Joint Committee on Social Protection, Community and Rural Development and the Islands debate -
Wednesday, 2 Mar 2022

National Action Plan on the Development of the Islands: Discussion (Resumed)

Chairman

I remind members participating remotely that they must do so from within the precincts of Leinster House. I am pleased today to continue our discussion of the priority item on the committee's work programme, which is our continued consideration of the proposed national action plan on the development for the islands from the Department of Community and Rural Development. The coastal islands and communities are a crucial part of our history and heritage. Our committee wants to hear the voice of islanders and get their opinion on what is needed to stop population decline, to reduce the downward trend and to build and sustain vibrant communities. Key issues that will be discussed include vital transport and social infrastructure needed by islands including education, childcare, transport, housing and broadband, and key supports needed for industry such as tourism, fishing and farming. In this regard I welcome board members of Comhdháil Oileáin na hÉireann for our second engagement with the federation. In particular I welcome, joining us remotely, Ms Aisling Moran, an cathaoirleach from Sherkin Island, Mr. Simon Murray from Inishbofin and Mr. John Walsh from Bere Island. They are all very welcome.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in regard to an identifiable person or entity they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Witnesses participating remotely and from outside the precincts of Leinster House today, are reminded that parliamentary privilege does not apply in their case and the same level of caution should be applied as previously mentioned.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I now call on Ms Aisling Moran to make her opening statement.

Ms Aisling Moran

I thank the Chairman for his comments on the islands and the national action plan. We welcome his comments on it. The opportunity to highlight some of the challenges facing offshore islands is very much appreciated today. As the Chairman stated, this is our second appearance before the committee. We welcome the policy document, Our Rural Futures, in particular chapter 10 which deals with supporting the sustainability of our islands and coastal communities. To recap quickly for those who do not know, Comhdháil Oileáin na hÉireann was founded in 1984 and represents the offshore inhabited islands. The organisation’s aim is the social, economic and cultural development of the island communities through representation at local, national, and EU levels. Comhdháil Oileáin na hÉireann’s overarching aim is to maintain and develop the islands, which is in line with our Our Rural Futures policy document. While islands have much in common, it is important to remember that there are many nuances and bespoke approaches may be needed for certain challenges. As the chair of Comhdháil Oileáin na hÉireann I represent islanders. I am the project co-ordinator for Sherkin Island Development Society and act as an island advocate. For the past decade I have been working with the islands seeking comprehensive means to live sustainably on our offshore islands. My colleagues here are Simon Murray from Inishbofin and John Walsh from Bere Island. Simon has spent his entire life working with and for island communities, ensuring key concerns are continuously addressed. Many members will know him from his continual addressing of key concerns of the islands. John Walsh is project manager for Bere Island Projects Group and is the chair of the European Small Islands Federation, ESIN, and an islands advocate.

Comhdháil Oileáin na hÉireann finds it necessary at the start of our opening statement to reiterate the shocking population statistics. In 1841 there were 34,219 people living on our offshore islands. By 2016 there were 2,627. No other community has experienced such a decline. That is pointed out in the national action plan. These figures have not improved and some islands have moved closer to the edge. Serious and continued Government support is needed to ensure the long-term viability of our offshore islands. We can see the way this trend is going and where we are going to be in 20 or 30 years' time if it continues.

Comhdháil Oileáin na hÉireann would like to highlight four areas of concern and if time allows, address other areas the Chairman addressed also. The first area of concern is housing. The social context in how we live has disproportionately impacted the housing situation on the islands. Updated laws on planning policy limit the ability of islanders to be able to build on their islands. Ireland has seen an increase in second-home ownership and this demand has driven the price of existing island housing stock out the reach of islanders. Like no other area, islands are finite spaces. Therefore islanders need to be able either to afford to build or buy homes on the islands. Alternative mainland housing options are not a solution to the island housing crises. The housing situation on the offshore islands is urgent. It is an area where there has been very little research carried out to date. University College Cork, in conjunction with Comhar na nOileán and Comhdháil Oileáin na hÉireann, is currently engaged to conduct a comprehensive housing survey on all the offshore inhabited islands. The outcomes of this survey will result in a report and housing recommendations for the offshore islands.

In September 2022 Comhdháil Oileáin na hÉireann will host its annual general meeting, the main theme of which will be housing and the outcomes of this report. All members are welcome to attend that and invites will go out at a later stage. Comhdháil Oileáin na hÉireann is hopeful that this report will be an input into Our Rural Futures, as one of the policy measures is the ten-year island policy document and it will also be an input into that. This will be a substantial evidence-backed research document.

The second area of concern we need to look at, which the Chair also mentioned, is connectivity and broadband. The past two years have been challenging and very different for the whole world and islanders are no different. One of the main results of the Covid-19 pandemic is that people want to and sometimes must work from home. There is a new age of remote working already building in Ireland.

Comhdhaíl Oileáin na hÉireann sees this as an opportunity for islanders to attract emigrant islanders and new residents to the islands. To do this, we need sufficient housing and reliable high-speed broad systems in place. As we stated in our previous presentation to the committee, in exploring the opportunities for Gteic digital hubs, broadband connection points, BCPs, and enterprise hubs in our communities, it is vital that the national broadband plan, NBP, provides islands with fibre optic cable connections from the mainland. We must stay in step with the mainland all the way along.

The national action plan, Our Rural Future, notes that 58% of people on the islands have access to computers and 55% have access to broadband. This is considerably lower than on the mainland, where 73% of the population have access to a household computer and 72% to the Internet. While the NBP is meant to deliver high-speed broadband to all areas of Ireland, and several islands already have BCPs and have developed Internet hubs that are proving very successful, there is much more to be done and it must be done at a faster pace. People cannot and will not put their businesses and lives on hold waiting for the infrastructure to catch up with the technology.

The third area I want to speak about today is infrastructure, lifelong services and capital funding. The islands capital budget programme funds infrastructure projects, lifelong services and capital works. We believe there is definite scope for an increase in this budget to reflect the real needs of the offshore islands. Our Rural Future states that the Government will invest in vital infrastructure on the islands over the lifetime of the policy to ensure safe access for islanders, service providers and visitors alike. For us, infrastructure is not only about safe access; it is about the everyday lives of islanders and the future sustainability of the islands. Comhdhaíl Oileáin na hÉireann would like to see a consistent budget that can meet the needs of the offshore islands, working in conjunction with the interdepartmental committee on islands development, island inter-agency groups and local authorities. The islands capital budget programme is crucial to the sustainability of the offshore islands. The success of the island policy document depends on real financial support and backing through its implementation. The budget has, in the past, proven to be capable of covering a wide range of vital areas of island life integral to the future of the offshore islands.

