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JOINT COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL AND FAMILY AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 24 Jun 2009

Personal Debt: Discussion.

I welcome Mr. Pat Farrell, chief executive officer of the Irish Banking Federation, Mr. Felix O'Regan, head of public relations and communications of the Irish Banking Federation and Mr. Liam Croke, an independent financial adviser.

I draw attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the House, or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Pat Farrell

The Irish Banking Federation is the representative body for the banking sector, representing all banking institutions, some 70, in the State. Today's presentation will focus on the Irish Mortgage Council which looks after the interests of the mortgage providers, of which there are 13 in total. Most are well-known household names and provide a range of other financial products. In line with the increasing level of competition in this market, some are Irish-owned but others have UK, Danish, Belgian and Dutch parent banks. The credit unions, of which there are more than 500, are also an important provider of credit.

According to the Central Bank, the total amount of credit outstanding for private households at the end of March 2009 comes to €171,798 million. Mortgage finance makes up 87% of this while 3% comprises investments and 10% personal loans such as credit cards. It is important to bear in mind that 87% of outstanding credit is secured on property.

Over the past several years there has been much comment on the level of debt per household. Contributors who have been here before have emphasised that because we have had an extended period of economic growth, we have moved up into the list of other advanced countries with similar levels of development. While we are fairly high on the list, we are not by any means the highest. Ireland ranks fourth behind Norway, Netherlands and Denmark, based on an OECD report.

Another difference between the composition of credit in Ireland vis-à-vis most of those countries is that in most jurisdictions the levels of debt will be fairly well dispersed across different types of borrowing, whereas in Ireland it is heavily concentrated on mortgage finance. One of the reasons for this is because mortgage finance over the last decade or more has been extraordinarily cheap given the benefits of Ireland’s membership of the eurozone and the ECB rates, which were consistently very low over that period. Principally, when people sought finance they would, invariably, access it through mortgage finance because that was the cheapest and most efficient form of credit available.

The other side of the balance sheet is savings. The next chart comprises a similar composition of countries. While Ireland is up there in terms of the levels of personal debt, equally we are high on the league as regards personal savings, or savings ratios and this is measured by the European Commission. Savings have been increasing very strongly and that trend is expected to continue, according to the forecasts. This is important because in terms of the balance sheet of Ireland Inc. and indeed individuals, while there may be significant borrowings in some cases, there is also quite a significant pool of savings.

Clearly, not everybody in the country is borrowed. Some 47% of the population, almost half, has no borrowings at all — and that dispels any notion to the effect that everybody in the country is indebted. It means, of course, that the level of debt is concentrated among a smaller group of people. Of the 53% who are borrowed, based on independent research carried out by Amárach Research this year, 21% of those found it relatively easy to manage their debt, 24% said they had to be careful as regards balancing outgoings and income, 6% said it was a cause for concern and 2% found it to be a very real problem as regards the managing of debt. The general conclusion from that is a significant majority of people are able to manage their debt, but that is not to deny there is an important segment who have difficulties managing. Those are the people we are focusing on today.

In terms of mortgages, 66% of homes have no mortgage. Of those that have, 3% have a mortgage which is 20 years or more outstanding. I shall not go through the rest but one may see how much time is left as regards those mortgages. Some 110,000 mortgages in total have been drawn down in the last year, of which 20,000 were for first-time buyers who account for more than 20% of the market. The mortgage market obviously has slowed down very considerably and the level of applications is much lower. At the same time, because of low interest rates and other factors, affordability has improved dramatically. However, many first-time buyers are reluctant to enter the market because of the perception that house prices have further to fall. We have been looking at figures to do with applications and approvals and while those levels have started to pick up, people with approvals are tending to defer using them because they are standing back from the market. This is somewhat off the point, but it might be of interest to the committee.

As I said, affordability has improved considerably for people. At the end of September, by our calculations, the repayments on an average loan had fallen by almost €500 per month, from €1,200 to €800, a drop of 38% on average.

The core of the issue is what is being done at the moment to assist borrowers. A number of things are happening, as the committee has probably heard from other presenters, but I shall go through them in some detail. There is the code of conduct on mortgage arrears, which the committee will probably be familiar with. This was an IBF code which was subsequently upgraded and placed on a statutory footing by the regulator. There is a joint protocol with the Money, Advice and Budgeting Service, MABS, which covers the whole area of debt management. There is the consumer protection code, which offers safeguards to consumers taking out loans and requires lenders to observe certain standards. There is also the whole are of overhauling the debt enforcement system, because we still labour under a very archaic and anachronistic debt enforcement system which has, as its ultimate sanction, the jailing of a debtor. We believe this is totally out of date and should be reformed, and the Law Reform Commission has said likewise. There is also the mortgage interest supplement which is provided by the Department of Social and Family Affairs.

I want to talk about some individual cases of practical support, to illustrate what banks are doing in real terms for customers where they encounter difficulties with personal debt. There are many safeguards for borrowers as regards the code of conduct on mortgage arrears. For a start the lenders have to adopt flexible procedures in dealing with arrears situations. They must wait at least six months before starting legal action and in the case of recapitalised banks, it is 12 months. The code covers all mortgage lenders including the sub-prime lenders, and it is a statutory initiative that builds on a code the IBF developed, which had been in place since 2000. Levels of repossession are, by international standards and from benchmarking against the UK, still relatively low. There were 96 repossessions in total last year, which is 0.01% of all mortgages. There are 35 repossessions in the UK for every one in Ireland, taking population balance into account along with other factors and 1.44% of mortgages here are in arrears for three months or over. Again, these are probably figures that have been shared before with the committee.

As regards the code of conduct on mortgage arrears, there is a whole range of solutions on offer. For a start, the lender is obliged to wait six months and 12 months in the case of recapitalised banks, before any action can commence. There is a range of options available on a case-by-case basis. People can defer their payments for a period, they can extend the term of the mortgage, change the type of mortgage or capitalise the arrears and the interest. Repossession is very much a last resort, I emphasise, and the code highlights the critical importance of the lender and the borrower communicating. One message I should like to get home today is that it is crucial that once a borrower is in difficulty, he or she should immediately contact the lender. The earlier this is done the easier it will be to resolve the issue. The longer the borrower stands back from the problem and does not engage with the lender, the more difficult it will be to sort out at a later stage.

As regards the MABS protocol on debt management, this is something that has been agreed in the last month. Again, the committee will be familiar with the work of MABS. It gives priority to putting solutions in place for customers and personal borrowers as against legal proceedings. The whole priority is to apply a range of solutions short of commencing legal proceedings. The most important phrasing in the document is to the effect that the emphasis is on "developing a mutually-acceptable, affordable and sustainable repayment plan" for the borrower. We put that agreement in place, having worked on it over the last year or so. It has been discussed with all the parties involved and draws on a long-standing working relationship we have with MABS, which goes back over two decades. All the IBF lending institutions have adopted this code and it is open to other lenders to adopt it. The sub-prime market has voluntarily adopted it as well.

We shall formally put it into operation in September. In the meantime, we shall embark on a campaign of promoting it and disseminating the code's details to all the relevant parties. This will be done in conjunction with MABS in the coming months and we shall prepare information materials and so forth on it for our members.

As regards a consumer protection code, the lender has to act to protect the consumer's interests and ensure the credit is suitable for the purpose the borrower requires it. The lender must ensure the borrower has the ability to make the repayment and there is no pre-approved or unsolicited credit, which has been banned under the code for some time. We have worked with the Financial Regulator in the development of this. The code came into effect in July 2007 and all our member banks are fully adhering to it. That code will be reviewed at the end of the year, and the Financial Regulator undertakes regular inspections to ensure the code is being complied with.

We fully support the overhaul of the debt enforcement system. We want to put the focus on seeking workable alternatives to imprisonment or similar sanctions because we do not think it has any place in the debt enforcement regime. We have made submissions over the years to the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and have made our position very clear. We are working with groups like the Money Advice and Budgeting Service, MABS, the Legal Advice Centres and with the Law Reform Commission to make the views of our members clear on this matter and to lend our support in whatever way we can to having the legislation changed.

We also have a role with mortgage interest supplement. This is a service provided to community welfare officers from the Department of Social and Family Affairs. We provide the documentation in support of the claims for people to process this as quickly as possible. We are currently talking to the Department about proposals to speed up the efficiency of the processing of these applications. We are looking at the information we provide and standardising the form used to process the application. We are also looking at whether the mortgage interest supplement can be paid directly to the lender. We are liaising with the Department of Social and Family Affairs on this to try to develop that process and make it more efficient for those who wish to avail of the scheme.

