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JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE CONSTITUTION debate -
Wednesday, 9 Dec 2009

Electoral System Review: Discussion.

I welcome Professor Richard Sinnott and Professor Kenneth Benoit to the meeting. The committee is continuing its series of meetings as part of its review of the electoral system. Today, we will consider alternative electoral systems and the process of electoral reform. In doing so, we will evaluate our current electoral system under a set of criteria and then look at alternative systems, primarily the MMP electoral system, and compare them with our electoral system. We will also consider the process of changing an electoral system and how the practical implementation of electoral reform might unfold. The prepared papers have been circulated to members.

Members of the committee have absolute privilege but that same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee.

Professor Richard Sinnott

One is hesitant in the circumstances of coming to talk to professional and long-standing politicians about the way in which they are elected to Dáil Éireann. With that caveat I will try to address some of the issues raised in discussions with the secretariat when I agreed to come along.

PR-STV is a highly distinctive electoral system. It differs fundamentally from the other two main variants of electoral system, from the plurality system by virtue of its proportionality and from PR list systems by virtue of putting the focus directly on individual candidates. Both of these distinctive features are seen as weaknesses by critics of the system. The first line of criticism is that it produces results that are too proportional and that are conducive to unstable government. This is easily dealt with. PR-STV produces moderate rather than extreme proportionality; plus, on the Gallagher index of disproportionality, Ireland scores 6.2% compared to an average 11.8% for single member plurality systems, the type of system they use in Great Britain, and 4.8% for list systems. Ireland is in between, and the extent to which it is in between is even clearer if one looks at particular cases.

Ireland's score of 6.2% contrasts strongly with, on the more disproportional side, a score of 17.3% and, on the near perfectly proportional side, a score of 0.99% for the Netherlands. Proportionality or disproportionality can vary extensively, depending on the electoral system and depending on a few other factors which I will deal with later.

One can also look at the issue of proportionality election by election and party by party within Ireland. Fianna Fáil benefits most from the modest PR-STV bonus in share of seats relative to share of votes. This is in line with the tendency for all electoral systems to give a bonus to the largest party or parties. In contrast, the Labour Party is more often than not at a deficit in terms of vote-seat ratio. Figure 1 in the submission to the committee illustrates the bonus-deficit trends in the seat-vote ratio for Fianna Fáil and the Labour Party. Members will note that the periods when Fianna Fáil's bonus has been pulled back to something almost neutral coincides with periods when there has been extensive collaboration and coalition-seeking or coalition government formation, so a coalition pact helps to reduce the disproportionality of the system.

That depends on which coalition one is looking at.

Professor Richard Sinnott

The unstable government criticism is also not persuasive in the Irish case. PR-STV in Ireland has been associated with alternating periods of party fragmentation and party consolidation as shown in figure 2 and so could not be the cause of either phenomenon. We can discuss the exact measures used in figure 2 in particular in question time.

The second main line of criticism of PR-STV is that it devalues parties. Thus, a very prominent American political scientist, Richard Katz, has argued:

the choice offered by list-system PR ... is a choice within party, while the choice offered under STV [this is his critical point] is a choice without regard to party. The effect has been to offer voters under STV a wider choice, but one which in terms of the arguments used by its advocates, is less meaningful.

For the information of Professor Sinnott, he may use the keyboard underneath his laptop to move the figures on the screen.

Professor Richard Sinnott

The predominant line in the graph shows the proportion of the vote in successive general elections won by the two main parties. It is an indication of the degree to which there is a consolidation or a focusing of the party system around two main parties as opposed to the other periods where that figure drops and there is a good deal of party fragmentation. The chart divides up the electoral periods since the 1930s, showing a pattern that alternates between periods where that red line is very high, indicating a high concentration on the two main parties, and periods where it falls. This characterises the period since the late 1980s, the period we are currently in, as a period of relative party fragmentation, the point being, however, that we have had the same electoral system all the time so the same electoral system cannot be the cause or be held responsible for either consolidation or fragmentation.

In place of PR-STV, Katz argues for a small-district PR list system, in part on the grounds that it provides "the kind of parties needed for effective implementation of the public will". It may be, however, that the party versus non-party dichotomy is overstated by Katz in the phrase "choice without regard to party". It is true that the choice in PR-STV is not tied to party; instead, it is open and flexible, in that it elicits more information from the voter and places less constraint on the kind of information that can be transmitted. This means that voters can vote on a party basis if they wish, and the evidence from the analysis of transfer patterns suggests that to a considerable extent they do so.

The other side of the coin of the alleged devaluation of parties is the argument that PR-STV is responsible for the "excessive" constituency orientation of TDs. That Deputies do a great deal of constituency work is undeniable. That this is due in some definitive way to the electoral system is debatable. For one thing, it is clear there are other causes of the constituency service role, including fundamental features of Irish political culture, the small size of Irish society, inadequate parliamentary resources and procedures, problems in the administrative system, and the weakness of local government. In short, it is clear that the constituency service role is due to a number of different factors and it is likely that the electoral system is a contributory factor but not the main determinant. It should also be noted that the constituency service role can have positive aspects, namely, that of keeping public representatives in touch with the real problems of ordinary people, thus enhancing their input into future legislative proposals and contributing to the accountability of the system. This is a reminder that in evaluating any electoral system one should bear in mind that elections are designed to recruit representatives of the people, not policy experts or individuals with this or that specialist background.

The positive aspects of PR-STV are summarised in the Jenkins report, which in the course of its evaluation of the options for a future British electoral system, described STV in multi-member constituencies, PR-STV, as:

a system which has several substantial advantages. It maximises voter choice, giving the elector the power to express preferences not only between parties but between different candidates of the same party. It achieves a significantly greater degree of proportionality [interestingly, than the British system]. It avoids the problem of having two classes of member, as is the case with the Additional Member System [the German system being most quoted in this regard as an example of an additional member system]. It also avoids the likelihood of fostering a proliferation of small splinter parties, and does this without the need for setting any arbitrary threshold. It has long worked with, on the whole, beneficial results in the Republic of Ireland.

