JOINT COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL PROTECTION debate -
Wednesday, 8 Dec 2010

Rental Accommodation Scheme: Discussion

Vice Chairman

Members will recall our meeting on 31 March 2010 when we asked two Departments to discuss their proposals on the rates of transfer from the rent supplement scheme to the rental accommodation scheme and how this transfer could be improved. I am pleased to welcome back the officials to update the committee on progress since that last meeting.

From the Department of Social Protection, I welcome Ms Orlaigh Quinn, assistant secretary, and from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, I welcome Mr. Michael Layde, assistant secretary, Ms Rosalind Carroll, assistant principal, and Ms Elizabeth Munro, assistant principal.

The purpose of the meeting is to get an update on the latest position with regard to the transfer of tenants from rent supplement to the rental accommodation scheme or similar scheme. We need to establish the exact plan in regard to leasing and examine its cost effectiveness. I ask the Departments to give an update on the position from the previous meeting to ascertain if some of the obstacles identified, for instance, landlord, residents, NAMA and so on, are still factors and if the rate of transfer has increased. The committee is interested in exploring the implications of new guidelines for differential rent schemes for the creation of further property traps and how new guidelines might act as a disincentive to tenants to switch from rent supplement to the rental accommodation scheme. The format of the meeting will involve brief presentations followed by questions from members.

I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice, or long-standing rule of the Chair, to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. If witnesses are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I invite Ms Orlaigh Quinn to introduce her colleagues and make her presentation. The officials may have heard our conversation as they entered the room, to the effect that there is a great deal of pressure on colleagues in respect of social welfare business for the next two days so we are trying to expedite this meeting.

Ms Orlaigh Quinn

Thank you, Chairman. I am from the Department of Social Protection and I am accompanied by officials from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government including Mr. Michael Layde who may wish to introduce his colleagues.

Mr. Michael Layde

My colleagues are two assistant principals from the Department, Ms Rosalind Carroll and Ms Elizabeth Munro.

Ms Orlaigh Quinn

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for the opportunity to appear before it today. I have submitted a short note to the committee on the matter of the transfer of clients from rent supplement to the rental accommodation scheme. While the rental accommodation scheme is the responsibility of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government the Department of Social Protection has a key role in ensuring its success by offering support to that Department by providing the relevant details of claimants on rent supplement who have been in receipt of same for more than 18 months.

I propose to give a quick overview of the rent supplement scheme. It is administered on behalf of the Department by the Health Service Executive, as part of the supplementary welfare allowance scheme. The purpose of the rent supplement scheme is to provide short-term income support to eligible people in private rented accommodation, whose means are insufficient to meet their accommodation costs and who do not have accommodation available to them from any other source.

The rent supplement scheme has experienced a dramatic increase in the numbers of people benefiting from the scheme over the past two years. There are currently almost 97,000 claimants benefiting from the scheme - an increase of 62% since the end of 2007. The main purpose of the scheme is to address eligible people's short-term needs for accommodation. However, half of the recipients on rent supplement have been in payment for more than one year, with almost 44,500 currently in payment for more than 18 months.

In response to the situation of long-term needs, in 2004 the Government introduced the rental accommodation scheme, RAS. This gave local authorities specific responsibility for meeting the longer-term housing needs of people in receipt of rent supplement for 18 months or more, on a phased implementation basis. Latest figures indicate that to date, local authorities have transferred 16,696 rent supplement cases to RAS units. Housing authorities have also transferred a further 13,312 recipients to other social housing options, a total of 30,008 transfers since 2005.

The Department works closely with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and is represented on a number of RAS implementation groups. The Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is provided with quarterly updates of persons on long-term rent supplement for use by local authorities in targeting tenants for transfer to RAS.

Significant changes to the means test for rent supplement were implemented in 2007 to allow people to return to work and retain the rent supplement entitlement, as rent supplement was a disincentive to work, but on the basis that they had been approved for RAS accommodation. Changes were also made in budget 2009 and the supplementary budget in 2009 to better align the minimum weekly contribution. This was to encourage more people to take up RAS offers when presented to them by local authorities. The committee may wish to note that the Department will again look at the minimum weekly contribution in 2011 with a view to aligning it with the conditions for RAS.

It was initially expected, when the new rental assistance arrangements were fully implemented, that some 30,000 individuals would transfer to long-term housing solutions in the local authorities. While the initial rate of transfer was slower than anticipated the target has been reached. However, due to the increased demand for assistance on the rent supplement scheme, it is clear we need to do more work in this area. The Department continues to work closely with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government in ensuring that RAS meets its objectives. The Department is keen to ensure that rent supplement returns to its original role as a short-term income support.

Mr. Michael Layde

I welcome this opportunity to update the committee on progress in recent months since we last appeared before the committee on the rental accommodation scheme. When we were last here, I outlined the background to and rationale for the introduction of the scheme. I also went into some detail on the progress made each year since the introduction of the scheme in 2004 and the funding mechanism that underpins it. I do not propose to go back over those same issues again today, but would prefer to give the committee a sense of the overall progress made to date, in particular since our recent appearance in March. I will outline the measures we are taking to ensure the objectives of the scheme are being fully realised, that transfer rates are being accelerated to the greatest extent possible and that the obstacles that we have previously identified are being overcome.

I know the social leasing initiative is of interest to members and I am happy to give members a brief outline of the role we see RAS and leasing playing together in the delivery of social housing into the future. I understand that value for money issues on leasing were discussed at length at the Committee of Public Accounts just over a month ago.

As my colleague from the Department of Social Protection has stated, when RAS was introduced it was expected that approximately 30,000 households would transfer from short-term income support under rent supplement to long-term social housing support. RAS has now fully met that objective. By the end of October 2010 a total of 30,008 households had been transferred to either RAS or social housing, following assessment by local authorities, including 4,500 in the period from March to October this year. Despite the introduction of RAS, the numbers of households in receipt of rent supplement has increased significantly since 2004, with 97,000 households now receiving support compared to 60,000 in 2004. Almost 44,000 of these households have been in receipt of rent supplement for a period greater than 18 months. This means in effect that the original 18 month cohort has been replaced one and a half times over the period since RAS commenced. This does not alter the fact that the rental accommodation scheme has so far been a major success, but it highlights the need to redouble our efforts to maximise the rate of transfer of eligible households, those whose need has evolved from being one of income support to long-term housing.

