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JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE CONSTITUTION debate -
Wednesday, 3 Nov 2010

Article 15 of the Constitution - Review of the Parliamentary Power of Inquiry: Discussion

I welcome everybody to this first meeting in our review of the parliamentary power of inquiry under Article 15 of the Constitution. I would like to set out the background to the review on which we are embarking. The Oireachtas Joint Committee on the Constitution was appointed by the Houses of the Oireachtas to complete a full review of the Constitution and to establish those areas where constitutional change may be desirable or necessary. In this current phase of its work programme, the committee has decided to undertake a review of the powers of inquiry of the Houses of the Oireachtas, in the context of Article 15 of the Constitution. The challenge of growing Executive dominance and concerns over lack of accountability have led to a renewed focus on Parliament's power of inquiry. This review will focus on the constitutional power of Parliament to undertake in-depth investigations into matters regarding public policy making and administrative affairs in cases of maladministration. The key question the committee will explore is whether the Constitution should expressly authorise the Houses of the Oireachtas to hold inquiries so that it may exercise its parliamentary accountability functions effectively and advisedly.

Safeguards for witnesses will form a key element of our review. In any parliamentary inquiry, it is necessary for the Houses to observe due process and recognise and protect the rights of witnesses and other individuals affected by inquiries. In this review, we will endeavour to provide objective information to contribute to the debate. Over the next number of weeks, we will take evidence from a panel of academic experts and other interested parties to inform our deliberations. We are also inviting written submissions from members of the public. Today we will hear from Professor David Gwynn Morgan, emeritus professor of law at University College Cork. I welcome him to this meeting and thank him for his paper which has been circulated to members.

Before we begin, I must inform the witness that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. If witnesses are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I now invite Professor Morgan to give a broad overview of the issues to be addressed in the review.

Professor David Gwynn Morgan

Good morning. The committee was kind enough to invite me here two weeks ago, so the first three pages of my presentation are a compressed summary of what I said then. The remainder, which is more of a discussion of what might be done, contains some new material.

As we know, by a five to two majority, the Abbeylara inquiry established that there are significant limitations on the power of Oireachtas committees to hold investigations. This demonstrates that the Parliament has significantly less power in this field than its equivalents in almost all other European Union states. There is a good paper from the Oireachtas Library and Research Unit, prepared by Golda Hession, which will be available to members if they do not have it already. It fills in the details of the matter.

One of the features from the Abbeylara case is that the limitations varied from one judgment in the majority group of five judges to another. It is difficult to advise on the basis of it simply because there is great uncertainty. In practice, if the Oireachtas is considering whether to set up a committee with various other pressures on it, the last thing it wants is uncertainty in the law. I will return to this later.

In the Supreme Court hearing on Abbeylara, the gardaí whose conduct was under investigation successfully sought judicial review and essentially took five points, which I will go through very briefly, with emphasis on the fourth and fifth points, which are the most significant. The first point related to the error which was said to be found in getting permission to compel witnesses to appear. That is something related not to the constitutional scope of the Oireachtas or its committees but simply to the terms of the 1997 Act. It could be addressed by modifying the Act. What comes from this in terms of operating an inquiry is that the more simple the better. The more complicated a procedure is, the more difficulties involved in it.

The second point relates to the first rule of fair procedure, sometimes called constitutional justice, the no bias rule. The second rule is more tricky to operate in practice. Several of the judges in the Abbeylara matter held that it was undesirable or wrong for persons sitting in quasi-judicial positions to make themselves available for media interview or to participate in public discussions. This relates to sittings of something like the role of the Judiciary because something like a crime was at issue in that case. That is something which must be considered, although it is not in the Constitution. If discussing the Constitution, my opinion is that we should think about baggage so that all parts will be on the table and it may be necessary to have a protocol addressing that kind of conduct.

The second point hummed and hawed about in the Abbeylara judgment was that of structural bias, sometimes called institutional bias. This conveys the idea that members of an institution subject to party discipline might be inherently biased. This was considered but not ruled upon by the court. If there were a constitutional amendment, that difficulty would be lifted out of the way.