I have a few examples that demonstrate the practical support that is being offered by the institutions to their customers. One of them is the case of a young first-time buyer who took out a mortgage in 2007. He had a repayment schedule of almost €1,000 per month. He became unemployed earlier this year and found that he was not able to maintain the level of repayments. The bank has come to an arrangement for the next six months to accept a substantially lower level of payment, and that will be reviewed after six months when personal circumstances might change. An example of a personal borrower is the case of an older single person who had developed a medical condition in 2008 which precluded him from gainful employment. He had very little assets or savings so the bank now accepts a much reduced payment from that person. That will again be reviewed after a period of time. The third example is of a couple with a mortgage who became unemployed. Their level of payment was unsustainable given their changed economic circumstances. Payments on that account have been put on hold by the bank for six months. These are just examples of the commitments that are in the code on mortgage arrears and the commitment that is in our agreement with MABS. There are practical examples of where this is being applied.

In summary, a large proportion of people have no borrowings but that is just a statement of fact. For those who have borrowings, a significant segment of them have real difficulties. The majority with borrowings are managing well but for those who are not, we are working with customers and with our members to put in place a range of measures to help people in those situations as best we can. Where consumers require support with debt, we are working with them to try to help them. The banks are committed to a supportive role because, at the end of the day, it is in the banks' interest to help the customer through a particularly difficult period. I emphasise again that early communication with the lender is critical.

I welcome the delegation and thank them for informing our general discussion on the issue of indebtedness. The very fact that a large proportion of people have no borrowings makes the fact that we are fourth in the OECD survey on borrowings even more of a stark figure.

Mr. Farrell spoke about a savings ratio. Does he have an analysis on the percentage of people with savings? Has an analysis been done on people with borrowings as well? Is it the case that people who do not have borrowings are likely to be those with savings? Slide number six shows the incidence of personal borrowings. I think the percentages given are percentages of the53%. There is a much smaller proportion who are finding things easily manageable. After that, we are immediately getting into more difficult territory. People can be careful in this climate but other forces affect their income and can push them easily into the category of "cause for concern". That is our greatest concern.

I am glad Mr. Farrell has said publicly that the IBF would like an alternative disputes resolution system. What is in place at the moment does not satisfy the IBF's needs any more than it satisfies the needs of its customers. If someone is put in jail, that person still owes money when he or she comes out of jail and it has cost the taxpayer to keep the person in jail, so none of us is any better off as a result. We have had two debates on Private Members' business in this parliamentary session alone, yet we have not managed to see effective progress. There are good papers on this and it is not about reinventing the wheel.

The Minister recently launched the agreement between the Irish Banking Federation and MABS. Is it the case that people's credit rating is still damaged if they come in under this agreement? If that is the case, it automatically lessens the value of the agreement. One would hope young couples starting out who get into difficulty would get back on their feet in a year or two and would need to borrow again at some stage in the future. I would not like to see a system develop where just because they have lost their jobs and are out of work for six months or a year, they will not be in a position to borrow later.

Mr. Farrell said the IBF would do something with MABS about contacting customers. I am quite shocked at the number of people in my constituency who come to me who have lost their jobs, applied for mortgage interest supplement and are receiving benefits but have not told their bank of their changed circumstances. Some sort of simplified communication needs to go out to all customers explaining to them that they need to tell their bank of their difficulties immediately. By the time they are getting to the bank, they are quite a few months in arrears, the trouble has built up and it becomes more difficult to solve it. When Mr. Farrell speaks about campaigning to the relevant parties, I assume he means customers but it does need to be simple. It needs to be done in a way that will not frighten them but makes them realise they must let the bank know if there is trouble.

Mr. Farrell spoke about 96 repossessions in 2008. The High Court had 238 orders for possession in 2008 for both residential and non-residential properties, while the Circuit Court had 178 orders for residential repossessions alone. Does that mean that the members of the IBF only acted on 96 of those orders? I know there are other institutions that are not members of the IBF but I would like some specific figures on this. According to the Courts Service, most mortgage contracts permit the lender to foreclose for non-payment without a court order at all. Are those repossession figures included in the 96 figure or does the figure just relate to those cases that took the court route? Prior to the protocol, how early would that route have been taken? Do our guests know the proportion of contracts that allow the court route? What number never needs to go to court?

As the witnesses stated, the level of application approvals for first-time buyers and new mortgages has picked up. Since when has the level increased and do our guests have figures for now compared with this time last year or two years ago? The public are telling us a different story, as are people in the property business. I will leave my questions there for now, but I might come back in later.

I welcome the delegates to the committee and thank them for their presentation. The figures quoted in respect of homes repossession are for 2008 and would not seem to indicate anything particularly startling. The committee's concern is to keep abreast of trends and to keep as up-to-date as possible in respect of debt issues. For this reason, I would like the delegates to provide us with information on the first five months of this year, if possible. As the real difficulties, including job losses, did not kick in until late last year or early this year, I suspect that the figures have changed drastically since 2008.

Since the beginning of this year, how many home repossession orders have been initiated and how many homes have been repossessed? I would also like whatever information the delegates have to hand in respect of other repossessions, such as the repossession of cars, which would provide a clear indication of what is occurring in terms of debt issues. I am unaware of any published information on car repossession. Do the delegates have it with them?

Will the delegates update the committee on recent experiences with credit card debt? Their presentation does not contain great information on this. The indication is that credit card debt is either declining or levelling off, but I presume that low-income families that use credit cards for day-to-day expenses still have serious problems.

The Financial Regulator's code of conduct on mortgage arrears sets down that lenders must wait six months before taking legal action. Many of us would have liked the period to have been extended to up to two years, given the crisis. How is the system working in practice? Has it made any difference? What help is it to people? The problem is not a short-term one and people cannot get back on their feet within a six-month period, particularly given the developments in unemployment. Is it not the case that debt is accumulating regardless? Is a six-month stay any help?

Regarding people on fixed rate mortgages, interest rates have decreased by more than 42% over the past 12 months, which has been of considerable assistance to people with variable rate mortgages. Every Member is inundated with representations from people who have fixed rate mortgages and are being screwed by the financial institutions. Many people have contacted us to give examples of how they have approached their lenders to change to variable rates. Last week, I was contacted by someone with an IIB home loan who has two years to run on a fixed rate, but who sought to change to a variable rate and was quoted a charge of €13,900. There are several examples of charges of €12,000, €13,000 and €14,000 being quoted. What are the delegates' guidelines on this matter and how is that calculation decided? It seems to be out of kilter with any kind of actuarial assessment of what changing costs the lender. Unfortunately, this is a key issue for people on fixed rate mortgages in a climate of sharply declining interest rates. What is the basis of and justification for those calculations and has the federation issued guidelines to its members on it?

What is the federation's policy on the referral of debts to debt collection agencies? What kind of vetting does it conduct on the agencies? Are there guidelines on the approach and practices of such agencies? We have all heard stories of heavy-handed approaches and, in some situations, unsavoury people running the agencies and approaching people in an unacceptable manner. What is the federation's policy on that?

I welcome our guests and their contribution. Obviously, the situation in some areas seems better than how we would find it on the ground. This is the issue with which I would like to get to grips.

I will follow up on Deputy Shortall's important point on fixed rate mortgages. A lower rate would make a significant difference to some people, but the charges of €6,000, €8,000, €10,000 and €12,000 being requested to be released from fixed rate mortgages are unacceptable. This is being done at a time when taxpayers are investing €7 billion in the two major banks and €4 billion in the other banks. There seems to be no pay-off for the smaller people from salvaging the banks.

I refer to credit rating, which is a major problem. If people fall behind repayments through no fault of their own, such as by losing their jobs, it is important that their credit ratings not be lost automatically if they agree to change their borrowings. I am glad to see that Start Mortgages have reconsidered. The sorts of measure being taken, such as bringing cases to the High Court immediately with a surcharge or €10,000 or €12,000, were unacceptable. Will the witnesses clarify whether this approach has stopped? It is the single greatest problem for many people. I know of one case in which the debt was only €30,000 or €40,000, yet legal charges of €12,000 were added on. In a recent case involving borrowings of €10,000 from Ulster Bank, a significant settlement offer was put on the table but the bank quickly moved to its legal people and added a surcharge of €1,500. These events are occurring in the real world and must be changed.

The witnesses stated that 1.4% of mortgages are in arrears. Can the witnesses provide the committee with the number of people in arrears rather than the percentage?

