I welcome Mr. Seamus Boland, chief executive officer of Irish Rural Link, Mr. Martin Smyth, chairman, and Dharragh Hunt, policy communication officer. I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege, but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses who appear before the committee. While it is generally accepted that witnessses such as yourselves would have qualified privilege, the committee is not in a position to guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it.
Rural Development Strategy 2007-13: Discussion with Irish Rural Link.
I thank the Chairman and the committee for meeting us to exchange ideas on rural development. My colleague, Mr. Boland, will make the opening presentation.
Mr. Seamus Boland
We appreciate the opportunity to come before the committee. We have submitted some material to the committee outlining the role of Irish Rural Link. We have a strong interest in the rural development strategy and we compliment those involved in its preparation. By any standard, it is an important and comprehensive document, produced at a pivotal point in terms of rural development. We note the obligations of the strategy to adhere to the European Union's regulations and strategic guidelines, as well as honouring the Lisbon Agenda. We welcome the threefold increase in the budget available specifically for rural development issues but we have some issues around that. According to the figures from the Department of Agriculture and Food, a breakdown of which members will see in the documentation, a total of €7 billion has been proposed but only €425 million is for rural development. As we have said at this forum and others, there is a necessity for agriculture and farming to receive money because they need it and would be in trouble without it. However, it is called a rural development national strategy and to provide only €425 million for rural development reflects an unbalanced approach. It is, in reality, a farm support plan. There will be a review in 2008 and Irish Rural Link will make it clear that this imbalance is not beneficial in the long term for the sustainability of rural Ireland.
The Irish Rural Link strategic plan, which we spent last year producing, highlights a number of rural issues including the following: the narrow economic base of many rural areas; the ongoing restructuring of agriculture; developing the potential of rural areas as a source of energy and as leisure destinations; the role and effect of planning for and within rural areas; addressing regional inequalities and geographical peripherality; and the problem of rural disadvantage in Border counties. Those issues are not new to members but all emerged during a widespread national discussion in which we met various groups and conducted a number of telephone polls, among other things.
I draw members' attention to the ex ante report and ask that they read it as it makes some interesting observations. One such observation is that there is an underlying assumption that interventions are mainly implemented via farmers who are seen as central to the rural economy, notwithstanding the decline in farm numbers. It states that this is especially true in respect of axes 1 and 2 and is consistent with the regulation. In respect of axis 3, the interventions are more applicable to the wider rural community. The report states that we are putting our eggs in one basket by deciding that the rural economy and its way of life can only be supported in one way. We have no problem with farming receiving supports but feel this is an opportunity to approach it from a wider perspective.
The strategy states that 59% of our total population live in the area covered by the plan. If they are to benefit from the plan they can only do so if there is a strong, vibrant rural economy. That must be complemented by full accessibility to basic social services such as health care. If 59% of the population benefit from the rural strategy, the fact that between no more than 120,000 and 135,000 farms make applications to the scheme seems to represent a strange imbalance.
In conclusion, the strategy clearly focuses on the application of measures geared towards resolving many of the problems faced by farmers throughout Europe. In Ireland these problems have been well documented in a range of reports published in recent years, such as the Foresight report. Rural areas are still dominated by the usage of land and the preponderance of smallholdings remains extremely high. Unfortunately, in the global economy which we now inhabit, such holdings are no longer viable in economic terms.
The plan clearly adopts a policy to continue as before in supporting, by subsidy in one form or another, the continuation of farming. Even though it cannot survive without subsidisation, to the tune of 90%, which I think is even higher in the latest figures, it could be argued that staying with a failed and, in the long term, unsustainable model, without considering real and long-term solutions, is a weakness of the plan. There is little doubt that such large-scale assistance is required now and in the medium-term but failure to examine some real alternatives must be seen as a significant weakness.
We have listed a number of other weaknesses which we will happily discuss with members.
Mr. Boland can leave the documents with us and we will study them.
