JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, HERITAGE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT debate -
Tuesday, 23 Sep 2008

Housing Adaptation Grant Schemes: Discussion with Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.

Chairman

We move to the main business of the meeting. Members will recall concerns were voiced at previous meetings regarding apparent inconsistencies in the housing adaptation grant schemes for older people and people with a disability. To address these concerns, officials from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government have been invited to discuss the matter with us. I welcome the officials, Mr. Philip Nugent, principal officer, and Mr. John Goldrick, executive officer, from the housing policy, finance and social inclusion unit of the Department. I thank the officials for attending. The format of the meeting will involve a presentation from the officials followed by a question and answer session. If issues are raised during the course of the meeting to which the officials do not have specific answers, we will ask them to come back to the committee with responses in writing.

I draw attention to the fact that Members of the Oireachtas and the committee have absolute privilege but that does not apply to witnesses attending the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I call Mr. Philip Nugent to begin his presentation.

Mr. Philip Nugent

I thank the Chairman and the committee for the opportunity to discuss today the housing adaptation grants for older people and people with a disability. I hope to be able to answer all questions. With the agreement of the Chairman and the members, I will undertake to respond in writing to any question I am not in a position to respond to directly today.

Proposals for the future operation of the disabled person's grant, DPG, scheme and essential repairs grant, ERG, scheme were announced in February 2007 as part of the Government's housing policy statement, Delivering Homes, Sustaining Communities. The DPG and ERG schemes, operated by local authorities, were designed to assist in the carrying out of works which, in the opinion of the local authority, were necessary to provide adequate accommodation for disabled and older persons. The special scheme of housing aid for the elderly was designed to undertake emergency repairs for older persons living in unsanitary or unfit conditions.

Significant revisions were made to the terms and conditions of both the DPG and ERG schemes in recent years, including increases in grant levels, the percentage of approved costs payable and the level of recoupment to the local authorities, which had increased from 50% to two thirds before introduction of the new schemes, as well as the introduction of a disabled person's new house grant. These changes resulted in an increase in the level of demand for assistance under the schemes, and expenditure over the ten years up to 2007 increased from approximately €13 million to €65 million.

Following from a commitment set out under the terms of Towards 2016 and to facilitate the continued independent occupancy of their own homes by older people and those with a disability, the Department conducted a major review of the schemes to improve equity and targeting. The review took place in the context of funding difficulties at local level, inconsistencies in administration of the schemes across different authorities, a Government decision in 2006 to transfer responsibility for the special housing aid scheme for the elderly from the Health Service Executive to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, and Government policy to maintain people for as long as possible in their own homes and communities. The review also took into account the experience of a number of local authorities that had been able to prioritise spending through targeting of priority clients and standardised costs.

The primary aims of the review were to ensure the available resources were targeted towards those persons in greatest need, to improve equity and consistency across local authority areas and streamline the administrative and operational procedures governing the schemes, and to provide a more seamless set of responses to the needs of people with a disability and older people.

Following the review, which incorporated the views of local authorities and relevant voluntary organisations, details of the proposed new schemes were set out in the Government's new housing policy statement. The three schemes include the housing adaptation grant for people with a disability, which is designed to assist with the provision or adaptation of accommodation to meet the needs of people with a disability. Works included under this scheme include access ramps, stairlifts, downstairs toilets, accessible showers, wheelchair access and extensions. The effective maximum grant is €30,000 with a new house grant of €14,500. The grant aid can cover 95% of the cost of the works carried out. The scheme is means tested, with the income of the property owner and spouse counting in the case of owner-occupier applicants and the income of the tenant and spouse counting where the applicant is in the private rented sector. There are a number of income disregards relating, for example, to the number of dependent children in the household and other benefits of which the householder may be in receipt.

A mobility aids housing grant scheme was also introduced to fast-track grant aid to address mobility problems primarily associated with ageing. Works carried out under this scheme tend to be relatively minor in comparison with those carried out under the adaption grant for people with a disability. Such works include level access showers, ramps, grab rails, stairlifts, etc. It is targeted at those on lower incomes of the order of approximately €30,000 per annum, and the effective maximum grant is €6,000. This can cover up to 100% of the cost of the works and several income grounds are taken into account. Only one quotation is required given the fast-track nature of the scheme.

A scheme of housing aid for older people was also announced to provide targeted support to improve conditions in the existing housing of older people. This scheme was targeted at those over 60 years of age and the effective maximum grant available was €10,500, which can cover up to 100% of the works. I am happy to return to the specific details of the scheme later on, but I would like to outline some of the more general features of all three.

The levels of grant aid available have increased substantially in response to increases in building costs, and to protect the value of the grants into the future, grant levels will increase annually in line with the building cost index. The recruitment level to local authorities regarding individual grants paid has been increased from two thirds to 80%. Local authorities will provide the remaining 20% from within their own resources. Arrangements governing occupational therapy assessment have also been streamlined and improved. The Department became aware that the position regarding the availability of occupational therapists had improved generally, with shorter waiting times for their services in a certain number of authority areas. The new scheme was built on this by recouping to individual applicants the cost of engaging a private occupational therapist where necessary, thus ensuring no grant applicant is subject to undue delays in accessing grants for this reason. In cases where the local authorities engage the services of a private sector occupational therapist, the department recoups to them 80% of the cost of each assessment.

Local authorities have also been instructed to prioritise applicants on the basis of medical need. In particular where works will facilitate discharge from hospital and continuing care in an applicant's home, and where the works will alleviate the need for hospitalisation in the future, these applications are to be prioritised. To assist applicants in sourcing registered contractors, local authorities were requested to form panels of contractors who will be available to carry out works under the new schemes. This practice was one that had been in operation in many local authority areas previously and had been shown to work effectively and so was rolled out to the local authorities who had not adopted the practice.

Reform of the grant schemes is part of an overall strategic response to the housing needs of older people and people with a disability. The strategy includes the development of a national housing strategy for people with a disability and related inter-agency protocols to deal with co-operation between the HSE and housing authorities to provide a strategic framework for inter-agency co-operation at local level. It also includes the establishment of a cross-departmental team on sheltered housing for older people, which will develop and oversee policy on sheltered housing and agree local structures and protocols for integrated management and delivery of housing and related care services.

Review of the schemes also presented the opportunity to address the issue of the transfer of the special housing aid for the elderly scheme from the HSE to the local authority sector. As the committee will be aware, the core functions of the health service report recommended in future that this scheme should be administered by the local authorities so that a more integrated service can be delivered to address the needs of older people. The new housing aid for older people scheme amalgamates the provisions of the essential repairs and special housing aid for the elderly grant schemes with the aim of providing assistance to older people to have necessary improvements and repair works carried out. The transfer of the scheme poses significant challenges for local authorities in terms of workload and resources. In recognition of this, and to ensure satisfactory resolution of outstanding issues, it was agreed with the HSE that the SHAE would continue to operate, and be administered by the HSE, until 31 March 2008.

However, while the Department, the HSE and the local authority sector engaged in extensive discussions, not all relevant issues regarding the transfer of the scheme, and in particular the issue of staffing resources, could be fully and satisfactorily resolved by the arranged transfer date. Therefore, it was agreed with the HSE earlier this year that the transfer date of 31 March 2008 would be postponed pending resolution of outstanding issues. The issue of staffing resources is yet to be fully resolved, but interim arrangements have now been agreed and the SHAE ceased to exist on 1 August last. The agreed interim arrangements between housing authorities and the HSE provide for joint action and co-operation with regard to administration of the HAOP scheme, and have been developed in consultation with representatives of the City and County Managers Association and the HSE.

