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JOINT COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL AND FAMILY AFFAIRS debate -
Tuesday, 4 Oct 2005

Combat Poverty Agency: Presentation.

On behalf of the joint committee, I am pleased to welcome once again Ms Helen Johnston, director of the Combat Poverty Agency, and Mr. Jim Walsh, head of research and policy, who are here to make a pre-budget 2006 submission on behalf of the agency. Members are reminded of the parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members who wish to make a declaration with regard to any matter being discussed may do so now or at the beginning of their contribution. Members are also reminded that if there is any possibility of a conflict of interest, they should make a declaration either now or at the start of their contribution. Probably the only declaration we might make is that we are all poverty-stricken.

I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but that this same privilege does not extend to witnesses appearing before the committee. While it is generally accepted that witnesses would have qualified privilege, the committee, unfortunately, is not in a position to guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. No doubt people are weary listening to this admonition.

Ms Helen Johnston

I thank committee members. The Combat Poverty Agency appreciates the opportunity to make this presentation. Members have received a copy of our pre-budget submission. Copies have also been made available to the press.

The issue we are trying to address in our pre-budget submission is the continuing high rate of poverty. Even though this is now a relatively affluent country, having experienced high levels of economic growth, nearly one quarter of the population, or about 900,000 people, still live in income poverty — a European measure. When we talk of income poverty, we are talking of less than €192 per week in 2005 values. Our own domestic measure is consistent poverty, which means being below that income level and being deprived of basic necessities such as basic meals, food and home heating. Some 9% of the population, or 375,000 people, are living in consistent poverty. Accordingly, a poverty issue remains to be addressed.

Of particular concern is child poverty. Some 23% of our children are living in income poverty while 15% are still living in consistent poverty, deprived of basic necessities. In particular, lone parent households, larger households and non-working households have a high level of child poverty. This should not be tolerated in an affluent Ireland. As well as being an issue to be addressed now, child poverty has longer term consequences. Therefore, we need to use our current wealth to address the issue now and for the future.

Tax and welfare policy has a significant impact on reducing poverty. Comparative research shows that countries which have strong social welfare systems have relatively low levels of poverty. One such example is Denmark. Ireland, however, has relatively low levels of social spending in comparison with other countries. The budget is a key instrument for adjusting tax and the welfare spend. We have the resources to tackle income poverty as we have a positive fiscal climate. In the 2006 budget we need to put in place proposals and policies which will have a decisive impact on poverty. The Combat Poverty Agency submission sets out such proposals which, if implemented over a two year period, they would reduce income poverty and end consistent child poverty. The cost of our proposals for 2006 is €1.6 billion, which is not far from what was spent last year. We believe this is affordable. We want social welfare expenditure to be prioritised over tax reductions.

That is the background to what we are trying to do. I will ask Mr. Jim Walsh, the agency's head of policy and research, to outline the specific proposals.

I have prepared a handout for members of the committee. Our budget proposals cover six main areas — welfare payments, child income support, in-work benefits, child care, savings and pensions and tax reform. The first three are what one might call staple items. The other three are subject to much public attention at present. That is the case with child care. In the case of savings and pensions, the SSIAs are coming to an end and there is a review of pensions policy by the Pensions Board. With regard to tax reform, the Government has established a group to examine the issue of tax reliefs and incentives. We have something to say on that issue.

The details of our proposals and the costings are on page 1 of our submission. The proposals are outlined and there is a costing for each proposal where it was possible to get such a costing. Most of the items are costed by the Department of Social and Family Affairs and the Department of Finance. The first item is welfare payments. The Government's key target is to reach €150 as a basic welfare payment. The target was set in 2002 and is to be reached by 2007, two years hence. On an inflation adjusted basis the figure would be €171. The gap is approximately €22 at present. We argue that if one adjusts the figure of €150 from the start of 2002, and it was announced in February 2002, the gap is actually €30 which will require two payments this year and next year of approximately €14.70. Given that last year's increase was €14, we recommend that this year's increase be €15 in the personal rate. That increase should apply to all welfare payments. Last year there were two rates, €12 and €14.

A neglected area of welfare provision is the rate for the qualified adult allowance. This is where there is an additional payment for a spouse or partner. At present, this allowance is set at 66% of the adult rate. The agency's view is that this is too low and should be 70% of the personal rate. For that reason, we advocate that the qualified adult allowance be increased by more than the percentage increase for the personal rate. It should be increased by €11, which is 73% of the personal rate increase. This should be done to bridge the gap between the qualified adult rate and the personal rate. We also believe there is scope to improve welfare provision, particularly in the case of the fuel allowance given that it has not been adjusted for a number of years.

I will now deal with child income support. We are particularly concerned about child poverty and have identified a number of interventions which would specifically target children and the families in which they live. The first item is child benefit. The Government has a target of €149, which was to be met by 2003. That has been deferred for a few years. In 2006 values, that target would be approximately €160. While we require only an additional €8 to meet the target of €149, we suggest the increase should be €10 at the standard rate and €12 at the higher rates. This would be in line with the increases given last year.

While we are very supportive of the policy of increasing child benefit, such increases will not be sufficient to address the issue of child poverty in respect of those children living in low-income families. If child dependant allowances, CDAs, the top-up on welfare payments, continue to be frozen, they will be devalued for those on low incomes. We have conducted research which admittedly is now dated which indicates that the basic cost of a child per week is €54. The combined CDA and child benefit package comes to a total of €52, which means there is a shortfall of €2. The shortfall is even greater when it comes to older children as there is an additional cost of some €20 to €25. We suggest CDAs which have been frozen since 1993 should be revisited and increased in an age-related manner. We propose two age-related CDA rates of €20 and €55 per week which, for an unemployed person with a child currently in receipt of €16.80, would represent an increase of over €8 per week as compared to a child benefit increase of only €2. We have a number of other suggestions in terms of extending CDAs and improving school-related payments under the clothing and footwear schemes and the school meals programme.

