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JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE CONSTITUTION debate -
Thursday, 21 Apr 2005

Family Issues: Presentations.

A schedule for the day's proceedings has been circulated to members. Is it agreed? Agreed.

Our first group is the Irish Episcopal Conference and Office of Public Affairs for the Archdiocese of Dublin. It is represented by Mrs. Mary Quinn, director of marriage education, ACCORD; Mr. John Farrelly, director of counselling, ACCORD; Fr. Paul Tighe, Office of Public Affairs, Archdiocese of Dublin and Fr. Timothy Bartlett, Office of Public Affairs, Irish Bishops Conference. Before we begin, I must remind visitors that members of this committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I now invite our visiting group to make its presentation. The committee has received the group's submission so rather than rehash that, I suggest the group make a shortened submission of between six and ten minutes. Committee members will then have the opportunity to ask questions.

Mrs. Mary Quinn

Fr. Tighe and Fr. Bartlett were responsible with others, including ACCORD, for researching and co-ordinating our joint submission. Our delegation has been formed around individuals with particular experience in or responsibility for the areas touched on by the review of the constitutional provisions relating to the family and for the formulation of the submission itself. The delegation welcomes this opportunity to discuss and clarify that submission with committee members.

As committee members will have noted, our submission focuses closely on the terms of reference for the constitutional review and does not elaborate on broader issues of social policy relating to marriage and the family. A number of general principles underline the specific points made in the submission. The most notable principle is that it is not the Constitution that creates or defines the family. Rather, in referring to the family based on marriage, the Constitution recognises an institution that is antecedent and superior to all positive law. Similarly, in recognising the family as the natural and fundamental unit of society, the Constitution expresses and affirms what the emerging consensus of research into this area confirms. There is much at stake in the discussion of the relationship between marriage, the family and society.

Stable marriages and families are primary sources of stability, life and love, which constitute a primary vital cell from which the rest of society derives so much of its cohesion and potential success. This principle is recognised in a wide range of national and international instruments. In this context, it is also important to consider the formative and aspirational nature of a constitution. Is is not appropriate for a constitution to seek to shape civil society rather than to follow sociological trends? These trends are sometimes transient and often complex. While they may require adjustment to other forms of legislation and Government policy, they are rarely so comprehensive or sufficiently definable to justify a change to the fundamental values expressed in a constitution. This problem is borne out by the comments of the Constitution Review Group when, having reviewed the provisions relating to family and marriage in many European constitutions, the European Convention on Human Rights and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, it concluded that none of them attempted to produce a definition of family in terms other than one based on marriage.

While we acknowledge that a diversity of forms of relationships now exist, which provide the fundamental human needs of care, intimacy and belongingness to varying degrees, it is also important not to lose sight of the fact that the family based on marriage is still a deeply valued institution in Irish life and, as our experience in ACCORD suggests, an institution increasingly aspired to and sought after. Those aspiring to marriage have a right, amid the many modern pressures on marriage and family life, to support for and protection of this fundamental institution of society. Therefore, we submit that it remains appropriate, necessary and in the objective interests of the common good for the Constitution to continue to guard the institution of the family based on marriage with special care. Such a commitment should not and does not prevent the State from seeking to offer appropriate support to individuals in other forms of family units. Rather, it acknowledges the established and antecedent nature of the particular institution of the family based on marriage.

The delegation's point and case was made very succinctly and clearly. I have a few queries. We know from the last census that there are approximately 80,000 cohabiting couples in Ireland and approximately 150,000 single parent families, 85% of whom are headed by single mothers. There are a growing number of same sex unions. It has been suggested to us in some of the submissions and some of our hearings, that if the constitutional provision relating to the family based on marriage is retained, other types of relationships outside the family based on marriage will be considered to be second-class relationships and those in them will be denied equal rights and fair play. Some groups focused on the rights of the child and stated that a child in any union other than marriage does not have the same status under the Constitution. I would like to refer to the case of Ennis v. Butterly in 1997, where a dispute arose between a cohabiting couple with a child. In that case, Mr. Justice Peter Kelly made a remark to the effect that if he were to recognise their agreement, which was in writing, he would be elevating it to the status of marriage and that he could not do so. Are not relationships outside marriage treated unequally? How should we deal with this? Should we preserve the constitutional protection of the family based on marriage but amend it to allow for other relationships that now exist because irrespective of whether we like it, society has evolved in the past 70 years? In 1937, statistics show that 3% of births were outside marriage, whereas today, the figure is 31.5%. Some people argue that legislation is not sufficient to deal with this social change. Most of the groups that have presented submissions to the committee have produced a range of reasons for changing the Constitution. Among the reasons cited were that children of non-marital relationships are being treated unequally or that other relationships are at a different level from marriage. How can we accommodate other relationships outside marriage, whether they are the result of marital breakdown, or are examples of cohabitation or single mothers?

Fr. Paul Tighe

If one looks at the equality argument, the fact that the Constitution may treat different forms of family units differently is not itself an argument against the constitutional protection afforded to marriage because it was asked whether there are differences that were worth preserving. Our submission works on the basis there is something very particular about the family based on marriage, that it offers particular advantages to the common good and society and that it is worthwhile for a Constitution to celebrate and protect that very distinctive and particular form of family unit. Difficulties will arise if the definition of the family is changed from that based on marriage. We addressed the previous work of the All-Party Constitutional Review Group, which attended to the family. It had——

The All-Party Constitutional Review Group is a different body and did excellent work but this is the first time this committee is addressing the issue.

Fr. Tighe

Okay.

The review group works independently of the Oireachtas while we are an Oireachtas sub-committee dealing with issues of family and so on for the first time.

Fr. Tighe

The group raised more substantive issues and recognised there would be difficulties in attempting to move away from a definition of the family other than one based on marriage. The group tried to recognise from statistics that there is a changing reality in Irish society and that different forms of family units are continually emerging. The group is attending to a difficult balancing act to which we should also attend.

One wishes to say there is something worthwhile in aspiring to protect the notion of family based on marriage while trying not to make life more difficult for people in other forms of family units. However, changing the constitutional definition runs the risk of removing the special position of the marriage-based family. We are examining the various arguments. I am not aware of the Ennis v. Butterly case or Mr. Justice Peter Kelly’s comments but legislative and judicial provision can support the rights of people in other forms of family units without changing the fundamental aspiration for a marriage-based family as presented in the Constitution.

Deputy Peter Kelly will now put some questions to members of the delegation.

Mr. Justice Peter Kelly has been on the Chairman's mind.

I was thinking of the Joint Committee on Communications, Marine and Natural Resources on which my colleague Deputy Peter Kelly sits.

The Chairman is spending too much time at the Four Courts.

It is early in the day.

I thank Mrs. Quinn and her group for this clear and concise presentation. On the last page of the submission it is made clear that the State should "guard with special care the institution of the family, based on marriage". The submission goes on to read: "Such a commitment ought not, nor does it, prevent the State from seeking to offer appropriate support to individuals in other forms of family units." The Chairman has made reference to these forms. Would our visitors have a difficulty if this support were enshrined in the Constitution or would they only be happy if it were enshrined elsewhere? They have said they do not have a difficulty with this support but do they have a difficulty with inserting it in the Constitution?

Fr. Timothy Bartlett

We have a difficulty getting an agreed definition if one wishes this to be located within the Constitution. There is another difficulty in the nature of a constitution in terms of what it reflects or tries to capture. The Constitution is a working legal document. We suggest that these other forms of relationships and their needs might be addressed more effectively in other forms of policy and legislation rather than in the Constitution since there is the difficulty indicated by the review group about how to define the array of other possible relationships in a way that is appropriate for a constitutional document.

Assuming that a form of words to accommodate this can be produced, do our visitors have a fundamental or practical objection to the recognition of other types of family units in the Constitution?

Fr. Bartlett

A question arises about how to do so, given the particular character of a constitution, without undermining the value captured in the present provisions based on its implications for society, its connection to the common good and so on that have been established by research across the world. Perhaps some of the others wish to speak on this.

Following on from this, how does Fr. Bartlett equate or balance the truth that the public narrowly voted in a referendum in favour of divorce approximately ten years ago? Does this constitutional amendment not shatter the pillar of marriage and the notion that marriage is a permanent bed of roses? There is substantial marriage breakdown and the number of divorces has increased significantly between the previous two census years of 1996 and 2002. Has this pivotal position already been rocked to its foundations by the existence of divorce?

Fr. Bartlett

Put simply, no. The people who entered marriages that ended in divorce did so with a sincere desire to have the benefits of marriage, stability and so forth. Those going through marriage difficulties actually benefit from the support expressed in the Constitution for the value of their commitment to this institution. I argue that the opposite is the case. Mr. John Farrelly of ACCORD may wish to speak about this and ACCORD's experiences in practical terms.

I do not wish to hog the meeting and every member wishes to speak but our task is a balancing act. We have been charged with this review of how to accommodate the other families that are not based on marriages. It is an important issue.

The family based on marriage has been the norm for generations in Ireland. An interesting point is made in a suggestion on page 2 of the submission that it is not the Constitution which creates the family or defines it, rather referring to the family based on marriage. Obviously, families based on marriage were the norm when the 1937 Constitution was written. This point has not been raised before.

One must recognise that there have been fundamental changes in the structure of families over the past 20 to 25 years and that other family units have been established. Is the bones of this submission a contention or belief that the needs and rights of other family units or formations can be catered for in legislation rather than a change in the Constitution?

Fr. Tighe

This is our fundamental point. We can cater for other family units through legislation and judicial activism without changing the basic and aspirational understanding of the marriage-based family.

Fr. Bartlett

Beyond this, we argue that legislation may have the flexibility and breadth to adjust over time to the particular forms of relationship and to be more comprehensive given that the agreed difficulty in finding a definition captures the reality as it exists at present.

When the Constitution was written, people were looking back into the past by the space of a generation or as much as 1,000 thousand years when marriage was the norm. However, there has been a greater change in the past 25 years than in the previous 500 in terms of the accepted norms of family formations. Does ACCORD think this necessitates examining the Constitution to address life as it is now, rather than as we would like life to be, or as family formation has been in the last 300 or 400 years?

Fr. Tighe

: One issue that emerges is an understanding of what is the Constitution. Our submission makes the presumption that the Constitution is not just there to regulate what happens. It also holds certain values that we aspire to as a society. The notion of the family based on marriage is something this society should aspire to, and if we encourage people to reach towards that there are benefits for society. This does not downplay all other significant contributions towards caring for children made by people in different units. There are certain supports that are available in the married family that are good for society and for children. The Constitution can aspire towards these.

Mrs. Quinn

The majority of couples still aspire to marriage, and the majority of people get married. From our work in ACCORD that is obvious. Marriage is on the increase. Couples aspiring to marriage look to the Constitution for support in their relationship.

Perhaps if we postponed the review for five to ten years the problem might be solved.

Mr. John Farrelly

We must be careful about portraying people as normal or abnormal. The Irish nation is good-hearted and respectful of everyone's situation. We must realise that marriage is part of our society. Although there have been changes in 500 years the same unit that held my grandparents and parents holds me and my family. For example, 30,000 people came to ACCORD in the last two years for marriage preparation. ACCORD provided 55,000 hours of counselling in the same period. People may view that as evidence that the institution of marriage is crumbling. I suggest that other factors have an influence, including the balance between work and life.

We did a study of 3,000 of our clients. Half of male respondents worked 46 hours per week and one fifth worked 56 hours. Under the working time legislation the figure should be 48 hours. These people are under pressure. A relatively small proportion of ACCORD clients own their own homes. Clients are under financial duress. Other factors put people under pressure. I am one of those people even though, with the help of the Government and the Family Support Agency, I have set up a service to deal with this. The position of married people has to be recognised and the Constitution supports this. It gives us the energy to have an input in society and to care for our children. I recognise the position of other family units but the position of the married family unit must be recognised in the committee's deliberations.

One of the concerns put to us was that because the Constitution is firmly focused on the family based on marriage other forms of family units are discriminated against. This has been reflected in High Court and Supreme Court judgments, including the Kilkenny incest case.

For the past few days I have thought about whether the Constitution is an aspirational document or an expression of existing values. There are many practical aspects to it dealing with the Comptroller and Auditor General and the colour of the flag. It is very detailed and much longer than most other constitutions. I do not accept that it is an aspirational document.

All children should be treated equally, but courts are treating children from married families and children from non-married families differently. Over the last two days the committee has heard many examples of how this affects children in foster care or children whose parents do not want them to have inoculations. As long as the welfare of the child is of paramount concern the Constitution must treat all children equally whether they are from marital or non-marital families. Does ACCORD think this should be reflected in the Constitution? If so, does this not undermine the special position of marriage? On page five ACCORD makes the point that if all families are treated equally, as suggested by the submission of the review group, there is no point in protecting marriage. If all children are to be treated equally I do not see why it would be necessary to protect marriage.

Fr. Tighe

I shall respond to the Deputy's point on aspirations. An aspirational document sets our foundation values and parameters on which the legislature works to implement. The courts have worked on that basis.

The joint submission by the Committee on the Family of the Irish Episcopal Conference and the Office of Public Affairs of the Archdiocese of Dublin quoted the view of Justice Murray that the constitution is a contemporary document. In 1937, the document was contemporary and reflected marriages of the day. At that time many marriages were arranged by matchmakers rather than based on love.

Fr. Tighe

The Constitution is making a statement about a notion of the family based on marriage. This is not a statement on the reality in 1937. It is about an institution across many societies and religions from an early time in history. People find great sustenance and support in the institution of marriage. It offers great support to children and to individuals. In underlining the value of the family the Constitution sends an important signal to policymakers, legislators and the Judiciary in interpreting the detailed provisions that follow from it.

Fr. Bartlett

Our submission states that it is deeply desirable that the Constitution afford legal protection to the rights of children. We must balance the autonomy of the family unit and the rights of the child. Is that best achieved by constitutional amendment, by judicial assessment of legislation, or other forms of legislation? A definitive legal opinion would be interesting. In our submission we quote the judgment of Mr. Justice Finlay Geoghegan in F.N v. C.O., a case from March 2004 which followed from a judgment by Mr. Justice Ellis, which suggests that the primacy of the rights of the child can be afforded by the courts based on their current understanding of the constitutional provision. The children’s ombudsman adopts a firmer position but also acknowledges that the courts should be able to apply the determination of the primacy of the rights of the child from existing legislation and the Constitution. While we are open on this, many nuances surround the possibility of including it in the Constitution.

I welcome the delegation. Deputy Andrews identified the issue for us as being whether we view the Constitution as a set of values to which we aspire or as an overarching protective human rights document for all people when we make decisions. Fr. Bartlett stated that we need to keep the protection of marriage as it is in the Constitution but all of the changes outlined by the Chairman have happened despite the fact that the Constitution is as it is. Is the Constitution doing what the delegation wants it to do and, if not, does this suggest it is an aspirational document that gives succour to marriage?

Many groups have come before this committee and put it to us that we should propose to change the Constitution to protect the different types of relationships we now have in society. Tomorrow we will hear from a group of gay Catholics. Although we have not heard the group yet I wish to put one or two questions that would be of concern to people who are Catholic and also gay. Is there any evidence to suggest that gay unions undermine marriage? What level of dialogue is there within the Catholic church with people who proclaim themselves to be both Catholic and homosexual? I know this is an area we have not touched on to date nor was it in the delegation's presentation but it is an area that other groups have raised and I would be interested in the delegation's response.

I thank the delegation for its thoughtful submission; perhaps the delegation should return when we have time to think more deeply on these papers. Listening to the debate phrases such as "marriage is an institution" and "a family based on marriage is the one to which we should aspire" come to mind. How do we achieve the common good to reflect new diverse units in society today? That is the position we are now in. Throughout the week I have been concerned that we would dilute the Constitution, but can we protect the welfare of the child without amending it? That is the dilemma. Knowing the Constitution has served us well in protecting society, if I thought we could do so through legislation, without affecting the fabric of society, I would promote the use of legislation in this case. I doubt that is possible in light of the existence of diverse units. I wish to hear Fr. Bartlett's comments on how we could reflect this in present day terms.

Fr. Bartlett

I am anxious to point out that we are not merely stating that marriage is an institution per se. We also state that objective research throughout the world shows that a family based on marriage between biological parents provides certain benefits for society. We also make the point that it is not just an aspirational institution for a certain value system, but has verifiable benefits for society. That is our concern in promoting and defending its protection and privilege in the Constitution.

The difficulty is how to define the family in any other comprehensive way to take account of the complexity and fluidity of social circumstances. It is important to note that we are also anxious that others outside that framework would receive rights, protections, care and support in an appropriate manner. The fundamental issue is whether the Constitution is the most effective or most appropriate place to do that.

Would the delegates also respond to Deputy O'Sullivan's questions?

Fr. Tighe

Deputy O'Sullivan raised a number of issues, including the notion that the Constitution is an overarching protective framework for human rights. We argue that strong families based on marriage safeguard human rights in particular ways and so are worth protecting.

On the issue of gay marriages weakening heterosexual marriages, the argument is not whether gay marriages should be allowed but whether they are possible. From time immemorial various religions have understood that marriage is a relationship between a man and a woman, with other elements core to that definition of marriage being exclusivity and an expectation of permanency in the relationship.

If one were to say that the institution of marriage would be opened up to gay people, the traditional notion of marriage would be redefined or abolished. That is our fundamental view on the issue of what marriage constitutes

What about giving constitutional protection without necessarily defining it as marriage?

Fr. Tighe

It is important that there is respect for the dignity of all human beings as citizens and that entitlement to have their rights protected is upheld. I am not sure if it fits the remit of the committee but to answer the question on dialogue within the church involving people who are gay and Catholic, it is fair to say there are ways in which that can happen informally. There are organisations within the church constituted and formed by people who are gay and Catholic and who are in dialogue with church leadership. Joint statements, such as a document from Cardinal Basil Hume in 1995 or 1996, have been issued. It has not yet happened as formally in our context.

I thank the delegation for its succinct document. I wish to follow up on a point raised by Deputy Andrews. One of the tasks we are charged with is whether there should be express constitutional protection for children. Page 12 of the delegation's original document states:

It is clear that the Constitution must afford legal protection for measures which are necessary to protect the rights of children. However the family unit must be allowed to retain its appropriate authority and autonomy. Whether this balance is best achieved by express constitutional provision or by judicial interpretation of the existing constitutional parameters remains to be seen.

It seems the delegation is trying to have it both ways. As we need help in understanding this, does the delegation think the rights of children should be expressly protected in the Constitution or should this be left to the courts?