The third point is the other leg of fair procedure, which is the idea that a person whose good name is in jeopardy from the report or even the evidence-taking of a committee is entitled to full re Haughey representational rights. That is deduced from the Constitution in this other landmark case of re Haughey and short of a very radical amendment to the Constitution, nothing can be done about that. An exception may be possible if the committee sits in private or if the person whose character may be at issue waives the re Haughey rights. We could talk about that later perhaps.

The fourth aspect of the Abbeylara case was that some of the judgments held that there may not be authority to hold an inquiry. That could be put right by amending the main Act in this field, which is the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities) Act 1997. For reasons I will come to later, my view is that a constitutional amendment would be required. That is to some extent tied to the fifth and most difficult point.

This relates to the subject matter of the inquiry into the death by shooting which was before the Oireachtas committee dealing with justice regarding the Abbeylara case. There were two features to the subject matter in the view of the majority. The first is the inquiry into the conduct of "individual citizens". It seems a bit of a stretch to apply this to gardaí on duty but the distinction which Mr. Justice Hardiman was establishing there is clear enough; it is between private individuals and companies and public servants, or possibly the narrower term of civil servants, on the other hand. He may have even restricted it to identifying Ministers rather than humble civil servants.

A second aspect was that the committee's terms of reference, according to the court, required it to consider whether to make a finding of unlawful killing, which is more or less a definition of manslaughter. The courts seem to have regarded this term of reference as tantamount to asking the sub-committee to find whether identified gardaí had committed a serious criminal offence.

On a narrow reading of the Abbeylara case, one could say the terms of reference were unusual by reference to what Oireachtas committees usually investigate, and the court reacted with a rather extreme judgment, with hard cases making bad law. If that is followed through, perhaps one could take the view that a constitutional amendment is not required. On the other hand I shall argue later that it seems there is much doubt in this area, which is very difficult when there is an assembly subject to all kinds of political and media preference. The law should be as definite as possible.

I was asked to refer to the minority in the Abbeylara case. There were two dissenting judgments, with one from Chief Justice Keane. That judgment held that the undoubted constitutional right of each individual garda to his good name did not preclude the proposed inquiry. He said that the right to a good name in this instance had to be balanced against the right and the duty of the Oireachtas to inquire into matters relevant to its constitutional function. He was one of two dissenters who were outvoted. I should emphasise that my understanding of this committee is that it is not concerned with academic law or whether Chief Justice Keane had the better of the argument in some kind of legal terms. We have this Abbeylara decision and if anything like it came to the Supreme Court now, although the personnel have changed, the court would not change its mind and follow the minority.

The other issue to be cleared out of the way is the significance of the Curtin case, in which the Oireachtas investigated the behaviour of a Circuit Court judge. Its duty and authority to do so is established specifically in a special part of the Constitution, Article 35.4. In my judgment it does not have anything to say about the width of the Oireachtas's general power in areas not involving the removal of a judge.

I will consider what may be done about this. The first question is whether there should be a constitutional amendment to give the Oireachtas the power to hold inquiries. This is mentioned in the constitutions of most member states and, as I noted, it is set out in chapter and verse in the excellent briefing paper prepared by the Oireachtas Library and Research Service. The reason this power is not mentioned in either the 1922 Constitution or the 1937 Constitution is because it is not spelled out in respect of the British Parliament. However, this is because of the unique character and history of the UK's unwritten constitution. A Parliament with roots in the 13th century is not a helpful model for a country with a more normal history. The drafters of the 1922 and 1937 Constitutions were misled into thinking it did not have to be mentioned here. My first suggestion is that the power to hold inquiries should be specified in the Constitution, partly because of the uncertainty that surrounds it. A provision could simply state: "The Oireachtas, through its committees, shall have the power to inquire into matters of public importance". I warn members that I have included in my paper various forms of wording simply because I think a definite formulation is a useful basis for discussion. I am not advocating that my suggestions should be put into the Constitution but I find it easier to work when something is on the table for discussion.