This is a quote from the Independent Commission on the Voting System, 1998.

It is also crucial to look at PR-STV from the point of view of the voter. PR-STV provides the voter with a much wider range of options than most, if not all, other systems. The voter can vote exclusively on candidate criteria, exclusively on party criteria — which gives rise to the phenomenon of alphabetical voting — or, most often, on a combination of both. The combined option allows the voter to reconcile party and candidate preferences by deciding which party to support and then transferring within the chosen party. The voter may then repeat this process with his or her second choice party or may pursue a candidate-centred approach at this point. Using the data for the three e-voting constituencies in the 2002 election, figure 3 shows the extent to which voters exercised these options in these three cases. I have provided the committee with data from the three e-voting constituencies where we have an otherwise unavailable picture of the tendencies of voters in casting their vote, and in particular how they utilised their preferences. The figures indicate a very high level of utilisation, shown in the top left hand corner of the graph, but after three preferences have been expressed by the voter, there is a significant drop-off in the rate and then it drops rapidly thereafter and only quite a small proportion of voters go on to vote the full party ticket. On the other hand, voters who express preferences to Nos. 4, 5 and 6 are obviously using the system extensively.

It would obviously be a full party ticket but not a full ballot because there would not be many more than three candidates from an individual party in any elections. People may consider they do not want to indicate a preference beyond their party preference. What is remarkable is the similarity of the pattern in all three constituencies.

Professor Richard Sinnott

That is the most striking aspect of the data. Not only does the pattern obtain across the parties, but the pattern is almost identical across the three constituencies. There is some fundamental process at work that we have not fully interpreted. The important point is that it illustrates both the availability and relative usage of the options of indicating preferences. When I lecture students about PR-STV, one of the most important points to get across is that this is a single vote — people only have one vote. There is often a misconception and voters often inform canvassers that they will give each of them a vote. It is only a single vote, but I do not need to say that to this audience.

Is Professor Sinnott talking about the full ballot paper?

Professor Richard Sinnott

It is the full ballot paper.

Therefore, in cases where only one member of a party is standing, the likelihood is that the voter will vote 1, 2, 3 and then it will drop off.

Professor Richard Sinnott

That is right. It is what is generally known in the literature as "party plumping". That phenomenon is less obvious now than it used to be. There was a time, when party plumping particularly for Fianna Fáil, was extremely high.

In the case of the Labour Party which generally has only one or possibly two candidates, the trend seems to be exactly the same.

Professor Richard Sinnott

Yes. I wish to emphasise the source of the data. To my permanent amazement, the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government after that general election simply put on its website the information from all the voting papers of the votes cast in that election. There was no breach of confidentiality there because obviously one had no idea of the part of the constituency from which the votes had come. They could not be related to tally data or boxes. It was just the general picture. It provides a fascinating insight into the operation of the PR system.

It is interesting that many key seats are determined by low preferences. They will be determined by a tiny proportion of the electorate who continue beyond the fourth or fifth preference on the ballot paper.

Professor Richard Sinnott

Yes. The fact that voters have only one single vote, combined with the fact that that one vote is transferable, does away with much of the problem of tactical voting which is a severe problem, particularly in plurality systems. Voters can vote sincerely, knowing that the system minimises vote wastage, although it does not quite do away with it.

I was asked to address the issue of participation. It is difficult to obtain hard information and identify the effects of the system on voter participation. Voter turnout in the only other country to use the PR-STV system for elections to the Lower House of Parliament — Malta — is extremely high at more than 90%. Therefore, in one case the percentage is in the 90s, while in the other it is in the high 60s or, when averaged over a long enough period of time, more than 70%. This indicates that the PR-STV system can be associated with different outcomes.

One must also consider the alternatives to the PR-STV system. I know the committee has been doing this extensively. For a variety of reasons, the plurality system which has been twice rejected by the electorate is a non-starter. At the other end of the spectrum, the list system is also unattractive for two main reasons — a closed list system would, by definition, do away completely with the candidate choice to which Irish voters are accustomed and attached, while an open or preferential list system would not do away with the intra-party competition at electoral level which is alleged to be the main disadvantage of the PR-STV system and the reason for proposing a preferential list system. If we want a preferential element in the electoral system and if it is to be at all significant, in the Irish context it will take place very much around issues of constituency service and that aspect of the role of a Deputy.

This leaves a mixed system as the only plausible alternative. The danger in the Irish case is that such a system would exacerbate the two-tier character of the Dáil and the division between those with a mainly policy-making orientation and those with a mainly constituency service orientation and that this division could run along party lines. This would result in one party disproportionally elected with a constituency service orientation, with the other party more likely to be elected within the proportional list element of the system. Thus it could well happen that a number of politicians would be assiduously cultivating a particular constituency or geographical area. All the evidence indicates that in Ireland such competition would mainly take the form of provision of a constituency service.

I wish to cover by-elections in a PR-STV system context. Assuming the committee were to advise to stick with the PR-STV system, the question remains as to how casual vacancies should be filled. In order to assess the appropriateness of by-elections as a means of filling casual vacancies in a PR-STV system context, it is necessary to examine the logic of the PR-STV system. The system has two main features — a single transferable vote and multi-seat constituencies. The addition of multi-seat constituencies to the single transferable vote element transforms what would otherwise be an absolute majority system of 50% plus one into a proportional system, the degree of proportionality depending on the number of seats per constituency. This can be seen by observing how the quota or threshold for election changes as the number of seats in a constituency increases, starting out from the single-seat majoritarian system.

It is really embarrassing for me to make the next point. The formula for calculating the quota is the total number of valid votes divided by the quota, plus one. Who in this room does not already know that well? As Figure 3 shows, multi-seat constituencies bring about a systematic reduction in the size of the quota as the size of the constituency, in terms of the number of seats allocated to it, is increased. Thus in a single seat constituency the quota is half the votes plus one. In a two-seat constituency the quota is one third plus one, in a three-seat constituency it is one quarter plus one, in a four-seat constituency it is one fifth plus one, in a five-seat constituency, it is one sixth plus one, etc. One could go on if one continued beyond the current guideline of a maximum of five seats.