The issue of in-work benefits is of concern to the Combat Poverty Agency for a number of reasons. First, it is important to ensure there are adequate incentives and rewards for those who take up work because taking up work is very important in tackling poverty. There is evidence of a growing problem of the so-called working poor, namely, people who are working but who fall below the poverty line. Some 9% of those in work can be considered to be the working poor. In other words, approximately 160,000 individuals are living in working poor households. We propose a number of measures to deal with this problem, including an increase in the earnings threshold for a qualified adult, currently €88.88, with higher thresholds for the retention of CDAs. This would provide a greater incentive for people to go out to work. We also propose an increase in family income supplement, FIS, of €42 as well as an increase in the income disregards for various secondary benefits.

The Government is examining the issue of streamlining income support for poor children by combining CDAs and FIS. We are in favour of this strategy but there are many practical issues that must be addressed. The idea is that there will be a streamlined income support system for poorer children which will not discriminate between welfare and work.

There has been much discussion in recent times about child care but from a child poverty perspective, the top priority should be the provision of pre-school education for all children living in low-income families. There is a wealth of research which indicates children who have not had the benefit of pre-school education are at a disadvantage. Obviously, those living in low-income families are doubly disadvantaged. Access to pre-school education for children living in low-income families is one way of counteracting this disadvantage. Any increase in the supply of child care facilities should be targeted at pre-school level.

The Combat Poverty Agency recognises that the cost of child care is a particular burden for low-income households. We suggest the provision of a child care disregard as part of FIS which already targets low-income households. A child care disregard of €100 would be worth up to €60 per week for those in receipt of the supplement.

If the Government decides to look at a more general subvention for the cost of child care, we are not in favour of tax relief or similar proposals. Child benefit is the fairest way to support households with children and child care costs. We suggest a €20 supplement per month for households with children under the age of five. This would obviously not discriminate between those who are at home and those who work outside the home.

The subject of savings is in the air with the concept of developing a savings culture. The SSIA scheme has not addressed the issue of low income households that need to save, should be encouraged to save or do not have access to savings. While this is a difficult task for low income households, it is an important bulwark against indebtedness. MABS, as part of its intervention with people in debt, encourages people to save with their local credit union. Our savings scheme is built on this model and extends it, giving people a clear incentive to save even small amounts of money.

On pensions, the €200 pensions target should be achieved in the next two years for both non-contributory and contributory pensions. As well as improving direct State pensions there is a need to improve the second tier of pensions, and the main vehicle to do this is the personal retirement savings accounts, PRSAs. At the moment only 50% of the population have an occupational pension. We propose that PRSAs be made mandatory for everybody in employment and that for those on low wages the Government make a direct contribution to these pensions. The money would be collected through the PRSI system but would then be managed as a private pension fund. Tax relief on private pensions costs the State more than the State pensions, and this could be more targeted.

On tax reform, the PAYE tax credit is a better way to deliver tax reductions than the personal tax credit, and this should be the focus. We do not propose a change to the bands. Tax incentives should be reviewed as to their value for money and the reliefs available for high earners should be curtailed. In the past we recommended a minimum effective tax rate of perhaps 20% for high earners to prevent them from reducing their tax liability, as they currently can, to almost zero. We also need to avoid regressive income taxes.

I will now assess the policy impact of these proposals. I am sure committee members feel there are many proposals put forward at budget time, but the key issue from a policy perspective is the difference this will make to the well-being of people in Irish society. We need a tool to assess the policy outcome of the various budget proposals. This policy tool must combine the effects of tax and welfare changes. This is often done in the form of a so-called typical family, but the stereotype usually used describes only one in 20 families. The alternative we use is the tax benefit model, which simulates welfare entitlements and tax liabilities for a representative sample of households. One can input the different options we recommend into this model and then assess the benefits of the outcome. This can be assessed in three main ways as follows: the distributive impact of the proposals if the population is divided into ten income deciles from rich to poor, in other words, the categories that would gain most and least; the families that would benefit; and, crucially from a poverty perspective, the impact on relative income poverty. We have a clear mechanism to evaluate, if something is done well, the outcome, particularly in terms of poverty. We are obviously concerned about this as our target is that the budget should reduce the level of income poverty by up to 2%. However, it is a requirement that all Government policies be poverty proofed; it should not be done only by us. Each proposal needs to be assessed in terms of its poverty impact. As I will demonstrate shortly, not only do we assess the poverty impact of our proposals, but we also look at the poverty impact of a more conventional budget where the resources are divided 50:50 between tax reductions and welfare payments. Again, this will indicate the policy choice members, as policymakers, can influence in terms of the budget.

Using the switch model, the cost of our budget proposals is €1.4 billion, approximately €500 million more than the cost of indexation. The full cost of our proposals is more than €1.6 billion. The switch model does not include everything, as sometimes it is not possible to measure every aspect.

On distribution, I refer members to some of my handouts. The first slide is comparative and shows current distribution of income in Ireland by deciles. This breaks the population into ten equal size groups from the poorest to the richest. The analysis shows that the bottom 10% of the population receives approximately 2.5% of total income. This figure gradually increases with the result that the top 10% receives approximately 23% or 24% of total income. This is our starting point.

