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JOINT COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL AND FAMILY AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 14 Oct 2009

Energy Affordability: Discussion.

As the Chairman has been detained in County Kerry, I will chair the meeting, if members are agreeable.

We will hear a briefing by the interdepartmental and agency group on energy affordability on the progress made in developing and implementing a cross-cutting strategy on energy affordability. I welcome Mr. St. John O'Connor, Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources; Ms Catherine Hazlett, Dr. Orlaigh Quinn and Mr. Joe Morrin, Department of Social and Family Affairs; Mr. Philip Nugent, Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government; Ms Fiona Hannon, Commission for Energy Regulation; Ms Louise Murphy, ESB; Ms Helen McAvoy, Institute of Public Health; Ms Majella Kelleher, Sustainable Energy Ireland; and Mr. Pádraig Fleming and Ms Tracy Kennedy, Bord Gáis Éireann. The representatives and their support personnel are welcome. Before I invite Mr. O'Connor to commence the briefing——

Has the committee taken all of these public servants away from their work to meet us today?

That is our fault; we should not have done so.

Is the Deputy putting up his hand in that respect?

I will take responsibility for it as a member of the committee.

I invite Mr. O'Connor to commence the briefing on the progress made in developing and implementing a cross-cutting strategy on energy affordability. I ask him to ensure, in so far as is possible, that the presentation does not exceed ten minutes, although I appreciate that is a tight timeframe. A vote may be called in the Dáil and if it is, we will have to suspend the sitting for the duration of the vote.

I draw attention to the fact that while members of the joint committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. St. John O’Connor

I apologise for the unavoidable absence of Sarah White, deputy secretary general of the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources and, along with Ms Catherine Hazlett, the co-chair of the affordable energy group. Ms White has a long-standing commitment outside the country but she sends her regrets.

I and my colleagues from the Department of Social and Family Affairs and the affordable energy group welcome this opportunity to outline to the Joint Committee on Social and Family Affairs our contribution to alleviating the effects of energy policy. Our presentation will be delivered by various members of the group as we believe this is the most appropriate mechanism for demonstrating how the underlying causes of energy policy are being addressed on collective and individual bases.

In an era when volatile fuel prices are having a significant impact on Irish energy costs, the need for a close and mutually reinforcing relationship between energy and social policy is ever more important. Increasingly, the alignment of diverse policy areas will be needed to secure effective interventions for the most vulnerable in society. In my own area of energy efficiency and affordability, the single greatest action that can be taken to protect households is improving thermal efficiency. The more work we can do to reduce demand for energy through structural or behavioural change, the less risk of households falling into energy poverty. However, the challenge is extensive.

We have tried to keep our presentation as brief as possible, although members will recognise that it addresses an inherently complicated issue with many interconnections between relevant Departments, agencies and bodies. The presentation comprises four elements. I will begin by providing a summary of the role and work of the group, followed by a description of the methodologies used to determine the extent of the problem and the differing figures that result. The presentation will then attempt to highlight the actions being taken to mitigate the three underlying causes of energy policy, namely, thermal inefficiency, high energy prices and low levels of income. The representatives from ESB and Bord Gáis will then outline some of the issues they face on a daily basis and the actions they are taking in response. The concluding section of the presentation will identify the group's future initiatives and work.

As the committee will be aware, the affordable energy group was first convened in July 2008 and has met seven times to date. Its current membership comprises the Departments of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Social and Family Affairs, the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Finance and the Taoiseach, and Bord Gáis, ESB, Sustainable Energy Ireland, the Commission for Energy Regulation and, more recently, the Institute of Public Health. The committee will also be familiar with the overarching context of the group's work as articulated in the energy policy framework published in March 2007 and the national action plan for social inclusion 2007-16.

Over the past year, the group has benefited from a number of informative presentations from the Institute of Public Health, Energy Action, Age Action Ireland, the Economic and Social Research Institute, the Northern Ireland Utility Regulator and the chair of the fuel poverty advisory group in the North. Each presentation has helped to inform decision making on a collective as well as an individual basis. For example, the striking presentation given by Age Action Ireland directly led to the creation of the pilot warmer homes scheme plus. The group's collective deliberation has informed the drafting and publication of the energy poverty elements of the national energy efficiency action plan. The group has also worked with SEI to refresh and republish the Keep Well and Warm booklet, which has been circulated to members. More than 132,000 copies of this booklet have been distributed this year alone. Members of the group have also collaborated with SEI and other members of the research community on the fuel poverty action research project.

At our last meeting with the joint committee, clarity was sought on the causes and extent of energy poverty in Ireland. It is widely acknowledged that energy poverty rests primarily on three pillars, namely, a lack of thermal efficiency in the home, high energy prices and low levels of income. Depending upon individual circumstances, each attribute can have a greater or lesser impact on the extent to which a household is at risk of energy poverty. We have attempted to structure our presentation in a manner which will give members a sense of the scale of the issue and the collective actions being taken to address the underlying causes of energy poverty.

One of the greatest challenges in this area is identifying a platform for measuring energy poverty which is both robust and serves the needs of policy makers, NGOs and others. The three main methods used in this regard are the expenditure method, subjective measures and objective measurement of residential conditions. As we do not at present collect data on the third option, objective measurement, I will not discuss it today. Of the three, the expenditure method is perhaps the most well known and easiest to reference. The method is derived from Boardman's somewhat arbitrary figure of 10% of net income being required to meet the energy needs of a household, including transport. Given the arbitrary nature of the figure, this method is somewhat unsatisfactory in the absence of further examination in an Irish context. The ESRI has estimated that in 2008, 19.4% of the population would have come within this definition, which equates to slightly over 300,000 persons. The expenditure method is used in the UK as its benchmark definition.

If we look at subjective measurements, such as the number of households reporting an inability to afford sufficient heat, one finds the much lower figure of approximately 3.6% in 2006, or 56,000 households. However, the expenditure method and subjective measurement represent differing perspectives on energy poverty and, as such, neither is inherently correct or incorrect. As I will discuss in my concluding remarks, the group will seek to clarify this issue in its future initiatives.

I regret to interrupt Mr. O'Connor but we must suspend as a vote is taking place in the Dáil. The meeting will resume as soon as the vote has concluded.

Sitting suspended at 11.55 a.m. and resumed at 12.20 p.m.

I apologise for the requirements of the democratic process, over which I have no control. I ask Mr. O'Connor to continue.

Mr. St. John O’Connor

I will begin again with the domestic energy deficits. I mentioned that the three underlying causes of energy poverty were thermal inefficiency, high energy prices and low levels of income. The next four slides seek to demonstrate to the committee the measures being taken by us, Sustainable Energy Ireland and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to address thermal inefficiency. It is also worth mentioning that the measures are closely aligned with each other, technical standards are shared and that the targeting of potential recipients is carefully monitored. The latest figures, shown on the slide, indicate the number of measures outstanding and the number delivered to date. They are provided by Sustainable Energy Ireland. They give a good overview of the extent of the challenge facing us if we are to retrofit existing private housing to a suitable standard. I do not propose to discuss them in detail but believe it is useful for the committee to see them.

For the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, the focus remains very much on improving the thermal efficiency of the housing stock. This is one of the core goals of the energy division. The primary mechanism through which this is done is the warmer homes scheme and the excellent work Sustainable Energy Ireland has undertaken to enhance it since it began in 2001 with a budget of €200,000. Currently, €20 million is available for the scheme from the Exchequer, the ESB and Bord Gáis Éireann.

Let me outline the scale of the increase in recent years. In 2007, 3,378 homes were retrofitted. This increased to 5,343 last year and there is a target of 5,000 this year. That includes some of the ESB's measures, about which Ms Murphy will talk. Central to the process is the presence of a robust community-based network. Six new organisations have come on board this year and we hope to have nationwide coverage in the very near future. This year will also see the introduction of a pilot programme, to which I referred and which investigates the cost and implications of a set of broader, deeper energy efficiency measures. A limited number of households have been targeted for these measures and I hope the findings will inform future scheme design.

