on 23 and 27 September, should it have uncovered the threat that was discovered on 19 October, or was there a view that the third threat, the Wi-Fi instrument, was put in after 27 September? Is it possible that it was there and a full sweep was not carried out?

Threats one and two were in the conference call room, and one was in the conference phone in the chairman's office. Would the person who placed these devices have needed inside knowledge? Were they placed strategically? If I went into the office with two devices to plant, would I be able to pick the phones I needed or would I need insider knowledge to know that they were the right phones? Who would be involved in conference calls? I cannot envisage GSOC using the phones for sensitive material via a conference call. In what context would GSOC use both of those phones where the bugs were placed?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

We have no information that anyone has reported that they have felt they were under surveillance. We have gone with what was detected rather than what could have been detected. We cannot conjecture as to whether something was or was not there on that date. The security sweep was to look for identifiable threats, and these were the identifiable threats it found. It went through a range of other examinations and did not find anything else. The issue, as we have talked about in the past, is about planting things within devices. Nothing we have found here is talking about the planting of a device. Threat one was already our property. It was not about the device but about how it was acting in terms of a potential threat on the phone in my office. It has both an internal and external dimension. There was no issue about anything being placed there. It was on a desk which we use for a lot of things - a lot of teleconferencing - and it has the ability to pick up a wide range of audio from anyone speaking around it. We have found these threats, we have examined what they may mean to us and we have learned from the process.

Many organisations in this country, State and private, are subject to surveillance. It is part of the world in which we live, unfortunately. Would you suspect any internal reason someone might want to carry out surveillance of the organisation? Is there any particularly sensitive investigation you are carrying out at the moment that might provide a motive for some person or group to carry out surveillance on his office? I have no difficulty with a British or American company, or whatever, doing the sweep, but I would imagine that a number of Irish companies could have carried out the sweep on the offices. Why did you not seek an Irish company?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

In June we looked for an Irish company and it had gone out of business. As the process went on we used a firm that was known to our sister organisations that are also oversight bodies. We got the best we could find and it turned up these threats.

What about the internal and external motivation for someone to carry out surveillance on the office?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

Again, I get into the word "conjecture". When one does a risk assessment one explores what threats can be ranged against one and how those threats might come in and compromise one's internal security. That is the idea of how one does a risk-assessed security sweep of a building, system or any other issue.

We have two more contributors, Deputies Luke 'Ming' Flanagan and Pringle. That is 20 minutes and we will finish just after 8 p.m. I ask committee members to stay on as we have to convene in private session to decide our next step.

There are a number of clarifications. I appreciate the Chairman's dilemma but-----

The witnesses have been here all this time. If I open up for clarifications it could open up. Is it agreed by the committee that we do not open the floor for clarifications? We can be here only for so long. It will be almost four hours and we have had a lot of time. If the committee disagrees, I will take a ruling on that.

I seek a show of hands on whether we will allow clarifications after the next two questions.

Who will rule on clarifications? Supplementary questions are not clarifications.

If a question has been asked and it has not been answered properly, members can seek clarification. If members want to raise new issues at the end that have not been dealt with by a previous questioner, that is not clarification.

The Chairman would rule on that.

For example, if the Senator comes in after Deputy Pringle or Deputy Luke 'Ming' Flanagan, if her question is on what was in her view an unanswered question, I will allow it. I cannot allow what Deputy Charles Flanagan did earlier, unfortunately. I must be consistent in the application of the rules.

The Chairman will allow clarifications at the end, then?

What does the Senator mean by clarifications? Is it new issues?

No. I have taken notes-----

Will Senator O'Keeffe give me an example of a clarification? Does she mean she has more different questions?

No. I am talking about questions that relate to other questions that were raised but that were not answered.

I am very clear now. Senator O'Keeffe is referring to new issues. We could keep going all night, which I do not recommend.

No; they are not new issues.

I ask for a show of hands. The point of clarification should have been made when the question was put, not at the end of the session. It is unfair on Deputy Charles Flanagan and others.

I thought there would be an opportunity. I did not interrupt for that very reason. I was allowing the meeting to go on.

Does the committee feel we should continue and allow further clarifications after the next two questioners? If so, that is fine. Could we have a show of hands? Should we continue with further clarifications after the next two questioners? Two members are in favour. The question is lost.

