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JOINT COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL AND FAMILY AFFAIRS debate -
Tuesday, 3 Apr 2007

Post Budget 2007 Analysis: Discussion with Society of St. Vincent de Paul.

I am pleased to welcome Professor John Monaghan, national vice president of the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, Ms Audrey Deane, national and social policy officer of the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and other members of the delegation.

Before inviting our guests to make a presentation I remind members of the parliamentary practice that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the House or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members who wish to make a declaration on any matter being discussed may do so now or at the beginning of their contribution. Members are also reminded that if there is a possibility of a conflict of interest they should make a declaration of interest either now or at the start of their contribution.

I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. While it is generally accepted that witnesses would have qualified privilege, the committee is not in a position to guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. I invite Professor Monaghan to make his opening remarks following which I will open the floor to members for questions.

Professor John Monaghan

I thank the Chairman. As always it is a great pleasure for us to be here. We view our input to this committee as an extremely important part of work and an opportunity to speak to members across the political divide. I am not sure if it has been received but I sent a two-page presentation to the committee which highlights most of the issues we wish to raise.

Without going into all the detail, we are the largest voluntary organisation in the State providing social Christian care. We have more than 9,000 members and make more than 350,000 visits each year and put in over 2 million volunteering hours on these activities. It is fair to say we are one organisation that knows not only the extent of poverty in Ireland but where it is.

Last year we spent in excess of €42 million. That we have to spend of the order of €4 million on food in what is one of the wealthiest countries in the world is staggering. The fact that we spend over €3 million on education in a country that boasts free education is equally startling. We spend more than €7.5 million on general bills. That includes everything, from helping with the cost of bringing a young child into the world to, effectively, burying the grandparents at the other end. We are involved in literally every aspect of care that is required within the State.

Before moving on to speak about the budget and our reaction to it, I should say that recently a particular group was involved in the debate on the national anti-poverty strategy. By and large we welcome that. For the first time targets and deadlines are being set. However, there are elements within it that cause us some concern, one of which is the insistence that poverty is only real if it is consistent. In other words, there are two economic states in this country — one is either extremely poor or prosperous. Clearly, that is nonsensical. It is rather like the Minister for Health and Children suggesting there are only two health states — one is either perfectly healthy or in need of hospice care — and that we should, therefore, close all hospitals. Clearly, on its own, consistent poverty is an inadequate measure of the true extent of the problem.

The amount of money listed in the presentation is going to those at work on low pay, the people who are relatively poor. People will be queueing up to visit the Society of St. Vincent de Paul for help with first Holy Communion expenses. Many of them are at work. In September tens of thousands of people at work on low pay will ask us for assistance with the cost of school books. As we move towards Christmas they will seek assistance to pay for basic items. It is an inadequate response to say consistent poverty is the only real measure of poverty. The poverty confronting those who visit us is very real. Across the table one can watch a woman cry because she wonders from where the money to pay the rent or the ESB bill will come.

The experience of working with the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Brennan, has been a good one. We have found him very receptive and willing to listen and initiate many changes. We use this occasion as an opportunity to compliment him. We welcomed the social welfare and pension increases announced in the budget as they were badly needed. We also welcome the qualified child allowance, formerly child dependant allowance, although we would argue over the size of the increase. Given that it was the first increase since 1994, I commend the Minister on making the move, as I am aware there was considerable disagreement among officials on it being an appropriate response. It was appropriate. Had it been granted in 1994 its value now would be somewhere between €40 and €50 per child rather than €22.

The increase in income limits for family income supplement is welcome. It is a very useful scheme but the problem is that it has taken such an inordinate length of time to roll it out. We also welcome the increase in funeral expenses. Deputies will be aware that it is increasingly difficult for low-income families to meet the cost of funerals. Even the cost of opening a grave is two or three times the amount of the grant provided. We welcome the back to school clothing and footwear allowance but are very concerned about the fact that this is still one of the countries in Europe where families — even the poorest — are expected to pay for school books. Positive changes are taking place within the rent supplement scheme which had been a source of major concern for the Society of St. Vincent de Paul for many years. We are supporting hundreds of thousands who find themselves in that predicament. Consequently, we welcome the changes made on an ongoing basis. Measures to remove those on the minimum wage from the tax net are always welcome.