This will be essential next year, given the reality that we are likely to fall somewhat short of the 2010 target, which was set at 8,000. The final figure will be closer to 7,000. I outlined to the committee previously some of the delay factors we experienced at that stage, not just on RAS but in terms of the leasing initiative. If the landlords of the 44,000 tenancies supported by rent supplement now eligible for transfer to RAS were willing to move across to that scheme and the accommodation was of sufficient standard the interface between rent supplement and RAS would be straightforward.

Unfortunately, as members know, that is not the case. While landlords are now aware of the scheme and more are prepared to transfer across from rent supplement, there is still a marked reluctance on the part of many landlords to transfer, and one can only speculate as to the reasons. Some were alluded to by the Chairman at the start of the meeting. Although there may be a presumption that all housing markets around the country have significant numbers of good quality and well located new properties, whose owners are willing to engage with local authorities, the reality is different. The outsourcing of suitable accommodation that meets the right standards and fits the sustainable communities agenda remains a challenge.

In a circular issued by the Department to local authority managers in recent days, they have asked specifically to ensure that, in light of their responsibilities in relation to social housing need, their administrative arrangements are properly configured to ensure maximum delivery under RAS and leasing in the coming years. In doing this, local authorities are being supported and guided by the Department and the Housing and Sustainable Communities Agency to streamline processes and help overcome, in so far as possible, some of the factors behind landlord reluctance.

RAS and leasing are becoming ever more crucial mechanisms in the delivery of social housing. Around two thirds of all social housing provided in 2010 would come through a combination of the two. We anticipate that the proportion will increase next year and in the years ahead as reliance on capital programmes involving construction and acquisition decreases further.

To date funding has not been a delaying factor in the rate of transfer from rent supplement to RAS. The final provision for RAS for 2011 is likely to allow us to broadly maintain current levels of funding.

I assure the members of the committee that my Department continues to treat RAS as a priority. RAS along with the leasing initiative will be a central component of the housing programme into the future. Funding and output targets were significantly increased for 2010. The fiscal and economic climate in which we are operating has deteriorated sharply even since then. Nevertheless, continued high transfer rates remain a key priority for the Department which will continue to make every effort to ensure we can maintain current levels of commitment and that the work that has been put into making RAS work smoothly in local authorities can be continued and enhanced.

I hope I have been of assistance to the committee and my colleagues and I are happy to take questions.

Vice Chairman

Thank you. We will take contributions from colleagues.

Deputy Michael Ring

First, I thank Ms Quinn and Mr. Layde for their presentations and I welcome all the delegates to the committee.

There is concern that not enough people are being transferred to long-term housing, even though the target has been met, but the problem is the increasing number of people who are eligible for rent allowance.

With the introduction of legislation obliging landlords to have tax clearance certificates, will we see an improvement in negotiations between the local authorities and landlords, who may be more interested in the rental accommodation scheme? The Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has written to the local authorities, encouraging them to move faster into RAS. I tabled a parliamentary question on housing requesting figures on the number of vacant houses in the control of the local authorities that are not being reallocated. This is a disgrace. I ask the assistant secretary to ensure that a further directive from the Department is sent to local authorities to require them to repair vacant houses as quickly as possible and reallocate them to people who are on rent allowance. My next question is addressed to the Departments of Social Protection and Environment, Heritage and Local Government. Have discussions taken place with NAMA on the vacant houses under its control? Why should the taxpayer pay twice, pay for the rent allowance and fund NAMA? Can the two Departments work a deal with NAMA that ensures that houses fit for use should be allocated for their use, so that the taxpayer should not have to pay twice?

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I welcome the delegations. The problem in this area is lack of policy. It is hard to draw the line between policy and performance within the Departments. At Government level there needs to be a decision to switch the responsibility for rental support from the Department of Social Protection to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, where it should be located. I have a major problem with the constant referral to the rent supplement programme as being a temporary or emergency measure. Half the people in the private rented sector are on rent supplement. One cannot say that is a temporary or emergency measure when we know that half of the 96,000 people have been on rent supplement for more than 18 months. It is not a temporary measure, it is a key part of the housing policy. For that reason the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government needs to take charge of that sector. I do not know the reason for the reluctance in the Department to do that. The targets that were set have been very conservative. It makes sense from everybody's point of view that rent supplement would switch to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and that as many people as possible would move from rent supplement to the rental accommodation scheme, RAS. That would mean they can go out to work and are no longer caught in the poverty trap of having to stay on the rent supplement allowance. If they are on RAS, they are on a differential rent, which is the key. It is an incentive for people to move off welfare and go to work. Everybody wins in those circumstances. If the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government were to take responsibility through the local authorities, it would pay the rents directly to the landlords and thereby rents could be driven down. In many areas, the high level of rent supplement in the private rented market is driving rents up. Everybody is losing out by the current arrangements. It seems to be a "no brainer" that the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and the local authorities would take responsibility for this entire area and switch as many people as quickly as possible to RAS, as this would remove the poverty traps. The Department should pay landlords directly so that the opportunities for widespread tax evasion would be closed off, from the point of view of landlords and tenants, who are either not passing on the rent or who are not returning deposits. There is significant potential for the system to be reformed, savings to be made and poverty traps to be removed if the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government would get its act together and take responsibility for this. Why are the targets abysmally low? Why has the Department not met those low targets this year? It is outrageous that it cannot meet the target of 8,000 that was set for this year. Could Mr. Layde spell out what he meant by the reference to "reluctance on the part of many landlords to transfer"? Has the Department identified why they are reluctant, if that is the case? Has it addressed these issues?