I thank the witnesses for coming here today. What percentage of GSOC is made up of former members of the Garda Síochána?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

We did some work on our investigators recently and we have 60% to 70% independent investigators.

A question was asked earlier as to whether there is any expertise within the organisation on covert surveillance. With one third of the staff being former members of the Garda Síochána, would it not be amazing if none of them had any past experience in surveillance?

Is it one third or two thirds of the staff who are former gardaí?

Ms Carmel Foley

We have a staff of approximately 85. Unfortunately we have some vacancies. Fewer than 40 of the staff are investigators. We also have case workers, information librarians and administrative staff. Our investigative cohort is fewer than 40. Of this group, approximately five were gardaí in the past.

Has the ombudsman commission inquired as to whether any of the staff have expertise in surveillance? If one is trying to find the root of the problem these are questions which would obviously be asked. They are questions I would definitely think of asking.

Ms Carmel Foley

As former gardaí, sergeants and detectives I imagine they have the full range of policing experience. They came to our office through a competitive interview process.

So within the organisation are people with knowledge of this type of surveillance. From what I know it seems to be common knowledge there is a history of leaking to the press by members of the Garda Síochána. I am proof of it. Does this not worry the ombudsman commission? One third of its staff are former members of the Garda Síochána. The members of the public to whom I speak know there is a history of leaking. Is this not a major concern? It is amazing that former members of the Garda Síochána are investigating former colleagues. I am not trying to put a slight on any individual. Former postman should not investigate postmen or former midwives should not investigate midwives. I am not putting a slight on postmen or midwives; the problem is how will anyone see credibility in a system where former colleagues investigate the Garda.

Mr. Simon O'Brien

To be clear I have confidence in every member of our staff, as do members of the ombudsman commission. Members of staff who are former members of the Garda Síochána have been with us for many years.

Did Mr. O'Brien state he has confidence in all members of staff?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

I have confidence in all the members of staff.

Except whoever leaked.

That is an excellent comment.

Mr. Simon O'Brien

Let us see where an investigation might take us. I am also very clear that we have been very proud that during our time in the commission we have been able to bring through people with non-police backgrounds and trained them properly. They now exercise powers and conduct investigations. We have spoken about this to other oversight agencies in England, Wales and Scotland. Our record and statistics with regard to bringing people through this route has been excellent and I hope it will be seen by the Irish people as another indication of our independence.

Will GSOC respond to the four demands the Garda Commissioner made in his press statement on Monday? Will this correspondence be published? To provide background, the Taoiseach and the Minister stated yesterday that GSOC should give these answers at this committee hearing. This was obviously inappropriate of them as they cannot instruct GSOC to do anything. GSOC is not answerable to the Garda Commissioner as far as I know and it is of concern that he came out with this. It is meant to be the other way around. The Commissioner's four demands are with regard to the nature and extent of the anomalies identified by the UK security consultancy; whether these anomalies amounted to a security breach and if a criminal offence is suspected; the basis for suspicion of Garda misconduct; and whether any matters identified now require investigation by the Garda Síochána. To be quite honest I am not interested in whether the ombudsman commission answers these.

The Deputy should be asking questions.

I have questions on the issue. How can GSOC work when in public the Garda Commissioner orders it to do something? GSOC does not need to have a good, bad or indifferent relationship with the Commissioner.

We need a question and not commentary from the Deputy.

There is the question coming out of this.

Let us get to it.

GSOC does not need to have a relationship with the Commissioner. Why does it need to have a relationship with someone it could potentially investigate and why is it having private conversations with someone it could potentially investigate? Public confidence is not helped by this.

The Deputy's time will have concluded when the chairman responds so he may ask another question now if he wishes.

I am happy with that.

Mr. Simon O'Brien

I spent two hours with the Commissioner and we went through the range of issues which have arisen in this investigation. It is not seen as the head of an organisation with which we have ties and with which we need co-operation asking questions of us as an oversight agency-----

With respect, seen by whom?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

We have no problem answering the Deputy's questions today. It is right to have a relationship with the organisation we investigate. It is right this relationship is appropriate. It is right the relationship has healthy tensions, which we can see we have. We have moved forward considerably on some of the issues we have had to report to the committee in the past. In the conversation I had with the Commissioner we agreed we need to move forward pass this crisis and this is good. We have other very important work we need to get on with.