The final issue I want to raise, which is part of a broader current debate, is energy. Sustainable energy is the way forward and a key consideration for the whole country at this time. As islanders, we are really keen to be at the forefront of these new developments. We are already working at this on an EU level through its clean energy for EU islands secretariat. My colleague, Mr. Walsh, may say more about that presently. Working with the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications, there is major potential for all offshore islands to work at a local and national level. The recent Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI, national home retrofit scheme was welcome. However, that scheme is a key example of how things do not translate to the islands due to the higher costs of works and the requirements on contractors. It is an example of where island-proofing would aid in the understanding of these nuances. We are hopeful that through engagement with the interdepartmental committee and the Minister, we will get resolution on this. Islands are ideal test beds for energy pilot projects.

The issues I have touched on by no means amount to a comprehensive list of those relevant to offshore islands. We certainly would welcome an expansion of the conversation to include policies around health, education, agriculture, marine access, childcare, enterprise, employment, fire and emergency services, waste management, tourism, youth and older people, many of which are considered within the 12 policy measures of the national action plan. One of the most important policy measures in that plan is the ten-year islands policy development plan, which will allow us to expand on all these areas. We recognise that being here before the committee today is a great opportunity. We see great potential and great opportunities in our working together. We acknowledge that the work on the islands policy document being done by the Department is central to our rural future and our success and sustainability into the future. We request that a draft version of this document, along with an implementation plan, be presented to the island communities before its final publication. We recognise the real importance of the interdepartmental committee, alongside the Department, in the process of writing the policies document. As representatives of Comhdhaíl Oileáin na hÉireann, we are grateful for the opportunity to speak here today. We see these opportunities as key to the delivery of Government policies and the means to secure the future of Ireland's offshore islands for coming generations. We can turn the tide on the numbers and ensure we have sustainable living on the islands. I thank members for taking the time to listen to me.

Chairman

I thank Ms Moran for her comprehensive presentation outlining the challenges that are there. I call Deputy Ó Cuív.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

It is good that the witnesses could join us today. One positive development that has come out of the Covid period is the acceptance within the Oireachtas that things can be done remotely when necessary. A large number of issues have been raised and we could say a lot about them. I am appalled at the lack of progress in regard to the islands in the past 12 years. I got the figures from the Department on the contracts that have been entered into, showing that the infrastructure on Inis Meáin was built but there was some money still to be paid and Inis Mór was under construction. In the 11 years from 2000 to 2010, €128 million was spent on infrastructure for islands. In the 11 years since, €12 million was spent. Despite all the planning, we are not getting delivery.

I looked at other issues during my time as Minister. For example, in 1997, there were ferry services only to Gaeltacht islands and there was a hotchpotch of different systems. All of that was unified into one system and every island with any significant population got a ferry service, irrespective of which language is spoken there. The social welfare allowance was introduced in that period, giving an extra provision per week for people on an invalidity pension and other pensions. The special island tax on cars was introduced and a doctor was allocated to Inis Oírr. All of that happened by 2010 and other things were done as well. Since then, the most significant positive change I have seen for the islands is the decision that all schools must have two teachers, which I utterly welcome. However, it seems to me we are not really going forward at the moment. One of my main concerns is that we will lose years to all this planning. The plan I had at the time was written on three pages and we just went and did the things. I am not boasting because it was done; I am saying this because, to me, the train stopped with a jolt and it has not started again.

I will concentrate on a few points and ask the witnesses whether they consider them to be major issues. First, should everybody who lives permanently on an island and does not have a home automatically be considered, which they are not in many counties, to have a housing need for the purposes of planning permission? Very few of the islands have towns. That is the number one issue if we are talking about housing. Second, should local authorities be obliged to house island applicants who want to stay on islands rather than putting them on lists on the mainland against their wishes? Third, do we require the provision of affordable housing on the islands?

Broadband provision is being rolled out but it is happening very slowly at the moment. The NBP has undertaken to provide broadband speeds of 30 Mbps or more. I credit the Chairman with much of the work that was done in this regard.

The problem is it does not specify fibre-optic cable to each island, so they can provide radio broadband over 30 Mbps and they would be out the gap. That is not acceptable.

I will tie this to my next brief point. In my experience there is only one way to deal with capital deficits on islands, and that is for the island fund of the Department dealing with the islands to be significant and the Minister to have freedom with that fund. This is not part of the national broadband plan so National Broadband Ireland has no obligation to put in fibre to every island. The fund should be for matters such as installing fibre cable, sewerage and water infrastructure, as well as power and new electric connections to the mainland, telecommunications, health and leisure facilities, piers, roads and anything else requiring a capital input over and above what would be required on the mainland. It would also overcome the cost-benefit problems. For example, Irish Water would argue it is a commercial entity and it must have priorities so if there is a location with over 1,000 houses versus an island, with the cost of work on the island being greater, the cost-benefit analysis would send it to the bottom of the list.

We overcame this before because the island fund would provide the money. A company would be contracted to run the service and put in an amount of money equivalent to a service on the mainland, with the Department making up the difference. Do the witnesses agree we must go back to that process of getting the job done with the expenditure? It is not only about the money but the freedom to spend that money on any deficit that the islands Department sees and where people are arguing the cost-benefit analysis does not justify the work?

I can get into specifics on the energy question. I understand the witnesses have already sought a meeting with the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications, Deputy Eamon Ryan, and I have raised the matter with him. I am not getting much satisfaction but I understand the requests are very simple. As before, the upper limits on expenditure should be higher than on the mainland, and the Minister gave some hope in that respect. The €50,000 figure would be €60,000, €65,000 or whatever on an island because it costs more to do the same thing when we consider cost of materials, labour etc. A second request is that grant percentage rates would be higher, so 50% would become 60% and so on. A third request is that there would not be a requirement for island-based contractors to have a turnover of €1 million per year. It is hard enough for that to happen on the mainland but it is impossible on islands and it will exclude island contractors.