With what are we not happy? The living alone allowance is extremely important to older people, among whom the level of poverty is high. That a person on a relatively small pension could be living alone is a cause of concern. We meet such persons throughout the country, particularly in rural areas.

Another issue which has not been addressed for many years — we consider this a scandal — is the amount of money paid to refugees. Given the small numbers involved, it is pitiful that we cannot treat them properly. The amount paid by way of direct provision is €19.10 per week, which sum has not been increased since 2002. It is totally inadequate. It is not a lot of money to give someone, from which he or she has to buy clothes, a newspaper or his or her hair cut. It is a trivial way of treating some of the most vulnerable persons in the State.

The increase in fuel allowance is welcome but, sadly, inadequate, considering the huge increase this year in the cost of fuel. While there have been reductions in the price of electricity, they follow very large increases. The cost of electricity has increased by 10% and gas by 20%. We spent almost €3 million last year on energy costs. Therefore, we are helping to keep the lights and fires on in many homes throughout the State. The increase of €4 per week was not adequate.

It is a scandal that children in this State do not have access, in any meaningful way, to free school books. There are schemes within some schools. A small amount of money, approximately €30 per head, is available to principal teachers. Given the cost of school books why is it that one can move 100 km or so up the road to Newry where no child in that area pays for school books? It is unbelievable in one of the wealthiest countries in the world that children do not have access to free school books.

I wish to turn now to the major areas of concern. One of the things we are constantly trying to do is to move people from welfare to work. However, we find that we, and more particularly they, are caught in poverty traps. It amazes us why we still have strange income thresholds. For example, being eligible for family income supplement is different from being eligible for a medical card and different again for the back to school clothing and footwear allowance. Why is it that a lone parent family has a different income threshold to a married couple? Are children not children? It seems very odd. That is one poverty trap we are willing to come back and talk about.

In terms of education, we constantly receive calls from school principals throughout the country. I cannot think of a county from which we do not receive calls, literally on a weekly basis, asking for help with the cost of education assessments. When we meet the Department of Education and Science officials they tell us that as far as they are concerned the scheme is good and that they intend to roll it out as fast as they can. When we put it to the officials, they do not really believe all these psychological assessments are necessary. When we ask them if they are suggesting that school principals are pulling the wool over our eyes, they say they are not saying that nor that they are telling us we should not help to pay for these. We spend a considerable amount of that €3 million each year on a service that should be provided by the State. It is a matter that causes great problems. We are happy to pay for it as long as we need to but there are many other areas where we could use that money.

The slow roll out of the early childhood education is a matter of grave concern. I appreciate there are plans. If we want to stop the problem of illiteracy which is something that is due to be tackled by the national anti-poverty strategy, albeit over an inordinate period of nearly ten years, which is slightly unbelievable, one way of doing so is to ensure young children start school properly. The best way this can be done, particularly for children in disadvantaged backgrounds, is to have them attend early childhood education. I do not mean child care but early childhood education. We will come back to that issue if members are interested.

A very unfair aspect of the tax system is the drift towards individualisation because in our experience it is inherently anti-family. It means that a single-income family with children pays considerably more income tax than a two-income family that may not have children. We are dealing every night of the week with families with children. In our experience the individualisation process has not been very fair. It certainly could be remedied and one way would be to give the PAYE tax allowance to the stay-at-home parent, whether that be the mother or father. If we are trying to move people from welfare to work we need to get rid of that poverty trap.