Fr. Tighe

Our fundamental view is that in reality the rights of children are protected by their families in the majority of cases, and the family is in the best position to make judgments on the child's welfare. Of course unfortunate situations exist where other agencies must intervene when, for whatever reason, the child's rights are not upheld by the family. The State has been active in protecting children at risk within the family. One of the issues we are examining is how that is best maintained. One must try to strike a balance between not undermining the authority and legitimate autonomy of the family and parents with ensuring there is protection for children who are at risk. The Constitution sets the parameters for that. The real work revolves around the resources that are available to health boards, other authorities and social workers who are trying to provide for children at risk. The question centres on whether there are adequate care facilities for children at risk — that is where the detail lies.

The Constitution is important because it establishes whether there should be an express provision for the rights of children. Our view is that children's rights must be protected. Whether that is best achieved through the existing system — where we have un-enumerated but very important rights within the Constitution that the courts have been able to find and to protect — or whether it is necessary to insert an explicit provision, must be determined. We are aware that the committee is consulting the experts and we await the outcome of those consultations with interest. Our primary concern is to determine which method is most effective.

Fr. Tighe is correct in stating that most children are protected within the family situation. However, we have heard evidence of one or two cases where the court made a decision with which most normal people would disagree, where the rights of the child were not protected. I am referring in particular to the PKU case. Does Fr. Tighe think we should have express rights for children in the Constitution?

Fr. Tighe

When one looks at the PKU case, one sees that the court was attempting to declare that the matter was one the Legislature should deal with. The court was not going to oblige the parents to undertake tests unless the Legislature made express provision for that. The court was stating that the Legislature could protect children's rights in such cases. The final judgment was made in the context of the court believing that the particular child was not likely to be harmed by not having the test. However, I am not here to defend the decision in the PKU case.

If the judgment of the committee is that there is need for express provision in the Constitution for the protection of the rights of children, that is the route that must be taken. We would then have to examine how that can be balanced against the rights of the family.

On the subject of the PKU case, the point was made to the committee that if the case pertained to a single parent rather than a married couple, the court may have made a different ruling.

I join with my colleagues in welcoming the delegation and expressing our appreciation of the work ACCORD undertakes with families. Their work in family counselling is well recognised. I would like to follow up on the point made by Deputy O'Sullivan and ask the delegation about that section of the submission that deals with "appropriate supports". Would the delegation clarify what they consider to be appropriate supports in this context? If, for instance, a decision were reached to hold a referendum on the issue of gay marriage, as raised by Deputy O'Sullivan, would the delegation be neutral, opposed to or in favour of such an amendment?

Fr. Tighe

We would wait to see what the particular amendment was and all amendments would be examined carefully in their own contexts.

The submission refers to "appropriate supports" and I would be grateful if Fr. Tighe would identify two or three such supports.

Fr. Tighe

We are referring to welfare and child support payments for children and a whole range of supports that would be offered to all children, not just to children of marital families.

Would that include, for example, some legal or constitutional provision to deal with people who have particular problems? Would the delegation consider supporting that?

Fr. Bartlett

It brings us back to the nature of the Constitution, not only as an aspirational but a legal instrument and whether such issues require much more flexibility than the Constitution can afford. Also, the question arises as to whether the Constitution can adequately and succinctly capture the practical nuts and bolts of issues.

Does the delegation have a position, for example, on the legislation put before the Oireachtas by Senator Norris recently?

: In order to give some perspective, the Bill on civil partnership introduced by Senator Norris was a proposal to allow for civil unions for gay and lesbian couples, falling short of marriage. The thinking within the gay and lesbian community was that if the extra step towards marriage was taken, a referendum would have to be held, which would be divisive. Would the delegation support that legislation, which gives recognition to a partnership, whether for tax purposes, inheritance tax, stamp duty and so on? Senator Daly is asking whether the delegation would have any problems with the notion of civil partnership. Senator Norris made it clear that he was not referring to marriage, although at least one of the gay and lesbian groups that will be coming before the committee feels strongly that homosexual marriage should be permitted.

Fr. Bartlett

Obviously it would be a matter for consultation. We would prefer to give a much more considered response to specific proposals that would be made in that context.

As a general principle, however, one of the questions that arises is whether matters such as tax and inheritance could be addressed in other ways. Similar issues arose in the UK and Northern Ireland and there was a consensus among the parties that many of those matters can be dealt with through private agreements, private legal contracts and so on, or through policy adjustments, rather than through civil registration, marriage or higher forms of legislation, such as constitutional amendments. The question as to what is the most effective way of dealing with such matters remains constant. At the same time, however, we would be anxious to protect the institution of marriage, as required by the Constitution.

I thank the delegation for its submission. The Constitution is the ten commandments of the Irish people, it is their document and the paramount legal framework for the country. It must be remembered, when any legislation or issue arises, that the Constitution is the backbone of the entire Irish legal system and has served us well. The submission is very thought-provoking and the committee will give it due consideration when deliberating on this difficult and complex area. The committee is focused on its work and hopes that it will strike a fair balance when drawing up its final report.

Sitting suspended at 11.30 a.m. and resumed at 11.50 a.m.

: The committee will now hear from Foróige, represented by: Mr. Seán Campbell, chief executive officer; Mr. Séamus O'Brien, chairperson of the national council; Dr. Pat Dolan, NUIG policy adviser; and Ms Anne Marie Kelly, project leader. They are all most welcome. I remind visitors that members of this committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. I ask that mobile phones be switched off because they interfere with the sound system. As we have already received Foróige's submission, I ask that the delegates synopsise its important aspects within six to eight minutes.

Mr. Seámus O’Brien

I thank the committee for giving Foróige the opportunity to make a presentation today. I would like to introduce the members of our delegation. I am national chairperson of Foróige and a voluntary leader of a Foróige club in Knockraha, County Cork. Mr. Seán Campbell is Foróige's chief executive officer. Dr. Pat Dolan works in the child and family research and policy unit of NUIG and is Foróige's policy adviser on adolescent and family support matters. Ms Anne Marie Kelly is Foróige's project leader of the CRIB youth project and health cafe in Sligo and project leader of the south Leitrim neighbourhood youth project.

A principal objective of Foróige as stated in its constitution is to foster the development by young people of the knowledge, attitudes and skills necessary for effective living, especially in matters such as family life. This is a core element of Foróige's work.

Mr. Seán Campbell

Foróige has experience with young people aged ten to 18, including those who may be identified as at risk. We are primarily focused on the needs of young people. We work with families in the context of supporting young people in family situations. We believe that the family in whatever form it may take has a profound influence on the formation and development of characters, beliefs, values, loyalties and lifestyles of young people. The family needs the help and support of society in order to enable parents and children to develop their full potentials. Youth work can play a significant supporting role by helping to ensure that relationships within families are beneficial and growth promoting.

Support for young people and families should be available universally and when most needed. Universal supports should include a realistic guaranteed income for families; access to parenting programmes; access for young people to safe social activities; opportunities for young people to develop life skills and competencies which will enhance family life; after-school programmes; contact between young people and non-family caring adults in a community setting; and opportunities for parents and young people to contribute to community life. Almost all families experience difficulties from time to time. Those are more pronounced when a family lives in poverty or when other risk factors make them more vulnerable to breakdown and crisis. It is at such times of crisis and difficulty that Government needs to support young people and families. We believe that this support should be non-stigmatising and should be viewed as a natural structure. That includes the availability of family support workers and youth workers and individual work and support for parents and young people, which comes in the form of mentoring programmes, youth groups, family group work, parenting programmes and access to counselling and mediation.

Foróige believes that the State's role in supporting the family should be included in the Constitution. We believe that the Constitution should give rights to all parents and their children, irrespective of marital status. We believe that the rights of the children should be guaranteed in the Constitution in line with the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child.

I will speak about some specific examples of family support programmes in which Foróige is engaged. The first is one of Foróige's eight educational programmes — family and life skills — which has been used in Foróige clubs for the past 30 years. It focuses on the development of knowledge skills and attitudes which will enable young people to have positive relationships with their families. The second example is the Big Brother, Big Sister programme. It provides young people with a non-family mentor. It regularly supports one-parent families, although not exclusively. Big Brother, Big Sister is a mentoring programme which matches an adult volunteer to a young person. Its core assumption is that a caring and supportive friendship will develop and reinforce the positive development of the young person. Evidence shows that the Big Brother, Big Sister programme can play a critical role in promoting positive behaviour in key areas of young people's development, including improved relationships with their parents. Big Brother, Big Sister has been successful in America for the past 100 years, and has been extensively evaluated.

Foróige operates 11 neighbourhood youth projects nationally, one of which is the Springboard project. Neighbourhood youth projects are a community-based family support service, working with young people aged between ten and 18 years and with their families. These projects work with young people experiencing family, social, personal or educational difficulties, and they aim to enable and empower the young person or family to overcome, manage or deal with their issues. I manage the south Leitrim neighbourhood youth project, the CRIB youth project and the health café in Sligo town. The CRIB youth project contains aspects of neighbourhood youth projects, such as planned educational programmes, one-to-one support and parental support. It also provides additional recreational activities and health advice.

Dr. Pat Dolan

My role is to share with the committee some of the evidence base of the work that Foróige is doing, particularly in light of the task in hand, namely, the Constitution and the role of the family. The basic point is that everybody needs social support to survive. It is a basic part of human functioning. That is a key issue during adolescence for young people who have difficulties and for those who do not. A core function for the State is to ensure that young people have resilience and the ability to cope, and Foróige is interested in having an open policy and practice in that respect.

In research that I have completed over the last four years which was commissioned by Foróige, I examined the mental health, social support needs and life events of young people who have experienced difficulty. It might be surprising for the committee to know that, despite the myth that it is often peers who are the main source of support for young people, it was found that parents give a much greater and more expansive form of support, even for those young people who experience difficulties. By that I mean that parents were found to provide more emotional support, practical support and esteem support as well as more tangible support.

Parenting is a key function, and we often overlook the role of parents, even for young people who have been experiencing difficulty. Collectively, that tells us that the family has a key function in a young person's life. Research shows that Foróige's interventions are making a difference for young people. Those young people who have a degree of difficulty in their lives and who are experiencing the neighbourhood youth projects are showing particular evidence of a better coping capacity. I suggest that the role of the State is to ensure that young people are supported within the family context in which they live. That is an interest shared by Foróige. The evidence base is in place from the work that Foróige is doing and from its contribution.

The committee is well aware of the tremendous work done by Foróige with young people. It is laudable work, and we wish to put our recognition of that on the record. Foróige is primarily focused on young people. Does the delegation feel that the Irish Constitution, Bunreacht na hÉireann, under Articles 41 and 42.3, sufficiently protects the role of the child? Some groups who have spoken to us have said that the child should have a central role in society, irrespective of whether his or her family is based on marriage, a single mother, a cohabiting couple or whatever. Some groups have demanded that there should be a constitutional amendment to enhance the role of the child, irrespective of the marital status of the parents. Would the delegation support that call, or do they feel that the Constitution as currently worded is adequate?

Mr. Campbell

We very much agree that the Constitution should be changed to guarantee the rights of the child specifically in line with the UN convention which the State signed in 1992. There is a need for a constitutional change.

Like the Chairman, I welcome the delegation, particularly Anne Marie Kelly. I am well aware of the wonderful work that she and her team do at the CRIB Rockwood Centre on Rockwood Parade in Sligo. I urge her to keep up the good work. It is very pleasant to meet a delegation who are so definitive in what they say. The Chairman has asked the questions and the delegation has answered clearly.

Could the delegation make a written submission at some stage on precisely the wording that Foróige would wish to see in the Constitution? We have heard from members of many groups, some of whom have said that the Constitution need not be changed and some of whom have said that it should. Others have sat on the fence. It would be of considerable assistance to the committee if the delegation made a submission in writing, outlining the proposed wording it believes would help matters.

Mr. Campbell

Okay.

I, too, welcome the delegation. It is nice to get a group of people who are very definite about their role, in this case in youth development and education. I am sure that, given the times that we live in and the diverse nature of society, Foróige has a significant role in that area and in making interventions. Members of the group have been precise in answering direct questions. When asked whether they were in favour of amending the Constitution, they were definite. It is nice to have that clarity.

Having said that, the question is how to define that aspiration. Deputy Devins has already made a request for it to be defined in writing. The difficulty lies in getting the right wording to protect the child's welfare under the Constitution. The Constitution does not go far enough. I would be concerned that, by adding words to it, we might in some way reflect a different type of interpretation. We must do everything in our power to protect the welfare of children in light of today's diverse society. The rights of the child must be upheld. Does the delegation anticipate difficulties devising some wording for the new constitutional definition?

Mr. Campbell

It will take the collective brains of many constitutional lawyers to get it right. We would operate on the principle of what is in the best interests of the child and that should be the overriding principle that underpins whatever wording is in the Constitution.

Dr. Dolan

I suggest it is also about looking at the purpose of the definition. Apart from ensuring that the rights of children are paramount, there can be no ambivalence about this point by the State. The State has a responsibility to parent every child. Within that, however, it is about the notion of balancing needs and rights and this is a key function in society. If we do that correctly, it holds a good promise. Previous delegations may have talked about child protection, family support and so on. If one thinks about it, there is a strong connection between strong legislation backed by a strong Constitution, which in turn enables positive strong policy, which in turn provides funding to Departments, which in turn provides services, such as Foróige, to young people that they urgently need. We have run the risk of assuming that because many young people do not have problems, they do not have needs. Foróige is aware on a daily basis that many young people experience life events for which they need support. That support is often provided within the family but the support of outside agencies is also needed. There is a strong promise in putting good wording into the amendment.

I welcome the delegation and thank it for its presentation. Our job is to ascertain the views of the delegation. When we ask questions, we are not necessarily giving our own views. We are trying to seek information to help us form our opinion when we come finally to deal with all the submissions made.

Mr. Campbell was very forthright in his reply to Deputy Devin's question. Where specifically in the Constitution does the delegation feel the rights of the child are not protected?

Dr. Dolan

I am not saying they are not protected but since we signed the UN convention, that should be acknowledged and should be the basis of any rewording. The Constitution predates the UN convention. I am not saying the rights of the child are not protected but there is certainly ambiguity in some situations as to which would take precedence, the rights of the parents or the child in areas of conflict. Clarification is needed in that area.

In fairness to the delegation, you are probably not legal experts on some of the questions. It has been stated to us, and I think it is factually correct, that there have been a number of headline important court decisions which have hinted that the role of the child is not the central role, for example, the Kilkenny incest case and others. It appears not only from what the delegation has said that the Constitution is weak on the protection of the child.

Dr. Dolan

Following on from Deputy McCormack's question, the issue may be partly centred around the fact that there is not uniformity in terms of everything right down to how service provision is applied to children in need. If the Constitution is to be a driver in society there should be equal access and equal quality of service to young people. If I said to anybody in this room that I had a drug that had not been tried and tested, one would not use it. Yet in social interventions with children, youth workers are trying their best with limited resources. There is a trickle or a cascading effect from the Constitution right down to young people that needs to be considered. The Constitution must hold true for every child. Its weakness is in its implementation.

Does Dr. Dolan think that some of what he has said could be corrected by legislation rather than by an amendment of the Constitution?

Dr. Dolan

To reinforce what Mr. Campbell has said, there needs to be a clear declaration based on the rights of the child. The Deputy is correct. It also needs to come with strong robust legislation that has a good effect for children.

Mr. Campbell

To follow on from that, the recent legislation on children that has been implemented has followed the spirit of the UN Convention and in some contexts is ahead in its thinking.

Dr. Dolan

I can give one example of what I mean. In New Zealand one is legally bound to support the family as it is enshrined in the law. In this country during the 1980s and the 1990s, attention was drawn to child abuse and child protection.

Is legislation needed?

Dr. Dolan

Yes. Rights-based legislation for children is needed.

I compliment Foróige on its work. I am aware it had its genesis in an entirely rural area. I wonder what Canon Hayes would say if he were here today. The delegation is a good example of how an organisation can change with the needs of society. The way the organisation has developed reflects well the way society has developed. It has responded to that and should be complimented.

I wish to explore the issue raised by Deputy McCormack in a little more detail. As a philosophical principle, nobody can contest the best interests of the child. Dr. Dolan spoke about balancing the needs and the rights. The difficulty arises in the problematic cases. We had a recommendation yesterday that there would be certain circumstances where there would be an intervention, whether by the State or somebody else, on behalf of the child. There was even a suggestion that a child from a marriage union could be offered for adoption; in other words, if everything broke down. The difficulty about that, and I expressed it yesterday, is that brings us back to the time when children were sent to industrial schools on the word of the local parish priest. The question is how to achieve the balance we all want to achieve within the framework of the Constitution. We can do certain things under law but if we institutionalise the rights of the child, a difficulty will arise unless they are equal to all other rights. Can the delegation resolve the conundrum?

It is hard to know what——

It is a question of whoever it happened to be, whether it was some eminent person in the local rural society. I do not know if I have expressed the difficulty adequately.

While the delegation is thinking on that, I invite Senator Finucane to ask his question.

The question I wished to ask has been asked already but I will make a general observation. I am aware of what Foróige does and I am glad to meet the group as I have never met the people involved. In my area there is a very successful Foróige club in Ballyagranin County Limerick. What I admire is the adult participation in trying to sustain it in a rural area. As we are aware, given the lack of volunteerism, it is difficult to get people involved. I was particularly struck by the statement made by the delegation that growing up is not easy today. I digress but I must make the point. In many of the larger urban areas, for example, where I live in Newcastle West, we hear of much about vandalism, anti-social activity and so on. How are Foróige clubs fostered or developed in rural communities? Is there still a vacuum which somebody should fill? Youth clubs often start off with well-meaning people who try to organise at local level but have nobody with an overarching role to guide them. I appreciate what Foróige is doing and there is probably much more it could do.

Mr. Campbell

With additional resources there is much more we could do. Foróige has grown and responded to the needs of young people. It now has a variety of responses, including Foróige clubs which would have been the core response, but it is only a small part of the organisation. We have a special project in Newcastle and five or six different projects run by professional youth workers in Limerick. It is about trying to support the community in helping to care for its young people by developing recreation facilities, clubs and educational opportunities that will help the young person grow and develop.

On the difficult question about the balance between the rights of the child and the rights of the family——

That is the core aspect.

Mr. Campbell

That is the central difficult task for the committee but we believe there should be explicit rights for young people and children, and equal rights for parents.

Would the organisation enumerate those rights in the Constitution or leave it up to law to enumerate them and provide a general blanket, so to speak, in the Constitution?

Mr. Campbell

We would like to see it in the Constitution. That would give a strong leadership statement and a foundation for whatever services and laws may come from it.