The graph on one of the pages suggests that 47% have no borrowings and 21% are easily manageable. This seems to suggest that things are not too bad and that only 2% have real problems. In reality, the numbers are significant. Can the witnesses provide more information? I thank them for the information.

Institutions must wait six months before starting legal action, or 12 months in the case of recapitalised banks. Has that made a difference in practice? Legal actions did not take place for a long time and there used to be much back and forth between customers and banks before that point. I would like to see the figures for the percentage of mortgages with proceedings issued and those with legal letters issued. This has gone beyond debt collection and to the legal level. It is solicitors' letters, the summons or the civil bill that is of great concern to people. If a house has been repossessed, one is at the end of a very long road. The receipt of a solicitor's letter or the serving of proceedings is the start of a very worrying time. These figures must be provided to give members a fuller picture.

At the last meeting I attended, I called for proceedings for ordinary residential mortgages not to be taken in the High Court. The Minister has indicated he will change that. I have discussed it with him a few times. Do members of the Irish Banking Federation take proceedings in the High Court when they should be taken in the Circuit Court? One company, Start Mortgages, is notorious for applying to the High Court where, in my view, the Circuit Court would suffice. The figures on cases where legal letters have issued are important, although this is not public information whereas the proceedings are.

The incidence of mortgages on homes is from Amárach research but the Central Statistics Office statistics correlate. In constituencies such as Meath East and Dublin North the figures are reversed. Some 65% have mortgages and the rest do not. It is concentrated among a section of people in a certain part of the country. That must be examined.

I will be brief. I agree with those who have spoken on moneylenders and tracker mortgages. I add my voice to those. I have had many queries on the subjects and others have spoken on them.

Regarding mortgage arrears, savings and borrowings, what is the age group of those in mortgages arrears? Are these first-time buyers or people in the middle of their lives? Do older people have a higher level of savings? Is there any survey relating age to the level of borrowing?

The table showing the incidence of personal borrowings is presented to suggest that 47% have no borrowings and 53% have borrowings. This is broken down into those that are easily manageable, manageable if careful and those giving cause for concern. Do those listed under headings of manageable if careful and those giving cause for concern and real problems make up 60% of all borrowings? If I am correct in this interpretation it is very high. This means that 60% of all borrowers are in these three categories. The manageable if careful cohort makes up some 45% of the 53%. What policies have the banks developed, in terms of approaches to customers to ensure people are not frightened their houses will be repossessed? Instead of being petrified going into the bank manager, people could go to the bank knowing that the banks will work to ensure people can retain their homes.

The figures break it down between those with borrowings and those with none. The figure for those with borrowings is broken down into further categories. This is the category we are worried about and the borrowings of 60% of people in this category are classified as manageable if careful or worse. Can Mr. Farrell elaborate on this?

Mr. Pat Farrell

Deputy Enright referred to the ratio of savings to borrowers. There are no data on the correlation between those who have borrowings and savings. I am not sure whether we can get more detail but we will try.

I thank Deputy Enright for her comments on debt enforcement. Meetings such as today's are a welcome opportunity to reinforce the fact that it is an archaic system and must change. It is rare that all stakeholders are ad idem on the need for change but this is one.

I ask one of my colleagues to deal with the question on credit rating asked by a number of speakers. The difference in the figures for orders and repossessions is explained by the fact that only a fraction of orders for repossessions will result in repossession. This is a sequence of events when a lender seeks to enforce a debt order. It starts off with using services such as the mortgage arrears code and coming to some arrangement with a customer. It may progress to the money advice and budgeting service, MABS, and the mediation and conciliation provided for under the debt management protocol. Ultimately, if no solution is forthcoming, the borrower must choose the sanction of an order for repossession. This is the penultimate stage. As one goes through the stages of sanctions, customers are more likely to come to a solution. Sometimes people are in denial. At other times people cannot deal with the issue. That is why there is a difference between figures for orders for repossessions and actual repossessions.

If customers could not come to a solution at that stage, what is the solution? They are losing their houses in a different way. They are paying back the lenders. Court costs must be paid on top of that. They are left without a house and if they are very lucky they will have a small amount of money if they sold it rather than had it repossessed. Is what I outlined the solution? Customers do not find they have a windfall.

Mr. Pat Farrell

There are two types of customers — those who cannot pay and those who will not pay.

Mr. Pat Farrell

A person may not play ball, regardless of ability. Until it gets to the repossession order being granted, we often find we cannot get the person to deal with the issue. The cases which reach the point of repossession order are the tougher ones and ultimately in many of them it is decided to come to an arrangement. I know of many examples of when the customer does this but does not do it until it reaches this second last stop.

What about the people who cannot pay? The committee is more concerned about people who cannot pay rather than those who will not pay. There are very different sympathy levels for those who will not pay.

Mr. Pat Farrell

I gave a few examples of lenders applying a range of solutions where people cannot pay and all of them involve taking a fraction of what the repayment would be normally to tide them over or suspending payments for a period.

Deputy Charlie O'Connor took the Chair.

I am speaking about the situation after a lender gets a repossession order and the people cannot pay. What happens then?

Mr. Pat Farrell

In such a case repossession will proceed and the figure of 90 which was mentioned was the number of these cases last year.

Is Mr. Farrell saying that the majority of cases where there is no repossession involve people who will not pay rather than people who cannot pay?

Mr. Pat Farrell

I do not know the detail. Generally there are two types of customers involved and they are those who cannot pay and those who will not pay. The full range of the process must be gone through to reach a conclusion on whether the person involved is playing for time, so to speak, or thinks that if they do not deal with it, it will go away. Ultimately, the sanction of repossession exists and it does happen, but only in a very small number of cases.

Is it possible for Mr. Farrell to provide the committee with figures on what happens in these cases as there is a difference between those of the High Court, the Circuit Court and the Irish Banking Federation?

Mr. Pat Farrell

Yes. Deputy Enright's question was on the Circuit Court. A variety of routes are taken to obtain a repossession order and it can be done through the Circuit Court or the High Court. In the majority of cases it is done through the Circuit Court. There are instances where it may suit both borrower and lender to take the High Court route instead because the Circuit Court may require three or four separate sittings, and each of these has a cost factor while the High Court can be a one-off event. However, the High Court may not suit people because there is a limited number of High Court sittings throughout the country and it puts people to the expense of travelling a distance to attend. The lenders will not automatically think about going to the High Court and the Circuit Court is used in the majority of cases. With regard to policy, it is no secret that whether lenders can have automatic access to High Court and whether a case can be started in the High Court in the first instance is being reviewed.

We must leave for a vote. Is Mr. Farrell happy to return?

Mr. Pat Farrell

I am happy to return and to continue going through the questions.

Sitting suspended at 12.15 p.m. and resumed at 12.40 p.m.

I apologise to the witnesses for the interruption but such are the vagaries of democracy. I invite Mr. Farrell to respond to remaining questions.

Mr. Pat Farrell

Deputy Shortall asked about credit card debt. While I do not have detailed figures, John Kelly of the Central Bank previously advised the committee that credit card debt at the end of 2008 was 5% and had declined to 4.3% by February 2009. He also indicated that March figures showed a further decline. People are probably paying down credit card debts rather than increasing them in real terms. That is smart from the customer's point of view, because, as the members well know, credit card debt is the most expensive form of debt.

Why does Mr. Farrell not have figures on credit card debt?

Mr. Pat Farrell

The Central Bank compiles those figures. I can get them and forward them to Deputy Shortall.

Surely Mr. Farrell picks up those kinds of data from his members. Does he?

Mr. Pat Farrell

No, the Central Bank collects those data directly. I can get the information and forward it to the Deputy.

Mr. Pat Farrell

I believe the extension has made a difference in practice. I will return to one of the figures I mentioned earlier, which was benchmarking ourselves against the UK. The levels of repossessions are completely different between this country and the UK. This is because we have the kinds of measures in place in Ireland in addition to what would apply in other jurisdictions which have meant we have managed to keep our repossession levels quite low by the standards of other jurisdictions, especially the UK, our nearest neighbour. The moratorium gives people a bit of breathing space to try to work out an accommodation with their lenders across the range of options available.

In practice, going back over the years, lenders will not start moving their process against a mortgage borrower the minute the first sign of arrears appears. The first step is to try to have a conversation with the borrower on the issue. The moratorium that has been introduced to a degree has formalised a practice that was in place. It might not have been scientific in terms of every lender specifically waiting six or 12 months before initiating legal proceedings, but in practice, over the history of it, lenders would not go straight to commencing legal proceedings against a customer immediately that customer fell into arrears. The moratorium has put some formality around it and given an absolute certainty to borrowers that they have that breathing space and can use that time to try to put in place some kind of solution or alternative to work through the debt problem.