The ESB has introduced a complementary programme based on the warmer homes scheme specifications. Ms Murphy will discuss this programme. It is exciting that we are examining new measures and channels of delivery to ensure the homes most in need are subject to energy efficiency retrofit measures.

Mr. Nugent from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government will discuss complementary initiatives under way to improve the thermal efficiency of domestic buildings.

Mr. St. John O'Connor stated he had a comment to make on the expected duration of the process.

Mr. St. John O’Connor

We hope to conclude between 1 p.m. and 1.30 p.m. because a number of delegates have meetings after lunch.

We will park that matter and let those present think about it for a few minutes.

Mr. Philip Nugent

I will be as brief as possible. I just want to update members on programmes under way and some developments since we were last before the committee. As the committee is aware, in recent months and years the energy efficiency agenda has become increasingly important in the design, delivery and management of social housing. There is now a significant focus on the progression of the greening of the social housing stock. This has the twin objectives of improving energy efficiency to reduce emissions from the residential sector, while also yielding a fuel efficiency dividend for social housing tenants, in particular. We are pursuing a multi-stranded approach, targeting new dwellings, existing dwellings and the ongoing management of the local authority housing stock.

With regard to energy efficiency of new buildings, as with all construction projects, new local authority housing is subject to the requirements of the current building regulations. Part L of the regulations which deals——

Is Mr. Nugent using a particular note or slide?

Mr. Philip Nugent

It is my own note.

Has it been circulated?

Mr. Philip Nugent

Yes.

I thank Mr. Nugent. I am sorry for interrupting him.

Mr. Philip Nugent

The Department is also committed to pushing beyond the recommended levels in the 2010 building regulations to achieve an improvement in the order of 60% over 2005 levels in terms of energy efficiency and carbon dioxide emissions.

To support local authorities in developing expertise in delivering highly energy efficient dwellings, the Department has set aside a fund of €20 million to support a number of "towards carbon-neutral" demonstration projects. It is expected the dwellings provided under the building standards regulations will, at least, be in category B or A2.

Two initiatives relate primarily to new construction projects but the Department has made significant investment in improving the energy efficiency of the existing stock under the national central heating programme. Although central heating has been provided in all new local authority dwellings as a matter of course since 1994, there were an estimated 36,000 dwellings constructed prior to that date without any form of central heating. To address this deficit, a special programme was introduced in 2004 for the installation of central heating in the dwellings, in addition to insulation measures and temperature controls.

On new remedial work schemes, action has been taken in ensuring all new schemes approved include provision to raise the BER rating of the dwellings included under the scheme. To date, the Department has issued approval for the inclusion of 22 new remedial works projects around the country under a three-year remedial works programme.

To ensure the stock of local authority owned dwellings is maintained at a high standard and delivers on energy efficiency requirements, a fund of €20 million has been set aside within the social housing investment programme in 2009 for the retrofitting of insulation and improvements in energy efficient measures in respect of vacant properties. I refer to casual and planned vacancies across the local authority housing stock. Funding is available under this programme for the retrofitting of apartment complexes where the nature of the works will not require tenant relocation. All properties improved under the fund will be required to achieve a rating of at least C1 following the works.

Using ring-fenced funding of €5 million, announced in the October budget, the Department will support a number of demonstration projects on the retrofitting of insulation and improvement of energy efficiency measures in existing stock. Two demonstration projects are at an advanced stage of planning and remediation work is to begin early in 2010.

We are undertaking a comprehensive review of the remaining local authority housing stock. At the end of 2008 there were an estimated 123,000 social housing units around the country, managed and maintained by local authorities. To improve our understanding of the current state of the stock and plan for better management thereof, the Department has committed to undertaking a comprehensive review of the condition of the stock late this year. The condition survey is designed to examine, among other topics, the ageing condition of the buildings, the energy rating, where available, and the type and extent of central heating, insulation and other energy efficiency measures in the dwellings. The survey will be carried out in a number of phases in the next year and the results will be used to inform and direct investment to the greatest effect.

There is a suite of adaptation grants for older people and people with a disability.

It is very hard to follow. I have been looking at the circulated documentation and cannot find what Mr. Nugent is referring to.

Mr. Philip Nugent

There are two slides dealing with initiatives of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. I addressed the public housing stock first and I am now moving to private housing stock. The main point in this regard concerns adaptation grants for older people and people with a disability.

Mr. Nugent is moving a bit fast for us.

Mr. Philip Nugent

I am mindful of the fact that we have been asked to get through the information as quickly as possible.

I will finish on the issue of adaptation grants for older people and people with a disability. These grants replace the disabled persons' grants and other grants introduced at the end of 2007. The first full year was 2008. The initial combined Exchequer and local authority allocation for this year was €79.5 million, which represented an increase of 11.4% increase on the initial allocation for 2008. I am mindful of the fact that last year the members of the committee were particularly interested in the adaptation grants and funding difficulties. The simple fact is that funding falls short of demand and will do so again this year, despite the increases.

Mr. Philip Nugent

Not in all areas. There was an announcement earlier this week that there would be an additional €12.5 million for grant schemes of local authorities which sought supplementary allocations.

Is that for between now and December?

Mr. Philip Nugent

For this year. The money has been made available to the local authorities concerned.

Is it to be spent by December?

Mr. Philip Nugent

It is to be spent by the end of the year.

Is it just to cover existing applications?

Mr. Philip Nugent

It is to cover whatever demand the local authority has and whatever it wants to use it for.

There is great demand and the lists have been closed.

Mr. Philip Nugent

Some local authorities have done so.

Will they remain closed? Is this just to clear the backlog?

Mr. Philip Nugent

It will depend on the local authority and the extent of demand in its jurisdiction. I cannot say.

How is priority accorded? How is one county accorded priority over another considering that there is only €12.5 million available?

Mr. Philip Nugent

It is accorded to the local authorities which sought supplementary allocations. Some have not done so.

That is the end of my contribution. The grants are being reviewed by the centre for housing research. I will hand over to Ms Hannon from the Commission for Energy Regulation.

Ms Fiona Hannon

I am starting with the slide on recent price changes and customer rebates. It provides information on the changes that have occurred in electricity and natural gas prices in the past two years.

The next slide deals with the factors affecting Irish energy prices. There are a number of reasons for the energy prices that prevail. For a long period no price increases were granted to the ESB and this was coupled with rapid growth in electricity demand. This resulted in a legacy of under-investment in infrastructure. A key issue associated with energy prices is our dependency on fossil fuels for the generation of electricity. Ireland is one of the most dependent countries in the European Union in this regard and over 90% of our electricity is generated using fossil fuels. Approximately 60% of electricity is generated from gas, with a further 20% from coal.

Our dependency on fossil fuels, geographical location and isolation from mainland Europe are such that we import a lot of fossil fuel. Given the small size of our electricity market and the lack of interconnection, our power generation plants tend to be smaller than those elsewhere in Europe. There are fewer economies of scale to benefit from. It is important to note that our population is widely dispersed, with approximately 60 people per square kilometre. This contrasts with the United Kingdom where there are 244 people per square kilometre. This leads to the provision of approximately 84 m of wires per customer, as opposed to an average in other countries of 49 m per customer.

The next slide shows a snapshot of electricity generation in Europe using fossil fuels. As can be seen, Ireland is second only to Greece, while France uses fossil fuels to generate approximately 10% of its electricity. In France electricity costs are not subject to fluctuations in fossil fuel prices on international markets. Neither is electricity subject to carbon tax.