Dr. Dolan

To answer the question in terms of the promise that holds, I gave the example of family welfare conferencing in New Zealand, which is part of the Maori culture, whereby the rights of the child and the family are essentially enshrined in the Constitution and the state is legally bound to support the child. The way that works in a child protection case, about which there is a major debate on whether care is the best placement for a child, for example, is rather than have the set of professionals make the decision the key people in the child's life are brought together — the aunts, uncles, neighbours and people who can help make a positive change in the child's life — to inform the decision. There is much evidence in the research to show that this is an effective and cost-effective way of the state intervening with children who are experiencing difficulty. It follows very much the ethos of Foróige, which is about balancing rights and needs but we must have very firm rights because everything flows from that. An argument could probably be made that the rights of children, if anything, need to be made more robust in the Constitution.

Thank you for a clear presentation. We will take your submission into consideration when we are in the process of producing our report. Thank you for coming before the committee.

Mr. O’Brien

Thank you for allowing us make our submission.

It is nice to see a man from Cork here. We will suspend for two minutes to allow the next group come in.

Sitting suspended at 12.23 p.m. and resumed at 12.25 p.m.

We will now hear a presentation from representatives of the group WITH-Cúram. We welcome Ms Catriona Lynch, president, and Ms Áine Uí Ghiollagáin, vice-president. Before we begin I remind our visitors that members of this committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. I ask those with mobile phones to ensure they are switched off as they can interfere with the sound system. We have been given the group's submission. I ask you to synopsise its important aspects rather than read out the submission in its entirety. We will then have a question and answer session.

Thank you, Chairman. I thank the committee for this opportunity to address its members. WITH-Cúram is a non-governmental organisation that seeks to lobby and protect the rights of parents and carers who wish to work full-time in the home in caring for their family members, be they children or elderly parents, handicapped relatives or whatever. We have been in existence for more than 22 years. We are very keen to restrict our remit this afternoon to the Article that deals directly with the rights of the woman in the home, without which the common good cannot be achieved. With this purpose in mind, I ask Ms Uí Ghiollagáin to summarise our main points. I will then conclude the presentation.

Ms Áine Uí Ghiollagáin

WITH-Cúram, an Irish NGO, seeks recognition at all levels for the unpaid work of parents and carers, including the recognition of the value of their work to the economy and society. Although there are gaps in the statistics on unpaid work in Ireland, the value of this work is estimated to represent the equivalent of between 30% and 50% of GDP. Many people are fully or partially reliant on recognition for their unpaid work to secure or improve income via the tax and social welfare systems.

Although census data on the work of parents, carers, community volunteers and farm support workers is not available, we know that currently a total of 558,500 people, including 553,300 women and 5,200 men, are on home duties on a full-time basis. These people are very keen to have their contribution recognised at constitutional and all other levels. Professor Gabriel Kiely of the UCD Family Studies Centre has estimated that the annual economic contribution of the average home-maker is the equivalent of €23,540.40, based on 2004 figures.

Since WITH-Cúram made our initial written submission there have been some developments that are relevant to the recognition of unpaid work. The first is the reaffirmation of the UN's Beijing Platform for Action. The Irish Government has reaffirmed this via the Luxembourg Presidency of the EU. This platform for action calls for recognition of the contribution of women at all levels, including women's unpaid work.

We also have the results of the CSO Census 2006 pilot survey. Voluntary work will be included but as the draft currently stands, unpaid child care and housework will not be included in Census 2006. WITH-Cúram requested the inclusion of unpaid work in Census 2006 and submitted a suggested formulation. The CSO included one question on unpaid child care and housework and another on voluntary work in the pilot survey in a different format to that suggested by WITH-Cúram. The report noted that there were difficulties with many of the new and revised questions, including the question on unpaid child care and housework. In all other cases, however, reformulating the wording of the new and revised questions resolved the difficulties. No explanation has been given as to the reason unpaid child care and unpaid housework could not be included in a different formulation.

The ESRI has been asked by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform to undertake a scoping study for a time use survey that would collect data on a variety of activities, including unpaid work. That is a recent development but, unfortunately, I do not have any further information on it.

For WITH-Cúram, the constitutional recognition of unpaid work is the basis on which we most often make arguments for practical recognition and support for unpaid workers. In the absence of data on unpaid work and its continued exclusion from census data, constitutional recognition is often the only basis on which we are able to make successful arguments. WITH-Cúram notes that in the absence of data on unpaid work, it is impossible for Government to carry out cost-benefit analyses of policies in the area of care. This is an incredibly important issue at present because we are discussing long-term care. An interdepartmental group is discussing long-term care and supports for child care.

I move to consideration of Article 41.2°. Does it assign a domestic role to women and seek to exclude men from caring work or does it recognise women's unpaid work and provide economic protection for mothers? Does it extend to recognising men and allow unremunerated workers to vindicate their rights?

In WITH-Cúram's written submission, we refer to judgments by Supreme Court judge, Mrs. Justice Susan Denham, and the Chief Justice, Mr. Justice Murray, which interpret these articles in the latter fashion. Attempts made by the Attorney General to argue the former were unsuccessful in the O'G v. Attorney General case in 1985. WITH-Cúram is of the opinion that such judgments show that Article 41.2° is being interpreted in a positive fashion; in other words, that it provides positive protection to unpaid workers regardless of gender, and that it is not being interpreted in the courts as assigning a domestic role to women or excluding men. Mrs. Justice Susan Denham’s explanation clearly states that from her point of view it is about recognising women’s unpaid work.

Despite the clear support in UN conventions and agreements for the recognition of women's unpaid work, few nations have explicit constitutional recognition for the unpaid contribution of women, or make an attempt to provide economic protection for mothers based on their unpaid work.

A deletion of Article 41.2° would be a retrograde step. It could have negative consequences for unpaid spouses in the event of marital breakdown and practical recognition of all who undertake unpaid work. Any proposal for modifications to Article 41.2° should not result in a loss of recognition or the weakening of protection for unpaid workers. Parents, carers, volunteers, farm spouses, homemakers all want their active contribution recognised. The Taoiseach stated that this process was to "improve the rights of mothers, fathers and children".

Unremunerated workers would like improved recognition and protection under the Constitution and elsewhere, specifically the inclusion of the value of their work in parallel GDP accounts; the inclusion of questions on unpaid child care, housework and farm support work in the census; questions on caring and voluntary work to ask the number of hours spent on tasks; more research into valuing and supporting unpaid work; the inclusion of a heading "unremunerated worker" in EUROSTAT and ILO statistics for the active population; legislative and statutory protections for unremunerated workers based on their work — similar to employment legislation; a structured method of access to income, social welfare protection and pension for unremunerated workers; and the inclusion of unremunerated workers in relevant policy development and implementation. I give an example in the presentation of good and poor practice in an Irish context. Unremunerated workers would also like the preferences of those who depend on unpaid care and voluntary work to form a key aspect of policy development and implementation; the inclusion of unremunerated workers under the Equality Act; recognition for parents and carers in tax and social welfare systems in a reasonable and meaningful way; the implementation of the European Parliament's Bastos report on reconciling professional and family life; and the implementation of the Beijing Platform for Action and CEDAW, including the suggestions for recognition, implicit and explicit, for unpaid work.

We also propose a wording we would like inserted to improve constitutional protection. If accepted, Article 41.2.1° would read:

In particular, the State recognises that those who care for dependants within the home give to the State a support without which the common good cannot be achieved.

The Irish version would read:

Go sonrach, admhaíonn an Stát go dtugann an té a dhéanann cúram do chleithiúnaithe sa teaghlach cúnamh nach bhféadfaí leas an phobail a ghnóthú dáéagmais.

Further, we propose that Article 41.2.2° would read:

The State shall, therefore, ensure that those who care for dependants within the home shall not be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour to the neglect of those duties.

The Irish version would read:

Uime sin, cuirfidh an Stát in áirithe nach mbeidh ar an té a dhéanann cúram do chleithiúnaithe sa teaghlach, de dheasca uireasa, dul le saothar agus faillí a thabhairt dá chionn sin ina ndualgais sin.

I will pass back to Ms Lynch.

I reiterate that our Constitution is a notoriously difficult one to represent. According to the data in the last census, well over 500,000 women are employed full time in the home, not to say anything of the thousands of men employed full-time in the home in the care of dependants.

In addition to those people, connected to them are their spouses, partners, children and relations who are all affected by the recognition they are given in the Constitution. It is our considered understanding that the Constitution reflects the ethos and the general ideals and aspirations of the people of Ireland. We believe it is a good thing to continue that and that to do otherwise would be seriously detrimental to the psychological and emotional well-being of people who are employed full time in the home. In layman's language it would be a bit of a backhander to those who have spent their life's work never asking for any remuneration, foregoing the benefit of an income should they have chosen to work outside the home and taking on the chin the extra additional economic cuts they bring on themselves in the full recognition that the work that they do is worthy and worthwhile and which they deeply believe is for the betterment of their children and their family.

In addition to rearing my family for the past 24 years, I have been a constant volunteer member of the local "meals on wheels", helped out in the local charity shop and run the school library. Two years ago when my youngest child started school full time, I was wooed back into teaching part time. To do this, I had to forego the "meals on wheels" and the voluntary work I did in the local junior school for the library, in respect of which somebody had to be employed to replace me at the expense of the school. I have decided after two years that I will retire, return to work full time in the home and again take up voluntary work.

People who work full-time in the home to care for elderly parents, relations and handicapped children are unremunerated and if that work-care is taken from them, its absence will be more than visible in the additional cost to the Exchequer of the work of female and male carers in the home. We have a good system. We have people who work hard and ask for nothing except the recognition of a job well done. We need the committee to ensure that this article is retained in the Constitution. We accept that we must move with the times and, therefore, agree the wording needs to be changed. We have given the committee the outcome of our deliberations. However, it is crucial that, as a cornerstone of our understanding and legislation, we have at the heart of our Constitution a recognition of the work that has been done down through the years and continues to be done by a vast number of our population. If that is not there, it will undermine such work, the understanding of family and the benefits we all have reaped and continue to reap as a result of people being recognised for working full-time in the home.

The representatives have succinctly and clearly made their case. I thank them for their proposed amendments in English agus as Gaeilge. Apart from the amendments suggested which are worthy of consideration and will be considered by the joint committee Ms Uí Ghiollagáin also appears to say that if the worst came to the worst, she would prefer to see Article 41.2 which gives the woman in the home a special status and protection retained rather than have any diminution or dilution of that role.

Second, tá Gaeilge go flúirseach agat. There is a discrepancy in the definition of "family". In the Irish version it is "an teaghlach", a broader definition that incorporates grandparents, perhaps a bachelor brother and so forth, whereas the English definition is narrower and tight. Does Ms Ui Ghiollagáin have a view on which is the more appropriate?

Ms Uí Ghiollagáin

We agree that teaghlach is definitely broader than the interpretation given to it in English as a nuclear family. However, it has been interpreted in a limited way. Whatever is included in the Constitution will be interpreted. I am surprised that more people have not taken cases to seek recognition of the broader definition using that word.

Ms Ui Ghiollagáin mentioned other important areas such as care of the elderly. Another group which came before the joint committee, Foróige, pointed out that it was increasingly difficult to get people to do voluntary work. CoAction West Cork in Bantry in my constituency was a voluntary group 15 or 20 years ago but is now professional. I am not sure if the services are as good. The system is changing. I admire Ms Ui Ghiollagáin decision to give up work to remain with her family and get involved with Meals on Wheels and so forth. Would her definition of "teaghlach" incorporate the elderly grandparent?

Ms Uí Ghiollagáin

What we say is cleithiúnaí — an té a thugann cúram do chleithiúnaí. That would include all those under the wing, as it were. It would cover all family carers and parents, even if one is replacing from within the family. When the Department of Social and Family Affairs is devising its policies, grandparents are called in. However, they need a little more support and respite but they cannot buy it on their pension. Now the Department is examining ways of remunerating grandparent care in order that the grandparent is enabled to look after the children in a reasonable way and get the extra care that they would buy in on the ground.

We are suggesting that we go around this. If one says the child or the person in need of care has these needs and ensures every person who is looking after the child can access income or other services and supports, one will not have to worry about the grandparents, the aunts, the home carer and so forth. If one focuses on the person in need of care and ensures all those who potentially could care for him or her have a way to access income, supports, pension and social welfare, one will not have to worry about finding a way to fit in all these groups. It would allow the system and society more flexibility.

I welcome the members of the delegation and compliment them on bringing forward the wording of what they seek to achieve. Cómhghairdas freisin é sin a rá i gach teanga. Do they accept, however, that what they are trying to achieve could be achieved in a budget? In other words, if those caring for people in their homes were adequately compensated in all cases, the delegation would achieve its objective. The same applies to child benefit. In the case of young people, they wish to protect the compensation for those who work full-time in the home. There are over 500,000 people, mainly women, working full-time in the home. Could this not be achieved more simply in a budget?

I am aware of what the delegation is seeking to achieve and nobody questions its benefit. It would be great for the community. The longer elderly people are kept in the community, the better it is for the community and the people themselves. If adequate compensation was available, it would allow a person to work full-time in the home. Could this not be achieved by a budgetary measure which would not even require legislation? If it had to be copperfastened, it could be done through legislation without changing the Constitution.

Ms Uí Ghiollagáin

We probably could consider methods of remunerating those who are parenting and caring within the home through the social welfare budget. Two points can be made. Although it would be more expensive, it would be possible to save money on the health care budget because much of that budget goes on supporting people in long-term institutional care. The O'Shea report addresses this issue and comes to clear conclusions on page 100. It points out that Government subsidies of institutional care options have drawn people into them. Once an institution is subsidised people can no longer afford not to use it. Therefore, everyone goes to the institution, causing the budget to increase. That is one of the problems with excluding care options from consideration of cross-benefit analysis. One is choosing something that may cost much more down the line.

The ESRI conducted a study of what it would cost to have Denmark style social welfare provision in Ireland. It came to the conclusion that it would result in an increase of 11% on both the lower and higher rate of income tax.

This is summarised nicely in the Jack Straw report on family matters. Again, the conclusion he reaches is that the unremunerated work of the parent in the home needs to be supported. Our position would be greatly enhanced were it to be given full monetary recognition but it also requires social recognition which would enhance and accelerate budgetary recognition. However, it should be recognised. Should it be deleted from the Constitution, it would be detrimental and a recognition that this work is not worthy of note.

I draw the joint committee's attention to the points made in the report produced by the previous Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Coughlan. The report on the family, Families and Family Life in Ireland, by the public consultative forum, states the status of the carer and the value placed on care are vital. It is seen to be vital that those who work in the home are recognised and compensated in some way.

Furthermore, on foot of the report, research was carried out in UCC among working mothers. I do not know why it was confined to working mothers. They said they were not fulfilling their primary caring responsibilities because they were employed. They also felt they were denied an opportunity to fulfil their caring responsibilities because they were more or less forced to seek paid work. This research was carried out only 18 months ago. There is a real need in Ireland to have this work recognised. It is coming to the fore because there is a perceived sense that work in the home, because it is unpaid, is not valued and, therefore, of no use. It is vital that it is kept enshrined in the Constitution and honoured. Having done so, the much needed legislation should follow.

Does Ms Lynch accept that monetary acceptance would lead to social acceptance? There is no campaign to delete these protective provisions from the Constitution. I have not heard anybody campaign for this yet.

There is a lobby. Some have the interpretation that the term "a woman in the home" is derogatory, like chaining a woman to the kitchen sink. As regards those who framed the Constitution, one of the wisest views is that de Valera's notion at the time was that a woman should not be forced out of the home by economic necessity. Deputy McCormak's point is that more support should be given to women in the home, or carers if one wants to use that word.

I will call a number of other speakers and perhaps we can bank the questions because our time is limited. I will call Deputies Devins and O'Sullivan, Senator Tuffy and Deputy Andrews.

I will be brief. I welcome the members of the delegation and thank them for their submission. I have two brief points, one of which is a development of Deputy McCormack's question. I thank the delegation for making suggestions as to how the Constitution might be changed. The proposed change to Article 41.2.2o reads: "The State shall, therefore, ensure that those who care for dependants within the home shall not be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour to the neglect of those duties". If that proposal was brought to its logical conclusion, there would obviously be huge budgetary implications. According to the delegation's own figures, if there are 500,000 people within the meaning of this wording and they were to get €100 per week, a nominal sum, one would be talking about at least €50 million per year.

I will now address my second point. How does the delegation feel about those working in the home but not caring for dependants? For example, would a partner in a relationship who, for whatever reason, may not want to work outside the home fall within the ambit of the proposed wording also?

I have a mild suggestion to make. The title of the delegation's organisation, WITH, is eye-catching but do poor old men not come in somewhere under it also? Should there not be an "MW" or "WM" in the acronym?

I will answer the Deputy's second question. Ms Uí Ghiollagáin will then deal with the first.

The original name of the organisation was WITH, women in the home. We have since changed it to Cúram — with care — for the very reason the Deputy mentioned. The organisation is a member of the international organisation, FEFAF, which has at the table a men only organisation which represents men in the home in Italy. They are vociferous and worthy partners in crime.

Ms Uí Ghiollagáin

I wish to address the difference between someone in the home and someone caring for dependants. Clearly, those caring for dependants are in a different category in that they are giving a benefit to the common good which exceeds that of someone looking after the home only. The benefits are so great by having someone to look after children and the elderly that a distinction needs to be made. The point is often raised by journalists and others who say, "Look, the Article covers people who play golf all day long". I have not met many of them.

Neither have we.

Ms Uí Ghiollagáin

If someone is at home and does not have dependants, one often finds that he or she is active in volunteering. One needs to give recognition to activities, rather than to the status of being in the home. Once one recognises an activity, one will encourage people to do things for the benefit of the common good.

For example, my children are being collected from school today by a 70 year old retired gentleman and brought to his house to be cared for by his wife. They do not have any children at home but as my neighbours are facilitating me, in addition to the extra work they do within the community.

Ms Uí Ghiollagáin

On the first point about the budget, as I have pointed out, it is clear that when caring does not happen in the family, the institutional care budget explodes. If one looks at what is being spent, much of it is unnecessary because people in institutional care could often be supported within the home and the community. The money could be used to much better effect within the home and the community. Excluding capital costs, the minimum charge within an institution is at least eight times the cost of carer's benef. The non-capital cost to the State can go up to €600,000 per person per year. The Government often has to pay this amount because of the minimum standards set. That seems crazy. Where people choose to stay at home, it would be much more cost effective to the Exchequer to provide reasonable support, rather than giving a payment to everybody regardless of what he or she does. The policy should be to front-end the investment in terms of the person in need of care or the activity one wants to support and then allow others to access the value of that work.