The essential relationship between the number of seats in contention and the size of the threshold that a candidate must reach in order to be elected makes by-elections an unsuitable means of filling vacancies in a PR-STV system. Although there have been exceptions, notably in the 1920s, because a by-election almost always has only one seat in contention, the quota is, therefore, 50% plus one. This raises the bar or threshold for election very substantially compared with what it was in the constituency in question in the preceding general election. If the seat to be filled had been held by a small party or a minority of any kind, reliance on the by-election procedure to fill the vacant seat will almost certainly deprive that party or minority of the seat which the result of the general election conducted under the PR-STV system had given it.

One would imagine, in theory, that would be the truth. In practice, no Government has won a by-election here for approximately 20 years. Neither is it the case that the larger parties always win. In a recent by-election, an Independent seat was won by an Independent candidate.

Professor Richard Sinnott

That was because we were and are living in exceptional times.

No Government has won a by-election for more than 20 years.

Professor Richard Sinnott

That is my next point. Half the difficulty is the failure to sustain or preserve the representation of minorities. I know the committee has spoken to representatives of minorities as part of its deliberations about the electoral system. That aspect of it is quite important. It also has implications for the formation of Governments. The strong tendency for Governments to lose by-elections means that as the Dáil term goes on, a Government can be in increased danger of losing its majority.

Professor Richard Sinnott

I wish to respond to a point made by Deputy Howlin. If a vacated seat was held by a member of the sole or main governing party, the gap between its vote and the by-election threshold is likely to be smaller. The threshold is still likely to be extremely difficult to reach, given the tendency for voters in second-order elections to vote against the Government and the tendency for Opposition parties to encourage their supporters to use their transfer options to cast their single transferable vote against the Government. Due to differences in the size of the quota, the pattern of representation that results from a by-election is highly likely to differ substantially from the pattern that resulted from the original general election. This distortion makes by-elections an entirely unsuitable method of filling the casual vacancies that occur in a system of proportional representation.

The use of by-elections to fill casual vacancies is extremely rare in countries that use proportional representation. In general, list systems of proportional representation solve the problem of filling casual vacancies by simply taking the next name on the list of the party of the member who created the vacancy. The use of by-elections to fill vacancies is least likely to occur in list systems of proportional representation and most likely to occur in single member plurality systems of the kind used in the United Kingdom. As the systems used in Germany and New Zealand are mixed systems that fall somewhere between the list system and the single member plurality system, they are of particular interest. The German rule for filling vacancies is that "the vacant seat shall be filled by an appointment from the Land list of that party for which the departed member stood at the election". The German electoral law also states that "if the list is exhausted, the seat shall remain vacant". The only circumstance in which an election is held in Germany to fill a vacancy is when the departing member had been elected as the constituency member for a group of voters or a party that had not been allowed to submit a land list in the election. In these very limited circumstances, a replacement election is held. In New Zealand, a list vacancy is filled in a manner very similar to that which obtains in Germany, whereas a vacancy arising from the departure of a constituency-based MP is filled by holding a by-election. This could be seen as using a proportionality criterion for the seats filled by proportional representation, while using a first first-past-the-post criterion for the seats filled by the single member plurality part of the system. Given the centrality of the proportional representation principle in Ireland, as is evident from our Constitution, it seems that the lesson to be drawn from the German and New Zealand cases is that the co-option of a member of the same party is preferable to holding by-elections as a means of filling casual vacancies. I will be happy to answer any questions.

I thank Professor Sinnott for his very informative and thought-provoking presentation. I am sure the main party in the current Government would agree with the final point he made. I ask Professor Kenneth Benoit to begin his presentation.

Professor Kenneth Benoit

I will speak briefly about the process of reforming electoral systems. I will not evaluate any particular system or propose alternatives to the current system. I will speak about the process by which electoral systems are changed, in practice, and about some of the issues and considerations involved. I will mention some of the historical reasons for the changes that have been made to electoral systems.

The extension of the electoral franchise in many European systems over the last decade and a half, for example with the introduction of universal suffrage, created a demand for representation by groups that had previously been excluded. When labour groups were given the franchise, they found that the existing party structures, which were typically reinforced by electoral systems that had restricted the participation of smaller parties, were unacceptable and they demanded more open systems. That historical change led to the introduction of systems of proportional representation in most of continental Europe. Voter realignments in some systems caused similar patterns to develop. There was an absence of stability in some of the party systems of the pre-war and inter-war period, particularly the French system. That instability resulted from social and demographic changes, political changes and unstable institutions. It often caused Governments to modify their electoral systems.

When electoral competition was introduced in eastern Europe — to stay with the European case — new electoral systems were needed. Interestingly, most of the communist systems had very detailed electoral laws until 1989. The Soviet Union had a very detailed electoral law, with regular elections. The law prescribed when elections would be held, how candidates would be selected and the manner in which voting would take place. There was usually one party and one candidate. One usually had to consciously cross out the name of the candidate if one did not wish to vote for him or her. If one simply dropped a marked paper in a box, that would be seen as a vote for the candidate. It is obvious that laws like that could not stand and had to be changed. The use of a new system was required by each country that changed from a single-party or authoritarian state to a democratic state, or underwent some other major regime change as part of its process of national independence. The creation of the Irish State in 1922, along with other episodes, led to the introduction of the current system. There were several stages at which electoral systems had to be adopted.

Electoral change has taken place as a result of simple political manipulation in democracies with established systems that have not undergone major social, political or institutional regime change. Electoral systems are quite easy to manipulate, in comparative terms. Most constitutions are very difficult to change, but most electoral systems are not.

Ireland is an exception owing to the rule in place for changing its electoral system. Under the constitutional enshrinement in the 1937 Constitution, there is a specification that the PR-STV system will be used. Twice in Irish experience there were majority votes in both Houses of the Legislature to change the system in favour of a first past the post system. Both attempts were rejected by referendum in 1959 and 1969 because of the constitutional requirement. It is not the case that electoral law must be approved by the public in a referendum but that any constitutional change must be approved by the public in a referendum. Most systems do not contain this provision. In France, Italy and many other countries a simple majority vote of the Legislature is sufficient. In the Westminster system in the United Kingdom a simple majority vote of Parliament would be sufficient to change the electoral system to anything Parliament wished. As a result, political manipulations often take place in such systems. I will point to a few of these shortly.