Some of the majority judges in the Abbeylara decision hinted that the purpose of an inquiry by the Oireachtas should be related to legislation, presumably because the Oireachtas is the Legislature. However, that would limit its power and it is also relevant to note that the Dáil is the entity to which the Government is responsible under Article 28.4 of the Constitution. This means that the duties and powers of the Oireachtas extend to Government activities and, in light of developments in the 20th and 21st centuries, it is only reasonable to extend these duties and powers to the entire public service. I advise that wide general words such as "public importance" should be used.

In regard to the question of whether limits should be imposed on the scope of powers of inquiry, it is easy to say we do not need to be concerned with what was said in the Abbeylara case because we are changing the Constitution. Such a response may be imprudent given that the judgment drew on well-established legal doctrines and if one does not pay some heed to it, one may end up with an extreme sort of amendment. Such an extreme amendment might resemble section 1 of the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act 1921, that is: "a definite matter described in the [Oireachtas] resolution as of urgent public importance". One might add on the power to find that a criminal offence has been committed by an identifiable individual. Such a provision would have to be included in the Constitution if one wanted to fully reverse the Abbeylara judgment. I will leave it to members to decide whether to do so, although I am hinting it would not be a good idea.

Alternatively the provision could state: "but not including the power to find that a criminal offence has been committed by an identifiable individual". By way of comparison, while I used the term "criminal offence", the Abbeylara judgment used the word "culpability", which sounds broader and more vague. I would not recommend the inclusion of "culpable" because it would grant too little power to the Oireachtas.

The extent of the powers needed by an Oireachtas committee is worth considering. There is no point in proposing a constitutional amendment which bestows such a wide power as to make it controversial if it is not going to be used. John O'Dowd from University College Dublin wrote a lengthy review of the use made of the power of investigation by the Oireachtas until the 1990s. He concluded that, in terms of investigative committees, the proposals were for the most part a means of ventilating political differences and hostilities rather than serious attempts to inject life into the select committee system as a means of investigating issues of public importance. To take an example, the Oireachtas might want to mount an inquiry into the causes of serious crime but would it want to name big criminals and, if so, where would it find its information?

There are areas into which the Oireachtas ought to be able to inquire but where its powers to do so have been cast into doubt by the Abbeylara decision. It is well known that Abbeylara has interfered with the ability of the Committee of Public Accounts and other committees to comment frankly on the waste, or worse, of public moneys. This is despite the fact that the Committee of Public Accounts is the most respected and longest established Dáil committee and has a quasi-constitutional status. Another example is the inquiry by the Joint Committee on Public Enterprise and Transport into the overrun on the mini-CTC signalling project in 2001, just after Abbeylara. All the evidence had been collected but the committee felt it should not publish its report. This, in my opinion, represented an infringement of the legitimate rights of an Oireachtas committee. I am sure members can come up with other examples. I suggest they do a stock take and ask themselves what precisely is needed. Clearly, one has to allow for future growth. Candidates for public bodies might, for example, be required to appear before an Oireachtas committee. It might be useful for the committee to determine the necessary scope for public inquiry.

A distinction can be made between making a finding on the primary facts, such as that an official charged a Department for several air trips to Paris when there was no need for them, and making a criticism or giving an opinion. An example of this might be where a committee wanted to find that there was a management failure, extravagance, favouritism or breach of reasonable standards. I am deliberately not going into criminal offences but it appears reasonable that it should be possible for this to be done. Any amendment might want to make it clear that the power of inquiry extends beyond making a finding on primary facts but also takes in the making of a criticism or, possibly, suggestions for improvement.

Naturally any amendment of the Constitution will only be a few words long but to become operational, an Act of the Oireachtas is needed. The present one is the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities) Act 1997. The two are a package so that I think it would be wise if this committee was to consider whether it needs an amendment and, if so, what it might be. If it is going for an amendment, what Act of the Oireachtas would implement the power to hold inquiries? Should it be the 1997 Act, as amended, or should the 1997 Act be replaced? It would be sensible to consider the two together and probably to publish any proposed amendments or change to the 1997 Act so that people can see when they are voting if there is an amendment. Otherwise it may be said that people are buying a pig in a poke. Something like that was done with the divorce amendment in 1997 when the amendment was published together with the implementing legislation. Does the Chairman wish me to stop at this point to allow for questions or discussion?