I have probably said enough for this round, although I could say much more on the topics being discussed. When we are looking at drafting our document, we must continue improving ferry and air services, education, health, fishing, childcare, ambulance and fire services. Nothing should be excluded from what we write and the fact that we might not necessarily discuss everything here today should not be seen as an indication that this committee will not look at all facets of life and come up with cogent proposals on them. I have utmost faith in the committee and it has the freedom to put whatever it thinks fit in the report. A matter does not have to be mentioned here today to go into the report. It is a committee report and not just about us transmitting what witnesses might manage to say in a very short time.

Chairman

We will start with Ms Moran and if other witnesses then wish to contribute, they might pick up on some of the aspects raised by Deputy Ó Cuív.

Ms Aisling Moran

I appreciate the Deputy raising all those matters. I will start with housing and I agree wholeheartedly with what Deputy Ó Cuív has said. Everybody on the island looking to build or move has a housing need and we have a position where people are living with gracious family members. There is nowhere else for them to live, however, and sometimes they are being told there is no housing need because they are living with brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers or cousins. It is not sustainable or acceptable in the long term. If people want to have their own home and can do it, they have a housing need.

One of the biggest issues we see is people being on the local authority housing list but if there is no housing on the island, they are offered houses on the mainland. We mentioned in our opening statement that islands are finite resources. We see all the planning going into trying to make islands sustainable so when something like this happens, the Government policy seems to be driving people off the island. People might be given the option of a house but they cannot have it on the island and it is on the mainland. That does not do anything to sustain our population. If somebody is an islander, is on the local housing list and wishes to live on the island, a house on the island should be offered to that person.

There is definitely a need for an affordable housing system within the islands. We need all sorts of people living on the islands and we must also be cognisant of the fact that the price of housing on the islands has been driven up due to the demands of society. We need a system of affordable housing on the islands where we have hard-working people who want to stay on the islands and would be willing to build or buy houses. There is a definite need in that regard.

We cannot say what the report or surveys will bring over the next couple of months but we are very hopeful that research will be weighted. It has gone through an ethics board. As the Deputy has said, we as Comhdháil na hÉireann recognise that these are solutions but there will be academics indicating the problems and survey findings, and we are very hopeful that we will be able to make real requests based on what people want on the island and the research has proven. We hope to bring that to the Government so it can formulate policy. We hope the committee can look at that and the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, has already said she will look at it. We hope the housing Department will also consider the matter.

Mr. Murray might speak to the fund and Mr. Walsh might speak to the energy question. Again, I agree with the Deputy's comments on broadband and some of my colleagues might want to speak to it. Fibre-optic broadband must go to our islands or otherwise by the time we get the radio signal, we will be behind already. That is what is happening. The Deputy is 100% correct that the national broadband plan contains no obligation to bring fibre to the islands and it is not part of the deal. We need a way to get that fibre to our islands. By the time the radio signal gets to our island goes around all the houses, we will be so far behind the mainland we will be back before the committee in five or ten years saying that our broadband is not up to scratch in comparison with the mainland. If we are going to do it now, let us do it right and in a manner that will keep us in line with the mainland. That is just common sense from our perspective as islanders.

Mr. Murray and Mr. Walsh might speak to the other topics or even those on which I have commented.

Mr. John Walsh

I agree with Deputy Ó Cuív's points. On the question of broadband, if we get a radio link with 30 Mbps, in a year or two years we will be looking for fibre. If we had to attend a meeting today in Leinster House, we are probably the only community in Ireland that would have to have two overnight stays. Our first ferry this morning was 7.45 a.m. and I would not have made the meeting for 9.30 a.m. in Dublin. Our last ferry last night was 6.30 p.m. and if I had to get that going home, it would not be doable to get it from Dublin.

We really need proper broadband and the only solution to future-proof the islands for 30 years is fibre broadband. An expert on broadband said to me once that the radio link is like a water connection in that if one or two people use it, it is very good, but if 50 or 60 people start using it at the same time, it is useless. That is what would happen and we already know 30 Mbps was probably not good enough two years ago, never mind two years from now, when it will be behind.

I agree with Deputy Ó Cuív's points on infrastructure. In the past it worked. On my island, Heir, the islanders were key partners in whatever projects were going ahead. We were partners with the local authority, Cork County Council, and with the islands division. They work very well. Lately there has been some slippage and the islanders are not really getting a say in what is going on. As Deputy Ó Cuív said, very little is happening which is disappointing. In Deputy Ó Cuív's constituency, issues with the pier in Inis Oírr have been going on for many years. I was there myself. It is vital infrastructure. I cannot understand why that has not been done.

On housing, as Ms Moran said, some people are living with their parents and living in mobile homes. They are the unseen homeless people. We are trying to encourage people, particularly young families, to live on islands. I know young families here with babies living in substandard accommodation. They do not make enough to get a mortgage and they make too much to get social housing. Local authority housing is not an option for them. They need affordable housing. We need to come up with schemes. Hopefully, the study being carried out at the moment will give us some answers to that.

On energy, I am chairman of the European Small Islands Federation. It was set up in May 2001 and has 11 members ranging from Scotland, France, the Åland Islands off Finland, right down to Croatia, Greece and Italy. We work at a local level. We share best practice and we also work at a European level trying to influence EU policy. We represent 1,640 islands and approximately 360,000 islanders. We have built up key partnerships over the years with, for example, the Conference of Peripheral Maritime Regions, CPMR; Greening the Islands; and FEDARENE, the federation of energy agencies. We are partners with all of them.

Over the years we have built on our work. We have done considerable work on energy. We were instrumental in setting up the clean energy for EU islands secretariat and also the facility for funding energy projects for islands, New Energy Solutions Optimized for Islands, NESOI. We are delighted that Inishbofin in Galway is a beneficiary of that. Cape Clear, Bere Island and Inis Mór were beneficiaries of the clean energy for EU islands. That secretariat is set up to support islands in their energy transition.

We need to convince the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, to do something with the islands so we are not left behind. If we get the same rate as the mainland, it is actually a step behind for us because on islands costs are 30% to 40% higher. I do not understand why he does not do what the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine does when it comes to building agricultural sheds. If a shed costs, for example, €10,000 on the mainland, it adds the extra amount it costs on an island. It may add 30% indicating the shed on the island will cost €13,000 and then the grant rate remains the same. That was the approach the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine took to solve it for islands. That scheme was successful. Many buildings were built on islands. We would welcome a meeting with the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, on that.