What are some of the general political considerations involved in changing electoral systems? Many types of political institution have been devised, some of which are designed to make matters simpler and easier and provide a general public good. However, electoral systems are different. The rules for slicing a pizza among a group of hungry college students apply to some extent in that someone will get a bigger share only if someone else gets a smaller one. In a Legislature in which the number of seats is fixed, any electoral rule which benefits a larger party will harm a smaller party and vice versa. Electoral systems which are more proportional will benefit a greater number of typically smaller parties than a more restrictive, majoritarian system which, by its character, benefits fewer, larger parties.

For these reasons, debates on electoral reform typically do not have the character of wise people debating the best institutions for everyone in the general public good. The most noted feature of electoral system reform is the debate in which parties of different sizes calculate their political considerations, try to determine what will be best or worst for them and evaluate the process in these terms. While we can make whatever arguments we wish before this committee or the public about what is in the greater good, what is good for representation or what is meaningful to voters, in my research in many contexts the strongest finding to emerge is that political parties typically make decisions on electoral reform based on political considerations, which are typically partisan and office-seeking in nature.

Incumbent Legislatures and legislators usually have their interests tied to the status quo. This is evident in proposals in many systems where it would be sensible to reduce the size of the Legislature. Typically, one will not be able to reduce the size of a Legislature by having the Legislature in question take a vote on the matter. I will speak to some of the mechanisms for overcoming this problem. It is a little like playing Russian roulette where one does not know who will bite the bullet to the extent that one knows that if one shrinks the Legislature by two thirds, one third of those voting on the proposition will not be present following the subsequent election, assuming that no new parliamentarians are elected.

The legitimacy of new rules is a key consideration. For this reason, especially in transitional democracies, it is often the case that some extraordinary forum will be called to consider electoral rules. I will shortly speak to two examples which arose recently in New Zealand and British Columbia, two systems which are not dissimilar to the Irish system to the extent that they are not transitional democracies and have not recently undergone major regime change. These are examples of cases where the ability to recommend a system was placed in the hands of an extraordinary commission, either a public citizens' commission, royal commission or some external body. As a result, the Legislature or parties most affected by the rule change were not involved in making the decision.

Examples of extraordinary instruments include round table talks in countries which have just made a major regime change, typically moving from single party states to democracy, and the use of electoral commissions, usually followed by a referendum on the recommendations of the commission, as was the case in New Zealand. In British Columbia a citizens' electoral commission was appointed. This system would, I believe, be the most workable in the Irish case. There are, however, constitutional implications of these extraordinary mechanisms and it is not always possible to proceed in this manner because the constitution may specify means by which a constitutional change must be approved. In the Irish case, the matter is simple. Any change from the PR-STV system must be approved ultimately in a referendum because it would involve a constitutional amendment.

The proposal would have to be passed in Dáil Éireann before being put in a referendum.

Professor Kenneth Benoit

Yes, it would have to be passed in both Chambers of the Houses.

I have indicated that electoral systems are often changed by simple political manipulations. Following a referendum in 1993, the system that had guaranteed the dominance of the Italian system by one party for most of the post-war period was broken by the change from the proportional system to one with some single member districts. This mixed member system was supposed to shake up the party system but a way around it was found in 2005 when, at about this time of year, the Prime Minister, Mr. Berlusconi simply had his party pass a law that reversed the change. Little has changed in the meantime.

In France, when the Socialist Party was about to lose an election badly in 1986, it decided a few months before the election to change to a proportional representation system. This meant that, as a smaller party, Jacques Chirac's party at the time would not take as many seats from the Socialists as would have occurred under the previous system. The change had the side effect of giving 14 seats to Jean-Marie Le Pen's National Front party, which was not a desirable outcome for a moderate social democratic party. Nevertheless, the change in the system preserved some seats for the Socialist Party, although Chirac's party won the election and reversed the change to the electoral system two years later. Only a majority vote is required to implement such a change. My research supports the view that stability is enhanced by decision rules for changing electoral systems that are a little stickier than the majority rule. Often, having a referendum rule or super-majority requirement — frequently a two thirds majority rule — prevents the political manipulations I have described from taking place.

Fianna Fáil twice attempted to change the single transferable vote system to a first past the post system. On both occasions the proposal was passed by the Dáil but failed in a subsequent referendum. On the second occasion it failed by a substantial majority. It probably does not come as a surprise to learn that on both occasions Fianna Fáil had a majority. As members will be aware, is has also been the largest party historically. In other words, smaller parties were not advocating changing to a first past the post system.

I will speak briefly to what features of the electoral system can be changed. If there was a menu of possible changes, what would it feature? The menu is not one from which we must necessarily choose only one dish. One can mix and match a little, although the basic parameter is the choice of proportional representation versus majoritarian formulas. Typically, this choice is between some form of list based proportional representation system in which a list of candidates is elected based on a formula for translating the number of votes into the number of seats and a system based on single member constituencies using either a first past the post model or mechanism similar to that in place in France which has a two-round, run-off system. There are variations on both themes. The variation on the proportional representation theme is whether one uses closed lists where the party controls the order and placement of individuals on the list or whether voters are able to make some modifications. As other speakers have discussed the specifics of the various options, I will not discuss them in detail unless prompted to do so by members.

Ballot structure is another broad feature on the menu. In Ireland the distinguishing feature of the single transferable vote is that rather than casting a single vote for a single candidate, candidates are ranked. There are rules for taking these ranked preferences. This is known in the technical literature as an ordinal ballot as opposed to a cardinal ballot. These ordinal preferences are converted, dropped and transferred according to the rules of the single transferable vote, although it is possible to have ordered preferences in systems that are not quite the same as the single transferable vote system. The most popular of these is the system used in Australia called the alternative vote where, essentially, a single candidate is elected but the candidates are ranked by voters rather than simply being marked with an X for the single most popular one. A feature that is easily changed and usually not at a constitutional level is constituency size, known more generally in the literature as district magnitude. This is like a value, the larger the district magnitude the more proportional the system. It has been pointed out by my colleague, Mr. Michael Gallagher, that it is not the single transferable vote in Ireland that causes the system to be relatively disproportional, it is the fact that the constituency sizes range from three to five seats per constituency. If the constituency sizes ranged from 13 to 15 seats there would be a very proportional system. This valve can be adjusted for any sort of multi-candidate election to change the degree of proportionality.