Mr. Boland
The last two pages of the submission contain some of our recommendations, which we forwarded to the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, as well as the Department of Agriculture and Food. The recommendations had to be submitted within a narrow format, though we would have preferred a wider format.
Irish Rural Link appreciates the opportunity to come before the committee. It is an organisation which, as members will be aware, has existed since 1991. We represent, at times, an alternative view of rural Ireland but we see this as an opportunity to develop sustainable communities in Ireland, which is our mission.
I welcome the witnesses and thank them for their comprehensive presentation. I have a number of questions. This committee is mainly concerned with the Department of Social and Family Affairs. We deal with the work of that Department and monitor the schemes it administers. The fight against poverty and social exclusion is linked to our work and I have been trying for some time to get figures on the extent of rural poverty. The Combat Poverty Agency has decided to carry out some research in that area, which has not been undertaken for some time. Irish Rural Link might have some insights into the extent of rural poverty.
What are the delegation's views on the closure of rural post offices? Has Irish Rural Link considered the devolution of more powers to local government to bring about decentralisation in a real way, about which there has been much discussion? The rural transport initiative is referred to in the documentation, as is the idea of vouchers for hackney cabs. For those purposes, what is rural and what is not and where are the lines drawn? Older people are increasingly isolated in rural areas. What are the delegation's views on that issue?
The presentation referred to balanced regional development and enterprise but that is more relevant to another Department. Unemployment rates of 4.3% were pointed to, as was the fact that there were still blackspots in rural areas. What are the delegation's views on that issue? Do people in rural areas suffer greater social disadvantage than those in urban areas? We have been told of a lack of services in rural areas compared with urban areas. People are further away from services and find them harder to access.
Child care in rural areas has also been put to us as an issue. Mr. Boland also mentioned the need to rural-proof priorities and policies. How would he see that being done? Youth services are non-existent in many rural areas and Mr. Boland also adverted to the increased need for Garda services in rural areas.
Mr. Boland
I may call on Mr. Dharragh Hunt from time to time for answers on the questions relating to poverty. On the issue of vouchers, we are floating for discussion the fact that many people in rural Ireland are not close to public transport of any description. Many people get these passes and they might as well have rupees or Afghanistan currency as it really means nothing. People consider the cost first and foremost but I would argue we should first look at the principle. A fuel allowance is given, for example.
I accept the principle but how does Irish Rural Link differentiate in practice between people living in a rural and isolated area and those living closer to a town? Where is the line drawn? At what point does it stop giving out vouchers?
Mr. Boland
I may not have the full answer but I will at least put forward some ideas. Most people who live in CLÁR areas are living in what would be regarded as a rural area and this could provide the parameter. I would not have a problem with the same scheme being available to people in urban areas. If it is only to be implemented in rural areas, then the CLÁR parameter could be used. It would be difficult to argue that CLÁR covers urbanised areas because it does not. This is one proposal which I put forward. The reasonable availability of public transport could be another parameter but this might be complicated. I would start with the CLÁR areas.
On the question of the unemployment figures, in July 2005 in Deputy Cowley's constituency in the north west, 2,000 jobs disappeared in a weekend. The type of industry that remains in rural areas is the traditional type industry which is either low paid or has a future on a different continent because of the cost structure. Given that there are technology institutes in these regions, I would argue that taking into consideration the lack of expenditure in the last national development plan — and I was a member of the monitoring committee — we come out very badly in the area of research and development. One of the reasons for this was that the moneys were not claimed. In order to claim the moneys, a viable third level sector is required.
The problem with the regional institutes of technology was that they did not seem able, nor it was not possible for them, to claim this money. Our figures indicate that the research and development spend was as low as 30%, meaning an underspend of 70%. This is a shocking statistic.