The next slide deals with the work of the Commission for Energy Regulation in ensuring consistency across the industry in the area of consumer protection. In 2006 the commission approved codes of practice and customer charters for all suppliers of domestic energy. These require a minimum level of protection for all customers. Our guidelines require suppliers to ensure there is no disconnection of elderly customers in winter months. They also provide for no disconnection of electrical life-support customers throughout the year for non-payment of bills. This is done through the provision of two industry registers, one for natural gas suppliers and one for electricity suppliers. All suppliers are required to sign up their customers to these registers which are held centrally by ESB Networks and Bord Gáis Networks. These provisions cover both Airtricity and Flogas, as well as the ESB and Bord Gáis.

With regard to customers who run into difficulties or experience fuel poverty, all suppliers are required to work with customers or their representatives or financial advisers to ensure they are afforded every opportunity to make payment on their bills before any form of disconnection is requested. They are also required to offer payment plans to customers who need them. We are reviewing the guidelines and looking at new areas for inclusion. These include deposits and how they are held and how arrears are dealt with by suppliers.

Dr. Orlaigh Quinn

I have given the committee updated data on social welfare payments. With the permission of the Chair, I will not go through the figures but I will be happy to clarify them or give members more information. The third slide which deals with income supports for households includes the value of the gas and electricity allowance per household. In October, in line with decreases in gas and electricity prices, the value of the units has come down. The actual increase was from €465 to €488 per annum. I can follow this up in writing to the committee if required.

Ms Louise Murphy

I will brief the committee on the measures the ESB has taken in the last while. The ESB intends to continue to support all its customers, particularly low income families, through the current climate.

Electricity prices have a big impact on low income homes. The ESB has done a great deal to ameliorate the impact of price increases. It has put more than €500 million into tariffs this year to avoid passing on some of the high energy costs in 2008. As a result, there was no price change in January this year and a price reduction was brought forward from October to May. The focus of these interventions and supports was on alleviating the pressure of high electricity prices on businesses and consumers. A considerable contribution was made in that regard.

For many years the ESB has focused on supporting customers in paying their electricity bills. This has been a key feature of our customer care programme for many years. Given the current climate, we are seeing more customers with debt problems and have ramped up our activity levels in that regard. In 2008 we had 49,000 customers with special payment arrangements compared with 78,000 in the first nine months of this year. This is a good measure of the number of homes which are struggling with their electricity debt. We work very closely with MABS and the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and collaboratively focus on encouraging consumers to come forward early when the debt is small in order that we can come to an arrangement to tackle it, rather than have to deal with it when it becomes a disconnection issue. The increase in numbers shows this support is working very well.

We have installed approximately 22,000 budget controller meters in low income homes. They are focused on helping customers to manage their electricity bills. We hope to install a further 10,000 meters in the winter period. They will focus on areas where there is critical debt and helping households to manage their electricity bills. We also administer the free electricity allowance to 316,000 elderly people. We have a strong focus on energy efficiency. We look at improving the housing stock of low income homes and provide direct information and advice on how to use electricity in the home to reduce consumption and bring down bills.

We have made a considerable investment in resources. We have an energy services function focusing on this issue and rolling out programmes. We have also put €2 million into the SEI warm homes scheme to increase the number of households which are being improved. We are seeing the results. In our own internal programme we have a target of 3,000 home insulation projects to be completed by December. We are well on target in meeting this objective. Our teams are also working on the HALO programme which is aimed at carrying out energy audits in homes, both of general consumers and low income customers. We provide audits which give a report or information to householders on specific things they can do to reduce their electricity bills. Our target is to complete 25,000 audits by the end of the year. We are also well on target in that regard.

We sponsored a training programme executed by Energy Action. Community representatives were trained in how to provide advice for low income families on how to use electricity efficiently. The programme has been completed and the representatives concerned are now providing such advice in the community. When homes are upgraded under the warm homes scheme, they also receive information and advice on how to reduce usage.

The ESB is heavily involved in the implementation of the smart metering programme and meters are now being installed. From January 2010 we will be trialling a programme under which 5,000 domestic customers will be offered new tariffs with incentives to reduce usage. The pilot programme will provide information on how households can use the technology of smart metering to manage electricity usage. It will trial how information available to householders will help them to manage usage in real time in the home. We hope this information will inform the appropriate roll-out of a full programme.

We are committed to providing good service for our customers. We have seven customer service guarantees which cover the range of our service activities, including billing, payment and complaints, on which we work very hard to deliver for our customers. In particular, we have a code of practice on special services which is aimed at providing particular services for more vulnerable customers such as people with special needs and older people who, for example, we do not disconnect in the winter period. We work very hard to make sure these commitments are right for our customers.

We are working hard to provide the supports we consider consumers need in the current climate, those who have and have not experienced fuel poverty in the past. We intend to continue that work.

Ms Tracy Kennedy

I intend to bring the joint committee up to speed with what Bord Gáis Energy has done to deal with the issues of fuel affordability and financial hardship since we last met at this forum. Bord Gáis has delivered an overall reduction in energy bills through a number of initiatives, including the "big switch" campaign. Over 270,000 domestic electricity customers are now benefitting from electricity prices that are between 12% and 14% cheaper than those of the ESB. As a result of gas price reductions to levels below those of October 2006, the gas bills of residential customers have decreased by an average of 19% and those of small and medium-sized enterprises have decreased by an average of 24.1%. Bord Gáis extends energy efficiency advice and promotes other initiatives to help its customers to manage their overall electricity and gas costs.

I would like to speak about bill payment options. Like the ESB, Bord Gáis offers a pre-payment metering facility in order that its customers can manage their costs on a daily, weekly or monthly basis. Approximately 35,000 meters have been installed nationwide and there is an aggressive plan to increase that number. Free installation which is offered to customers who find themselves in particular difficulties is facilitated through the Money Advice and Budgeting Service and the Society of St. Vincent de Paul. The real benefit of the metering system to customers is that as it allows Bord Gáis to collect any potential debts or arrears they may have on an incremental basis, they cannot end up without access to heat. Bord Gáis also provides budget direct debit facilities which allow customers to spread their payments over a full year. Seasonality is a factor for Bord Gáis in a way it might not be for the ESB. Gas is sometimes turned off in the summer, which means gas bills can be much higher in the winter. We facilitate a level payment scheme for customers which allows them to manage their costs throughout the year.

Bord Gáis works with the Department of Social and Family Affairs to ensure gas and electricity allowances are provided for customers without too much difficulty. We have put in place a plan that delivers the electricity allowance to those customers who have switched to us and benefit from it. We are considering how to improve that process in order that it will be easier and not seen as a barrier. Bord Gáis is the first company to participate in the smart metering trial at a dual-fuel level. We participated in the ESB's electricity smart metering trial and our own gas smart metering trial is under way. Both initiatives will help customers to manage their costs, understand their consumption patterns and adjust their behaviour to ensure they do not spend too much on fuel.

We are excited about a major new initiative aimed at the provision of energy efficiency measures in the home which will commence in January or February of next year. As things stand, Bord Gáis services over 75,000 boilers each year. We intend to build on this platform to provide a real solution for customers and ensure energy efficiency is centre-stage. We would like to give our customers some ways of managing and controlling their costs. We have contributed €2.4 million to Sustainable Energy Ireland over a two-year period in the context of the warmer homes scheme. Ms Murphy spoke about the ESB's position, as set out in its customer charter. Equally, Bord Gáis is committed to ensuring the codes of practice it has agreed with its external stakeholders and customers represent a reflection of best practice. We have extended the codes to cover our electricity customers. As we have introduced new activities across the entire sales arena, we have developed further new codes of practice in that regard. We are ensuring best practice is also pursued in that respect.