I am conscious that time is short. Therefore, I will not say much on the next slide headed "What explains preferences for alternatives?" I said a little about it in my introduction. There are selfish concerns where parties are seeking to either gain office or to see certain policies enacted. In the article I submitted there are a number of examples of this. There are also, of course, general concerns. General concerns are the type of arguments it is acceptable and proper to make in public, such as the desirable balance between representation and governability achieved by a set of rules. Some countries have ethnic minority or national minority issues, and rules have to be designed to placate minorities and ensure a fair balance of interest in society. The Seanad election rule system is basically one of those. It was engineered for a system which in political science is called a corporatist representation; that is, different groups are pre-allocated different numbers of seats to ensure they are represented. The desire for legitimacy and fairness is pre-eminent in most systems for the simple reason that the parties who will compete by these rules have to be convinced that the rules were adopted in a fair fashion. Likewise, the public want to be convinced that the rules were adopted in a fair fashion that suits the interests of the country. I will give two examples, the first of which is New Zealand.

Since 1914 New Zealand was usually cited as the textbook case of the two-party system. It was more Westminster than Westminster itself. It had a two-party system and it used first past the post. In the 1980s, in order to break the two-party system and in response to electoral reform societies and certain interests calling for consideration of electoral reform, a pledge was made by the Labour Party to look into the issue and establish a royal commission to consider electoral system alternatives. This commission was established and to the horror of many of the Labour MPs, recommended a mixed-member system. A mixed-member system is a hybrid between first past the post and list proportional representations which uses half and half. This would have introduced additional parties and reduced the typical seat advantage enjoyed by Labour. The cat was let out of the bag by the Prime Minister, David Lange, whose remarks during an interview originally led him to make this promise. New Zealand held a referendum on the issue in 1992 and voters overwhelmingly rejected first past the post as an option by 85%. If it had been left to the Legislature to consider the issue, the Labour MPs would have voted it down, but because it was established in a royal commission by a series of pledges that the Government could not back away from, a referendum was called by the National Party when it was in power. Both parties felt committed to it at the time and the voters overwhelmingly supported the adoption of a different system.

The second and last example is that of British Columbia. This is a process that concluded somewhat recently. In 2001 the Liberal Party proposed to consider alternatives to the first past the post system and they rejected the New Zealand option of establishing a royal commission. It wanted a more broad citizen-based consideration of the process rather than one perceived as the work of elites or a royal commission, so a citizens' assembly on electoral reform was established. This consisted of 160 citizens drawn from all the different regions in British Columbia and they were chosen for gender balance. There was a rule that there had to be two citizens from each of the districts, one man and one woman. They heard from experts, similar to Mr. Richard Sinnott and me. They held public hearings, deliberated extensively and issued a recommendation. The recommendation was to use the Irish system, a single transferable vote with a slight modification which in the literature is called BCSTV, that is, the British Columbia version. Essentially it is the same system. It went to a referendum in 2005. The rules for changing this rule were that it had to pass with a threshold not of 50% but of 60% and it had to have simple majorities in three fifths, or 60%, of the 79 districts. However, it failed with 58% of the overall vote, even though it had majority support in 97% of the 79 districts. By and large, the public on a geographical distribution and as a simple majority had quite strongly supported making the change.

Was that vote in 2001?

Professor Kenneth Benoit

The referendum was in 2005. I mentioned that I would not evaluate alternative systems but in my opinion, in Ireland the most legitimate way to consider electoral reform would be to establish something similar to a citizens' assembly as in British Columbia.

I thank Professor Benoit for the excellent presentation. Many thoughts and questions arise as a result of it.

I thank Professor Benoit for a very interesting presentation. I hope he will not get drowned out by the budget today because some of his comments are very interesting. We will bear that in mind in our deliberations.

There are two issues I wish to touch on briefly. One is with Professor Sinnott on the issue of by-elections. In regard to local authorities we had a system where the ongoing council selected a member and that was changed to co-option from the party. In the European Parliament there was a system of co-option followed by a B list, but again it is a co-option system. It was stated that in Germany and New Zealand the co-option principle appeared to be preferable, at least looking at it from outside. There are certain attractions about by-elections here — we do not have mid-term elections as in the US — as they give the public the opportunity of giving the Government of the day a kick in the pants. I am sure it would love one at present——

It does not change the Government.

——which is grasping at straws to hold on. Professor Sinnott did not mention Malta whose electoral system is similar to ours. Perhaps he would deal with it. The experience in British Colombia as set out by Professor Benoit is very interesting in that it attempted to adopt a system similar to ours. New Zealand established a royal commission which, probably, we could not have here whereas British Colombia established a citizens' assembly. Is Professor Benoit suggesting that if we were to look ahead and avoid the situation of the fixed views within the Dáil, something similar to a citizens' assembly is needed to come up with a proposal? Do we have any idea from opinion polls what people think of the present system and whether there is a desire for change?

I have two questions for Professor Sinnott, one for Professor Benoit and a comment.

Professor Sinnott has been observing the system for a long time. I discern from his presentation, with its analysis, that he supports the current system. If he were asked whether there was a compelling reason to change it, how would he respond?

My next question is on Professor Sinnott's focus on multi-seat constituencies, an essential element of the STV system. The greater the number of seats, the greater the proportionality, but the downside is that there is a greater number of Deputies traipsing to the same meetings and dealing with the same issues. In my constituency five Deputies turn up for every event. If there were 15 Deputies in a larger constituency, they would all be traipsing farther to deal with the same events. Is a multi-seat arrangement an essential element or would a single seat STV arrangement with a proportional top-up system be fit for purpose?