I am happy to provide full details of the agreed interim arrangements if the committee wishes. I look forward to hearing the views of the committee members and I will endeavour to address all queries as comprehensively as possible.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Nugent for his opening statement.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

I thank Mr. Nugent for his report and I wish it was as simple as outlined in his report, but it is not simple at all. There have been many years of advocating for one authority to deal with all the grants rather than having them split up between health boards and local authorities. In some cases in Galway, people are still not sure who to deal with. Some files are with the HSE and others are with the city or county council, and people are still applying to both authorities. To add to the confusion they also apply to the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs. It is like a lucky dip. One can qualify for only one grant but owing to confusion people apply to all bodies for grants.

I would like Mr. Nugent to clarify whether the HSE has handed over responsibility for the administration of grants to local authorities? Applicants in Galway city and county were notified earlier this year that their applications cannot be proceeded with because there is no funding available. They were informed their applications will be considered again in 2009, but there is no guarantee they will be approved because that depends on the availability of funding. It is scandalous that applicants have their hopes raised and, having gone to the bother of applying, getting estimates, having the health inspector and engineer out, are then told their applications cannot be proceeded with in 2008 but that if they are lucky their applications will be dealt with in 2009. In the case of the housing adaptation grant, previously the disabled person's grant, I have dealt with cases where the applicants died before the grant was approved or the work finished owing to backlogs and delays.

What is the position regarding the provision of funding to local authorities to deal with the applications they have on hand? It would be better to abolish grants until there is money available rather than leading people on by encouraging them to apply and then telling them their applications cannot be proceeded with.

Senator Camillus Glynn

I welcome the proposals contained in the report, particularly the fact that local authorities have been instructed to prioritise applications on the basis of medical need and where the carrying out of works will facilitate discharge from hospital and the continuance of care in an applicant's own home, alleviating the need for hospitalisation in the future. That is very important and will facilitate the freeing up of beds in both short-term and long-term care.

The health board housing aid for the elderly scheme is a great scheme. Having spent many years as a member of a health board, I saw a tremendous amount of work done under this scheme. The essential repairs grant and the disabled person's grant schemes are both very laudable schemes. However, there was serious difficulty in getting appropriate contractors to carry out work. Over the past ten or 11 years contractors would not look at the types of jobs being done under those schemes because they were too small. Let us hope that now things have cooled off a little we will not have the same difficulties in acquiring the services of contractors.

I welcome the fact that local authorities have been requested to form panels. Will the Department be monitoring that part of the scheme to ensure contractors are competent and have the necessary qualifications, tax clearance certificates and so on? I assume that will continue to obtain as part of the qualifications to participate in the scheme. I would like to think there would be a follow-up from the Department to ensure an adequate supply of contractors to carry out these works because there have been major difficulties in the past.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

I thank Mr. Nugent and Mr. Goldrick for the presentation. Unfortunately, the Minister of State, Deputy Michael Finneran, has not come in——

Chairman

In fairness to the Minister of State, we did not ask him.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

I request that he appear before this committee because in June, during an Adjournment debate, I flagged a number of concerns in regard to this whole scenario. I wish to welcome two positive outcomes. The first is that the whole grants scheme has been put in the one stream. That is a welcome development. In the past there were situations where an elderly person might be having a stairlift installed through the local authority and getting the house rewired through the HSE and the project management involved was a task in itself. That is now being streamlined.

Second, the idea of putting together a preferred tenders list is a welcome development also. For an elderly person, whose spouse may have disabilities, the whole business of going through a procurement process, seeking tenders and dealing with builders is a task in itself. I strongly urge, as an outcome of today's meeting, that the indication given in the report by Mr. Nugent and Mr. Golderick is emphasised to the local authorities. When I was a member of Cork City Council, I raised this issue only to be informed there were procurement and legal difficulties. However, given the small scale jobs that need to be done, some loosening up of the procurement process would be welcome.

In regard to the matter at hand, the disabled persons grant scheme or, rather, the housing adaptation grant scheme has collapsed all over the country. In Cork City Council no more applications are being dealt with. Applications which have been signed off and for which funding has been granted, prior to the summer, are the only ones being dealt with. When I spoke with Cork County Council in August, it told me its cash flow was about to run dry as well. At present it is only prioritising what would have been the old disabled persons grant scheme applications because it had to assess the situation and housing aid for the elderly programmes, such as windows, were being put on the back burner.

The reason the programme collapsed, an issue I referred to the Minister of State, Deputy Finneran, in June, is that the two agencies, the HSE and local authorities, which operated two separate schemes, have converged and there is now a single stream process. Not only has the workload of local authorities increased but it has imposed additional budgetary measures. The simple question that is not being asked is whether the finances which were available to the HSE for administering the scheme for housing aid for older people are being transferred to the local authorities. The answer to that question is "No". The answer I got from the Minister of State, Deputy Finneran, in June was that he will measure the budgets against last year's sums for the housing adaptation programme. He never took into account the additional cost of the scheme to the HSE. As a result, right across the country, this programme has come to a standstill and while applications could be made now, they will not be examined until 2009. It is imperative that the Minister of State appears before the committee and explains how this cock-up happened because there has been a litany of cock-ups in this area.

Provision for this was made in a statutory instrument in the Dáil last November and there was no debate. It is a prerogative of the Minister that a statutory instrument goes through the House. Therefore, there was no opportunity to flag the difficulties.

It was found that the administrative difficulties in putting the two schemes together would be problematic so the scheme was not developed in the roll-out period which was supposed to happen. Deadlines in respect of the roll-out of these schemes still had yet to be met in March of this year. At that time elderly people and people with disabilities badly in need of home adaptation programmes had to move from dealing with the local authority to dealing with the HSE and vice versa because they were told initially that the administration of the scheme was under the remit of the local authority and then they were told it was back under the remit of the HSE because those bodies had not got their act together. The roll-out of this scheme has been a mess but, more critically, the budgetary management of it has been a disaster — which is a consistent pattern of this Government. I am sure that every public representative around this table who is doing his or her job is dealing with high priority cases in this area. I am aware that Cork City Council has written to the Minister seeking additional funds in this respect. Has there been a response to that correspondence? Will additional funds be made available for the scheme?

When I raised this issue with the Minister of State, Deputy Finneran, on an Adjournment debate in June of this year, he indicated how he would address this budgetary difficulty. He said, in this context, to ensure optimum effectiveness of the funding available, his Department has advised all local authorities to monitor very carefully their expenditure under the schemes. He also said that application for additional funding from a number of authorities, including Cork County Council, would be considered by his Department in the light of any savings that would emerge later in the year in other local authority areas. That response was a nonsense in that funding allocated for this scheme will not come in under budget in any local authority. I am sure the delegates will acknowledge that. Therefore, there is a crisis in this respect.

This is a demand-led scheme. One cannot predict where the demand for it will present. Admittedly budgetary management of the scheme is required to contain the allocation of funds from year to year so local authorities can administer it. The mother of all cock-ups has been created in terms of the management of this scheme. While we all welcome the change that has been made, the scheme has collapsed in terms of its management from local authority to local authority and probably nationally. What is being done to ensure a stream of funding will be put back in place for the scheme?

Chairman

I ask the delegates to respond to the questions raised by Deputies McCormack and Ciarán Lynch and Senator Glynn before I take other questions.