Is the moratorium a breathing space? I assume it means the proceedings are not issued until after the six or 12 months. Are the borrowers getting legal letters during the moratorium period or are banks preparing the proceedings during the moratorium period?

Mr. Pat Farrell

All I know is that the strict definition is that legal proceedings are not initiated within that period. There is no reason the customer should take advantage of the full moratorium because the longer one lets it run, the more arrears are clocked up. A person in difficulty should try to come to an arrangement with the lender at the earliest possible opportunity. Taking advantage of the moratorium, if that is how the customer would perceive it, for six or 12 months, would probably not be in the customer's best interest because he or she is creating further arrears and adding to costs. While it is there as a breathing space, it is in the borrower's best interests to act quickly and put in place an accommodation with his or her lender because the sooner borrowers do that, the more they will keep the cost down.

Fixed-rate mortgages are very topical and have been raised in a variety of fora. There is a commercial element for lenders. All members are familiar with the fact that there are two sources of finance for banks: deposits placed by customers and wholesale markets. Members will know the cost of money is higher when one is sourcing it for longer. That is reflected in the costs banks pay for money that is put on deposit longer. If people put money on deposit for longer periods, they will get a higher rate of interest and if one borrows long in the wholesale markets one pays a higher rate of interest.

When the banks financed those fixed-rate mortgages there was a higher cost for them to put in place that finance. Ergo, if they are asked by the customer to unwind it before the contract is up, there is a cost to the bank. Each bank has been requested to submit its formula to the Financial Regulator who is checking them to ensure they are in accordance with reality and that the banks are not charging the customer an iota more than the real cost of the money to the bank. That is the case and I do not believe the regulator will find it to be anything other than that the individual lenders calculate that cost in accordance with the cost of the money to them in the first place.

Does Mr. Farrell think that is the case?

Mr. Pat Farrell

I believe that to be the case and the regulator is checking it.

On what basis? Are there guidelines?

Mr. Pat Farrell

On the basis that lenders agreed with the regulator that a formula is in place whereby they will calculate the cost based on the real cost to them of unwinding the contract with no penalties or extra charges involved. As an added assurance, the regulator is directly checking that with all lending institutions.

Does the federation have guidelines on that or information that those formulae are——

Mr. Pat Farrell

No. We are a trade body for the sector, not a regulator. That is the regulator's job. I am not saying it is not my job but the regulator has the legal authority, resources and sanctions to apply it, so it is dealing directly with that.

This is a major issue because people's incomes have been savaged through levies and all the rest and they find they are not in a position to pay the agreed fixed-rate mortgage. The level of charges that have been imposed to take them out of that within a year or two of it being finalised cannot be justified. I would like to see the basis for those. Some banks are asking borrowers for €11,000 to allow them out of a fixed-rate mortgage. Mr. Farrell talks about the long-term investment by people, but the level of income they are getting from that is very small compared with what people are paying on fixed-rate mortgages. It is very difficult for me and people under severe pressure to understand why such vast sums are being charged to allow them out of their arrangements.

Mr. Pat Farrell

I have explained it as clearly as I can. Under the Consumer Credit Act, a customer who enters into a contract to take out a fixed-rate mortgage is fully informed by the lender at the outset of any redemption cost. When a customer enters into a fixed-rate contract, he or she is fully informed of the potential costs if he or she seeks to unwind that contract prematurely. There is full transparency and knowledge for the customer who enters into that contract. That information is conveyed in the terms and conditions document, the letter of offer and so on.

If a person decides to break that fixed-rate contract subsequently there is a real cost to the bank or lender and they must be compensated for that. Otherwise they are in a loss-making situation. They must demonstrate to the regulator that the formula they use ensures they recover only the cost of the funds and the unwinding of them before the contract is over — nothing more or less. The regulator is cross-checking that and is directly responsible for monitoring it, ensuring nothing other than that is happening and there is no additional recoupment of costs by the lenders.

I accept that people enter into this contract with some explanation although perhaps not understanding it fully. However, the world has changed. The banks are being bailed out, yet there seems to be no relief whatsoever for the small guy at the bottom. There must be some recognition of the fact that times have changed and there must be clear transparency that there is this cost of €10,000, €11,000 or €12,000 and that it is not just a surcharge.

It is not just all about the charges.

The Irish Banking Federation is a representative body for more than 70 institutions. The delegation made a statement today that it is confident the formulae being applied by its members stand up and there is nothing untoward about them. It is impossible to see how, in the example I gave of somebody who wanted to switch a 12-year fixed-rate arrangement, could possibly cost almost €14,000. On what basis was the statement made that there is no rip-off and it is simply the costs involved for the bank in terms of its borrowing?

Will the witnesses provide us with the formulae used by their member institutions as we would like to know how they calculate a figure such as €14,000? What element of that is the cost incurred by the lending institution and what part is a penalty? Will the witnesses spell out the formulae used in those circumstances?

There is a penalty in some cases, although the answer to Deputy Shortall's question should be that there is no penalty. Penalty clauses are illegal. With my own mortgage I was told it would cost nothing to come off the fixed rate but I would lose the promise to go to a tracker rate after the fixed rate period ended. The bank would put me on whatever variable rate that it wanted rather than the standard rate. That is a penalty which should not be applied and it was a significant disincentive to come off the fixed rate. On that day, for some reason, there was no penalty to come off the fixed rate, although I am sure that changes on a daily basis.

The fixed rate mortgage is based on the idea of borrowing for long periods to lend for long periods. Are there any cases where banks are borrowing over a short period to lend over a longer period? In such case they are borrowing on funds they are rolling over and as they lend on a fixed rate, they would get the benefit of the reduction in interest rates over the past couple of months. That is a key point. The argument is based on the fact that banks borrow over a longer period for a fixed rate mortgage. Is that always the case?

Mr. Pat Farrell

As I understand it, the funding cost is calculated. The breakage fee is based on the amount of the finance cleared prematurely. For example, there may be a loan of €100,000 with a fixed rate over five years that is to be cleared two years ahead with an outstanding balance of €10,000. That figure is taken and multiplied by the difference between the interest rate applicable on the account on the date of drawdown — when the loan was put in place — and the interest rate available on the market for the remainder of the term on the date of clearance, and this is multiplied by the remainder of the term. I am not a professional lender or expert in the particular formulae but that is what is used.

Would Mr. Farrell repeat that?

Mr. Pat Farrell

It involves the difference between the interest rate applicable on the account on the drawdown and the interest rate available for the remainder of the term on the date of clearance.

That is the cost of funds to the bank on that date.

Mr. Pat Farrell

Yes. It is multiplied by the remainder of the term.

Is that the remainder of the fixed rate term?

It is the interest applicable at the time versus the interest rate the bank would have to pay for five years.

Mr. Pat Farrell

Yes. That is my understanding. It is multiplied by the remainder of the term.

We are asking whether the banks would necessarily have borrowed those funds for five years. Could they have borrowed those funds for a year or two years?

Mr. Pat Farrell

My understanding is that they would have had to take a hedge against that in the market.

Is the witness stating that categorically?

Mr. Pat Farrell

That is my understanding.

If the banks are borrowing over a shorter period, they could be making a gain on people with fixed rate mortgages.

Mr. Pat Farrell

In order to be absolutely clear I can revert to the Deputy. The Financial Regulator is specifically checking with all lenders the basis of the formula set out and the fact that they are not making a profit on the transaction.

The key point is whether they are borrowing money in such a fashion where they could have availed of the reduction in the interest rates and cleared a higher profit while the mortgage holder on the fixed rate is being heavily penalised.

Mr. Pat Farrell

If the Deputy follows the logic——

Mr. Pat Farrell

If the understanding is that the bank is simply recouping the coup of the money, my assertion is correct.

The formula is based on that possibly happening but it may not be the reality in the way the banks are operating. Is there a legal requirement that banks must borrow over five years in these cases? If the banks are gaining on the interest rates in the market, they should be passing that gain on to the fixed rate mortgage holder.

Initially, the witness stated his organisation did not have a role in this because it is not a regulatory body. Each of its more than 70 members has submitted its formulae to the Financial Regulator. Is the formula which has been quoted a standard and do all the body's members operate it?

Mr. Pat Farrell

It is a description of my understanding of how the process works. From general inquiries, that is my understanding of how lenders generally apply that formula.

Does the organisation have any guidelines?

Mr. Pat Farrell

No, we do not.

Is the formula operated by all the members?