The BMW region is the one region that requires serious alternative economies in order to function. The innovation report published by the BMW regional assembly showed a clear migration of expertise, particularly of young people with third level education, from the western region to the eastern region. This is against the principles of regional balance. The only way to address this is to give the institutes of technology the wherewithal to claim that kind of money and to engage seriously in alternative research, otherwise that kind of migration pattern will continue. Unemployment will be a problem in that region until we address the rather traditional industry that is left in the region and which is not sustainable.
There is a lack of child care in rural Ireland. This is more to do with the situation in small villages. Good child care facilities are being built in the bigger towns. For instance, Kinnegad has a big facility as have other towns and this is to be welcomed. However, for the 40% of the population living in the dispersed settlement pattern, it is the case that a person going to work travels in one direction to this massive child care facility and then in the other direction to the workplace.
It would be preferable if relatives or people in the village or the local area were able to set up a child care facility much nearer to where people live. This would be more informal and trustworthy for parents. Because of the patterns of work which now exist — two working parents in a household — we will need to deal with this child care situation.
We are very disappointed with the way the Hanly report was handled. One could argue that the Hanly report was offering certain guarantees in terms of regionalisation of health services and acute care but on the other hand it recommended the closure of some services — those in Monaghan being the main example. It recommended closing down what might not be required but prior to an alternative being put in place.
People are travelling long distances for cancer and other care which is not acceptable given their condition. In the regions where people may need emergency attention or treatment for a heart condition, they live too far from centres which offer meaningful treatment. The Hanly report only went half way. The fact that it is no longer even alive means we have the worst of all situations. We have no rural health policy and this must be addressed.
The question of post offices is a long-standing and ongoing issue. We criticised An Post in the past for having no alternative strategy other than to close down the weaker links. It can be argued that it should sort out its financial situation without having to close rural post offices. When Mary O'Rourke was Minister she promised on "Morning Ireland" and in a Government policy document that wherever a post office closed, another Government presence would be put in place. This has not been a successful venture as it did not happen every time.
Some good work was done where post offices were given a remit to take on other services such as banking. This seemed to be a way forward to at least preserve the entity within an area but now it seems that An Post's latest review means this approach will be ignored. We regard a post office, credit union or bank in a local area as a symbol of that area's health. Once they close there is something seriously wrong with that area. If a post office is to be closed, there should be plans for something to replace it in order to provide local public services.
I will ask Mr. Hunt to speak about the poverty statistics. We had a rural-proofing strategy but it has not developed in the way it should. There are still opportunities and we have put forward proposals for rural-proofing to be carried out, not in a dogmatic or almost religiously detailed way, but in a very simple way whereby Departments could co-ordinate and bring forward initiatives in a region that would suit that region and not displace other aspects of the local economy or culture. This could be done by the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs.
I was involved in youth service work in my early working life. There are only two rural disadvantaged youth services, in County Tipperary and in County Leitrim. The spending on youth policy is skewed towards urban areas, which are defined as towns with a population of over 12,000, according to the Department of Education and Science which administers the policy. We have argued consistently that a rural youth service does not currently exist in any meaningful way and that the rules governing youth projects should be changed from a rural perspective. That would be rural-proofing in practice, if it happens. We argue strongly it should happen.
On community policing and policing generally, the situation is reminiscent of the effect of the Hanly report in that we have closed down many rural Garda stations. Perhaps there is much good advice in this regard from a policing perspective, but in closing them down we effectively took away the confidence of people in terms of security. If one attends the meetings we organise, one would know rural communities still long for the rural Garda station. I have heard the policing arguments in favour of closing them but I argue that this does not give confidence to rural communities, which feel strongly that they do not have a proper police service. Perhaps this is just a perception, but that perception exists.
Mr. Dharragh Hunt
It is correct that there is a dearth of research on rural poverty. A 2006 report by the Combat Poverty Agency identified counties where people were most likely to be at risk of poverty and, unsurprisingly, they were mainly in the BMW region, particularly the north west. Some secondary analysis is available, including a paper by Commins and another by Pringle from a Teagasc conference of 2002, which can be accessed on the Internet.