Mr. Philip Nugent

I will respond to the questions in the order in which they were raised. I have a fairly lengthy reply on how the interim arrangements are working between the HSE and local authorities. Under the interim arrangements whereby the special housing aid for the elderly, SHAE, scheme has been discontinued since 1 August, all applicants for grant aid under the housing aid for older people, HAOP, scheme will be channelled through the relevant housing authority. The HSE has ceased to accept applications under the SHAE scheme and will generally use existing resources allocated to it to process and clear all applications on-hand. There are varying numbers of applications on waiting lists in different areas around the country.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

Is Mr. Nugent sure that is what is happening on the ground?

Mr. Philip Nugent

That is my understanding of what is happening on the ground.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

I know that is not what is happening, but Mr. Nugent should continue.

Mr. Philip Nugent

The administrative arrangements that have been agreed between the——

Chairman

Is the budget allocated sufficient to clear the backlog of applications in the HSE?

Mr. Philip Nugent

I am referring to the SHAE scheme. It is our understanding from the HSE that the provision for the SHAE scheme this year is sufficient to clear applications.

To respond briefly to Deputy Ciarán Lynch's point, it is understood that any savings in respect of the SHAE scheme, of which there may be some, will be directed towards the HAOP scheme.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

That was not the question I asked; I asked whether there was a budgetary transfer of funds.

Mr. Philip Nugent

I wanted to pick up on that small point and I will return to the question of funding in a moment. It has been agreed between the housing authorities and the HSE that as part of these arrangements the HSE staff currently engaged in the operation of the SHAE scheme will support the local authorities in the implementation of the HAOP scheme, pending the final hand-over of resources from the HSE to local authorities. For the duration of these arrangements, it is essential that there is good communication of regular updates and full exchange of information between housing authorities and the HSE, keeping in mind the priority of applicants' needs at all stages.

The arrangements to be put in place locally between the housing authorities and local health offices to ensure effective liaison regarding grant applications in order that the best outcome is achieved for all applicants, in terms of the timeliness and urgency of need, include the provision that applications traditionally dealt with by local authorities under the essential repairs grant, ERG, scheme will be processed by housing authorities from within existing resources. Subject to available funding, other applications which, in consultation between local authority and relevant HSE staff, are deemed to be of a health care related nature and do not come within the scope of the old ERG scheme will be assessed by the HSE in line with the agreement reached for the continued assignment of existing HSE staff resources to the scheme pending final hand-over of the scheme to the local authorities.

If Deputy McCormack wishes, I can give him the full circular that was issued to the local authorities.

Chairman

Mr. Nugent might make that available after the meeting.

Mr. Philip Nugent

I am not aware of this not being followed on the ground. If the Deputy is, I would welcome that information. I can continue to read the document or I can circulate it to the members.

Chairman

How long is the document?

Mr. Philip Nugent

It is quite lengthy.

Chairman

Perhaps you will circulate it afterwards.

Mr. Philip Nugent

I will. With regard to the funding, and this question has been raised by all members of the committee, demand for the schemes has outstripped the level of funding available. We are doing all we can to try to find resources elsewhere not just from savings arising in other local authority areas given that, as Deputy Lynch correctly points out, there will not be any this year, but from other areas within the overall housing budget. We are optimistic that there will be some. Arrangements are being made at present to provide——

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

The local authorities are sending letters to people telling them they cannot be approved in 2008 but they might be approved in 2009, but that it will depend on funding. Is Mr. Nugent aware they are sending those letters to very concerned applicants who thought they were approved for schemes?

Mr. Philip Nugent

Yes.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

He is?

Mr. Philip Nugent

Yes.

Chairman

There are thousands of such people.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

What is happening?

Mr. Philip Nugent

We are doing all we can to identify savings elsewhere in the housing area so we can direct them towards this——

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

For God's sake.

Mr. Philip Nugent

——with absolute priority. Arrangements are being made at present to provide additional allocations to the authorities that are worst affected by the most significant levels of demand.

Chairman

When is it expected to notify them?

Mr. Philip Nugent

Notifications are issuing at present to some of them.

Chairman

Will it happen within the next week?

Mr. Philip Nugent

Some have already issued.

Chairman

How soon can you supply the committee with a list of the notifications that have been sent?

Mr. Philip Nugent

Later today.

Chairman

Are more notifications to be sent?

Mr. Philip Nugent

We are hopeful that we can identify further resources and that an additional round of allocations can be made, possibly within the next few weeks.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

Could Mr. Nugent circulate a list of what will be given to the various local authorities?

Mr. Philip Nugent

Yes, I will do that later today.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

On a point of information, when Mr. Nugent speaks of notifications does he mean allocations?

Mr. Philip Nugent

Yes.

Chairman

Additional allocations?

Mr. Philip Nugent

Yes.

Chairman

Will you send it to the clerk of the committee who will e-mail it to the committee members?

Mr. Philip Nugent

Yes. Hopefully, that will not be the final word on allocations for this year. We hope to be in a position to provide additional resources to the authorities that are not getting any additional allocations this time. We hope to be able to provide further allocations in the coming weeks but that is obviously subject to savings arising elsewhere in the budget.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

Will the local authorities then write to people explaining that their earlier letter was a mistake, that they now have the money and that people can proceed with the work?

Mr. Philip Nugent

I would not say the earlier letter was a mistake but that their funding arrangements have changed and that they hopefully will be in a position to look after the people who unfortunately received conflicting information from the local authorities.

Chairman

I will clarify the Deputy's point. If a local authority is told it has an extra €200,000 in October, recoupment must be back to the Department by the end of November. No new work will be cleared. The authorities will probably clear the bills that have piled up for work done. It will not be possible to approve work in October and have it completed by November. The funding will be used to clear the bills, not for new work. I am being practical about this.

Mr. Philip Nugent

That is correct.

Chairman

It will not be used for new approvals this year but to pay the bills that have arisen.

Mr. Philip Nugent

That is correct. Deputy Lynch said the scheme has collapsed in Cork due to lack of funding. As I said, we are hopeful we can provide additional resources to those authorities that have been most significantly affected so far.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

I do not intend to push Mr. Nugent on the point but is it the Department's view that the housing adaptation scheme, the generic term we now use for the DPG and housing aid for the elderly schemes, has come to a standstill nationally?

Mr. Philip Nugent

It would not be fair to say it has come to a standstill nationally. It has possibly reached a standstill in some areas, but not in others.

Chairman

Do you know how many applications are on hand and what will be the estimated total cost for the local authorities of meeting demand?

Mr. Philip Nugent

We do not have that information.

Chairman

It is hard to say you are clearing a backlog when you do not know how many applications are on file.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

On a point of information, I can give the figures for Cork city as of 8 September 2008. There were 469 applications in 2007 and all of them were dealt with. The funding was available because a budget was put in place to deal with a specific programme. In 2008, 512 applications have been dealt with out of a total of 981 which means that there are 326 people in Cork city waiting until 1 January for any hope that those necessary works to their homes will be carried out. They are only the Cork city figures so the figure is running into thousands.

Mr. Philip Nugent

I can probably come back to the Deputy. It will take me a couple of days to try to get a picture of it but I will undertake to do that.

Chairman

It is a matter very close to the heart of every public representative.

Mr. Philip Nugent

I understand that.

Senator Camillus Glynn

In regard to the contractors, I asked that the Department ensure an adequate supply of contractors. It is important to put pressure on the local authorities to ensure an adequate list. There have been problems. Is Mr. Nugent aware of that?