We have to break down interdepartmental resistance because there is no liaison between the Department of Social and Family Affairs and the Department of Health and Children.

Ms Uí Ghiollagáin

There is an interdepartmental group examining the issue of long-term care, which brings together the Department of Finance, the Department of Social and Family Affairs and the Department of Health and Children. Child care comes under the aegis of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform but the Department of Education and Science is now getting involved. We are also represented on the consultative committee for developing standards for quality child care in early years' education which will cover the home and all other environments in which children are present.

One of my questions has been answered. An important point has been made by the delegation, one of which we should be cognisant, that we do not want to take away rights already provided for in the Constitution. It is welcome that it has given us a text in Irish because as I understand it, the Irish language version has primacy in the Constitution?

I want to ask the delegation about the wording of the proposal on Article 41.2.2° in which terms such as "engage in labour to the neglect of those duties" are used. Is the delegation stuck on that language? The word "duties", in particular, may imply that if somebody is not caring in the home, he or she is neglecting his or her duties. I would like the delegation to comment on this.

Ms Uí Ghiollagáin

We tried to find a formulation that would protect such a person legally but were unable to do so in the timeframe allowed. Whereas before it was pointed out clearly that the mother had these duties, the Constitution does not state who has them but somebody does have them. We looked at the way this issue was being interpreted by the courts. In the case of marital breakdown Mrs. Justice Susan Denham clearly relied on this wording to say that as the at-home spouse had this duty, she, therefore, deserved a reasonable part of the marital assets. One has to be careful when one seeks to change this. Personally I do not like the wording but how does one find something that would, on the one hand, recognise and, on the other, protect the person who carries out the work?

It is also important to ensure the person one is protecting is not the local childminder or somebody who comes in to look after the children for the day. It must be defined sufficiently to include the parents, grandparents and the extended family.

My first question which concerned an allowance for those who work in the home has been answered. WITH stated it would be in favour of the wording which mentions women, in particular, being changed in order that it would cover carers of either gender and different types. In regard to Article 41.3.1°, how would WITH feel about the wording, "The State pledges itself to guard with special care the institution of Marriage, on which the Family is founded", being changed to broaden the definition of "family"?

That is beyond our remit. We chose to concentrate on the particular branch in society we represent.

Ms Uí Ghiollagáin

Our members include people from a wide variety of backgrounds, including non-marital relationships. They would like to see their parenting and caring roles recognised.

I welcome the delegation. I spoke to Ms Uí Ghiollagáin on the telephone on a few occasions and know she was anxious her group would attend the joint committee. What she said was very interesting because often at social gatherings when people are asked what they do, the housewife is almost frowned upon because so many women are in the workforce. The housewife is almost afraid to speak up to say she is an ordinary housewife. I remember Garrett FitzGerald raised the issue of women in the home receiving recognition. I also remember the famous figure of £9.20 but that was a long time ago in 1982. Since then many women have joined the workforce.

What Ms Uí Ghiollagáin said was valid. Most say voluntarism is dying in Ireland, yet those who tend to be involved in such activities, whether meals on wheels or otherwise, tend to be housewives. The woman who is at work does not have time to volunteer because she must try to look after her family when she comes home from work in the evening. There is scope for recognition. Ms Uí Ghiollagáin made a point about her contribution to various activities but when she went back to work, the situation changed.

We should all know from the recent saga in respect of nursing home charges the number who must go into nursing homes because there is nobody to look after them in the home because society has changed. If there was recognition of those who remain at home, perhaps there would not be that pressure and expenditure. It is a concept worth exploring.

I do not want to cut anyone off as it is in an interesting debate but I ask members to stick to asking questions as succinctly as possible. We could debate this matter all afternoon but we are meeting another group at 2 p.m.

I was very pleased to hear WITH's contribution. It is great to hear both points of view. While we are always thinking about the person working in the home, we are now concentrating more on quality of life in the community. I am pleased WITH has highlighed this issue. Something should be done to give recognition. We may need to amend the Constitution or introduce legislation in that regard. However, WITH has made a valid contribution and answered questions I might have asked. I will very much air its views in the final report.

Amendments have been proposed but if it is not broken, why fix it? The Constitution provides much of the protection required. WITH has stated Mrs. Justice Susan Denham and other judges have acknowledged that the Constitution protects women in the home. Sometimes when referenda are held, there are different camps and misinterpretations, as in the referendum on abortion and so on. As a last resort, would WITH be happy to leave well enough alone?

Ms Uí Ghiollagáin

We believe it is being interpreted to include men and that it provides a certain amount of protection. While there is always a risk in amending the Constitution, we believe we should not leave it as is and that we should ask for what we believe we deserve and the recognition to which we aspire. That is why we have done this.

It was in response to an understanding that this issue was under review and that there was a possibility it could be changed. Therefore, we believed we needed to put down a marker that it needed to be altered but the spirit needs to be retained.

I thank WITH for a thought-provoking and interesting submission. I am sure it is striking a chord with people who believe their voices are not being heard. We will take its submission on board. We will resume at 2 p.m. The joint committee is due to meet five groups this afternoon.

Sitting suspended at 1.05 p.m. and resumed at 2.10 p.m.

The next presentation will be by the Mother and Child Campaign, which is represented by Ms Maria McMenamin, director; Ms Niamh Ní Bhriain; Ms Anne Green; and Dr. Seán Ó Domhnaill. They are welcome.

Before commencing I remind witnesses that members of this committee have absolute privilege but that same privilege does not extend to witnesses appearing before the committee. I remind members and visitors to turn off their mobile telephones as they interfere with the broadcast and recording systems. We have received the campaign's submission. I ask the representatives to synopsise the important aspects of their submission in six to eight minutes and that will be followed by a question and answer session.

Dr. Seán Ó Domhnaill

The committee will have had the opportunity to peruse our submission. I have copies of the oral submission, which I will make available. I would like to expand on some of the issues of particular concern to those of us who view the protection of the family by Bunreacht na hÉireann not only as adequate but essential in its present form. It is with a grave reservation that I make this submission to the committee, as I am suspicious as to the motivation behind the perceived need to re-examine the Constitution, purely in the light of movements within international organisation, notably the United Nations and the EU Commission on Human Rights.

Bunreacht na hÉireann has been the bulwark of resistance for Irish men and women who recognise that the broad thrust of international sociological change is not of benefit to any society which wishes to sustain itself into the distant future without increasing the risk of social disintegration and the associated fallout in terms of poverty, crime, injustice and, at a very human level, general happiness and well-being. The committee should, as an organ of the State, ask the questions it has posed from the perspective of the State and its Constitution. The submissions should have to demonstrate that the Constitution is failing the majority of people in the democratic State to indicate the need for change. If this is not the case, then the committee should rule that insufficient evidence is being provided to convict the Constitution of failing in its duty to protect the democratic majority, regardless of changed paradigms in international law.

Bunreacht na hÉireann is the Constitution of the sovereign Irish State and, until such time as this sovereignty is usurped by foreign interests, our Constitution remains superior in Ireland to any fads or phases through which international organisations wish to pass. I direct the committee's attention to page three of its booklet, The All-Party Oireachtas Committee on the Constitution, where it states that the task of the committee is "to complete the programme of constitutional amendments begun by the above committees, aimed at renewing the Constitution in all its parts, for implementation over a number of years". There is an innate suggestion that the role of the committee is to amend the Constitution, albeit by the introduction of recommendations to Dáil Éireann for the purpose of debate and, ultimately, referendum. The following question must be raised — what if the Constitution does not need amendment? What if the Constitution in its current format represents the best interests of the people? Surely then there can be no need to suggest amendment.

The booklet further states that the committee's task is "unprecedented: no other state with the referendum as its sole mechanism for constitutional change has set itself so ambitious an objective". Did it enter the minds of those who decided to proceed along this route that perhaps all the other states were not wrong? Perhaps this is an exercise too far and we are seeking change for the sake of change, particularly a Constitution which has served its people well? Article 41.1 recognises the family as "the natural primary and fundamental unit group of society and as a moral institution possessing inalienable and imprescriptible rights, antecedent and superior to all positive law". Does this article serve the people or cause undue suffering?

No society is based on another fundamental unit group to which we should aspire. Countries which have sought to "break" the family in favour of the state, such as the old Iron Curtain states, have endured immense sociological and individual suffering. The family based on marriage has long been the bedrock of Irish and other societies. Where the marital relationship breaks down, people universally lament the fact. Where there are children of the marriage, the tragedy is always considered to be compounded.

The recognition of the family's importance by the Constitution and its ascription to it of "inalienable and imprescriptible rights" shows the importance traditionally attributed to this fundamental unit by Irish society. It has served us well. The flaws, if any, attributable to the family unit are invariably of a human nature. They will never be removed as long as human nature remains unchanged.

When the Constitution describes the family as "indispensable to the welfare of the Nation and the State", it is not a statement to be taken lightly. Weakening the family, as has been the wont of the Legislature in the past three decades, in particular, has led to a situation where many children and "grown-up children" have suffered unnecessarily because the State has failed in its obligation to protect the family unit and to afford it special rights and privileges.

The State's introduction of policies, which successive Governments have pursued, to forcefully remove mothers from their homes and to financially penalise mothers who take on the role of homemaker is a national disgrace. The lack of insight displayed by politicians regarding the importance of the role played by these women who choose to stay at home to rear their children is all the worse.

If the State wants to provide for the future, more parents should be encouraged to have more children, like the other countries of the world, which have finally realised that extinction faces the nation which does not produce adequate numbers of citizens. The report of the EU Commission, Confronting Demographic Change: a New Solidarity Between the Generations, should be read by the committee and by the Minister of Finance. The report confirms that the EU is facing an unprecedented demographic crisis and that immigration can no longer be relied on to mitigate the impact of falling birth rates. It also predicts that, despite the increase of retirement age, the falling population will cause annual growth to be halved by 2040.

Faced with this crisis the EU falls back helplessly on the Lisbon Agenda, so slavishly followed in introducing tax individualisation to penalise single income families, an agenda which will, in the long term, exacerbate the problem. PricewaterhouseCoopers' calculations following the December 2004 budget showed that tax individualisation punished single-income families to the tune of €4,680 a year. The Mother and Child Campaign urges the committee to recommend an end to tax individualisation and the introduction of policies that recognise the invaluable service to the State provided by mothers in the home.

Surveys conducted by BUPA, Top Santé, New Woman and many others have shown that a majority of mothers would prefer to raise their children at home given the option. Mothers who make many sacrifices to rear their children at home do the State an inestimable and unrewarded service, and that the emotional well-being of children is vastly improved by their sacrifices is now universally accepted. In its 2002 document entitled Parents Under Pressure, the child care agency Barnardos criticised the current child care debate for being more concerned about gender equality and market forces than the welfare of children. It suggests that time poverty is one of the greatest threats to children’s well-being.

Research undertaken by Professor Jay Belsky, director of the Institute for Studies of Children at Birkbeck College, London, found there is no substitute for a child's parents, especially for a mother, in the early years of a child's life. He also states that children who spend more than 20 hours a week away from their parents, in child care, from an early age, are likely to become problem children, more aggressive and less well behaved. The debate on child care has shifted in that we now widely accept it is damaging and discuss how damaging it may be. Article 41.2 should not be changed. Instead the committee should recommend to the State that it fulfils its obligations to protect the place of the mother in the home.

The Mother and Child Campaign notes the manner in which the question relating to Article 40.2 was phrased gives rise to concerns regarding the objectivity of the committee. Had the committee already decided that the constitutional protection of mothers in the home is outdated or was the committee trying to be provocative? The Mother and Child Campaign will meet any attempt to remove protection from mothers in the home with determined and successful opposition.

Sociology, anthropology, criminology, psychology and psychiatry all recognise the importance of providing stable early home environments for the citizens of the State. When the family unit begins to break down, the fabric of society is shredded and the result is anarchy. We are witnessing in our cities in particular the effects of the breakdown of the traditional family unit. As a psychiatrist and psychotherapist with much experience in the area of treating personality disorder, particularly of the more widespread emotionally unstable and anti-social types, I have long realised that I can almost predict the nature of the early environments that precede the development of gravely disordered offenders. The State has never sought to address this issue, despite the fact that the incidence and prevalence of violent crime continues to grow at such a rate that it is negligent of the State institutions not to seek to understand the link between family breakdown and increasing social chaos.

In the English language, marriage is defined as "a legally accepted relationship between a woman and a man in which they live as husband and wife, or the official ceremony which results in this". Even in law, which can sometimes deviate from the vernacular norms in regard to definitions of certain commonly used terms, marriage is defined as "the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a legal, consensual, and contractual relationship recognised and sanctioned by and dissolvable only by law".

The committee, in examining Article 40.3, should consider what additional efforts can be made to protect the institution of marriage on which the family is founded and how best to protect it against attack. One way which is obvious is to protect the integrity of marriage by ensuring that no other unions, be they homosexual, bisexual, or others are considered as constituting a marriage. There is a tiny but vociferous lobby which seeks to have unions based on a variety of sexual preferences recognised as marriages. Should the State extend the protection of the Constitution as outlined in Article 41.3.1 to such unions? The question can only be answered by asking if this would be of such benefit to the State and to the nation that it would be warranted.

There is no evidence that such benefit would accrue to the State from including such unions under the aforementioned protection of the family. The family based on marriage is the world's most enduring institution, largely because it is held to be life-long and faithful and because it has provided the best environment for raising children. The mother and child campaign recognises the superb efforts made by lone parents to raise their children as best they can, but it remains the case that the two-parent family is the ideal. Recognising that ideal does not discriminate against nor make judgment on individual circumstances.

Individuals, because of their inherent human dignity, must be protected by the State. Unions not based on marriage already have protection under the personal rights identified in Article 40.3. Where siblings or other family members reside together, legal protection with regard to distribution of property, etc., can be provided. Any alternative to the recognised family based on the sacred institution of marriage is of no benefit to the nation or the State.

Framing this debate in terms of rights is, in fact, misleading. Marriage is not in itself a right, rather it is an institution with a very special function. Marriage is not simply about love, it is about providing a formal, stable framework for propagation and it, therefore, has huge implications for the future of our society. Society has a vested interest in how children are raised. Therefore, it is hardly surprising that heterosexual marriage has survived for so long and has come to incorporate and attract various legal benefits. If one removes children from the equation, then adult romantic relationships cease to have any special relevance to the future of society. They become purely private affairs that require no special sanction or blessing from the State.

The legal challenge brought by Zappone and Gilligan, the Private Members' Bill proposed by Senator Norris and the vigorous lobbying of several numerically insignificant taxpayer-funded gay and lesbian groupings, do not reflect the views of the majority of Irish people, as is evidenced by the submissions received by the committee. Homosexual and lesbian unions should never have the right to adopt children. They cannot provide the secure and loving environment children require. Parents of Irish children would be horrified to think their children could, in the event of their deaths, be adopted by homosexual or lesbian couples. No significant public support exists to give homosexuals or lesbians the right to adopt Irish children.

The immense media interest and promotion of the idea of homosexual parenting, and the idea that somehow this would lead to a new type of family, makes it necessary for a brief comment on this. I refer the committee to the website of the American College of Pediatricians and its section dealing with parenting issues. In short, the following points are made and substantiated by relevant research references. Data based on long-term outcomes for children placed in homosexual households are very limited and the available evidence reveals grave concerns. Child-rearing studies have consistently indicated that children are more likely to thrive emotionally, mentally and physically in a home with two heterosexual parents versus a home with a single parent. Violence among homosexual partners is two to three times more common than among married heterosexual couples. Homosexual partnerships are significantly more prone to dissolution than heterosexual marriages with the average homosexual relationship lasting only two to three years. Homosexual men and women are reported to be inordinately promiscuous involving serial sexual partners, even within what are loosely termed “committed relationships”. Individuals who practise a homosexual lifestyle are more likely than heterosexuals to experience mental illness, substance abuse, suicidal tendencies and shortened lifespans. The American College of Pediatricians states that although some would claim these dysfunctions are a result of societal pressures in America, the same dysfunctions exist at inordinately high levels among homosexuals in cultures where the practice is more widely accepted. Children reared in homosexual households are more likely to experience sexual confusion, practise homosexual behaviour and engage in sexual experimentation. The latter are all associated with increased risk of mental health problems, including depression, anxiety disorder and conduct disorder, which lead to anti-social personality disorders, substance dependence and especially suicidal ideation and suicide attempts.

The committee may wish to examine whether the introduction of divorce, as mentioned in Article 41.3.2°, has led to an increase in the likelihood of marital breakdown in view of the fact that the 1995 amendment has rendered State marriage soluble. Perhaps the committee will consider examining whether there is an advantage in marriage where the man and woman involved make a commitment of a sacred lifelong nature versus that of the amended temporary State type. We refer the committee to the submission of the Mother and Child Campaign for any additional comment on constitutional matters relating to the family.

I would like to comment on the submissions made by the Mother and Child Campaign. Members and supporters of the campaign posted and hand delivered an estimated 20,000 submissions, both in written, printed and petition form, to the offices of the All-Party Oireachtas Commission on the Constitution. The offices are willing to acknowledge only 8,000 submissions. This is a serious development which undermines the credibility and authority of the joint committee. The petitions and submissions are now State documents on the matters before the committee and of particular importance to those citizens we have been asked to represent at these oral hearings. We have evidence, a signed receipt of delivery which is available to the committee, with regard to 9,244 of the said submissions and petitions. It is absolutely impossible for any group to have faith in an Oireachtas committee which in a most ominous manner cannot account for the whereabouts of public written submissions, particularly where they are all in support of maintaining the integrity of the Constitution, Bunreacht na hÉireann. Our members who have made submissions which have either not been acknowledged or, more interestingly, acknowledged and then denied will swear affidavits before legal representatives today. We will not allow the voices of citizens to be silenced because they do not meet the political parties' consensus on how best to dismantle the Constitution.

As I have stated, the objectivity of the joint committee has, in our eyes, always been in question because of the language used by the all-party Oireachtas committee on the Constitution in advertising for public submissions and statements in advance of the holding of public hearings. The Mother and Child Campaign wishes to alert the people to our belief this process is a farce with a predetermined outcome. The views of the people are being disregarded in an unprecedented display of contempt and disrespect for the democratic process. We hold this in refusing to acknowledge the committee has authority. So ends our engagement with it.

The group is as consistent as ever.