No, you should continue. I think everybody is fully engaged.

Professor David Gwynn Morgan

A similar problem arises in connection with fair procedure as I conjectured earlier when speaking about how wide the power should be. These rules of fair procedure, sometimes called constitutional justice, are imbedded in the Constitution so that to get them out there should be a clause in any proposed constitutional amendment such as " ...provided that an Oireachtas committee does not have to observe the rules of fair procedure/constitutional justice". I cannot think of any fig leaf. One would have to be that frank and it would not look very appealing to people who were considering which way to vote at a referendum.

There are two rules of constitutional justice, the no-bias rule, which I mentioned, and the possible suggestion that it would be said that an Oireachtas committee might be biased because of the party majority on it - members can probably think of examples of that - and the idea that this inevitable bias would be removed by the Constitution. That could not be taken out by the Constitution, unless extraordinary words were used, such as those I mentioned a moment ago stating that fair procedure did not apply, then one would be stuck with the idea that members of an investigating committee would not give interviews to the media, etc.

The other leg of constitutional justice is the expensive one because it includes the possibility of legal representation. The only thing that could be done would be to take the evidence in private. A parallel case here is the establishment of commissions of investigation as a replacement for tribunals of inquiry. These commissions of investigation sit in private. They accord with the procedure which is recommended by the Law Reform Commission and is now being made over into law. There is a long quote on page 7 of my paper which I will not read out, the guts of which is that if an inquiry is held in private so that the attack on somebody's character, which may prove to have been quite unjustified, is not published, all one gets is the balanced report at the end. Anywhere where commissions of investigation have been concerned, it has been assumed one does not need legal representation. Some kind of tinkering might be done with that but only at the price of the committee sitting in private. I would be happy to take questions.

That was very interesting and opens up a number of questions.

Professor Gwynn Morgan's paper is very helpful. Apart from his role in University College Cork it is helpful that in the past he has taken a leading role in the deliberations of the Law Reform Commission which produced a paper some years ago on the broad issue of inquiries, including this one. What emerges at this stage, as far as I am concerned, is that a constitutional amendment is necessary. It is only a question of what else we might propose to go with the constitutional amendment. A constitutional amendment is clearly necessary because of the lacuna left in the 1937 Constitution. The drafters did not import the provisions of the unwritten constitution in the UK, in respect of such parliamentary inquiries. Given the Abbeylara decision, we must take that as it is, one would be agreeing with the majority opinion or the dissenting opinion in that decision. I think we are heading for a constitutional amendment, it is only a question of what we propose in that regard. We should aim towards a measured one rather than an extreme example which would establish the express right of parliament to hold inquiries but putting limits on it.

In regard to what we would be proposing, there is a clear case for allowing the precedent in the divorce referendum where a draft of supporting legislation would also be proposed and protocol guidelines for the conduct of inquiries. I was a member of the Curtin inquiry, which had very clear rules established at the beginning. The Curtin inquiry was not in any way affected by the Abbeylara decision because there was an express provision on that in Article 35. Clear rules were established as to what members of the inquiry could or could not do. Incidentally, it was held in private, pending the production of a report.

There is just one other point I would suggest to Professor Gwynn Morgan for his consideration. It is probable that we should also consider an amendment to Dáil Standing Orders. This was done in New Zealand where it has a specific set of standing orders in respect of such inquiries. Would the professor agree there is scope to follow the New Zealand precedent and draft a Standing Order to accompany the proposed draft amendment to the Constitution and draft legislation?

I ask members to contribute and perhaps Professor Gwynn Morgan will bank the questions.

I too thank Professor Gwynn Morgan for a comprehensive map of the minefield and some suggested paths, although not all with an absolute guarantee of safe passage.