Mr. Philip Nugent

We are not aware of any difficulty with that so far. We have a commitment——

Senator Camillus Glynn

It is like watching paint dry in some areas.

Mr. Philip Nugent

——to undertake an independent assessment of the implementation of the schemes. At that stage, we would expect that issues such as that would emerge but we have not received any significant volume of complaints from the public to the effect that local authorities have not provided lists of contractors.

Senator Camillus Glynn

Will the Department ensure each local authority administering the scheme supplies it with a list of competent contractors to carry out those works and ensure what happened in the past does not happen again in so far as is possible?

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

That is not the biggest concern.

Senator Camillus Glynn

From my knowledge, it is.

Deputy Eamon Scanlon

There is no question that the scheme is a good idea. Funding this year was based on moneys provided by local authorities and grant aid given last year. That was probably a mistake because this year Leitrim County Council, because it had spent a substantial sum of money on the disabled person's grant scheme and on the essential repairs grant scheme, received a grant of €1.2 million. That is welcome because it is a very rural county and an area in which many elderly people live.

My county of Sligo received a grant of €490,000 this year. Unfortunately, the council did not provide sufficient funds to meet the demand. The new scheme is a good one and I am sure it will work in time. In Sligo, the total amount paid out so far in 2008 is €303,000. Current commitments, that is, grants approved, total €530,000. Grants currently processed total €567,000. As I said, that is from a grant of nearly €500,000 plus a top up of €300,000 which the county received quite recently and which is welcome. However, that still leaves a shortfall. There is no doubt that there has been a big take-up of this grant. It should be sorted out in another year but it will take funding to do that.

I refer to the improvement in lieu scheme which has been very successful in recent years. Money used to provide the schemes in counties comes from the sale of county council houses. Only one house was sold in County Sligo this year which means the scheme is effectively defunct unless the Department comes up some other funding mechanism for it. A number of people are waiting on that scheme so perhaps Mr. Nugent might look at that as well because it is important to many people. I hope this will come right. It is a good scheme and people are very happy with it.

Part of the problem over the years was the funding system for these grants. I speak as a former councillor who was a member of Sligo County Council. I know councils were not putting the money into these grants. They should have provided 20% but were not doing so. In 1992 we forced the then manager to borrow €500,000 to clear what was a bad backlog but, unfortunately, it seems to have been drifting since then. It is important councils recognise they will have to provide for these grants in their estimates.

Senator Paudie Coffey

I also welcome Mr. Nugent and Mr. Goldrick to the meeting. This issue concerns many people. Public representatives of all shades are very concerned about the administration of the scheme. I acknowledge the benefits of the DPG and essential repairs grants. They delivered great benefits to elderly and disabled people and operated well over the years. Unfortunately while I welcome in principle the amalgamation of the scheme, which has obvious benefits through efficiencies and so on, I am critical that it was not properly thought through before the scheme was introduced. In their submission to the committee the departmental officials said local mechanisms are in place and working. I can assure them they are not working. I can give examples in Waterford. Only two weeks ago the local Oireachtas Members from Waterford met a senior manager in the HSE. I asked him a pointed question about the overlap and the status of applicants who have been on the HSE list for six months or a year with regard to grant aid. He more or less shrugged his shoulders and stated it was no longer the HSE's responsibility but was the responsibility of the local authority. When I asked who would fund it he could not answer me. This senior manager, who had responsibility for this area, has now washed his hands completely of it and has handed it over to the local authority, which we now know is in deep trouble regarding resources and financing.

To be constructively critical, the scheme at the moment is a disaster because the hand-over from the HSE to the local authorities was not properly thought through. Some attention will be needed. I call for a high-level meeting involving departmental officials, such as the witnesses before us, senior officials in the HSE and the County and City Managers Association. We cannot leave it up to each local authority and each HSE manager to make his own arrangements. There should be a clear properly resourced pathway for the hand-over. Some of these people are falling between stools. They have been on the list for more than a year, which is most unfair as they are our most vulnerable — the elderly and disabled. This is not a proper way to treat people.

Regarding funding versus demand, while the demand is great, as we all know, we are getting conflicting stories. We hear from the Department that surpluses in some counties will be handed over to others. Surely there is an ongoing assessment of demand. We have local authorities that are supposed to operate at the coalface with our communities. Surely every application made should be put into a database and sent to the Department to monitor the demand. As a public representative for nearly seven years, I have never witnessed such codology as applications from elderly people since last July being returned with the advice to reapply next year. These are elderly people living alone in many cases who may not even know how to complete a form. This is a disgraceful way to treat our elderly. We need to get to grips with the departmental, local authority and HSE officials so that this treatment of our elderly will not continue. Even if funding is not be available, it is not an appropriate way to deal with people. We should not just send bland letters asking people to reapply in six months' time.

Regarding occupational therapists, I was chair of a strategic policy committee on housing on Waterford County Council for more than five years. At the beginning we had a problem getting occupational therapists from the HSE. They were not available as their workloads were too high. In fairness to Waterford County Council, it adopted the approach mentioned here and hired an occupational therapist privately and then recouped some of the cost, following which the scheme worked considerably better. In the past year or two the council has stopped hiring occupational therapists to save funds and there is no obligation to hire them. The responsibility again falls to the HSE. However, there is a breakdown in whole flow because with the recruitment freeze some of the occupational therapists have moved on or retired and are not being replaced even though the workload still exists. The scheme is held up again. This is what is happening on the ground and I hope the officials will take on board what I say.

We need accountability and responsibility at either local authority or HSE level until it is finalised. The HSE should not be absolved of any responsibility until it has dealt with all its applicants. A high-level meeting needs to be arranged to resolve this issue. These schemes are in chaos throughout the country. That is the message we around this table are getting.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

I thank the officials from the Department for their presentation. They outlined how these schemes are supposed to work, as opposed to how they are actually working. It is impossible to over-emphasise the importance of the schemes. The saving to the Exchequer as a result of them has not been mentioned this morning. The money that is spent on them is keeping many people out of hospital. We should consider this issue in that context. Like everyone else, I do not feel the schemes are working as they should. We need to get some heads together if the schemes are to get up and running. They are relatively new, but we know they are good. They picked up where the older schemes left off.

Senator Coffey suggested that representatives of the Department should meet the officials from the local authorities who are responsible for rolling out these schemes. Some common sense is needed at such meetings. Deputy Lynch spoke about the problems being encountered by Cork City Council. I am aware of a shortfall of approximately €2 million in respect of these schemes at Cork County Council level.

I refer to jobs which have been approved. What can we say to those who do not know, as winter approaches, whether a job which should have been started by now will be started at all? I am talking about people who should already be availing of the comfort they would enjoy if these jobs were finished. Something needs to be done soon. We need to start by engaging with the local authorities. While the amount of money involved might seem substantial, it is insignificant when one reflects on the number of hospital beds which would be freed up if these jobs were done. If proper accommodation is not offered to elderly people, they will get pneumonia and various other illnesses, causing them to be in hospital for the winter. If we give disabled people and others the facilities they need in their own houses, they will not have to go to hospital. They will be able to achieve at home much of what they would have been trying to achieve in hospital. We must look at it from that point of view. The message this committee needs to send is that all concerned should dig in and do whatever it takes to make progress. Senator Coffey's suggestion — that the officials in the Department should meet their counterparts in the relevant local authorities to set out the situation as it stands and iron out the various problems — should be taken up immediately.