Mr. Pat Farrell

This is a matter between individual banks and the regulator. It is the Financial Regulator's responsibility to ensure that the formula applied by the banks in each individual case does not bring about an advantage in terms of making any additional profit on the transaction other than recouping the cost to them of unwinding the contract before its due date.

Is there a standard formula or do all the members apply different formulae?

Mr. Pat Farrell

I do not know the answer to that question.

Where did the witness get the formula he has just provided?

Mr. Pat Farrell

That is my general understanding, from inquiries, as to what is the general formula used.

Will the witness find out if all the organisation's members operate that formula and revert to us?

Mr. Pat Farrell

Yes.

Deputy O'Donnell has nailed the point. I remember signing up to a fixed rate mortgages and there was a page detailing how to break from the fixed rate and what the formula is in that case. The nub of the matter is how the banks apply the formula and whether the application of the formula is congruent to their operations.

That is the key point. Interest rates have fallen and people are still on fixed rate mortgages, which banks are holding firm. The question is whether the banks have been out in the market, rolling over the money they have borrowed at lower interest rates and gaining a higher rate from the customer.

Deputy Shortall also made a valid point. Is it not unusual that there is a lack of a standard industry formula for calculating the fixed rate on a mortgage? We have a case where banks could be applying different formulae and the question is whether the Financial Regulator will consider what is happening behind the scenes. There could be different circumstances for different mortgages; one bank may borrow for the five years, another may borrow for a month and roll it over.

Any excess or gain by the bank should be passed to the customer. Currently there is a general perception that this may not be happening.

Mr. Pat Farrell

I fully understand the point being made by the Deputy and I am looking to deal with the issue in good faith. I can only answer the question to the knowledge available to me and no more than that. We do not have any role in setting formulae or interest rates because that would be entering the realms of competition law and would not be tolerable for a moment. The regulator is responsible under the consumer protection code for ensuring that the formula applied by lenders in general where there is a fixed rate contract being broken is fair, reasonable and does not take advantage of the customer. These are the facts as I understand them and the regulator would be in a position to give added detail or reassurance in that regard.

There is no evidence that what is described by Mr. Farrell is the reality. The evidence is to the contrary. People are contacting us and telling us that they have been quoted exorbitant charges for switching rates for two years, for example.

Mr. Pat Farrell

We will have to agree to differ.

We can pursue the matter further and find out the exact position.

Mr. Pat Farrell

I have outlined the position as I understand it and I am happy to give the committee any possible additional information. We are quite open about this.

We should bring the top lenders in the banks and the Financial Regulator before us again to tease out this point. Although the IBF is a representative body, I do not think Mr. Farrell will know the ins and outs of every bank's operation.

It is certainly important that we do tease it out.

We will take a note of that. Deputy Enright wanted to ask a question.

It is on a separate issue.

Mr. Pat Farrell

Shall I continue?

Yes, and I will come back in.

Mr. Pat Farrell

A question was asked about policy and guidelines for debt collection agencies. In general, banks pursue the collection of their debts directly, although there may be instances in which they use third parties to assist. I know from a discussion with the consumer director, Mary O'Dea, that in such situations the third party is expected to work under the directions of the consumer protection code. In other words, it cannot adopt a different approach or policy to that which the bank is obliged to follow under the code, which is to act in a fair and reasonable way with the customer. For example, in the case of a mortgage debt, the bank must apply the conditions of the code of practice on mortgage arrears, take account of the MABS protocol which has been signed off with the federation and so on.

Before Mr. Farrell goes on to the next question, could he tell us the number of repossession orders that have been initiated since the start of this year?

Mr. Pat Farrell

The number of cases initiated in the first quarter was 207. I do not have any figures for the second. These figures are supplied by the Courts Service.

Mr. Pat Farrell

I am using the definition used by the Courts Service, which is new cases initiated for possession of land or premises. To elaborate on that, repossession orders are for all property, not just for family homes. They also relate to lands and investment properties. Thus, the figures cover all properties. There is also a caveat, namely, the initiation of a repossession order does not necessarily result, ultimately, in repossession.

How many of those are home mortgages?

Mr. Felix O’Regan

The Courts Service does not break it down.

The figures were broken down for 2008 so surely the witnesses should be able to break them down for 2009.

Mr. Pat Farrell

We did that for actual repossessions.

What is number of actual repossessions?

Mr. Pat Farrell

The figure for the first quarter of the year is 40 mortgages.

I ask for clarification on the issue we were discussing before we went to vote. Mr. Farrell said more cases were taken in the Circuit Court than in the High Court. However, the statistics from the Courts Service do not bear this out. They state that in 2008, 238 orders for residential and non-residential repossession were made in the High Court, while the total in the Circuit Court was 225.

Mr. Pat Farrell

Does that include sub-prime lenders?

Mr. Pat Farrell

I think it does. I can only speak from the perspective of my members when I say that the majority of cases are initiated in the Circuit Court.

Could we have a breakdown of the actual figures? I would like to know the number of repossessions that do not go to court at all, as well as those that go to the Circuit Court and the High Court.

Mr. Pat Farrell

Is the Deputy referring to voluntary repossessions?

Yes — the ones that are done based on the mortgage contract and which do not ever need to go to court.

Mr. Pat Farrell

Yes.

Mr. Farrell made a statement that many people choose the High Court. It is far more expensive to defend a case in the High Court than in the Circuit Court, so I do not see why.

Mr. Pat Farrell

I hope I did not say that many people would choose the High Court, although some people might. It is not always right, for either the borrower or the lender, to go to the Circuit Court in the first instance. I also noted that the High Court will not suit some people because of the fact that there are eight High Court sittings around the country and this will inevitably be more distant for many borrowers.

It is more expensive.

To expand on what Deputy Enright has asked, I would like to hear the following: the number of mortgage cases, particularly home mortgage cases, in which legal letters have issued from solicitors, either in-house or external, on behalf of the IBF's members; those in which proceedings have been issued and served; the number of repossessions; the number of repossessions in which stays have been granted, although I do not know how these are classified — I am talking about cases in which six months' or a year's stay is granted after the order; and whether they are ever acted upon. Certainly, the number of legal letters outstanding from IBF members would be a very interesting figure and would provide much more information than the number of repossessions. It might give an indication of how many are to come.

There is much outstanding information that the committee would like to have. Perhaps we could arrange another meeting. It may be an idea for us to submit our questions because we are short on information today.

I would like to hear figures on the extent of the "jingle mail" — the number of keys that have been handed back to banks since the start of the year. I do not know whether Mr. Farrell has any figures on that today.

Mr. Pat Farrell

I thought I gave those figures just a moment ago.

I am sorry; I did not catch that.

Mr. Pat Farrell

It was 40 for the first quarter of the year.

Is Mr. Farrell referring to repossessions?

Mr. Pat Farrell

Yes.

I am asking about cases in which people hand back the keys.

Mr. Pat Farrell

All right.

The other figure I would like is the number of cases in which mortgage holders who are in default continue to live in their houses and pay rent to the bank instead of paying their mortgages. Does Mr. Farrell have figures for that?

Mr. Pat Farrell

We will come back with that information.

It has been suggested that we ask the clerk to make contact with regard to another meeting.

Mr. Farrell does not have all this information at the tips of his fingers, to be fair.

I did not say that.

It is important that we get it.

Mr. Pat Farrell

I would like to put on record that we imparted quite a lot of information today. There are a number of specific areas in which we cannot have every detail, but I am happy to follow up on inquiries made by individual members.

Despite the codes of conduct that are in place — which have been established only in the last few months — the total of 40 repossessions in the first quarter of this year is quite a significant increase on the total figure for 2008, which was 96. If this rate is maintained we will be looking at 160 repossessions by the end of the year.

Mr. Pat Farrell

One must see the full-year figure to be able to make a comparison. There is no denying the fact that the trend is upwards. That is evident from the quarterly publication of those figures since they have been compiled.

Is Mr. Farrell optimistic that the code will reduce this number in any way? Will it be of any use to the people who are at this stage?

Mr. Pat Farrell

I am confident that the code is a step in the right direction and that it is offering real solutions and support for people who are in difficulty. As I said earlier, if we use our nearest neighbour as a benchmark we will see that the relative levels of repossession are completely different. In the UK there are 35 repossessions for every repossession in this jurisdiction. The two countries are not fundamentally different but a different approach is taken by lenders in the UK as opposed to here. I submit that the reason for this is the safeguards that are in place, including the code of conduct on mortgage arrears, the MABS protocol and the moratorium. These are of real and practical assistance to people, which is as it should be, because banks have an obligation in these challenging times to offer all the support they can to customers who have difficulties with debts. It should not be otherwise.