I cannot understand Mr. Layde's statement that the "fiscal and economic climate in which we are operating has deteriorated sharply even since then". Can he explain what on earth that has to do with the Department's poor performance in this area? The deterioration in the fiscal and economic climate makes it all the more urgent for the Department to move people from rent supplement to the rental accommodation scheme. It just does not add up. It appears that serious foot-dragging is taking place. When will we get the reforms that are required? In the meantime - while we are waiting for this to be sorted out - why does the Department of Social Protection not apply the rules of the rental accommodation scheme to those who are on rent supplement on a wider basis? Why does a person have to wait 18 months to go on differential rent? Why are we not removing the poverty trap in terms of employment?

Deputy Catherine Byrne

I do not love the rental accommodation scheme. It has been a disaster for a long time. I will tell Deputy Shortall why landlords will not take on people under the scheme. They are worried about the strict maintenance standards that apply to the properties being rented under the scheme. Many landlords are unwilling to participate in the scheme because they have concerns about the families and other clients that are put into rental accommodation scheme accommodation.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

The local authorities should take responsibility for such anti-social activity.

Deputy Catherine Byrne

I know. That is what I am saying. The unfortunate thing is that many landlords do not want to do so because it means accountability. I will explain why I do not love the rental accommodation scheme. It keeps families in transient circumstances. They stay somewhere for a few years before they are asked to move again. Young families want to be based in communities. Everyone wants to live and settle in a community. Nobody wants to be shoved around from one place to another. In the Crumlin area of my constituency of Dublin South-Central, some 36 houses owned by the city council are waiting to be put back into social housing. That is not happening because the necessary money is not available to facilitate it. The housing manager is constantly being told there is no money to get the 36 houses in question back up and running. I am sure there are many more houses in a similar position across the constituency.

The problem with the rental accommodation scheme and, in particular, the rent allowance scheme is that we are putting money into the provision of short-term housing solutions. We need to invest in long-term housing, rather than housing for periods of up to five years. The current approach is the wrong way to rear families. It does not help to integrate families into communities. I do not know what is stopping the Government from providing the permanent homes that people want. Across this city, many apartment blocks and houses are lying idle. Why is money not being used to refurbish them, if necessary, and ensure they are put on the market or given to people on social housing lists? I was struck by Mr. Layde's comment that "RAS along with the leasing initiative will be a central component of the housing programme into the future". God help everyone living in Ireland if that is all we can offer those who need housing. The rental accommodation scheme should not be the programme used to house people across Ireland, particularly in Dublin.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

I agree with what my colleague, Deputy Catherine Byrne, said about the role of the local authorities and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government in the housing area. We experienced problems over the past ten years when the Department eased itself out of the responsibility it used to have for housing. We were led to believe housing needs would be catered for by the private sector, but we know where that eventually went. Rents increased dramatically. Salaries and wages had to go up accordingly to meet the rental requirements. During the halcyon days of the Celtic tiger, people who were not at the top of this country's salary scale were paying rents of up to €2,000 a month. We know where that went.

There is a problem with the housing stock that is normally held by local authorities. The need to provide for future requirements in that area has been completely forgotten. In the 1980s, when we were supposed to be poor, a local authority of which I was a member issued 1,600 loans in a period of between three and a half years and four years. The authority in question was funded directly by means of Housing Finance Agency loans. The number of local authority loans that were issued over a comparable period during the Celtic tiger era was approximately 50. It is an appalling comparison. During the 1980s, the local authority of which I was a member used to build approximately 400 houses each year. Those houses were allocated to tenants who had an incentive to work. If they did not have a job, they were covered as they were on a differential rent.

The strain that is now in the system, as everyone goes around in circles, was not there in the 1980s. The then Department of Social Welfare did not have to get involved to the same extent as the current Department of Social Protection. I do not suggest the Department is not doing a good job. The fact is that the whole social housing structure has broken down. Speakers referred to the UK. Some of the things we copy from the UK work well, but others do not work at all. The quality of the housing stock has degenerated dramatically. There has been a huge deterioration in the quality of life of people in some housing schemes. I do not refer exclusively to local authority housing schemes. We discussed that aspect of the matter at the last meeting of the joint committee. The Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government needs to take its responsibilities much more seriously and to deal with these situations as they arise.

I refer to an aspect of this morning's presentation that jumped out at me. Have the Departments of Social Protection and the Environment, Heritage and Local Government worked out the housing requirements for the next two or three years? Approximately 40,000 people are in serious mortgage arrears and will lose their houses if something is not done for them. Nothing was done for them in yesterday's budget and it is not likely that anything will be done. They are being ignored even though the IMF referred to this issue three or four months ago. The IMF spoke out because it knew it would end up lending money to this country. It was thinking about its own interests. The people to whom I refer will lose their houses unless something is done about it. It is a sad situation.

The mantra we have heard from various Departments in recent times - that the alleged beneficiaries of the increase are somehow to blame - is no good. They are not to blame. They are the victims of the situation we find ourselves in and this country finds itself in. There is no use in saying we will do it on a short-term basis. That does not work. We need to encourage people to have some kind of permanency. One can imagine what it is like to talk to the mother of a child who has been moved three, four or five times in the past six or seven years. It is an appalling situation. One can imagine what it is like for kids to be moved from one school to another over four or five years. Some people ask why society is not stable, or why we are in danger of cracking up. It is quite simple. There are many reasons for that. It is within the ambit of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to address these issues, but it has opted out from the housing area. I compliment the efforts of the local authorities to respond to the situation that is developing. However, those who think we will go back to where we were - back to the good old halcyon days - in five or six years time, or in ten years time, are wrong. They had better believe we are not going there.

I wish to deal quickly with something else I spotted recently. Like any local authority member I have ever known, I have always encouraged the purchase of local authority houses. In years gone by, local authority houses across vast swathes of this city that were constructed to a high standard were purchased by those who used to be tenants in them. That right has been taken away from tenants in recent years, unfortunately. It was not possible under any circumstances to buy a house with the local authority loans that were made available. It was crazy stuff. The limit in County Kildare was €150,000 or something like that. Where would one have been able to purchase a house for €150,000? It was not possible to do so.