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

I understand that local authorities meet 20% of the costs of this scheme. How many local authorities have not provided sufficient funding, to be added to the contribution of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, to meet the demand in the relevant local area? I am interested in hearing the answer to that question. How many local authorities have provided additional funding, over and above the requirement on them, because the Department has not provided the moneys it is required to provide?

This scheme has been working well in County Kildare over recent months. Payments are being made. Is a single quotation required in each of the three categories? If that is the case, it is a good system.

I am concerned about the length of time that elapses between the lodging of the application and the granting of approval for a project. It seems to take local authorities a long time to approve these schemes. The County and City Managers Association, which has been mentioned, should be able to ensure that the scheme is streamlined on a national basis, as well as on a local authority basis.

I understand Deputy McCormack's point that local authorities are reluctant to employ private occupational therapists because they have to pay 20% of the cost. There is an issue in that regard.

While the housing scheme is very good, in an era of climate change it is not sufficient to focus on the insulation of ceilings. One rarely hears of works to insulate walls, doors or windows. While that may be fine in a terrace of houses, more insulation is needed in the case of isolated cottages to take cognisance of climate change.

Under the regulations, those aged 60 years and over qualify for the grant. What discretion is available in cases involving people aged under 60 years?

Senator Paul Bradford

I thank my colleagues for allowing me to attend the meeting as the issue of housing adaptation grants for disabled persons and housing grants in general is dear to my heart. Of all the schemes with which I have been involved over the past 20 years, the housing adaptation schemes have been the greatest success for the people I represent.

I appreciate that expenditure on the schemes has increased from €10 million to €65 million. As an expert in these matters who sat on the Committee of Public Accounts, the Chairman will acknowledge that €65 million is a drop in the ocean when viewed in the context of the national budget. The schemes provides extraordinary value and have been a tremendous success story.

There have been administrative and financial difficulties. We must recognise that a major financial problem has arisen because local authorities are not in receipt of sufficient funding from the Government to allow grants to proceed. On the administrative side, I welcome the decision to streamline and amalgamate the schemes and expect early teething problems to be overcome.

Even when the housing adaptation schemes were working well with no funding difficulties, different local authorities operated at different speeds and with different levels of enthusiasm. When I was a Dáil Deputy, my constituency straddled two local authority administrative areas. North Cork, south Cork and west Cork are essentially three separate local authorities. I can state without fear of contradiction that in north Cork grants were processed at three or four times the speed they were processed in south Cork. It was a pleasure for me to ring the Annabella office in Mallow with a query from north Cork because the work would be done with no difficulty. However, if the next query came from the other side of my constituency, it would be processed in south Cork where every possible obstacle was placed in the way of applicants. Some local authorities took a proactive and generous approach to the schemes which they regarded as a solution to the housing needs of many local residents while others regarded the administration of the schemes as a burden. The latter view is not acceptable. We should insist that local authorities sell and use the scheme to the maximum possible extent.

When we seek out best practice, we should examine the approaches taken in areas such as north Cork. It is unacceptable that the same grant for the same type of project could take three to four times as long to process in south Cork as in north Cork. I hope this will not happen again.

Money is now at issue. I was pleased to learn that letters will be issued today or tomorrow. Members who contact Government colleagues or listen to local radio will hear the good news but it does not appear to be as good as we had expected because additional resources will be made available only to fund announcements which have been made and grants which have been committed.

The people contacting elected representatives at the moment have submitted applications for grants in the past four or five months. In north Cork, the scheme was officially put on hold in April or thereabouts but the local authority continues to accept applications. It is informing applicants, however, that their applications will be held on file until such time as further funding is made available. Additional funding is, therefore, needed.

I concur with Deputy Ciarán Lynch that the joint committee should invite the Minister of State to come before us. I appreciate, however, that the Minister of State was not invited to attend this meeting.

The main issue with the scheme is one of resources because the current administrative difficulties can be overcome. It is a question of financial resources. The current cost of approximately €65 million is extraordinarily good value because it makes a major difference to the lives of thousands of elderly people and their families. The scheme has also been beneficial for small builders. Much good work has been done by small contractors and VAT and income tax is being paid. I do not say the scheme is self-financing but in many ways and certainly from a social perspective it is well worth it. I am the first to acknowledge the financial difficulties faced by the Government and I accept that there will have to be some constraint on spending. The Comptroller and Auditor General published a report yesterday on large budgets with question marks over them, but there could never have been a question mark over this expenditure because every euro produced good results from financial, social and environmental points of view. We can ask the Minister to not just find savings in the scheme but to come up with hard cash as the scheme pays for itself time and again.

Deputy Scanlon referred to improvement works in lieu of rehousing. I do not bash any particular local authority. Deputy Ciarán Lynch probably knows south Cork better than I do but I believe I am correct in saying that although the scheme had been working well in north Cork for four or five years, it did not exist in south Cork. I got tired of raising the matter at council meetings. I do not understand how one local authority can implement a scheme funded by the taxpayer intended to produce certain results, while another local authority either does not wish to do so or, when forced to introduce such a scheme, puts every possible obstacle in the way of applicants. That should not be acceptable.

I endorse Senator Coffey's point that we should try to knock heads together to get results. The onus is on the Minister to come up with the finance but we could all make a few suggestions about the anomalies, administration and levels of enthusiasm or otherwise that are apparent in local authorities. The scheme is a national one and should be available to people in every town and townland. I wish the officials well in their efforts to secure additional funding. I hope the Chairman will take up the suggestion to invite the Minister to the committee to discuss the funding and administration of the scheme as it is worth too much to the elderly for us to allow it to disappear. Other than the home improvement grants scheme that no longer exists, this scheme has been the best one introduced by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government in the past 20 or 30 years. It is one of the few schemes that one can say has made a difference to people's lives and we should defend it, try to expand it and make it work as effectively and efficiently as possible.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

Is it agreed that we invite the Minister to the committee?

Chairman

We will do so if that is the conclusion of the committee.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

I wish to make clear that the purpose of the meeting is not to attribute blame to the officials. There are four corners to the issue. First, there is the system and structure of the grants scheme and as public representatives we have experience of that. As Senator Bradford indicated, anybody who has enabled an applicant to the disabled person's grant scheme to successfully apply for it experiences great satisfaction because one can see the quality of life changes that result from it. It is one of the most positive programmes that has been rolled out at a local level. The big structural change that has taken place is that it is all under one roof now. That is a welcome development. We can discuss the future of the system because we have a particular experience that would assist the officials to improve the structure.

The other two corners are the delivery and funding of the programme. One measures the programme by its delivery, in respect of which some local authorities have been better than others. While this requires investigation, there will be no further delivery of the programme for the remainder of the year unless local authorities receive a budgetary top-up. This issue was flagged with the Minister in June. It is not therefore a civil servant who has created the problem but the Minister himself.

In June, I stated to the Minister that Cork City Council's budget had increased from €1.827 million to €1.837 million, an increase of €30,000. Anyone with experience of the disabled persons grant scheme will know that €30,000 will purchase two to three stairlifts, or one stairlift and a bathroom conversion, or would comprise the maximum grant for a downstairs extension. In meaningful terms, the city council's increase paid for an extension to the back of just one house in the city. There was a €63,000 increase in the budget of Cork County Council from one year to the next, which is just double the sum made available to the city council.