It has left of its own volition. All I will say is we dealt with this issue yesterday. We unanimously and wholeheartedly support the integrity of our limited number of staff. We have only three full-time members in Phoenix House. It is most unparliamentary to launch an attack on them. For parliamentary reasons I will not name the staff members who have been subjected to verbal attacks and other forms of harassment in recent weeks. It is regrettable that the group concerned should take this line. We, too, may have to seek legal advice. As politicians, we may be considered fair game. However, it is regrettable that Civil Service staff are named and blamed for something that is not their responsibility.

Hear, hear.

As a matter of interest, this is the box delivered. It contains 1,300 forms, not 9,000 as stated. As it is quite heavy, it would be physically impossible for one girl to lift eight times that weight. That is the reality. We have made our decision. We unanimously support the integrity of our staff. We should stick to this.

I fully support the Chairman. I take great exception to people coming to the joint committee on the pretence of making a submission. They were invited to attend and take questions. I object that they used the opportunity to attack the staff of the committee. They also attacked members saying the committee had a predetermined outcome.

I wish to defend myself as a member of the joint committee. I have listened to all the submissions so far. I was willing to sit through this one also and had questions to ask. Every group is entitled to make its submission and have its case heard. However, nobody is entitled to abuse that privilege. I do not wish to cast aspersions on him but if I had been Chairman, I would have stopped the deputation at the end of the submission. I would not have given it the opportunity of which it availed in front of the press to attack the committee secretariat. It is a disgrace that this has been allowed to happen.

I take grave exception to the suggestion that I came here with predetermined ideas. I came to hear the submissions and will continue to do so. I will ask questions, sometimes to encourage debate to find out exactly what those making submissions want. The deputation which has just left seriously abused the rights given to it by the joint committee.

I understand from where the Deputy is coming. However, if I attempted to suppress what the group had planned to say, I would have been accused of suppression. I decided, therefore, to let it have its say. We have decided that the integrity and professionalism of our staff are unquestionable. The same staff dealt with 110,000 submissions on the abortion issue. If it could handle those submissions, it will have no problem handling 10,000 or 12,000 submissions on this issue.

The submission in question is a printed letter signed by people throughout the country. There is just one submission which has been multiplied. With respect to the content, it just means more people have signed it. It is one letter signed by hundreds or thousands throughout the country. It does not matter whether we received 10,000 or 20,000 but to suggest we suppressed or destroyed some of the submissions made is ludicrous.

I agree 100%. However, I do not accept that the group should have been given the opportunity to rubbish the joint committee and get its point across in front of the press as the accusation is unfounded.

I am sure the press has its own way of handling the matter.

I do not want to intervene in the Chair' s rulings and I accept what the Chair has said. However, certain utterances were made about the integrity of members of the joint committee. I wrote down the words "a consensus to dismantle the Constitution". There is no such consensus; quite the reverse. We regard ourselves as defenders of the Constitution. We are charged with the task of looking at aspects of it which may need to be changed. Some of the utterances made are totally objectionable. They must be rejected by all members of the committee because they reflect on our capacity to do our work.

Those of us who were involved in the all-party Oireachtas committee on the Constitution when it considered the contentious matter of abortion were confronted with a similar situation. I asked one of the representatives of the body involved at the time whether it would accept that the committee and the Oireachtas would act in good faith and do their job to the best of their ability. The answer was no. However, we will do our job as we have been charged to do.

I have no doubt about it. I have been a member of the joint committee for almost eight years. It has worked to protect the Constitution and debate is fair. Some 55 groups have asked to make oral submissions which will continue over two full weeks. This is the only group which does not agree with what we are doing. The episcopal group was present this morning and we have also heard from various groups representing young people, etc.

There is an issue to debate and there should be no suggestion that we have predetermined notions. The only ones who can dismantle the Constitution are the people who would have to vote on the issue. We have no agenda. If debate is stymied, it will be a sad day. It is sad that we cannot discuss ongoing progress and work of the joint committee. We have a job to do and we will do it with fairness and equity.

I will be brief because I do not believe in giving the group the attention it obviously seeks on the public airwaves. I reject the statement that my colleagues and I on the joint committee come with a predetermined view or are not objective in the manner in which we listen to submissions. I hope it is reported that every member rejects this accusation without qualification. As they were leaving the room members of the group were heard to utter we were subject to and servants of the people. I am quite happy to be a servant of the people but the people who came here today should remember that they have abused in a most disgraceful way Parliament which was set up by the people. I hope this will be reported as undoubtedly will their submission to the committee.

I compliment the Chairman on the manner in which he has dealt with this matter. He afforded the group in question the opportunity to make a presentation. I was shocked that its members offended us in stating we did not reflect the views of the people, that our role was outdated and they instead were the ones who reflected the needs of the people. I intend to stay with this debate. The group was afforded the opportunity to tease out the questions raised in its presentation. It did not afford us that opportunity. I take grave offence at its wild statements that we do not reflect the views of the nation when we deal with the articles of the Constitution being discussed today.

The group concerned made a 15 page submission to the joint committee. Every other group forwarded a written submission in advance of the meeting which the members had the right to study and evaluate. The group concerned presented a short summary document two or three pages long. It came here with one objective, to gain publicity. The document contains inflammatory material and most of the text is not consistent with the original text. The group is at variance with other groups which were constructive at all stages. It has behaved disgracefully and I deplore some of its statements. I wonder if it is caught in a time warp and still back in 1937.

I have been a Member of the Houses of the Oireachtas for 32 years. In all my time here I have never experienced such intimidation and insults from any organisation or individual. However, we are capable of dealing with this as it is not unusual to receive abuse and insults. What I regard as reprehensible are the contents of parts of the presentation as outlined byMr. Ó Domhnaill. It is tantamount to incitement to hatred. Those involved should be liable to prosecution.

I propose the joint committee move on to the next business.

It is good that we have cleared the air on that issue because it will hit the headlines sooner rather than later. The joint committee must defend the integrity of its staff who have been subject to the most unusual vilification and threats which is most unfair to civil servants who are doing their job. As Chairman and as a politician, I do not mind being attacked occasionally because we are fair game but I must protect the staff who have worked for the committee for many years and will still be doing so when I am gone.

I invite the representatives of GLUE to make a presentation. The group is represented by Mr. Mark Lacey, co-chairperson; Ms Dil Wickremasinghe, co-chairperson; Mr. Adriano Avila, vice-chairperson, and Ms Mo Halpin. I remind visitors that while members of the joint committee have absolute privilege — something of which the previous group did not take note — they do not if they make derogatory comments. The committee has received the group's written submission. I ask it to take six or seven minutes to outline the principal issues of their campaign. There will then follow a sensible debate by way of questions and answers.

Ms Dil Wickremasinghe

On behalf of GLUE, I thank the joint committee for its invitation. This is an incredible honour for us.

We live in a democracy.

Ms Wickremasinghe

There will be no repeat of what happened earlier.

In Ireland, as there is no legal registration of same sex couples, there are no civil registrations. We do not enjoy equal rights and opportunities with heterosexual married couples. This is especially unfair when it concerns unions comprised of Irish and non-Irish members. The lack of rights leaves these couples exposed and alone to fend for themselves and struggle with immigration laws.

There are more than 1,000 same sex couples living in Ireland who unfortunately are invisible in the eyes of Irish law. The 2002 census showed that over 77,000 family units of cohabiting couples included 1,300 same sex couples who were brave enough to state this on the census form. We are two of that number.

Our submission deals in depth with Article 41 of the Constitution which does not appropriately reflect modern Ireland. GLUE's main recommendation is for the Constitution to embrace a broader definition of marriage. It would, therefore, be a more accurate reflection of the position of Irish citizens. Article 41.3.1° states: "The State pledges itself to guard with special care the institution of Marriage, on which the Family is founded, and to protect it against attack". GLUE urges the joint committee to consider a broader definition such as the UN definition which refers to the family as any combination of two or more persons who are bound together by ties of mutual consent, birth and-or adoption or placement and who together assume responsibility for, inter alia, the care and maintenance of group members, the addition of new members through procreation or adoption, the socialisation of children and the social control of members. This broad definition is free of some words that may be viewed as troublesome such as “marriage”, “father”, “mother”, “husband” and “wife” and would put cohabiting couples, both homosexual and heterosexual, on an equal footing with married couples.

GLUE supports Senator Norris's Bill on civil partnerships which it considers as a more blanket approach to allow same sex couples to register their partnership and give it full legal status. We urge Ireland to consider the United Kingdom example in dealing with this issue. In the mid-1990s, as a result of trying to obtain citizenship for their non-EU partners through the usual channels, many couples decided to apply directly on the grounds of their relationship. The Labour Party made a pact with the Stonewall Immigration Group, now known as the UK Lesbian and Gay Immigration Group. In 1997 it introduced the unmarried partners concession which stated that if a couple could prove they had been cohabiting for four years, the non-EU partner would be granted residency and eligible to apply for citizenship after a further three years. In 1999, the period of four years was reduced to two years as it was deemed practically impossible for a couple to remain legally in the UK for the full four years.

Last year the Civil Partnership Bill was passed and ratified by Queen Elizabeth and comes into force later this year. The Act will give legal rights and entitlements as married couples in matters such as taxation, immigration etc. Alternatively the committee could also consider France, which has Le Pacte Civil de Solidarité, which is also known as le PACS, which basically gives the union official recognition.

GLUE believes that the path to introducing civil union in Ireland is more straightforward than many people realise. In the meantime we believe some provisions should be introduced with immediate effect to relieve the lack of legal rights, especially when discussing same-sex couples of EU and non-EU nationality. GLUE also urges the committee to consider the numerous case studies that were included in our submission, all of which document the human plight endured by these couples every day. I now hand over to my co-chair, Mr. Mark Lacey, to continue the presentation.

Mr. Mark Lacey

I thank the committee for inviting us here today. My name is Mark Lacey and I would like to give a brief synopsis of what this is about. Mr. Adriano Avila is my partner of seven and a half years. As outlined in page 16 of the submission under the guise of the story of Stephen and Matthew, we met seven and a half years ago in London and moved back to Ireland. As my partner is from Brazil, he is legally entitled to enter the country and was not required to have a visa for three months. Ireland was different then in terms of immigration and was very naive. Mr. Avila was able to obtain his RSI number without being asked for any identification. Once the three months expired, Mr. Avila became illegal and for the past six years has lived illegally in this country with myself. As far as we know in February we became the first gay couple to be granted residency in the country on the basis of our homosexual relationship, on which we commend the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Moves in the right direction are being made on this issue.

The problem arises with inconsistencies in the law. Immigration officials have no positive framework or real legislation to which they can refer to support either same-sex or opposite-sex couples in this situation. What happened to Mr. Avila and me is not guaranteed for anybody else which is where the problem arises. We were fortunate. I presume that the length of our stay plucked a few heartstrings. There are issues, such as how long a couple should be together if they are not married, that cause big problems to both straight and gay people in this situation, which is why GLUE was established.

We do not recommend a change to the Constitution; that is not why we are here. We merely seek recognition for same-sex and opposite-sex cohabiting couples. We do not believe this undermines the Constitution in any way as we do not ask for more than what is provided for married couples under the Constitution. Article 41.3.2° refers to divorce and its five-year timeframe. If this timeframe is to remain in the Constitution, the immigration issue needs to be addressed. What is happening to gay couples in Ireland at the moment will become increasingly prevalent for heterosexual couples, particularly those who enter divorce proceedings in the country. It is virtually impossible to remain in this country — or any country — where work permits or visas must be applied for on a yearly basis. Normally after a four-year period an applicant would be rejected. If the five-year timeframe applies to heterosexual couples or same-sex couples, one partner would no longer have leave to remain in the country and might face deportation.

Last year the Law Reform Commission recommended no change to immigration law for cohabiting couples. It also recommended no change to the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Acts for cohabiting couples. This is very disturbing as it is widely accepted in the immigration arena that immigration law contains no consistencies, which basically makes it obsolete. Having said that, in the same year the LRC recommended that cohabiting same-sex and opposite-sex relationships should be recognised, which GLUE finds very heartening. However, we are opposed to the idea or proof of love by timeframe. Not only is it discriminatory, it also does not work as mentioned by Ms Dil Wickremansighre.

The question of financial implications for the Exchequer always seems paramount. Why Senator Norris would present a Bill as contentious as his seems to be ignored. Why a couple would challenge the legal system on taxation after living together for 23 years seems to be ignored. Why hundreds of people will remain in a legal relationship despite the risk of deportation is ignored. Finance seems to take precedence over humanity. Love is for sale and same-sex relationships exact a high price. Last week's decision blatantly indicates that relationships involving people who cannot marry are financially very beneficial to the State while at the same time it is claimed that same-sex relationships are not productive to society.

Having said that, Ms Dil Wickremasinghe and I are increasingly positive about the direction of the Government and this committee. Protection is now afforded to same-sex couples under domestic violence legislation indicating that a start has already been made. Last week we were really heartened by the discussion document, Immigration and Residency in Ireland, published by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Submissions regarding this document can be made by the end of July and we intend to do so. It will interest the committee that chapter 9 of the document is entitled Admissions for the Purpose of Family Reunification, which we find most encouraging.

Our two key recommendations for the committee are as follows. We feel the best approach is the implementation of legislation such as that proposed by Senator Norris regarding civil union. This would be a one-stop blanket approach to the challenges faced by same-sex and opposite-sex couples in Ireland today. It would automatically confer equal rights in terms of immigration, taxation, inheritance etc. as are afforded to those who can marry at present while at the same time not undermining the institution of marriage. As an organisation primarily concerned with immigration, GLUE's main concern is addressed in our second recommendation. We seek recognition in immigration law of same-sex and opposite-sex cohabiting couples. The discussion paper on immigrants and residence in Ireland should be developed in this regard. Any recommendations and outcomes in favour of these relationships should be adopted in any new legislation that follows.

Our secondary recommendations are as follows. Should the committee determine that Article 41 of the Constitution needs amendment, same-sex and opposite-sex cohabiting couples should be provided for. In terms of verification of cohabiting couples' relationships, no timetable should be specified before the couple can register its relationship in whatever way such registration might take place in future. Couples who can marry do not need to do this. They apply for residency after the couple has married and after a given number of years the non-European Economic Area partner can apply for naturalisation. Should the relationship dissolve before the non-EEA partner has been naturalised, the issue arises as to whether the non-EEA partner can still remain in the country. This should be the same for same-sex and opposite-sex cohabiting couples. We also recommend that the Government focus more on the humanitarian aspect of the issue as opposed to the financial one.

We thank the committee for giving us the opportunity to address it today. We remind members that, as mentioned at a recent Irish Human Rights Commission conference presided over by Professor William Binchy, Ireland has one of the most modern constitutions in Europe. It was created to be flexible and adapted to serve the changes that inevitably occur in society.

I thank the representatives of GLUE for their presentation. Before I invite Senator Dardis to speak, I would like to ask a question about the Private Members' Bill published by Senator Norris. When the Senator discussed the matter with the Taoiseach and me, as Chairman of the Joint Committee on the Constitution, he said he would not try to have the Bill passed by the Seanad until this committee had published its report and he could examine its recommendations. Despite what another group might think, the committee does not have any preconceived notions of its findings. In his Bill Senator Norris has stepped back from legislating for full gay or lesbian marriage. He seems to understand the public might not accept this in a referendum. It is clear, however, that he advocates a form of civil partnership or union. Would that be acceptable to GLUE?

Mr. Lacey

I am glad the Chairman asked that question. When GLUE was preparing for this presentation, its members and their friends were asked whether they believed gay and lesbian couples were interested in marriage in a religious or Catholic sense. Some 99% of the respondents did not believe gay couples were interested in such a form of marriage. One member of GLUE said they had a friend who believed full equality involved getting married in a church. That view is not generally shared by people in the gay community who think it is a separate matter and are simply seeking legal recognition of their relationships. They are not looking for sacramental recognition.

The Chairman has asked a question I intended to ask. One should bear in mind that civil marriage is as much of an option as sacramental marriage. A group which addressed the joint committee yesterday was in favour of gay marriage. The Civil Partnership Bill 2004 which is before the Seanad was introduced by Senator Norris. It strikes me that the dissolution of a civil partnership of the form recommended in the Bill would be much easier than it would be in the case of a married couple. The Bill provides that irretrievable breakdown would be an adequate ground for the dissolution of a civil partnership. If one wants to be entitled to enter into a partnership, one will have to understand certain obligations will arise from it. Does GLUE believe there should be impediments to the dissolution of a civil union?

I apologise for the mistake made in the representatives' titles. Perhaps it is indicative of a heterosexual mindset.

Ms Wickremasinghe

I am used to it because it happens all the time.

I would like to ask a question about Ms Wickremasinghe's case study. Was the application she lodged for residency?

Ms Wickremasinghe

I have residency.

Ms Wickremasinghe decided to lodge an application on the basis of her relationship, with the assistance of a solicitor. I am not clear about the nature of that application.

Ms Wickremasinghe

I have a work permit. I have been living in Ireland for the past five years. I met my partner when I was living in the Middle East and she brought me here. Although I have a work permit, I should point out that the work permit system is flawed in that one has to apply for a new permit on an annual basis. I decided to apply for residency on the basis of my relationship with an Irish woman. The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform kept my partner and I waiting for two years, before sending us a letter stating I did not need residency because I had a work permit. It suggested I give up my work permit and reapply for residency. I could not do such a thing because, like everyone else, I have bills to pay. I would not be allowed to work in the absence of a work permit.

Senator Dardis also asked about dissolution. Mr. Lacey has been with his partner, Adriano, for seven and a half years. I have been with mine, Mo, for six years. We understand the Senator's thoughts in this regard but are ready to go the distance. If people feel it is good to place impediments to the dissolution of a civil partnership, that is not a problem. It is not as if we want to jump in and out of partnerships as quickly as possible.

Mr. Lacey

Having spoken to Senator Norris, I understand one of his concerns when he was presenting the Bill was to ensure it did not seem like an attempt to create a form of partnership that was equal to marriage.

That is right.

Mr. Lacey

Therefore, he provided for the dissolution of a civil partnership within six weeks. However, the members of GLUE are seeking full equality in the light of the level of commitment within our relationships and the consequent obligations we face. We are not making the case for civil partnerships merely to acquire the benefits of recognised relationships under law. We realise that those participating in such arrangements will have certain obligations. If the Government believes Senator Norris's recommendation is flawed and that it should take five years to dissolve a relationship, as it does for married couples, we would completely agree.

The delegation is seeking equality. It stated changes should be made by means of legislation rather than constitutional amendment. GLUE is welcome to this meeting of the joint committee which will learn a great deal from the organisation's submission. I am sure the group will understand the committee is charged with examining constitutional matters. Does it envisage that the disadvantages it faces can be alleviated by means of legislation rather than constitutional amendment?

