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Joint Committee on Regional Development, Rural Affairs, Arts and the Gaeltacht debate -
Wednesday, 7 Sep 2016

Culture 2025 - Éire Ildánach: a Framework Policy to 2025 and Related Matters: Discussion

Cuirim míle fáilte roimh na finnéithe. We are delighted to have the witnesses here today. It is a sign of the importance of the sector that the Association of Artists' Representative Organisations is the first group to make a presentation to this newly formed committee. I wish to welcome the following witnesses to the meeting: Mr. David Kavanagh, Mr. Eamon Murray, Ms Birch Hamilton, Ms Rynagh O'Grady and Ms Karan O'Loughlin, representing the Association of Artists’ Representative Organisations; Mr. Eugene Downes, director of the Kilkenny Arts Festival; Ms Angela Dorgan, chief executive officer of First Music Contact; Ms Olwen Dawe, consultant and policy assistant representing the National Campaign for the Arts; Ms Barbara Galavan, chief executive officer of Screen Producers Ireland; and Ms Lesley McKimm of Newgrange Pictures. I thank the witnesses for being in attendance. When asking questions or otherwise intervening, it might be useful if people could introduce themselves.

I wish to draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I also wish to advise witnesses that the opening statement and any other documents they have submitted to the committee may be published on the committee's website after this meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

In July 2016, the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Heather Humphreys, launched Culture 2025 - Éire Ildánach: a Framework Policy to 2025. She stated that culture adds value to our lives and to communities and that everybody should have a right to participate in the cultural life of the nation. I fully endorse the Minister's words in this respect. Accordingly, I am anxious to hear the views of witnesses on how this can best be achieved and how this framework policy can best be put into operation.

Ms Rynagh O'Grady

The Association of Artists' Representative Organisations, AARO, is the first organisation to bring arts practitioners together and give them a collective voice. They are men and women from every arts discipline who have dedicated their lives to developing and honing their skills. Ireland punches way above its weight on the world stage when it comes to our creative work. Proportionately, we have won more awards than any other country, including BAFTAs, Grammys and Tonys, as well as Booker prizes and Oscars. Our work has promoted this tiny island in a way that nothing else can come close to, consequently promoting investment and tourism.

We are entertainers, educators, illuminators, healers and inspirers. We shine a light in that dark corner. We try to make sense of the madness and confusion of this world. We believe that our contribution is vital to all people. Our work is international by its nature; it is communicating. It goes from the particular to the universal. Something set in a kitchen in Connemara has resonance for a community in Cambodia.

The vast majority of arts practitioners are paupers and live from hand to mouth. Today, we want to touch on two issues and one solution. Mr. David Kavanagh will speak briefly on copyright, Ms Karan O'Loughlin on competition law, and Ms Birch Hamilton on the status of the artist.

Mr. David Kavanagh

Artists everywhere in the world are badly paid. It seems to go with the territory. We believe that they are paid significantly worse in Ireland because of inadequacies in our legislative and policy structures. This undermines the prospects for growth in the creative industries in Ireland. Earning an income from what one creates as an artist is not simply a matter of signing a contract and being paid a sum of money. It is primarily a matter of the copyright that one creates. Just as research and development in entrepreneurial companies create trademarks and patents, by exactly the same principle, artists create copyright. It is the use of that copyright throughout the life of that work that earns them an income.

In Ireland, copyright is not managed by the Department with responsibility for the arts but by the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation.

As a result, it has been the long-standing practice that European Union legislation - which would benefit artists by giving them payments for the use of their copyright - has been implemented in Ireland by statutory instrument rather than through legislation in the Houses of the Oireachtas. We believe that the result has been to significantly impoverish Irish artists. Based on European Union calculations, we believe that most artists, although it varies from one sector to another, could increase their earnings by at least 20% if they had access to the kinds of benefit that would result from the full application of European Union directives in the area of copyright, which have been inadequately implemented in Ireland by statutory instrument. We call on the Minister, hopefully encouraged by this committee, to address those eight statutory instruments and examine whether it would be possible to bring them all up to the best European Union standard. The incomes of artists would improve if we even made that fairly simple non-cost-based legislative change.

Ms Karan O'Loughlin

Our evidence is based on concerns that Government policy should ensure an environment in which artists can have a sustainable career for the duration of their working lives as artists. Mr. Kavanagh is correct when he says that copyright creates an important revenue stream. However, it must also be recognised that the bulk of income for artists arises, in the main, from the initial contract for the sale of their work. Prior to 2004, trade unions and representative organisations had the capacity to collectively bargain for freelance artists. We could negotiate minimum fees, set minimum rates and publish fee guides. Those fee guides were, by and large, adhered to by the industry. This had a twofold effect. It assisted artists in creating sustainable careers and it created fair working conditions and practices for them.

Since 2004 we have been unable to practice collective bargaining. Representative organisations are now restricted in this activity because of what we believe is the unfair application of competition law to freelance artists. This has a negative effect. It has reduced artists' incomes because a minimum floor can no longer be negotiated. It has pushed artists into higher dependence on social welfare. From our perspective it is a foolish economy, in that this kind of law creates a further burden on the Exchequer. When looking at Government policy it is important to recognise that legislation is required to free cultural workers from this inappropriate application of competition law. This would allow a situation - such as exists in the United States and parts of Europe - to create standard minimum payments for artists, thus reducing their ongoing reliance on the social protection system in the State.

Ms Birch Hamilton

As my colleagues have pointed out, there are many opportunities to support artists, involving different Government Departments. The Minister's new policy is very welcome, but at present we feel that it is short of practical proposals. There is a gap between the aspirations of the document and the reality of supporting individual creators. Artists are also innovators, storytellers, leaders and entrepreneurs. If content and the arts are at the heart of a new digital culture, then it follows that artists really are its lifeblood. The Association of Artists' Representative Organisations, AARO, is calling for a cohesive vision to take control of this agenda. AARO supports the calls for restoration of at least the level of funding for arts that prevailed before the recession. However, with regard to artists' incomes, we believe that significant improvements can be made through legislative and policy initiatives that are not completely dependent upon significant increases in State funding for the arts. AARO is calling for a cohesive initiative that would work collectively with other Government Departments to introduce a status of the artist Bill. This legislation would ensure that artists are in the best position to increase their incomes, including global income, and increase the sustainability of artists working in Ireland, which would also result in a return to the Exchequer. We ask the committee to request that the Minister support the introduction of legislation that would bring together the issues that AARO has raised today.

Ms Jo Mangan

I am the chair of the National Campaign for the Arts, NCFA. I am a theatre director and the director of Carlow Arts Festival. I am joined by my colleague Mr. Eugene Downes, director of the Kilkenny Arts Festival, Ms Angela Dorgan, CEO of First Music Contact, and Ms Olwen Dawe, consultant and policy analyst. We represent the National Campaign for the Arts in the discussion about national cultural policy.

We very much welcome the all-party approach to arts and culture and we feel there is now a huge opportunity to build a true republic of culture for all. Ms Dorgan will speak to the committee about what the NCFA is and our areas of concern. Mr. Downes will speak about our response to Culture 2025 - Éire Ildánach: a Framework Policy to 2025. It is absolutely crucial that the final published strategy have teeth and be backed up by long-term investment commitments. I hope all committee members have received our pre-budget submission in which we outline current urgent considerations for the sector.