If islands do not get their energy plans in order, we will be in serious trouble. We recently had a visit from Soren Hermansen from the EU energy island of Samsø. He pointed out how important energy is for the future of islands. Living on islands is already costly enough. As we know, there have been three increases in energy in the recent months. If that continues, it will force people from the islands because we simply will not be able to live on the islands with the extra costs of energy on top of the extra cost of living on the islands. That is all I have to say for the moment and I would be available to answer any questions.

Mr. Simon Murray

On the housing issue, no more than on the mainland it is a very complicated situation. Turnkey properties are often available for sale on islands. The local authorities never purchase these properties to solve housing needs across the islands. They always seem to want to take the long route of securing sites and building which is considerably costlier as a rule. There may be a block there in local authority rules, but surely it should be changed for islands which are geographically confined and there is only so much room on an island for housing in the first place. It is a major issue because, as Ms Moran said, if people cannot live on the islands the domino effect from that is that everything else is in the negative. If an island cannot maintain its population, everything else falls apart after that. Keeping our communities on the islands is crucial; that is Comhdháil's main aim. Hopefully, that is also the Government's main aim, but sometimes it is questionable.

On the infrastructure budget, I know money was tight in the country a few years ago but still I do not think there was any excuse that no money was requested by the island section from the Department - at least that is what I was told at the time. I was shocked at the time because regardless of the overall budgetary constraints across Departments, a request should always go in to seek funding for the islands. I would hope there will never be a repeat of that again. The thinking on that needs to be expanded so that budgets that are sought are realistic to achieve all the aims and objectives we are talking about here today. Hopefully that mindset will shift. I believe the work of this committee will have a significant part to play in that.

Deputy Claire Kerrane

I thank all the witnesses for being here this morning and I thank Ms Moran for her opening statement. I wish to follow up particularly on housing. I am aware of the requirement to demonstrate a local need with planning applications. When people get to the stage of applying for planning permission, what are the factors leading to refusal in the first instance?

I welcome the work that UCC is doing. I presume that will look at housing stock overall, including local authority houses, houses available for rent and vacant houses. When is that research due to be finalised? I know Ms Moran said she is hopeful that the Minister will look at that in the context of the upcoming policy plan for the islands again, which I believe has been delayed again. Based on a reply to a parliamentary question that I got about two weeks ago, I was told that the Minister expects a draft to be ready for her consideration by the middle of this year. Obviously, the witnesses want that draft to be made available to them. This is not the first time they have asked for that. Have they requested that from the Minister or the Department and what was the response?

Broadband is obviously very important for all of us. It is just as important for the islands. The witnesses have said that broadband connection points, BCPs, are already available on several islands. How many have them? Is any work under way on the further roll-out of BCPs? Ms Moran mentioned the need to accelerate the broadband plan which does not seem to be happening now. We are concerned that last year's revised target was also missed.

Regarding the policy overall and all the issues outlined today, what level of engagement do the witnesses have directly with the Minister? Have they met her? How many times have they met her?

On energy, if a request has gone in for a meeting with the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, this committee can certainly push for that to happen. To date that meeting has not taken place.

If the islands policy is published and includes the need for island proofing, we should not have these issues with schemes that are introduced. We should not have these issues if island proofing was there in the first instance when schemes like this come forward which do not consider the added barriers and challenges for island communities, particularly when it comes to grants. As Mr. Walsh outlined, the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine did this and it could very easily be done for energy, housing grants and everything else affecting both the mainland and the islands.

Ms Aisling Moran

I thank the Deputy for her questions. I will try to answer them as comprehensively as possible. We are hopeful on the UCC research. We are finalising working groups around the survey. The guideline is to have the survey completed by the start of the summer and UCC would begin to analyse the data thereafter. We hope to have it for the middle of the summer or towards the end. Our annual general meeting is in September so we will definitely have it for that. The data will be collected by the end of May because there is no point in doing research or data collection on islands in the summertime. We hope to have that done and UCC will collate and analyse the data and have the report soon after. We are in line with the timeline for the policy document also, which will be useful.

On sharing a draft, I believe, unless somebody corrects me, that we have not had an official response in writing but it was mentioned at the joint Oireachtas committee when officials from the Department were before it. I think it was said they would share a draft with us. Maybe somebody could clarify that. We keep asking because there has not been anything in writing but we have had good engagement with Department officials Bairbre Nic Aongusa and Bríd Ní Chonghaile on the policy document. Comhdháil has not met with the Minister on the policy document but we met with her officials in the summertime. Bríd Ní Chonghaile is always available and I think they are going to one more island now that things have opened up again.

BCPs are working quite well. We need acceleration. BCPs are fantastic. I do not have the exact number of hubs but perhaps one of my colleagues has. I do not want to give a figure that is not 100% correct. We need it going to houses to keep us in line with the mainland. Some of the buildings on islands are substandard when we look at the communal spaces, while some small islands do not have a communal space. There are challenges around that. We welcome the BCPs. It is great to have something but we need something more. People are looking for stuff to go to their houses, as well as having BCPs to come out and work at. That is the same all over the country and we are hopeful we get the same response on it.

That is as well as I can answer those questions. If any of my colleagues want to come in on any of those, by all means do.

Mr. Simon Murray

Deputy Kerrane covered a lot of ground so will she just come back if anything was not answered by Ms Moran?

Deputy Claire Kerrane

When people are putting in a planning application, is local need an issue, as it has been in our area? If not, what are the barriers when people go for planning permission? Why are people being refused, or is it that people are not going for planning permission in many cases?

Ms Aisling Moran

There is local need. People are going for planning permission. There are environmental issues. Many islands are now in special areas of conservation, SACs, and there are many environmental reports which drive up the price of planning. I know of properties close to each other on one island, one of which had to get an environmental report and one of which had to get an archaeological report. Each such report costs no less than €1,500. One of the reports was done in March and they were told they had to do it in bloom in May. These things do not get stated beforehand so if you want to build, the timeline is that all the environmental reports have to be done in May. This is a nuance to that particular island.