I welcome the return of the Chairman. We have been looking at the Abbeylara judgment and calling it that rather than Ardagh and others. The culpability of some of us was hidden in the "others" category but the Chairman's name was out front. It is the backdrop against which we work. I wish to address two questions to Professor Gwynn Morgan. On the limits issue - and I have difficulty in getting my head around a solution to the limits issue - basically all the judgments and the Professor's advice is to avoid the area of criminal responsibility, culpability, guilt or however one describes it, but how do we do that and carry out a constitutional function. For example the DIRT inquiry without naming individuals delved into the area of people who were involved in a criminal offence, tax avoidance, and it was regarded as absolutely legitimate. Institutions and the "it" in the Chairman's original advice that cannot be named is the institution that would have the same impact in terms of "findings of a committee". Professor Gwynn Morgan seems to indicate that one can broaden the constitutional remit of the Oireachtas to hold Governments to account, to hold public servants to account, to hold publicly funded institutions to account, but where does that leave the Oireachtas in dealing with non-public servants, for example the banks or other agencies functioning in the State? How do we deal with that issue?

In regard to institutional bias, which is very difficult to address because it is fundamental that we are so different, Professor Gwynn Morgan put it so well in terms of the mores of judges. It is lovely to have those mores in one's little ivory tower and once one is appointed one is there forever and cannot be criticised or held to account for any decision in the current state of affairs. In the Oireachtas, things operate quite differently as well as in every other legislative body that is accountable to the people. A personal aside - it is interesting that the requirement for absolute impartiality that applies to politicians apparently does not apply to lawyers, but we have to see how that pans out and I should not trespass on that area that has yet to be determined. The uniqueness of lawyers is that they are voices for hire.

That is a little crude.

Their view is that they take whatever taxi or bus comes next. How do we overcome that assault on the Members of the Oireachtas because the institutions are so fundamentally different? Is it possible, if that is the mind set of our Judiciary that the Oireachtas could ever overcome that hurdle?

I will embellish Deputy Howlin's final point. It is hard to envisage any potential inquiry by an Oireachtas committee that would not tread upon criminal behaviour, since most inquiries of this nature seem to be on the theme of corruption or potential corruption. Let us look at the tribune role of a public representative. Asking questions on issues of public concern should be at the heart of Oireachtas inquiries and the committees that are conducting the inquiry. If there is preclusion of the potential of criminal action, that undermines it at the first hurdle. The more precise question is on the double lock that Professor Gwynn Morgan proposes, that if there is to be an amendment that the enabling legislation would accompany it at the same time, along the lines of the divorce referendum. Is that such a double lock? Once legislation is passed, it can be amended subsequently. Where is the safety mechanism for any future Oireachtas to say that the powers can be and should be strengthened?

My questions relate very closely to the same sort of area. We have mentioned banks and corruption but one of the big issues is drug barons and under privilege in the Houses of the Oireachtas, drug barons were often named in the past. One was not in a position to determine the level of guilt in the person's case but one was in a position to indicate where the problem was and these are the types of people one must deal with. The existing legislation is not getting to them and that is the reason the seizure of assets was introduced to try to get at them. People were named in that general sense. I appreciate that Professor Gwynn Morgan questions how much power the Oireachtas needs and if it would want to name criminals with big reputations. He will find that people want to name the criminals, especially those involved in drug trade who are able to march around and do what they like in the community. Deputies can be very close to what is happening on the ground and know who is manipulating the situation. They are very frustrated because nobody will put this together. Inquiry into an area such as drugs would still leave the prosecution to the courts, but it would highlight the people who are responsible. They are fairly rarely wrong about that, but the problem is that one cannot put the evidence together when it comes to court and that is a problem for us all. The way that was circumvented was by the seizure of the assets.

In relation to criminality and culpability, in the present economic situation would it be possible to take senior civil servants and say that they were negligent in administering the affairs of the country in so far as they should have been more aware of the effect of the amount of money going through the banking system? In relation to bankers would it be possible for a committee, without involving criminality, to say the principles of banking that were adopted were totally alien to good practice and as a result the country suffered? Whether the ODCE would come in afterwards would be a separate issue. Would it be possible to assess somebody as having culpability in a matter without implying they are criminal in respect of that matter?