Ms Angela Dorgan

Good afternoon. The NCFA is a voluntary organisation. We have more than 25,000 individual members and our membership includes 84 resource organisations which, combined, work with more than 100,000 artists nationally, across all arts disciplines. The theatre, film, dance and music festivals and events programmed by our members and the arts sector in Ireland are attended in larger numbers in Ireland than in the UK or Northern Ireland, and in larger numbers than the GAA championship games. The NCFA believes that if the Government truly values our culture, our arts and our artists then the course of action should be straightforward. The aims of the action would be: to get Ireland off the bottom of the arts and culture investment league in Europe by committing to an investment of 0.3% of GDP over the lifetime of this Government, which would take us halfway to the European average; to improve working and living conditions for Irish artists; to put arts at the heart of education, public policy and economic thinking through cross-cutting policy initiatives; to provide a conducive environment for public engagement in arts at all levels in order to foster inclusivity and access; and more Government thinking on the science, technology, engineering and maths, STEM, arena, which should become STEAM, including an A for "arts".

The NCFA collects and disseminates our message and its implementation through weekly update meetings and though our network of constituency groups all over the country. We invite all members of this committee, and indeed all elected representatives, to use the NCFA as a resource and to lean on us.

Mr. Eugene Downes

The National Campaign for the Arts believes that the development of a national cultural policy offers an opportunity for the citizens of Ireland to build a republic of culture one century after the Proclamation. We agree with the Government’s view that the draft document represents the beginning of a process and we look forward to contributing in that spirit to finalisation of the framework policy and to the implementation plan.

Even as a high-level framework, the draft policy document seems brief, with further expansion probably needed in a number of areas. A significant omission that concerns us is any reference to the principle of operational autonomy, or the arm’s-length principle of governance, particularly as it pertains to the relationship between the Government, State agencies and national cultural institutions.

We are also concerned that the proposed priority action of carrying out "a critical analysis of direct and indirect supports that are funding arts and cultural activity" seems to imply a review of the Arts Council, the Arts Act 2003, the Irish Film Board and the Heritage Council, among other funding agencies. We do not detect any desire among the broader arts community to reopen or unravel the basic structures for arts and cultural funding that have been painstakingly put in place.

We believe that a wide departmental review of this kind could risk diverting much time, energy and focus away from the urgent tasks of policy development, resourcing and implementation.

There are very few references in the draft to the artist, whose creative role should be at the heart of any cultural policy. Equally, the document should recognise that cultural heritage is contemporary as well as traditional. We welcome in particular the priority action to explore multi-annual funding, which would represent, if it happened, a crucial step forward in enabling more effective planning and delivery of high-quality cultural activity throughout the country. We suggest the draft should flag more realistically the scale of the challenges involved in progressing policy areas which have been problematic or underdeveloped in the past, for example Irish language policy or arts in education.

To make this new policy effective, the development of an implementation plan with specific and measurable actions and targets is clearly vital. We welcome the Government's commitment to move quickly to develop that plan in partnership with all the stakeholders, including the joint committee. On behalf of the Irish arts community, the National Campaign for the Arts is determined to help achieve a new cross-party consensus on a ten-year vision for culture at the heart of Irish life and society.

Ms Jo Mangan

We are happy to answer questions on anything we touched on in this necessarily short format here. Ms Olwen Dawe is here to join the discussion on finer policy points.

I ask the representative of Screen Producers Ireland to address the committee.

Ms Barbara Galavan

I am the CEO of Screen Producers Ireland and I am joined by my colleague Ms Lesley McKimm, a partner in Newgrange Pictures, an independent production company and producer of films including "My Name is Emily" and television programmes including "Designing Ireland". Ms McKimm is also chair of Screen Producers Ireland's film and television drama committee. We are delighted to be here on behalf of Screen Producers Ireland to discuss the Culture 2025 framework.

Screen Producers Ireland is the national representative organisation of independent film, television and animation production companies. Our members produce programmes including "Vikings", "Ripper Street", "Penny Dreadful", "The Voice", "Room to Improve", "Red Rock", "Ros na Rún" and "BB agus Bella". They have also produced Oscar nominated films like "Room" and "Brooklyn". SPI promotes the growth and sustainability of a working environment conducive to a strong independent production sector for its 130 members. A forthcoming report will provide definitive numbers on employment in the sector, but it will give the committee a sense of the scale of the industry to note that "Penny Dreadful" alone employed 1,200 cast and crew over the course of the production last year. This is more people than are currently employed in Ireland by Facebook. In addition, the combined expenditure in Ireland by "Penny Dreadful" and "Ripper Street" in the production period was over €50 million. These numbers illustrate the importance of fostering the right ecosystem to nurture the creative talent that can attract big-budget productions.

Screen Producers Ireland welcomes the Culture 2025 framework policy. The aim of this report to put culture at the heart of our lives is a laudable ambition. We see ourselves as an important part of Ireland's creative sector and consider that we play an important role in preserving Ireland's rich cultural heritage. How can the Culture 2025 framework positively impact the Irish audio-visual sector? As drafted and as has already been said, the framework document is very broad. We understand that it is to be followed by a cross-sectoral plan, which we welcome. The plan must be more specific if it is to have a tangible, positive impact on our sector. What would make a big difference to the audio-visual sector would be a single vision. The sector is fragmented and a single cohesive vision is missing. Culture 2025 provides the perfect catalyst for the creation of this vision. If it were included, the Culture 2025 process would be the perfect opportunity to foster an all-industry approach to developing a strategy towards sustainable growth which would assist companies to scale up. Bringing relevant Departments and stakeholders together to design and agree a vision would provide a tangible benefit to the audio-visual sector from Culture 2025.

We take this opportunity to point to some practical and immediate measures the Government could take to support growth. Between 2008 and 2014, capital funding for the Irish Film Board was reduced by 40%. The Irish Film Board's €11.5 million is significantly less than the amount available to the Northern Ireland Screen agency. Northern Ireland Screen's annual investment in production is approximately €16.5 million and this is to cover a significantly smaller territory. We are calling for the reinstatement of the Irish Film Board's grant of €20 million per annum. It is also imperative that policy makers understand the importance of our public service broadcasters to the sector.

Strong public service broadcasting leads to a strong indigenous production sector. The two are intrinsically linked. Broadcasters are incubators for talent. Without strong public service broadcasters, Ireland will fail to develop new companies that can compete internationally. The current television licence fee structure based on television ownership is outdated and no longer fit for purpose. It must be changed to address evasion and the impact of new technology on consumption patterns. A household media charge would eliminate television licence fee evasion and ensure that our public service broadcasters had a stable funding base. We are not looking for an increase in the burden on households but rather for sensible reform of a system that is no longer fit for purpose or reflective of modern media consumption habits. We support the introduction of a household-based media charge. While we know it may not be a popular subject, to continue to ignore the issue is allowing a much bigger problem to develop. We urge the committee to recommend the charge to the Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment.

Section 481 is Ireland's film and television tax incentive. It is vital that Ireland continues its long history of maintaining a tax incentive for production. Without it, Ireland's production sector would simply not exist. Improvements have been made in recent years which have been welcomed by all but there is a need now to extend section 481 beyond 2020. Productions require very long lead times and without the guarantee that a tax incentive will be in place beyond 2020, incoming productions may decide to locate elsewhere.

There is no doubt that despite the funding cuts and the difficult economic circumstances which the indigenous production sector has experienced, it remains a vibrant industry. It is Ireland's window to a worldwide audience, contributes to the message that Ireland is open for business, provides valuable high-end employment and plays a significant role in attracting tourism. Culture 2025 is an opportunity to help the sector to progress to the next level. This can be achieved by including the creation of a vision for how we see the Irish audio-visual sector growing and by deciding on an all-industry approach that allows the sector to achieve its full potential. This must be included in the cross-sectoral plan which we understand will follow the framework document.

I thank all the groups for their very informative and interesting presentations. There is no agreed process for selecting questioners but we will go on a first come, first served basis today. We have three people who have put up their hands. We will start with Deputy Niamh Smyth and Senators Aodhán Ó Ríordáin and Fintan Warfield.