With regard to rural poverty, it is perhaps more useful to talk about rural social exclusion. I read an interesting paper today by Hickey and Frawley which contained an analysis of the distance people live from services. Any analysis of rural social exclusion needs to incorporate both material poverty and distance from vital social services.
I welcome the witnesses. This is a cause dear to my heart. As one who lived in an urban area, moving to live in a rural area opened my eyes. There are many good things about rural areas but, without being a Luddite and trying to hold onto the past, it is clear much that is wrong in our society can be traced to the growth of urbanisation and the demise of rural areas.
I agree with Irish Rural Link with regard to post offices, services and so on. Many years ago, I described a vicious circle whereby an area that loses services also loses population. The only way to break that vicious circle is to provide services, such as post offices, doctors' surgeries, Garda stations and so on. Who would want to live in an area where there is no protection from marauding criminals and where one cannot post a letter, send a child to school or access the services of a doctor? These are essential services that people in Dublin would take for granted but which people in rural areas have great difficulty accessing.
The question that must be asked is why this is happening. I grant there is a trend in Europe whereby rural areas have been denuded and people have moved to the cities and larger towns. Migration, not only emigration, has been a major factor. This is particularly noticeable in County Mayo, where people have moved to the larger towns. Far from protecting us from the excesses of urbanisation and the modern trend towards urbanisation, Government policy seems to be accelerating this process. One example of this is the situation with regard to rural post offices, which are not given the chance to be sustainable. They cannot be sustainable when they are being closed down by stealth. In my view, An Post is doing just that.
There is another agenda at work, namely, privatisation. The Government has very much taken the privatisation path. It is now often the case that if services are required, we hear mention of public private partnerships. As was touched on in the Irish Rural Link document, in a rural area such privatisation is not economically possible. If there are no services, even visitors will not stay — why would they? If people will not even visit an area, how can others be expected to live there? There must be certain minimum standards with regard to how far people should have to travel to access services, such as a doctor, schools and so on.
Planning is another important issue. I have seen important community initiatives lost to rural areas in favour of for-profit groups — I have personal experience of this. It seems a for-profit group will have a much better chance than a community enterprise in dealing with a local authority, such as Mayo County Council.
We have witnessed the sad, silent migration of older people to institutions. The granny was at the centre of life in rural Ireland and was very much part of the family unit. The cailleach was in the corner, which was very much the favoured position and the warmest place in the house, and that place was for granny. Nowadays, there is no room for granny in modern apartments. As I always said, there was no room for granny in the flat in Ballymun but, thank God, those flats have been demolished. There is often room for granny in urban houses but granny does not seem to fit into the equation any more.
When communities are trying to keep people at home, there is no support from the Government to ensure they can be kept in their own areas and can compete against the for-profit sector. A community looking after older people has much more to offer than a for-profit group. Without wishing to take from private nursing homes or other institutions like that, although many altruistic people work for them, their motive is to make a profit. This might be what is wrong with our society and a cause of many of the problems we are experiencing at present.
Another point is that if people cannot build a house in a rural area, what are the chances of that area succeeding? I accept there are valuable initiatives, such as CLÁR. With regard to tourism, however, my personal experience is that businesses throughout rural areas are having difficulty remaining in existence because they must pay the same rates as businesses on O'Connell Street. The footfall, as they say in the trade, is not the same. How can a hotel in O'Connell Street be compared with a hotel in a rural area? Some concession from Government is needed. We saw the Minister do this for the Shannon basin. I have often asked him to give some type of concession to rural areas, even if it was simply a remission of VAT or rates. He has not done this. All businesses have the same heating costs and so on. Why should they have to pay the same?
I would be interested to hear the view of Irish Rural Link on the points I have raised.