Mr. Lacey

That the recognition of gay relationships, whether in the form of marriage or civil union, is being discussed by the joint committee is seen by certain organisations as an attack on the Constitution. Groups such as GLUE think it is important to make representations to counteract such charges. I understand all legislation is introduced as a follow-up to the Constitution. While the members of GLUE do not feel their relationships constitute a threat to the Constitution, or undermine it in any way, the legislation under the aegis of the Constitution can be changed and implemented to benefit same sex and opposite sex cohabiting couples.

As we are running late — the joint committee has yet to meet a further three or four organisations — I will allow Senator Tuffy and Deputy Ó Snodaigh to speak before inviting the delegation to respond. I accept that it is not the fault of GLUE that the meeting is running late. The committee has received its submission.

While my question is similar to that asked by Deputy McCormack, it relates more to the Civil Partnership Bill 2004 which has been introduced by Senator Norris. Does GLUE feel the issues with which it deals such as residency could be dealt with separately from that Bill? Could other steps be taken?

Mr. Lacey

The second key recommendation made by GLUE was that the matter be considered in the discussion paper on immigration and residency in Ireland. That would involve dealing with this aspect of the matter specifically as an issue of immigration, rather than related issues such as taxation and the rights of children which would arise in the context of those involved in normal modes of marriage and registered heterosexual relationships. The question of the timeframe has been raised by other groups with which GLUE has been in contact such as the UK Lesbian and Gay Immigration Group.

In the back of my mind I have been wondering how to raise with a committee such as this the question of how the timeframe should be implemented. We were in England when the relevant timeframe was four years. We could not stay because that timeframe was impossible, although it was then reduced to two years. The new legislation passed in the United Kingdom has granted full equality in this respect to same sex couples, although not to heterosexual cohabiting couples. The UK Government felt that if it granted such equality to heterosexual cohabiting couples, it would undermine the institution of marriage. I am sure the joint committee and the Government will have to make such a decision in this jurisdiction.

The delegation has suggested in its submission that the constitutional provisions relating to the family should be changed.

Mr. Lacey

That was a secondary recommendation. We have said that if the joint committee finds that the Constitution needs to be changed, heterosexual and homosexual cohabiting couples should be provided for. It is not something GLUE is actively recommending.

If the change recommended by the delegation, with which I am broadly in agreement, although I would prefer a slightly modified wording, comes to pass, it would allow the legislation, etc., to flow much easier.

Mr. Lacey

While constitutional change would be beneficial to same sex and opposite sex cohabiting couples, our organisation has taken the view that it would take far longer to secure a positive referendum outcome than to provide for civil unions as proposed by Senator Norris. Of our members, 95% have immigration issues with which to deal and do not have a great deal of time to wait.

Ms Wickremasinghe

Unfortunately, a number of couples would have to resort to leaving Ireland. Irish members trying to return to Ireland with their non-EU partners have failed to secure status and have had to move to the United Kingdom or the United States.

A number of delegations and, in certain cases, the courts have indicated that there is a need to provide further for child protection in the Constitution. Does GLUE have knowledge or information on the numbers of children of couples in same sex relationships in Ireland?

Ms Wickremasinghe

I would feel more comfortable if the Senator asked that question of the ICCL as it concerns its area of expertise. As my co-chairman, Mr. Lacey explained, our group's primary concern is immigration. I would not want to put my foot in it.

Yesterday it was indicated that there was no real research or statistics on the number of children of same sex couples. We have a special interest in children's rights in respect of potential changes to the Constitution.

Mr. Lacey

The previous group suggested there were statistics and stated the findings of research were very negative. We refute this completely. While we do not have access to expert opinion, we refer members to organisations such as the Irish Council for Civil Liberties which has carried out considerable research.

We will take the GLUE submission into account in our deliberations and when we come to publish our report.

Sitting suspended at 3.15 p.m. and resumed at 3.20 p.m.

The next delegation, the Immigrant Council of Ireland, has been waiting patiently. Although we are running over time, we will try to allow it 30 minutes, as is its entitlement. I welcome Ms Denise Charlton, chief executive, and Ms Catherine Cosgrave, legal adviser. I remind visitors that while members of the joint committee have absolute privilege, this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. I invite the delegation to make its presentation for six to eight minutes, after which we will have questions and answers. As we have received the submission, I suggest Ms Charlton and Ms Cosgrave provide a synopsis, highlighting the main issues they wish to get across.

Ms Denise Charlton

I thank members of the joint committee for giving us an opportunity to make this presentation which we will divide into two parts. I will speak briefly about the Immigrant Council of Ireland, its work and issues which arise with regard to the family. My colleague, the council's legal officer, Ms Catherine Cosgrave, will then offer for the consideration of the committee a number of recommendations and solutions to the issues raised.

The Immigrant Council of Ireland was established by Sr. Stanislaus Kennedy in 2002 against the background of Ireland becoming a country of immigration and destination. While many groups were offering mechanisms of support to those entering the country on the basis of our international obligations, that is, asylum seekers and refugees, few mechanisms of support were available to large numbers of other immigrants, in other words, those entering the country for purposes such as work, study, self-employment and visits or those who had acquired irregular status or were seeking to join family members. The presentation will focus on these groups.

The core work of the Immigrant Council of Ireland is to provide information and advocacy services, principally in the areas of rights and entitlements. We regard our role as one of information provider and, as such, collate information on immigration and immigration law and distribute it is as widely as possible to as many groups as possible. We deliver training programmes for targeted service providers, work with agencies in the development of more inclusive policies and examine ways to develop new policy and research initiatives. We constantly try to learn about new communities in Ireland, their experiences and the implications of immigration policy on their daily lives. An additional aim of the council is to try to create better public understanding around the issues of migration, in terms of its benefits and challenges, and create debate on these issues.

To return to the issue of service provision, our service has two aspects. We offer an information and advocacy service for individual immigrants which supports approximately 3,000 people annually. We also offer this support to other organisations spread geographically throughout the county which may be working on other issues such as gender based violence, refugee access to health care and citizen information services.

A wide range of individuals with a variety of issues come through our door. Last year, for example, people from 139 nationalities accessed our service. We also provide a legal service in the absence of legal aid. This takes the form of support to individuals but also emulates our other service in that we try to provide our expertise for legal practitioners. We also have a working group of legal practitioners to which we can refer individuals.

An analysis of our services last year showed that family reunification, permission to remain, employment permits and citizenship were the four most common issues dealt with. Since we opened, family reunification has consistently been the most pressing issue for our service users.

We urge the joint committee, first and foremost, to recognise the changing nature and diversity of families. We know from the 2002 census that 160 nationalities live here and foreign nationals make up 5.8% of the population, a figure we believe to be an underestimate. As everyone is aware, the economy is expanding. To sustain economic growth the Central Statistics Office, in its population and labour force projections, estimates that 30,000 immigrants per annum will be required until 2036 and that 45,000 immigrant workers will be needed in each of the next 12 years. Some of the fortunate people who come here are accompanied by families. A speaker at a conference pointed out that we wanted workers but got people instead. This comment highlights the tiered system in operation and the fact that the right to family life is often dependent on one's immigration status. We call on the joint committee, in considering what constitutes a family, to view migrants as people with rights who deserve a family life.

I will briefly address some of the issues raised by those who come through our door. There is no codified right to immediate family reunion. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has absolute discretion to grant family reunification on an individual basis. The discretionary nature of decisions can be extremely problematic, particularly regarding children joining their families, and long delays can cause further problems.

In addition, persons granted leave to remain have no statutory rights to family reunification. Most recently, individuals applying for residency in the State on the basis of their parentage of an Irish child have been required to sign a statutory declaration accepting that they have no entitlement to family reunification. In certain circumstances this provision will affect reunification with a child or the child's father, the signatory's partner.

The restrictions placed on the right of a spouse to work cause difficulties. While it is welcome that some categories of spouse have a right to work, we want this right extended to all workers, particularly in the light of the number of workers the Central Statistics Office predicts will be required to maintain economic growth. The absence of a right to work also has implications for integration.

Women who come here on a dependant's visa are afforded little protection under the current system and their immigration status often jeopardises their personal safety. Many of those interviewed as part of a recent research project carried out by the Immigrant Council of Ireland spoke of experiencing loneliness and homesickness as a result of being separated from their families under our family reunification policy.

As the joint committee heard from GLUE, the previous delegation, our current administrative arrangements are largely based on the nuclear model and have little regard to cultural and societal norms or the rights and entitlements of individuals with unmarried partners. We work closely with GLUE and support the sentiments expressed in its presentation.

The Constitution recognises the family as the primary and fundamental unit of society. However, current policy appears to have little regard for families of immigrants and this causes great hardship and suffering. Legislation is required to provide immigrants with greater legal entitlements to family reunification and ensure an equal and fair application process and, most importantly, meaningful family life for all those in society.

Ms Catherine Cosgrave

I thank members of the joint committee for inviting the Immigrant Council of Ireland to make a presentation. I am conscious of the limited time available to me. I will follow on from the contribution of my colleague, Ms Charlton, by giving a context to the various issues involved by briefly identifying the experiences of some of the migrants who have availed of our services. We are aware of one particular lady, Angela — I have changed names to protect identities — from the Philippines who was recruited through an agency to work in Ireland with a contract cleaning company. She was educated in school by Irish missionaries and before coming here she had an idea of what Ireland was like and especially the value that was placed on the family in Irish society. She is working here legally on a work permit.

Her experience of family life in Ireland is not what she had imagined prior to coming here. While her hard work and professional skills are valued, her life is somewhat undermined. She has consistently been turned down for visas for family members to come and visit her, not to join her permanently or to come and work here but for the purposes of a visit. Her experience of family life consists exclusively of cash remittances back to the Philippines and long distance phone calls. Not surprisingly she feels isolated by her experience here and misses her family considerably.

Another case of which we would be aware, which again is not an isolated case, relates to Lee and Jenny who are originally from Asia but are now naturalised Irish citizens as they have lived here for a considerable period. They are home owners in south County Dublin where they reside with one of their children who was born in China and another child who is an Irish citizen. Over a period of about four years they have applied for a visa to be issued to their minor son who still resides in China with a grandparent. That visa has been consistently turned down on the grounds that they cannot demonstrate any professional or economic tie to China that would encourage him to return there. These are the reasons issued in respect of a minor child.

These are general experiences of clients coming to the service. From research which we have published called Voices of Immigrants — The Challenges of Inclusion, these are not isolated cases. They reflect the experience of a large number of people living within our society. Given the fundamental importance of the family within society which is specifically constitutionally protected in Article 41, why do migrants have these experiences and what value do we place on their families, particularly families which have Irish citizens among the family members?

I will briefly go through the written submissions which I have already presented to committee members for their consideration. The three key issues we identified, specifically regarding the family, are migrants and their family reunification entitlements, partnership rights and immigration issues and permission to reside in the State as the parent of an Irish citizen. It is not my intention to go through the written submission in full. I will leave it for committee members to reflect upon. However I wish to underscore a few of the points made in it, first in regard to family reunification and migrants in general.

I would like the committee to note that irrespective of the constitutional provisions upholding the family unit and acknowledging its fundamental importance in society, there are no domestic provisions for the rights of family members to come to Ireland either to visit or for more permanent arrangements. The policies which currently apply in an administrative context that enable people to apply for permission to come here are not based on statute and they are subject to absolute ministerial discretion. In particular, the policy that applies in individual cases may depend on the immigration status of the applicant and the rights and entitlements granted to them may vary significantly depending on whether, for example, they have a work visa, a work authorisation or work permit, and on occasion it may specifically depend on the type of work they do. Some immigrants, irrespective of the fact that they live here legally and are in employment, have no family reunification entitlements. On applying for a visa, the applications have been declined in large numbers for particular categories of people on the grounds that there is no policy for dealing with an application of that nature.

In February 2004 the Tánaiste, Deputy Harney, acknowledged some of the difficulties faced by economic migrants on a daily basis. Some measures of an administrative arrangement were introduced to redress the balance. While that was a positive step it does not go the whole way to acknowledging the family rights of migrants. There is a danger that in encouraging so many people to come here and promoting Ireland as a work destination, we are not fully catering for the rights of the families of economic migrants in particular. There is a danger that, as my colleague already stated, we are perceiving them too much as economic units and workers and not just as people who have their own independent rights and needs for which we must provide. I ask the committee to consider the written submissions more fully in that regard.

Regarding partnership rights and immigration, the organisation, GLUE, which has just made a presentation, set out the issues which personally affect its members. The GLUE organisation does not just deal with a small number of people nor is it an organisation that was formed to lobby in respect of its own cases. We are aware of a significant number of people who have similar difficulties in coming to Ireland because they are in unmarried relationships, be they same-sex or opposite-sex relationships.

At present, the difficulties I have highlighted regarding family reunification entitlements generally are exacerbated if one is in a long-term relationship that is not based on marriage. There is no provision in current administrative arrangements for the granting of visas to people who are in same-sex or opposite-sex unmarried relationships. Although administrative concessions are made in individual cases, there is no clear or consistent arrangement applying to people if they live here and wish to change their status or, more particularly, if they are already out of the State and have not had the luxury of coming here to assert their rights and entitlements in the first place.

The written submissions highlight the current administrative arrangements and I will not go through them here. We have identified a number of solutions to the current immigration difficulties people face. These include introducing measures along the lines that have been adopted in other jurisdictions, especially in the European Union, to deal with immigration related difficulties faced by individuals in this position. The option of civil partnership provides a comprehensive and neat solution to this issue. No doubt the committee will receive many submissions from other groups in this regard.

While legislation or constitutional amendment are pending, the committee could have regard to other recommendations such as encouraging the adoption of administrative arrangements that would provide a solution for people experiencing these difficulties. That has been done in other EU jurisdictions where they were not in a position legally to recognise unmarried relationships and it is something that could be encouraged or recommended by the committee without the need for a constitutional amendment.

The third issue I wish to cover relates to permission to reside in the State as the parent of an Irish child. Conversely, if one reads it the other way, one could ask what are the rights of Irish children within our society to the care and company of their parents. The Irish child undisputably has residency entitlements within the State. I do not intend to elaborate in any great detail on the background to this scenario. I am sure all members are familiar with the discussions that have taken place in the Oireachtas and more generally during the course of the citizenship referendum last year. The background in terms of case law that gave rise to the referendum last year is set out in the written submissions in addition to the current administrative arrangements that are in place for dealing with residency situations.

We pose a number of questions on the final page of our submission which I urge the committee to consider, specifically in regard to the rights of Irish children whose parents may not be afforded residency under the current IBC/05 scheme. I have set them out because the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has indicated quite clearly that, in cases where parents are not granted residency under the IBC/05 scheme or under the previous administrative arrangements, he fully expected parents to take their Irish children with them. Significant issues arise in respect of the rights and entitlements of Irish children who find themselves outside the State. One needs only to have regard to the very tragic case of the Indonesian-Irish child currently being highlighted in the media to realise significant questions arise over the care and custody arrangements of children outside the State who are Irish citizens.

Other issues may arise in respect of parents who are granted residency under the scheme currently being processed. I urge the committee to consider these. If a parent is granted residency in the State on the grounds that he or she is the parent of an Irish child, what will be his or her right to family reunification with a spouse or a minor child who is currently outside the jurisdiction, particularly if that spouse is the parent of the Irish child from whom his or her own rights have derived? As my colleagues mentioned to the committee, under the IBC/05 scheme, part of the package was that parents would sign a statutory declaration acknowledging that they had no legitimate expectation of family reunification or of other members coming to join them in Ireland. The issues that arise are quite considerable and many foresee that a strict blanket policy on family reunification entitlements for this category of persons could give rise to considerable litigation in the courts.

One of the purposes of introducing the IBC/05 scheme was to cut down on the considerable amount of litigation that was arising under the previous administrative arrangements. We all have the opportunity to have a considered debate on the future and the next step after the IBC/05 scheme. What are the rights of Irish children in Ireland to the care and company of their family members? More particularly, what are the rights of legal residents in Ireland to the care and company of their spouses and minor children? As members of society, we all regard the right to be part of a core family unit as fundamental.

I thank the delegates for their presentation. We already received their very detailed and clear written submission. I have no questions to put to the delegation. It has made its position quite clear. I am not sure if any of the other members want to ask questions. We will take on board what the delegates have stated in their submission and will give it due consideration. The committee will meet on several occasions before it publishes its report, which will probably be in September.

It is clear to the committee from having heard many groups that the child should be on the central axis of the family within the Constitution and that all other relationships should revolve around it, irrespective of whether they involve single parents or cohabiting couples. Ms Cosgrave is again emphasising the need to enhance the rights of the child in the Constitution.

I missed the earlier part of the presentation. On the Chairman's point, if we strengthen the rights of the child or propose to do so by way of constitutional amendment, will this address Ms Cosgrave's point about the circumstances of an Irish-born child whose father or mother is in another country?

Ms Cosgrave

If the rights of the child are regarded as paramount and are constitutionally protected, we expect that certain privileges will flow therefrom. One would hope that a logical step would be to ensure, at a minimum, that the child will have the right to the care and company of immediate family members and that making provision in this regard will largely protect it. On occasion, it might not be possible to secure this within the State, but there is no reason it could not be regarded as an appropriate solution in the vast majority of cases in this jurisdiction, such that children in this position would have the right to the care and company of the persons best suited to looking after them, namely, their parents, irrespective of their nationality.

I thank the delegates for their presentation. Much of the information provided is very relevant to a debate that is taking place at present. In this regard, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has indicated some fairly major changes regarding immigration policy. I presume the Immigrant Council of Ireland has already made submissions to the Department in that regard. The changes are of major relevance to any legislation that might be contemplated in this area.

It is certainly on the agenda from a legislative point of view.

The Immigrant Council of Ireland referred to the challenges that arise for us as a State given the new nationalities. It referred to some 160 nationalities and stated that, in 2002, just 6% of our population were non-nationals. Although many of the changes proposed in the presentation could be achieved through legislation, to what extent would constitutional changes in respect of the definition of the family or child accelerate that process?

On legislative change, Ms Cosgrave mentioned the family reunification directive in her presentation. Although she also mentioned its flaws, would Ireland signing up to that directive alleviate some of the problems encountered by the Immigrant Council of Ireland?

If the current work permit system, which is employer-linked, were changed to an employee-linked system, would this help mitigate some of the problems people are facing? Another group that made a presentation to the committee listed some of these problems.