It was with regret we noted the comments of the Minister for Finance, Deputy Cowen, on 7 February in the Dáil when he said, in response to our suggestion, that we would have something like an SSIA life, in other words a low cost savings scheme to help people save small amounts of money so that they would not turn to moneylenders. They will certainly turn to moneylenders as we approach Holy Communion time and going back to school again. Those on social welfare or low pay have little wriggle room. Consequently, they have great difficulty in making ends meet. They cannot approach the credit union for a loan because they cannot save.

Regarding rural poverty, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul is spread across the entire country and our members comment on cases of fuel poverty. Gas pipelines do not run to various parts of the country. ESB bills can be expensive and people are looking for coal and oil, which is very expensive. A considerable amount of our money is spent on this. There is a drift towards closing post offices and Garda stations and the breakdown in the social fabric of communities is a matter of great concern. It is grossly unfair to an old person who must travel a distance to collect a pension to wait around town all day for the bus to return home in the evening. There must be a way of examining this issue because it is causing considerable hardship. These are the areas of concern to us.

I welcome Professor Monaghan and his colleagues and commend the Society of St Vincent de Paul for the work it does on behalf of the marginalised in society and those who need assistance the most. It is a demand-led service in that people contact the society for help. In my experience those who are at the end of the line contact the society. People have a certain amount of pride and find it difficult to seek help. There was a stigma attached to it in the past but I am unsure if this is still the case. When Members have no other place to refer people, we refer them to the society. That is an indictment of Irish society.

In 2005 the Society of St. Vincent de Paul spent over €42 million on services. What is the trend during the years — is it increasing or decreasing? This is a demand-led service and if the trend is increasing, it means the experience of people is getting more desperate. If not, matters are levelling off. Has the trend been index-linked?

Others have referred to the phenomenon of the working poor. We are told the way out of poverty is through work, yet the delegation has emphasised the case of those who work for low wages and seek the assistance of the Society of St. Vincent de Paul. This is linked to family income supplement which many do not claim. Some suggest this is because one must approach an employer to get him or her to sign a form that suggests he or she is not paying enough money. Is the society aware of this and does it have suggestions to increase uptake of the scheme, which is a good one?

We welcome the increases the Minister has introduced. Last week I commended him on his approach, although the Opposition has been calling for some of them for some time, including the child dependant allowance increase. I have asked for an extension of the closing date for the back to school clothing and footwear allowance scheme from the end of September to Hallowe'en. Would that be useful? The delegation also referred to changes to the rent supplement and rent allowance schemes. The amount spent on rent supplement has increased dramatically in recent years, yet rent is still a major issue for some. The cost of €1,000 per month for a single parent with two children is enormous. The Society of St. Vincent de Paul has general bills of €7.5 million. Do rent payments form part of that figure?

The quality of housing is also an issue. Local authorities have an obligation to provide high quality housing under the rent allowance scheme. Part of the reason for the slow roll-out of this scheme is that quality housing is not available. People are living in terrible conditions, leading to health problems. Would the witnesses like to comment on a cap on rent?

There was no increase in the living alone allowance. The Minister increased pensions because he did not want the living alone allowance to be a trap. There is some merit in his view. For example, if someone is living alone and then moves in with someone else and loses a high living alone allowance it might be an impediment to moving to a safer environment.

I agree with the delegation's views on asylum seekers and direct provision. I have called for an increase in this for some time. The fuel allowance is another matter. The presentation did not refer to those with disabilities. Organisations representing those with disabilities have been calling for a cost of disability payment. Are people with disabilities experiencing increased hardship? The number of people on disability allowance has increased in recent times. The total figure is 82,000, which is quite high. Queries are being raised in the UK on this matter.

I agree that the psychological assessment scheme is a scandal. Constituents are waiting for one or two years for assessments. This is appalling because it is at this point that children need intervention. The longer it goes on the more difficulties that appear later.

Regarding the administration of the education grant schemes, we find they are delayed until March or April. Sometimes, due to administration difficulties, the student has finished the college year before receiving the grant. Has the Society of St. Vincent de Paul come across such cases? I find these difficult to handle. The Minister has proposed legislation to streamline the process.