Action needs to be taken on foot of this meeting. It is not a case of local authorities just dealing with the present backlog because applications are still being received. A more significant measure needs to be adopted in this regard. Critically, and this is the question I would like answered, will the budget the Health Service Executive had for the housing aid for the elderly programme be incorporated into that for the new programme next year? Alternatively, will it just be absorbed by the HSE and kept within the circle? This is key. This is schoolyard economics but, unfortunately, it reflects the recent economic stance of the Minister for Education and Science, who was formerly a Minister of State in the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, where one gets silly mathematics.

If one merges two housing programmes dealing with adaptations but does not merge their two stand-alone budgets, one will run into problems. In the case in question, the budgets were not merged, thus resulting in the problem flagged to the Minister in June. What I am hearing this afternoon is that he did not see the flag flying and has not acted on it. He should be on the telephone to the Minister for Health and Children asking for the money to roll out the scheme. I hear this afternoon that the telephone was never picked up.

Chairman

On a point of clarification——

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

It is on the Dáil record, Chairman. This matter was raised in June on an Adjournment debate with the Minister of State, Deputy Finneran. He stated to me there was no difficulty with this matter.

Chairman

The allocation for housing aid for the elderly, which was dealt with through the HSE, came from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government in the first place. I have a notion that the Deputy has a misconception regarding everything he has been saying about this topic all day. As I understand it, the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government pays the local authorities directly for the disabled persons and elderly persons grants. The Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, employing the same people in the same section, gave an allocation to the HSE for the other scheme. The money came from the one source.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

Has the allocation come back?

Chairman

It was only coming from one——

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

When responsibility for the scheme was transferred, the allocation should have travelled with it. Where is the allocation?

Chairman

The HSE continued to spend money on it this year. We will ask the officials to clarify the matter.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

The HSE is accepting no more applications. What will be the position on the scheme next year?

Chairman

We will ask the officials to clarify that point.

Mr. Philip Nugent

There is a backlog of three to 18 months' work and it will consume that allocation. The allocation came from the Department to the HSE and anything left over is due to come back to us. It does not appear at this stage, however, that any money will be left over because there are still three to 18 months of applications to process under that allocation.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

That allocation went to the HSE on an annual basis but the scheme no longer exists in the HSE. Will that allocation be ring-fenced by the Department and given to the local authorities or will it disappear?

Mr. Philip Nugent

The total allocation for the housing adaptation grant for people with a disability and mobility aids grant scheme was approximately €69 million.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

That is the HSE's moneys.

Mr. Philip Nugent

No, that is the total allocation from the Department and matched by the local authorities by 20%.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

I am trying to follow the money. Funds were ring-fenced by the HSE for this programme.

Mr. Philip Nugent

The €19 million for the special housing aid for the elderly scheme was separate to that.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

Is that the amount going into the budget next year?

Mr. Philip Nugent

That will be decided in the Estimates process.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

Mr. Nugent does not know then.

Mr. Philip Nugent

The level of funding available will be decided in the Estimates process. That is not a matter upon which I am in a position to comment.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

There is a key point in this. Moneys were ring-fenced for a particular scheme by the Department. The scheme is no longer in operation.

Chairman

Moneys are still being expended on the scheme.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

Since 1 August the scheme no longer exists.

Mr. Philip Nugent

The money is still available.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

There is a backlog in the scheme, when it existed, which is being dealt with.

Mr. Philip Nugent

That is what accounts for that funding.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

People can no longer apply to the scheme "going forward", to use a favourite Government term. However, moneys were ring-fenced for the scheme in the 2008 Estimates. The budget is only several weeks away which means the Estimates will come before the committee soon. Where have these moneys gone in the Estimates?

Mr. Philip Nugent

There was an overall allocation last year for all these schemes and there will be an overall allocation next year for all these schemes. The level of allocation has not yet been decided and will not be decided until the Estimates have been fully resolved by us and the Department of Finance. That will be determined by the wider availability of resources.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

Senator Camillus Glynn referred to the unavailability of contractors in the past to do this type of work. As there are many contractors seeking this type of work now, it is a good time to get value for money for the schemes. Senator Paul Bradford referred to Cork County Council. While there are three different geographical divisions within the council, it is still the same local authority. The difference in the timescales for processing these applications in various areas is substantial. There is only one scheme in the west Cork division of Cork County Council for a work in lieu which has been ongoing for three years. In north Cork, the same scheme can be rolled out in a shorter time. I want the Department to set down a reasonable timeframe for processing of applications.

Mr. Philip Nugent

Neither the Department nor the local authorities have been found wanting in engagement with the HSE. Some difficult human resources issues had to be resolved with the HSE. The Department and the local authorities have been in a position to move on this for some time.

Difficulties experienced by people in filling out application forms is an issue we have flagged to local authorities. They should, on demand, provide assistance to people having difficulty filling out application forms. It can be a daunting process. Local authorities have been asked to do this.

A question was asked whether any local authority had allocated additional funds from within its own resources that had not yet been matched by the Department. I am not aware of any which has done so. Most local authorities have requested an additional allocation from the Department which they will match from their own resources. They are still at the stage where they are waiting for us to allocate them additional resources. I hope we will be able to look after most of them to some degree. Another issue is that the number of tenant purchases has fallen considerably, as a consequence of which some local authorities are facing difficulties and will not be in a position to allocate significant funding without it being matched by the Department. It is unlikely that a local authority would allocate funds and not expect it to be matched by the Department.

It is difficult for us to say what the extent of the delays will be. They are determined by levels of demand in each local authority area. They are probably also determined by the extent to which local authorities are trying to clear the backlog of DPG and ERG applications. It is important to remember that we are still in the first ten months of operation of these schemes; therefore, there may still be some inconsistencies to iron out. I expect that the time between making an application and a decision on it will come down, subject to resources being available. This is something on which we would welcome views when we carry out the independent assessment.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

The critical aspect seems to be the occupational therapist's report. My experience of all these applications is that we can have quotations and everything else, but that it is all contingent on the occupational therapist'sreport. The builders’ quotations must be to the occupational therapist’s specifications. I have often seen quotations being thrown out because they do not match the specifications. The critical aspect of any DPG application is the occupational therapist which must be placed at the front end. However, across the country it is at the back end and there will always be delays because the occupational therapistis not in place.

Deputy Eamon Scanlon

If an old person in a wheelchair is waiting on a report from an occupational therapist in those circumstances, it is a total waste of time. That should not be the case, but it is happening.

Senator Paul Bradford

I think having an occupational therapist's report as a necessary part of an application became standard practice around seven or eight years ago. I do not want to make out that Cork is an independent republic or even a tripartite republic, but we were not using occupational therapists in north Cork, whereas in south Cork they were being used to the maximum. It is now almost the norm that when the occupational therapist's report finally comes through, it produces a proposal of construction which is significantly more advanced in its design, scope, scale and cost than would have been the case before the occupational therapist's report became such a part of the overall scheme.

The occupational therapists are obviously doing their work from a professional perspective, but it can be bizarre when one is approached by a constituent who is looking to have a small job done — one would not have to be an engineer or an occupational therapist to know what has to be done at minimum cost — yet 12 months later it has become five times more expensive, with glossy plans and the occupational therapist's report. This is costing the taxpayer, the council and the Government more, yet it is a project that is probably not fully required. While we cannot pull back from the concept of occupational therapist reports, such reports have resulted in works that the applicants often did not seek. Before the introduction of occupational therapist reports, we had well designed buildings, appropriate to the needs of our constituents and which provided effective, working facilities. We are now designing much fancier and much more expensive buildings and there are much greater delays.