The next slide shows the distributive impact of the Combat Poverty Agency budget proposals which is indexed or compared with a neutral or a wage-indexed budget. This shows a different outcome where the available resources would be targeted at the bottom end of income earners. Effectively, it tries to counter some of the existing distribution patterns in terms of market income. The average gain would be less than 1% or approximately €4 per person per week. However, we have front-loaded the proposed gains in order that those on the lowest income — the bottom 20% — would gain approximately 4.5% to 5%, or in cash terms a gain of approximately €9 per person per week. This tapers off for the third and fourth deciles where the gain would be between 2% and 3%. However, this would be 2% or 3% of a higher income and in cash terms would come to approximately €8.50 per person per week. The fifth to seventh deciles would receive very little in percentage terms but would still receive approximately €4 or €5 per week. The top three deciles would gain nothing. It is crucial to bear in mind that we are not suggesting the top earners should be given nothing at all; as their tax burden would still be indexed in line with wages, they would not pay more tax. However, they would not gain any more from our proposed budget and, effectively, would stand still.

In terms of total income, we would redistribute approximately €450 million to €460 million, 89% of which would go to the bottom half with the top half only getting 11%. The bottom fifth would gain approximately €200 million. We are talking about significant amounts of money, which shows the opportunity presented in this year's budget. We have significant resources available. It is not as if we would be taking the money from one group and giving it to another. We would simply be taking the surplus and giving it to those who need it most.

My next series of slides assesses the impact on relative income poverty. The first slide shows the current scale of relative income poverty in society. That are three different lines, namely, 50% of the median income — as Ms Johnson stated earlier this is approximately €180 — 60% and 70%. Some 10% of people are below the 50% line, 23% are at 60% and 29% are at 70%.

Moving on to the next slide, we look at the impact of our budget proposals on income poverty. This, again, is compared with a wage-indexed budget. At the 50% line, there is a drop of 2%. The latter is the equivalent of 20%. Those two percentage points are a drop of one fifth in the total number below that line. That is a significant reduction and it would take one budget to achieve it. At the 60% line, the reduction would be approximately 1.5 percentage points. At the 70% line, it would be just under 1%. Clear results are emerging in respect of relative income poverty, which is our starting point and which forms the basis of orientation in terms of both what we are trying to achieve and the national poverty strategy.

How do our proposals compare with a more conventional budget where the same amount of money would be available but where it would be divided 50-50 between tax and welfare? The resources are shared out in a different way. This is illustrated in the next slide where we compare our proposals with a conventional budget. One could arrive at another budget and it could be compared with a conventional budget. Last year the share out of tax and welfare was 55% welfare to 45% tax. We are replicating that divide 50:50.

Combat Poverty proposals are much more favourable to those in respect of those on lower incomes. They will gain by up to 2.5% more than under a conventional budget. The middle three deciles are much the same. For the top deciles our proposals are not as generous as those that would be introduced in a conventional budget. Under our proposals, people on higher incomes would lose a small amount. A conventional budget would be the actual model if implemented last year.

The poverty impact of the Combat Poverty Agency proposals compared to a conventional budget is much stronger. At the 50% line, our proposals would reduce income poverty by 0.5%, at the 60% line by 1.2% and at the 70% line by approximately 0.5%. We are willing to compare our proposals with another set of proposals if the committee can come up with one.

Income poverty has to be taken seriously, especially in terms of its impact on children. There is a sense, given that the economy is doing well, that more people are working, that consistent poverty is falling and that we need not be too concerned about income poverty. This is a mistake because if it persists, income poverty will eventually create greater divisions in society. From a child poverty point of view, bringing up children in poverty is a life long sentence for which we will pay double and treble time. Not only will the children pay for it but society will pay in higher unemployment, poor health, more social delinquency. It is in our interests to address this issue. Tax-welfare policy is key to reducing income poverty. In other European countries the tax-welfare policy works better in reducing income poverty. Those countries would have the same market rate of income poverty but they work better than ours. We need to boost our social transfers to reduce income poverty, including child poverty.

Budget 2006-07 presents a no-pain opportunity to reduce income poverty but it must have a pro-welfare focus. If the resources are simply shared out 50:50 between tax and welfare, the opportunity will be missed. Our proposals have a clear poverty impact compared to alternative. We can stand over that in saying our proposals clearly deliver in terms of policy outcomes. We have suggested some other policies, such as pre-school education, savings and pensions, which need to be implemented to achieve a long-term impact on poverty. There are both immediate and long-term welfare changes that will improve the situation in respect of pensioner and child poverty.

I welcome Ms Johnston and Mr. Walsh and thank them for their well researched and professional presentation. We could discuss the issues in question for weeks but I will deal with only a few points.

There has been ongoing debate about the measure that should be used in regard to poverty. The document provided by the delegation refers to relative income poverty and consistent poverty. When I raise this issue with the Minister, he says the former acknowledges that some are richer than others and stresses that everybody is better off. He seems to dismiss the idea of relative income poverty in order to concentrate on consistent poverty. Will the delegates, who have expertise in this area, say which measure deserves our main focus? Most European states focus on relative income poverty but Ireland has concentrated on consistent poverty, which is a lower figure and probably better from the Government's perspective. It is important that we know how statistics are measured and which is the better method for doing so.

In devising its proposals, has the Combat Poverty Agency taken account of the recent rises in fuel costs, including oil, electricity and gas, which are undoubtedly affecting those in poverty? The delegates spoke about the need for improved welfare provision, particularly in regard to the fuel allowance but without providing any figures. Do the delegates believe there should be an expansion of the period during which the fuel allowance is provided, as well as an increase in the amount? I contend both changes are required.