I support the call for a scheme similar to SSIAs. Can the delegation expand on its experience of moneylenders? "Prime Time Investigates" carried out an exposé on this matter recently. It is frightening. The Society of St. Vincent de Paul is working on the ground and meets this problem every day. The Combat Poverty Agency is undertaking research into rural poverty. We have been calling for that for some time.

The Minister spoke of introducing a new parental allowance and support for single parents. He also spoke of abolishing the co-habitation rule. Can the delegation comment on this? The Minister also referred to a second-tier payment, amalgamating the family income supplement and the child dependant allowance and possibly the back to school clothing and footwear allowance. Progress on this is slow — the second major promise made by the Minister that has not been implemented.

Many proposals have been made regarding pensions, a matter to which the delegation's documentation refers. Pensions are seen as a time bomb. Does the delegation believe people have adequate pension provision at present? What would it like to see happen in this respect?

I welcome the delegation and will not repeat the matters raised by Deputy Stanton. I compliment the members of the Society of St. Vincent de Paul for their voluntary work. It is a sad reflection on society and the Government that the Society of St. Vincent de Paul has so much work to do. Without this help I do not know how many families would survive. The organisation spends €42 million every year and would spend more if it could.

A total of €4.6 million is spent on food. I am interested in this area because so many young children go to school hungry and go to bed hungry. We also hear about children who are not from poor families who suffer from poor nutrition, although they are not hungry, but that is a problem for another arena. Are there any studies into how the school system looks after children? Comparing the Irish system with the British, we fall short in how we address the poverty that exists. Our breakfast clubs do not work well in some schools. In some British schools, proper breakfasts and lunches are provided for children and fruit is distributed in the afternoon. That is wonderful. Why cannot we provide that here? Were any submissions made to the Department of Education and Science on that? I have worked in schools and I know children come in hungry. The money spent in this area is small in terms of the number of people who require additional help to feed their families.

This raises the issue of how people manage their money. There are good housekeepers and not so good housekeepers, some can manage with the budget available while others have poor management skills. Is training available for those people? Does the Society of St. Vincent de Paul get any grants from the Government to carry out its work or is the funding collected by volunteers and through donations?

Older people living alone are vulnerable. They save their fuel. We are currently canvassing, and luckily the weather is improving, but during the winter older people would answer the door wearing coats and scarves. They may have fuel but they save and spare it because the next day may be worse. That is appalling in this day and age.

I do not what many people would do with out the Society of St. Vincent de Paul but sadly that is a poor reflection of our financial priorities in this State. How can we ensure, then, that young children do not go hungry?

I also welcome Professor Monaghan and the members of the Society of St. Vincent de Paul. Of all the organisations and voluntary groups I know, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul is closest to my heart because I have personal experience of my family availing of its services. All of us on this committee have one goal — to deal with the problems facing the community. We hear that a rising tide lifts all boats but, unfortunately, that is not the case. Economists have told us that the better off we are, the worse off are those who are left behind. We must all play our part in whatever way we can. We rarely differ on issues, we will go to the Minister on cases where there are anomalies in the system and we are pleased that many such anomalies that have been raised by groups appearing before the committee have been removed and that we have made life a little easier.

We have repeatedly tried to address the reasons some people do not avail of the family income supplement. This year, when the Minister appeared before the committee, we raised the issue again. Low income working families can get assistance, as the delegation mentioned. Is there some way the Society of St. Vincent de Paul might get the message across? We have pressed the Department to promote this but the message is not getting across. That will not solve all the problems but generous financial support is available to people.

The Society of St. Vincent de Paul is very important to many in the community, as I have seen at first hand, and I welcome the opportunity to pay tribute to the society. The more critical the Society of St. Vincent de Paul is at times, the easier it makes our job and that of the Minister. It is only when we hear what is happening that we can make the necessary improvements.