When we look at local need, an adult member of a family of four had lived in England and stated that he owned a house there, so he was told he had no local need even though he had been living on the island for the last eight years and had returned home to work in and be in the area. He had to sell the house he had in England to make sure he could prove local need. That increased cost and delayed the process when logic would tell us there was a local need. His kids were in school there, he was an islander by birth, had come back to live on the island and did not realise this would be an obstacle. People are going for planning and there are many nuances and costs incurred. One of the fine balances is we all want to protect the environment but if there are no people living on it, we will have wilderness. We have to find the fine balance between protecting the environment of the islands as special places to live and ensuring people can build on the islands in a respectful manner.

Chairman

There is the opportunity to use our islands as pilot templates for challenges we have on the mainland in terms of ehealth. I was on Inishbofin approximately 20 years ago dealing with health issues out there as a member of the Western Health Board. There is an opportunity with the development of broadband to provide innovative new health tools and the islands are an ideal template to use for the development of such technology.

While there is an issue with housing on the islands, there is also a challenge with existing vacant properties. We all see that first-hand in our rural communities. The islands could be used as a template to look at overcoming this challenge and replicating that knowledge on the mainland. There is huge opportunity in the area of energy, and I will come back to that.

In relation to broadband, the comment was made that there is no obligation to bring a fibre-optic cable to the islands. Let me make it crystal clear that under the national broadband plan contract, the default is fibre to every home regardless of location. The contractor must justify why fibre is not being used in a particular scenario. The standard offering at the moment to every home is 500 Mbps, which means that whether people are on an island or the mainland, they have to get a minimum offering of 500 Mbps. That is absolute in the contract. It will be difficult to provide that without doing it through a fibre-based technology.

The offering being delivered to every home at the moment is 10 GB. Potentially, any home connected to the national broadband plan fibre cable today can, if they are willing to pay for it, get a 10 GB service. I would expect people on the islands to get the same opportunity to avail of that if they wished. That can only be provided through a fibre solution. We as a committee will hold the Department of Rural and Community Development and the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications to that commitment.

I will address my questions to Mr. Walsh on the area of energy. It is an issue close to my heart. When I was appointed Minister with responsibility for energy in 2016, one of the first challenges we had to deal with was the loss of electricity supply to Inis Oírr and Inis Meáin.

I was on Inis Oírr and saw first hand the challenges that were there and the generators that had to be brought in. As Minister, I insisted, against the advice, on Ireland being one of the signatories to the EU clean islands initiative. Thankfully, and Mr. Walsh and Ms Moran referenced it in their initial contributions, there is a great opportunity to develop this initiative with the support of the European Union. Will Mr. Walsh elaborate on what is happening on the islands with regard to this initiative? What type of technology is being used? What are the opportunities there for the other islands?

In this context it is also important when we look at electricity supply to our islands that we do not just look at the supply coming from the mainland out to the islands. With the development of our offshore renewable energy potential there will be a significant amount of supply coming from the islands back to the mainland. It is imperative that we look now at developing the cable network to our offshore islands that has the capacity to supply the mainland rather than, which was historically the case, only supplying the demand on the islands. I would appreciate it if Mr. Walsh could come back on this.

Mr. John Walsh

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak about this. It is very close to our hearts in Comhdháil Oileáin na hÉireann. We believe the islands will be excellent test beds for energy. We are now on the second clean energy for EU islands team. The first team ran its three-year contract and there is now a new team. We did a lot of work with the team on the first round. On the west Cork islands we had a number of webinars in 2020 to get the seven west Cork islands to work together. We are working on this at present. It brought a partnership together and a focus on the islands. The Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland worked with us as did the energy staff of Cork County Council. There was also the clean energy for EU islands initiative. When the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland or the council sees a European partner involved, such as clean energy for EU islands, it is easier for them to step up.

Søren Hermansen is the manager of Samsø Energy Academy on Samsø Island in Denmark. This island is seen as the energy island of Europe. Søren Hermansen is seen as one of the leading advocates for renewable energy in the world. He has said that while in the past making islands sustainable was viewed as a good thing, it is now an imperative. The cost of energy is soaring as we all know. We have to bring this to islands. We work with the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland on the technology. It is a great organisation to work with. It has fabulous people who know what they are doing. We did an energy management plan and we were supported by an energy mentor to do so.

On the EU side, we applied to the clean energy for EU islands secretariat. Instead of a cash payment it provides experts in procurement and various technologies. The first thing we have looked at is houses. We did a range of BER studies on houses on the island in recent months. We are taking the information we got from this to retrofit houses. The grants have come at the right time. To make it justifiable on islands, we need that extra bit to make it work.

We have a dry dock on Bere Island that takes in boats up to 50 m for maintenance and painting. It has come on board with us as a partner. It involves the entire community between local authorities, energy and the business community. UCC is also involved, as is the clean energy for EU islands initiative. We need this mix working on the islands. It is not something one organisation can do on its own. The dry dock is looking at a combined heat and power plant. It has put 15 MW of solar on the roof and it will do more of this.

We are also looking at wind and technology whereby heat can be taken from the sea through a heat pump. These are the technologies we are looking at. There is talk of electricity cut-outs over time. We are looking at microgrids. It was great to get the support of Samsø Energy Academy. It has done studies on microgrids. There are microgrids on the marina on Samsø of a type that suit a small island having its own grid.

I agree with the Chair that we should not always be looking at bringing in power. We should also be looking at sending power out. The cable system going to the islands is out of date. It has to be upgraded if we are to be allowed to produce power and sell it the communities. I visited the Orkneys and islands in Denmark and Sweden that sell power. There is one community in the Orkneys that sells power and the revenue pays for an out-of-hours ferry service and various projects on the island for community and leisure facilities. It is a great way to sustain the islands. If there are any questions I would be delighted to answer them.

Chairman

We are discussing that here and committee members think the income generated could pay for an air service.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I thank the witnesses for their opening submissions. The numbers are stark and jumped out at me, particularly the reduction in population from 34,000 to 2,627. The root of the problem with getting representation is the small number of people that live on the islands and how fragmented the islands are across local authorities and in different areas. It makes it difficult to make the case stand up. In a previous session someone, and it could have been Mr. Walsh, recommended that committee members watch "Inis Airc - Bás Oileáin" on the TG4 player. I took that recommendation. It sets out in the starkest terms the challenges of maintaining life on the islands. It is well worth watching.