The qualified adult allowance has been under discussion for some time. Representatives of some interest groups maintain that it is discriminatory against women in particular and should be abolished in favour of a system whereby everyone receives equal payments. What is the delegation's view on this? It was previously called the dependent relative allowance but was changed to its current, more politically correct, designation some time ago. There is a school of thought which argues that it should be changed totally and that we should individualise the social welfare system.

The delegation observed that there is a possibility that family income supplement, FIS, and the back to school clothing and footwear allowance will be amalgamated into one payment. We await the Minister's proposals in this regard. Has the Combat Poverty Agency any research to indicate the take-up of these allowances, which anecdotal evidence suggests is low? The Minister agrees that these two schemes in particular are not being availed of by all those entitled to do so because, as the delegation mentions in its document, they are difficult to access for many families and there is a lack of knowledge in regard to entitlements. What can be done to improve the take-up in the short term while we await the Minister's promised plan to amalgamate the allowances available under these separate schemes into one targeted payment? Does the delegation believe such an amalgamation is the best approach?

The figures provided by the delegation on the numbers of working poor are interesting. How does it define "working poor"? I assume the figure of 160,000 includes not only individual workers but their dependants. It has been argued that some of those among the working poor would be better off leaving paid employment and availing of the various welfare supports and benefits. This is how the poverty trap kicks in. The Tánaiste, when she was Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment told us people are better off because so many are working. Would the Combat Poverty Agency agree that, for people working in this category, the pressures and strains are enormous, particularly when child care is taken into account? Can it tell us how it envisages the vouched child care disregard working in practice? Will people be given actual vouchers and receipts? The idea of tying it in with FIS is interesting.

In its submission the Combat Poverty Agency states that poor people are at triple the risk from social exclusion from school, from their peers and from social and cultural norms, which is true. It is desirable to break the cycle of poverty early through education, including pre-school education.

The submission does not mention third level grants. Does the Combat Poverty Agency regard them as adequate? Can it comment on the administration of these grants? In my experience — colleagues may have similar experiences — often if there is even a small anomaly in an application the applicant may not get the grant until he or she has completed a full year. As a payment may not arrive until the following June, people are under financial pressure all year long when they should have had the grant in their hands in September or October. If education is the way out of poverty, then this is a matter we should address.

As the tax year now begins in January, would it be feasible to carry out much of the administrative work related to grant applications earlier in the year so that by the time a student starts college, a family would know whether he or she would be entitled to a grant and could budget accordingly? I understand that is the case in other administrations. I cannot understand why the Department of Education and Science has to wait until July or August to send a scheme out to the VECs and county councils and then it is often Christmas or later when the money becomes due.

Has the Combat Poverty Agency any knowledge of the extent of credit problems being experienced by families, especially those on low incomes? Is it aware of levels of borrowing or whether the role of moneylenders is increasing or decreasing? I have heard frightening stories recently regarding the way moneylenders operate and the rates they charge. The impact it is having on poverty levels seems to build misery on misery.

Ms Johnston

On the question of which poverty measure is better, they measure different things and are all valid. Discussions are ongoing on our national anti-poverty strategy and national action plan as to which measure we should use. One proposal is for tiered measures, whereby we would use the consistent poverty measure, which measures low income and deprivation. It is a valid measure of severe deprivation. We have used that in our pre-budget submission publications.

The income poverty measure is useful for a number of reasons. It provides a European comparison. We do not have a consistent poverty measure yet across Europe because the different items one can be deprived of vary across countries, depending on whether one lives, for example, in the Mediterranean as opposed to near the Arctic. Those are variables but a comparison on income poverty can be made across countries. Income poverty is an integral part of the consistent poverty measure, as there is income and deprivation. If income poverty continues to increase and nothing is done, although there will be a subsequent time lag, consistent poverty will increase. Attention should be paid to this. The long-term implications of living on a low income mean that resources wear down. Therefore, a person may fall from income poverty to consistent poverty.

Both measures are valid but measure different things. One needs to understand what drives these changes. We should look at the distribution of income across the population. If the gap is widening between those on low incomes and higher incomes, this leads to a more divisive society, which we do not think is desirable. Income distribution should be examined and it must be ensured that people on low incomes do not become detached from those on higher incomes. Income may need to be redistributed. Other countries with lower levels of income poverty have lower levels of poverty and a more equal income distribution. Both measures are valid for different reasons.

We have mentioned fuel costs in our submission but not gone into the issue in detail. Something should be done about it because increases in fuel costs will become a severe hardship for a number of people. It is difficult from a budgetary point of view as this year's budget will propose policy changes that will only be implemented next year. This is too late. Something should be done about the fuel allowance now to improve the plight of people on low incomes and who are dependent on it. The allowance should be increased.

We have not considered expanding the time but we have taken into account the need to look at insulation in people's houses with regard to their heating systems. This is another important part of the equation. It is good to give more money to let people burn more fuel but it will not be efficient if the heat is going out windows and up chimneys. We are carrying out specific work on fuel poverty with Sustainable Energy Ireland and proposals will be forthcoming. However, action needs to be taken on this even before the budget.

With regard to the qualified adult allowance, it has been considered before, and there are many benefits to a more individualised system in principle. Ultimately, our view is that people should be able to qualify for payments in their own right. At present, a difference exists and it would be costly to the personal rate to improve it. The personal rate should not be reduced. The system should be gradually restructured so that people can claim benefits in their own right. In the meantime, we should attempt to improve the qualified adult rate.