There is another problem which must be dealt with as a matter of urgency. Approximately 25,000 houses are currently held by voluntary, non-profit-making organisations. These dwellings were built and paid for by the State. There was a 100% capital allowance scheme relating to the houses to which I refer, people could obtain 100% loans for them and the sites were free. The only requirement relating to the organisations in question is that they administer these houses and inform tenants when their rent is due. A number of these organisations have not held proper annual general meetings or observed the articles of association. They resent it when they are asked why they reached certain conclusions.

The organisations to which I refer have no difficulty informing tenants that they own their houses. The State owns and paid for the construction of every one of those houses. The sooner the officials in the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government recognise their responsibilities in this regard the better. I discussed this matter with the Minister of State with responsibility for housing and I am aware that he understands the situation fully and recognises that action must be taken. This country can no longer afford the type of nonsense to which I refer. There is no such thing as handing over houses built during the property boom to some private organisation or other, regardless of whether it is non-profit making or otherwise. The term "non-profit making" always arouses my suspicions.

At a time when we should encourage people to purchase houses - provided there are sufficient funds in the local loan fund - a person seeking a local authority housing loan is obliged to complete a section on the relevant form which deals with his or her credit rating. I do not know why people are being asked to provide information in this regard. Local authorities are housing authorities, they are not banks. If a person has no credit rating at all as a result of the fact that he or she has been destitute and if he or she obtains a job and is in a position, therefore, to meet the repayments on a loan, he or she is entitled to be considered. That is the position under the 1966 Act. Like everything else, however, the position has been modified and watered down to such an extent that nothing works any longer.

If our guests want to know what it is like to be frustrated, I can inform them it happens when one is obliged to complete a form containing 25 or 26 pages. One must supply all sorts of information to prove that one is living in a particular area. I do not know what that has to do with anything. We are living in the digital age and surely if one inputs a person's PPS number in to a computer, all of the information relating to him or her should appear on screen. The system does not appear to work anymore. As a result, people are obliged to fill in copious amounts of documentation.

When one sends the documentation to which I refer to one's local authority and when it is assessed, if some small item of information is missing then it will be returned to the relevant tenant. The form will not be sent to his or her public representative because this is prohibited under the Data Protection Act. Meanwhile, the transient tenant in question will have moved to another location and he or she will never receive the form. People often presume that their application has been with their local authority for two or three years but when they check the position, they are informed that their application is not on file. The local authority will also state that it never received a reply to the letter it sent. In most cases, local authorities may be writing to people who were last to be found at a particular address perhaps five, six or seven years ago. These individuals may have moved on three, four or five occasions in the meantime. What is happening is extremely sad.

In the event that, at the end of the Celtic tiger era, anyone should be of the view that society and the Government have done a great job and that we can relax, I wish to set them straight. In recent weeks, I, like many other members, visited people who live in deplorable conditions. These individuals have no heat and, in some instances, no light because they cannot afford to pay for these services. It is not likely that they will be able to afford them in the future either. It may be the case that some of those to whom I refer are eccentric, elderly or set in their ways. I met one man who was wearing nothing but a vest on a day when the temperature outside was -6o Celsius. I am not surprised that society has become somewhat cynical, particularly in view of the fact that some people are living in the conditions to which I refer.

There is a tendency towards the view that those who depend on the system should not be dependent on it. There are those who believe that these individuals should be dealt with by some other means and that they should not be able to access the system. Society has always had obligations towards its members. It must live up to those obligations because it will become very unstable if it does not do so.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I welcome the officials. The local authority in the part of south Tipperary in which I live has engaged with RAS and the staff have worked very hard in this regard. I accept that the relevant targets have not been met. Previous speakers inquired about this matter and I await the views of the officials as to why the targets have not been met. Landlords must engage with the process and the position with regard to rent supplement must be tidied up completely. I was of the view that this matter had been legislated for some time ago and that landlords must register, must know the location of his or her tenants and must ensure that their properties meet the proper standards.

I take issue with my colleague from County Kildare, Deputy Durkan, in respect of voluntary housing. I am a proud member - I also served as chairman until recently - of a voluntary, non-profit-making housing association. The vast majority of such associations - certainly 99% of them - have made a good effort to provide housing to tenants on a voluntary basis.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

On a point of order, the Deputy is referring to a different scheme. I was referring to voluntary, non-profit-making organisations which administer houses that were built and fully paid for by the State.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I am also referring to such organisations.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

The Deputy is on dangerous territory.

Vice Chairman

Deputy Mattie McGrath should proceed.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

The housing association of which I am a member draws down grants from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, the officials from which have been co-operative. Thousands of people have been housed by these associations. The vast majority of the houses involved are kept in pristine condition by a small group of people who work on a voluntary basis and by tenants. The association of which I am a member clearly understands that the properties involved belong to the State. There are no doubts in that regard. I do not know from where the Deputy is coming in respect of this matter. It is not the first occasion on which I have heard him make comments of this nature.

I am a member of the Irish Council for Social Housing, which does tremendous work. I accept that in recent years some of the bigger organisations have, unfortunately, hijacked the sector. One could certainly question the non-profit-making nature of some of those entities. Those who operate the vast majority of the smaller schemes and the tenants have an excellent relationship. During the recent bad weather, members of the committee of my association checked on tenants to ensure that they had adequate heating, that their pipes had not burst or whatever. I feel obliged to defend these associations because they have played a major role in providing housing. The associations to which I refer are in a position to provide housing much more quickly than local authorities.

On RAS, I await the officials' replies to the questions put by the other members.

Vice Chairman

I thank members for their contributions. I do not know how our guests wish to proceed.

Mr. Michael Layde

Perhaps I will go first and deal with the queries relating to my area. My colleagues may then wish to provide additional information.