Most of those who write about constituency work have never done it. I was thinking about this after my clinics this weekend. Even the Deputies who are most likely to write memoirs are the ones who have been most active on the constituency front line. This is a personal observation that requires more public examination than occurs.

I found the data and information provided by the delegates fascinating and most helpful. I will certainly reflect on them, particularly as a menu for change. Let us consider Professor Benoit's assertion, although modified in the paper, that electoral reform is normally advocated for electoral advantage. There are occasions — perhaps this is one — on which there is a genuine desire to consider governance at all levels, not just in parliamentary terms, to determine whether our systems are fit for purpose. Reform in New Zealand occurred by inadvertence on foot of a commitment made on television. There is a view that we need to re-examine fundamentally our governance structures to determine whether they are fit for purpose in very changed times.

The delegates' presentations were excellent. The problem is that such presentations are not circulated widely enough. People do not really understand the system. However, I suppose they do understand it when they go to vote in that they make their decisions in accordance with the system. One would nearly need to run an induction course to explain clearly the different systems, how they work and their benefits. I am in a minority in that I believe the current system is very good. It is very good for the customer, be he or she at the top level or on the ground.

Politics is all about difference and there is no politics without differences of opinion. Politics is also about power. One realises over time that if one does not have power, one cannot change anything. Reference was made to parties seeking power. They are doing so to make changes; that is very good and democratic. How one uses power is another story.

What the delegation has had to say supports strongly the system we have in place, bearing in mind that some small variations were referred to. People worry considerably about the fact that Deputies work a lot with people on the ground, but it is from them that one gets one's best ideas. If one could combine academic study with work on the ground, one would have the best of both worlds.

Our system results in the election of a Teachta Dála, TD, who is a person who comes to the Dáil to represent the people. One cannot really represent them if one does not listen to or know them. Achieving this can be difficult and very time-consuming.

Commentators in the media are very ignorant of and do not understand the circumstances that obtain because all one needs is a relatively small backup system for a Deputy to meet most requirements. For years we worked here with one eleventh of a secretary. This was what we were entitled to when I was first elected. I said, "Forget it." Fortunately, my wife was an early riser and had all my work done before I came in here to start at 10 a.m. That is a fact. During the years the system changed gradually such that one now has one secretary and one researcher, or perhaps a personal assistant. That is excellent, yet everybody criticises it. The newspapers print the costs of a secretary and researcher time and again as if Deputies were receiving the moneys themselves. These staff are an essential part of the system. If people are so unaware – I do not like to use the word "ignorant" – of the system, it should be explained to them in the interests of democracy. The delegates' explanations were particularly good.

I tend to be a lateral thinker which can be very useful at times because it allows one to think of the different sides of a problem and my being so allows me to note the recurrence of the debate on the supports provided for Deputies and Senators. Very little expenditure is required in this area. The effect is that one has one's feet on the ground and can work on change. It allows one to meet the representative groups, be they those involved in the car business or the health sector. I refer to the many essential lobby groups. What has happened is that we have grown up and matured as a people. There used to be only a few key lobbyists. The word "lobbyist" is not highly regarded in the media, but it should be the other way around. The media should have been saying those who were not being represented as they should have been needed better lobbying. The voluntary organisations are working together better than they used to and have become more professional in lobbying. Consequently, they will certainly be heard much more widely. Deputies require support that should not decrease below a defined minimum in order that they can work in this system and meet its needs. The overall system needs to improve and result in the provision of better information. The two systems can work together.

I am a little bothered by the question of by-elections. One must think about whether the result of a by-election is intended to be pertinent for four or five years. If so, one should probably have a system in which people would be co-opted or picked from those who contested the general election. One wants a system in which a Government has a reasonable opportunity to work over a period of four to five years. In that situation it is possible to do what is being done at present.

The change being considered would result in a different kind of election. I am always amused at the comments from media commentators on the elections. If a transferable vote system is in use and there is only one seat, the votes are going to transfer, by and large, away from the incumbent Government candidate, with rare exceptions, as I am sure the professors appreciate. That is the way it works in practice.

There is much to consider in what the professors had to say. They have made a very valuable contribution to the matters under consideration and I thank them.

I thank Deputy Woods and call Senator Dan Boyle.

I have a few questions for both professors. I am not sure whether Professor Sinnott is aware of the phenomenon in Malta, where the two main parties tend to run more candidates than the number of seats that are available, to solidify their vote. I do not know whether this has to do with the political culture of their system, but it is what they do.

It is strange that people tend to vote differently in by-elections to general elections. By-elections tend to be seen as an opportunity to get at the incumbent Government. I do not believe we have had a Government candidate win a by-election in Ireland since the early 1980s. In the last 15 years, however, three Independent candidates have won by-elections. Democratic Left, as a party, won a handful of by-elections and traditionally, the Labour Party as a third party, has won proportionately more by-elections than its vote in a general election might indicate.

In my experience, I have achieved my highest ever vote in by-election situations. I do not know what that says about my performance in general elections. However, there is an argument to be made that at a time of anti-Government sentiment, it is the second party that tends to lose out while smaller parties come through in by-election situations. I do not know whether that is a factor that could be examined.

With regard to the reasons Professor Benoit was giving for electoral system change, I believe a case could be made that our system has been adapted through the Constituency Boundary Commission in the sense that we are limited to three and five-seat constituencies, which has given a bigger bounce to both Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael in elections. In the early elections in this country I believe there was a nine-seat Donegal constituency and there might have been an 11 or 13-seat Dublin County constituency at one time. That would have explained the larger number of smaller parties in the first decade of the State's history and a more proportional system.

To cite Green Party international experience in terms of the election systems that have been mentioned, the Greens perform well in Germany and in New Zealand. In Canada, which still has a first past the post system, the Greens tend to get between 5% and 10% of the national vote, yet do not get into the national Parliament because of the single seat constituencies. I believe there might be a greater proportion of Green Party support in British Colombia, which might be one of the factors in the internal debate there. If I can recall it I may have another point to make.