Ms Charlton

I will deal with the employment permit and Ms Cosgrave will handle the legal questions. The issue of exploitation arises frequently in respect of the employment permit. Since the initiation of the Immigrant Council of Ireland, it has advocated that the system should be changed, that all workers should own their own permission to work and that we should move away from the system of bonded labour that currently obtains. Increasingly, the media highlights stories of exploitation and this must be resolved. Even under the existing system, there are very few sanctions. If the Government does not see fit to change the work permit system, it will have to take on board the fact that the available sanctions are not being enforced. Three sanctions have been issued and fines have been very limited. The fines would certainly not deter any rogue or exploitative employer.

Ms Cosgrave

In response to Deputy Ó Snodaigh's comments, Ireland opted out of the family reunification directive introduced by the EU for many reasons. The Immigrant Council of Ireland will not call on Ireland to sign up to it. The provisions of the directive are very limited and do not confer on a family entitlements of any significance. However, the council encourages Ireland to participate quite strenuously in a debate at EU level on managing economic migration, particularly as part of the ongoing discussion in this regard at EU level, particularly by the Commission. We also urge member states to review the provisions of the directive and, when it is more comprehensive, to sign up to some form of common harmonisation procedure at EU level in respect of family reunification entitlements.

On Deputy Ó Snodaigh's question on whether constitutional amendments or legislative amendments are required, we acknowledge that a number of our recommendations do not require significant constitutional amendment. However, we urge the committee to consider, at a minimum, implementing the recommendations we have identified in our written submission, perhaps through comprehensive administrative procedures or, more preferably, through legislation. This would go a significant way towards vindicating the provisions in the Constitution that uphold family unity and protection. Much could be achieved through a comprehensive legislative amendment. The joint committee might recommend legislative change to fulfil current provisions more adequately.

Sitting suspended at 3.50 p.m. and resumed at 3.55 p.m.

We welcome the Irish Council for Civil Liberties which has submitted a comprehensive presentation. I ask Ms Reidy to introduce the members of the group and give us a condensed version of the salient points made in the submission.

Ms Aisling Reidy

I am the director of the Irish Council for Civil Liberties. I am accompanied by Ms Judy Walsh, one of the co-chairs of the Irish Council for Civil Liberties and a lecturer in equality studies in UCD, and Mr. Conor Power, another member of the ICCL executive who is a practising barrister and has also written about family law.

The joint committee has received a written submission which we propose to break down into three sections. We will focus particularly on the question of the constitutional protection given to the family and marriage.

We recommend the recognition of the family in its various forms and the right of everyone to family life, and the enactment of provisions similar to those included in the European Convention on Human Rights, to which the European Convention on Human Rights Act 2003 gives effect, that such rights should only be capable of being interfered with when necessary, in accordance with the law and in the interests of specific legitimate aims such as public safety, the protection of health and the protection of the rights of others, particularly children.

We would like to see the recognition of the right of all persons to marry, with marriage being the union of two persons for life to the exclusion of all others. We would also like to see Article 41.2 removed and the Constitution recognising in a gender neutral way the role of carers in the home and, an issue that many others have raised, giving a voice to children. Article 28 of the South African constitution could act as a model to give effect to this. Those recommendations are based on the three areas we focused on in assessing the Constitution with respect to the State's international human rights obligations. There is a problem surrounding obligations concerning family equality and diversity, particularly that protected under Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights which the constitutional protections do not meet.

There is a question about the right to marry for gay and transsexual persons, which is part of the obligation under the European Convention on Human Rights. It also arises under the European Fundamental Charter of Rights. Several issues arise under the Convention on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women and the Convention on the Rights of the Child with which the Constitution does not comply. We must ensure our constitutional protections reflect those obligations because the Constitution is the key framework for Irish society.

The sort of family the Constitution protects, namely, that based on marriage, no longer reflects the needs, realities or rights of diverse family types. Ireland has been a signatory to the European Convention on Human Rights for several decades and has given effect to it in the European Convention on Human Rights Act 2003 making Article 8 part of our law. There is a wide gap between the protection required by Article 8, which recognises the diverse family forms, and that provided in the Constitution.

Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights regards family in terms of de facto close existing relationships between individuals, and where the substance of a relationship is familial it protects that and does not distinguish between marital and non-marital families. Ireland has several times fallen foul of Article 8 because of its inequal and discriminatory treatment of different family forms and until quite recently, children born within and without the marital form.

During its International Year of the Family in 1994, the United Nations endorsed the definition of family as:

any combination of two or more persons who are bound together by ties of mutual consent, birth and/or adoption or placement and who, together, assume responsibility for, inter alia, the care and maintenance of group members, the addition of new members through procreation or adoption, the socialization of children and the social control of members.

That definition gives real meaning to diverse family forms and is compatible with the sort of family protected under the European Convention on Human Rights. While we do not seek a definition of family within the Constitution we believe that definition encompasses the types of relationships which protect the family.

In public consultation the committee asked, if we recognise the family unit and the rights of each individual, how we balance those rights. We have set out a balancing test in our submission at section 4.15, drawn from the European Convention on Human Rights. It looks at the question of necessity and proportionality in balancing what, in many situations, are conflicting or co-existing rights. Where balancing rights must be met and children are involved the child's rights are paramount. For that to happen the child must be visible in the Constitution.

The balancing test also identifies the rights at stake for everybody involved, the family unit and individuals. It asks the aims of an action that might infringe the rights of any party involved, how severely those rights will be affected and how one achieves balance and minimises the impact on those rights. This may sound abstract or complicated but it is an exercise which members of the Judiciary, the European Court of Human Rights and effective policy-makers use every day in developing policy so it is not too complicated.

Using Article 8 as a model in revising the Constitution would address many of the inequalities which affect fathers, particularly those who are not married to the mothers of their children. In that regard we are clearly out of step with the European Convention on Human Rights. Now that it is part of our domestic law it will be only a matter of time before there are serious challenges in the courts under the European Convention on Human Rights Act if we do not introduce a more equal and less gender-orientated protection for parenting and both parents into the Constitution.

I will hand over to my colleague, Conor Power, who will address one of the other highlights of our submission, namely, the right of all persons to marry.

Mr. Conor Power

Article 41 of the Constitution protects the institutions of marriage and the family. In many cases the Supreme Court has connected these two institutions in an unsurprising way to establish the right of the family based on marriage. The family rights guaranteed by Articles 41 and 42 inhere in the parents, and those of the children of that unit are very strong. Article 41 refers to them as "inalienable and imprescriptible rights". This fundamental language is not used in respect of any other rights, for example, rights to equality, or other personal rights in the Constitution, or the right to marry, which is undefined but guaranteed by the State as personal and recognised in the case of Murray v. Ireland as an unsubstantiated right.

For many couples in the State that is not an issue. The definition of a family based on marriage causes problems for the families it does not cover, not those whom it covers. We can give non-marital families different titles, de facto, “same sex” but generally we should refer to them in sociological and interpersonal terms. They are family units that provide many of the basic parenting and family skills also found in a family based on marriage.

The difficulty of having a Constitution that focuses solely on a family based on marriage is that we give fundamental rights to one institution to the exclusion of the others. The State in its most fundamental document recognises one form of union but not others. We are aware of the effect this had in the past in the different treatment of children born inside and outside marriage. Since the passing of the Status of Children Act 1987 many of the practical effects of that distinction have diminished.

In the past the distinction between the two types of family was used to justify discrimination against children for example, in matters of inheritance rights vis-à-vis their parents. The Status of Children Act remedied that but it indicates the type of anomaly that arises when one assigns certain rights to a particular family to the exclusion of others that perform similar functions.

When this committee deliberates on the definition of marriage it should be conscious that the Constitution does not define marriage but the common law definition drawn from an early case Hyde v. Hyde as “the voluntary union of one man and one woman for life, to the exclusion of all others” is accepted. That is to an extent a loaded statement because it suggests the only family form is heterosexual marriage. For example, some 77,000 cohabiting couples are automatically excluded from this definition, as are 55,000 children of those couples. Several thousand same-sex cohabiting couples cannot marry.

Some might say those who cohabit outside marriage have a choice and could marry but have opted out of the system. That is not true of all these couples. Same-sex couples do not have the right to marry. In theory the individuals could marry partners of the opposite sex but it would be a sham. As same-sex couples they cannot marry which is a breach of a fundamental right. There is a right to marry in the Constitution but in many international documents to which this State has signed up, that must represent the public policy of the State, the right to marry is set out. It is set out in Article 12 of the European Convention on Human Rights, Article 9 of the European Charter of Fundamental Rights Bill and in many other documents.

When examined, particularly the European Convention on Human Rights, the right to marry is worded in a gender neutral and non-discriminatory way. As a logical follow-on, it must mean same sex couples have the right to marry. The Irish Council for Civil Liberties believes the Constitution should permit same sex unions. It also perceives the constitutional definition and protection given to families and marriage must be extended to ensure families not based on marriage, so called de facto families, receive constitutional recognition of their role in care-giving. In saying this we are aware of the many developments, nationally and internationally, that demand this broad approach in the Constitution. The numbers of couples involved are high enough that any reasonable person will take this into account as a serious social issue.

Ireland has international obligations brought home by the incorporation of the European Convention on Human Rights. Last summer the House of Lords, the highest court in England and Wales, defined the word "spouse" to include same sex couples for the United Kingdom to comply with its obligations in the incorporation of the European Convention on Human Rights. Ireland incorporated the convention in a similar way but we also have a fundamental written Constitution which the United Kingdom does not. When the case is before the High Court, these issues will be considered.

The people must be given an opportunity to update these aspects of the Constitution to bring it into line with more modern thought. While some may perceive this as controversial, the Irish Council for Civil Liberties submits it is not. It is not controversial to allow people to live together in union with the recognition of the State or to recognise their caring responsibilities. It is certainly not controversial to introduce this in the Constitution rather than through various piecemeal changes in legislation. I do not believe it would involve the devaluation of marriage as the institution is known. There tends to be a knee-jerk reaction where people argue that if the recognition given to marriage was extended to other cohabiting couples or same sex unions, it would lessen its importance. The Irish Council for Civil Liberties believes it would have a broadening effect, making marriage more appealing and a stronger institution.

Other aspects of European law also emerge. The joint committee will be aware that the Brussels 2 regulation is now in force which may have an indirect impact on this issue. For example, if in a German divorce case ancillary orders are made by a German court and one member of the couple moves to Ireland, the orders must be enforced in the State. States such as Holland have marriages open to same sex couples. A same sex couple divorce must also be recognised in Ireland. I am not sure if the Brussels 2 regulation has moved to the stage where same sex marriages are recognised in EU law. The Commissioner with responsibility for the area seems to believe it has. However, it will await a decision of the European Court of Justice for final determination.

Aspects of same sex unions and other types of civil partnership are being introduced in Europe that will be recognised in Ireland by dint of EU law at a fundamental level. The difficulty is that it is being done at supra-constitutional level. EU law has the fundamental importance of constitutional law within all member states. The people must be given the opportunity to update the Constitution to take account of these changes to allow it to be a more modern and vibrant document, which is inclusive and recognises a multiplicity of family forms.

The Irish Council for Civil Liberties has undertaken a consultation process in this regard with many groups, from which a report has been produced, parts of which have been given, for example, to the interdepartmental group on marriage. While it is a matter for legislation, although the constitutional framework would permit it, the discussion papers on partnership rights and family diversity recommend the extension of marriage to same sex couples and the introduction of civil partnerships which might be described as a lesser form of marriage, allowing same sex and opposite sex couples to enter a union with some of the attributes of marriage but not all of its benefits. This matter can be debated another time. However, it is designed to introduce the question of diversity into family forms and recognise them. A modern democratic state that believes in equality, autonomy and diversity must cater for and facilitate these relationships in a secure legal environment.

I thank the Irish Council for Civil Liberties for its presentation and comprehensive submission, making specific proposals which others did not. The council laid considerable emphasis on Article 9 of the European Charter of Fundamental Rights and Freedoms. It alluded to parts of the charter being incorporated into the European constitution which will cover certain situations. If the European constitutional treaty was adopted, with the charter attached, would that not be adequate? While recourse may not be had to the High Court, it would be to the European Court of Justice. Would this deal with the problems regarding the family?

Several groups have made similar points on the scope of the family. I am not sure that amending the Constitution accordingly would not be controversial. Earlier this afternoon the joint committee saw the capacity of some groups to render issues contentious which would not generally be regarded as such. This aspect of the adoption of the amendment is similar to the one for divorce which was contentious. However, that question was ultimately carried. From that point of view, as well as other aspects, would the incorporation of the convention into the European constitutional treaty be adequate?

Ms Reidy

Will the European Charter of Fundamental Rights and Freedoms supersede other considerations? Yes but it is speculative as to the exact impact it will have. It is not an integral part of the European constitution but an attachment. There has been some debate as to what this will mean.

In affording protection to Irish citizens on the basis that the European constitutional treaty will be adopted, will it be as effective an instrument as including it in the Constitution?

Ms Reidy

Yes and no. The reality is that if it is adopted, the constitution cannot be invoked to prevent Irish law being interpreted in that way and will have to comply with the European Charter of Fundamental Rights and Freedoms. It is not so much a case of an Irish citizen ultimately going to the European Court of Justice to invoke the charter to protect his or her rights. It will be a pity if an Irish citizen needs to resort to a supra-national body rather than being able to go to the national courts. I see the bite of the European charter residing in the fact that ultimately, inevitably, it will have to lead to common EU-accepted interpretations of particular concepts such as the family and the right to marry. One cannot have a right to marry which is different if one is in Denmark, Spain or Ireland, for example, if one had the same right in the European charter of fundamental rights which is adopted at an EU level.

The charter will therefore have a dramatic influence on the way the Constitution is interpreted. Should we wait for that, and use it as an excuse not to change the Constitution? No, but it always looks ridiculous if one's own Constitution is fundamentally at odds with another superior obligation to which one has signed up. It is much better for Ireland to take the lead, meet the challenge and adopt it. If, as a matter of political pragmatism, there are concerns about whether one would get 50.1% of a referendum to accept certain changes, that is an issue. Any referendum should be subjected to proper, informative and widespread public debate. Whatever about marriage, when it comes to issues such as the family and recognising diversity of family forms, and about giving visibility to the child, I believe Irish society has sufficiently matured. I think it recognises different family forms and their need for protection.

If adopted, the EU charter will have a fundamental impact on the interpretation of our own fundamental rights because we will have to comply with a common EU definition of such rights. The European Convention on Human Rights is already part of our law by virtue of the European Convention on Human Rights Act 2003. The problem is that it was not adopted at constitutional level, so while one can have much law reform which forces us to comply and gives protection to other family forms, an imbalance is still being created between what is protected at a constitutional level and what is protected at a statutory level, which we already have.

Ms Judy Walsh

With regard to the controversy surrounding the definition of same-sex marriage, the EU charter definition does not prescribe or mandate that same-sex marriage be recognised but simply opens up that possibility in the future. The onus would shift to the legislature either to open up marriage to same-sex couples or to adopt legislation which is equivalent, like a civil partnership-type Bill. That has happened in other countries such as Belgium and Holland and has ultimately led to the adoption of full marital rights. The issue is not necessarily very controversial.

I welcome the group. This is our third day of these discussions and many issues have arisen. I will be interested to hear the group's views on some of those issues.

We might first consider what a constitution should be — whether it should be an aspirational document containing values and ideals which we hope to achieve, an educative type of document, as one group described it, or if it should be a contemporary reflection of what the state is. Should it hold up a mirror and regulate the circumstances we see around us every day? Which model does the group suggest? Is there a debate in the legal world about such an issue? Judging from the contributions we have heard over the past couple of days, there seems to be such a debate.

The second issue relates to cohabiting couples. We did not settle the argument regarding when such a couple becomes a family, if one defines family in the way it is defined in the EU charter. Must a cohabiting couple register with the State, for example, or is there a presumption after a certain period of time that a cohabiting couple or a family is recognised as such? Are there circumstances in which a cohabiting family could continue to avoid the application of family law, if it wished to stay outside it and not benefit from family legislation?

In a number of cases since about 1998, the Supreme Court has found there are unenumerated rights in the Constitution with regard to children but that the court would not take it upon itself to enumerate them as this was the job of the Legislature. This is what we were told in previous submissions. I am thinking in particular of the case, North Western Health Board v. H.W., involving a PKU screening test, wherein the North Western Health Board tried to identify a child’s right as being superior to a family right. The Supreme Court did not agree with that point of view and would not do so unless there was an immediate risk to the health of the child. We got the impression that the case would probably have been decided differently if a non-marital child was involved because it is only the family based in marriage which is protected under the Constitution and not the other types of families discussed.

Similarly, a point was made in one submission with regard to foster care, where it would not be possible to adopt a child one is fostering if that child originated in a marital family, while one could do so if the child was from a non-marital family. The Constitution therefore protects marital children but in other ways puts them at risk. I would be interested to hear the group's views on that point.

Numerous rights are set out in Article 28 of the South African constitution. Is there any case law on that issue? Do such rights represent the right way to proceed, or is it better to have a simpler statement of children's rights that are unenumerated, and allow the Legislature to spell matters out?

I want to ask about the issue of the father's rights and the biological versus social father. At what points does the father have rights? A purely biological father might have had no involvement with a child. Should he have rights?

Ms Reidy

Under the European Convention on Human Rights, a biological father has parental rights even if he has had almost no relationship with the child. We support that approach. That does not mean there will not be other competing parental rights such as those of the biological mother and a man who has played a "social father" role but may not be the biological father. One has to find a way of allowing participation in decisions about how the interests of the child are looked after. The child has rights under the European Convention on Human Rights, and the father, irrespective of how deep the relationship has been, has recognition of his rights as a father. One should start with those rights, which may then be curtailed by failure to exercise them over a certain period of time. Certain rights exist under the European Convention on Human Rights and the extent to which they may be exercised or curtailed may then be dependent on subsequent behaviour, and the rights of other stakeholders involved.

Mr. Power

Regarding Deputy O'Sullivan's question, there is a slight difference between the ascription of rights and the exercise of those rights. There is sometimes a danger in that if one gives rights to a person who does not seem to deserve them, the child might be stuck with that situation. In any decision regarding the upbringing of a child it would be important to have a welfare provision — the Constitution is currently deficient in that regard — such that the exercise of whatever rights are ascribed is curtailed if they fail to match up to the welfare of the child. That is the safeguard the Deputy might have been seeking when she asked her question.