I thank the witnesses for their presentations. There has been a lovely and broad cross-section of the various art forms. "Red Rock" is one of my favourite contemporary screen productions. We have come on so much in terms of our own shows on national television, which is something to be proud of. On the broader question of the draft cultural document before us, Mr. Downes referred to the arts in education aspect not being as tangible in it as we might like. From an artist's point of view, there is a huge opportunity with the arts in education charter and in the proposals and aspirations it includes for local arts in education partnerships to provide full-time, long-term employment for artists constituting a sustainable career with a good income. Having come from the arts myself, we still do not have in Ireland that certainty or continuity in projects, positions or jobs. Perhaps someone from each group could answer on the education aspect.

How do they believe we could be more comprehensive about this? Do they have any proposals so that we can get our teeth stuck into something tangible?

I ask one speaker from each group to respond.

Mr. David Kavanagh

The Association of Artists Representative Organisations sees the education sector as divided into two parts. One is education in the arts at primary and secondary levels. The provision here is inadequate but it is an area in which we do not have huge expertise. We concentrate on the other part, namely, provisions at third level for the training of artists. There has been a complete absence of a focused debate on the provision of large volumes of persons qualified to be artists vis-à-vis the actual possibilities for people to sustain careers as artists. In certain sectors, there is a dramatic overprovision of qualified persons, who are not going to be able to pursue careers in the arts because there are simply not enough places available for them to work. We would very much welcome some kind of debate on the appropriate means of preparing people for careers in the arts but we are not sure how it could work as there are so many contradictory requirements. From the perspective of working artists, there are very few careers available.

Ms Angela Dorgan

We looked at what other countries were doing and we saw some great research from Creative Scotland, as well as creative learning plans which include education. A lot of reports call not only for a focus on education but on the attributes underpinning learning, such as cognitive abilities, confidence, motivation and problem-solving, which are all related to the arts. These underpin our call for a cross-cutting approach and for all these to be put together so that arts are part of everything. We would also like the current arts and education policy to be implemented.

Ms Barbara Galavan

The Irish Film Board and the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland have come together to form a training strategy, which we understand will be published soon. We call for one cohesive vision for the audio-visual sector and believe that, while this initiative is very good, it puts the cart before the horse a little bit. What are we creating a training strategy for if we have not identified exactly what the core vision of the sector is? We would like to see stakeholders coming together to agree the vision and everything else can then feed into it. A lot of problems will be solved by agreeing an overarching vision for the audio-visual sector.

In the previous Oireachtas I was Minister of State in this Department and we came to the view that the Department needed to change completely. We came to believe that there possibly needed to be a full Department of culture and the arts, with a Cabinet Minister as they have in other European countries. I am horrified that this Government has decided to make the arts a footnote in the Department and not to even have a dedicated Minister of State. This area can be accused unfairly of being elitist or a luxury but groups on the edge of Irish society, such as Travellers, migrants, people living in poverty or with an addiction always turn to the arts to give voice to what they are going through. It is often the only platform they have as they do not have access to mainstream media. I have found that the arts are fundamental to national conversations and if we reduce funding to the arts, as has happened, or do not promote them, we dilute the discussion about equality that every country needs to have.

What are the countries which have Bills or Acts on the status of artists and what has been the effect of such legislation? I believe there is legislation of this type in Canada. Why do the witnesses feel it is so important? My first sentence may have been political but I feel that one thing this cross-party committee can work on collectively would be to produce such a Bill or a report recommending a Bill.

Ms Birch Hamilton

Historically, when we have approached the Department dealing with the arts about the challenges artists have, such as copyright or matters relating to the Competition Authority, it would say it was dealt with in a different section. A strategic Bill would deal with many issues, most of which involve copyright and buyout contracts. As Mr. Kavanagh said, it also involves implementing EU directives to their full capacity and ensuring artists are remunerated properly for their work. If we had a status of artists Bill we could put in place many things such as ensuring artists get cable retransmission rights. It would be a good idea to have one cohesive vision because we have found that there are a great many different departments, including the Competition Authority, and they need to be brought together. A film director making "Vikings" in Ireland would earn up to 80% less than they would in the US because of the inability of Ireland to implement full EU measures on copyright for directors. Many things would increase the sustainability of artists' income and would yield a return to the Exchequer, which would also help the sustainability of artists.

Mr. David Kavanagh

We heard today that the European Commission will announce next week - two weeks earlier than it said it would, which is extraordinary for the European Commission - a new draft directive on copyright which will raise a number of issues and which will come, over time, to the Parliament, the Council and, eventually, to this committee. This is an issue which is not just being raised by us; it is live at the level of the European Union.

I am very interested in that part of the presentation but can the witnesses give me an example of how this has worked well in other jurisdictions? Have they heard of good experiences from other jurisdictions or how it has worked?

Mr. David Kavanagh

In money terms, a screenwriter in Ireland will earn an average of approximately €10,340 per annum. The average income of a screenwriter in the European Union is still very low but is €22,000. Of that, approximately 20% comes from the ongoing sale of their copyright. When a cable television company takes a signal from a broadcaster, it makes a payment for the creative work it has purchased to retransmit. With cable retransmission, the company makes ongoing payments to creators and there are a wide variety of other opportunities, the essence of the system being that the creator of the copyright shares in the economic life of what they have created and is paid in various ways through the economic life of what they have produced. This not only generates cash now but does so into the future and stabilises the income of artists over the long term, which can be extremely helpful on account of the unstable life most artists have in the original "gig" economy, where they have one contract and have no idea whether they will ever have another contract. It is a very positive thing that they can have some hope of a stable income into the future.

Ms Barbara Galavan

There is an exemption in Ireland whereby the cable operators do not have to pay for taking up the signal of our public service broadcasters.

Anyone who makes programmes, or is involved in making them, be it with production companies, directors, actors, or any part of the value chain, does not earn ongoing income from that, whereas in most other European territories they do. It would be quite a simple action on the part of Government to enact what is already part of a directive. This has not been enacted and as a result all parts of the creative value chain are losing.

Mr. David Kavanagh

We have spoken perhaps too much about the audio-visual sector. This applies in other sectors as well, for example, in the visual arts if a painting is sold by an auctioneer a percentage of the new price for the painting goes back to the original artist. That was introduced in Ireland after a particular artist took the then Government to court for non-transmission of the directive. It was then introduced by statutory instrument but at the lowest possible level, generating the minimum possible income for artists because it was not introduced by way of legislation. Similar examples apply to books in libraries. When a book is borrowed from a library a very small payment is made to the writer. That is a very useful source of future income but it was introduced in Ireland approximately ten years after it was required by the European Commission and after the latter had sanctioned Ireland for failure to implement the directive. This was then implemented by statutory instrument at the minimum possible level.

I do not mean to criticise the civil servants or Ministers involved but that task is being performed by a Department which has no interest in artists' income and it is not in the control of the Department which is interested in that income. The result is policy confusion which impacts negatively on artists.

Ms Angela Dorgan

In respect of an artists' charter, in several areas there are artists' exemptions. Iceland is considering a taxation threshold for artists as citizens and on the call for better working and living conditions for artists, there are examples in France of low tax thresholds for all artists. In the UK, in order that musicians were not required to take jobs other than their music-making jobs the Labour Government implemented a musicians' dole which was successful for a while. There are several international examples of how, outside copyright, we can help individual artists in a practical way.

In response to the document, we would like to see more about the artist and the artist living and working. They are citizens and we are citizens. At every level of their lives, we would like to see Ireland take on what has worked in other countries but we would also like Ireland and all of us together to lead and make life better for artists so that instead of being at the end of the European polls for everything, we would be at the top of them.