In respect of Deputy Ring's comments, we accept that there has been a build-up in the numbers of people who have been in receipt of rent supplement for 18 months or longer. These are the individuals we are targeting in the context of a transfer to RAS. The latter met its target. That target was set in a very different context and we accept that the change in circumstances, including the increase in unemployment and the significant increase in the number of persons on rent supplement - currently approaching 100,000 - has created a real issue for us. Some 44,000 households are in the 18-month plus category at present.

We are attempting to move the maximum number of households across to RAS as quickly as possible. However, that is contingent on the accommodation being available. No more than half of those on rent supplement actually move to RAS and remain in the same accommodation. That can be because landlords do not want to engage with the scheme, a matter to which Deputy Shortall in particular referred and on which I will comment in greater detail in a moment. It may also be the case that the accommodation may not be of the appropriate standard and would not, therefore, be acceptable to a local authority.

Local authorities are challenged to find accommodation for at least half of those who transfer to RAS. There are other issues relating to how the market is working, such as the reluctance of property owners not just to lease to local authorities but to sell to them. That has been a particular difficulty for us this year and it relates in part to an unrealistic expectation with regard to the worth of property. If local authorities offer the market value when purchasing properties or if, when leasing, they offer rents which relate to the current market rate, there is a reluctance among landlords to accept these offers.

We are absolutely aware of the need to manage vacancies in an extremely efficient way. In respect of the rental accommodation scheme, RAS, and leasing, as we pay on a three-monthly basis, local authorities that allow vacancies to accrue are out of pocket. As for social housing that is owned by local authorities, we are investing heavily in remedial works and retrofitting programmes and are working with and urging local authorities to minimise the number of voids in the system and to ensure that the housing stock, which numbers approximately 125,000, is used to the maximum possible extent and as efficiently as possible.

On NAMA and the Department's discussions with that agency, we recently met NAMA and will do so again, possibly even before Christmas. Colleagues there are helpful and supportive in respect of what dividend NAMA may be able to produce for us. However, I stress that the mandate of NAMA is to realise a return for the taxpayer on the loans being transferred to it, and to ensure that those loans are serviced. Consequently, any arrangement we might come to with NAMA, and we hope there is potential for this in the coming year, will involve a payment. However, such a payment would be competitive in terms of the actual market rent for the property, having regard to its location and so on.

I will move on to some of Deputy Shortall's comments. On the respective roles of the two Departments, the Government obviously decides such matters as departmental responsibilities. The present position is that rent supplement is the responsibility of our colleague Department, while the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is responsible for the housing brief. However, the two Departments work together very closely to ensure there is coherence and a joined-up approach between them. As for the characterisation of rent supplement or RAS as being in some senses temporary or emergency measures, income supplement is temporary in that the ambition is that people will find it possible to secure employment or in other ways become self-supporting. However, from a housing perspective, as far as we are concerned when people have an identified need for housing, this need falls to be met for as long as it exists. Consequently, there is no question of it being viewed as temporary or time-bound. It is a question of assessing need and meeting that need indefinitely, if this is what is required. This always has been the philosophy underpinning-----

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Why is there such reluctance to take on responsibility for that sector?

Mr. Michael Layde

If the Deputy means reluctance at official level, I certainly do not perceive any reluctance. It is a matter for the Government to determine the responsibilities of individual Departments and-----

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Why are the targets so low?

Mr. Michael Layde

The targets are linked to what is achievable. Money is not an issue. As there already have been substantial transfers, it would make no sense for a further transfer of funding from rent supplement to RAS unless we can secure the properties. As I stated-----

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Is there not then a question about the performance of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and the local authorities?

Mr. Michael Layde

There certainly have been issues regarding performance. For example, as the Deputy is aware, earlier this year we had industrial relations difficulties in local authorities.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Sorry, that is a red herring.

Mr. Michael Layde

No, it is one of a number-----

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Mr. Layde's Department has been dragging its heels in this area for years. He should not raise the issue of industrial action.

Mr. Michael Layde

It is one of a number of points. There have been operational issues, which are real and must be accepted. In respect of securing property, we have been proactive in working with local authorities in an attempt to try to unblock the existing blocks. The Minister of State, Deputy Finneran, held a series of regional workshops with housing directors throughout the country earlier in the year that specifically addressed the need to accelerate the transfer from rent supplement to RAS and to deal with the roll-out of social leasing generally.

A variety of issues arise for us and for local authorities, some of which were alluded to by Deputy Catherine Byrne and some of which are quite intractable. There is an element of denial in regard to the current value of property. There is reluctance on the part of people to enter into medium to long-term arrangements at a particular level. There are issues surrounding the quality of many properties that are presented. I do not simply refer to those that already are occupied by people in receipt of rent supplement. Even when we seek to source property, issues arise surrounding the quality of such property. It may be significant that this reluctance is not simply related to RAS and leasing but also pertains to property acquisition by local authorities, where similar difficulties are being encountered in respect of finding people who are willing to engage with local authorities and provide the necessary properties.

Therefore, we believe the targets are ambitious but realistic, given the constraints under which we are working. The Department and the local authorities are committed - we have regular contact at a very high level with the County and City Managers' Association - to trying to get the dynamic to move better right across the housing spectrum. However, there are real difficulties and it would be silly not to admit that they exist. They are the difficulties we must attempt to overcome and we are attempting to overcome them.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Mr. Layde should be a little more specific about how the Department is attempting to overcome the aforementioned difficulties.

Mr. Michael Layde

Essentially through outreach. The local authorities and the new Housing and Sustainable Communities Agency are proactively attempting to identify properties and to engage with property owners and estate agents. A highly proactive effort is under way and at the heart of the workshops held by the Minister of State, Deputy Finneran, with the housing directors was an effort to accelerate and drive this forward. I assure the Deputy that this is a sustained effort. However, the difficulty is that it is not producing the results. We obviously cannot compel property owners or landlords to engage with us. We must try to make the transition to dealing with local authorities as attractive as possible but at the same time, we cannot pay more in acquisitions than what we know to be the market value of property. As for leasing arrangements, including RAS, we must ensure that we get value for money. Value for money means that we pay at a rate that discounts the market rate and that acknowledges the responsibilities local authorities take on. In effect, this is the situation that presents itself.