I will allow Mr. Walsh speak in more detail about the working poor and FIS. With regard to proposals to have an amalgamated payment, sometimes referred to as the second-tier payment, we are in favour of such an approach. We fundamentally believe child benefit should continue as it is an important platform as a universal payment. For low income families it should be supplemented by an additional payment, which at present is the child dependant allowance. As Mr. Walsh outlined, it has been frozen and the balance has been tipped. Welfare families are hence relatively worse off.

FIS has take-up problems, as has been suggested, for low income working families. In order to redress those issues and improve the child dependant allowance, it should be combined with FIS and made payable in a more automatic way than the current system of application, which has led to low take-up. The National Economic and Social Council has carried out work on this topic but we have yet to see the details of its proposals. There is merit in that type of approach nonetheless.

On the issue of education grants, we do not have specific proposals but in the past we did some work, the results of which suggested the grants were not adequate. There is a great need to encourage those from low income backgrounds to access the third level education system. Access programmes have been introduced in colleges but there is still a lack of financial support. The administration of the grants has been a problem.

Mr. Walsh

In our approach to the budget our starting point is that payments for those in receipt of welfare payments should be indexed with wage growth. If that is not done, they will fall behind those at work. Welfare payments should beindexed with wage growth of 4.3% which is higher than inflation. In one sense higher living standards are factored in already. Some groups receive an additional 4.5% to 5%, which gives a total increase of approximately 8%. We are benchmarking on wage growth, not inflation.

On the take-up of family income supplement and child dependant allowances, one should not be surprised at the low take-up of child dependant allowances as applicants have to apply under a different system and there is much bureaucracy. To simplify matters the clothing and footwear allowance should be paid with the child dependant allowance. It should be paid automatically. For those who may not be eligible there should be a top-up payment. Why have a second system if there is one already in place? Approximately 50% of those eligible for family income supplement claim 65% to 70% of the total available resources. Why are there separate systems for child dependant allowance and family income supplement? That is what the United Kingdom has tried to do. Most of those who end up in receipt of family income supplement have moved from welfare payments. Why stop one payment and start another?

There is a stigma issue. That is the reason we refer to a child benefit supplement. Everyone appreciates child benefit, of which there is 100% take-up. If this can be presented as a child benefit supplement, in respect of which there would be an automatic entitlement, even though targeted at those on relatively low incomes, it would travel well up the income scale. If something is automatic, people have no problem in claiming it.

The next issue is whether one can use Revenue receipts records to identify those who would be eligible. Some changes need to be made to improve the system. A smooth transition would help.

Our definition of the working poor is the same as that used in speaking about poverty generally — 6% below median income. There are people on very low incomes and we do not distinguish between them because they may be unemployed, a lone parent or working. That they are all on low incomes is the common mark between them. The key issue for the working poor is whether they have dependants because one is paid as a worker, not for one's dependants. FIS plays a role but is not working adequately. Many of the people to whom I refer are part-time workers but the issue is demoralising because it concerns severe poverty.

As regards the child care voucher, what we have in mind is that one would have a receipt to show that one was availing of child care. Therefore, one would be able to use it as a disregard for the family income supplement. For example, if one had a voucher for child care costing €100 per week, it would boost one's FIS threshold. As FIS is paid on the basis of 60c per euro, one would receive €60 if one paid the full cost. However, it would have to be vouched for because FIS is primarily open to couples. Therefore, it would have to be demonstrated that people were actually incurring child care costs.

The administration of such a scheme could be awkward due to holidays and school breaks. That is why I posed the question.

Mr. Walsh

I suppose it is a question of finding the best thing we can do, but the point is that we want to target low-income working households.

I compliment Ms Johnston and Mr. Walsh for their presentations which were up to their normal excellent standard. They were of great benefit to us. I would like to bring one aspect of the matter to their attention.

We are discussing poverty in the wider community, but it can be somewhat confusing for people other than statisticians. Terms such as "relative poverty", "consistent poverty" and "income poverty" have been mentioned, which raise three dimensions of the overall concept. We are addressing the whole population, some of whom may be well off. Therefore, it would be better to know where we stand in this regard. We should know what we are talking about and have a standard to which we could all relate in order to make a case. While it may be relevant, it may also be confusing to introduce a term such as income poverty because the Minister may throw it aside and refer instead to the term that suits him best.

After getting that point off my chest I want to make a few comments on the Combat Poverty Agency's presentation. The agency's representatives said they did not think tax relief for pre-school education was the preferred option. Will they comment briefly on this point?

As politicians, we all come across the rent supplement issue, although I did not see it mentioned in the presentation. Problems have arisen in this regard for low-income earners and those who are trying to move out of the poverty trap into community employment schemes, in so far as they are being excluded from obtaining a rent supplement. The Combat Poverty Agency might use its position to raise such issues with the Minister. We will also do so, in our own way.

I would not disagree with Mr. Walsh's presentation in terms of how the cake should be distributed. With a general election due to be held within 18 months, I doubt whether the Government will change the distribution pattern affecting higher and particularly middle-income earners.

Ms Johnston

I agree that the definitions of poverty are complicated. In talking to people in general it is preferable to focus on a more straightforward message, which might be that 10% of the population could be said to be living in consistent or severe poverty. People can understand what that means. What we propose to do about it is more important. Our proposals, particularly the main ones, are clear. When proposing policy changes, it is necessary to argue more strongly to show the justification for such changes, which is where we enter the debate in showing the effects of changes to one group but not to another. Without paying attention to those in a particular group they will end up in a particular place in the longer term, which is the reason for the distinctions I mentioned. It is a slightly more sophisticated argument in terms of policy changes and their impact. I agree it can seem complicated.