Ms Jo Mangan

One of the main reasons why the National Campaign for the Arts, NCFA, exists is to improve the working and living conditions for artists. It is worth bearing in mind that conclusive research has been done on the amount of money the people who work in the arts in this country earn. Over and over again we have come up with staggering figures, for example, the Arts Council uncovered the fact that €7,000 is the average annual income for someone working in the arts in Ireland. A total of 76% of visual artists in Ireland earn under €10,000 a year. This is way below poverty thresholds and we do not seem to have grasped the fact that if we want to have a society rather than simply an economy we have to invest in the people who are the creative soul of the country and we have to start mining our natural resources. Our natural resource is our creativity. We are bursting at the seams with it but we have not been taking advantage of it.

There are plenty of examples, such as Scotland, which is similar to Ireland. The median income in the UK, for example, is €15,000 per annum, which is a little bit better than here. In France, there is a sort of dole equivalent which is an interesting model whereby if a person can prove that he or she works between 12 and 18 weeks a year as an artist and is paid, for example, by having an exhibition, being in a film or a play or has written something, that person is entitled for the rest of the time to not starve but to have sufficient income without having to explain her or himself in the dole office. People working in the sector, our colleagues, are constantly embattled in the social welfare system in this country and are questioned and harangued on the basis that there is no such thing as an artist. The status of the artist in this country is very low. We are very much behind the notion of an artists' charter or bill of rights.

I welcome the witnesses and the publication of the culture 2025 framework policy document. It is somewhat devoid of practical points in respect of artists' experience. For five years I performed here and in the United States as a musician and I studied film and television production in Galway. I am particularly disappointed that the opening paragraph by the Minister does not even recognise the difficulties facing the artistic community. Through its campaign the NCFA has highlighted the economic importance of the arts which touches on Senator Ó Ríordáin's suggestion that these Houses need to have a discourse on the ability of cultural activity to empower society, to foster the amazing diversity of our citizens and ensure that marginalised groups can access cultural activity and engage with that process.

Two examples of political art in the city did just that: the mural for marriage equality which provided visibility for a section of our community that did not have that visibility and the recent repeal of the eighth amendment mural in Temple Bar. These Houses need to have an engagement around not only the economic potential of the arts but also its huge potential to empower communities.

Education was also touched on and I note the Scottish youth arts strategy was launched in 2014. We do not have a youth arts strategy here in Ireland and the document does not mention Better Outcomes, Brighter Futures. Education in the arts is very important outside the formal education system. This document needs to recognise the work of organisations such as the National Association for Youth Drama.

We have discussed the North with Screen Producers Ireland. The witnesses mentioned one vision and fragmentation in the industry. Do they see greater potential for engagement between Northern Ireland Screen and the Irish Film Board? Could there be greater collaborative efforts there?

For some time I have given consideration to how this committee can best work with the arts community and cultural industries. This conversation is a good example of that. I would like to volunteer to be a rapporteur for the joint committee to produce a report that seeks ways to strengthen this document but also to make an implementation plan for culture 2025, to maybe run concurrently with the Department's implementation plan, if the committee would be agreeable.

We will listen to the answers and then we can discuss the proposal at the end of the meeting.

Ms Lesley McKimm

Collaboration is key between all the stakeholders. There were very strong connections in the past between the Irish Film Board and Northern Ireland Screen and they have probably fallen away a bit in the past couple of years. It would be very important to see them come back. Film and television in Ireland are in a very complex environment, for example, a lifestyle TV producer occupies a different world from a feature film producer. We do not connect enough even with distributors or cinema owners, and so we are very separate. That applies even to stakeholders such as the Irish Film Board and RTE, and the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, BAI. It is imperative that there is greater dialogue between the agencies. We all have similar goals, even in what we are talking about today, and would benefit from greater dialogue.

Mr. Eugene Downes

In response to one of Senator Warfield's points, there is no doubt that the participation of young citizens, be it through the formal education system or as young artists or the audiences of today and tomorrow, and individual and collective artistic and creative expression feed directly into democratic debate and political expression and how intimately they are connected. Some of our member organisations include the Dublin Youth Dance Company, the Dublin Youth Theatre, the Irish National Youth Ballet Company, the National Youth Council and the National Youth Orchestra of Ireland. This is an extraordinary range of organisations all around the country, not to mention traditional music and dance.

Scotland comes up a number of times as an interesting parallel. Two weeks ago, I took part in the Edinburgh International Culture Summit. About 40 culture Ministers from around the world, including the Minister for Regional Development, Rural Affairs, Arts and the Gaeltacht, participated. Interestingly, Scotland made sure that about a quarter of the delegates were young citizens and their voices were central to that dialogue on cultural policy, not just in Scotland but globally. It is interesting that giving the vote to 16-year-olds in the Scottish referendum fostered an awareness of the importance of young citizens in the cultural arena as well. That is something we would strongly support as the National Campaign for the Arts.

Ms Lesley McKimm

It concerns education, training, funding and gender balance within the industry because the latter is an issue as well. I am a founding member of Women in Film and Television Ireland. There are huge discrepancies in the numbers of male and female directors, writers, producers and so on. This seems to come from third level and relates to confidence, people going into third level, not making those choices and then coming out and the numbers diminishing. This is another area in terms of diversity, education and what we are looking for in this sector. Gender balance is also a very important issue.

I thank the witnesses for being here and it is a pleasure to be here. It is such a relief to see people with energy, artistry, creativity and culture coming before us. The witnesses are terrific. They did not drone on for nine or ten minutes by which time we had lost the point. We got the point, that is why we are here and that is why, thanks be to God, I became a member of this committee this year, so I am delighted to meet them.

I have a number of questions, one of which is quite antagonistic so as to get a response from the witnesses. Senator Ó Ríordáin, a former Minister of State who is now in the Seanad with me, raised a question here. He is right because the issue of competition law versus the freelance artist and whether they have copyright is so important. If we want an artist's charter or bill of rights, we need to set about it and specify very defined areas within legislation. Perhaps we are the committee to help the witnesses do that. We are legislators so we might be able to form or go towards forming that Bill and getting it into the Seanad. One of the greatest Bills came from the Seanad to the Dáil. Perhaps that should be one of the things we do. Perhaps we should get together in some kind of sub-committee and try to do that. It is not easy. Bills are not easy to write. There will always be "isms" and "ists" because one of the issues is how one defines the artist who would warrant the minimum payment. Ms Mangan kind of answered that question but has it been fully answered? Is it a case that someone works 16 weeks per year and is then considered an artist? We must be very careful that we end all our sentences in a Bill. I think we should try to do it and that this is one of the things that should come about today. We should try to put a Bill relating to what the witnesses have said to the Seanad.

My second question is for the screenwriters. They said that they should have a general vision. What should that vision be? Is it the €20 million? They spoke about a big vision. Is it a €20-million vision?

Could Mr. Downes outline the ways in which the arm's-length operational autonomy of the arts is being eroded? I think politics corrodes the arts. "Corrode" is the wrong word. It chokes them before they get off the ground. What would be the first thing he would do if he was the Minister? I put the same question to Ms Mangan.

How would the witnesses answer somebody who sat here and with a sense of ignorance or self-satisfaction said to them "You're doing very well. You've festivals everywhere. You've dance troupes, Celtic music, young ballet dancers, singing, competitions and films and you're on television and radio. You've got centres in every place in Ireland. We've national theatres and new plays and sure we're not done when we've one festival and the next festival". There was much coverage recently of Roald Dahl, whose works I adore. When he came to the Baboró International Arts Festival for Children in Galway nearly 20 years ago, he said he could not believe how brilliant it was. Could the witnesses answer that question? It is an antagonistic question but it is one that comes up when people are giving out money.