If we are reviewing the reviews, I would like us to reconsider the entire concept. Previously, the council engineer went out and decided what needed or did not need to be done. A doctor's report was provided with the application and a quotation was required — this was prior to the days when there were two or three quotations. If the quotation was over the top, it was not accepted. The council engineer, from his or her experience, knew what the job should cost and only grant-aided a certain amount. That might not be as scientific, fancy, computer-generated or data process-based as is now the case but it certainly worked quicker and better and in a more streamlined and straightforward manner. We were actually getting work done. Now, we are receiving reports but very little work is done. While I am not saying "Back to the future", some of the changes made have been good for book work but bad for construction and clients.

Mr. Philip Nugent

To clarify, it is not a statutory requirement that an occupational therapist's report be submitted in all cases. Regulations do not require submission of each application to an occupational therapist, OT. Local authorities have been instructed in the guidance documentation to consider, based on the reports of their inspector and the applicant's general practitioner, as well as the long-term needs of the applicant, whether it is necessary to refer the application to an occupational therapist. It is not a statutory requirement——

Chairman

To which scheme is Mr. Nugent referring? Is he referring to all three schemes?

Mr. Philip Nugent

I meant the housing adaptation grant for people with a disability.

Senator Paul Bradford

It is different from the norm. I speak from the perspective of a local authority which did not use OT reports at a time when other local authorities did. The word must have gone out from somewhere that OT reports were mandatory. If one was an ordinary constituent or politician reading the application form, one would believe the OT's report was vital to the scheme, particularly if one was waiting a long time, perhaps six to ten months, for such a report.

I am glad to receive clarification but this matter requires political leadership with regard to the sort of scheme we want. Do we want a scheme, as we had in the 1980s and 1990s, which works and does the job, if members will excuse the pun, or do we want a scheme that results, as Deputy O'Sullivan said, in one improvement works in lieu scheme in west Cork? I am sure the paperwork is proper but, sadly for those waiting, we need delivery at the core. A disabled person, whether adult or child, needs results immediately, not in 12 or 24 months.

While I am not a member of the committee, I appreciate the financial side, the issue I came here to discuss. The financial side is important but, as we are having this debate, we must recognise that the Department of Finance is responsible for administering the scheme and going down the cul de sac it has gone down in the past three or four years has not been helpful and is not producing what we require — an instant response to those who are in urgent need. It is bizarre in our advanced society, with its advanced technology and administration, that the scheme was much more effective and useful when we had virtually no money in the 1980s and 1990s, when such schemes were administered by the local authorities almost automatically.

Mr. Philip Nugent

To further clarify and assist, it is not a mandatory requirement under the mobility aid grants scheme or the housing aid for older people scheme for an OT's report to be submitted. I imagine it is more typical that an OT's report would be required under the adaptation grant for people with a disability scheme because that tends to fund the more significant works, and it is probably a sensible approach to require an OT's report in such cases. The other two schemes deal with relatively minor works.

Deputy Fitzpatrick referred to energy efficiency. Double glazing is also covered under the adaptation grants scheme for older people. If a local authority deems it necessary, wall insulation can also be covered. I will have to come back to Deputy Scanlon on his point as it is not our direct responsibility.

Chairman

Mr. Nugent can see the tremendous interest in the scheme among members, which proves that, warts and all, it is working well. It is recognised that many have got good value from it and it is good to see something concrete done for elderly people. However, one of my criticisms is that the schemes are not user-friendly. I would begin by going back to basics.

When such new schemes were being introduced, I would like to think someone in the Department or wherever had access to ten old age pensioners to advise on what they needed. Perhaps Mr. Nugent will tell me this happened. When the Department reviews the scheme, it should talk to an organisation such as Age Action Ireland.

All members have encountered cases such as that of an elderly couple in their 70s who are in receipt of non-contributary old age pensions, which proves they have no means beyond the few hundred euro a week thus accrued. When such people send in a form, they receive a letter in return asking for their tax clearance certificate. However, they have never heard of such a form and do not know the tax office's location. This constitutes the start of the process. The applicants then are obliged to submit two quotations but do not know how to approach a builder. After both quotations are submitted, the occupational therapist will come along eventually but may not approve the work for which the builder gave the quotation. Some of the systems are a little back to front. For example, the form should be submitted first, as trips are being imposed on both builders and those old people who must attempt to find a builder. The system is being made to work by people such as members and local councillors. One should acknowledge that some great councillors keep the system running in spite of the bureaucracy. Councillors are running back and forth between builders and applicants. The system is not designed for old people to be able to deal with their own cases and asking for the quotes up front constitutes an unnecessary burden.

I refer to housing aid for older people. I understand it really means housing aid for older people with a doctor's certificate. Those who wish to replace a back door because it is draughty will require a doctor's letter. My understanding is that having a doctor's letter is becoming the practice among local authorities, even to secure housing aid for older people. As the Department has asked local authorities to prioritise and target such provision, the person with a doctor's letter has a high priority, while the person without such a letter certainly is at the bottom of the pile. Such an application will not get through the system without a doctor's letter. My point is that while local authorities may be overly enthusiastic in this regard, requirements such as tax certificates and so on for old people constitute an undue burden.

I wish to ask Mr. Nugent about the resources provided for local authorities to manage the new scheme. In particular, I have to hand from a local authority details of the means test it is to carry out. It includes matters such as calculation of household incomes, evidence of ownership of property and household income, income disregard, indexation and so on. A new task of carrying out a means test has been assigned to social workers or other employees of local authorities without providing such staff members the statutory back-up to carry out such tests. For example, when such schemes for the elderly were within the remit of the HSE, community welfare officers had rights. Mr. Nugent should revert to me on this point. I understand that when health boards were responsible for the schemes, they had the legal authority under data protection regulations to gain access to a person's pension and income details, as community welfare officers were able to tap into such information.

My point is that local authorities which now are responsible for conducting such means tests do not have the same access to a person's financial or related information as did the HSE. I also have been informed that permission has been given for some information to transfer under licence to select individuals within local authorities at approved level, probably for data protection reasons. However, it still is less information. As for the idea of asking for a tax clearance certificate, community welfare officers did not seek such information because they were familiar with people's entire means. While the Department has transferred the burden of proving income eligibility to the local authority, I do not believe it has provided them with any new resources to so do. It has placed an additional layer of bureaucracy on councils which, in turn, through the aforementioned standard forms, have obliged 80 year old applicants to produce such information. However, had it been possible to transfer the information available through the HSE to the local authorities with the scheme, the latter would not have needed to ask some of these questions. Mr. Nugent understands my point and should clarify the exact transfer of such financial information because it weighs down many such forms.

Mr. Philip Nugent

While I do not intend to refute anything the Chairman has said, at the same time——

Chairman

Was what I said a reasonable representation of the current position?

Mr. Philip Nugent

I cannot comment on whether the Health Service Executive had direct access to people's financial records. I am unsure of the——

Chairman

A welfare officer would know people's pensions and so on.

Mr. Philip Nugent

Local authorities administer complex housing schemes on a day-to-day basis and carry out means testing for a variety of other reasons. The nature of the work they have been given under the new scheme is not a radical shift from their previous work.

Chairman

To tease out that point, there was no requirement for a means test under the disabled persons and essential repairs grant schemes.

Mr. Philip Nugent

There was——

Chairman

I must hold Mr. Nugent back. Most local authorities have hundreds of applications that, under the new scheme and unlike previously, require means tests. Some local authorities did a certain——

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

The schemes had a means test, but it was based on age levels.