Mr. St. John O’Connor

I will take the joint committee through the final slide — the future initiatives slide — which sets out the Department's work programme for the coming months. It is of fundamental importance that the affordable energy group is kept together to act as a focal point for strategic direct involvement in this area. It will continue to meet in the coming months and into next year to take account of new research and devise new responses to the important challenges we face. One of the first challenges we will face this winter will be to refresh and reprint the Keep Well and Warm booklet. As I said, Sustainable Energy Ireland has already distributed 130,000 copies of the booklet. It is important that we make sure the booklet maintains its relevance and value to those at risk. With the website, www.wellandwarm.ie, the booklet forms a central part of our communications strategy which we will revise to leverage existing networks and develop new channels of communication. While the booklet has been widely disseminated, there is a sense in which new opportunities can be realised. The affordable energy group will work intensively to exploit them. The Minister, Deputy Ryan, recently asked the group to develop an affordable energy strategy to be published for consultation at the end of the year. Work on the new strategy has commenced, with draft terms of reference to be forwarded to the Minister in the next week.

The joint committee will be aware that the national energy efficiency action plan which was published by the Minister and Mr. Amory Lovins in May this year dedicated a chapter to affordable energy and set some of the context that has informed today's proceedings. As part of my remit on the energy efficiency side, I will actively seek to ensure the measures identified in the action plan are implemented. The committee may also be aware that a recent national consultation exercise focused on the energy demand reduction target programme which is similar in concept to the carbon emissions reduction target programme in Great Britain. The consultation document highlighted the potentially important role of such a programme in delivering energy efficient services to those in society with the most need. The equivalent schemes in other jurisdictions can divert up to 40% of the energy efficiency targets of low income households. The steering group will work with the affordable energy group to ensure proposals are brought to the Government in the near future.

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for the attention they have shown to this presentation. I would welcome any questions they may have.

I thank the delegation. I propose to take comments and questions from members of the committee. If they wish to target their questions to a particular member of the delegation, they may do so.

I wish to begin by apologising to the delegation for the manner in which this meeting has been run. Perhaps there has been a lack of communication on the part of the Chairman. I do not refer to the Vice Chairman who is present.

I thank the Deputy for acknowledging that point.

The clerk to the committee is doing her best to organise these meetings. I am not sure so many delegates need to be present, but that is another issue. It is unsatisfactory and unacceptable that they were brought in so late because we had something else on the agenda. I do not know whether the time at which these meetings tend to be scheduled suits the Chairman, as he does not seem to be able to be present a lot of the time. I do not know what level of communication there is between the Chairman, the clerk and the rest of the committee. The way we are operating is not satisfactory, from my perspective.

I had intended to suggest at a later stage that this matter could be included on the agenda for the next meeting of the committee. It is clear we should not have had two sessions this morning.

I do not think the clerk is always given the guidance she needs as she arranges these meetings. I do not think it is fair to her.

The clerk has reminded me that the committee agreed to what we did this morning.

I take the Deputy's point. I suggest we put the matter on the agenda for the next meeting of the committee. We can deal with it in private session. Perhaps we could be a little more careful in our scheduling of sessions. It is clear that both sessions could have taken all day to complete.

It has been a waste of many people's time. I will speak about the main issues.

I am not offended, by the way.

I was not commenting on the Vice Chairman.

I will send for the Chairman if the Deputy wishes.

The Vice Chairman will have a job finding him.

I will begin by commenting on the slide that referred to the need to determine the extent of the challenge. I think it was Mr. O'Connor who dealt with this matter. I would like to concentrate on the lower income sector. How many of the houses that need work have had this work done? Perhaps Mr. Nugent might confirm that energy efficiency measures have yet to be taken on the windows and doors of some local authority stock.

The last time we discussed this issue some dissatisfaction was expressed during and after the meeting. I did not realise that the group had not been asked to undertake an affordability study until quite recently — I thought that had been happening for the last year and a half. I am pleased to hear the group's future initiatives include the updating of the information available on its website. What is the actual function of the group? What plan is it working to? That is one of my main questions. What level of communication takes place outside the group's meetings? At a meeting with representatives of Offaly County Council last week, for example, I learned that the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government no longer allowed the council to provide ranges or stoves when new housing stock was being built or existing stock updated. I am aware of one area where seven houses, all of which are some eight years old, will have to have their ranges taken out before the end of the year to ensure compliance with the new regulations so that the grant can be drawn down from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. The problem is that the local authority may find it difficult to allocate these properties because persons in receipt of the weekly fuel allowance will not be in a position to take the up-front cost of filling the oil tank to heat them. No supplier is willing to deliver €10 worth of oil per week. What discussion took place between the Department of Social and Family Affairs and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government before this decision was taken? Does the interdepartmental group have a role in making such decisions? The houses in question will be more energy efficient but that will only be of benefit if the persons living in them can afford to fill the oil tank. I raised this issue the last day and have teased it out with the Minister in the interim. I understand there has been only a relatively small number of formal requests to the Department regarding the possibility of receiving a fuel allowance twice a year rather than on a weekly basis. However, I expect this to become a prominent issue in the future and I would like to see progress in that regard.

The remit of this committee focuses on issues affecting individuals and families on low incomes. I understand it is a requirement that only persons or households undertaking work to the value of €500 or more are eligible to apply for relief. I submitted a query on this matter to the Department last week and received a reply in writing.

Mr. St. John O’Connor

That criterion relates to the home energy saving scheme as opposed to the warmer homes scheme. The former is targeted at the "can pay" sector and the latter at the lower income sector.

One wonders about the definition of "can pay". There are people willing to engage in the scheme but who are ineligible because the work undertaken must be at a cost of €500 or more. Where does the income threshold kick in in terms of "can pay" and how was that decision made?

In regard to supplier codes of practice, I take it from what Ms Hannon said that what is in place are guidelines rather than mandatory requirements.

Ms Fiona Hannon

It is mandatory that suppliers produce a code of practice based on the guidelines provided.

Deputy Byrne and I are currently compiling a report on indebtedness among persons on low incomes. As part of my research I have spoken to people whose accounts have been allowed to go significantly into arrears before they are contacted by the relevant utility provider. It is mostly ESB rather than Bord Gáis customers in my constituency although the Big Switch campaign may have made some inroads. I am aware of one person who was allowed get into arrears of €1,000 before contact was made by the supplier to indicate that supply would be cut off if payment was not made without delay. I cannot understand how arrears are allowed to accumulate to that level before action is taken. For a person on a low income, a debt of €1,000 may well be impossible to discharge in one go. Why is action not taken before the situation deteriorates to that degree? Is telephone contact made with customers to explain the implications of allowing their account to continue to go into arrears or are customers simply presented after a certain point with a letter demanding payment, in which case they must seek help from MABS? It was indicated that special arrangements have been made in 78,000 cases. For the purposes of our report, will the delegates from ESB and Bord Gáis provide more detailed information in this regard? It is important to know the full extent of the problem before we can devise solutions.

I thank the delegates for their contributions. At the last meeting they attended members were concerned that none of us had seen the Keep Well and Warm booklet. The delegates tell us now that some 130,000 copies have been circulated. In what areas has that been done and are there plans to make the document more widely available?

I am surprised that we are only now hearing talk of implementing a new communications strategy. When is it expected that this new strategy will be ready to launch? Has the undertaking to publish an affordable energy strategy for consultation in 2009 been met? What progress has been made in implementing measures contained within the national energy efficiency action plan? What is the latest information on the development of proposals on energy demand reduction targets? Will the delegates indicate from where the figures set out in the table showing domestic efficiency deficits were drawn? In ballpark figures, what is the number of homes nationally where there is an issue in regard to energy efficiency? What is the timeframe within which we are working in terms of meeting existing needs in respect of energy efficiency measures?

In regard to domestic efficiency measures, there seems to be a focus on the warmer homes scheme. There is a significant difference between the warmer homes scheme and the home energy saving scheme in terms of the measures provided. Is it intended to move towards a situation where the different measures covered in the home energy saving scheme will be available to people on low incomes? As far as I am aware, the measures available under the warmer homes scheme are quite limited. Is the target of delivering 15,000 homes in 2009 likely to be met? Where are the homes that are participating in the domestic efficiency measures and the retrofitting demonstration programme located? I have heard reference to them but have not come across them. On what basis were these homes selected and how many such are involved in the demonstration project?