When the bank approaches a person, or a person approaches the bank to say he or she is in difficulties, what advice is given? My biggest concern — which is less the responsibility of the IBF than of the State or of MABS — is that when the staff of the debt department, who spend every day dealing with loans, foreclosures and so on, come up against a person who has only ever borrowed his or her mortgage and has no real financial dealings and no background in finance, they do not provide suitable advice. What advice do the banks give in terms of where the person can go or what help is out there? Does the bank manager simply say "You owe this; sort it out"? It is a David and Goliath situation in terms of the person's ability to negotiate with the bank's experts.

Mr. Pat Farrell

The people who work in these departments are seasoned and experienced people who have had many years of dealing with real, personal situations. It is not always easy for borrowers because if one is confronted with a debt problem it is not always easy to see the way forward. When one contacts the bank what invariably happens is that a person will sit down with the borrower and try to work out his or her exact outgoings. Inevitably, what has happened is that financial or personal circumstances have changed. One must find out the extent to which the person can demonstrate what income he or she expects over the coming period and, after deducting actual costs of basic necessities of life, what can be afforded towards continued repayment of the debt.

It may turn out, after that piece of mathematics is done, that the person will have a difficult problem for the next six months and be unable to make any payment. In that situation, there is an option whereby the bank can say it will defer the debt for a period. There may be other options. Those are the kinds of conversations that will typically take place with a person who finds himself or herself in a situation of arrears with a particularly difficult debt problem. Those conversations take place with borrowers and lenders.

There is nobody on the borrower's side. I do not suggest that is Mr. Farrell's responsibility but the borrower is there as only one individual up against an expert. Ultimately, the bank seeks to get as much money in as it can.

Mr. Pat Farrell

There are safeguards in place for the borrower. First, all the lending must be done in conformity with the consumer protection code which is monitored by the regulator. If the borrower feels at the end that he or she was sold a product improperly, or that it was not fully explained in the first instance, he or she is entitled to redress under the ombudsman's scheme. There are plenty of examples of people taking cases under that scheme who are successful. Some are not successful because it is not always the case that the customer is right. Perceptions are involved on both sides.

That is one safeguard. The other is that if the case is a particularly difficult one it will be referred, with the customer's consent, to the Money Advice and Budgeting Service, MABS. The customer then has an advocate in terms of a group of professionals who are seasoned and experienced in dealing with these kinds of difficult debt problems. They can sit down with the client and try to work out a solution. In the majority of cases, when a body such as MABS or a similar agency can bring a sense of perspective to bear on the situation and look afresh at it, one finds that there is a way through the problem and things can be put back on track, both for the borrower and the lender.

Does Mr. Farrell have a figure for car repossessions?

Mr. Pat Farrell

I do not but will endeavour to get whatever figures are available.

I thank Mr. Farrell and Mr. O'Regan for attending.

Mr. O'Regan wishes to speak.

Mr. Felix O’Regan

I refer to the credit rating and the impact. As the protocol states, "At the end of the protocol process the information recorded in the Irish Credit Bureau will reflect the closing position of the customer client account". That wording was agreed very deliberately between us and MABS. In the course of discussions on the development of the protocol it became apparent that while there are no guidelines, standards or fixed rules as to how any lender will interpret data on the Irish Credit Bureau database about me or anybody else, a lender is likely to look at the repayment programme. If the lender sees under the protocol that there were regular repayments, with a subsequent moratorium, for example, or reduced repayments that were done in accordance with the protocol, that lender is very likely to look favourably on that as distinct from a situation which may be much more out of control. In other words, no two lenders are likely to look at the credit bureau data in the same way but there is certainly a very strong sense they will look favourably on a repayment programme which has been put in place by agreement with the parties under the protocol.

The fact that the borrower might have missed a few months or had to make such arrangements is permanently available and on the borrower's credit rating.

Mr. Felix O’Regan

That would be recorded. However, as I said, a prospective lender is as or more likely to look positively on that situation. The lender will consider that this is a person who was genuine in trying to deal with a debt situation but did so through dialogue and early communication, involving the MABS money advisor and was a party to a mutually agreed affordable repayment plan. In such a situation, while we will not be telling lenders what they can and cannot do, and how they should interpret ICB data, we have a very strong sense they will look favourably on that. They see a person who has entered into an agreement under the protocol and stuck with it.

I hope Mr. O'Regan is right but I do not know.

Why is Tesco not part of that protocol? It is not listed in the annexe but is listed as one of the members.

Mr. Felix O’Regan

Which list is the Deputy looking at?

On the final page of the protocol there is a list of subscribing Irish Banking Federation creditors. From what I can see, all the lenders are included. Northern Rock or Leeds are not on it but I believe they are deposit takers. Tesco is a lender in this country and is listed as a member but is not listed as belonging to the MABS protocol. Is there a reason for that?

Mr. Felix O’Regan

Yes. The situation is that at the date on which the protocol was agreed and adopted, we alerted all institutions which conceivably might have been interested in subscribing to it. That list is the one which has advised us to date. We do not at all rule out the possibility that some other institutions within our remit will agree to be part of it.

Were there any other lenders besides Tesco? Do Nationwide, Leeds or Northern Rock lend money in this country?

Mr. Felix O’Regan

Irish Nationwide is an example——

No, I mean the English Nationwide.

Mr. Felix O’Regan

After the launch of the protocol — arising from a breakdown in communications at its end — Irish Nationwide advised us it wishes to be covered.

It is listed but I am talking about the UK body, Nationwide.

Mr. Felix O’Regan

That would be another example. There are a couple of institutions that have the option to consider whether they wish to subscribe to the protocol. MABS is very heartened by the fact that probably 95% to 97% of the credit market——

Has Tesco given any indication that it wishes to be part of it?

Mr. Pat Farrell

To answer the Deputy's direct question, we shall follow up proactively with any lenders that are not on the list and offer them the facility to sign up to the protocol.

Are there any other issues?

How are we going to deal with outstanding issues? Mr. Barrett has undertaken to return to us with a great deal of information. Perhaps members might submit requests for information and when we receive the reply we can decide whether we need another session.

We will all correspond. Are there other matters? I thank Mr. Farrell and Mr. O'Regan and I apologise for the interruption. I need to get some advice on the timespan we have left. We are about to hear a presentation from Mr. Croke, to whom I will offer our apologies. Apparently, we must vacate the room at 2.00 p.m.

How long is Mr. Croke's presentation?

Mr. Liam Croke

About ten 11 minutes.

Mr. Croke, I apologise on behalf of all members. You saw how democracy works. You are very welcome. We are now to hear a presentation by Mr. Liam Croke, a financial advisor on the current level and trends of over-indebtedness in Irish society. We are in public session and I welcome Mr. Croke. I shall ask him to commence his presentation shortly but first I draw his attention to the fact that members of this committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or an official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Croke is very welcome to make his presentation.

Mr. Liam Croke

I thank the Vice Chairman and the members of the committee for inviting me to speak today and to participate with them in their deliberations on the levels and trends of personal debt in Ireland. I am a qualified mortgage and financial adviser and I have worked in the financial services sector for the past 20 years. Currently, I work in a financial services company based in Limerick. I intend to focus specifically on people I have encountered recently who for any number of reasons face financial difficulties that are making it difficult or impossible for them to repay their mortgage in full. I have found in my daily encounters with these people that the level of debt they have accumulated in recent years has finally caught up with them. They found it hard to repay in good times so one can only imagine how much more difficult their problems have become through reductions in their income from redundancy, increased taxation, mandatory wage reductions, shorter working hours, and the cessation of overtime among others. I fear this problem will only increase throughout this year and next year. Mortgage holders feel particularly vulnerable at present. I have received feedback from many in recent months including from those in arrears and those who fear they will end up in arrears. The feedback included accounts of a lender unwilling to listen, mortgage holders who do not know what to do next or to whom to turn and a terrible feeling of dejection, desperation and isolation.

In my longer, more detailed submission I provided several examples of the circumstances of borrowers, none worse than that of a young couple I encountered from Cork who were told three weeks before Christmas that unless they brought their arrears up to date the house would be immediately repossessed. They were only one month behind, by the way.

This time last year some 14,000 mortgage holders were three months or more in arrears. This figure is a good deal higher now and if the United Kingdom, in which it is predicted there will be 500,000 people by year end with arrears of three months or more, is any measure then we face a very serious problem. It seems from recent experience that the resources and expert advice that mortgage holders badly need and seek is, unfortunately, lacking at present and this adds to the problem. For example, I was advised in recent weeks that it could take up to three months to secure an appointment with a money adviser to discuss my mortgage issues depending on my particular circumstances.