I have spent my life in the arts in education, a topic that is nowhere to be found in this. There are three sentences. The arts charter needs to completely rewritten. It is illiterate in places. If one read the first paragraph, one would take cyanide. The arts in education are terribly important because that is where they begin. They also begin, as Senator Ó Ríordáin noted, in places of conflict. The arts are alive in Palestine. They are far more alive than anything else because they are the one thing that brings children from all sides together. The arts in education are sadly missed in this. The subject is pushed in as an addendum to something but it does not stand up on its own. That is why the Government gave 25 points to mathematics but it did not give them to music. Senator Ó Ríordáin is right and I will be very happy to work with him in trying to put together some kind of Bill that we can put to the House because that gives an energy to what the witnesses are talking about. Ms O'Grady is right. The more artistic people are the more of a pauper they are - financially, not creatively.

Mr. David Kavanagh

I will speak first and my colleagues can correct me when I get it wrong. The point about life as an artist is that there are no barriers to a career as an artist. Any citizen of this country who says they are an artist is an artist and is entitled to have a go. That is fantastic and we should encourage it in every way we can. However, there is a difference between a person who has a go for pleasure and a person who tries to make a living out of it. The business of making a living out of it is that one creates copyright material that one sells and tries to have an income. It is not as hard as it sounds to make a separation between the committed citizen who enjoys making art and should not only be allowed but encouraged and facilitated in every possible way and the professional artist who wants to make a lifetime career out of it. Drawing the precise line between the two is not as difficult as it sounds so I do not think that this is a barrier to the idea of coming up with legislation that protects the professional artist.

In respect of the size and volume of what we do and the fact that there is so much of it, it is possible to put numbers on it. Two studies, one by Indecon for the Arts Council and the other by Ernst & Young for the EU, looked at the value of the creative industries. They concur about the value of the industry in Ireland and suggest that the creative industries in Ireland drawn fairly widely turn over at least €5 billion and employ at least 55,000 people in Ireland. However, by extension, they also imply that there is a great deal more room for growth. We are doing well but we could do much better with better legislative and policy structures and more commitment. The creative energy, skills and capacity are there. It is the legislative and policy structures and, I am afraid, the basic investment by the State that are absent. If these could be put in place, we could do not just as well as we are doing but much better.

Ms Jo Mangan

In response to Senator O'Donnell, it happens because of the hidden subsidy and because most people working in the arts do it regardless of whether they are getting paid. For those of us working in the sector, it always feels that there is that constant expectation. There is not one of us here who has not picked up the telephone to somebody asking us to do something for free. One would never ask a plumber to come over and get in under the sink for a bit of experience. That is something that happens to our sector. It is all wrapped up with respect for what the artist is or who we are.

I will answer the question about being Minister. I would fight and fight and fight. Moreover, I would have information, and the statistics and information we have are solidly interrogated. Occasionally, people ask us whether that information can be real and we can reply that it is. For example, 2.6% of the GDP of the whole of Europe comes from the creative economy. Similarly, the wider sector contributed €4.7 billion in Ireland, not in Europe, with an aggregate employment figure of 78,900. There is a kind of notion that the arts are some sort of elite activity into which some people fall because they are from a middle class background. It could not be further from the truth and Senators Ó Ríordáin and Warfield both alluded to that today. The real point is that when the Minister responsible for culture in Canada got that job, she said it was the best job in the country. We all need that passion and vision to be driven right through this document and to be riven into the centre of government in Ireland.

Is Ms Mangan stating that neither the fight nor the information is in this framework policy, which also is the point made by Senator Warfield?

Ms Jo Mangan

Yes. We have carried out analysis. This is my personal opinion. I believe it has a long way to go to be anything other than-----

Ms Jo Mangan

-----vaguely aspirational. I have shown it to people in the United Kingdom who have worked on cultural policy in the past. Ms Olwen Dawe obviously is well versed on that side of things and what is missing from it and from the previous drafts that have existed is teeth. There is no commitment, and as other colleagues have mentioned, nothing is ring-fenced regarding the right of the artist. It lacks teeth and has no commitments within it. I understand it is difficult to write a policy and then have the commitments within it.

In response to Senator Warfield, I do not know if it is my place to say it but if we are talking about an all-party policy document that will stand us in good stead for ten years, I am not sure whether the way to go is with a parallel track that is in existence to interrogate it and to try to get down into an alternative universe that it could be. It feels as though it should be happening within the Department and should be happening with the clear input of the Oireachtas committee and the people who advise the committee externally. That is my opinion in this regard.

Can Mr. Downes answer my question?

Yes. Lean ar aghaidh.

Mr. Eugene Downes

The Senator asked me about potential risks or threats to the arm's-length principle.

Mr. Eugene Downes

Absolutely. At the National Campaign for the Arts, there is a strong commitment both to the arm's-length principle and a feeling this is something that must be clearly articulated even in this high-level framework policy, let alone in the implementation plans, for example. There seems to be a gap in the current document in this regard.

As for potential risks, three or four areas could be mentioned. The previous Fine Gael-Labour Party Government announced it would abolish the boards of the National Museum, the National Library and Culture Ireland. The Government proceeded to abolish the board of Culture Ireland and I believe Senator Ó Ríordáin was a Minister of State in that Administration at a later date. While I should declare that I am a former chief executive of Culture Ireland, there was a full board when I was there. The board was abolished and has been replaced by an advisory committee which, shall we say, sounds less robust than a board, notwithstanding the strengths and skills of the people on that advisory committee. Having stated the Government's intention to abolish the boards of the National Museum and National Library, luckily there was a lot of opposition to that and it has not been proceeded with. The Minister has just recently appointed a new board to the National Museum, although there was a long intermissory period without a board. For example, for a long time - until very recently - there has been only a chair and no board members other than the chair of the Heritage Council. Consequently, from the point of view of the National Campaign for the Arts, what would be welcome would be a clear statement by the current Government that the prior policy to abolish the two boards of the National Museum and the National library has been reversed. It appears to have been reversed because a new board has just been appointed to the museum but it would be good to have a clear statement that this policy has been reversed.

As for Culture Ireland, the National Campaign for the Arts certainly would call for the reinstatement of an independent board for that body. In addition, while this is not about a particular Minister or civil servants, there has been a broader pattern in recent years in which significant funding schemes, be they capital or current funding schemes for certain arts projects, for example, are administered by the Department rather than by one of the arm's-length agencies such as the Arts Council, the Irish Film Board or others. Structurally, there is a risk that if one does not have an arm's-length entity administering a funding scheme for particular projects, be they current or capital, one runs the risk of the Minister or a senior civil servant being directly implicated in deciding on the merits, including the artistic merits, of these projects. Again, the National Campaign for the Arts would support the idea of a consistent arm's-length principle when public funds are being awarded in capital or current projects. I do not suggest there should be no exceptions but the expectation should be that the arm's-length principle should be applied. These are a number of areas to which I would point in this regard.

Ms O'Grady wishes to come in at this point. I note we are approximately four minutes over time in this slot.

Ms Rynagh O'Grady

I will be brief. Senator O'Donnell brought together two things, namely, us discussing the status of the artist and what would we do if we were Minister. I wish to make some quick points. The recognition of professional artists is essential. Mr. David Kavanagh is right when he states anyone can practise by sitting down to write a book or whatever he or she chooses to do. However, if one wishes to be an actor, I recommend that one be a member of Equity, and to be a member of Equity, one must have trained. That makes the difference between the amateurs and the professionals who have put three or four years into training to develop the skill.