Ms Hannon gave us various figures showing how prices have increased and decreased in recent years. Can she indicate the net change in the price of electricity in the past two years? While there was reference to various reasons for the increases in electricity prices, there was no reference to decisions made by the CER in respect of competition issues and the impact of its rulings on the price of electricity. Will Ms Hannon comment on that?

There are mixed opinions on Sustainable Energy Ireland's website. For those who know their way around the Internet, it works very efficiently and there is a quick turnaround in terms of decisions on grant applications and so on. However, for many people, especially older people and those who are not used to the Internet, the site can be quite confusing. Different schemes are referred to and people coming to it cold will not necessarily know what is involved in all or any of them. Has SEI conducted any market research on the difficulties experienced by inexperienced Internet users in using the website? I have spoken to elderly people who have had difficulty navigating it. Are there any plans to make the site more user friendly?

Ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh an ngrúpa. Bhí an méid a bhí le rá acu an-suimiúil ar fad agus tá brón orm go mb'fhéidir nach raibh dóthain ama acu. Ba chóir dúinn é a bhriseadh suas beagáinín agus dhá nó trí cruinniú a bheith againn i ndiaidh a cheíle. Tá cúpla ceist agam. My questions are general but also for clarification. The witnesses talked about the use of subjective information to determine the extent of the challenge and they quickly took us through an expenditure method based on a rather arbitrary figure of 10%. They then went on to subjective measures, by which I understand them to mean that people would assess their own affordability position in regard to fuel and energy in the home. Does Mr. O'Connor regard that as the most reliable measure? I would have thought subjectivity was useful in this area in that people are likely to be in the best position to say whether they have a problem.

I am not sure if the witnesses have a collective view on the Spirit of Ireland project which was the subject of much comment some months ago. It addresses our excessive reliance on fossil fuels and seeks more sustainable ways of producing energy with positive implications for climate change and our balance of payments, given the belief of its proponents that Ireland would become a net exporter of energy, so delivering a magic bullet to solve our economic crisis. Have the witnesses discussed the project? Do they believe it should inform Government thinking? Would it contribute to more affordable energy, quite apart from the positive environmental consequences?

I discussed the issue of turf during the interval and I recently read an article in Irish Rural Link on the implications for fuel poverty of new rules on the cutting of turf, with some homes in rural areas being directly hit. I will declare an interest in that I own a few acres of land and have footed turf frequently, though I do not believe the small amount involved has yet been subject to a Big Brother-style regulation. Has that issue come on to the witnesses’ radar?

It is very difficult in a short time to take in all the different figures and pieces of information we have been given. I would appreciate it if something could be done with regard to turf farming because some of the regulations are just crazy. We need a more common-sense approach rather than forcing rural people on low incomes to get people in to cut the turf on their own bogs. I urge the Departments to look at the issue seriously.

Given the price of electricity, one becomes very upset at the delays in putting in place the regulations for wind farms. I was involved with one of the major wind farms in County Cavan and it took years to put in place. The people who were interested in the project had to go to Scotland while they waited for the regulations in this country.

To utilise alternative energies we must be more proactive and progressive and must ensure those who are willing to commit moneys to such projects are helped in every way. I was also involved in a biomass plant which never got off the ground because of objections. It turned into an incinerator but the poultry farmers who needed it are now exporting raw material on lorries to Scotland that could be used to produce cheap fuel.

We are also exporting all our meat and bone meal to Germany. A colleague of mine at council level was in Germany recently and saw a load of Irish meat and bone meal driving into the power station. If we are serious about minimising our costs we must at least utilise our own fuel.

I welcome the extra €12.5 million for social housing and council grants. I hope the councils that mishandled the situation and got into big problems do not get that grant. Monaghan County Council kept the door open for hardship cases by issuing letters saying that while the companies might not get paid immediately, they should deal fairly with urgent cases of sickness and need.

People do not know where to go for details of what grants are available. They hear a neighbour has had insulation work carried out but do not have the same knowledge of how to get the information. It is important that it is not just those who are better off or know how to do these things that benefit but also those who do not have the necessary connections.

I welcome the involvement of Bord Gáis in electricity. I have nothing against the ESB but I welcome anything that can help to bring down the price. It is important we make our country as competitive as possible because the only way we will get ourselves out of this economic situation is to allow jobs to be created. A factory in France gets power at half the price paid by a company on the Cavan-Meath border using ESB. We do not have to go to the Far East to see we are not competitive. It is important we help those at the lower end but it will help everyone if competition is allowed.

Ms Murphy said people were advising others in the community on consumption issues. What groups do they target? Do they target specific individuals, women's groups or active retirement groups? I have a lot of contact with active retirement groups in my area but I have not heard of this initiative.

I would say to Ms Murphy and Ms Kennedy that we all understand the difficulties people face. I mention the response of the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, in particular in communities where people might not have much money and might concentrate on buying food and not fuel. Do they have figures on how much the Society of St. Vincent de Paul pays the ESB and Bord Gáis in regard to bills which people have accumulated?

I refer to the €12.5 million being given to local authorities for the adaptation grant. Does Mr. Nugent have any idea how it will be distributed by local authorities? What percentages will be given? Will grants be given to council tenants, private homes or other areas?

I would like to ask Ms McEvoy if the Institute of Public Health has any figures on the number of elderly people, in particular, who contact public health nurses in local offices about proper heating in their homes? I have come across a number of people who have been assisted by the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and the local authorities because public health nurses made an issue of the fact they did not have adequate heating. Is the lack of heating and proper insulation in homes a huge public health issue, particularly for the elderly?

I compliment the delegations on their presentations. I wish to follow up on what Deputy Enright said about Offaly County Council in that no more ranges or stoves will be provided in local authority accommodation in order to comply with new regulations. Will someone comment on that?

I compliment the ESB and Bord Gáis on their work and on displaying a human side in not cutting people off, especially the elderly and those on low incomes.

I apologise to Senator Nicky McFadden; I did not notice her.

That is okay. I know my place.

I thank the delegates. I wish to direct my comments to Mr. Nugent. I warmly welcome the extra €12.5 million. How can one avail of this? Which county will be prioritised? Perhaps he could e-mail me directly about counties Westmeath and Longford, especially in regard to the disabled person's grant and the central heating programme. The aspiration is that it will be rolled out in all local authority housing. I would like to know when it will be rolled out in counties Longford and Westmeath.

Houses owned by private landlords must reach very high standards in order to participate in the rental accommodation scheme. Some houses are disqualified and my local authority is badly in need of housing. Will there be incentives or ways to help landlords' houses reach the proper specifications?

I wish to ask Ms Murphy about the HALO scheme in which 25,000 people have participated. Where has that happened? If Mr. Nugent or Ms Murphy have any more pilot schemes to roll out, they might roll them out in counties Longford and Westmeath. They always seem to be rolled out on the eastern side of the country, and I mean no offence to the Vice Chairman.

As Senator Mullen said, if there is a ban on cutting turf, some people will be placed in a poverty trap as a result. My main worry is estimated ESB bills. I have come across major problems where people's bills are estimated. It is not the true figure but they are billed accordingly and that is how they get into arrears. Some people, through no fault of their own, cannot read their meters. The ESB probably knows that as well as I do. The ESB can become quite faceless to those people. I appreciate what it is doing and the fact that 78,000 people have come to it through the Money Advice and Budgeting Service and so on and that it has made arrangements for those people. I commend it in that regard.

However, I have received numerous representations about estimated bills. The true figure is not billed. Will Ms Murphy comment on estimated bills? Much of the problem is because the reader cannot gain access. Does the ESB read meters only twice per year?

Ms Louise Murphy

Four times per year.

Deputy Shortall spoke about the Keep Well and Warm booklet. That has not been delivered in counties Westmeath or Longford.