Deputy Andrews asked a great many questions and we will endeavour to respond. Regarding the Constitution and its function, to some extent when one looks at the interpretation as attempted by the Supreme Court, there are many different approaches. One involves an historical perspective. Do we take the Constitution to mean what it meant in 1937? Generally speaking, the Supreme Court has not taken that approach but suggested the Constitution must be a vibrant and dynamic document that recognises where we came from and where we are today. It is not mutually exclusive to have a document which is a framework, an aspirational and ideological document, and also a reflection of where the country is. It does, however, mean that it should be broad. It means that no group which ought to be given constitutional protection and recognition should be excluded unnecessarily or unreasonably. For example, families based on marriage should be included and families not based on marriage, de facto families, should be given protection. It should be open for them to be recognised in the Constitution as having a role to play in care-giving familial relationships. There is no one defining answer as to what is a constitution. It is a political, moral, aspirational and ideological document. That is the difficulty we all have.

The question of divorce was raised. Many issues that are important to people at gut level are included, as are ones that are aspirationally important. The joint committee will have a very difficult job in bringing together a set of wordings to cover the diverse submissions made. The ICCL submit it ought to take a view that ascribes respect and autonomy, respecting the equality of individuals. That would not diminish the rights of families based on marriage. It would be a recognition of those rights for others outside it. That is a proper role for a constitution.

All the studies are telling us that the ideal is two parents under one roof. That is what we aspire to since it is best for children. I am not arguing there should be added rights for non-marital families but that there is a contradiction between the two. On the one hand, there is the aspiration to have two parents under one roof; on the other, we must reflect the fact that one-parent families are entitled to all the rights of their two-parent counterparts.

Mr. Power

: That is a recognition of diversity and special needs. We all know one-parent families have a higher chance of poverty. That must be addressed. Perhaps the focus is too much on two-parent families regarding service provision. I do not believe the Constitution need define one group to the exclusion of all others. That might be part of the problem. It should be broad enough to deal with both under the same roof. The Deputy raised the issue of cohabitation and asked when a relationship becomes such. This question causes difficulty in social welfare terms.

We propose various models. First, a civil registration provision should be permissible in order that those who do not wish to get married could register a union that might be seen as a lesser form of marriage but with certain of its key features. That, by no means, would allow those who actually cohabit to exclude certain other baseline obligations. We already have such a provision in law. For example, domestic violence legislation extends to cohabitees and those who happen to live together. Safety orders are available to a wide range of persons who live together, while barring orders are available to those who cohabit as husband and wife, as well as spouses. Adult children are also subject to them. There is, therefore, regulation of cohabitation in some respects. If children are involved, the basic principle must always be the welfare of the child. The joint committee will have heard many submissions in recent days but on that issue everyone is singing from the same hymn sheet.

There are two ways of dealing with the matter. If a couple enters into a recognised relationship, be it marriage or civil partnership, the other would be ascribed or prescribed to them. In other words, if one happens to be cohabiting as defined by the Domestic Violence Act 1996, one would become subject to it. At present, the law is a mix of the two. Some couples opt into marriage and some cohabit and because of this become subject to regulation by the Domestic Violence Act 1996.

Deputy Andrews raised the PKU test case involving the North Western Health Board and the H.W. and C.W. case. That is a very important decision since it highlights the role of married parents regarding children and upholds case law from the 1980s that was seen as the high water mark of parental rights. It is a decision one can criticise as being correct or incorrect, depending on one's ideological viewpoint. I would criticise it from a very specific viewpoint.

The Supreme Court endeavoured to decide which of two groups had the right to determine whether a child should have a PKU test done, the health board or the parents. However, it endeavoured to do so without listening to the child. To my mind, that shows the absence of children's rights since there should have been a third voice. The only voices the Supreme Court heard in argument were those of the lawyers for the health board saying it should be allowed to administer the test, even if the parents did not want it, and those of the lawyers for the parents saying they were autonomous and, because of Article 41, should make the decision.

Both viewpoints have pros and cons but the viewpoint not given an independent voice before the Supreme Court was that of the child. There was no independent articulation of the interests, views or welfare of the child. I am not saying the child could have had views in this case, since it was an infant, but it certainly had welfare and interests. There should have been an amicus curiae brief to articulate these views in court. However, even if the child was older, we do not have a proper system to represent children’s issues, something the European Convention on Human Rights demands. Many other international bodies, including the Committee on the Rights of the Child, have time and again stated this is a failure, not just in Ireland but in many countries. Perhaps the Ombudsman, the office established by the Oireachtas several years ago and now filled, might be able to fulfil this role but it is a very important gap and the court’s decision might have been better and stronger had the court heard those views.

Ms Walsh

On children's rights, Deputy Andrews asked whether it might be preferable to leave the question unenumerated and stipulate that the Legislature should fill in the details. We do not believe that would be satisfactory, the principal reason being that we have a very strong form of judicial review that effectively allows courts to veto Acts of the Oireachtas. One has a considerable gap in legal certainty without specifically enumerated rights when the courts fashion what currently falls under the heading of Article 40.3 on a case by case basis. For that reason alone — maintaining the integrity of the separation of powers — children's right should be enumerated clearly.

Deputy Andrews also asked whether section 28 of the South African constitution was a good model in that regard. We believe it is. In case law the courts have emphasised that the reference to children's rights being paramount does not simply mean they are important but that they override all other considerations. In effect, that has removed, through South African case law, many of the inequalities between married and unmarried couples since the courts have construed it as a matter of children's rights. One is not only discriminating between parents but against children.

We have mentioned that, as it stands, the Constitution provides special protection for marriage only. Treoir has raised the fact that it has led to children remaining in long-term foster care depending on whether the parents are married to each other. In South Africa many of those inequalities have been removed since a child should be available for adoption, whether the parents are married. It is a matter of children's rights. In the same way, a child should have a right to have both parents recognised as guardians since it is important to his or her stability and security in questions of maintenance and so on. I ask the joint committee, when it examines the special protection of marriage, to tie this into the consideration of children's rights since that is the nub of the matter. It is not really about adults.

I do not know whether anyone else has raised this matter but section 28 of the South African constitution refers to the socio-economic rights of children. I know that the joint committee will consider the overall question of socio-economic rights but we believe that including children's socio-economic rights is of paramount importance, particularly in the light of Irish case law. The committee may be aware of the case of T.D. and others v. the State which concerned the rights of children who were homeless because their parents could no longer care for them. In the High Court Mr. Justice Kelly ordered various Ministers to provide secure units for the children concerned since the plan had not been complied with. The Supreme Court overturned that order, not on the merits of the case as such but on the basis that the Constitution did not empower the courts to enter a domain of the Executive since it involved the expenditure of money.

We argue that the courts should be given that competence regarding extremely vulnerable children. It should be explicitly stated in the Constitution that the State has a direct obligation towards children whose parents can no longer care for them. That would remove the problem with the separation of powers. The courts would welcome this. If one looks at how South African case law has played out, one sees that it has not led to a usurpation by the courts of the ordinary role of the Legislature, the Executive and so on. They have stated they will review state policy and see whether it is reasonable and addresses the children whose needs are most acute. A reasonable policy is one that looks after homeless children first and then children in lesser situations of deprivation and so on. The question is referred back to the Legislature in order that it can come up with a plan that accords with the constitution.

I thank the Irish Council for Civil Liberties for its contribution. We will conclude this session of the meeting and suspend proceedings for two minutes before the next session begins.

Sitting suspended at 4.41 p.m. and resumed at 4.43 p.m.

The next item on the agenda is the presentation by the Christian Solidarity Party, represented by Mr. Cathal Loftus, president and Mr. Michael O'Brien, general secretary. The delegates are very welcome.

Before we begin I must remind visitors that members of this committee have absolute privilege, but the same does not apply to witnesses appearing before it. I now invite the delegates to make their presentation, which will take approximately six to eight minutes. It will be followed by a question and answer session.

Mr. Cathal Loftus

I am Cathal Loftus and Michael O'Brien accompanies me. We sent in a written submission to the committee previously. I propose to quickly run through the points in that submission. I have made some handwritten notes and I would like to comment on some of the earlier contributions.

On 30 January 2005 we responded to the request from the Joint Committee on the Constitution and made a written submission. We are now making our verbal submission. We are not aware of any widespread demands to amend the Constitution in so far as articles dealing with the family are concerned. Ireland has been well served by these articles and given the importance to society of the sound principles they enunciate, they should not be changed without very good reason.

As this committee is aware the legal framework for the family in Ireland is defined by Bunreacht na hÉireann, specifically by Articles 40 to 42, inclusive. Questions have been put to us by the committee regarding these articles and we are responding to them in the order in which they have been posed.

The first question is how the family should be defined. The family is the bedrock of society and must be understood as being founded on marriage of one man and one woman. Within marriage the mutual gift of self by husband and wife creates an environment in which children can be born and develop their potentialities, become aware of their dignity and prepare to face their unique and individual destines. Marriage, by its nature, is a lifelong partnership and therefore provides stability. The growth and development of children, which extends over many years, requires this stability. As the fundamental nucleus of society the family has a right to the full support of the State in order to carry out fully its particular mission.

How should we strike the balance between the rights of the family as a unit and the rights of the individual members? Existing provisions in the Constitution between the family as a unit and individual members give a fair balance. Article 40 covers personal rights, which are common to all citizens. If the law needs to be strengthened, for instance, to deal with the abuse of children, then such legislation should be enacted. If there is a grave violation of mutual rights within a family, public authorities should restore his or her rights to the individual victim. However, those in charge of public affairs should not go beyond these limits.

Is it possible to give constitutional protection to families other than those based on marriage? Society needs to protect the institution of marriage. Marriage is a lifelong commitment which is necessary for the stability of the family. Any pressure nowadays to consider as legally equivalent to the union of spouses forms of union which lack this lifelong commitment should be strongly resisted. Members of families which are not based on marriage have the protection of the personal rights listed under Article 40 of the Constitution. Stability really matters for children and people are more likely to stay together if they are married. A statistic quoted in a recent debate in the United Kingdom, showed that within five years of a child's birth only 8% of married couples had split up compared with 52% of cohabitees and 25% of those who marry after the birth of a child.

Should gay couples be allowed to marry? No, marriage is not just any relationship between human beings. It has its own nature, essential properties and purpose. To grant legal recognition for homosexual unions would be to radically redefine marriage. Homosexual unions are not able to contribute to the procreation and survival of the human race. Society owes its continued survival to the family founded on marriage. We recognise there are people with a homosexual orientation and we would condemn any unjust discrimination in their regard. Provisions in law, as it applies to all citizens, can be availed of by all people in homosexual unions to protect their rights in matters of common interest.

Is the Constitution's reference to a woman's "life within the home" a dated one that should be changed? Certainly not. Society is greatly helped when the work of women in the home is recognised and respected by all for its irreplaceable value. While women have the same right as men to perform various public functions, wives and mothers should not, in practice, be compelled to work outside the home. It should be ensured that their families can live and prosper in a dignified way, even when they themselves devote all their time to the family. Government policy in this matter should be influenced by an awareness of the pivotal role of motherhood in producing the type of citizens necessary for a stable family and society. At the moment a large number of mothers with young children have to work, irrespective of what their emotions and instincts tell them. Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance.

Should the rights of a natural mother have express constitutional protection — what rights should a natural father have, and how should they be protected? Both the natural mother and the natural father should have the same rights under legislation This legislation should also set out the obligations of these parents to their children. It is not possible or desirable that an attempt should be made to amend the Constitution to cater for every departure from the traditional family.

Should the rights of the child be given an expanded constitutional protection? We believe that children's rights are covered under the Constitution. Any deficiencies which are seen to exist in present legislation should be corrected.

Does the Constitution need to be changed in view of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child? We feel that Bunreacht na hÉireann has sufficient child centred Articles. What is perceived to be a right in other countries would not necessarily be so viewed in Ireland. For instance, the most fundamental right of a child, the right to life, is calmly set aside by the so-called right to abortion. Legislation permitting abortion has been enacted in many countries. The words "inalienable" and "imprescriptible" in Article 41.1.1° should not be removed from the Constitution, as it will only weaken the family right and increase the power of the State.

There are newspaper reports that representations on behalf of one parent families suggest that there is a connection between the poverty of one parent families and the lack of official status that is given to two parent families. This assertion is not valid and should not be the basis of any experimental tinkering with the Constitution. Coincidence is not necessarily proof of cause and effect. Newspaper reports and representation by Barnardos seem to suggest that marriage makes it hard for adoption processes. It is insufficient grounds for amendment that difficulties may arise. Traffic lights should not be abolished because some people cannot discriminate red from green. Both representations have expressed concern for what they call the best interests of the child. That is not as simple as it sounds, as it implies that the State rather than the parents would decide those so-called best interests.

I thank Mr. Loftus for his presentation. He is recommending a very minimalist approach to changes to the Constitution and he is not alone in that view. The family based on marriage represents the Christian model. It may even be specifically the Catholic model, as the Church of Ireland will bless second marriages. Divorce is now permitted under the Constitution, so that is now a fact. How do we deal with second unions? These can be very loving unions. The natural parent of a child of a first marriage may have abandoned it, but the step-parent in the second marriage may look after the child very well. Many contributors to this debate regard the lack of enumerated rights of the child as the Constitution's most serious defect. How can we protect children that are not within the nuclear family unless we do so through a constitutional amendment that affords them certain inalienable rights? It is a matter of fact that many children belong to single parent families or to families whose parents are in second relationships. If we are to focus on the protection of the child, how can we do that without an amendment to the Constitution that gives the child specific protection?

Mr. Loftus

That is a difficult question. I am not a lawyer and I will not attempt to be one. When we speak about the family based on marriage, then I presume that the second union is the family based on marriage. Where people have divorced the first union has ceased to be. When defining marriage, it is not just a notion of Catholic marriage. There is a feeling that because we are Catholics, we should not impose our idea of marriage upon other people. The idea of one man, one woman and however many children God sends them is reasonably widespread. It is not an exclusively Catholic concept and it is shared very widely. Marriage derived from cohabitation in northern Europe and formalisation in southern Europe, especially in Rome. In early medieval times, the church brought those two ideas together and a kind of legal status was conferred on the union. This union was not completed without cohabitation and consummation, so it represented a fusion of northern and southern European tradition. Roman law was pre-Christian as was the northern European tradition.

Let us assume the committee left the family provisions of the Constitution as they are. Why would we then not go on to include the rights of the child as a separate entity?

Mr. Michael O’Brien

The child is a person and under the Constitution all persons have rights. While it is desirable to mention the child specifically under the family provisions, if the family is to be broken up by divorce, the child remains a person and has rights. There is nothing to prevent the legislator from legislating to give that child whatever rights a person would need to have. It is not as if the child is being abandoned under the Constitution as it is currently framed. There are provisions which deal with non-marital cases. If a couple divorce, I presume a non-marital situation then exists in reality.

Mr. Loftus stated that the reference to a woman's life within the home was not dated and should certainly not be changed. He recognised the women's right to life within the home. Some of the submissions received stated that there are many situations where the father is in the home and that the father in the home should also be recognised.

Mr. Loftus

I know of couples who have arranged things in that way. It is an interesting aside. I do not think there will be such a paradigm shift in parenting. Traditionally, mothers did the most nurturing in the home. I think most young children would prefer to be with their mother. They might enjoy being with their father, but if they want to be cared for properly, they will turn to their mothers. It has been my experience that daddies are useless. Many women wish to spend more time with their families. It is against the economic wishes of society, which wants everyone out there contributing to the economy. Decent mothers who step out of remunerated employment to attend to this very important and enjoyable work are making a significant long-term contribution to the economy. The notion that a woman should not be obliged to leave the home to support her family unless she so wishes, as set out in the Constitution, was a noble and decent ideal.

The delegation's document states, "we are not aware of any widespread demand to amend the Constitution". What is its reply to those who observe the Constitution was drafted in 1937 when society was completely different? At that time, 50% of the workforce were employed in agriculture while the corresponding figure today is 6%. Many family units in the 1930s were based around small farm holdings. The Constitution has since been amended to reflect changing social mores such as the provision for divorce. Does the delegation believe it is wise for the committee to look to a constitutional provision that was framed in an entirely different social context from that which pertains in modern Ireland?

Mr. Loftus

I do not subscribe to the notion that the provisions of the Constitution should remain unchanged for all time. The Constitution should be a dynamic and interactive entity. However, although I was not born until 1946, I contend we are not dealing with a total change in society. There has been much social and demographic change and wonderful economic improvements in most people's circumstances. People have access to better education, housing, clothing and nourishment. In many ways, Ireland is a much improved society to that which existed in 1937. We are not fighting against modernity.

However, the instincts of children have not changed dramatically over the years in that they still crave the security of family. Younger children in particular love their routine and dislike any changes in this regard. Stability is something children insist upon to some extent and they will demand consistency from their parents. The needs of the human heart have not changed a great deal from biblical times to the present. The Constitution represents a snapshot in time but many of its provisions remain valid today.

Mr. O’Brien

While society's mores may have changed radically from those which prevailed in 1937, the principles enshrined in the Constitution do not impinge on those mores. For example, people may be more sexually active but most get married and the constitutional provisions that relate to marriage remain valid for them. Today's youngsters who claim their behaviour differs from that of their parents do not necessarily find the provisions relating to the family unacceptable. The changes in society mean we take as a given that those provisions are unacceptable to many but this does not reflect reality.

Some 90% of cohabiting couples are married, for instance, and the remaining 10% can choose to get married. However, it is argued that the Constitution should be amended to take account of the situation of this small percentage of cohabitees. It is untenable to amend the Constitution continually to meet every departure from the norm. Principles may evolve in order to meet changing circumstances but the basic core value of a given principle should not be set aside lightly.

G.K. Chesterton said "Wherever you have Ireland you have the family and it counts for a great deal". The family is the bedrock of society. This is not solely a Christian concept but is indicative of society the world over using its common sense to recognise the importance of man and woman coming together, procreating, creating stable families and imparting values to their children. Society is founded upon this continuing process of marriage and family creation through the generations.

I do not contend that those with another view have no rights but to have every idea mooted today written into the Constitution would demonstrate to our young people that we have no values and no objective truth. It is unacceptable that we should take a "whatever you are having yourself" approach and I would be disappointed if my own children were to say I had not instilled in them the sense that good values do not change according to the weather. In endeavouring to hold onto what is good we will not deprive anyone of anything.

Cohabitees are entitled to get married if they so choose. I read a newspaper article today in which a man spoke about how he and his partner had broken up after living together for six months. When people come together to form a family there must be an underlying concept that such a union is a lifelong commitment whereby each is for the other and their children are for both. To amend the Constitution according to the dictates of changing fashions means we will write a novel rather than a Constitution.

I thank Mr. Loftus and Mr. O'Brien for their contributions. All members will have access to the documentation they have supplied.

Mr. O’Brien

I apologise that our notes are handwritten. We did not realise they would be circulated to committee members.

They are quite legible.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.10 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Friday, 22 April 2005.

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