I agree with much of what has been said. I am a supporter of keeping all post offices open but local people will also have to support them, which is one of the key issues. Those coming up to pension age are more used to banks and seem to ignore post offices to an extent.
I agree with the comments on Garda stations and rural policing. I come from a rural area. When a garda was stationed in such an area, although he might not walk the whole parish, he knew exactly what was happening. When a garda must travel to an area, let us face it, he gets very little support because he does not know the people and they do not know him. That was a backward step.
The Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív, has done much for rural development, particularly through CLÁR. He has introduced successful initiatives, although I will not list them in case I am accused of simply promoting the Government. The rural transport scheme has been a major success in my area, whether it has been such a success in every area. The scheme in my area is operated by IRD Portumna along some ten routes, and brings elderly people to and from the towns during the day, two or three days per week. I have also been promoting the idea of a Nitelink bus service. It is not intended solely for pubs but for all social occasions and would help to bring elderly people into villages from remote areas.
The western rail corridor will open up many isolated areas. It will allow building in those areas and encourage people to live in them. If so much is wrong with rural Ireland, why do so many want to build houses there? I have lived there all my life and would not live anywhere else. It is the best life. Galway County Council has initiated the idea of allowing clusters of houses where there is a school, a pub and a shop. This policy will help to build up small villages. It is actually causing problems for some schools which now have unheard of numbers of applications. Much is happening but more needs to be done. I compliment Irish Rural Link on the work it is doing.
Deputy Cowley hit the nail on the head. The best way of looking after rural people who want to say within their own communities is to provide services for them. Their biggest problem is rural isolation. The rural transport initiative in County Westmeath is very successful and has played a major role in helping people to get to solicitors, doctors and other services. However, creeping privatisation has led to the public service aspects of matters being relegated. Government policy must be blamed for this. There is no point in paying lip service to the importance of the rural post office network when in the past two years a post office closed every ten days. It is nonsense to talk about making computer and banking services available in post offices. The "live horse and you will get grass" philosophy is alive and well in Ireland. Mr. Smyth is aware of this issue. There is not a post office between Mullingar and Castlepollard and none beyond Castlepollard until one reaches County Cavan. There used to be post offices in Monalea, Knockdrin, Milltown, Racondra and Moyvore. There is no point engaging in a self-deluding exercise. The game has passed us by and we are mere bystanders.
Mr. Boland referred to the travel pass. In many homes it used to be left behind the picture of the Sacred Heart and was black with smoke when it was occasionally taken down. Unless public transport is available, it is of no use. A voucher system which could be used in hackneys and taxis would be much more beneficial. The excellent service referred to by Deputy Callanan cannot be expected to serve people living at the end of a small boreen. We must be realistic. A voucher scheme would complement that service.
Deputy Stanton raised the question of child care. I am a director of a child care facility in Ballinacarrigy, County Westmeath. We held our annual general meeting last night. We work extremely hard in an area which is marginalised and disadvantaged. Everything is under threat. The Government has decided that from 2008, unless a child care facility is a commercial venture, its staffing grant may be at issue. The child care programme was an equal opportunities initiative. It ensured a lone parent who was trying to get back into the workforce would not be charged the commercial rate for child care. The new idea is that there must be a commercial element to the provision of such care. This will be the end of child care in rural communities. The Ballinacarrigy child care facility is very successful. It accommodates more than 30 children and we are considering adding a building to accommodate 60 children. We will provide child care for children from babies under six months to school pupils who will be cared for after school. We cannot charge parents €150 per week. If the Government wishes to preserve rural Ireland, it must recognise its social element and accept that a social cost must be paid.
Mr. Boland and Mr. Smyth know my views on planning regulations. I have been attacked in the media for my advocacy of one-off houses. If they are not permitted, who will look after a grandmother who lives on the family homestead in the absence of adequate rural transport. It is her son, daughter or niece who will take her to her doctor, for example. Urban clusters and so on are fine in theory. Some of these theories make no sense to people who live in the heart of rural Ireland.