I thank the members of GSOC for being so patient. I apologise for having to step out for half an hour to attend another meeting and I ask it to be flagged if my questions have already been asked. It has been reported in a newspaper the connection of the Wi-Fi device which was compromised was traced to an IP address located in the UK. Has further investigation taken place to try to identify the source of the computer from which it came? Are there further details on this?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

Our inquiries on what the Wi-Fi device was connecting to were inconclusive as far as I am concerned. I will check this and if there is any correction I will come back to the Deputy. As far as we are concerned it behaved in a very strange way. There was evidence another external device was connecting to what purported to be a UK registered 3G link.

Did the test on the conference phone intend to elicit a response through an incoming phone call or was it completely unexpected?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

The security report mentions a signal test and states the reply to the particular phone handset was very unusual and the company felt the chances of it being a probable event was very low. As I have stated previously there may be issues of false positives. The security consultants very much suggested doing the test again. It was a very suspicious activity, but as I have stated we did not get to a threshold where an offence could be suspected.

With regard to the UK 3G network to which the IP address relates, in response to an earlier question Mr. O'Brien stated that at the time it was detected UK operatives were working in GSOC.

Who were those UK operatives? Is it possible that the 3G Wi-Fi network was an attempt to intercept their communications?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

The operatives would have been the security consultants from the UK who were in the building.

Is it possible that somebody might have been trying to find out what they were looking for?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

They had UK mobile phones with them.

It is quite possible, therefore, that the attempt to intercept their telephones was an attempt to find out what they were looking at.

Mr. Simon O'Brien

The report says that this device was searching and trying to link with UK telephones.

In deciding on 8 October 2013 to launch an investigation under the public interest provisions in the Act, would it be reasonable to assume that the witness would look at who has a motive to carry out surveillance on GSOC, who would have the means to do that and then take that direction in the investigation? Would it be reasonable to suggest that this would lead the witness to believe that An Garda Síochána would be an organisation that would have the means and the motive to carry out surveillance on GSOC?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

Of course, that is the way we would go through it in making decisions as to how we would move forward. Yes, it is implicit that An Garda Síochána would be part of a suspect group. It is also implicit that we would put other people within that group. On taking the investigation forward, had there been particular evidence to suggest that it was An Garda Síochána, we would have gone to the Minister immediately. Had it emerged that we found it was a private individual or a media organisation, I would have gone to the Garda Commissioner.

In completing or closing down the investigation after the tests from 19 November, the witness said he proceeded on the basis that these issues were not purely innocent or coincidental. He went on to say that the suspicious activity did not meet the threshold of an offence, but there was still suspicious activity that had to be investigated. The witness said at the end that he has an earnest wish that he can move on from this. Is he saying this matter is closed as far as GSOC is concerned or should it be investigated further? I believe it warrants further investigation. The idea that GSOC would be put under surveillance by anybody is very worrying and it should be investigated further. As far as GSOC is concerned, is the witness saying it is finished with this incident and wishes to move on and forget about it?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

GSOC has investigated this matter and has closed the investigation. I believe the investigation was conducted properly, professionally and proportionately, and we have now closed it.

I have two quick questions.

We must conclude.

With regard to the leak of the report or portions of it in the last couple of days, was the report from Verrimus to GSOC communicated by e-mail? Would it have been sent digitally? Was it encrypted e-mail and would it have been secure? Are e-mails and electronic communications within GSOC now encrypted and secure? Would they not have been encrypted in the past?

Mr. Simon O'Brien

We have upgraded a number of aspects of our security, but I will not go into that. Certainly, we have confidence in the areas of encryption within our systems. Of course, any communication between the security experts and us was secure.

That concludes our engagement with the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission. I thank the members of the commission, Commissioner Simon O'Brien, chairperson, Commissioner Kieran FitzGerald and Commissioner Carmel Foley, and their colleagues, for attending the meeting today and for their co-operation. We are sincerely grateful to you for appearing before the committee so quickly and for giving us more answers on this matter.

The joint committee went into private session at 8.05 p.m. and adjourned at 8.55 p.m. sine die.
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