It would be normal for me to say a few words and mention Dublin, in particular Tallaght, but as we are under pressure, I will not do so. I thank my colleagues for their courtesy.

I will leave Mr. O'Connor in charge of what happens next. Ms McEvoy was mentioned but she has not had the opportunity to speak. I do not know whether Ms Kelleher wishes to speak. Mr. O'Connor might facilitate that.

Mr. St. John O’Connor

Yes.

The absence of Deputy Shortall prompts me to say — perhaps my colleagues will agree with this — that given the number of questions and the time constraints, it would be useful if the different organisations sent written replies to the secretariat which will be distributed to the committee. However, Mr. O'Connor is in charge——

Mr. St. John O’Connor

Will I answer those questions now or will I submit replies?

Very briefly. Perhaps we will give those who were mentioned but who did not have the opportunity to speak an opportunity to do so.

Mr. St. John O’Connor

I counted approximately 35 questions. Approximately nine of them came from Deputy Shortall. I will probably gloss over those slightly and will go through the rest of them.

I ask that written responses are sent to the secretariat for distribution to the committee.

Mr. St. John O’Connor

That is fine. I will act as chair for the group and will direct questions.

For God's sake, mention Longford-Westmeath.

Mr. St. John O’Connor

I will try my very best.

I refer to Deputy Enright's question on whether we need to have everybody here. It is important from our perspective that everybody comes to the committee to demonstrate the interrelated nature and complexity of the issues. We are being taken away from other work but it is valuable to explain the totality of the issues facing us and which we are addressing collectively and individually.

Deputy Enright asked about the number of houses that need to be retrofitted. I draw her attention to the slide on domestic efficiency deficits. Perhaps Ms Kelleher will speak about it as well. These are the latest statistics Sustainable Energy Ireland has produced to indicate the number of homes lacking in thermal efficiencies and retrofit measures.

Deputy Shortall asked about the timeline to which we are working. I am wary about giving timelines because they are dependent on budget. That gives one the scale of the number of measures——

Is it possible to break that slide down into people who can and cannot pay for it?

Ms Majella Kelleher

This is based on the national survey of housing quality which was carried out by the ESRI. The figures are from 2002 and are based on the lowest income quartile. Therefore, they are the numbers in terms of addressing the size of the problem. These are further defined in terms of an estimate of how many are in the public sector which are taken care of by the local authorities and how many in the private sector which involve targets like the warmer homes scheme targets. I can send the committee further information on the derivation of those figures.

That information can be sent to our secretary.

Mr. St. John O’Connor

We will try to co-ordinate the information. Much of it is relevant to the question asked by Deputy Shortall.

The third question asked by Deputy Enright related to the functional group and what it is. The message I tried to put across today was that this group provides the strategic direction for affordable energy policy. The fact we are now being asked by the Minister to develop the affordable energy strategy gives a focal point to the discussions, deliberations and presentations we have received and undertaken this year. That of itself is a worthwhile activity. As I have tried to communicate, a number of actions are undertaken on an individual basis, but these percolate up to decisions being taken on a collective basis. I suggest that is the function of the group and what it will continue to do in 2010.

Deputy Enright also asked, as did a number of other committee members, about ranges and stoves. I suggest Mr. Nugent might answer those questions collectively.

Mr. Philip Nugent

I would if I could. That is an issue on which I will have to return to the Deputy. I am not aware of any specific issue. If the Deputy wishes, I will look specifically into the Offaly case.

I believe the change has been notified to local authorities.

Mr. Philip Nugent

I undertake to look into it and come back with a response in the written submission we will make.

Dr. Orlaigh Quinn

The issue came up in the context of oil fills. We are familiar with the problem. There is a difficulty if people are paid and then come off benefit. How can their tank be filled in the future? The Minister has committed to looking at this issue next year. It is also worth mentioning that many oil companies run budget plans so they can use their fuel allowance to pay on a budgetary basis. The Minister has committed to looking at this way of trying to give a choice to people and how best to do so. That will be done in 2010.

Mr. St. John O’Connor

The next question related to the €500 limit. Perhaps Ms Kelleher will answer that question.

Ms Majella Kelleher

I will explain this in the context of the two schemes. The warmer homes scheme is targeted at the low income housing group where people must be in receipt of a fuel allowance to be eligible for the scheme. The home energy saving scheme is the wider national scheme launched last year which has a number of energy efficiency measures. One of the aspects of this scheme is the limit of €500. There are two reasons for this. One of these is the energy efficiency perspective. We are trying to encourage people to do what really needs to be done and at a minimum to put in attic and wall insulation. The grant for attic insulation is €250 and the grant for wall insulation is €400. We find that many people are putting these two measures in place and that the best value for money is got for putting in both. The second reason for the €500 limit is an administrative reason. In terms of cost benefit, the cost of administering a grant of €250 did not make sense. Therefore, from the perspective of both energy efficiency and value for money, a €500 limit was set.

Mr. St. John O’Connor

I will address the point Deputy Shortall raised relating to the measures included in the home energy saving scheme and whether they transfer across to the warmer homes scheme. The two low cost measures mentioned, attic and wall insulation, are already part of the warmer homes scheme. These two measures have the biggest energy efficiency savings in comparison with the other measures which are much more expensive. That is the reason they are in the warmer homes scheme. However, we are considering stronger measures in a pilot scheme for approximately 180 houses this year, such as full central heating systems. We will use this programme to investigate the issues in that regard, the full costs of doing this and the implications for energy savings. This may then inform future policy direction for the warmer homes scheme, but we are doing it this year to have the model in place if and when funds become available. It is obviously a far more expensive scheme to deliver. If we are to deliver such a scheme we will obviously deliver on far fewer houses than we do with the cheaper measures mentioned which are more efficient in terms of energy savings.

The next question related to supplier codes of conduct. I will ask Ms Hannon to reply to that.

Ms Fiona Hannon

All suppliers are required to put in place codes of practice on marketing, billing and payments, disconnections and complaints handling. Suppliers to domestic customers are also required to have a code of practice on vulnerable customers. Codes of practice are mandatory for all suppliers. We have recently published a leaflet for customers containing high level information on each of the codes and we will distribute that leaflet over the next while.

A question was asked about the build-up of arrears, but it related more to utilities. Perhaps Ms Kennedy would like to come in on that.

Ms Tracy Kennedy

In 2006 we looked at the issue of arrears in tandem with MABS and the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, because they provided us with feedback suggesting they were hearing from people when it was far too late and when the share of the pot of money to be allocated for utilities and getting people back on supply had become too big. We looked at the issue specifically with the Society of St. Vincent de Paul in 2006 and put in place a new set of practices that focused on ensuring that when customers were in a situation whereby they needed to be reconnected to supply, the share of the pot the society needed to give to us to ensure that happened was very low. We also ensured an extended payment period was put in place.

We also looked at the area of early contacts. As Deputy Enright mentioned, it is very important to get to the customer early when a problem starts to emerge. As committee members appreciate, we cannot see beyond the bill. Therefore, we need the customers to come to us to say they need support. We have put in place a series of additional initiatives, such as an increased number of outbound calls and letters, and have used different technologies, such as texting, to ensure customers are made aware of the fact they are running into difficulty and that we are there to talk to them and provide the right level of support for them.

Ms Louise Murphy

We are in a similar situation and over the years we have been working with the agencies. We have a process in place to identify where there are arrears and which accounts should be worked on with the agencies and which accounts we should deal with ourselves. There is follow-up through the debt process from the early stages of debt through letters and phone calls and on to customer contact. Where customers identify a genuine problem, we work with them.

How high does the ESB let a bill get before it initiates contact apart from sending the bill?