Mr. Philip Nugent

That is what I was about to say. Some local authorities operated a means test whereas others did not.

Chairman

They were not required to previously, but they are currently. It is a considerable difference.

Mr. Philip Nugent

A main issue that the new schemes were intended to address was that of the inconsistency of implementation of the DPG and the ERG schemes across local authorities. Currently, there are standardised application forms, approval procedures and means tests.

Chairman

Mr. Nugent might give the committee some information. Will he talk members through the backlog in respect of DPG and ERG applications from 2006, never mind 2007? Given that the grant and the level of recoupment available to local authorities are greater under the new scheme, I would have believed a housing officer would have encouraged people to apply under the new scheme. However, housing officers do not seem to have done so. Perhaps they were burdened with the volume of applications. How long will the old DPG and ERG applications continue to be processed and when will new applications be started?

Some local authorities intend to write to some of the people on the old ERG waiting lists to inform them they will not be approved this year, that the old scheme has closed and that they should re-apply under the new scheme, the name of which they will be given. What are Mr. Nugent's comments in this regard?

Mr. Philip Nugent

That is true. The DPG and ERG have been discontinued. It is difficult to say with any degree of certainty when any applications will be finalised and flushed out of the system. Volume varies from one authority to another.

Chairman

Is a procedure in place to write to people telling them the system has closed and, if they are still interested in having work done on their houses, to apply under the new scheme?

Mr. Philip Nugent

I will revert to the Chairman.

Chairman

The schemes were set up to eliminate inconsistency. Has the Department liaised with the housing officers of each local authority to ensure consistency? In the case of a two-county constituency such as mine, there is no point in one local authority telling a person that, as the old scheme is gone, he or she should re-apply using the new form if he or she wishes to be reconsidered next year whereas the other local authority does the opposite. There should be consistency.

Mr. Philip Nugent

Extensive guidance has issued to all local authorities. If it will assist the committee, I can supply it with all the guidance circulars issued with the new schemes since last year.

Chairman

I know about the new schemes. I am referring to old applications.

Mr. Philip Nugent

In terms of the flow from old to new, the guidance covers the phasing out of the old.

Chairman

Local authorities have stopped accepting applications for the ERG and the DPG, but what of the hundreds of applications still in the system? It is a funny situation. In three years' time, will old ERGs still await approval or will a shutter drop, the files be shredded and people told to re-apply? What will happen to the old applications?

Mr. Philip Nugent

If they are in the system under the old scheme, they must be approved under that scheme. We will not be discussing this issue in three years' time.

Chairman

Will the Department continue a line of funding for ERGs, DPGs and the three new schemes?

Mr. Philip Nugent

We will be in the hands of the authorities. If they tell us that grants remain to be paid under the schemes, it will be up to them to direct resources between the old and new schemes from the allocation we give them. Last year, the ratio in how funds directed at local authority level towards the old and new schemes was approximately 50:50. Next year, we expect a significant——

Chairman

Was that not this year's ratio?

Mr. Philip Nugent

Yes, 2008. In 2009, the ratio will be significantly weighted towards the new schemes, but some old schemes will remain to be flushed through the system.

Chairman

For a local authority, it would be beneficial to have people transfer to the new scheme because of the higher recoupment level.

Mr. Philip Nugent

I understand. On another issue, a tax clearance certificate can be a complicated burden. We did not want to insert this provision. Rather, it is a requirement set by the Department of Finance.

Chairman

Can Mr. Nugent run that by us again?

Mr. Philip Nugent

Requirements laid down in article 5 of the housing regulations 1980 were introduced in order to apply the Department of Finance tax clearance procedures to applicants for local authority housing loans and persons undertaking any work financed by such loans.

Chairman

What is the threshold for this requirement?

Mr. Philip Nugent

It is a requirement of the Department of Finance and applies to works above €10,000.

Chairman

Most housing aid for elderly people is below that amount.

Mr. Philip Nugent

They do not need to provide the tax clearance certificate.

Chairman

It is included in the application form, which refers to tax clearances and tax numbers. The forms are returned if the tax clearance is not provided.

Mr. Philip Nugent

The statutory requirement applies to work in excess of €10,000.

Chairman

That means that mobility housing grants for €6,000 do not require it. Mr. Nugent is stating that housing aid for older people up to a maximum of €10,000 does not require it.

Mr. Philip Nugent

That is correct.

Chairman

I know many people who have made many trips to provide tax certificates under both schemes. Am I right in saying that?

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

On a point of information, I find that if one photocopies the pension book——

Chairman

I used always do that.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

——and includes it with the application, one can operate on the basis that the grants officer or staff officer in the council will take a common sense approach. There is a macro issue here because applying for the old disabled person's grant was almost like a project management plan. One had to line up the occupational therapist, the doctor and the contractor with the C2 number. Maybe there is some way that the Department can engage in hand-holding, particularly for elderly applicants. The process is burdensome and some of the information is not relevant. There is inconsistency. In my experience, the application gets through once it gets to the local authority. I have problems with the occupational therapist, without which the application is going nowhere. It does not move off the grant officer's desk until the occupational therapist's report is included.

Mr. Philip Nugent

The sum of €10,000 is the threshold.

Chairman

It is good to clarify that.

Mr. Philip Nugent

It is also important to clarify the occupational therapist requirements. It is discretionary in most cases.

Chairman

Does Mr. Nugent have plans to meet housing officers or relevant officials for an annual meeting? The Department is ten months into a review. I do not refer to calling up one person from each province. In all areas covered by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, including housing lists, the Department sends out guidelines but there is a difference in approach in how these are implemented at local level. There is no point in having a national scheme unless there is reasonable consistency. That can only by achieved by eyeballing all relevant officers. Even if only one morning was spent on this once a year, it could be a valuable exercise and I recommend the Department does it.

Mr. Philip Nugent

I mentioned earlier that the format of the assessment has not been decided but we are committed to carrying out an independent assessment of the schemes after 12 months. That might provide the opportunity to bring the local authorities in.

Chairman

That independent assessment must meet some of the old people in their own homes and see how the process works for them.

Mr. Philip Nugent

In drafting the parameters and administrative arrangements of the new scheme, the Department consulted with local authorities and voluntary bodies. I am not sure if Age Action Ireland was involved. I can revert to the Chairman with some examples.

Chairman

Senator Bradford was referring to the same level of bureaucracy for most grants under €10,000. Mr. Nugent will send us information on approval of supplementary grants within the next day.

Mr. Philip Nugent

I will also send details of the interim arrangements for the hand-over between the special housing aid for the elderly scheme and the housing aid for older people scheme.

Chairman

We have had a useful discussion. We thank the witnesses for appearing. Members were quite interested in this because these are real, practical issues that affect people on the ground.

Do we need to invite a Minister on this issue? Should we discuss it specifically or deal with it during the Estimates?

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

When will we see the Estimates?

Chairman

I do not know when the Estimates will be published. The budget is in three weeks. We will have seen the Estimates at that stage and in a fortnight's time we will have a meeting with the Minister on other topics. We will decide what to do in light of the Estimates and keep our options open. We did not invite the Minister today because we wanted to have communication with officials on practicalities rather than a prepared speech from the Minister. From our point of view this is probably more practical. I hope the Minister will not give out to me for putting it this way. We were able to get into the nitty-gritty with the people involved on the front line.

I thank the officials for attending today's meeting. We appreciate their taking the time to do so. Nothing stated here was a criticism of officials. We have experienced frustration at local level and we used this opportunity to voice it. This is what democracy is about.