Were I the Minister, the idea of drawing up a manifesto would be essential. Artists in Ireland must be protected and I believe we must be nurtured. It is essential to have a social welfare system that recognises our professional status and that is worked in some way which recognises that our work is irregular and that enables us to live and even to go to classes to do things and to continue to hone our skills. Issues such as housing and health care, which are dealt with in Scandinavian countries and in France, are not even dreamt of by Irish artists. The number of things we can put together is unending, if the object is to put artists at the centre of how we develop. An ongoing issue is that artists are not consulted. That is where the Association of Artists Representative Organisation, AARO, came from. How many practitioners does one see on the Arts Council, on the Irish Film Board on the authority-----

It is extraordinary, is it not?

Ms Rynagh O'Grady

We are like some sort of secondary factor in this issue when we are at its very centre.

I will ask a few questions, if I may. I was disappointed with Culture 2025 – Éire Ildánach myself. I thought it nebulous and light and it did not go to the heart of the matter. If one considers that the matter was so obvious and has been debated so much, there should have been more meat on the bones in the document itself. One of the gaping holes within it, which is a key element within the entire sector, is the inability of artists to make a living wage. It is a socioeconomic problem but also is one of the biggest factors militating against the production of art because it means so many people must leave the sector or must leave the country to practise their art. If we can get that right, it will be very important. I note that AARO has stated that most of its proposals are cost neutral and would not make a big difference to the Exchequer. I also note the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation has developed the knowledge development box.

The idea was to ensure intellectual property had some return for those who developed it. The sector is burgeoning and some of the figures are amazing, such as those regarding Facebook, but we do not have the same attitudes towards how the development of art can be used to allow people make a decent wage from it. It is also extraordinary that the sector does not have the ability to collectively bargain. A big debate has been taking place in Leinster House over recent years about workers having the right to collectively bargain. Incremental changes are happening in this regard but if a whole sector is excluded, it points to the fact it will suffer economically as a result.

Ms Mangan mentioned she felt it was not a good idea to have a parallel track and I understand this. She wants to ensure she is i lár an aonaigh and wants to be in the middle of where it is happening regarding the Department. It should be noted this is a cross-party body. We have great skills and some level of influence with the Department. Sometimes a Department needs to be pushed from a number of different angles. If we can find a structure by which we could develop a report on the needs of the sector it could be a tool to further the area.

The country has a similar view to screen as it does to foreign direct investment. It lauds and loves when big multinationals come into the country. They are good and useful but the internal ecosystem of development is also very important. In business this is not great and sometimes it is not great in the arts either. People find it very hard to break through the middle space to get into the larger facilities where they can employ more and create more. What is necessary to achieve this? With regard to tax breaks in the sector, is there a need to refocus them to allow for smaller enterprise and smaller screen producers to develop into the middle space? This middle space is more sustainable in the long run for everybody in the indigenous sector.

Ms Lesley McKimm

I will speak about the indigenous film sector and something we are pushing for which has a price tag attached to it. This is the €20 million for the Irish Film Board. What struck me reading the document is sustainable careers, and we have spoken about this. Film producers and television production companies have the same issues. We have agencies here with lots of experience and they are now experts in the area. The Irish Film Board is one of these.

The Chairman asked why more money is required. It is imperative there is more funding for the Irish Film Board. It has not been working on a level playing field for a number of years. Successes such as "Room", "Brooklyn" and "Viva" are not accidents. They show a maturation of careers. These directors, writers, producers and production companies may be on their fourth or fifth feature film. They have been working for more than 20 years and have had steady support from agencies, such as the Irish Film Board and the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, and from tax incentives, which have allowed them to grow and get stronger and better at their craft. We are seeing the results of this in the quality of the feature films we are making. There is a danger the cut in funding will create a gap. People at entry level or approaching mid-career will fall out and we will not see them continue because the funding is not there. Calling for more money seems like an easy fix but it essential because agencies such as the Irish Film Board are under huge pressure to foster new talent, look at ways of training, look at intervention and grow people throughout their career. There are huge possibilities for growth. Incoming productions such as "Star Wars" and "Penny Dreadful" are hugely beneficial. They bring a huge amount of employment and upskill everybody here but they must live side by side with indigenous production and the writers, directors and producers who generate their own projects. These small feature films and documentaries go into the world and there must be a twin track approach for them.

What about the other issues regarding how best the committee can work with the sector?

Ms Birch Hamilton

I understand what Ms Mangan means about having something working in parallel but the committee has a very valuable role in the discussion in terms of documents. A status of the artist Bill, which would encompass numerous needs of the artist and the arts community, would be very welcome and would focus and bring together all of the issues we have discussed today.

Ms Angela Dorgan

The national campaign would offer to support the writing of it. It would be great for the Oireachtas to agree the Bill before we leave today if it is a solution. We would all like to give our support and collective research and weight to it.

It is a very difficult process and takes a long time. There is a place not for a subcommittee but for a get together. We could think of something we could bring together because this has so many elements. It is a big circle with many radii. Given that the Government might get through two budgets, we could get it on the floor of the Seanad. It will get through two budgets under the Taoiseach, Deputy Enda Kenny.

Optimism is important.

I am nailing my colours to the mast. We could probably get something on the floor of the Seanad or get some legislation in writing.

Other speakers wish to contribute.

How we do it is up to the Chairman.

Ms Karan O'Loughlin

We very much welcome the suggestion we might come together in some shape or form to create a legislative base on the status of the artist and everything that comes with it. I am very happy to have participated in this discussion and witnessed everything that been said. It is important that the committee notes there is more that joins than separates the various groups which are here, particularly with regard to funding, creativity and the desire we all have to ensure artists can have sustainable careers in Ireland.

With regard to funding, it is important to state if we are to have a global conversation on this we need to watch what is happening outside of the island, particularly if we are examining possibilities to interact with Northern Ireland. If Brexit comes to fruition it could have a serious impact, possibly very negative, on the industry in Ireland. We need to ensure we have positioned ourselves properly to be able to deal with it. There are real possibilities through working with the committee and through the stakeholders working together on a global vision. It is important that we note this as part of the conversation.

Mr. Eugene Downes

It is for the committee to decide its best path forward and how it structures its engagement. From our point of view, however, we very much look forward to engaging on a continuous basis not only with committee members but all Members of the Oireachtas, as we have been doing at constituency level. It is a very exciting time for us because I do not believe there has ever been a time since 1922 when the Oireachtas has had potentially such a powerful voice in the formation of cultural policy and much other public policy. In a way, what the committee is doing is breaking new ground and we stand ready to work with it to do so collectively, as people working in the arts representing hundreds of thousands of people and as citizens.

I have huge sympathy with most of the arguments being put forward. As somebody who did a commerce degree in Galway and went home to a pub in Connemara and told my father I was going to become an actor in the late 1980s, I understand exactly where the witnesses are coming from. Thankfully, I went on to become series producer with "Ros na Rún" for four years, so I have covered the gamut of working with artists in theatre and across the board. There is a huge lack of ambition in the document. Possibly the most ambitious element is the Irish language title, which is Éire Ildánach, because in the middle of the word ildánach is the word dána, which means bold, which is what artists are supposed to be.

When speaking to people working in the arts, most of the issues involve allowing them the space to do what they want to do. Normally they find they must pigeonhole themselves into a funding stream to do what they want to or they receive a grant and are told they can do their visual arts project but they will have to teach for several hours in the local school because we cannot be seen to give out money to artists for the sake of it.

It goes back to the initial statement about the artist not being recognised as an artist in his or her own right in this country. We have muzzled artists in the State in the way funding streams are managed. The mainstream people in the middle of the road who do not look to rock the boat tend to get the lion's share of the funding from agencies. We do not give space to artists to be critical.