Perhaps I shall just put a couple of questions and if Senator Boyle can recall what he was going to say before the professors reply, I shall come back to him.

My two questions are about those on the list system and alphabetical placement on the ballot paper. Professor Sinnott has mentioned that elections are designed to recruit representatives of the people, not policy experts and individuals with specialist backgrounds. In the list systems of which is he aware, what tends to be the make-up of the people on the lists and how are they chosen? Are they political apparatchiks of a party, are they chosen because of their specialist knowledge, or do the people on the lists have some type of interaction with the people on a constituency basis so that there is some representative aspect to the fact they have been chosen?

With regard to the alphabetical aspect, is Professor Sinnott saying that this is to facilitate some degree of randomness among the parties? Is there some other way this could be achieved? It gives some form of advantage to the people at the top of the list, as is recognised from the make-up of the Dáil at the moment, given the number of Members whose names start with the letters A, B or C.

What about those beginning with W?

Also, the people at the bottom of the list seem to derive some advantage. Is there a way of randomising that so that, as Deputy Brian Lenihan is trying to do today, there is fairness involved in the whole exercise?

Has Senator Boyle remembered what it was he wanted to ask?

It was a rhetorical question, about the two referendums and changes in our voting system. Were they both first past the post or was one an alternate vote system?

Professor Kenneth Benoit

They were both first past the post.

Professor Richard Sinnott

The alternate vote was proposed in the discussions, in particular by the Labour Party, but was not taken up.

Before I come to the guests, is there any other pertinent question anyone wants to ask? No. Then I shall call Professor Richard Sinnott first to be followed by Professor Kenneth Benoit.

Professor Richard Sinnott

I thank the Chairman. On Deputy Jim O'Keeffe's questions and remarks, there is a provision for co-option at local level, and interestingly that issue is currently before the High Court in a case being taken by a citizen who claims he is being deprived of his constitutional right to elect his local representative. What would make co-option more legitimate, I believe, is to have some way of indicating who the successors would be, as is done in European Parliament elections. As regards mechanisms for seeking a legitimate alternative to by-elections, there are examples in other countries and at the European level that are worth taking into account.

What is the situation regarding Malta?

Professor Richard Sinnott

I made a preliminary inquiry on the Maltese system for by-elections and have not got a response, as yet. I had a copy of the German electoral law, but not the Maltese one. I shall have to plead guilty and say I am not in a position to answer that question. Perhaps Professor Benoit can.

Professor Kenneth Benoit

I do not know the answer, either.

Malta's only real relevance arises because of the comparability of its system to ours.

Professor Richard Sinnott

Yes, that is correct.

Professor Kenneth Benoit

I assume it does it the same way, but I do not know for certain.

Professor Richard Sinnott

I would assume that as well, because essentially there is the influence of the British tradition. In the 1920s in Ireland if there was a vacancy the norm was to replicate what was being done across the water in such a situation and have a by-election. Some of our institutions were developed in that manner.

I do not know of any substantial body of evidence regarding the impact of opinion polls on the present system. An indirect response to that question might be that the work we did in the recently published book, The Irish Voter, indicated from a fairly tough test in the questionnaire that some 40% of people voted on the basis of candidate rather than party. Two of the questions asked are worth considering. One was to the effect of which is the more important in terms of making up one’s mind how to vote, candidate or party? The second question was to the effect that if the candidate one voted for as a first preference was running for a different party, would one still vote for him or her? It is the combination of those two questions that makes up the figure of 40%. That is a strong endorsement. It is not a majority endorsement, as 60% vote otherwise, but it is an indication of strong support for a candidate preference system, which can occur in a list system, as there are various list systems with greater or lesser degrees of preference voting allowed. Preference voting is absolutely essential to the PR-STV system.

Deputy Howlin asked me to step up to the plate. I would support the current system, although I am not a supporter who would say that it is the perfect electoral system that is perfectly suited to our needs. However, it provides a mix of advantages, including a degree of input by the public. If we think of it as an informational process, the amount of information about the preferences of the voters that is transmitted through the PR-STV system is quite remarkable when compared with most other systems. There are many arguments in principle in favour of it, and these have been canvassed or disputed in the debates of this committee.

The other side of the argument is about what we would put in as a replacement for it. The current front runner for all discussion on the electoral system tends to be the German system. It does not seem to me that this system would be a suitable means for the Irish case, but neither would it solve our problem because we would still have the constituency service role being performed extensively even with a two-tier system.

We saw that as a problem.

Professor Richard Sinnott

That is true.

The multi-seat element is essential. Sometimes we read in the press that we should have proportional representation in single member constituencies, because the multi-member constituencies create the "problem". However, such a system would not be proportional, but rather would be a majoritarian system.

It might not be if we had a proportional top up.

Professor Richard Sinnott

That would solve that aspect of it. Such a system would be close to the German system. In fact, it would be closer to the German system as originally designed, where one vote determined the election of individuals and the top up. That system would be worth considering. It would have the same problem whereby one party would tend to dominate——-

One would dominate the constituencies and one would dominate in the top ups.

Professor Richard Sinnott

Yes that is correct.

Deputy Howlin also made a very good point about clinics. About 20 years ago, I remember a student who worked informally for Deputy Higgins as a researcher. He managed to combine that work with doing a thesis on the role of the TD. I am not familiar with any extensive academic literature on the topic, but there is clearly a case to be made for having a thorough examination of that process, its merits and its demerits. That is a very good suggestion.

Deputy Woods gave a personal answer to the question of whether clinics are a good thing or a bad thing. He gave a very eloquent account of why he thinks they are essential. There is something to be said for that analysis and for the closeness between the voter and the politician as created by the PR-STV electoral system. He also made a good point about facilities. It is difficult in the current climate to talk about having more facilities for TDs, but much constituency work ought to be delegated to staff. I would argue that TDs need more staff and not less. The constituency can be taken care of and the TD can benefit from this, but at the same time he or she will have time to sit in committees, formulate and criticise legislation and so on.