Professor Monaghan

Our colleagues from the Vincentian Partnership for Social Justice will address the matter of household budgeting, as raised by Senator Terry. Sr. Bernadette MacMahon and her colleagues are doing incredible work in this area.

We do not collect all the money we receive, the Government pays us as it would any group. We build houses, for example. We are one of the largest providers of social housing in the country, with more than 900 social housing units at present, a figure that will rise to more than 1,000 by next year. If we build those houses, the State pays a grant, as it does for any housing association. It is effectively a transfer that comes in and goes out straight away.

We get other money for our hostels. We are the largest supplier of hostel accommodation in the State, with 18 hostels. Any night of the week, more than 1,000 people use our hostel service and would otherwise sleep rough. We get a subvention from the State for the cost and upkeep of those facilities.

We get around €10 million for such activities each year — hostels, houses, resource centres and schemes for older people. The only other money we get from the State is €1.3 million. It was £1 million, which then became €1.27 million and then we got the marvellous increase of €30,000 to bring it up to €1.3 million. The rest of the money is raised through donations, running events, knocking on doors, church gate collections and many in the business community are extremely generous to us. We are grateful for that. The bulk of our money comes from collections and voluntary donations.

It is incredible that we spend €4.6 million on food. If this were the week after next, with children back at school, they would have gone to school hungry that morning, come home and have had very little to eat. That is simply because many people in Ireland do not have enough on which to live. There certainly are poor managers, but there are people who are absolutely heroic. I have possibly told this committee before that the great heroines in this country are the mothers. They are the ones who keep things together, often in the face of impossible difficulties, yet they manage. The fact that we do not have more problems is more surprising perhaps than that we have some. It is a sad fact that people simply do not have enough on which to live. Every night of the week when our conference meets members hand out vouchers in order that people may exchange them for food. We give cash, too, in order that they can buy food. If we did not, they would go hungry, simply because they do not have enough on which to live. Something is not being paid if they are spending money on food. That is a considerable problem.

FIS was mentioned by a number of committee members. We believe it is a good scheme. We recommended to the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Brennan, that the one way to ensure it would have an increased take-up would be to advertise it. Members might recall that there was a very good campaign in this regard around May last year. We suggest this should be replicated frequently. Every month or so advertisements appear on television in Northern Ireland, asking people whether they are receiving all their benefits and if they are aware of what they are entitled to. The campaign here was excellent and the Minister is to be complimented on it. However, it needs to be repeated every month, literally, to remind people.

Deputy Stanton made a comment about people having to fill in an application form, which means going to the employer. That is a significant turn-off. It means a person in low paid employment has to go to his or her boss to get him or her to sign a piece of paper which effectively admits not enough is being paid when the worker has to seek more money from the Department of Social and Family Affairs. Many employees are unhappy about this. They believe it is demeaning to have to tell their employer who may not want to do it. It is possible, through the taxation system, to know what people are being paid. We know how many children there are because families are in receipt of child benefit, apart from persons in the habitual residency category who are not entitled to receive it. It is not rocket science to pull these things together to confirm a family is in the tax net. Every child has a PPS number. We know the number of children per family and the level of income, because of the amount paid in tax. We should be moving towards automatic payment of benefits. There would have to be checks, clearly, but the back to school clothing and footwear allowances, medical card, etc. could all be granted automatically. We have been calling for this for a considerable time and I do not see how there would be a great problem involved.

Ms Audrey Deane

I am delighted to see that the Department of Social and Family Affairs is spearheading the working group under Towards 2016 in a most innovative and flexible manner. As a social partner, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul is very active in this regard and thoroughly welcomes the changes in rent supplement being enacted in legislation. This group has commissioned research on FIS and has been able to get agreement on a figure of between €8,000 and €9,000 from the Revenue Commissioners on the wage income it wants to target. Therefore, as Professor Monaghan says, it is not impossible to do. If the developmental welfare state concept is to be taken seriously — it encompasses an innovative, flexible and responsive public service — that is an example of how it should happen.