Some people say Charlie Haughey's greatest invention was Aosdána. He got all the creative and critical people in the country and put them into one space, giving them all a grant to keep them kind of quiet. That might not be fair to the people in Aosdána. I am interested to hear the delegation's opinion of Aosdána and the likes of Aosdána. It gives a stipend each year to artists in order to allow them space to do what they want. Is it outdated and does it need rejuvenating?

The move away from liberal arts in third level education in particular is a major step backwards for arts in general. Third level education is not just about getting a degree; it is about being in a community where a person can do all kinds of other things. When I was in college in Galway, the societies were much more vibrant. At NUI Galway today - it is the day for societies - one can see that the societies are nowhere near as active as they would have been in the past. Perhaps that was to the detriment of people doing their degrees, but there was much creative talent that set up the likes of Druid, Macnas and the Galway Arts Festival. We are losing much of that through the education system, as it is based on points and people getting jobs. The process has been industrialised. What are the witnesses' thoughts on the third level education system in particular? The issue of second level and primary education has also been mentioned, as well as the status of the arts in school and lighting the flame with young people. There has been some really good stuff in the hospital with the Galway university arts foundation that was set up. There have been some really good projects regarding health and the arts. It is an area we should consider much more.

Collective bargaining is a major issue. We would like to get more information on how that could be put in place. It is crucial that people have the right to stand as individuals employed as artists and can work together as well. In some cases being an artist is collaborative, but in many cases it starts with an individual writing, painting or doing something else. People may not work in a collective but it is crucial to have collective bargaining.

There are issues around income being aggregated over a year for tax. Many artists live from hand to mouth and when they get the gig with the big cheque at the end of it, the tax people may see it as aggregated, but not over the space of a year. Social welfare for artists should also be examined. An actor on tour may really be on the dole because it is the only way he or she can make a living. Such people might get a few bob out of going on tour. The idea of having to sign on for social welfare every week while on a tour takes away from the practicalities of trying to create the art. We need to look at social welfare having a more positive approach to people in the arts.

Nobody has mentioned new media, an area where we certainly need to sort out copyright issues. What is the potential for new media and what are the collaboration prospects with other countries such as Scotland? TG4 has been really successful working with the Irish language broadcast fund and other organisations such as BBC Alba to complete projects that could not have been done alone. It is not just about artists being involved with the arts and creating things; it is about culture and about ourselves as a people with an identity. How can we give artists the space to be critical, confront us, challenge us, take us on and entertain us? That is what a strategy and policy framework should be. It should not be the State dictating that it will give money if a person does A, B or C. If a person wants to do A, B or C it should be a case of how the State can help in creating that art. Most of the people who gained the awards mentioned earlier did not go through any formal training and many did not get State grants; some turned down State grants to do what they did but were given a space. They became wonderful international artists in their own right. It is a case of asking how we can foster that.

There is a phone interfering with the broadcast.

It is mine. Tá mé dána.

To follow the Senator's comments, all artists need formal training to be artists, rather than doing it on a Saturday because there is nothing else to do. I completely disagree with that.

Mick Lally did not have any formal training.

He did not. He was a teacher.

He was formally trained at DramSoc in University College Galway. He was bilingual and a natural actor.

That was not formal training. That was informal training.

Stop it, the two of you. Order, le bhúr dtoil.

Mr. David Kavanagh

I will come in very quickly on Aosdána and income aggregation. I should declare an interest, as my partner of 35 years is a member of Aosdána. Approximately 150 members of Aosdána receive what is called the cnuas, which is a sum of approximately €17,500 per annum, and they receive it in five-year blocks. It is extraordinarily helpful to the individuals involved and gives them a kind of basic income that allows them to survive. Naturally, the problem with Aosdána is that it supports 150 artists and not the 7,000 or 8,000 other artists. At the moment, it is key to the 150 artists. I should point out that the sum of €17,400 is approximately €1,000 less than the average payment made from European Union sources through the Common Agricultural Policy to every farmer in the country. It is not a great deal of money.

The Senator is absolutely right that income aggregation causes a difficulty, although for a very small number of people. The income tax exemption introduced by Charles Haughey in 1968 has been extraordinarily helpful to artists through those years. The cap was reduced and it is now at €50,000 per annum, but 95% of artists do not earn anything close to that income tax exemption cap. The business of income aggregation, while a good idea in principle, relates to a very small number of artists, unfortunately.

Ms Jo Mangan

I will deal with second and third level education. With regard to second level in particular, the National Campaign for the Arts has advocated for the junior cycle review to include dance and drama along with music. It is an interesting question. These have traditionally been exam subjects in the UK. Things are changing there because of how they have altered their third level education system, so it makes it much less attractive for people to study any arts subject. It might seem like a big reach to do dance or drama in school but we can think about the inherent benefits to young people, including self-expression and mental and physical health. As a person who used to hide from the physical education class in secondary school, if there was a drama class I might have gone to it, although not until fifth or sixth year, when I would have worked up enough confidence to do so. There must be places for people to grow. As the Senator indicated, we cannot just be streaming people towards knowing exactly what they want to do when they are 17. We cannot just churn out drones for industries that may or may not be here in the morning. I do not know what is going on in the main Chamber.

Nothing as artistically interesting as here anyway.

Ms Jo Mangan

The notion of collective bargaining is fascinating. We are of a disparate nature, although, as the Senator indicated, there are similarities between the individuals, speaking on behalf of people who are not here. In addition, we are structured in a silo fashion in terms of how we interact with our funding bodies, for example. We are structured to interact as festivals, films, visual artists or whatever. We tend to organise around our little silos. I will take the blame for the sector in that we are not collectively organised in that regard and we cannot speak cohesively as a whole all the time.

The concept of penury has been much mentioned around the table today.

Many people do not have the capacity to invest time in the voluntary work all of us - and the many people working behind us - are doing by being here today.

It is an education listening to the witnesses. Somebody mentioned an aspirational investment of 0.3% of GDP. That is something like what Apple has paid in tax in the last few years. Over the last eight years, everybody will agree, expression and creativity has suffered dramatically because of austerity. Obviously, many other things have suffered as well. If one thing comes out of this, and I am just an observer today, we could put in our Constitution that a percentage of our GDP - 0.3%, or even more - is set aside for creativity and the arts, for people to express themselves, because it is so important.

I have been here six months and I think one of the reasons we got into this muddle of austerity is that the Government has tried to make us live in an economy rather than a society. It is so important that working people have a way of expressing themselves, through art, painting, dancing or something else. It is a beautiful form of expression that human beings have, but if it is down to funding, we are just paying lipservice to that. I have been hearing that Ireland has become the sick man of Europe when it comes to the arts. Hopefully, I am wrong on that. That is terrible, because many artists are struggling. People are trying to make a living out of it and they are struggling. Sometimes it is difficult for people to be creative when they are struggling. Individuals can occasionally be creative when they are struggling. However, sometimes when they are struggling all the time it is not good. Hopefully, if we can make progress on this matter, we will put in place something which states that we must spend 0.3% on the arts to facilitate creativity.

Ms Jo Mangan

Is that done, then?

Yes, I will talk to the Minister, Deputy Noonan, later on.

Mr. Eugene Downes

Taking up Deputy Gino Kenny's point on the figures, it is interesting that in recent months the campaign was using these figures, which are originally from the Council of Europe and which date back a number of years. That is always a challenge with transversal studies of this kind. In this instance, for example, the data date back to 2011. We called moving from 0.11% to 0.3% going halfway instead of moving to 0.6%, which is the European average. Our current spending is, therefore, approximately one fifth of the European average. The Minister and the Department have questioned the basis for those figures, both in parliamentary questions and in correspondence, meetings and so on, but the Department has not offered an alternative figure. There is definitely a gap in terms of getting the data and how the data are analysed. One of the things for which a cross-party committee is particularly useful is that we can genuinely at least reach agreement on what are the actual figures. Then we can reach an analysis of how it should go forward. There may be a range of different political views on what that level of investment should be - we would obviously advocate a very ambitious level of investment - but if all parties and, indeed, the Department, could agree what the figures actually are, that would be a good basic analytical starting point. That is something on which the campaign would really welcome engagement, both on the Deputy's side and from the Department.