The abolition of by-elections would make the assumption that the Dáil is intended to run its full term. However, in our system and in the British system, there is a random element as to whether that is the case. To create the possibility of changing the Government as a result of a succession of by-elections, where the rules are so different from those in general elections, is a contradiction in the system and a diminution of the proportional element which PR-STV brings about. It is an inconsistency between a proportional system and a majoritarian system. There is a proportional representation system in the general election, while there is a majoritarian system in by-elections. That contradiction is undesirable.

I thank Senator Boyle for his questions. The point about Malta is a political and cultural question. I am not an expert on Maltese politics, but there is a depth of political cleavage in Malta that gives rise to extremely strong parties and to very intensive competition. There are electoral turnouts of more than 90% in Malta, which is quite amazing. However, there is obviously something fundamentally different. In Ireland, parties are weakening. We can see that in the decline in the rate of party attachment or party identification among the voters. That creates a very different situation to that which exists in Malta. It underlines one of the most important things in discussions on any electoral system, which is that the electoral system will function in a way that is modified by the context in which it is introduced. We can have unexpected consequences because of that.

The Senator's other point was about the success of smaller parties in by-elections. More study is required on this issue, but my hypothesis is that this happens when a smaller party, such as the old Democratic Left, has managed to become the front runner for the opposition. Transfers from the other opposition parties bring the smaller party through to win the by-election. Small parties can win in by-elections, but the underlying tendency is for them not to win. That is particularly a problem when we want minority representation to be fostered and preserved. That is not compatible with the way in which by-elections operate.

The Chairman asked about the list system. A large number of countries operate list systems and there is a correspondingly large variety in the way in which the individuals are chosen. Not only are the individuals chosen to be on the list but in a closed list system or even in some preferential list systems, it is very hard to shift people from the top of the ranking in a preferential list system. The academic literature here is more extensive but it would require another day to examine in detail the question of a candidate's selection.

On the issue of alphabetical voting, I would be in favour of randomising the order of the names on the ballot paper. That is an open and shut case; it should simply be done. It was considered in debate and, I think, also in the courts but it has not been changed. It is not that the people who vote alphabetically are ill-informed or not attentive or not interested voters; they are probably among the most interested and serious voters but they are simply party voters. Faced with a list of candidates they cast the eye down the list and decide to give party A candidates Nos. 1, 2 and 3.

By randomising the list, is it not simply changing the luck of birth to the luck of the ballot?

Professor Richard Sinnott

The effect then would be that this luck would cancel out over the different constituencies whereas now we have a systematic bias. There would be a random bias in the other case in any given constituency.

When voting with a long list, particularly in local elections, one has to find the individual candidates. People are very conscious not to spend too much time in the polling booth.

Professor Richard Sinnott

Sure.

I think it would be a disincentive for people to vote down the list. Individually it is fine but alphabetically I know where the candidates will be.

Professor Richard Sinnott

So Deputy Howlin thinks the alphabetical rule helps the voter? It is clear from research on voter turnout that there is a strong argument for making voting easier. The Deputy gave the example of the voter going into the polling booth and feeling that he or she is taking a long time and feeling under pressure. Anything that reduces that pressure and facilitates voting is good but I think the alphabetical effect is more of a problem.

I agree with Professor Sinnott but I have a feeling that our Chairman, Deputy Ardagh, may not be that keen for a change.

Photographs help to identify people.

I invite Professor Benoit to comment.

Professor Kenneth Benoit

I will try to address the question that Professor Sinnott has not covered. He has responded to most of the issues. There is a question about whether the citizens' assembly on electoral reform would be a desirable method for Ireland. I think something like that would be an effective method. The reason is, ultimately, that in Ireland any change from single transferable voting would involve a referendum. For the referendum to pass there would need to be some popular support. To have popular support, it would be important to avoid any problem that has the appearance of an elite or partisan-driven project.

Given Deputy Howlin's comment about governance, and in response to a question on whether there is popular support for the single transferable vote, I do not think we have much evidence on this. However, we know there is a decline in partisanship as Professor Sinnott has said, and there is a loss of support for opinions of public representatives in general. There are many political projects that are viewed as elite-driven that may not necessarily be the most popular in retrospect with electorates, especially in current times, given the difficult situation to be faced after the budget. We did not want the electoral reform commission, like the electronic voting system, to lead to an expensive project that ultimately is not fruitful. If the issue is put in the hands of a citizens' electoral commission it is essentially taken out of political hands and put in non-partisan, non-political and non-professional hands. Ultimately one can put the blame on the people who have to vote for it and that can be a very useful device. It is also more likely to generate the long-term considerations focused on the general good, rather than short term and focused on partisan good, which is typical when the process is formulated by incumbent parties.

I want to say one thing on the question of by-elections. By-elections are unusual because when people are deciding how to vote, in a parliamentary system they look ahead at what type of government might form. A supporter of party A will probably stick with that party because he knows that if he was to stray to party B for curiosity's sake to shake them up and if enough people did that, his party would not be in government. In a general election one tends to stick with one's most preferred party because one's goal is to elect a government that will implement the policy one likes. In a by-election one has a luxury of knowing that even if party B wins and one prefers party A, it will not change the government. That often leads voters to make different choices because the cost is very different and the outcome may be costless in a system where one knows it will not change the majority. There is also the element of protest. In by-elections the incoming government makes the tough choices and does the difficult job of governing. It is easy to criticise so there is an element of a protest vote. For these reasons, certain types of candidates present themselves for extraordinary elections that probably would not have done so in a general election.

Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger was elected in California in what was essentially a by-election. He probably would not have had a chance in a normal political process of running as governor when the state legislature in the other offices was being elected. It is probably no coincidence that an RTÉ personality was elected in a by-election. Sometimes such candidates do not present themselves in general elections but they realise that by-elections provide them with a special opportunity. It is a very different situation. It is not a continuation. It is one additional observation on a general election. No matter what system is in place, if there is a by-election there will probably be similar considerations.

I thank Professor Richard Sinnott and Professor Kenneth Benoit for their very thought-provoking presentation and as Deputy Howlin said, we will be reflecting for quite a while on what they have said.

I wish you all a very happy Christmas and a peaceful new year.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.10 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 13 January 2010.
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