Ms Louise Murphy

When the arrears first occur. Once a bill is not paid, we make contact when the next bill issues. That contact is by letter. This will be followed by a follow-up letter and then phone calls. Therefore, there would be several contacts before we get to a stage where there would be €1,000 on a bill. We find sometimes that consumers do not respond to our contacts. Sometimes they are managing a number of bills or debts and the utility bill is not at the top of the list. That can be a feature. Our front-line people are geared and trained to try to identify the genuine hardship cases. The follow-up phone calls we make try to do that and get the debt in order. However, some people do not respond to those contacts. It is only when the process gets to the last stage that these people start to raise it as an issue.

Will Ms Murphy send the committee some more information on that process to be included in our report which will be done next week?

Ms Louise Murphy

I will do that.

Does the ESB have a problem with people always sending in estimated readings?

Ms Louise Murphy

We have a small number of accounts where there are estimated readings for a period greater than a year. The bulk of these are empty premises, but we have a programme of activity where we follow up by letter to try to get access to those homes so we can prevent the problem of a big bill arriving, whether it is an empty premises such as one that has not been rented out over a period or a situation where a person cannot read the meter. We try to communicate on bills where there have been more than three estimates by putting a message in big red print on the envelope asking the customer to please contact us. We are trying to issue more information and messages inviting customers to contact us if they receive more than two estimated bills. The industry standard is four reads a year, but where we cannot get access — some premises cannot be accessed over the 12 months of the year — that is not the case. However, four reads a year is our target for such premises.

That is specifically why I asked, because there are people who cannot read who are inadequate personalities, and I hate using that term. I do not mean to be critical of the ESB, but the same probably goes for other companies as regards a person who can help people on the ground. Does the ESB have a liaison person such as that since it has become such a faceless organisation? I am sorry to say that, because I know it is doing its best within limited resources. However, that in effect is the representation I have received from an organisation in Athlone which has serious problems with estimated bills and people not being able to go to the ESB.

Ms Louise Murphy

We encourage customers to contact us and we disseminate information on how to read a meter. We are aware that some people, such as the elderly, are unable to do that and we encourage them to get a family member or a neighbour to read the meter for them. Perhaps it might be useful for Senator McFadden to give me the name of that organisation and——

Ms Louise Murphy

——-we shall organise to have a contact in place, so that where issues such as that arise, we can sort them out quickly.

Mr. St. John O’Connor

I wanted to pick up on a couple of points made by Deputy Shortall, one of which my colleague, Ms Kelleher has just answered on the distribution of the Keep Well and Warm booklet. I might talk about the NEAP and affordable energy strategy afterwards.

Ms Majella Kelleher

On the Keep Well and Warm booklet, the channels being currently used for that and for the 130,000 are in the first instance the stakeholders who collaborated with us in putting it together. These include MABS, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, the HSE, BG, ESB, An Post and the Departments of Social and Family Affairs and Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. That is the first channel in terms of distribution.

The second one is the community-based organisations that deliver warmer homes. In a sense these are the second port of call in terms of using the booklet and getting it out to the community, and again we work very actively on the ground with the various groups. Finally, the booklet is on our website.

I will now deal with a later question from Deputy Shortall on confusion surrounding the schemes. We work hard to ensure that anybody on the front line dealing with calls is able to say what the various schemes are. If an elderly person rings or somebody in receipt of a fuel allowance makes contact, we take care that he or she goes through that channel. This is something we are looking at in the context of the wider communications strategy. We do not see a generalised target, because it is a matter of focusing on the right group. To a large extent we use intermediaries for that so that we can leverage existing networks, focusing in particular on the health area — to get the message into GPs' surgeries, for example, and doing that through the HSE. Those are the current channels. I am just looking at where the CBOs are because I cannot believe that members of the committee still have not seen them on the ground. At any rate, we are looking at that in terms of the strategy and working with the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources and the group here. This is under discussion in terms of trying to bring about improvements and getting it rolled out.

Mr. St. John O’Connor

On affordable energy, the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, has asked the group to publish a strategy for consultation by the end of the year. At this stage we are just finalising the terms of reference and there has been some discussion among the group on the draft. The intention is that it will go to the Minister within the next week and there will be visibility on that strategy before the end of the year.

Deputy Shortall raised the energy demand reduction target programme, which I should like to mention. This is a fairly innovative programme for Ireland. It potentially will have an impact on both the can-pay and cannot-pay sectors in delivering energy efficiency measures, so it is important if the proposals come through that they be brought before Government in the next month or so. That may reconceptualise how we consider energy efficiency measures to both the affordable and cannot-pay sectors.

On Senator Mullen's points in relation to the subjective measures versus the expenditure method and which is preferable or more reliable, I was afraid somebody was going to ask me that. I was at pains to point out that neither is better or worse, as such, more correct or incorrect. We see that both have merit, but each in an Irish context probably needs further refinement.

In the case of the affordable energy strategy, we are very conscious of the need to have a research stream that looks at indicators in relation to energy poverty. I hope to be able to come back to the committee with a definitive position for Ireland in terms of reporting methodologies and also to be able to indicate the extent of the issue and how it is being measured. Again, we must be cognisant of the manner in which data are being collected and we have to rely upon that. Therefore, to some degree we are somewhat constrained by what has currently been collected.

The Senator's next question was about the Spirit of Ireland project and whether we had a view on that. I confess to not being directly connected with it, but I have heard of and read about the project. It is something we are cognisant of. I understand the convenors of the Spirit of Ireland proposal are to revert to the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources with further details, which I understand have not been forthcoming, as yet. However, I am not working in that area, so unfortunately I cannot give the definitive position. However, if the Senator is looking for one, I might come back on it, as part of that written submission on the Spirit of Ireland proposal.

I might hand over to my colleague, Mr. Nugent, of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, to answer the question about turf, which was Senator Mullen's last question and Deputy Crawford's first.

Mr. Philip Nugent

I will go back, if I may, to Deputy Shortall's last question, which was about retrofitting projects.

I am sensitive to the fact that Deputy Shortall is getting a good deal of mention in her absence. I trust the officials will ensure she gets the information they refer to.

Mr. Philip Nugent

Of course. Deputy Enright also asked about the location of the two retrofitting or demonstration projects and the number of units. One is Glover Court in Dublin city with 38 units and one is Georgian Buildings in Limerick city with 68 units. Both projects will go to tender early in 2010.

Turf is not in my area of responsibility but the members will be aware that the Minister has established an interdepartmental group to examine issues around turf cutting on raised bogs designated as special areas of conservation — because of the available scientific evidence that continued cutting on those bogs is not compatible with their conservation.

Such arguments are proffered by particular organisations but not by individuals cutting turf.

Mr. Philip Nugent

Perhaps I can finish. Commercial cutting has ceased and the interdepartmental group has met with turf cutting interests including families who are saving turf on a non-commercial basis for their own requirements. Such families have raised concerns as regards fuel poverty. The recommendations of the interdepartmental body, which are expected before the end of the month, will take account of the reservations raised by such groups.

Dr. Orlaigh Quinn

People who have their own fuel supply, whether turf or whatever, are also entitled to a fuel allowance from the Department, so there is no change there.

Mr. St. John O’Connor

As regards the warmer home scheme, there has been communication between our Department and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government in relation to opportunities for energy efficiency retrofit measures for individuals who might be affected. Those issues will be taken into account.

The officials have gone beyond their own deadline, so the committee is in their hands.

Mr. St. John O’Connor

If the Chairman does not mind we shall continue since we are on question No. 22 of 35. Otherwise we shall provide written replies if the committee prefers.

Is it agreed to continue? Agreed.

Mr. St. John O’Connor

The next question is from Deputy Crawford as regards the price of electricity — wind farm on biomass delays and meat and bonemeal concerns. Perhaps Mr. Nugent might like to deal with this, and possibly Ms Hannon.

Mr. Philip Nugent

On the question on wind farms and grid connections, there is provision in the planning Bill, which is before the Oireachtas at the moment, to extend the generation of planning permissions for wind farms where securing grid connection has been a difficulty. This is something we are aware of and working on.

Ms Fiona Hannon

It is not my area of expertise, but I shall get a correct response to his question and forward it to the Deputy.