Ms Birch Hamilton

I note that 95% of us in the room are not artists. We can often miss the voice of the artist and that is what was absent from the document. Whatever the Oireachtas decides to do, if the voice of the artist is embedded in the thinking and the future role of the Oireachtas, we will get it right.

Ms Karan O'Loughlin

The Senator mentioned social welfare and the competition issue. We would very much welcome some sort of arrangement for social welfare for professional artists. That would be a real step forward in terms of the sustainability of their careers. We would also like to have some recognition for training within that system. Currently, if artists try to upskill and they are not working, they cannot get a social welfare payment because they are not available for work. However, they are trying to upskill themselves to further their chances of more work. If we could have some sort of integrated system around that, it would be really useful.

In terms of something that would have a very significant impact, as stated earlier, it would be good if we could find a way to overturn the Competition Authority decision. That can be done by legislation. Such legislation was promised by a previous Administration around 2006, just before the economic crisis, so it would be possible to do it. By way of example, if one takes musicians, particularly session musicians, we used to collectively bargain at an industry level and there was a minimum fee for a session musician. If a producer or somebody wanted to engage a musician, they could pay more if they wanted to, if the musician's talent demanded it or if the role demanded it, but there was a floor below which they could not go. It was not a case of someone saying "I'm a musician and I won't work for that" and the employer saying "It doesn't matter, move on. We'll take the next fella - he'll work for half of that." It took all of that human factor and it took wages out of competition. It gave musicians more room to develop and it certainly gave them more work. We believe there is real value in this, not just for musicians, but for voice-over actors, freelance photographers and so on. There is a whole swathe of people who are caught in this competition problem artistically. Freelance writers, I believe, have the same problem.

We would be very keen to address this issue and we believe there is an opportunity to do so during the lifetime of this Government. It has had a detrimental effect on incomes. The Chairman mentioned the discussion which took place in recent years in respect of precarious work activity, etc. Artists have been engaged in precarious work since the first artist was born. They are the original precariat and they continue to suffer, without any formal recognition of that. That is a key issue in terms of a sustainable career for artists.

Ms Jo Mangan

I attended a cultural policy conference in Belfast last year. It was not all riveting, but some of it was fascinating. There was a sociologist speaking at it. Again, this is moving outside our own silos a little. He said that in his estimation the whole working life of all citizens is going to move towards the way artists are working now. It is going to be those portfolio careers - a little bit here and a little bit there - and trying to struggle to make some sort of cohesive version of a salary for oneself. In his estimation, we appear to be the blueprint for the future of the working people of this country and beyond.

I would like to make a number of brief points about the connection between artists and the business world. I say that because a really interesting report was commissioned by the Western Development Commission in 2009. It emphasised that the creative sector was very much underdeveloped and that there was huge potential. On foot of that, I was recently involved with Roscommon Leader Partnership in trying to assist people in the creative sector to make a link with business supports. I want to get the witnesses' thoughts about that linkage. Obviously, income is a major factor for artists. Many of them are sole traders and it is very difficult to make ends meet. I want to understand what model we should be moving towards because it can be an isolated working environment in many ways and one does not have those connections to supports. We have set up a free working space for anybody interested in the creative sector, which will, hopefully, be successful in terms of trying to encourage artists and others involved in the sector to make that linkage with the business sector. I just want to get a number of thoughts on that.

Ms Lesley McKimm

Recently, I presented at a business day where people were giving talks about design and creative thinking for business. My partner and I at Newgrange Pictures were invited to discuss the artist, the hero's journey and storytelling because storytelling, product design and so on are becoming increasingly important. It was an interesting crossover in that we were talking to those present from a creative perspective about design thinking in business for successful companies that were involved in computers and other areas. We had something to give them but they also had something that we needed. There is not enough convergence. As a producer in a production company, I studied arts, which are great and creative, but in terms of hard business, growing companies and sustainability, production companies are the main engine for developing projects, employment and ensuring that projects get financed and come to fruition. They need to be strong, to be sustained and to grow. More business expertise is needed. There is some synergy between the film and television sectors with business agencies like Enterprise Ireland but not enough.

Ms Jo Mangan

Regarding Leader, we have had that on our wish list for a long time. As we know, Leader funds are a great community resource but cultural organisations have had difficulty accessing that money. For example, it took me five years to convince my local Leader group in County Kildare that it was within Leader's mandate to fund cultural activity. The new Leader guidelines have been published but I have not read them all, so I am unsure as to whether this point is sufficiently embedded so that those of us working in the cultural sector know that it is there and accessible. The Leader organisations must work to understand the potential of cultural industries, for example, county festivals and artists. I attended the launch of the Western Development Commission, WDC, report in Ballaghaderreen. It was fascinating. Professor Mícheál Ó Súilleabháin and Ms Garry Hynes - extraordinary people and talismans for our sector - spoke.

The enterprise board did something interesting that was picked up on in the press recently. It sent Macnas, which members will know, from Galway to South by Southwest, SXSW, to promote Ireland as an investment destination. There has been a slight shift in thinking, although we must be careful that it does not become too deeply instrumentalised. Perhaps we should consider how other agencies funded by the Government or Europe can look to the arts as a way of promoting Ireland internationally without being too instrumental.

We are in constant danger as regards local authorities because a certain percentage of money for the arts comes via them as discretionary funding. It can disappear at any moment. The National Campaign for the Arts is calling for that funding to be made non-discretionary and moved into local authorities' central funding.

As a number of members have returned, I suggest that they be given two minutes to contribute before we draw the meeting to a close.

What is the status of the proposal on volunteering for the rapporteur's report?

We may leave that until we finish this discussion with our guests. We will discuss it among ourselves then.

I have a question on Aosdána for the National Campaign for the Arts. From the outside looking in, I imagine that Aosdána looks like a great vehicle for giving artists a sense of security but it is restrictive. Once one is in, one is in but how do young artists or artists who are trying to become established become members? I stand to be corrected but once one is a member, one is a member forever. Do the National Campaign for the Arts delegates believe that there is an opportunity to reform Aosdána or are they satisfied?

Ms Jo Mangan

That is a big question. I have never had anything to do with Aosdána, as I am considered an interpretative artist as opposed to a creative one because I am a theatre director, so I am not wildly qualified to discuss it. Everything is ripe for reform and examination at all points. The pool of money is small, with just €5 million allocated each year. Actually, it is probably less, although that is a guess. Some €5 million sounds like loads but it gets divided up.

Ms Angela Dorgan

I should declare that my brother is a member but I echo Mr. Kavanagh's comment in that it is a pity that there are not 7,000 members instead of 150. The idea that we support an artist and put an artist in such a central position is welcome. I agree, and am sure that Aosdána agrees, that if it opened up more types of membership to younger artists - there are new arts, for example, digital, creative and design arts, that did not exist when Aosdána's charter was drafted - it would welcome them. It would be an indication that their country thought so much of them. It would be great to see more members of all disciplines and ages.

Go raibh maith agat. Gabhaim míle buíochas leo as a gcuir i láthair. It gives us a mammoth amount to consider over the next while. I thank the witnesses for attending. We will undoubtedly see them again soon as I hope to invite them back in the mid-term to discuss the development of the objectives that we all share.

The joint committee went into private session at 4.47 p.m. and adjourned at 5.10 p.m. until 2.15 p.m. on Wednesday, 21 September 2016.
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