Despite encouragement to speak with lenders directly, many mortgage holders, whether out of embarrassment or fear of making a bad situation worse, are intimidated when it comes to contacting their lender because they do not know how confidently to present the situation. Many bury their heads in the sand in the hope that the situation will go away or believe there is no hope anyway so there is no reason to make contact. Others who do make contact often over-promise repayment because they believe it is what their lender wishes to hear. Many mortgage holders have told me that when they seek advice and the options available, they do not receive the help and guidance they require. A dedicated unit or mortgage task force should be set up whereby experienced, trained professionals will act as a third party when dealing with borrowers and lenders. This could be separate from or incorporated into MABS. I will refer to the unit as the mortgage advice and mediation service, MAMS.

The level of expertise and complexity of cases warrants the setting up of this function for several reasons. It would be to the forefront and take the lead in negotiating with lenders to help stop repossessions and enable people to retain their homes. Trained, knowledgeable professionals would work with lenders and they would understand lenders and their procedures. It would do exactly what is says on the tin. People must be unambiguously aware there is a specific service available and the purpose of such a dedicated unit, that is, mortgage mediation and advice. It would offer a third party perspective, and help to keep emotions at a minimum, while sound financial advice would be offered and received. Mediation between lenders and borrowers works. The experience of the farm crisis that swept across the USA in the 1980s led to the successful use of mediation between creditors and lenders to resolve loan problems before they reached the point of foreclosure or legal action. The US Congress approved $180 million in funding in December 2008 for mortgage mitigation counselling programs. These programmes were evaluated in terms of costs incurred, loans restructured and paid off as well as satisfaction rates from lenders and borrowers and they were deemed to be very successful. It was also shown that the toll on family life resulting from these problems was reduced; domestic violence rates receded and divorce rates fell.

Recent research shows only 37% of people who had fallen behind with bills and credit commitments sought any advice in the preceding six months. A unit such as MAMS would motivate more mortgage holders to contact a friendly third party, assuring lenders that existing clients or potential new arrears clients would make contact with someone, if not direct contact with the lender.

Mortgage holders seek such a service. I appeared on "The Afternoon Show" on 18 February 2009 as part of a recession clinic. Viewers were able to call me, the money and mortgage expert, and two others who dealt with employment rights and social welfare benefits. Our appearance was promoted in advance. I understand the majority of calls were mortgage related. Some 9,000 calls were made to the show in the space of two hours seeking advice. That translates as 9,000 calls in 120 minutes, or 75 every minute, from people seeking help.

A dedicated unit would go a long way to ensure lenders adhere to the code of conduct on mortgage arrears and could work in consultation and alongside them to ensure adherence. Such a service could be to the forefront of home ownership education, providing impartial and independent advice that would increase financial literacy to those starting out and existing homeowners. This is an important add on as it would help people to make better, more informed and prudent choices about how much to borrow and from whom. I refer specifically to the benefit for people considering a sub-prime mortgage. It could work alongside lenders and Government to develop and initiate new schemes, designed and targeted to help specific types of borrowers. I refer to the mortgage rescue scheme and the home owners mortgage support in the United Kingdom.

MAMS could work with lenders and borrowers to develop long-term solutions to address how arrears will eventually be repaid. Lowering repayments is a short-term solution. The problem will not go away and arrears will increase in most cases. We must develop strategies with lenders that focus on long-term solutions now. Otherwise it is a case of simply putting off the inevitable.

All new policies and strategies implemented recently focus on those in arrears, which is right and proper. However, there is a glaring omission which has not been dealt with or addressed, that is, what can be done for those who are not currently in arrears but, ultimately, if no advice, help or direction is given will almost certainly end up two or three months behind with mortgage repayments in the not too distant future. The Irish Bankers' Federation and MABS operational protocol uses the strap line, "working together to manage debt". I suggest developing a protocol and set of procedures concerned with "working together to prevent debt".

A couple informed me recently that their lender could only offer help and assistance if they were in arrears. This is shocking and completely unacceptable. Such a young couple has no wish to get into arrears and would benefit from a reduction in monthly repayments. However, they were told that unless they fall into arrears no help would be offered, another example of the near-sightedness of some lenders and the situation in which some couples find themselves. What should such people do or to where should they turn now? I advocate three words: prevention, prevention, prevention. People need a voice to help them to engage with lenders and need assistance. In many cases it is a case of pointing out the obvious, before a performing loan becomes non-performing. Lenders inform me they do not wish mortgage holders to bury their heads in the sand. Some lenders should take on board the advice they dish out.

We must examine closely the help and assistance which can be provided to those mortgage holders who, out of fear and just bad luck, fixed mortgage repayments a relatively short time ago at rates far higher than those available now. We must explore what can be done for these people to allow them to exit to cheaper, more affordable rates without incurring massive immediate penalties. In October 2008 the best two or three year fixed rate mortgage on offer was probably at 5.2%. It is possible to get a similar deal now starting at 2.8%. I appreciate the situation of the banks because they have also borrowed money at high rates when offering such fixed rates to borrowers and they continue to pay the interest on such borrowed moneys until the fixed rate period expires. However, people who have experienced a loss of income because of redundancy, for example, should be allowed to exit high fixed rate mortgages without penalty and benefit from lower interest rates and the resulting lower monthly repayments. What is the point in refusing to lower a mortgage holder's rate if they are unable to pay at 5.5% when they could pay at 3.5%? If someone were trying to benefit, they could be charged a very high exit penalty, which means they could not pay it and the likelihood is they would end up in arrears or even in complete default. Lenders should consider an easier option to repay such an exit penalty if they insist on its repayment. Why should it be repaid immediately? For example, if an exit penalty were €10,000 and ten years remained on the term of the mortgage, why not repay the penalty over the remaining 120 months? That would equate to €83.33 per month or €55.55 if spaced over 15 years. The borrower would still benefit from the lower monthly repayment and the lender would still receive the penalty incurred, albeit over a longer period.

A woman from Swords wrote to me explaining that she will be on a fixed rate mortgage for the next two years. She asked about changing and was told it would cost €5,500. She is paying 5.5% but her lender is now offering a variable rate of 2.75%. She cannot go to another provider as she is separated from her husband and fell into three months' arrears. She is paying the mortgage herself. She asked if there was anything she can do. The difference from coming out of a current repayment to a lower rate would be some €400 per month. The lower repayment would allow her to comfortably repay her mortgage and use the additional savings to start repaying and reducing her mortgage arrears.

The fixed rate agreement or penalty Deputy Shortall referred to earlier is based, I understand, on the amount outstanding, multiplied by the number of months left on the fixed rate and the difference of their current rate and the rate they would be offered on a similar product. For example, if €200,000 is outstanding on a mortgage with 24 months left on the mortgage repayments, a fixed rate of 5.2% for a two year period and a lender is offering 3.2%, the monthly repayment is calculated by using the equation 200 x 24 x 2%.

Fixed rate penalties are in loan agreements, but a NASA scientist would find it difficult to work out what the actual penalty is. Lenders should examine the possibility of putting a clause in their loan offers that if one redeems one's mortgage after year one, the penalty will be a certain amount, in year two it will be a certain amount and so on, assuming a reduction of1%. That is the clarity borrowers currently need.

I speak of my concern for those mortgage holders who are trapped at the moment and have no option other than to stick with what they have and repay their mortgage at shockingly high rates of interest. I refer to sub-prime mortgage holders. Not only are they repaying their mortgages at very high rates, but it appears that such lenders are also very quick to instigate legal proceedings and some, it would appear, are also adopting aggressive tactics for the recovery of their arrears.

I refer to my earlier example when a young couple was informed their house would immediately be repossessed three weeks before Christmas if their arrears was not brought up to date, or a recent case brought before the High Court where a lender made an initial application for repossession when the mortgage was just €4,300 in arrears. This type of borrower is unable to move at present to other lenders, even if they have a good repayment record and feel quite isolated with no plan B option for them. They cannot be forgotten and a strategy to help these people needs to be considered.

On the moratorium the committee asked about, one sub-prime lender issued a directive last week that it will accept no new cases for people who have taken out a moratorium within the past six months. Sometimes when I hear lenders and bankers will look favourably on people who have the foresight to take out a moratorium, I do not find they look at that. When they conduct a credit bureau check and find a person has missed one repayment or has taken out a moratorium — the code is "M" — it does not state the reason the person took it out. In recent weeks one lender issued a directive that no new applications would be accepted from any people who have taken out a moratorium in the past six months.