We are not recommending tax relief for pre-school education as, from a poverty perspective, people on low incomes will not necessarily benefit from tax relief. It is important, however, to have some contribution towards child care costs for those who are working, particularly if they are on low incomes. However, the focus should be more on the children in those households. Particularly in low-income households, that additional support is sometimes needed. This support should not be provided through tax relief, as they would not benefit from such relief.

Mr. Walsh may want to add to my comments on rent supplement. We agree this scheme has represented a big poverty trap. It has meant people find it difficult to take up work, as they would lose their rent supplement. Others cannot avail of schemes because of it. There are proposals to accommodate those in receipt of rent supplement in local authority housing. While we agree with the direction of such proposals, we acknowledge the difficulties in provision in some areas, as the houses are not available, not of the right size or may not be near facilities for children, etc. Much work remains to be done before this matter is addressed.

I will let Mr. Walsh respond to the question about the distribution of the cake.

Mr. Walsh

We all agree, including the Minister, that poverty is defined relative to the living standards of society. It is a question of how to measure it. It can be measured indirectly through income, which is valid and the measure used by the European Union. It can be measured directly in terms of living standards. Consistent poverty measures both income and deprivation. Consistent poverty has an income component.

The issue of income is important. Being income poor for a few years will run down a person's resources and increase the risk of deprivation. The deprivation items are being changed and there are likely to be new items, giving a new definition of poverty. The definition is relative in the question of what is the measure. I expect agreement will soon be reached that each of the measures is important. We cannot pick one because we feel it is the easiest or best one to use.

The Deputy asked about tax relief for child care. The priority on child care is to provide more of it. From a child poverty perspective, a key focus is giving every three to four year old child pre-school access. That would help with child care, in terms of ability to work, but primarily it would benefit children. This is the first priority.

Regarding the costs associated with child care, the Government has grown the child benefit system as part of the solution. That was a correct decision. Tax relief in this area would primarily benefit one group, namely, higher income earners. The squeeze is on those on lower incomes because they are the people affected most by this issue. That is why we want a vouched child care system. If the Government then decided to contribute a little more to support child care, it should stick with child benefits targeted at the under fives. That is the fairest approach and is equitable between different households. Tax relief would first benefit the better-off and is likely to be eaten up by the cost of child care provision. Therefore, it would be a waste of resources.

We talk of rent supplement in terms of work benefits. We talk of medical card eligibility, the issue of differential rents and that of rent supplements. These too affect the working poor because when one gets a particular benefit, one suddenly loses an entitlement to something else. Rent supplement has the strongest effect in this area because the loss involved is the most dramatic. We recommend this be addressed in terms of providing a disregard.

Regarding income distribution, we are not attempting to penalise those on low and middle incomes or to take resources from any category. Even the better-off categories are retaining their position. Those on middle incomes are getting a little more and those on lower incomes are getting the most.

We could show the committee a diagram illustrating the budgets and benefits for the period 1998 to 2002 which would show the substantial gains at the other end. In one sense, we are trying to catch up. However, even a 1% increase for the fifth, sixth and seventh deciles represents €4 or €5 weekly, because 1% of a higher income is worth 2% or 3% of a much lower income. In cash terms they are still getting something out of it.

I disagree with the witness but thank him for his remarks.

I welcome the Combat Poverty Agency representatives and congratulate them on their great work.

People in a constant poverty trap are nearly always the unemployed, widows or those on some type of social welfare. We must somehow get those people back to work. As a result of the social welfare policy, they are caught in many traps. For example, a young widow might be on a means tested pension. If she decides to return to work, she will probably lose that pension. Such people should be allowed to earn a certain amount of money while continuing to draw the widow's pension because many of them would be very eligible for work yet find themselves in such a trap. Single mothers can find themselves in a similar situation. I know they are allowed to earn a certain amount before losing their benefits but that amount should be increased. We should continue to encourage them to get back into the workplace because we live in a country with very low unemployment.

What do the witnesses think about community employment schemes? Should they be made available to anyone willing to participate? Is it better to have people doing some work for which they feel they get some recognition and which might encourage them to return to the workplace? Working on some type of scheme might encourage them back into the workplace.

I wish to make two further points. Sometimes one finds that if there is an increase in social welfare of, for example, €10 and if the recipient is living in local authority rented accommodation, €5 of that might taken from them the next day in increased rent. Something must be done to ensure that if recipients get an increase of €10, they will be as well off as the person who is not living in a local authority house. The current and previous Ministers should be complimented for ensuring that one can have €20,000 capital and still receive a full old age pension. This encourages people to save. It might not be possible for everybody to have savings but there is now the encouragement. It was not there previously. There was no point saving because when people went looking for their pension, they lost out when they had savings.

I compliment the Combat Poverty Agency on its great work.

Ms Johnston

The Deputy made some important points about how the social welfare system impacts on individuals and affects the choices they make. The Deputy spoke about lone parents, widows and so forth. There are a number of issues relating to their interaction with the social welfare system. A group of officials in the Department of Social and Family Affairs is examining this. I believe the group will bring forward proposals relating to lone parents but whether they will be accepted and implemented is subject to debate. However, work is being done on this matter. We hope the proposals will at least be debated, if not immediately implemented.