The reference I made to the overall fiscal and economic climate that the Deputy queried was that as we have less uncertainty and more certainty, as the market is perceived to bottom out and as people become more realistic about the future value of property, we hope that people will be more inclined to sell to us in the first instance and second, which is of more relevance to what is under discussion, that they will be more willing to enter into RAS-type or longer-term leasing arrangements because there will be greater realism as to the long-term value of property and an acceptance that there will not be a sudden rebound that would allow people to capitalise. Essentially, this is the scenario. This reluctance is being tackled full-on by my Department, by the Housing and Sustainable Communities Agency and by local authorities with the support of the Minister. We hope that we will get better traction next year and that NAMA may begin to offer us a dividend in this regard.

Another issue raised by Deputy Shortall concerned tax evasion. While my colleague may wish to comment further on this subject, from our perspective, the Minister of State, Deputy Finneran, recently indicated that in the new legislation he intends to introduce on the Private Residential Tenancies Board, he will move from a system of tenancy registration to one of landlord registration, which will be designed to bring greater coherence to that sector and to ensure there is a higher degree of compliance. The Deputy is absolutely correct - I believe other Deputies made the same point - that as one enforces compliance on the private side, one removes some of the barriers to people moving across because there is no incentive any longer not to so do. I believe these were the essential points raised by Deputy Shortall.

Deputy Catherine Byrne referred to the idea of families being in transit in respect of long-term housing and so on and a permanent solution for people. Obviously, the approach to housing policy has evolved in recent years and quite independent of the economic downturn, the Department is moving to the life-cycle approach whereby people's accommodation needs should be tailored to the phases of their lives. That can involve people moving home but it would be wrong to suggest that we have moved away from the idea of people having a long-term home. The social leasing scheme is long-term which within it has the possibility for people to remain in the same house or apartment for a very long period. There is also the continuing option for people under the tenant purchase scheme or the new incremental purchase scheme to move to home ownership.

I am conscious of time and will try to be as quick as possible. On some of Deputy Durkan's comments, with respect, I do not accept the Department has eased out of housing. The approach to social housing has changed and has been set out in our sustainable communities policy document. We are changing; about that there is no doubt. That change was spawned and motivated by a desire to bring a better approach to social housing provision. It was not for economic reasons but the need to move in that direction is now reinforced by the current economic difficulties.

The reality is that the amount of capital funds available to the Department has reduced significantly and is set to reduce further in the coming years.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

I rest my case.

Mr. Michael Layde

In those circumstances we would obviously have to accelerate what we were already doing, which was to look for alternative ways to deliver the social housing which is necessary.

In terms of the quality of the stock, we obviously set very high standards for leasing, securing properties for RAS or taking properties across with tenants. Ironically, one of the difficulties in terms of sourcing stock is that we insist on very high quality accommodation. I have already mentioned stock owned by local authorities and the efforts being made to retrofit, upgrade and ensure that vacancies and voids are kept to a minimum.

On the need to encourage people to purchase their homes, it is a continuing facility which is available to people in the form of the tenant purchase scheme and the new incremental purchase scheme. In the budget yesterday the Minister for Finance indicated there would be enhancement of the tenant purchase scheme, which will be aimed at longer term tenants in particular and we will announce details of that shortly.

Deputy Durkan commented on the voluntary sector. I echo some of Deputy McGrath's comments. We find the voluntary sector to be a very important partner and one which is of growing importance.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Tenants can never buy the house.

Mr. Michael Layde

Tenants will be eligible under the incremental purchase scheme to purchase a house, which may not necessarily be the house in which they live.

There are issues in regard to the voluntary sector which we acknowledge. It is not unlike the rural water sector. Any sector which has a history of community co-operative involvement will involve groups of different sizes and there are issues of governance and so on. It is something which we are anxious to address. We will look more closely at the regulation of the sector and the sector itself would support such an approach, whereby we would ensure the voluntary bodies are viable, well governed and fit for purpose to take on an increasing role in assisting in the provision of social housing.

In terms of credit rating, there are credit checks and the capacity of people to meet loans is assessed. It would be irresponsible not to do so. We have already seen the difficulties some people in the private sector have faced in meeting mortgage repayments. Some people with local authority mortgages have similar difficulties. We do not wish to put people into similar difficulties by advancing loans to those who simply do not have the capacity to meet the repayments. There are credit checks which are sympathetic to the fact that people's circumstances change. If people move from being unemployed to employment and their circumstances change that can be factored in.

On procedures for needs assessment and what has been suggested as being an overly bureaucratic approach, we are streamlining it and will have new regulations early next year. Deputy Durkan referred to people applying to multiple local authorities and so on. We would agree with him. We will move to a system whereby a person will apply to one local authority for a needs assessment which will then be portable for other local authorises. It should also give us greater accuracy in terms of the numbers of people on housing lists.

I agree with what Deputy McGrath had to say on the voluntary sector. I mentioned the need to get landlords to engage again. It is an issue for us and one on which we are working. We have a sense of frustration shared by members of the committee in terms of the inability to get people to engage in the way we wish but we will persevere with that.

My colleagues may wish to make some comments.

Ms Orlaigh Quinn

Deputy Shortall raised the fact that rent supplement is not temporary and I accept that the numbers have grown significantly in recent years. However, its purpose is still perceived as being for individuals who, on taking up employment in the future, would lose their rent supplement because it is a temporary measure. Even within the 97,000 people who currently receive it, we deal with more than 156,000 claims. A large number of people receive rent supplement and then cease to receive it. The idea that we can keep them for 18 months means that, it is to be hoped, they will move out of support altogether, which is the ideal situation if it works.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

How can Ms Quinn say that when she knows it is one of the biggest poverty traps?