We welcome developments, but do not accept that it is not possible to target FIS applicants and get money to them. Neither do we see why there is not automatic entitlement to the other anomaly-ridden schemes that are supposedly aimed at helping people to find work and not make it difficult for them. There is no reason there should not be automatic entitlement. Why are medical card limits so difficult to work out? The uptake on GP visit only cards is extremely low because people are cynical about them and the criteria in force for various schemes.

Deputy Stanton talked about reform of lone parent payments. We contributed actively to that reform which we welcome because it is child-centred, but we also have reservations as regards the statutory agency, FÁS, whose role is to facilitate people in finding work. If it cannot match the needs of lone parents, 97% of whom are women, who have to get their children to school and then get themselves to quality, as distinct from low-end, job training, then those reforms will be very dangerous. We need to watch that space carefully and we have made this clear to the Minister.

The Deputy has also spoken about school meals, which has great potential to impact on the lives of children who really need help in a way that will increase their ability to be healthy into the future. In the way it is formulated at present——

Professor Monaghan

In every budget submission we have made in recent years we have continued to ask for extra provision towards school meals, since children are going to school hungry, and this is one way of tackling this.

Returning to the rent supplement area, the issue of the rented accommodation scheme, RAS, is extremely important. The performance of the State in terms of building social housing has been absolutely abysmal. We can boast about building 80,000 or 90,000 units every year but the amount being built as social housing is dreadful. It is a scandal that we should be one of the bigger providers of social housing. As the committee knows we are spending about €375 million a year and clearly that would be far better invested in proper housing for people. The rented accommodation scheme is extremely good. Significantly, however, last year when the officials took a look at rented accommodation, it was so bad that they refused to take it under their wing as part of RAS. Yet community welfare officers are obliged to pay rent supplement so that people live in these appalling conditions. We see it all the time in terms of damp walls, dreadful conditions and windows falling out. This is something that needs attending to in a very dramatic manner.

Our colleagues in the Vincentian Partnership for Social Justice will talk more about household budgets and how people can manage. I want to talk about the medical card because it is of incredible importance to us. A significant proportion of the £7.5 million we referred to is going, indirectly, towards helping people with medical costs. Invariably, people will pay their doctor or the pharmacist for drugs, hospital costs or whatever. However, having done that they will miss paying the rent, the ESB or the gas bill.

The Deputy commented on the way we do our work. It is demand driven. We do not, like the Lone Ranger, knock on people's doors and tell them they need our help. We wait to be contacted. Sometimes we instigate contact when we know there is a problem, but we have to be invited in and we go in pairs. We listen, sit and talk to people and try to work through their problems to remove them from dependency on us and the State.

The medical card, as far as we are concerned, however, is crucial. In our experience the GP visit only card is a complete waste of time. If a parent has a full medical card, then his or her child, if living in a rural area, is entitled to school transport costs and can also get free books. This time of the year our conferences are inundated with requests for leaving certificate and junior certificate fees. However, if a family has a medical card, these fees do not have to be paid. Therefore, there are many pivotal aspects to the medical card, apart from the doctor part.

In that regard, we were critical of the 1% reduction in the top rate of income tax, since €186 million would have gone a long way towards providing approximately 186,000 free medical cards. That would have met the promise of the Government in 2002, when it said that it would provide 200,000 medical cards. If it did not want to do that, it would, in fact, have allowed the Minister, Deputy Brennan, to double the rate of payment for what is now the qualified child allowance as well as many other things such as the school meals, to which Ms Deane referred. The 1% tax rate reduction, which probably means €200 or €300 to people such as the members of the committee or I, would have meant so much more to so many families. It was the wrong way to proceed.

Acting Chairman

I thank Professor Monaghan for his presentation and answering questions from members.

Sitting suspended at 4 p.m. and resumed at 4.01 p.m.
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