Why should the Department of Social and Family Affairs introduce swipe cards and electronic transfers? It is another insidious way of ensuring the end of rural post offices. Every step is one along the way to saying goodbye.
The whole of Ballymahon through Elfeet, Barley Harbour and Newtown Cashel down to Lanesboro, where the Shannon is at its deepest and there is tremendous potential for development, has been left out of tourism development. How could anyone look at a map of the River Shannon and leave out this area? I went down to look at it because I could not believe this was the case.
I agree with rural proofing. Rural Ireland does not have a large population base. Therefore, if rates are to be imposed upon community child care facilities, they will have another cost and another reason to fail. A child care facility in a large urban centre might have some hope of diluting an extra cost. However, rates should be waived for community child care facilities, whether in an urban or rural area. A child care facility is the most important way of ensuring parents, including lone parents, can return to work or avail of training courses.
Representatives of the European Anti-Poverty Network addressed the committee on the rural development strategy. They expressed concern that the plan did not address the needs of the most marginalised in society. We discussed the issue of social exclusion in rural communities. What other initiative would Irish Rural Link like to see introduced to address this problem?
Mr. Smyth
I compliment the Chairman and the members of the joint committee on their understanding of rural issues. In the past ten years rural Ireland has changed to a degree that the Government and the urban public are not aware of. If we do not take action soon, the problem will be out of control. We must work together to decide what can be done. Rural partnerships are doing the job for which they were established but local authorities could have a bigger input because they are most closely involved in rural issues.
That is an interesting one.
Mr. Boland
As far as we are concerned, the overview should consider what is required for a sustainable rural community. I refer not to a community that will last for a few years, but to one in which people can see a future. I refer to a community at which young people can look and decide to live around because certain facilities are in place. As Deputy Cowley and the Chairman stated, if the post office is disappearing and if the basic requirements for a community begin to disappear, then the attractiveness of that community suddenly disappears as well. We would argue that one tackles the issue on economic and social levels.
We know that the economic basis of most rural communities is gone. The farming statistics are available. While the subsidies are a necessity, it is sad that we have got ourselves to that point. We would argue, for example, that bio-fuel which could be produced from agriculture will not solve all our problems. If a farmer produced a few acres for that purpose immediately, he or she might make good money but the problem would be selling it and whether one can obtain it from a petrol station. In other words, there is no distribution system.
We have argued for a commission, specially set up by Parliament or the Government, to sit for 12 months to look at the problem of creating an industry that would produce, process and distribute bio-fuel. The ideal time to have done that would have been when the beet factories closed and the tillage sector and related facilities existed. It was simply a matter of producing the industry to process it and the co-operatives would probably have been the best way to do so. However, I gather we will now fulfil our bio-fuel requirements through imports. This is an opportunity lost. Although there is €7 billion made available under this programme, hardly any of it is going into this area. We would argue strongly that bio-fuel presents an opportunity.
On social inclusion and exclusion, it is incredible that child care places will effectively be taxed. Unfortunately, as the Combat Poverty Agency and other agencies have continually pointed out, social exclusion in rural areas is invisible or is often unseen. However, the basic fact that the average farm wage is half the industrial wage — approximately €17,000 or less — gives one an idea that somebody is suffering. A farmer who is able to work and get a part-time job is fine but we know through well supported statistics that without the current construction boom we would be in a third phase of emigration on a massive scale. In other words, we have an unsustainable economy and are not asking the questions. There are facilities like Moorepark, various research and development agencies, and the institutes of technology with research capabilities but we do not seem to be using them. The economy needs to be sorted out.
Poverty exists, first, where people are not earning a living and, second, where people cannot earn a living because there are issues of dependency, disability, etc. Reference was made to the "granny". The reality is that if a job appeared in the morning, it would still be approximately 30 miles away from many living in rural isolated areas whose caring responsibilities would need to be sacrificed. Most of the poverty results from such difficulties.