Ms Orlaigh Quinn

We also try to work strongly on poverty traps because now people can work and retain some of their income from employment. We made many changes in 2009. We are trying to bring rent supplement as close as possible to the differential rental scheme but it is a cost for the individual because there is a difference of up to €22 per week for a household comprising a couple. For us to try to make rent supplement exactly the same as differential rent would entail a significant cost to the individual.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

If that enables an individual to go to work and move towards being self-sufficient that would make sense.

Ms Orlaigh Quinn

Yes, I accept that but anybody who is now in receipt of rent supplement for 18 months can go to work. They have disregards----

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Why is the Department insisting on the 18 month rule?

Ms Orlaigh Quinn

In terms of why such people could not work immediately, there would be a huge number of individuals claiming rent supplement.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I am not saying we should go to the opposite extreme, rather, we should recognise the problem that exists for people on welfare.

Ms Orlaigh Quinn

It is something we are considering. We are trying to bring the scheme as close as we can to differential rents. Even within the past two years the minimum contribution has increased from €13 in the budget for 2009 to €24 which is a significant increase. Rent limits are another element on which we keep a very close eye. We do not wish to lead the market given that we have so much of an influence on it.

Rent limits reduced by 8% in 2009 and 4% this year. We did a major review of rents recently and they only increased by 0.7%. It is something of which we are very conscious and we did it on a systematic basis at county level. Within local areas community welfare officers keep a very close eye on the actual rents in an area. Rent limits are also imposed.

Deputy Durkan referred to tax evasion and the Social Welfare Bill which is currently before the House will make it very clear that all landlords must now produce their PPS numbers. We have been doing it up to now but the Bill will nail the issue once and for all. We stop rent allowance in cases where we do not get PPS numbers from landlords. It is quite a strong measure which will put an end to that difficulty.

They were the main points which were raised.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

We have already discussed PPS numbers and we know it takes more than a year to validate them. Therefore, it is a particularly strong measure. The Department could have gone much further if it was serious about tackling tax evasion. Mr. Michael Layde mentioned the reluctance of landlords to engage in RAS. It appears that a major element of the concern on the part of landlords is that if they take on tenants who engage in anti-social activity, rent will not be passed on, there is the potential for their properties to be badly damaged and they are left to pick up the tab. In recognition of that problem, has the Department given consideration to introducing legislation to ensure the provisions of the housing Acts in regard to local authority tenants would be extended to tenants on RAS, so that the local authority would have the power to move to evict people if they engage in anti-social activity? Is not that the main concern of landlords?

Mr. Michael Layde

I am not sure it is. It is a concern but it is difficult to estimate where the balance of concerns rest and how much of it is related to taxation issues and an unwillingness to be locked into an arrangement, some of which has to do with a concern about not being able to select tenants. There is a mix of reasons. I presume anti-social behaviour is an aspect of it. In fairness to those persons on rent supplement and those who live in social housing, it is very much a minority who are involved in anti-social behaviour. The issue is more in the realm of the property value. We are not in the business of purchasing or leasing large numbers of housing units in apartment blocks or in estates and having large concentrations of people on social housing or RAS. There is, perhaps, a concern on the part of developers who have significant amounts of property that by moving into RAS or longer-term leasing the image of the development is changed in some way and its potential value, in terms of selling units on the private market-----

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Why not introduce a quota system to ensure a limit on the number of RAS units or rent supplement units in any one development?

Mr. Michael Layde

Essentially that is what we are trying to do but it works the other way. For example, there could be circumstances where a developer would be willing to give the Department or a local authority a full block.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Nobody would be in favour of that. That would be madness.

Mr. Michael Layde

Yes, absolutely. The sustainable communities approach is essentially about what is termed "pepper-potting" - the idea is tenure mix - people in social housing intermixed in developments in communities. The difficulty in some instances, and colleagues are alive to this, is that where there are properties and the property owner has an ambition to sell those properties for the maximum return, which may be much less than envisaged when the development took place, there is concern that engaging with the Department in terms of social housing in whatever form, may have the effect of reducing further the amount that could be realised from subsequent property transactions. That is probably more of a issue than the much more isolated issues of anti-social behaviour and so on.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

They are inter-related obviously. The main concern is the behaviour of the tenant.

Mr. Michael Layde

That is to suggest there is wide-scale anti-social behaviour.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

No, but it is an issue that has to be recognised.

Mr. Michael Layde

The issue is one of perception, that is, that prospective buyers of properties are perceived not to want to purchase properties where there is an intermix with social housing.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Yes, because there is no control. That is one of the main reasons.

Mr. Michael Layde

There is control. We would certainly happily look at what other measures we can take. We are in the business of smoothing the way in terms of ensuring that the obstacles, some real and some cultural or apparent, are removed.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

This is an issue we all come across in our constituencies where there are problems with anti-social activity. At least if the unit is owned by the local authority it can move to evict tenants if they are engaged in anti-social activity. Therefore, there is some control in respect of behaviour-----

Mr. Michael Layde

Or if it is leased by the local authority.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

-----and maintaining standards. The difficulty in those units is where people are on rent supplement and engage in anti-social activity there is virtually nothing that can be done about them because the law is so weak in this area. Has the Department given any consideration to extending the provisions of the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Acts to tenants on rent supplement?

Mr. Michael Layde

Not to those on rent supplement.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Would the Department considering doing that?

Mr. Michael Layde

Certainly we could. We are open to considering any such initiative. Getting back to the Deputy's original point about the respective roles of the two Departments, the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government works within the parameters of social housing and has a fairly robust system in the context of dealing with social housing tenants in terms of support, anti-social behaviour and so on. Obviously what Deputy Shortall is speaking about is extending that regime to persons on rent supplement to reduce the resistance to moving that cohort into social housing. I hear what the Deputy is saying. I will certainly consult colleagues on it but I am not aware that we have given any particular consideration to that issue.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Every Member of the House knows that it is a major issue and I do not know how the Department is not aware of that?