Another question arises following that. In the Abbeylara judgment they seem to draw a distinction between attributing direct blame to people as opposed to implied blame arising from a general criticism that might focus on an identified or unidentifiable individual without directly charging that individual with criminal or culpable conduct, but that would be a clear indication of the finding. Is there some way forward for us, in formulating our proposals, to bear in mind the point as to what the powers of the committee should be in regard to making findings that might incidentally give rise to a conclusion of implied blame?

I do not believe any Member of the Oireachtas wishes to have the power to make judgment in regard to the criminality of a person or something that has happened. One of the key aspects is the public interest and that which is inquired into by the Oireachtas must be very much in the public interest. To say that somebody pulled a trigger and that this was done in a way which was illegal is not the function of the Oireachtas or its Members.

Does Professor Morgan want to respond to some of these issues?

Professor David Gwynn Morgan

These are all excellent questions to which I do not have excellent answers. The members are putting their fingers on the difficulties. We might first consider the extreme example of an amendment which allowed for identifying particular individuals as serious criminals. I am perhaps the only person here who is old enough to remember the activities of the McCarthy committee on un-American activities in the 1950s, which brought in findings that people were communists and, as a result of those findings, a number of people committed suicide. This is alluded to in Mr. Justice Hardiman's judgment.

One could summarise many of the questions. Before coming to the main point, when the committee obtains Golda Hession's excellent paper, they will find on page 15 reference to an investigation by the New Zealand Parliament health committee into allegations that a Dr. Parry mistreated his female patients. Dr. Parry is an actual person who, unfortunately, from his name sounds as if he was originally Welsh. The Oireachtas has to decide whether it really wants this kind of power. If it does, it would probably have to opt for one of the very extreme, explicit forms of amendment which I proposed, which might include identifying someone as having committed a criminal offence. It is a matter of policy whether the Oireachtas wants to do that.

Short of that, the discussion would probably be as to how far one can go. The Oireachtas has some experience of this issue, having worked with the Abbeylara judgment in the sense that a body like the Committee of Public Accounts has had to pull its punches but yet get across what it feels. My sense is that one would have an amendment which would allow the Committee of Public Accounts to go further, although perhaps without naming a person. There was quite a range of difference between the Chairman's examples towards the end of our discussion, when he suggested one example where senior civil servants in the Department of Finance might be named as being negligent with the country's finances. One could have an amendment which would allow that, but it is rather different from saying that such and such a person in that Department or in the Revenue Commissioners took a bribe. A form of words might reasonably be found which would indicate that one thing could be done but not the other. It would be for Oireachtas Members to decide whether this is what they want to achieve.

It is a matter of being clear as to what the Oireachtas needs to be able to do, bearing in mind the limitations on resources. This kind of thing has been considered in connection with the practice of the PAC and it would be able to go further if there were an amendment. Deputy Jim O'Keeffe referred to the idea of implied blame. There is something in the judgments on Abbeylara which suggests that if the purpose of a committee is not to go after somebody but, incidentally, the person is hit as part of an inquiry into, say, drugs smuggling, then that is acceptable.

There is a distinction that was rejected in the Abbeylara case but which most people think is a sensible one, namely, is there not a difference between naming somebody as a criminal and actually sending him or her to prison? The courts have more or less elided or removed that distinction. They also overlooked the fact that there is absolute privilege here and they rather feebly say that absolute privilege is okay when one is making a statement but not when one is mounting an investigation into someone.

As I said, these are the sorts of issues one can call upon to justify quite a strong amendment. If members want to take it to the level of actually naming somebody as a criminal, having investigated, then that would have to be made very clear and I believe that would probably be undesirable for broadly political reasons. If the committee decides it wants to go down what I will call the compromise route, perhaps we could have a different kind of paper on various ways in which the drafting would go, but the committee's members would have to decide to take a policy decision as to what they want to do and then instruct their lawyers to come up with various forms of words. The most interesting questions usually come down to policy, and the lawyers then go away to see how the policy can be implemented.

We will have to conclude at this point as the business of the Houses is beginning. We will have time to come back again on the other items that were raised. I thank Professor David Gwynn Morgan for attending, as he has in the past and will hopefully in the future.

Professor David Gwynn Morgan

It was a pleasure.

The joint committee adjourned at 10.30 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 17 November 2010.
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