Mr. Smyth mentioned the partnerships, etc. We think that in every rural area a care plan should be drawn up by the local authority, the partnership or both combined, to look at the needs in that area because I guarantee the poverty experienced is connected to the caring responsibilities which must be provided. That is one of the poverty areas.
As to this plan, when we had to submit the last two pages we were told we could not submit material on the social implications. I would argue strongly that such a direction is unfair and not in keeping with the Lisbon Agenda and some of the other agendas, but that was the criteria. There is a caring part to the rural development strategy and, therefore, there is a social part which was mentioned here. One cannot create a rural development strategy unless one takes care of that as well. That is missing in this document and it must be brought into being.
As far as we are concerned, the reason areas like that get left out of tourism is because we fail to put in place the necessary planning infrastructure. I would bet that somebody has managed not to have responsibility for the particular area. We would have proposals and we would be quite happy to assist on this issue to provide that expertise if it was possible. If a place is left out, it is simply that somebody has managed to take it out of his or her area of responsibility.
Although watching the clock, other issues occur to me. Deputy Stanton and others referred to rural transport initiatives. Some years ago we held a publicity-protest demonstration outside Dáil Éireann because there was a strong belief that rural transport initiatives were to be disbanded and the pilot funding discontinued. We brought along people who used the service and as a result of that and other initiatives, thankfully the system is now mainstreamed. These rural transport initiatives have proven to be integral.
The public agenda is that such rural transport initiatives are costly, will not work, are not linked to the CIE system and, therefore, are bad. However, using community guile, contacts and community ways of organising matters, these initiatives have proven to be a winner and will solve the Nitelink, or what somebody called the "drink link", problem. These initiatives are much broader than bringing people to the pubs, and I keep saying so to the media. People have no way of getting to bingo or social settings. As mental health experts have pointed out time and again, lack of social interaction results in loneliness, which was one of the main problems discovered during the course of developing our strategy plan.
Mr. Boland mentioned local authorities. There are two actions the local authorities could take immediately. First, they could enforce the existing guidelines for rural planning. They are not doing so. The Minister issued guidelines which are not being enforced. I would like to know who exactly in local authorities has taken it upon themselves to go against Government policy by not acting on the guidelines set down by the Minister. There is a serious question to be asked in that regard.
Second, there are areas which I described where it is not possible to sustain industries because of the level of footfall or there are not enough people around. With a little help and encouragement, which I have seen given all over Europe, there are worthwhile initiatives implemented by communities in association with local authorities. Poor communities in this country are not able to do that because they are not in it for profit and are not in a position to invest a great deal of money. The key is to support local communities in whatever they are doing. Communities are not being supported.
The private sector is being supported, as the Chairman and I mentioned, and can do no wrong. The private sector is not serving rural Ireland. For example, it is impossible to get a telephone fixed by Eircom or one must wait for a long time. A village in my area was without telecommunications for two weeks purely because Eircom would not come down to fix the problem. The problem with Eircom is that it is just not at the races anymore. This is what we will encounter with further privatisation.
The Government has an obligation to get involved and discriminate positively in favour of rural areas. The local authorities could also do a lot, particularly to support the elderly in their own communities. Community activists are willing and able to do this, yet they are not given the same support as the private sector, which is very regrettable.
In fairness to the delegates, they are very supportive of Deputy Cowley's point and have been working extremely hard to bring about what he proposes. I hope they continue to do so.
I thank the delegates for attending and for engaging in an interesting exchange with members. The rural-based members are very much au fait with the issues involved. Everybody wants solutions and, in fairness to Irish Rural Link, it has a positive role to play in formulating proposals. I hope these proposals gain acceptance at national level.
Mr. Smyth
I thank the Chairman for his kind words and for inviting us.
The joint committee went into private session at 4.41 p.m. and adjourned at 4.45 p.m. sine die.