A number of issues jump out and I will start with energy. It may be the issue that sits most comfortably with me. There are opportunities. Mr. Walsh spoke about microgrids. I am interested to know whether he is looking at vehicle-to-grid options to run power. Storage is always a problem with renewables because of the intermittency. One thing the islands have plenty of is wind but perhaps not always. Are the witnesses looking at vehicle-to-grid storage? It would mean that if there were a couple of electric vehicles, EVs on the islands, they would provide that kind of backup. The islands should be energy exporters but the most valuable thing they can do is keep the energy on the islands as much as possible. This is the greatest value-add. It is something I am interested in hearing about. The Chairman referenced the potential for e-health. There is potential for e-health, e-pharmacy and e-prescribing.

To come back to housing, at a previous meeting the witnesses referenced the housing approach on the Scottish islands. I had a look at this. I am not sure it directly maps but certainly there is an awful lot that could be learned. The idea that jumped out at me was the empty homes officer. I started by speaking about fragmentation. Each individual council has somebody in its housing department that looks at this. Would it make more sense to have somebody in a role that looks at all of the islands in terms of housing rather than it being split into the various councils? Would this be of benefit?

We are here to discuss this in the context of the Our Rural Future document.

I think there are three policies that sit together like the legs of a stool: Housing for All, Our Rural Future, and Town Centre First, which was launched a few weeks ago. Perhaps there is an opportunity to apply that thinking to the islands. The fact that the policy is entitled Town Centre First seems to exclude most of the islands. That whole structure of building town teams could be easily replicated with island teams. I imagine they probably already exist on each of the islands. I wonder if that could be a way for the islands to access the type of support that is going to be available in Town Centre First, particularly the support of a town centre officer, which is going to be a key role within the Town Centre First structure at a council level. Perhaps that is something that would be useful for the organisations represented to pursue in order to make a bit of elbow of room in the Town Centre First policy so that they can access that level of supports. Certainly, the community networks are already in place. It would be a shame if that third leg of the stool in terms of rural redevelopment was missed out on because islands do not necessarily have town centres.

Chairman

Does Ms Moran wish to respond or does she want to refer to another witness?

Ms Aisling Moran

I thank the Deputy for his comments and questions. Perhaps Mr. Walsh and Mr. Murray can respond.

Mr. John Walsh

We are looking at using the energy on the islands. Our plan, first and foremost, was to use the energy on the islands. Thinking about it, if we are producing energy and we can offer people living on the islands cheaper energy or if we can offer businesses cheaper or free energy if they set up business on the islands, it would be a great way to attract new people and businesses to the islands. That was one of our aims. On electric vehicles, I know that over the last number of years electric buses have been used on Cape Clear as part of the Local Link scheme. It has been very successful. It is very good for the environment and it avoids the hassle of brinGing petrol or diesel to the island, which is great.

We were very happy to see, under the CLÁR funding announced last week, that there is now a scheme for islands to purchase electric vehicles for community use. As part of that scheme, funding is also available for PV panels or some technology to produce electricity. That is going to be an excellent scheme for the islands. They are the type of schemes that we look for. We are delighted that the Department introduced that scheme after consulting with islanders about it. To answer the Deputy's question, yes, we would be delighted to look at all sorts of technology for the transport system, especially green ferries. The Danish Government ran a competition for people to come together to develop a green ferry. We are looking at green ferries on the islands. We are actually looking to do a test case at the dry dock that I mentioned previously. We are looking to build a small electric ferry and perhaps a small electric potting boat for fishing. There are a lot of benefits coming down the line with renewable energy for the islands. We just have to be set up and ready for it.

Mr. Simon Murray

In the general context of the conversation so far, it is important to bring it back to something the Chairman mentioned. He referred to his visit to Inisbofin, which was longer ago than we care to remember, as we met up when he visited the island. I showed the Chairman the shoe box that was our health clinic, the disgraceful clinic that it was. I must say that the same clinic is still there today. We got a small bit of money to do it up because asbestos was discovered in the ceiling. Why do things like that take so long? Planning permission was granted for a new clinic, which was allowed to run out by the HSE. We are now shopping around for another site. Going back to the housing issue, when the Chairman visited the island, there was a turnkey property up for sale but the council would not purchase it. Why can the council not buy a turnkey property and house people immediately rather than going down the planning route? Excuses are made about trying to find funding and the house never gets built. It is a never-ending story. There is a touch of Groundhog Day in some of the conversations we are having. As islanders and representatives of islanders, we have been saying many of the same things for a long time now. We are looking for ongoing solutions to these problems.

I am delighted at what the Deputy said about the fibre-optic broadband and that it is the preferred option. My fear is that they will find every excuse in the book to tell us that they cannot manage it for some reason. However, as the Deputy is aware, fibre-optic broadband is the solution. Broadband through wireless will always have its limitations, it its capacity, first and foremost, and under also under difficult weather conditions. What we are trying to achieve here in the main, and the expectation at this stage, which may be an expectation that is wrongly held on our behalf, is that when we are dealing with the islands division or any bodies that have a responsibility over the islands, including the Minister and Ministers of State and everybody, there is a grasp of the understanding or a wish to grasp that understanding of island life and the difficulties and costs that are associated with it. The question is whether we want people to continue to live on the islands or not. If we do, there is a hidden cost from the State's perspective. It will take funding to continue life on the islands, but you could argue that about any way of life across the country. Our case is unique, because what is the option? Looking at our neighbour island of Inishark, it was depopulated in 1960, as were many islands up and down the west coast. Reference has already been made to the population collapse and how shocking that is. At the last meeting I recommended that members watch Bás Oileáin "Death of an Island". For anyone who has not seen it, I strongly recommend it, just to give some hint of what it is like for life on an island to end. We are in the position of trying to keep islands alive. It is a documentary about what happens when life on an island comes to an end. It is something that needs to be in the mindset of those in Government authorities of any description in relation to trying to help. The objective is to ensure that it does not happen again. I would hope that that mindset is there and that there is a willingness to help the islands, and to keep the populations alive on the few that are left. Once they are gone, they are gone forever.