There is a role for community employment schemes. They have suffered in the past from trying to be all things to all people. They were put forward as back to work schemes and were, perhaps, less successful in that regard than some other schemes. They received some bad press as a result. Certainly, community employment schemes are important for people who have been unemployed for a long time in terms of their returning to the labour force. They have got people back into a routine and doing useful work and have been important for those with disabilities, the long-term unemployed and lone parents. They could, however, be improved in terms of how people move on from community employment to something else. Often when a scheme ends, people have nowhere else to go. The position should be examined in that regard. Community employment schemes also provide an important service in many local communities. Whether those services could be provided in another way is still open to question. The community employment schemes have a role if some of the disincentive effects are improved.

I agree that we must examine the impact of increasing social welfare in terms of local authority housing, waste charges and other increases and how they, in turn, affect people's social welfare benefits. We are examining those issues.

I call finally on an old sparring partner of all visitors to this committee, namely, Deputy Ring.

I will be brief.

I am glad to hear that.

I welcome our visitors. It is only fair to point out that they have been too soft on the Government. This year the agency should have reminded the Government of the broken promise of 2001 regarding child benefit. That should have been the first item in the budget submission. The agency did not mention it in the report. The agency will have to be stronger next year. There will be a new Government and I might even be a Minister but we must wait and see what happens.

The agency mentioned medical cards in its report. A husband and wife with one child and an income of €170 do not qualify for a medical card. That is not right and does not make sense. The agency will have to be stronger on this issue. The medical card means more to a family than all the direct payments they receive. I estimate that a medical card is worth €1,500 to a family per year on the basis that if there are two or three children, when one child gets sick everybody in the house gets sick.

This issue was brought home to me for the first time when a constituent called to my clinic recently. The person in question was previously on a back to work scheme. He is now in full employment and brings home approximately €400. He has two children who have not yet obtained employment and who are dependent on him. The family does not qualify for a medical card. The man suffers from a back complaint and last week his wife could not go to the chemist because she owed him €30 from the previous visit to the doctor, although the chemist would not have put pressure on her. The man was in desperate pain and had to go to the doctor but could not afford to fill his prescription. A medical card would be worth a lot to people such as these and the issue must be pressed more strongly.

The Combat Poverty Agency might consider investigating the issue of foster care and including it in its submissions next year. I intend to table an amendment to the Social Welfare Bill when it comes before the Dáil. I was made aware of a situation where four children who were orphaned in the past two years did not qualify for the back to school clothing and footwear scheme. The health board would not give them a one-off payment and argued that the foster care payment was sufficient. Who needs such payments the most? If that family of four children, with the eldest sister looking after them, could not qualify for the back to school clothing scheme, then nobody should qualify. I ask the Combat Poverty Agency to examine this issue and make recommendations to the Minister that such people should, regardless of income, be included in the aforementioned scheme.

I agree with the Combat Poverty Agency's views on the fuel allowance. Our climate is such that the allowance should be payable all year round. I have analysed this proposal and it will not cost the Government a fortune to extend the allowance. I urge the Combat Poverty Agency to make a recommendation on the fuel allowance to the Minister. Elderly people look for two things in their homes, namely, heat and safety. The amount that people receive from October to April should be examined and the allowance should be payable for the full 52 weeks of the year.

I ask the representatives to comment on articles in today's newspapers in which it is stated that Minister referred to the option of either taxing child benefit or means testing it. I would be concerned about such proposals and how they might affect some women who may have very rich but mean husbands. Many women depend on child benefit to provide for their children. I am alarmed and I am sure that the Combat Poverty Agency has conducted research into this matter.

I understand that the organisation does not want to be too political and simply wants to make recommendations. Many of the issues in this year's report have been raised by me in the past but the organisation has put them more delicately than I would have done and perhaps there are good reasons for that. However, I must say that the organisation does a very good job and some of the documentation I have received from it this year was excellent and very helpful to me as a politician. Perhaps the committee should invite the Combat Poverty Agency to the Oireachtas more often to discuss issues well ahead of the organisation's budget submission. That is a weakness of this committee that should be addressed. The organisation has an input into Government policy and the committee should be engaging with it before it makes its submission.

To reiterate the point on child benefit, I hope women will be protected. Some husbands might be very rich but their wives may not be in receipt of money from them. Child benefit is the one payment that is directed at children. I wish to stress to the Minister and the Government that they should keep their hands off that payment.

Some of my colleagues have referred to poverty and the Minister argues that there are different interpretations of the term. However, poverty is poverty. If a person does not have a euro on Wednesday morning for lunch for children going to school or cannot afford a loaf of bread on Thursday evening, that is poverty.

The Minister has spoken about a report on lone parents. I do not know how he will deal with that issue, which is not a simple one. Ms Johnston made an interesting observation with regard to lone parents and I hope there are no plans to take money from them. Two people, both of whom are 17 years old and had babies before completing their leaving certificate, approached me in the past month. They are both attending college now and are seeking child care but their community welfare officers will not give them any assistance towards either child care or rent. If we are serious about lone parents, about getting them back into the education system, out of the social welfare system and giving them a chance, then this cannot be right. Surely, if a young girl makes a mistake but wants to bring her baby to college with her and has the courage and guts to do so, the system must do something for her. Perhaps the Combat Poverty Agency might highlight this situation because it is wrong. These two people are trying to educate themselves to avoid falling into a poverty trap. People caught in a poverty trap depend on organisations such as the Combat Poverty Agency which should not be afraid to rattle the Government's cage.

The Deputy will make himself redundant.

It does not matter. The Government might listen to that organisation more than it listens to us.

These were observations for the future.

Ms Johnston

I thank members for their comments which are well received. We address a number of the issues raised in our submission. The example of foster care payments is well received. We are saying the payment should be made automatically to deal with child poverty. We will take on board the comments made.