I thank the committee for its time today and ask it to consider and reflect on what I have proposed and presented, and look forward to its feedback and action in due course.

I thank Mr. Croke for his presentation. I do not have many questions because the presentation speaks for itself. I am most interested in the proposal on MAMS. I asked the Irish Bankers' Federation about what is in place for somebody who is currently in difficulty. I heard there is a significant waiting time to access MABS and the expertise needed is only available on a limited basis. People are often already substantially in debt by the time they face up to it. They have missed several monthly repayments and may then have an eight week wait to speak to somebody who may not be expert enough to negotiate with the banks.

The MAMS proposal could fill that vacuum. In terms of the people dealing with these cases, from a MABS perspective, does Mr. Croke know the proportion of cases they are dealing with or their success rate, and whether they are qualified and able to deal with the financial institutions? It one thing to deal with the ESB or Bord Gáis, who we all deal with every day, and ask them not to cut off somebody, but dealing with the financial institutions is a different matter. That point was not fully appreciated earlier. I would like Mr. Croke to expand briefly on that point after others have asked questions.

Mr. Liam Croke

I do not know the percentage of people working in MABS who are qualified financial advisers or their success rate. I understand 90% of cases are resolved over the telephone. People now need financial advice rather than advice about money. We have moved on from what MABS was originally set up for, namely, income, expenditure and budgeting. The level of cases now warrant much more experienced and knowledgeable professionals.

They all do a fantastic job, but I have encountered several people who went to MABS who then tried to negotiate on their behalf, but it fell on deaf ears. I do not know if this is because of how the information is presented or whether it is a particular lender's fault, but if there is intervention by someone who is more experienced and knows how the banks operate, the success rate seems to be much higher.

When the intervention is made on peoples' behalf are they successful? That is my concern. I have contacted people on behalf of other people and it can be successful, but the people who do not go anywhere, do not know where to go or have nowhere to go are the people I am concerned about.

Mr. Liam Croke

That is why a unit such as MAMS would be helpful. It is unambiguous and spells out exactly what service it provides, namely, mediation and advice. I refer to it as a "friendly third party". Many people who have gone to their bank have told me their success depends on who they deal with.

I dealt with a case where a couple went into a prime lender in Cork to ask for a mortgage break, and the man who sold them the mortgage did not come out to them but said, "You can take a break". They were given no advice about how it would affect their credit rating or how it would eventually be repaid. That is discouraging for people because the perception gets out that people went to their lender but it was no good. People need a clear, unambiguous source of information. It is also about prevention of debt and not just helping those in arrears.

I refer to the couple I helped. The man is self-employed and the woman is a garda who is out of work because of an accident. They went to their local prime bank and said things were difficult and they were on a fixed rate, and asked how they could lower their monthly repayments. The bank told them it could not give them any advice unless they were in arrears. In many cases, lenders will draw major problems upon themselves.

Some lenders offer different rates to new and existing customers. One bank is currently offering a two year fixed rate of 5.25% to existing customers and a two year fixed rate of 3.6% to new customers. I would love to know how many customers of that bank are in arrears and are paying 5.25% when new customers are paying 3.6%. The difference on a €200,000 mortgage over 30 years is some €200 per month. The bank concerned distinguishes between new and existing customers and the difference between borrowing the same amount of money with the same terms is €200 a month.

How many people on the existing two year fixed rate would benefit from the €200 reduction? Many people are existing mortgage holders, greater than seven years in existence, and now feel the loss of €75 or whatever their mortgage interest relief was. Many lenders were using the mortgage interest relief as an additional payment on their mortgage and that is now gone.

I would like to clarify several issues. In his presentation, Mr. Croke went into detail on how the cost of switching is calculated, which was not in the presentation we received. Does he have that information separately?

Mr. Liam Croke

I do not have it. I provided the information to clarify the question asked by the first speaker.

I can get it. Mr. Croke used the term "penalty". Did he consciously use that term? If there are costs involved for the bank; that is not a penalty. I am keen to establish whether the costs are calculated and a penalty is applied on top of that, and if that is how the banks operate.

Mr. Liam Croke

I am referring to the way mortgage holders feel that it is a redemption penalty, that they are being penalised for exiting their fixed rate agreement before it expires.

So in Mr. Croke's experience do institutions impose a penalty on top of what they claim to be their costs for changing?

Mr. Liam Croke

No.

Do the charges or penalties vary?

Mr. Liam Croke

I am referring to one of the major banks covered by the Government guarantee scheme. That is its simplistic formula. I think the rest of the banks apply it but it is for each bank to do that and show simplistically how it calculates its costs.

Mr. Croke used the phrase to "take out a moratorium". Is that a recognised step that a person must take to avail of the moratorium? Mr. Croke seemed to imply that if a person avails of a moratorium it goes on his or her credit rating.

Mr. Liam Croke

I am talking about a moratorium on a person's monthly repayments. A person might take a three-month break from his or her repayments rather than a moratorium before legal proceedings start. If a person asks for a moratorium for three months that means he or she will not make any monthly repayments for the next three months. That will be recorded in the person's credit bureau and will come up as MMM.

When that person looks for credit in the future an underwriter will look at the credit check and see MMM and will not delve into why the person sought the moratorium because there might be 50 other applications. Once the underwriter sees the moratorium he or she will not be interested in the application. It would be great if the underwriter decided to find out more about how the moratorium came about but that depends on how it is presented. I would like to see how banks respond if a person applies to a bank for credit and says up front that he or she sought a moratorium because he or she was having difficulty. That is the test.

Mr. Croke makes a good case for a mediation service but given his experience, apart from the need for a third party to get involved and provide advice, are there other glaring obstacles for people, legislatively or from any other consumer protection point of view? Is there anything else that needs to be changed?

Mr. Liam Croke

No. I cannot stress enough that MABS encourages self-reliance. It helps people to take ownership of their problems which is fantastic. In these times, however, when peoples' homes are at risk and they are having difficulty putting food on the table, people do not want to be self-reliant, they want help and need a unit or task force to help them with their biggest asset, the family home. It is unacceptable to have to wait three months for someone to talk to them about their mortgage problems. This will reach breaking point.

The Master of the High Court said only a couple of days ago that there are 100 such cases a week. It is incredible. These are not related to people who are unemployed. They arose 12 or 18 months ago. There will be an avalanche of cases in the next two or three years if this is not dealt with. Are some lenders saying they will take a minimum monthly repayment, which is as good as rent, instead of repossessing a depreciating property, and waiting for the market to recover somewhat before going out to actively repossess properties?

Prevention is the key strategy for people who are not in arrears but fear that they will fall into arrears. I have given the committee examples of e-mails, texts and letters from people asking where to turn. One person went to a prime lender in County Limerick. She was recently separated and had one child but was refused an extension of the term of her mortgage, and told an interest-only mortgage was only for commercial mortgages. When she asked what options were open to her she was told to go to the social welfare office and ask for a rent supplement. She is a homeowner. I know that these are extreme cases but there should be a uniform approach. Borrowers would be encouraged if the banks spelt out what services are available to them, such as extending the term of their mortgages.

The homeowner rescue scheme in the United Kingdom is designed for people who have a sharp reduction in income but whose circumstances should improve in the next six or 12 months, for example, if one income in a two-income household is lost. The mortgage company will automatically switch from interest and capital to interest only and then agree a certain percentage, not greater than 30% of the interest, that can be paid. There was an example in my detailed submission. That gives people great comfort. It also helps the lenders because arrears will continue to accumulate and there are no long-term strategies.

Much of the voluntary surrender, the keys in the mail, occurs because people think that the only exit strategy is for the lenders to repossess their properties. We need to develop long-term strategies for an exit mechanism and show that it is not repossession. It might involve recapitalising one's arrears or a host of options but people say to me we are bailing out the banks but where is the assistance for us. Some people have good experiences with banks and others have terrible experiences with the same banks. Banks treat people differently. They are more willing to listen to me acting on behalf of a mortgage holder than to the mortgage holder. That has been so in numerous cases in the past two or three months.

Mr. Croke is a gentleman. I am sorry that we held him up. It was a very interesting discussion. Well done to him. I thank him on behalf of us all.

I thank my colleagues for their cooperation.

Before we adjourn can we decide how we will proceed with the Irish Banking Federation?

We will go into private session for a couple of minutes.

The joint committee went into private session at 1.45 p.m. and adjourned at 1.50 p.m. until Wednesday, 8 July 2009.
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