Ms Aisling Moran

I thank the Deputy for his questions and for the information he provided. There is huge potential with e-health. One of the best documents that has come out of Government in recent years is the 2017 document on primary care on the islands which was produced after a huge HSE consultation. It has been slow in its delivery. However, on the west Cork islands, a health forum has been set up by the HSE and there is movement on that. The areas that we are focusing with the west Cork islands are e-health and emergency management planning. This touches on one of the other topics raised by the Deputy, namely, fragmentation. We seem to be moving at a bit of a quicker pace than some of the other regions. As Comhdháil Oileáin na hÉireann, we would like to see all islands move forward and progress on these kind of issues at an equal level and pace. One of the things that is so good about the primary care document is that the consultation was very detailed. A consultant was sent out to each island and an implementation plan was also developed. There seems to be a budget to back up what they are doing at the moment. We welcome the progress made on e-health. As the Deputy has said, it will make a difference in areas such as prescriptions and ways of delivering different services. One of the concerns of islanders is that the e-health programme should not replace the local nurse or doctor. It never can. The HSE has stated that the nurses and doctors need to be physically present indefinitely. However, e-health can offer a greater range of services to the islanders.

On the issue of fragmentation, in terms of the housing, it is a new and welcome idea. These conversations are good for us gaining information from the members' knowledge in terms of a vacant housing officer post and also in terms of the Town Centre First policy.

Maybe we can look at creating an island centre first document or some way of adapting that to suit the islands' needs. We are very grateful for that and will take it away and touch base with the committee afterwards.

We saw through the Leader programme that when the islands are treated together, we do really well. There are nuances but a programme dealing with all the islands together works well. In previous Leader programmes there was a dedicated lot for the islands and we saw great delivery and a high level of funding drawn down. Unfortunately in the last Leader programme these lots were broken up into regions with different county councils. Luckily for three of the islands a company that dealt specifically with islands won the tender but in one of them it did not. It broke up the funding and the islands did not access as much money. We are requesting a single lot for the upcoming Leader programme. We have seen that it works better in every area, be it agriculture, marine or housing, if the islands are dealt with solely by a specific person who gets a better understanding of it. The same is true for the social inclusion and community activation programme, SICAP, which is delivered on the Cork islands. It is a great programme. It is not a high level of funding but it definitely increases the standard of living really well, giving additional access to education and programmes that enhance quality of life. An islands SICAP programme or lot would be very welcome. If we can keep things together for all of the islands we do a little bit better out of it. We may not have looked into applying that to housing. We never know what will come out of the report but it is something we need to consider and I welcome Deputy Ó Cathasaigh's thought on it.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Housing can be divided into two issues. There is local authority housing and the issue of planning. The quickest way we can deal with planning is through the rural housing guidelines that are to come out soon. We should take that up with the Minister. On the islands, unless they own a house already, permanent dwellers should be considered to have what is termed a housing need for planning purposes. That should apply across all islands and local authorities. The local authorities have to work within the national guidelines so if we do it nationally, even though there are different plans for each county, it would have to be incorporated. It could be done within existing structures. We talk an awful lot in this country about changing structures but often we waste a lot of time changing them rather than making the existing structures work to deliver what we want.

We would support the proposal that Leader and SICAP be done as previously through Comhdháil na nOileán or on a bid basis but as an islands lot. That is important. On another matter, the biggest cost of putting cables into islands is the dredging cost. Would the witnesses agree that there should be a co-ordinated approach to provide extra energy connectivity through electricity cables, the fibre cable and in some cases even the water pipes at the same time? It should be possible to get the one dredger in, survey the whole thing, dredge the seabed, put the cables or pipe in and then have the job properly done. Central Government through the Department with responsibility for the islands is the only body that can put all of that together. Any necessary funding over and above what the agencies put in will be provided by the Government through that Department. That is what it was set up to do.

I was very interested in what Ms Moran was saying about local networks. There is only one way of transporting electricity off an island, through the cable. EirGrid, which controls the whole flow of electricity through the country, could arrange with islands that when it does not want island energy, rather than turning off the wind generators or whatever means of energy generation is on the island, the electricity generated could be stored internally on the islands in very simple ways. It could be used to charge all the electric vehicles on the islands in the down periods with very cheap electricity. Effectively they would have their own electricity if they controlled their own generation. It could be used to heat the water and houses in winter by storage at times when the island had literally free electricity and when it is a choice of turning off the wind generators because they do not need the energy on the mainland or using it on the island.

I understand a pilot project is being considered on one of the islands for the use of hydrogen. That is a way of storing energy. I understand there is a project exploring the production of hydrogen from solar energy. We already have buses in the city here and in lots of places operating on hydrogen. The technology is going to develop quite rapidly. It is a possible future energy source for aircraft, ferries and other vehicles. If the islands controlled their micro-generation, they could export energy when they had surplus and the grid needed it and could also store energy on the island and have very cheap electricity. If we have to turn all the generators off they will just be sitting there doing nothing. This could provide for people to really dramatically reduce their heating and transport costs. The other big advantage is that very little would have to be brought on to the island in the form of diesel, kerosene or petrol compared to now.

Are the witnesses as shocked as I am by the reply a Minister gave to a parliamentary question I tabled which suggests the islands are not automatically included in the 20% reduction in public transport costs? I would have assumed the islands would be at the top of the list for that since people cannot get in and out except by public transport. I would have assumed air and ferry fares would automatically drop by 20% on 1 April. It seems like an early April fool's joke that it was not automatically included in the decision. I suggest to the Chair that we write to the Minister after this meeting and demand that there is equity of treatment for islanders in this case as there will be for all the rest of the people in the State.

Chairman

When Mr. Walsh comes back in, related to what Deputy Ó Cuív has just said, I recall a number of years ago a pilot being done with Glen Dimplex quantum storage heaters. They allow for electricity in and electricity out and can be controlled remotely. They require broadband as well, of course. It might be an issue worth exploring, however, in terms of providing storage on the islands in specific heaters in everyone's own homes. It might be a unique way to manage the excess electricity.

Mr. John Walsh

On the technology that exists at the moment, since we did our energy plan there are houses here that have a PV system on their roof and there is a kind of brain that controls it. The first thing it will do is power the house during the day so people can use their fridges, televisions or whatever.

It would then go out and charge the battery storage for the night and if there was an electric car, it would also charge that. There are now two or three people on the island using that system. For example, to go to Cork city from Bere Island, which is 85 miles each way, it is €2 or €3 to run an electric car but it is free from the sun. That technology is definitely there and hydrogen is coming down the line. I am aware of the projects that are going on in the Aran Islands and a number of islands throughout Europe are involved in that, including Rathlin Island. It is great to see that. The islands are great as test beds and we will all learn from the work they are doing. Hydrogen is a small bit off yet but there are other solutions. We see on other islands that at night they pump water up on the cheap electricity and let it down again in a kind of hydro system, so that can work. Even with the heating systems, I know of houses here that have a heat pump heating system, again, all worked from the sun and from storing electricity in batteries. The battery technology is changing to make things better again for us. The future is definitely bright for electricity generation and I think it will transform the islands.