On the lone parent issue, I have been involved in some of the discussions held. Getting lone parents back to work is important in the long term but there are much more immediate issues such as education, training and child care which must form part of any package devised.

Mr. Walsh

This is the first presentation of our pre-budget submission. As such, we are open to going back a step because there is merit in it. Perhaps the new target in respect of child benefit should be €160.

On the doctor only medical card, we suggest there should be a lower threshold for eligibility for a drugs cost refund, which might be irrelevant for the person about whom we have been speaking. However, as this has not happened, we must wait to see how the issue pans out. The other points were very well made also.

I, too, welcome Ms Johnston and Mr. Walsh who made a very good presentation. I support their views on the provision of medical cards for children. At many fora I have made the argument that a sick child should have a medical card, irrespective of whether his or her parents are middle or higher-income earners. Children who become ill on a regular basis, particularly in the winter, with asthma and bronchitis, etc., must attend a doctor and then obtain medication from the chemist. As anyone with a family is aware, inhalers are very expensive. Some cost in the region of €95 or €96. Such children should have a medical card, which would be of significant benefit to their parents. I do not think the cost to the Exchequer would be great. I know parents who do not want a medical card for themselves, but a medical card for one or two children who become ill on a continuous basis would be of great benefit. The same applies to parents on lower incomes.

I concur fully with what other speakers said about the fuel allowance. Heaters should be installed in houses for elderly people, particularly in rural areas. Elderly people should have free electricity because very often they are not able light a fire.

I note that child care is being given priority. I am not sure, however, how the issue will be dealt with and I have my own thoughts on the matter. I hope we do not become immersed in a sea of bureaucracy employing people and constructing buildings which will not be used. I hope the issue will pan out properly in order that the people rather than bureaucrats will benefit.

Mr. Walsh

A few queries have been raised, particularly in regard to the need for further research. I refer to three studies we are conducting. Deputy Stanton referred to the issue of moneylending but we are conducting a study with the financial regulator of financial exclusion and how people have access to bank accounts. That is a stepping stone and it might be of interest. We also funded and published a study recently on access to moneylenders compared with credit unions and whether credit unions could take initiatives to compete better with them. It contains interesting ideas.

A number of members mentioned fuel poverty. Deputy Stanton referred to equipment and capital funding. We are about to conduct a study of the effectiveness of the low income warm home scheme, under which Sustainable Energy Ireland is implementing preventive measures in houses. We can examine how effective it is in terms of incomes and health outcomes. Perhaps we can come back to the committee to discuss the study when it is under way.

The issues of health and access to medical cards and so on in meeting people's needs have been highlighted. We hope to begin a study of the health needs of people on low incomes and how effective is the medical card scheme in giving them access to general practitioner and related services. It will be an interesting study which we hope will shed some light on these matters.

I congratulate Mr. Walsh and Ms Johnston on their presentation. While I agree with everything that has been said, I support, in particular, Deputy Stanton's comments on back to college student grants. Students are belittled as they must run around from public representative to public representative to pursue their grants. A central agency should be established to deal with them. It is an abuse which should be rectified.

As usual, we have had a useful and valuable meeting and a fine interchange of ideas. I thank Ms Johnston, Mr. Walsh and their support team for giving of their time. They have shown respect for a committee, which is not always forthcoming. They launched their pre-budget submission before the committee, for which I am grateful. Groups such as theirs, particularly those advising the Government, should appear before the relevant committee and, at least, acknowledge its existence. We are extremely grateful that the agency has pioneered this process which we hope will be a forerunner for all committees. It is easy to contact the Minister but we are often left to pick up the submissions made by groups in the following day's newspapers. We take umbrage at the groups which do this sometimes. It displays a callous disregard for a committee whose function is to evaluate various policy proposals.

We are grateful to the representatives of the agency for being the first to launch a pre-budget submission at a committee meeting. They are receptive to our ideas. Perhaps they could appear before the committee next June or July and, as Deputy Ring said, bring forward ideas. Sometimes committee members have mad ideas and, as professionals, it is the duty of the delegation to trim our sails. I am aware that the agency has an advisory role to the Government. Perhaps it could widen its remit to incorporate an advisory role to the committee. Sometimes members have madcap ideas as we feel we are in contact with the people and that some of our ideas would have an effect. They may be of mutual benefit to the agency and committee members and a symbiotic relationship may develop. The committee may initiate an idea that sounds daft initially but may result in something pertinent in the long term as we attempt to eradicate the menace of poverty. Despite our wealth, poverty has almost become endemic and is increasing. The agency can only provide advice for whoever is in power. Perhaps Deputy Ring is stepping into the ring.

I am sure there will be two of us.

Whoever is in power should pay more attention to the policy of the agency. I appreciate that its presentation has weighted preferences in respect of policy areas. I support this. It is time for those who have done well in the past decade to take responsibility for this problem. When they are not losing anything, they should not continue to gain proportionately more than those at the bottom end of the scale. Lip service is of no use. Contributions and action are required from everyone, including the committee.

I thank the delegation and look forward to meeting its members again, possibly in June or July, at which point we can have a two-way discussion on further proposals. The results and analysis of the three studies to which Mr. Walsh referred will be important to our work, as part of which we intend to evaluate systems in other countries. This could be compared with the findings of Mr. Walsh's empirical research. Perhaps the agency will notify us when the studies have been completed. I, again, thank the delegation and hope it will continue its excellent work.

The joint committee went into private session at 4.40 p.m.and adjourned at 4.50 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 18 October 2005.

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