Mr. St. John O’Connor

The next question from Deputy Crawford was in relation to the website information and access to knowledge. This is a point well made by the Deputy and one we are very cognisant of. We intend to improve the quality of information being provided, not just on SEI's website — and I do not want to speak for SEI — but also on the Keep Well and Warm website and the means of distributing and disseminating that information. It is certainly on our radar and I hope to see some tangible improvements on that, particularly around the grants that are available. My staff have done some work on it recently and we are in the process of putting it up on our own website. We will also communicate with SEI to put it on the Keep Well and Warm website, which will be a welcome development.

Deputy Crawford's final point concerned competition.

It was more of a statement than a question, so Mr. O'Connor need not reply directly.

Mr. St. John O’Connor

Deputy Catherine Byrne asked with regard to the ESB scheme and who was being targeted by it. Ms Murphy might deal with that point.

Ms Louise Murphy

The scheme with Energy Action involves training community representatives to provide energy efficiency advice to low income families in the context of the warm homes scheme. When homes are upgraded through that scheme, the representatives come out after the fact to provide advice and information to the householders, which is how the people come forward. It is a new scheme developed by Energy Action which we have had the privilege of sponsoring and supporting because we believe it is a good idea.

They are the only people for whom work is being done.

Ms Louise Murphy

At present, the way homes are presenting themselves is through the warm homes scheme but that may extend as time progresses.

Mr. St. John O’Connor

Ms Murphy might also deal with the next question which concerned how much the Society of St. Vincent de Paul pays on gas and electricity bills. Does she have figures on that?

Ms Louise Murphy

No, I do not have that information but I can certainly find the figures and send them to the committee.

Ms Tracy Kennedy

When the figures in that regard came into us for 2006 and 2007, how much of the society's allocations were needed to put towards utility bills was recognised as an issue. We examined it at that stage and I know the society is much more comfortable with the arrangements currently in place.

With regard to the initiative we will launch next year in terms of providing real energy efficiency solutions to the home, it will be launched on a nationwide basis and Senator McFadden will be delighted to know we will be in Longford-Westmeath as well as Tallaght.

We should twin.

Mr. St. John O’Connor

The next question is on the distribution of the €12.5 million. Mr. Nugent might deal with this question.

Mr. Philip Nugent

It would be easiest for me to transmit that information to the committee electronically as 28 authorities are receiving top-up allocations. Deputy Catherine Byrne asked what the grants are for. These are the grant schemes that replaced the DPG and the ERG schemes, so there are now three grants: the housing aid for older people, which is for works such as replacing windows, central heating works and so on; the housing adaptation grant for people with a disability, which is for more structural works, for example, a downstairs bathroom or a bedroom for somebody who has been incapacitated; and the mobility aids grant, which is for minor works to facilitate, for example, access for an older person who is confined to a wheelchair through installation of a ramp or similar.

Mr. St. John O’Connor

Ms McAvoy will deal with the question regarding figures for public health nurses.

Ms Helen McAvoy

The short answer is "No". There is no formal reporting system for public health nurses, occupational therapists or formal or informal carers who had concerns about heating in older people's homes. I do not know whether there is a more informal system within the HSE but, to the best of my knowledge, there is no formal reporting system.

To pick up on the point regarding the health and social impacts of fuel poverty, as well as considering the overall prevalence, it is widely acknowledged that older people living in houses that they cannot afford to heat are living in cold and damp conditions or are perhaps restricted to living in one room in the house. This is a factor in the number of hospital admissions among older people with cardiovascular disease, stroke and respiratory disease, and also in regard to delayed discharge. From the health perspective, there is concern about the number of deaths at the disability end and the burden on the health service as a secondary concern.

The institute would see one of the main values of this interdepartmental group being that it will allow us to integrate the best information evidence we can get on health, including numbers of deaths, hospital admissions and so on, into the strategy. Therefore, it will include not just a focus on the overall prevalence of fuel poverty but will allow us to consider the health and social impacts within the structure of the strategy and to factor in those impacts against implementation. I hope one of the benefits of the interdepartmental group will be to allow us to input into that in the longer term. The institute, knowing that the strategy is coming down the line, is gearing up to undertake further research with DIT, University of Ulster and other groups to get the very best information to inform how we will consider the health and social impacts of fuel poverty, as well as the very important measures to reduce its overall prevalence.

Mr. St. John O’Connor

We undertook to answer Deputy Joe Carey's question on ranges and stoves off-line. The first question from Senator McFadden related to how one can access the €12.5 million, and we will also answer that question off-line. The next question concerned the rental accommodation scheme, RAS, and ways to develop incentives in regard to helping landlords to improve the thermal efficiency and BER rating of their property. Mr. Nugent might deal with this question.

Mr. Philip Nugent

I can come back to the committee more comprehensively. As the Senator is aware, one of the actions the Department is taking is to shift the focus within the social housing investment programme away from construction and acquisition towards long-term leasing arrangements to take advantage of the unsold units that are on the market. The indications are that there are quite a few unsold, brand new units in the Longford-Westmeath area.

We are likely to be dealing with older houses so I was gearing the question towards those rather than newer houses.

Mr. Philip Nugent

People transferring from rent supplement to the rental accommodation scheme do not always stay in the accommodation they are in.

I have come across older houses where the landlord is trying to get into the scheme but this has been a kind of disincentive. There is no incentive. That is all I wanted to know from Mr. Nugent.

Mr. St. John O’Connor

I might also come in on that issue. One of the actions under the national energy efficiency action plan was that we would look at the feasibility of improving the standards of accommodation through RAS, which is very much around the energy poverty issue. The more of their income people must spend on energy, the more likely they are to be in poverty. Therefore, the more we can drive people into efficient buildings, the better. This is an issue we are currently examining and the three Departments involved are currently in discussions in that regard.

The next question related to the HALO scheme. Ms Murphy might discuss how it has been disseminated.

Ms Louise Murphy

It has been rolled out in several areas, such as Dublin, Cork and the midlands. I cannot confirm whether it has been in Westmeath but I will check that and prepare a briefing for the Senator on where it is currently and where it is planned to roll it out further.

Mr. St. John O’Connor

The next question concerns turf——

Who are the representatives on the interdepartmental committee on turf?

Mr. Philip Nugent

The Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is the lead Department but, in advance of our fuller submission, I will provide the information directly to the Senator as soon as possible.

Mr. St. John O’Connor

The second last question concerning estimated ESB bills has been answered. The final question concerns the well-worn booklet not delivered in Longford-Westmeath. Perhaps Ms Kelleher would deal with that.

Ms Majella Kelleher

I have looked at the list of community-based organisations and there is one in Longford. I can give the Senator as much information as she wants in terms of distribution.

Ms Majella Kelleher

In looking at the channels we use——

What channels are used?

Ms Majella Kelleher

A total of 22 community-based organisations deliver the warmer homes scheme. There is one in Longford. County Westmeath is covered by CHIP which is based in Clondalkin. We also operate through all of the stakeholders involved in developing the scheme, namely, MABS, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, the ESB, BGE and the HSE in an attempt to leverage the health networks. In a sense, we distribute it for them to distribute as appropriate. Then there are the community-based organisations, while people can also contact us directly on our helplines.

Ms Kelleher should look after Tallaght. I thank Mr. O'Connor and his colleagues. This has been a very good meeting. I am pleased that Mr. O'Connor clarified why all the delegates were present. I am sorry that point was made. He made a fair and reasonable point. I am pleased we have had this meeting and thank each and every one of the delegates. There is a lot of interest in what has been said. I also thank my colleagues, some of whom have had to attend to other duties.

Where are the Government members?

They will hear from me too. I am happy to do the work of eight men or women if I have to. As I said, this has been a good meeting. I appreciate the attention everybody has shown. I have asked the secretariat to correspond with all members on issues raised this morning about scheduling.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.55 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 28 October 2009.
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