To back up the point made by Deputy Ó Cuív about transport, when we did our energy masterplan here, the ferry services and marine transport services that are used on Bere Island accounted for about 75% of our overall energy usage, which definitely backs up the point. We had that done by an independent consultant and it backs up the point about the transport fares.

On the point made by the Chairman, we met representatives of National Broadband Ireland, NBI, as Comhdháil na hÉireann, and they said that, yes, they are supposed to put fibre to the home and they will do that on the islands, so every house on the island will be connected to fibre, but the connection between the island and the mainland will not be fibre, or that is what they told us. That might need to be looked at because we have to have a continuous line of fibre to get the 10 GB which will be needed for the future.

Chairman

The committee is meeting with National Broadband Ireland in the coming weeks and we will be taking up that specific issue with it, as we have taken it up with the Department. We are aware of that issue. They are talking about a point-to-point wireless service from the mainland to the island. The committee is unanimous in its view that that should be done by a fibre-optic cable directly to the island, not by a point-to-point service. I call Mr. Murray.

Mr. Simon Murray

Most Deputies have touched on the haphazard approach and the lack of island proofing, which is a common theme from the perspective of Comhdháil na hÉireann. Two of the issues have been touched on, namely, the 20% reduction in travel, which, bizarrely, did not translate to the sea and air services to the islands, and also the SEAI retrofit grant, which did not take into account the associated costs. Considering the pressures on construction in this country and how hard it is to get people to do anything in the first place, this grant is going to make that even harder. We would start with the obvious thing, which is the contractors on the island, who are on the ground and are local, and there might be some chance of getting that work done, but they are excluded with the €1 million cap and the lack of a top-up to take into the consideration the extra costs of islands. They are two prime examples that have been touched on in this meeting where island thinking is not being used.

We need to be considered. It is the work of the islands division to make this part of everything that is happening through different grant systems and the availability of any regulations in regard to island living, to encompass the islands as one lot in the same way as with the LEADER programme. It needs to be thought of in the context of whether this works for the islands or whether there is a nuance that needs to be adopted to make this work for the islands. We need to have that thought process at the start rather than always having to come in at the end, which is what we are doing now yet again, to try to backtrack what has just been done to make it adaptable in the island context. It is frustrating for islanders.

We are looking at the islands development document which came out in 1996. It is now 26 years later and we are trying to do the next phase of that, to update it, so to speak, when that is a huge gap in itself. It has to be to the forefront of the thought process, where islands are dealt with in a lot capacity. Like the SEAI grant, like the 20% reduction, why was it not automatically understood that this is going to be a problem on the islands? If the contractors cannot meet the threshold, then it can be adapted and, as Mr. Walsh mentioned with regard to the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine grants, it does not take a lot to do it. Deputy Ó Cuív said it. We do not have to change all of the regulations and we just need to do a little bit of tweaking of the regulations that are there to bring them into the context of island living. That is across everything - across planning for housing, across the health situation and across what the Chairman, Deputy Naughten, knows in regard to communications and especially in regard to broadband.

If, through the work of this committee and the interdepartmental committee, that is driven home and that is one of the main legs of the stool that comes out of this whole conversation, namely, that islands are thought of in all of the processes in regard to anything that is required, that is probably the best achievement that can happen. We do not want to go back to another 25 years of always trying to remind people that, hello, there are islands off the coast, there are people living on them and we would like that to continue. That is kind of where we are at the moment. There has been a lot of work done, a lot of talk and then a big gap with nothing. Now, we need to get back to getting work done across the islands in every capacity. The powers that be, whether it is Government Departments or county councils - it does not matter where it is coming from – need to consider the islands in the context of whatever is coming forward at the time. Hopefully, we can drive that home, get that thought process going and get it to continue so islands will be constantly thought of and not forgotten again.

Chairman

It would be useful if, after the meeting, Mr. Walsh would furnish that information regarding the transport costs so we can include that in the correspondence that will be drafted on foot of this meeting in regard to the Government decision.

I want to put a final question to the witnesses. I do not expect to have an answer now but if Comhdháil could come back, I would appreciate it. The question concerns the utilisation of infrastructure when it is put in place. While this is not unique to the islands, there was a golden opportunity to exploit this on the islands and I do not know whether that has happened. My predecessor as Minister, former Deputy Pat Rabbitte, rolled out the high-speed broadband network to every single post-primary school in the country, including on the islands. I have spoken with some of the teachers on some of the islands and asked them whether the range of subjects has increased as a result, allowing for remote teaching. I accept it cannot be done in terms of practical subjects but it does provide an opportunity for students in second level schools on our islands to have a broader range of subjects. I have a particular problem in east Galway, where there are many small second level schools, and it limits the range of subjects that students can have. On the islands, with the introduction of high-speed broadband in the post-primary schools, have we seen an increase in the range of subjects being offered to pupils in the junior cycle and senior cycle where they are being taught remotely? The witnesses might come back to the committee with an answer to that in the not-too-distant future. From my experience, this has not happened on the mainland.

It needs to be driven by the Department of Education, working with the education authorities and the ETBs, to ensure a broader spectrum of subjects is offered to students in smaller second level schools.

Do the witnesses wish to make any final comments? No. In that case, I thank them for their contributions to this constructive and positive engagement. The joint committee will discuss in private session after this meeting a number of the issues the witnesses raised and we will follow those up. We will get back to them with the response we receive. The committee has also invited the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, and her officials to a future meeting at which we will raise these very points again, as well as the concerns the witnesses raised with us this morning. Furthermore, it is my intention, as Cathaoirleach of the committee, to arrange a visit to one of our offshore islands where we will hold a formal meeting. We will meet people on the ground on a number of the islands and get a first-hand feel for their concerns before we prepare our final report for the Minister. We hope this will feed into the Department's action plan for island development when it is published. I hope that will be done as soon as possible. Gabhaim míle buíochas leis na finnéith. I thank everyone for their time this morning.

The joint committee went into private session at 11.11 a.m. and adjourned at 11.33 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 23 March 2022.