Vice Chairman

I support that view because that issue certainly crosses my desk. Where a tenant in a local authority estate is moved on for whatever reason, whether for serious anti-social behaviour in which they have engaged or for not paying rent, he or she goes to the social welfare office to seek assistance, he or she moves into a private estate and causes the same problems and nothing can be done. As Deputy Shortall said, we are all getting those cases and people are frustrated that nothing can be done about them.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

The Private Residential Tenancies Board, the local authority and the Health Service Executive cannot do anything about them and when a Garda confronts them they look him straight in the eye.

Vice Chairman

That is correct.

Ms Orlaigh Quinn

Certainly I am very aware of the issue that arises but the contract is between the landlord and the tenant when it is a rent supplement case. The landlord has a number of options available to him. He can approach the Private Residential Tenancies Board, the Garda Síochána and the community welfare officer.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

It does not work.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

It does not work. This is part of the problem. If the Department paid the rent directly to landlords it would have control of the situation.

Ms Orlaigh Quinn

The landlord can seek termination of the tenancy and the rent supplement would cease.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

How long does that take?

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

He does not want to in some case.

Vice Chairman

I can invite the officials out to my constituency - this is not just about my constituency. It does not work.

Ms Orlaigh Quinn

Why then does the landlord not cease the tenancy? I am sorry. I do not understand.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

It is expensive and it takes forever to take a case through the courts.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

In some cases it is quite convenient for the landlord to leave the tenant there because there is a payment coming in and he does not want the trouble and the bother. He will not cut the grass and he will not do anything.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

The problem is for the neighbours.

Ms Orlaigh Quinn

I presume one has exactly the same problem with private tenants renting.

Vice Chairman

Yes, but one can do something about it. We are all highlighting an issue about which there is frustration that no action has been possible in the past and nothing is being done. This is happening not just in housing estates in my constituency but in every constituency. It is an issue. There is the view that people can get a rent subsidy and then go to hell. The Private Residential Tenancies Board is not effective - I am sorry for saying that but it is not. Other colleagues have made the point in respect of other agencies. It does not work, it is still a problem.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

May I make a point on that issue? There is a difference between that and a privately rented house. When a person lets a house in the private sector and if, for some reason, the relationship breaks down some landlords decide arbitrarily to evict the tenants. That happened in the past. They are not entitled to do that - they must get a court order and can then remove the tenant from the house. In a market that is depressed, as it is at present, an unscrupulous landlord - I am not saying all landlords are unscrupulous, because there are some very good landlords - can say "I am getting an income from the house, that is the only kind of person I am going to get the income from and that is where they will stay". The degree to which they upset the neighbours by creating a nuisance, does not come into it. As to the Private Residential Tenancies Board, to which Mr. Layde and Ms Quinn referred, I could paper the walls with the letters I get from it telling me it has no function in the matter.

Ms Orlaigh Quinn

It has a mediation service; it has a function.

Vice Chairman

It does not work.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

It used to, but it has gone.

Ms Orlaigh Quinn

There are agencies that will deal with the situation, for example the Garda Síochána. As far as rent supplement is concerned, people are treated in exactly the same way as an individual in the private sector. Approximately 50% of the tenants in the private rented sector are on rent supplement. It is very difficult to deal with the small number of individuals who are being a nuisance, as was pointed out, but if problems are brought to the attention of the community welfare officer, they have the discretion to withdraw the rent supplement at any time.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

We all come across these problems. There is a solution and we know that it is limited but reasonably effective, that is the eviction procedure under the housing Acts. It would seem to be fairly straightforward to extend the provisions of that to people on rent supplement or RAS.

Mr. Michael Layde

We can look at that, however, I can see issues. The Deputy is talking about a situation where the private owner of property has a contract with a citizen. The citizen is in receipt of rent supplement but nonetheless the inherent contractual relationship is between the-----

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Would it not solve a great many problems if the rent was paid directly to the landlord?

Ms Orlaigh Quinn

Why would that solve the problem? The landlord can go to the community welfare officer and say he does not want this person getting rent supplement anymore. Obviously that is not happening.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Deputy Durkan has just said what happens in that instance. The problem is normally for the neighbours.

Ms Orlaigh Quinn

We would cease the payment to the landlords, so we would have to mediate on whether behaviour is anti-social behaviour.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

That is why the local authority should take responsibility. It is not a matter for the Department of Social Protection.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

The HSE will write back and say it has no function in the matter. The Private Residential Tenancies Board will also say it has no function in the matter, whereas two to four years ago, one could write to the PRTB and it would take some action, but that has now finished.

Deputy McGrath thinks all the voluntary housing agencies are a great boost, but I do not agree. This gives rise to a significant liability for the State, in respect of which the State has invested 100%. There are voluntary housing agencies and local co-operatives. Local co-operatives are generally very good. Unfortunately the system whereby private sites were made available through the local authorities to potential tenant purchasers is no longer working. That was an effective system. Every person who got a site, got their own loan and are paying for their own house and are not costing the State anything. In contract to a 100% grant under the capital allowance scheme, continued maintenance with upgrading will cost millions over time and the tenant can never purchase the house. I raised this issue on the Adjournment a number of times. The Minister of State with responsibility for housing accepts the veracity of my point. He knows that and is doing something about it. If there is a presumption that this is a great way to solve the housing problem, let me tell them it is not. The traditional way for solving the housing problem was that the local authority would build the houses, rent them to the tenant but with an option for the tenant to purchase his or her house. These options were of economic benefit to the country and to the tenant, and all 'round it was a much more beneficial system than the situation that is developing. I think we will return to that way at some stage. If I have influence at any time in the future, we will return to those schemes.

Vice Chairman

Is that a prediction?

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

It is more than likely that I will not have it, but if I ever did, I can tell Deputies where we will be going.

Vice Chairman

I suggest to the delegation that they consider the points made by members and perhaps they could look again at the issues and return to discuss them at a future committee meeting.

This has been an interesting meeting and I thank the delegates for their attendance and attention. I thank members for their attendance.

There are 17 days until Christmas and l wish everybody a festive season.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

With all this wind and hail, I do not know how the Vice Chairman could do that.

The committee adjourned at 12.25 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 19 January 2010.